You Don't Need More Training, You Need More Peace | Mark Dowdle

I'm just going to figure out how far I can actually go when I'm up against the best competitors in the sport. >> The man, [music] the myth, the legend, Mark Dottore. >> Ultra endurance athlete based in Minnesota. >> He has qualified for Team USA at Big's Backyard Ultra. >> You're a gifted athlete, but this is really a mindset story. We all have a choice [music] to make. One story is saying you're not good enough, and then there's another narrative where every step that I take is evidence that who I say I am is who I actually am. The story that you want [music] to write is in your hands. >> People ask me what tip I have for them running their backyard ultra. It really is So, Mark, it's super cool to meet you in the aftermath or in the midst of the BPN Backyard Ultra, I was getting so many messages from people like you got to get Mark on the show. You got to get Mark on the show. And Dan Churchill like FaceTimed me and he just went on like a diatribe about like how awesome you are and and how you'd be such a good guest and I already knew that you would be and I'm delighted that you're here today, man. Thanks for making the trip. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. It's uh it's cool to hear. So, you cut a very different kind of like figure in in uh in the ultra running community. You're a big dude, first of all, and you played you're like one of those guys that was good at all sports in high school and in college. Football, lacrosse, All-American in lacrosse in high school. >> Yep. >> All-State in football. >> Yep. >> Played Division III football in college and lacrosse in college. >> Yep. >> But not track and field, not cross country. So, what happened? How did you get into running? What's the origin story there? >> Probably like most guys that come from my background, you hear David Goggins podcast and then you're just lit up. It was the spring of my senior year for a lacrosse. We had just done a road trip where we had played three games, lost two out of three games. I'm sitting in the back of the bus, throwing a pity party, moping about the direction of the season, how things are going to go, projecting all this negativity out into kind of the team, the energy. And my brother sent me the Joe Rogan David Goggins podcast where he talked about how, you know, he was running 100 miles on a track, 70 miles in, he's defecating down the back of his leg, he's pissing blood, and he gets back up with nothing but saltine crackers and and keeps running. And at that time, I was going through a lot of you know, trying to go through transformation from getting in trouble with alcohol multiple times in school and trying to figure out where my life was headed. And I saw this man transform his pain into something meaningful, like something with purpose, and and actually took action with it. And that is when I started like the first thing we did, I did when we got back to St. Paul at 2:00 in the morning was I went for a run. And then I started that process of just going out for a run at 4:00 in the morning because I was going to be the next David Goggins, you know. >> Who's going to carry the boats? >> and that [snorts] didn't last very long. [laughter] But it was this process of sort of an identity search once sports was over. And honestly, this podcast was extremely beneficial because when I got to a point after school, >> [snorts] >> I listened to James Lawrence >> Mhm. >> and then I watched his 50-50-50 >> of the documentary. >> And I was sat on the couch and I was like, "That is what I want to do with the rest of my life." And I didn't recognize this until years later where I had the opportunity to grab lunch with James that I understood why. And it's because when he asked me, "Mark, what do you think I do for a living?" I'm like, "Well, you you're you do these insane endurance feats. You you suffer." And he said, "My job is to give people hope." >> Mhm. >> And I remember as a 23-year-old kid sitting on the couch watching that documentary, that's exactly what it did for me. Is it gave me hope for a future where I could transform my pain into something meaningful. I could do it inwardly and outwardly. I could bring people along on this journey with me that could help them kind of confront the pain that they were going through as well. And the big thing that James had and has that someone like David Goggins doesn't or doesn't really show very often is the family. >> Mhm. >> Watching that 50-50-50 and watching all of his kids be there with him and going on this adventure and learning these life lessons and watching their dad struggle and then participating in it made me want that life. Um and I believe that I was capable of it. >> Mhm. But you mentioned pain. You're you said something about how you could see through James's example how you could uh be in relationship with your own pain. Like what was that pain? Like what are you referring to specifically? >> Yeah, I mean I I think for so much of my life I had chased the wrong things. Where in high school and maybe in a a little bit of of college, I was chasing acceptance from other people. And I was always trying to align my actions what what I perceived other people would like me to be. And this constant state of not knowing who I am or not really knowing how to where my place was in the social group just left me feeling so disconnected from myself. And when I got to college, I kind of made this conscious choice that like I'm going to do whatever it takes to be accepted by other people and that came in the form of yes, extreme drinking and and partying and being the best possible athlete I could be in terms of like outcomes. But that also came in form of like, "Hey, we're drunk and I'm going to let my friend shoot a blow dart at me from 10 ft away because I can endure pain." >> Right. And it gets attention. Some like jackass >> Exactly. And and that just landed me in situations where then I get in trouble with Pub Safe and there were moments where I had to make a decision to either stop blaming other people or the circumstance or the situation and and actually look inward like, "Maybe maybe I have a play in all this." >> Uh-huh. >> That's kind of what spiraled into me starting to have a journal practice, me getting into running. All these things kind of happened at the same time. And it felt like I was moving towards a different life, but also like running away from this version of myself that was constantly in chaos, constantly in situations that I just woke up the next day and was like, "What am I doing with my life? Why am I continuing to end up back in the same spot?" Um and running was a great way for me to kind of move forward through that. >> To process all of that. and that time alone, I think, is is important in trying to figure that those kinds of things out. I mean, it was for me, you know. >> So, for like football sense, I'd wake up after a night out with shame and regret, and I didn't know how to deal with those emotions. And so, I'd bottle them up, I'd push them down. And football was a great sport because I could have let those emotions bubble up, and then on Saturday, oh man, I can I can take that energy out and inflict that pain that I'm feeling internally on somebody else. And not only that, I was rewarded for that because that was my sole responsibility, not sole, but like as a defensive player, it was to make big plays and tackle and get the ball back, and you did that by confronting people head-on. And so, that was a cycle that I was in, and when I found running, I noticed that that whole or that weight in my chest, I'd come back from a run, and I wouldn't feel that anymore. >> Mhm. >> And that to me was a kind of that first instance where I didn't have to continue in that same cycle, I could find a new one. And also, there was this cool line of as I would run, and as I would move forward physically, I felt like I was able to process things emotionally in tangent with that thing. >> Mhm. >> And so, if I was dealing with an emotional situation, or I was dealing with identity, or I was dealing with something that I didn't want to feel, going for a run helped me process that in real time and feel like I was moving and walking with that as well. >> And you were developing a self-awareness of that as you were doing it? Like you were aware that this was, you know, kind of like a healing thing for you as you were continuing to explore it? >> Yeah, and and writing was probably the biggest thing that helped me recognize that because I was able to take time to then think and contemplate and reflect and actually write down what was going on. And I I brought some journals that I was reading on the way here. It's like it's so I'm so grateful that I did that because then I have this documented journey of what was going on internally for me at the time. And to see what I was processing and really how I was communicating with myself. Like when I first started writing, it was a lot of like "Stop doing this, you dumb idiot." Like really being negative to myself and having a negative voice in my head. And over time, there was a lot more grace, a lot more forgiveness, and a lot more recognizing that perfection isn't possible, but you can continue to make strides towards the life that I wanted to live. And I just you know, was able to document that and write that down and have that really sit in. >> There's a difference between leaning into running as like this mental health, you know, kind of component to your life and making the decision that you're going to push the envelope and see how far you can take it. Like what was it about running that made you Is it like a Goggins James Lawrence thing where you're just like I'm going to I'm going to walk in their footsteps and see how far I can go with this or why not just make it like this thing that you do an hour a day to ground yourself? >> Because I'm an ambitious person. I wouldn't necessarily say that I have an addictive personality, but I can get stuck on things. My dad has been sober for 28, 29 years. The embodiment of AA. I grew up listening to him on phone calls with people trying to get them help. He is like the most invested person in AA that I know. >> Wow. >> And so, hearing that all throughout my life, I sort of had that as an anchor point. And I genuinely listening to people on this podcast where there was a an Olympic athlete you had many, many years ago, but they talked about that life after winning gold was just lost for them. And seeing people like Ricky Gates and the people that were here, there was something that they had that I wanted, but it wasn't because of the outcome or the massive victories that they had. It wasn't because of the podium place that they were standing. It was because this deeper understanding of who they were, how they were impacting other people, how the choices and decisions that they were making was impacting positively the other aspects of their life. And I just I wanted that. I wanted that because for so long, I didn't have that. And I didn't know where to find it. And running was that small little insight of getting a taste of that. And you know, I I think maybe it's like oh, if I get it at this level, then if I do these big things, then I'll get it on a grander scale. >> Yeah. >> Which is true, but also it can lead down a dangerous path as well. >> I've been following your journey for a little while. It feels like you're having a bit of a moment right now as a result of the the BPN backyard race and then following that up in short shrift with the Midstate Mile race. Both of those races, at least in my information bubble, like we're just, you know, like my feed was just constantly being refreshed with more and more videos from those races and those videos seem to travel pretty far and wide and impact people that aren't like inside the ultra running bubble. Uh and I think it leads to this impression that you just arrived on the scene like you know like you Yeah, but you [laughter] you've been doing this for a while and even longer than I thought, you know, like I I I I knew it we're going to talk about like some stuff that you did in 2023, but when I went to like UltraSignup and like looked at what you've been >> Yeah. >> And as far as I can tell, you didn't really start running until like 2019. >> Yeah. >> But in 2020, you did in like a 2-week period, you did two 50Ks and a 50-miler. You got like on January 11th, you ran a 50K and got second. On January 25th, you ran another 50K and then on February 1st, you ran a 50-miler and got fifth. >> Yeah. >> And you're like 1 year into your running adventure and doing like those three races in literally like I don't know what is that, 16 days or something like that. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> I'd [snorts] run a marathon >> anonymously, you know what I mean? So it's like you're you're you're coming out hard. You know, years before anybody knows who you are. >> Yeah, and you know, if you run a marathon, you can do double that, right? You know, if you run a 50-mile That was my mindset at the time. A lot of what I did once, you know, 2020 hit, a lot of the stuff that I've done that has really transformed how I've run, why I run, and the what the manner in which I'm able to do what I am today, happened off UltraSignup. >> Mhm. >> You know, we did a handful of of charity runs for this nonprofit that we started called Love Like Lori Legacy. A teammate of mine from the football team, he's a good friend still today, Blake, his mom passed away from pancreatic cancer back in 2020. And so to raise money, awareness um for pancreatic cancer and pancreatic cancer research, we ran a series of Love Like Glory runs. You know, we raised over $100,000 over the course of three runs, 160 miles, then 266 miles, and 500 miles. And that is where I really learned what running meant to me because it revealed to me that we're all walking around with pain. And it could be emotional, it could be spiritual, it could be physical. And out there on the run, my pain was physical, but Blake's was an emotional and a spiritual. And I learned that when we walk together in that, when we share how we're feeling from a place of like truth, of really getting down and not running from the pain, not trying to bury it, but actually trying to get to the center of it and do it together, that we can see the light that's on the other end of the tunnel. Even if we're not there yet, we can recognize that it exists and we can move toward it. >> That's really beautifully put. Uh yeah, there's something about dancing at the edge of your capabilities, that you know, and being in that place where you can't run away from yourself and you have to confront your own personal truth and your pain. And when you're doing it with somebody else like that, that kind of like shared vulnerability is the connected tissue between human beings that ails the spiritual dilemma and the emotional pain that, you know, we all kind of compartmentalize and hide from. You know, it's like there's no escape, you know, when you're when you're in that place, and that's where you you discover yourself and you develop this thirst for self-understanding. >> Yeah, the mask comes off. Yeah. You can't pretend to be somebody in that moment. You are who you are. >> Mhm. >> And that's a beautiful thing about these, you know, the backyards or the long, you know, distance charity runs. It's like I got to know who I was in those moments. Now, translating that to the day-to-day life is is difficult because there's a a shelf life or a a short, you know, lifespan to that. But it's a a recognition of being able to pull something out of that experience and be like, okay. Um when I face my truest self, I'm not afraid of that person. Actually, I'm I'm okay meeting that person and meeting what that person has to tell me about where I'm currently at. >> Mhm. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp, which is why I'm going to cross my legs right now and lean back into my therapist posture. BetterHelp surveyed a couple thousand Americans this year and shockingly, 85% said getting [music] support is a wise thing to do, but 74% felt [music] like society still quietly discourages it. That gap is nuts. Like, we believe in the importance of getting help, while simultaneously being discouraged to seek [music] it out. Well, you do not have to wait for a crisis to talk to somebody. Therapy can just be a place to slow down and work through [music] what's been building up before it feels unmanageable. And BetterHelp makes all of that super easy with a starting [music] point that's an easy lift. You just answer a few questions, they handle the matching, >> [music] >> and you're connected with a fully licensed therapist who works under a strict code of conduct. [music] If the fit isn't right, you switch anytime. And with over 30,000 therapists, that's a lot, >> [music] >> it's served more than 6 million people. That's even more with a 4.9 out of five average from over 1.7 [music] million reviews. The point is, don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp, sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/richroll. That's better help dot [music] com slash rich roll. Element has been with this show for a very long time, but it has been really fun to watch them expand. First into sparkling cans, and now into something brand new, lemonade iced tea, which is now the newest addition [music] and my morning go-to in my home gym. And what I've noticed by incorporating this into my routine is a reduction in my coffee consumption. Something I confess to drinking more than I should, often because coffee does a pretty good job of quieting the signal that my body is tired. But, what actually supports energy at a foundational [music] level is hydration, replenishing your electrolytes. And by practicing this more consistently with Element, I've discovered a better and more [music] sustained degree of energy in my workouts, of course, but also over the course of the entire day. [music] Element is the electrolyte formula that has everything you need and nothing you don't. No additives or sugar, [music] and their new lemonade iced tea builds on that. Same electrolyte formula plus 50 mg [music] of naturally occurring caffeine from tea along with L-theanine and polyphenols. So, it feels smoother, [music] something more strategic than typical caffeinated drinks to reach for when you want to stay sharp. So, check it out. Try out Element's new lemonade iced tea. Get a free eight-count sample pack of Element's most popular [music] drink mix flavors with any purchase at drinkelement.com/richroll. [music] You really get to know your mattress in the summertime. Don't laugh, it's true. [music] The nights get warm, and if you're sleeping on a slab of synthetic foam, you're going to feel it. And [music] now I've been on a Birch mattress for about I think about 5 years at this point. And >> [music] >> I think the thing I noticed the most this time of year is that I just sleep cooler. It breathes, and that comes straight from what [music] it's built out of. Organic cotton, natural latex, real materials responsibly [music] sourced. Firm, yes, but also comfortable and >> [music] >> more importantly built to last. No polyurethane foams, no questionable off-gassing, which matters when you think about how much of your life you [music] actually spend on the darn thing. And they make it easy to find out for yourself. It ships [music] free, rolled up in a box, simple to set up. You get 120 nights to see how your body responds, all risk-free. >> [music] >> And they back every single mattress with a limited lifetime warranty. Because they own their own manufacturing and stand behind [music] the work, they can do that. Sleep is the foundation everything else is built on, and it's really worth getting it right. I want all my [music] listeners to enjoy a deep, restful night's sleep with the new mattress from Birch. Go to birchliving.com/richroll for 27% off sitewide. That's birchliving.com/richroll and get 27% [music] off sitewide. You've also done an amazing job in sharing all of that. Like, you're very transparent in how you communicate publicly around your relationship with your running and these races, etc. Like, you're a constant presence on Instagram and your YouTube channel, where you're not afraid to just talk about like, this is how it is, this is how it feels today, this is what I hope to do, here's where I failed, here's what I learned about myself, here's something about mindset that might be helpful to you. There's a service aspect, maybe that comes from your dad in AA or whatever, but you're always giving back. >> Mhm. I appreciate you recognizing that. I uh I don't have anything to hide. You know, in terms of what running has done for me or what I'm trying to get out of it. Like going into BPN, a lot of people were like asking, do you think you'll win? Or asking like outcome related questions. And I'm like, I'm just going to figure out how far I can actually go when I'm up against the best competitors in the sport. >> Mhm. >> And I listened to an interview and Kim, he was one of the four guys remaining. He was the co-winner last year. And him and I are good friends now. And he's sort of recanted and taken back what he said, but he was in an interview talking about how he was willing to die. He said he was willing to die to win that race. >> [laughter] >> This was before the race. And I just like >> to that before >> [laughter] >> before you did it. You're like, okay, well, you know, when push comes to shove and you're in it with him, if he's willing to die, like what am I going to do? >> Well, I kind of reject that. >> Uh-huh. >> No one's willing to die. When push comes to shove, I hope you're not willing to die for this game. It is a game at the end of the day. It is a It's a race and it's fun and we take it serious, but I do not find all of my value through running in a way that I'd be willing to literally die for an outcome that will not serve me going forward. And I think a lot of that has to do with support with my wife at home, the friends that I have. One of the most like people ask me now what tip I have for them running their backyard ultra. It really is find yourself a Lucy. And Lucy is my wife. And it is because when we're driving back from BPN and my social media is going crazy, you know, I'm got I got reached out by you, you know, and um I'm getting hit up by all these people and my agent's like, "Oh, you got all these brand opportunities now." She just says in that chaos, in that storm, "Mark, people will love you now for what you just did. And now you have a spotlight on you where they will love you more for what you will continue to do in the future. Just know that myself and your friends and the people that know you for you will always love you for that. There's nothing that you can do that will earn more of our love. >> [clears throat] >> And we will we want you to succeed. We want you to keep doing these things, but you don't have to do those things in order for us to love you. That is what I have in my corner. That is what I'm grounded by and it's a constant reminder of that and from her that allows me to not get wrapped up in the messaging of like, "I'm willing to die. I'm willing to go deep. I'm willing to search within myself." But I think the the intention is different. The intention is is not rooted in something that is going to lead me down a road where I'm I'm searching for identity again. >> It's not about earning love and acceptance. It's about a deeper connection with yourself. And that notion of like, "I'm willing to die." is is kind of reading between the lines, it's about winning. Like, that's what I have to do in order to beat somebody else. But, what you're saying is this is an internal journey and I'm trying to unlock my best performance, but it really doesn't have anything to do with anyone else. And, you know, win, lose, or fail, or whatever happens, I know who I am and I know that, you know, the people that I surround myself with are going to love me nonetheless. And it's Yes, maybe I'll get, you know, some external validation and attention, but you know, that's that's that's a transient kind of like thing and I can't control it and it's actually functionally meaningless. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Which is a very mature and healthy relationship to have with those sorts of things. >> Well, it's it's taken a lot to get there. I mean, college sports was focused on national championship or the season to failure. >> Mhm. >> You know, and so I was reflecting on this just recently of how having that intention even when I look back, I miss out on all of the ways I could have been a better leader or a someone who's just more invested into the experience because if we didn't win, therefore we weren't valuable, therefore I wasn't valuable as a person. And that therefore all the intention of the work and the people around me were focused on these external materialistic values that may not have led to the most successful outcome. As as like when I look back, it's like, how did you build people up? How did you take moments, maybe in the lunchroom or the cafeteria to learn more about a person to build a stronger relationship because that relationship will actually translate to the field in a way that you won't be able to write down in the stat book. And that is where I try and focus more of my attention on now is building some of those more emotional or spiritual things because that actually translates when it gets hard. >> And you were 19 years old. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's like, come on, you know, like you you be so give yourself a little bit of grace, you know. I want to read this thing that's on your website under under your bio. Instead of having a traditional bio where it's like, Mark Doutel is this person and he's done these races. It says, "At 3:00 a.m. on day three, Mark Doutel was hallucinating. His legs had stopped feeling like legs hours ago. His body was negotiating with his mind to quit. He watched elite athletes sit down one by one and not get back up. He kept going. Not because he felt good, because he needed to find out what he was actually capable of." And then it goes on to talk about, like, it's sort of a pitch for you as a speaker, but essentially, what you're saying is, uh, this really isn't about, like, needing to run 300 miles. Uh, it's it's about your capacity to manage yourself appropriately in extreme situations, which is a capacity not reserved for the elite or some kind of outlier, but is something that we all have, uh, the ability to do. And this is kind of what you talk about. Like, you're a big mindset guy. You're like, you're a personal development guy. Like, running is really an expression of the work that you have done on mindset and how you think about human potential. So, how do you articulate what that thesis is? >> No matter the circumstance that we're in, whether it's a physical endeavor like running or it is a situation at home with a relationship, we all have a choice to make about the story that we want to craft. I find this so fascinating during these backyard ultras is competing narratives in my mind of what I'm actually capable of. And on one hand, one story is saying, "You're not good enough. You're not worthy enough. You aren't able to finish this how you thought you could. You didn't do enough work. Every you know, you talk more than you actually are. You're not this person you think you are. And then there's another narrative where it is every step that I take, I create the story that I want to write. Every step that I take is evidence that who I say I am is who I actually am. The way that I feel right now is not the full truth. And at certain moments during the race, I can get hung up on one or the other. And yeah, I want to continue to try and create that narrative. But sometimes it's just submitting to the fact that you don't always have a choice in that. It's It's It's I mean, you have a choice to create that and create the evidence, but that doesn't mean it's going to lead you to the place that you want it to. Taking a step forward um allows you to create that that narrative. Mhm. >> We're all living out a story that we're telling ourselves about who we are. And I think most people can't uh distance themselves. They They They overly self-identify with that story, whether it's positive or negative. In every case, it's not factually correct, you know, it's a fictional narrative that was installed before our brains were fully formed based upon our upbringing and our experiences, et cetera. And it kind of gets locked in. And it's only when you take actions contrary to that narrative that you can begin to form a new one. And you have to uncouple your identity from that story as being one in the same. But it's a constant process because it's so entrenched. You know, if it's negative, it's like, "Oh, it's never going to work out." And you know, this is who I am. And because of this, like, this is how things always work out for me. And then you take an action that contradicts that, and you have to assemble those little pieces one by one like Legos in order to craft that new narrative. But that old one it remains. It's like an ongoing battle. >> Yeah, and I mean you say it frequently, mood follows action. And it's being willing to take those actions despite how you feel or despite the circumstance. And know that by taking those steps forward it it will lead to a better place. >> Mhm. Just for people who are listening or watching and and may not be familiar with like what this BPN race is and what Midstate is. BPN, which is Nick Bare's supplement company, they sponsor you, right? >> Yep. >> Was this the second year that he put on a backyard ultra on his like ranch in Texas? And for those that don't know, a backyard ultra is when you run a 4.2 mile loop on the hour every hour, and the competitors continue to do that until they can't make the time cut and they drop out until there's just two people left and you keep going until somebody can't make the 4.2 mile loop in the allotted time. These races have just skyrocketed in popularity. Uh I think beginning in the pandemic cuz those it was something that people could like do at home and share on social media. And it's become highly, highly competitive. And I just know for myself going into watching uh this BPN race this year, I was like, all right, well, Harvey Lewis is doing this race. Like >> [laughter] >> Like this is the this is the hybrid athlete, you know, like bro situation here. These guys are going to have to get absolutely shellacked by Harvey, you know, when they see like a guy who really knows how to do this. Uh what's the record that Harvey set going into that race? It's since been broken, but it's in the 400-mile range, isn't it? >> It's like 118. >> 118 loops. Yeah, so we're we're talking closing in on like 500 miles, you know, like just absolutely like mind-blowing. But, in the case of this race, Harvey ends up dropping out like before it came down to two people. Like, at what point did he pull out? >> The race went for 73 hours and I think it was maybe around 60 hours that him and Kim, the we were the final four, but those two guys dropped at the same loop. >> Uh-huh. You end up winning that race 306 miles in 73 hours. >> Yes. >> Is that right? Stunning victory. And then, shortly thereafter, you go do this race called Midstate Mile, which is a backyard ultra, but you're only running a 1-mile loop, correct? >> 1-mile loop every 20 minutes with 340 ft of elevation per loop. >> Mhm. >> That was >> And it's you and Harvey once again. >> Yeah. >> And what happens in this race? >> Harvey uh >> How many First of all, how long after the BPN race was this race? >> So, uh BPN was April 10th. This was June 20th. So, >> Okay, so you had a You had a decent amount. Okay. >> Yeah. And Harvey invited me to come to this race. And he which Harvey, we'll see what your intentions were for inviting me to this race. >> Uh yeah, with a with a twinkle in his eye and a smile like, "I want to pay back on this guy." I'm going to I'm going to get the best of this I'm going to get back. >> But, he he pitched it as, "Hey, Bigs has a lot of elevation. Um him and I will be teammates this year for Team USA." >> And that's in October, right? >> It's in October. >> That's like the like premier backyard ultra race. >> So, we'll be on a team of 15 for that, competing against like 70 other countries. But, he wanted to prepare along with me for that by doing this race. He'd always wanted to do this race, and he thought it would be great training and just fun to compete against each other. And so, we did it and it was brutal. I mean, average grade is 30%, gets up to 60% incline. >> 60%? >> Yeah. And it's two big climbs. >> Yeah, you if you if you lean back, you were stumbling back. Um Franklin, Tennessee. >> I didn't realize it had that kind of uh that kind of elevation gain. But, Harvey won. >> Harvey Yeah, so Harvey wins this race. Uh there's a video of him like sprinting [laughter] at the end. You're like, "What is going on with this guy?" It seems on paper, not knowing about that elevation aspect to it, that running a 1-mile >> Although, would be easier. >> Setting aside like the grade aspect of it, what is the difference doing a 4.2-mile loop versus a 1-mile loop? >> Rhythm and timing. Like, my greatest asset is having my wife Lucy there. She cooks all the food that I eat. And because we come back to a tent, there's a level of when I enter that tent, I sort of get to break down the walls and let her know genuinely how I'm feeling, and we can talk about that and it just be a place for us to come together. And in this, you don't have a tent to go back to. You are stuck in this corral where you have 3 by 3 space where you get a chair and a cooler, and you're next to all 114 other runners. >> Like a triathlon transition. Exactly. >> Yeah. >> And instead of having 8 minutes that feels like forever, you have maybe 3 minutes. >> Mhm. >> And because of the elevation, because I you know, I tend to like to take my time and and not overburn on on courses, I was coming in with like 30 seconds to a minute. >> Mhm. [clears throat] >> And it just wasn't enough time. And you can't sleep because of the limited time. They do a every 12 hours a 20-minute intermission, so you can sleep during that, but it's just so out of rhythm where you know, you sleep for 10 minutes and you eat for 5, but by the time you're getting back up, you're stiff because you've been down and you're out of that rhythm. And it was just the whole just your rhythm is off. That it just the format didn't create this very easy system where you could shut off your brain and you could take time. Like during the BPN race, when it was down to us four, I laid down belly first on the course. And I was able to have this 2-to-3-minute reflective moment where I sat and I said, you know, I want to quit. This is getting hard, but will the version of me 24 hours from now be able to honestly say that I gave everything I had in this race? And I could have that moment and it not cost me on time. And I could get back up and then keep going. If you do something like that at Midstate, or if you take a pee that's longer than, you know, a minute and a half, >> Mhm. You could time out. >> Mhm. >> And [clears throat] just to catch back up, you're hammering down these hills that have rocks and roots everywhere. And you know, one bad step or it's late at night and you're tired, you trip and you fall, you smash your face. And so I just think that that quickness, that up being being able to sleep >> It's like an interval workout, like a very, very long interval workout. >> feel your heart >> Also, you being a big dude, like you're at a disadvantage with that kind of elevation gain. It's going to It's going to beat you up more than it's going to beat up a guy like Harvey. >> I think my quads handled it better than Harvey's quads. >> Yeah, but you get you have a lot more muscle that can get fatigued, true, a lot more lactate build up. >> True. True. >> The most important resource we have is time, and we need to really understand how important that is, because most of us are wasting too much of it. What do you think, Andrew? >> Well, shoot, man, we just checked our screen time, and apparently I'm spending 6 and 1/2 hours a day staring at what Hasan Minhaj calls my rectangle of sadness. >> I'm embarrassed to say mine is even worse. This is a real problem. We need to begin to really value our time, and this is what the mission is behind Noble Mobile. Am I correct? >> Yes, Noble Mobile's the first wireless carrier that will actually pay you to use your phone less. There are billion-dollar companies that want to maximize engagement [music] to maximize their own revenue and profit, and who's benefiting from that? Them, not us. >> We can point our fingers at them, [music] we can blame them, or we can do something about it. >> Yes, Noble Mobile. Check us out at noblemobile.com. You can switch in 5 minutes, and it's only $10 for your first month if you use the code >> Rich Roll. >> That's right. Take back your time, your attention, and get that money. >> And they'll pay you for using your phone less. >> Yes, pay you to do the thing you know you want to do anyway. >> Yes, sir. Andrew Yang. This episode is brought to you by Go Brewing. Here's something I never saw coming. When I stopped drinking, and that was a long time ago now, the assumption was that you'd given something up, that you were on the outside of the party. >> [music] >> And now, the whole culture has shifted. More and more people are drinking less or not at all. Not because they have to, but because they just want to feel better. [music] And that shift created room for something that didn't really exist before. Non-alcoholic beer that is [music] actually good. Not a sad substitute, the real thing. And that's what Go Brewing is and why I got behind it as an investor. It was started by my friend Joe Chura in his garage. And these guys obsess over their [music] craft. The proof keeps stacking up. Gold and silver at the Best of Craft Beer Awards, more World Beer Cup medals than any other brewery, and a spot on the [music] New York Times best non-alcoholic beers of 2026. For the record, no added [music] sugars, no unnecessary processing, just real beer made with real intention. [music] They've got this awesome beer club that entitles you to exclusive releases you're not going to [music] find anywhere else shipped right to your door. So, here's what you're going to do. You're going to go to gobrewing.com/ritual50 [music] and there you're going to get 50% off your first subscription order >> [music] >> to Go Brewing's beer club. So, if I was to say ask you like, what is your superpower or strength or advantage in the backyard ultra context? Is it your strength? Is it your resilience because you're kind of born and raised in the Midwest and have tolerated terrible weather conditions or yeah? >> I do genuinely believe that the strength that I have is not a running per se, it's not necessarily a strength per se. It is that I'm committed to this mission of finding out what I'm capable of and my heart and my spirit are way more leading the charge than anything else. >> Mhm. >> Um because during Midstate Mile there came a moment we ended at 10:00 a.m. Monday morning, but by midnight I knew I wasn't going to beat Harvey. Like I I just knew it. He was looking way too strong. He had gone through one low point and then popped back out of it and was looking great, and I was just banged up. And I just made a decision there. I was like, I don't care if I don't win this thing. I need to know. I need to know that I gave everything I had out here. And for 10 hours I was able to do that, knowing that the outcome was entirely removed, knowing that you know, the outcome that I wanted to happen there wasn't going to happen. And all throughout that day my mind was looking for an out. My mind was looking for an opportunity to stop. I even was like hoping and praying that I would just eat it going down the hill at night so that I could have some other excuse than quitting. But it is and I think get this from my mom, this relentless will to not give up on something. Like my mom is the type of person where if I lose this wristband in this room, she will fly out here and she will not leave until she finds it. And she will find it. What is that about? >> I don't [laughter] know. >> This is just This is baked into your genetic code. >> Yeah. >> What is the practice of that? Like how do you Do you have Like you talked about journaling, but are there things that you do to get yourself primed and in that mindset so that you can weather those low moments, those difficult trying moments when every everything inside of you is telling you to quit? >> I mean, my faith is a big is a big piece of that. >> Has that always been consistent in your life or is this something that Yeah, talk about that. >> No. You know, grew up in the Catholic household, went to a Jesuit university, went to Catholic university, but never was like so sick of hearing it from my dad. So sick of hearing it. After I went through this phase of chasing happiness, I replaced that with a chasing achievement because I thought that if I do these big events, these big races, these big challenges, people that I respect and admire in the sport, then they'll respect me, and then I will have achieved something meaningful to my life. >> You'll feel whole. You'll feel whole. >> Yeah. And you know, I did this year-long calendar club where part of the intention going into that was to see what I was capable of. But there was also this intention that if I did it, I would gain social media attention, I would gain sponsorships, I would gain admiration from other people. And 7 8 months into the challenge, none of it happened. And I was listening to Sally McRae talk about on a podcast where she finds strength in those moments in her 200-mile races where she was reminded that she's made in the image of God. And something about that just stirred my spirit in a way of like, I've tried everything to feel whole. And I have never found it. And maybe this is a place where I haven't yet searched because I have been taught it by my parents for so long where I just I don't want anything to do with it, or I just never actually took the time to take a genuine step of faith, not from a a religious background, but from like a genuine step of maybe this is something that I should seek out. >> Mhm. >> And from then, I was able to actually separate myself from running as an identity, running as a way of making money, or you know, growing an audience or creating an impact and recognize that if it gets taken away from me tomorrow or today, God forbid, it will be hard. It will be very hard and there will be a a time of mourning for that, but I will be okay. Because the strength that I have comes from a foundation of faith, but it also comes from having a strong will and a strong spirit. And I look at a guy like Mike Egan, who was at the BPN race, who was in a wheelchair. >> Right. >> Who I mean that is talk about it is like an incredible story. >> That is the embodiment and I've texted him about this. I'm like, I I see more in common with you than I do a lot of other runners because when you're watching a man drag his wheelchair doing whatever it takes even when the loop time had passed, he even if he finished that loop, he couldn't continue on, but he was he he had a will and a desire to just see what was the limit. No no race win, no amount of money, no amount of people following your story will give you what that can give you, the peace that that can give you. And you can only find that by you doing the work to get there. Nobody can give that to you. And so I find a lot of strength in recognizing that there's something deeper about what I am doing that these external material things can't provide to me. >> How old are you? >> 29. >> Yeah, like you dude, you're so you when I was 29, it's an absolute disaster. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Like you're just at the beginning of you know, I can see the amazing life ahead of you to have that grounded, you know, sense of meaning in your life where everything is in its proper place. Like you're just set up for the right kind of life. You know, it's really beautiful. >> Thank you. >> The guy in the wheelchair, oh my god. >> Mike. >> Like he's it's like it's covered in mud. You can't even turn these wheels and he was out there like doing like doing a backyard ultra in the mud in a wheelchair. >> Isn't it? >> Like I've never seen anything like that. >> When we rolled up, I this is not a great thing to admit, but I just thought he was out there because it would be a nice little publicity thing. Like there's no way somebody can do this course for more than a few loops. And I didn't know much about him going into the race. But then I saw and I was like, okay, this makes a lot of sense. >> Mhm. Meaning like what is it about that guy? Like who I don't know anything about him. >> He is a he's a veteran. Um he the his legs it he was he stepped on a landmine? >> IED. >> You know, he went through tons of surgeries and um he got to this point. Um he shared his story on a podcast recently and we listened to it on our drive to midstate, but what I see in that man is somebody who has a relentless will to not let his circumstance define him. And that to me is those are the people that inspire me as people who don't allow whatever they're going through to define who they are. And it goes back to what we talked earlier. It's like he is the one that's creating the story that he wants to live by. And that to me is powerful. That to me is empowerment. That speaks to to people more about how they can change their circumstance and take ownership in their life than winning a backyard ultra. Maybe the the ways in which I've gotten there or the ways in which Harvey got there speak to it, but it's not the win. It is what you're willing to do despite the win. >> When I was up at Trail Can, uh uh, the other week, there were all these panels going on and one of the like a recurring topic of conversation is the future of ultra running, the change the changes that we're seeing. We're seeing money coming in. We're seeing so many, you know, new people coming into this sport in various, you know, capacities and there's a lot of like concern and hand-wringing amongst the OGs of what is this going to do to this culture, the subculture that we care about so much. Uh, and, you know, how are we going to make sure that we protect what's great about this sport when all of these other influences are now, you know, coming in. And I would imagine that that like what Nick Bare is doing with BPN is is you know, for that old guard is somewhat like a ruffling of the feathers because he doesn't he's not the the picture of the ultra He's not like the guy with the mustache living in a van down by the river. You know what I mean? He's doing something very different. And what I find interesting about this is that the new people coming in are in charge of determining what this culture is and there can be many cultures that can coexist. And this is a guy who, uh, is introducing this world to a whole different kind of community or cohort of people and athletes. And because he's so good at the content and filmmaking piece, he's able to create stories that resonate with people and are magnetizing people who otherwise might not ever even consider this sport to start signing up for these things, which I think is, you know, that's a net positive overall, uh, but it is interesting the cultural shifts that we're seeing happening right now. >> Yeah, and I think that's that's just going to happen. Um, I look at a guy who is really doing this well and it's Harvey. Where he's a older guy in the sport. He's still competing at a high level. But he has adapted tremendously well of putting himself >> He can pop into any community and he'll proudly wear his vegan stuff, you know. It's like he just dropped into the, you know, go one more red hat wearing like world of like bros and hybrid athletes and he's just his skinny happy self with his, you know, vegan with his vegan attire on, you know, and everybody loves him because he's just oozing positivity and love for everybody that he meets. >> Yeah, and I think with the the new age, I mean, I'm a product of people like Harvey, people like yourself, people like Ricky Gates and Robbie Bellinger. Like I'm a product of listening to the those people. So, I stand on the shoulders of giants type of thing. But, I'm also a part of this new age of coming from untraditional sport background and using social media in a way that maybe some other people didn't have access to or I'm very much fit, you know, in in a lot of ways the BPN type of person. >> player football player. >> What that does though is the amount of people that then signed up for their first Backyard because of what they watched during BPN. I'm getting like hundreds of DMs about that. And I think what that does is it allows people to get more invested in the sport where then they can look at a guy like Harvey where they might not get pushed his content because they're looking for maybe gym bro content. But, now they're starting to understand somebody like Harvey or like Phil Gore or some of these really OG people in the sport and that helps them as well. >> Yeah. >> So, I think it all bubbles up to help everybody. But, it's I think somebody like Harvey who's embracing that change and putting himself in the center of that and Dude, he's bringing us along on this journey of his as well. >> Sure. >> He is really the face of the sport. And he's grown the sport and he loves it and protects it and there's a sense where when somebody has that much investment in it, I want to honor them and respect that. And he's willing to bring us along on that journey. >> What you did in 2024, I think it might be the most interesting thing that you've done. >> What's that? >> Which is uh this 475 miles worth of running to arrive in Ontario for the Beer Mile World Classic. So, basically you at some point you get enamored with this beer mile thing. >> Yep. >> And you're like, this is my jam. >> Yep. >> Uh but, instead of just showing up to the Beer Mile World Classic to participate in the amateur category or whatever it was, you decide that you're going to run there. So, you run from Chicago to Milwaukee, then you catch a ferry across Lake Michigan. >> Mhm. >> And then you start basically running from college to college across Michigan, like running beer miles with like lacrosse athletes or something like that. To eventually 475 miles later arrive in Windsor, Ontario for this Beer Mile Championship. And then >> what happens? >> Uh just competition at that point. >> I mean, it >> [laughter] >> See, the what you do, you end up getting second, right? In this race in the amateur category. You run like 5:51 or something like that. >> enough. >> do it in like this like pink and [laughter] purple like button-down >> shirt. Yeah. >> Um So, this is pre-backyard ultra, but you're you must be thinking at the time like I'm the I'm going to be the beer mile guy. >> I still am the beer mile guy. That is the thing most people know me for is you're the beer mile guy, right? >> still know you as that guy. >> Yeah, a little bit more now cuz of the BPN thing, but man, it is the beer mile happened because uh during calendar club, a way to sort of celebrate the end of the month and the beginning of a new month was to invite people to do a beer mile. And I got pretty good at them. And I liked the competition aspect where it's like this really quick thing. And then I you know, that content was doing well online, so I tried to lean into it and see what I could make of it, which turned into beat my beer mile where I'd race college athletes. >> Yeah, you have a bunch of video Yeah, like you show up like you get the football team and they run a mile and the challenge is they have to go faster than your beer mile. >> Yes. And if I pass them, they >> can't. [laughter] >> Yes. >> Here's what BPN should be doing. They should combine these two things and make the backyard ultra they should add the beer into it. So after every lap you have to drink a beer and that would completely change the whole thing. Like how long could you go? How many beers? [laughter] >> I would not last very >> Harvey's not I don't know, man. I think maybe you're made for it, you know? >> Well, I >> I think you would definitely put Harvey into the into the grave on that one. >> got Harvey on that one, but Harvey, let's do that one. Yeah. I mean, part of it to sparked as I coached one year football after college because I thought I wanted to be a football coach because I didn't want to work a typical 9-5. And I learned very quickly through that experience that there's a difference between loving football and loving to play football and I did not love the sport. And I wanted to be a coach in large part because I wanted to counsel young men that I now on the other side had better tools to deal with the emotional and the you know, social problems that I dealt with very poorly in college. And I would just there was no time for that in football. It was strictly football. And over the course of doing the beer miles, I transitioned to more NA beer because I just it wasn't about the alcohol. >> Yeah. >> And going to these college football teams and getting them excited about this weird quirky race that they were being put out of their comfort zone and then being able to sit and talk to them about their experience. That to me drew me closer to being able to have an impact that I wanted in football. And the you know, the run to Windsor was because I'd look at a guy like Ricky Gates and I saw his Trans Americana and like that, dude, I get tears watching that YouTube video. It is the thing I recommend to anybody who is interested in learning about ultra running and running and what it means to like to me what it means to get to the core and the essence of it. And so that to me was like, I'm quitting my job and I'm going to run home to my house in in Chicago, Illinois and then I'm going to run to Windsor and I'm going to have my own Ricky Gates experience. >> Meaning uh you're going to go get like a stroller or a push cart and do it Ricky Gates style. >> Yes, sleep in parks, find a random spot. >> Yeah. You mentioned uh your interest in in coaching football stemming from this desire to be a helpful voice for young men and I feel like that is that's the spirit and the sensibility in which you kind of show up on social media. Like it's always positive mindset oriented. It's never like look what I did or anything like that. Like I feel like you're fulfilling whatever it is inside you that wants to be that mentor and that coach at least digitally in the way that you um acquit yourself on social media. >> That's what I hope. I think it's always uh it's affirming or reaffirming to get feedback. You know, that some of the DMs I've gotten is is incredible. And I'm just so appreciative that people are taking that message and then taking action in their life. You know, when that one of the months of the calendar club challenge, I had encouraged people to come out and I would help set their new distance PR. And one of my buddies, Landon, he came out and he did 13 miles. >> Mhm. >> And a guy from his hometown had seen him do that and decided to sign up for his first half marathon. And only because he had seen Landon do that. And to me it was this opportunity to see how what I was doing was rippling out into this friend that I had. And because he had taken action on on a belief um it had caused an a ripple effect out. And that's only possible if people take action. That's only possible if like I don't want to create a bunch of couch supporters or people that are just there to cheer me on. I genuinely want people to take the lessons that I'm learning and apply them to their own life in the ways that I was able to do and still continuing to do and learning from guys like Harvey and I want that for other people. And I think what the thing that I do that embodies this most that I get to witness this is the running plunge stuff we do. Because in real time it is watching people do something that they never thought they could possibly do, let alone run 5 miles. Like most of these people showing up aren't runners. >> Mhm. >> And then you get to see them transform it. And then the next week you see them bring back a friend. And they're inviting people into this experience. And I think so many people watching this or listening to this, you have that ability to impact somebody in a way that gets them excited to show up more in their own life. And if if if nothing else gets taken away from what I have to say, it is that like what you do matters, how you treat people, how you impact people matters, and it starts by you showing up and demonstrating that in your life so that people can say if you can do it, I can do it, too. >> You're a change agent. You're a change agent masquerading as an ultra runner. You know what I mean? Like that's the real mission that you're on, I think. >> Yeah. >> And running is a vehicle for expressing that that idea. But you're trying to get people to wake up and transform their lives. When you're out running your Calendar Club training plan, do you have like threshold days or tempo days, or is it all just zone two, you know, in your mind or whatever, like whatever's pace you can sustain for that distance? >> Yeah, it's like 12 and 1/2 minute mile. >> Uh-huh. >> And it's stopping at a grocery store to get some donuts or something. >> And that's that's it. >> [laughter] >> There's no threshold that, you know, there's no There's no need for you to run fast ever. >> Ever. >> Yeah. >> Ever. So it's it's really more you know, the running has I've built that foundation in that year-long Calendar Club, I really built that foundation. Um but to me, what gets affected more in the backyard ultra are those moments where I have that identity of who am I. And so, to me, it's trying to find ways to do that more in my own life. Like, I've said this before, but I don't get to decide if I'm a good husband. My wife gets to decide that. I don't get to decide if I'm a good friend. My friends decide that. And so, it's that constant communication and relationship with am I showing up with the fullness to which I need to show up in the places that I need to, or am I just thinking that I am, or telling myself I am, or stroking my ego enough to tell that story in mind. And if there's any disconnect in what is reality versus what is like a self-belief, then that is what will show up for me 70 hours into a backyard ultra. Mhm. And so, as much as the running and the strength training and all of that is are good work towards becoming a better athlete, I I really lean on trying to be the highest of character person I can be. >> How is this relationship with running contributing to you being a better human as opposed to an ego-obsessed, performance-optimizing maniac? >> Great question, [laughter] Rich. >> No, I mean, that's that's the question you're asking. >> Yeah, like this is this is there's a difference between being able to put in a good performance at a crazy race like that, and somebody who's looking at that as a means by which to become a better human being. >> Yeah. Early on in my journals, it was me trying to create evidence to build courage and confidence, because I didn't have that as I had that belief, but I didn't have that as the reality. >> Mhm. >> And now that I have a lot of the accolades or the things that that person, that younger kid would have knew in his heart, but couldn't actually show anyone or even himself. Now it is a constant trying to go inward and remain grounded and humble because now on the other side, there all of those things can can get wrapped up and swirled and taken me in a direction that I don't want to go in or get wrapped up in things that um aren't at the core of what I do. And I think having a strong wife and keeping me grounded in that way has been the biggest blessing that I could ever ask for because she really keeps me rooted in the things that ultimately matter. And you know, it's a funny instance where at midstate um I was 24, 30 hours in and I waved off one of our helpers or you know, our crew guys, Cody. And she was like, Mark, mind your manners. These people are here helping you. >> [laughter] >> And I'm like, okay, I'm sorry. So it's just like it is this I have these good people in my corner that don't care about that, don't want me to get wrapped up in that. And I think that that has helped me in ways that um I'm so blessed for. >> Mhm. What is the message to the person who's stuck? It's similar to the question I asked you before, but if you were to like look directly into the camera and deliver the football coach speech to the young man who's on the couch and can't get off YouTube, likes your videos, maybe even watched the BPN live stream and is inspired by that, but is struggling to connect the dots, translating inspiration into contrary action. I think it is trying to bring the awareness to the disconnect that you feel with yourself is because of a lack of action. Like, it all comes back to what you are either doing or not doing to bring yourself closer to this belief that you have because if they feel stuck, that means that they feel like they should be somewhere else that they're not. And the only way to get there is by taking a step forward. That's the only way that I get through the Backyard Ultras. That's the only way that I get through any of the hard moments in my life have been taking the next possible step forward and then taking it. And then not being so focused on the outcome or focused on the result of that, but just appreciating the fact that you took one step, and you can look back and see that you are now farther along in the journey to becoming closer to the person that you want to be. >> Mhm. >> It's about the step that you can take in the moment that you find yourself in. It's not about running in the cold to the Mississippi River and taking a sledgehammer to the river to jump into the You know, like, I think people think, "Well, I'm not really doing anything unless I'm doing something like that. >> Mhm. >> It's not going to matter whether I get up and walk around the block or decide to put my phone down for an hour." But those really are the levers of change. Each tiny little thing that you do engenders you with a little bit more self-esteem than you had prior. And it's about building ever so gradually on top of those things. People don't realize you've been out crushing ultras for like 7 years now. Like, you've been run you You put a You put 7 years into being able to do what you've done this past year and to set yourself up for the races that you're going to be participating in this year. It didn't happen overnight. And yeah, you were a football player and a lacrosse player and you had some experience with being an athlete, but you weren't a runner and you went into this unknown world and you went all in, but you know, it started with that first jog when you were confused and your identity as an athlete was being challenged and you were trying to figure out who you were or who you were going to be in the aftermath of that college experience. >> Yeah, the podcast with Rachel I think she you guys touched on how it was one decision, very similar to mine, of going out for this run and then you you now have this understanding of what potential you have and what you can have in the future. And one small decision made many, many times opened up the door for this incredible [snorts] experience for her to win this race and inspire so many people, but that only happened because she took that first step. >> Mhm. >> There's so much potential in anybody's life, the person listening to this that you will never experience if you just sit and do nothing. And nobody else can do that for you. Nobody else can want that enough for you. You either have to be in fear or hate your situation so much that you're willing to change or you have to want that outcome or that that journey or that person that you want to be to become a reality so bad that you're going to do anything to make it happen. >> Mhm. >> But it all like the mountain top is one step. The journey I've been on took one step. One run and building upon that and it took 7 years. And I'm still not done. You know, I'm still on this journey. The it's still the same process. But now it's it that momentum has built. >> When I think about your story, I think you are a beautiful embodiment of what I call the holy trinity of change. To change, you have to do things. It's about doing. It's about action, contrary action, consistency, momentum, all of these very kind of like tactile, practical, actionable like things that you have to do to move your life forward in a different trajectory. But there are also a bunch of things that you then have to undo. Like if you just keep doing, eventually you're going to be running in place unless you look in the rearview mirror and start to untangle like a bunch of knots about your story and why you are the way you are. Otherwise, you're just going to you're going to trip yourself up at some point. You're going to plateau. So you have to be able to have the courage to do that part of of change, I think. And then the third the third piece is being. Like you have to be able to be present at some point. You have to be able to um show up conscious enough so that you can enjoy this experience that you are having so that you can return it to other people as an act of service. Cuz if you're not present and you're always caught up in the next thing or what happened the day before, you're missing your entire life and you're missing the gift that you've been given that you are in the position to then pass on. And I see you kind of firing on all cylinders with respect to that. As And And And being such a young person, like that's truly inspiring, man. >> Thank you. The thing I've been most proud of that has helped a lot of saying yes to a future ahead. You know, there was a a time when I was on a work trip in the van in Texas and I went back to a stadium that I played in a national quarter final game junior in college. We lost that game. I was distraught after that game. And years later I went back and I sat in that stadium and I just watched myself. And I watched this kid who was getting in all sorts of trouble, dealing with all this emotional burden and and not knowing how to deal with it and walking around surrounded by people but feeling entirely lonely. And now 3 years later I was able to forgive that person. I was able to look at that person and understand that the reality of the situation that he is in is not the full truth because I'm sitting here today and I get to see where the life has has led to from that decision and from the decisions that followed and that to me of like sitting in reflection and recognizing that like this goes back again like the story that you have that you want to write is in your hands. And I truly believe that no matter what situation or circumstance somebody is in, they have the ability to make that change. And if they decide to do it, they're going to bring other people along with them because people just they're drawn to that. When people decide to say enough is enough, I want to move in a different way, there's going to be some friction I'm sure but there's also going to be people that have been waiting to be given permission to do that in their own life. You can be that person to somebody else and you don't have to do 500 miles or 300 miles at a backyard. You don't have to run to the Beer Mile World Classic in order to do that. You just have to take whatever is whatever you're running from right now, whatever your fear you are afraid to face. When you face that, you will inspire somebody else in your life to do that as well. >> The AA version of that is the person who has 7 days of sobriety is going to have a larger impact on the person who just walked in the door who has zero days than the person who has 28 years. That's an alien to that person. Just like Harvey Lewis or you is going to be an alien to somebody who's never run a mile. But if you've never run a mile and you run 1 mile, then you are a source of inspiration for that person who can't get off the couch. Which means we all have the capacity to inspire and uplift the people around us. >> And everybody on that journey is as important to the impact of the continuum of that. >> Yeah. >> We need everybody along that path. You need the person to run 1 mile. You need that five like everybody What is hard to you is hard to you. It is not different than what's hard to me. It's just a different experience because of the years of which I've been doing this. >> Yeah. >> But somebody's 5K is as hard as running 306 miles is for me. And you need to step into that. >> Beautiful, man. I think that's a that's a great place to end it for today. >> Amazing. >> You're amazing, dude. I'm such a fan and I feel like you're just at the beginning of this amazing career and adventure and you have so much to give. That's your gift and that is your superpower. Running is just one way of giving you a platform to express that. But when the day comes and ultra running isn't what you're doing anymore, it feels like you're going to transition this into some other way of continuing to carry this message, which is which transcends like the sport of ultra running. And it's it's a privilege and an honor to spend time with you, dude. Thank you. >> Thank you for having me on. Right on, dude. Seriously. Right on. Peace.