The Good Ol’ Days Were Way Worse - Fin Taylor & Horatio Gould

You are historians now. Congratulations. >> Big pivot. >> Yeah. Hard pivot >> into academia. >> I mean, this is what the manosphere has come to. >> Yeah. >> If you're speaking to historians, you you'll get us on to talk. It doesn't matter. >> We can say what we want and people be like, "What?" Really? >> Podcasts that need academic guests. They use all of them. >> This is how low the barrel is that I'm scraping. >> This is how your business model works is once you've had whatever, what's his name? Graeme. >> Graeme. >> You've had him on four times. Grab. You have to get you have to get a new guys. >> The legitimacy has declined so much that it's got to you guys. [laughter] >> Yeah, I agree. >> Yeah, it's not clicky enough. Graeme Hanok is just not it's >> Yeah, people are used to it. They get these guys. >> They need someone who's really pushing the boundaries. >> Have you been any more capable of predicting the future now with all of your illustrious studying of the past? Has it given you any insights about what's going on in the modern world? >> It's made me calmer about it. >> Yeah, >> it's just always [ __ ] >> That's true. That's a history for me has always been quite like a soothing thing. It's been a lot worse and it was going to carry on being like this and >> ASMR >> because people keep saying like you know back in the day back what do you mean back in the day? >> Yeah, >> it was awful. It was awful for >> this. This is the best it's ever been. >> The ' 90s was slightly better. >> But yeah, there was four years. >> It's human's gone like this. It's gone like this and now it's like that. >> No, I reckon it went like that and then it was like in between Diana and 9/11 and then it's just been like that. >> Yeah, exactly. It's been going down but people is it is still like step back. It's it's unreal. Coffee is coffee. >> I mean, not newtonic. >> Look at you don't have this in the middle ages. People didn't even have that 10 years ago. [laughter] >> We're living in the Newtonic age. >> This is this is the Newtonic [laughter] age. Replace this for anyone listening. >> That that is true. That is very true indeed. No, it's an interesting one. I think the the fact that both America and maybe the UK as well had such a little golden era ' 80s '90sish where everybody felt like living standards stuff's getting better. >> End of history. >> Yeah. >> And but just that you have this felt pullback >> from then until now, >> but you had probably steady incline. Careful doing that. >> Yeah, we're on the wrong set. [laughter] >> Steady inline kind of up until then. So when you compare when you compare us between that I think everyone looks at the golden era that parents had and thinks oh well wouldn't it have been lovely to have grown up in the 80s and the 90s. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think it's before social media and stuff and I guess that there's just a little sweet spot. But I guess if you just do history a lot you just look at it much broader and so you just view it you take a much bigger step back and it's just like Yeah. You know. >> Yeah. I mean like we're more likely to die naturally now. Yeah. Than ever before. >> What do you mean? >> Well as in like not die. I mean I mean obviously there are people in your orbit who don't want to die and that's the new that's the new frontier to conquer. >> People won't die. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Good on them. [clears throat] >> They refuse to get off the >> I'm I'm I'm looking forward to it. Frankly, [laughter] I would like to die at some point. >> It's not before my time, but I do think there's a time to die. >> There's a time and a place for >> it's a time and a place. >> Um but it's in but norm the amount the way you would die up until about 100 years ago was probably very bad compared to now. We just did a Japan series and they suicide. They love committing suicide. Sapuku ritually and it's because it's like life so rubbish. You just want to do something big and then kill yourself is like a brilliant life. >> The best thing about your life would be the committing suicide. Yeah. In in 16th century Japan. >> Yeah. >> What caused them to do that? There had to be an incident that >> they didn't have modern wisdom to listen to to help with their mental health. That's >> true. There was a severe lack of mental health problem. >> Get them up at 4:30 a.m. >> So young young Japanese men were committing sapuku on mass >> and it would be the slightest faux part. [laughter] You'd fart at the dinner table. I can't live with this. >> But was it was everywhere? >> Was it some kind of like weird honor culture? >> Yeah, it was still like that. But yeah, they absolutely [ __ ] loved it cuz I thought it was just like a racist trope. But when we went and studied it for the these episodes, you can't believe everyone ends with sapuku. Yeah. And if they don't, I'm immediately thinking like, well, you're that's a bit dishonorable. >> Yeah. Their death is treated as suspicious if it's not suic. >> Yeah, exactly. [laughter] Yeah. >> Suspicious circumstances. He didn't seem to do it himself. [laughter] >> What um what made Japan such an odd country cuz even now it's about as close to kind of an alien planet as you can get to, I suppose. >> Well, it's an autistic culture, right? Culturally on the autism spectrum. >> It's up there with Scotland. Yeah. >> Scotland. Yeah. Uh, Germany, that's an autistic culture. Uh, I think Japan >> it shut its doors for 300 years and had no internal wars, which is very rare in history. >> It was playing World of Warcraft in the basement for a thousand years. >> And what does that cause if you shut the doors for 300 years? >> It's like um >> I don't know. It's like homeschooled kids. >> Yeah. >> Oh, is this weird? Oh, yeah. We [ __ ] with the door open, right? There's no there's no outside influence or it's very moderated and then they that's why they're so they never they were never colonized but they always took stuff and made it Japanese >> which is why like >> we put a squid in. [ __ ] it. No, that's not >> Yeah, that actually we did find that the first octopus porn was in like the >> 1800s. Yeah. >> Like a wood carved octopus porn because they had obscenity laws about showing. So the the blurring blurred porn that's been going on for a while. to get around obscenity laws but to still get the rocks off they'd show they'd carve someone would carve it that's [ __ ] their job carve >> quite beautifully carved >> beautiful octopus [ __ ] a woman >> octopusy >> in 18 whatever 1840 or something >> okay don't they have those hand job on TV things I've seen that >> this so Japan Japanese TV has these weird like I don't know competitions where girls hand competition milking competitions on TV. >> Oh, maybe it's not. Well, it's certainly >> Maybe it's on Pornhart. I don't know if that's >> Honestly, I'm not kidding. I I feel like this has been the prime minister side of >> X-rated prime minister. >> Whoever comes last becomes prime minister. Yeah. >> Yeah. Like the most diplomatic game of soggy biscuit ever. >> High stakes soggy biscuit. Yeah. >> Elite level. >> Okay. So, Japan closes its doors for a long time and becomes weird. That's basically how you make a culture odd. >> I wouldn't say it's odd. It's just unique. very unique culture, very distinct in a way that other cultures much more. >> Yeah, it's it's very uh selectively globalized, right? >> Most uh cultures don't get to choose how they get globalized, right? >> It's just this kind of permeable wall and it just blends all together. Japan is like >> we'll take that, we won't take that. So, it's like very structured how their their cultures developed. >> Does that play does that sapuku uh heritage play into kamicazi stuff when it comes to That is that that's just the technical. >> Who wants to kill themselves? >> Me, please. >> Yeah. It's the easiest to find. His grandad did >> and everyone's like so jealous when it's like he gets to [ __ ] fly doing what he loved. >> But there's a whole thing about you their their belief system. It's like Shinto and Confucianism and Buddhism. of it where all of it is like >> it's so detached from the everyday life is so you're such an observer of your own life that killing yourself for a greater cause >> is like to our heads >> acceptable whereas with the west we're like the individual the freedom life that's the most important thing >> but the Japanese is honor >> and it's wearing no shoes in the house >> and your life is subservient to wearing not wearing shoes in the house >> they're But that that leads to what we would call the night night bomb which is the the night night. The big bang go to bedaki night >> night. Yeah night night. It's nagasaki. [laughter] >> That leads to a culture where you just will not surrender because you're you know you're so you're so Buddhist, you're so detached from your own life. You're so in the moment. You're so mental health perfect score that >> you just will kill yourself because you're above it almost. He does sound like modern wisdom business. I don't want to >> but you know that Japanese soldier was found on that island in 1974. >> Still still fighting the war. So in one of the islands in the Pacific, I think he got stranded during uh World War II and they found him in 1976, I think. Yeah. >> And he was like he still came out and he was still with >> still. He thought the war was going on. That's how [ __ ] mental they are. But God love him. >> God love him. >> God love him. What was the name of the uh operation where America thought we're going to have to do a land invasion if the atomic bombs don't work and they were getting ready and they had a million body bags. They were ready for the >> Well, that's one of the reasons one in the deciding to use it. One of the I can't remember the name of the operation, but they were basically and I don't know how you'd ever actually do this. They were tallying up the potential deaths from the nightlight bomb and the potential deaths from a land invasion >> of American souls >> of and they they said that actually it was again I think maybe just they just wanted to use it. I think they just said they I think we got this new thing. >> Cool. Looks [ __ ] sick. Look at that. Anyway, they >> It's the ultimate dad toy, isn't it? If you're president, >> when you got like a Yeah. When you've looked online, you've looked at all the reviews and you got the like the right [ __ ] hedge trimmer. You really want to use that. >> Anyway, they they they said in their calculations that the less deaths would be used from the the atomic bomb than a ground invasion. >> Presumably less American deaths. >> Oh, yeah. Obviously. >> Yeah. But also, I guess maybe less Japanese death because it's that slow encroachment that makes you think, well, we can push them back. We might be able to win. As opposed to, >> okay, that was a big mess and we didn't really seem to be able to do anything about it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I mean, we're not historians. That's the thing to say. So, >> hang on. So, can you just what what level of credentials do you have? >> I got none. >> I have I have a degree from Bristol in history. >> And if you weren't a comedian, you'd probably end up being a history teacher, probably. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean everyone in my family is a teacher and a lot of them are his history teachers. Okay. >> And my aunt ran the photography uh at the Imperial War Museum my whole career. So there's a real history there's a real and like you know the obsession with Nazis is I'm I'm realizing comes from Christmas. >> Your takes your aunt takes photos of guns. That's sort of your credentials. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> She collects photos of guns and she um Yeah. But that's my whole family is is history teachers actually thinking about it. And then you just you just you're just autistic. >> Yeah. Okay. Spent too much time on LGBT. >> Yeah. Something something like that. >> So we don't have any credentials. >> We are we are comedians. Yeah. >> And it's a it's it's a comedy podcast before it's a history podcast. >> I'm worried that we've been called on here as histori fallen. >> Well, but this is the [laughter] podcast is legitimizing. >> Yeah. Yeah. As you said, this is how low the barrel is being scraped. In any case, >> part of the the bit as well is how much you get away with having a posh accident and suits. >> Yes. It's amazing. >> It carries you a long way. >> We're just talking out of our [ __ ] ass and people are like, "Oh, yeah." >> Keep saying, you know, I do learn things. >> I really want to hit America cuz that they they can't they're so vulnerable to Brits and suits. >> They are. Yeah. >> Like they just think you're >> If you put a suit on, it would be absolute murder vector for weakness. >> Yeah. I mean, the amount of havoc you can >> run with a British act in America. I mean, you're doing it right now, but add the tweed suit in. Russell Brand, Graeme Hancock. >> Yeah. >> Uh I saw Graeme Hancock. >> James Cordon. >> James Cordon. Yeah. >> I mean, it's mad, isn't it? >> Jimmy Carr going on those podcasts. I mean, they can't believe it. He's a smart guy in a suit. It's like they'll believe anything he says, even absolute bollocks. I saw Graeme Hancock on a like one of those I think it was [ __ ] not Hubman it was one of those podcasts uh saying that he believes every candidate for US presidency should have to have taken Iawaska. >> Yeah. And him saying it in a suit being British >> is like that is quite a good idea. You know >> it's a terrible idea. [laughter] >> You have to take psychedelic drugs to be the president. >> Yeah. Cuz that's that's who you want in charge of the night is someone who's at any moment can have a flashback. >> Yeah. And Americans are like maybe I'm wrong cuz he's got he does have a posh accent. >> He's very soon. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> So that's the dream. We really I do want to hit America. I'd love to try and see how far we can push it. >> Do a universities. >> Yeah. Just like how far can we be intellectuals over there? >> Yeah. >> I think that you'd be very well respected. Uh and they would they you probably could actually reshape what Americans think about their own history. I'm sure you'd be able to sigh up them into believing something else with >> Well, you're trying to recolonize the curriculum at the minute. >> I am writing a book called that. [laughter] Yeah. >> Recolonize the curriculum. >> He's recolonizing it. >> Recolonizing it. >> Does that What does that mean? >> I don't know. I'm not sure I'm allowed to talk about it. Yeah. Okay. >> But um yeah, I am writing a a pseudo historical book. >> Okay. Okay. Well, it seems like you've kind of specialized in obscure bits of history as well. There's like a 24 year period of or 34 year period of post-war British prime ministers which I didn't even know was a period of history >> and you did >> well it's British history after the war until that is that the political consensus is very very very funny like >> and also if the podcast is defined by anything it probably that's the period >> it's a sort of if the podcast aesthetic is anything it's British people broke in the 70s nostalgizing the 50s or the Yeah, that's sort of the vibe that we're going for. >> So the US us doing that massive series on postwar pres people like you're still going on. This has been a month. >> And then also there are now people this week when we started talking about Japan going what do you mean you're not doing fashion? [laughter] We've been here for 10 episodes and you're not >> you did a whole episode on Douglas Alec you Douglas. Yeah. >> Okay. So it's like watching being forced to watch a really boring prequel in the hopes that you were about to get the main series and now you've just >> you just don't give it to him. But we do we do a test cricket approach. So it's like we're doing every inch of the pro no matter how boring they are, we will cover them. >> Blue balls. >> Yeah. The >> millions of people. >> But the the section we just did the 10 part series that was more the Atly consensus and how it broke. Right. So after the war at postwar socialist consensus, building the NHS, welfare state, all of that sort of stuff. And basically how that slowly broke down to the point that mommy >> they needed to they they got so desperate that they elected a woman as prime minister to come in and clean up the mess. That's the sort of that was the reach of >> Britain cuck dad [ __ ] mom that's how that's defined this country at Thatcher is who we all all that's the world we're living in really >> we're living in thatch as well but there's still remnants of Atly what's defined this country is Clement Atley and Margaret Thatcher for sure. >> I'd never heard that name before. >> Clemently. No. So he was the prime minister who was in the war cabinet for Labor with Churchill. Served well in the war. Um and then afterwards in kind of a shock he was voted in over Churchill straight away cuz even though Churchill was a war hero, everyone wanted a change. The country was on its knees. This happened Potdam at the postwar conference. Churchill's there one day, goes home for the election results and then Atley comes to Potdam with uh whoever is it Truman or >> Yes, it' be Truman. Truman and Stalin. >> Yeah. And Eisenhower and all these people and Atly looks like a [ __ ] competition winner. >> So is the conference when they're divvying up. It's not is the one after Yala where they're all divvying up uh Germany after the war >> and on the on the plane actually he finds out he's prime minister and no one thought he was going to win. >> You can see photos and he's like [ __ ] it. It's like [ __ ] a fan with Stalin. >> Yeah, it's crazy. [laughter] >> But he when he comes to power in the space of about a year and a half, he builds the entirety of the welfare state >> and then from that moment onwards until Thatcher comes in, the the state is just creaking because you start to live in a globalized economy. The Middle East kicks off, turns our lights off. And so, but no, but everyone everyone in politics has fought in the war. No one feels they can disrupt the consensus until a woman comes. Why can't they just why can't they disrupt the consensus? >> Because it's all the money they're paying for the unions and this is where the union power gets too big in the [clears throat] >> also the blitz spirit. These guys all fought together. So there was just a much more communal uh attitude for rebuilding Britain >> as Thatcher releases this kind of free market and also this sort of psychological individualism. >> Yeah. where it's like all about making money suddenly about the individual and it's not >> that that's the the tension the conflict is this sort of very socialists beginning to a very sort of capitalist marriage >> it snaps back home >> you know we've still got the NHS we've still got the ware welfare state there's still like at least >> we didn't have the NHS before >> no no that was a venture and also he was a basically a one-term prime ministership you was only in for six years but he did so much in the first two years pretty did so much. It's like the most productive uh prime and revolutionary prime ministership. >> But I do think it was only possible because of the complete blank slate the end of World War II. >> I mean your view is that we didn't get bombed enough because it was one or the other. We got bombed annoying cuz like if you look at >> if all of our rails were were bombed then we could rebuild them cuz that's like they're they're actually paying to do the the breaking down. Well, what if you want if you want to get into it, uh Germany and Japan arguably win the peace. Yeah. Because they were so devastated, defeated, and then they were basically funded by the Americans >> to rebuild. So they they their economy start growing very quickly after the war. They have a massive 50s boom. Britain is bankrupt uh and yet not completely destroyed >> and yet we spend all our money >> pretending we're not bankrupt. >> No, but also we spend all the money the Americans give us. The condition of them giving the money is that we have to have a nuclear bomb. Yeah. And so we start arming ourselves because we're in the Cold War era. Yeah. >> And so that's why we have no money from the off. >> That's why so many houses from that period are >> still there. They build these temporary prefab houses that were meant to be like last three years. >> That's that's Wel Welsh housing stock still. [laughter] >> It's crazy. Anyway, there's a whole Yeah, there's a whole 10-hour symphony uh of of that. Were there other any other unlikely heroes that you sort of fell in love with postwar? >> How I mean Howard Wilson's second term >> Wilson's a beast. >> The episode is called Stop Pegging Grandad. >> Yeah. >> That he was being sexually dominated by his private secretary. >> Actually, this is one of your euphemisms. >> No, you can you can you can look at the rest of history. They talk about it so it's real. >> Okay. Hang on. So the litmus test for Finn versus History Yeah. >> is the rest is history. I mean, I ran into Tom Holland at a historical exhibition. I said, "By the way, I'm about to start a podcast which is misremembering your podcast and you know, so that's basically what the premise of this podcast is in many ways >> is trying to remember some of their episodes and getting it wrong." That's sort of the stick. >> Yeah, it is. But [laughter] but there's a brilliant probably my favorite is um cuz Sam Brookke is a very that's is one of his specialist topics is political history in the 70s. >> Yeah. There's an episode, there's a series on 1974, the crisis year that is [ __ ] hilarious. >> It's the best one probably. >> Yeah. And that's where that's where we why we want to do this because like Heath as well. Heath is such a funny primary. >> Basically Marcio he Wilson on his second term. His first time was pretty revolutionary. It was like repealing gay rights. It was the 60s. >> Repealing gay rights. >> Uh introducing gay rights. Yeah. Sorry. Revealing gay rights was what's about to happen. Um, and by his second time he was completely exhausted. They're all exhausted. >> He had early onset outside. >> And then his assistant, he had this sort of psychosexual thing. Wasn't his wife. His assistant Marcia, for example, he was at I think in Downing Street this happened that Marcia said, "Come here, you little cunt." >> To the prime minister. >> Yeah. >> In front of all of his aids. And then he went. >> Yeah. And he just went with her. >> Yeah. So she was just like this. She uh when he won when he won his record fourth election uh he uh she told him the wrong address for um the celebration party. So there was no one there. >> She canceled it. >> Yeah. And she >> she just liked to dominate him. >> Yeah. And she was there and he turned up and then she started bollocking him. >> They had an affair in the 50s and she told his wife she said, "I went to your I went to bed with your husband six times in 1956 and it was less than satisfactory." >> Yeah. >> And and but she's his private secretary. So through the whole of his political career, he has these two wives and one of them is pegging him in downing speed [laughter] whilst the country is completely crumbling. I mean >> Wilson's great. Ted Heath cuz it flipped between Wilson and Heath to go >> over the 70s. They they >> the rudest man that's ever >> and he maybe is a pedophile. Uh who knows? Who knows? You couldn't possibly know. But he absolutely hated women so much that they were invisible. He transcended misogyny. He had one person whose life was run by a woman that was pegging him and another one who didn't see the great >> between Downing Street cuz cuz the country kept going to state of emergencies. There had to be so many elections. It was like Brexit. >> It was worse than Brexit. >> But then the great irony is the man who who literally didn't didn't see women. He got so annoyed by them. >> Then gets usurped by Thatcher and he [laughter] he hates Thatcher and he goes into what's called the longest sulk in history where he's still in the commons and he becomes the um father of the house. He's there till like the '9s or when he dies and whenever that speaks you can see him >> turning his nose up. >> Yeah, >> like that. Oh, love Heath. >> Yeah. So, Heath and Wilson are two other favorites probably. >> Yeah. >> Before we continue, if you haven't been feeling as sharp or energized as you'd like, getting your blood work done is the best place to start. Which is why I partnered with Function because they run lab tests twice a year that monitor over 100 biomarkers. 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I didn't realize that there was so much [ __ ] going on that we needed to have these snap elections just back to back to back like >> well one thing that I found quite therapeutic which I always find therapeutic about history is realizing how [ __ ] things were to put some perspective cuz certainly if you're on Twitter it feels like everything's >> grown to a hole everything's awful but you just look 20 years 30 years backwards and you're like it could be a lot worse 1974 comparing it to British political history now you remember it's a lot the Same things we're going through now, but worse. Energy crisis, economy, >> 3-day week. >> Yeah. All of that sort of stuff. >> Three-day week. >> They they uh they didn't have the energy because the miners were demanding so much money and the and the prime minister was in a standoff with them. And then the OPEC crisis kicks off with the Middle East wars. So, suddenly energy is insanely expensive and the miners realize that they actually what they've got all the leverage to demand what they need, but the country can't afford to pay them what they want. So Ted Heath doesn't give him what they want. He says, "Um, everyone can only use electricity for 3 days a week. So rations electricity. TV ends at 10 p.m. >> Um, that's when football starts getting played on Sundays because they can't afford to use flood lights." >> Yeah. >> So football, which was always on Saturday. >> In the daytime. >> Yeah. Has to be in the daytime. >> I mean, it got so bleak. >> And apparently that's when um uh uh kinky stuff starts. Yeah. >> Cuz one of the government ad man advice was this only you can only work for three days. So to pass the time, why don't you experiment with your sex lives? [laughter] So butt stuff starts because the lights >> you got to you got to pass the time somehow. >> You can only do with the lights off. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That pegging guy could have been perfectly >> start getting pegged. Yeah. Exactly. So we >> But it got so bleak. Ed Armen uh said was going to send was trying to send an airplane full of vegetables to feed the starving Brits. He said, "We we're so heartbroken to see the way that, you know, our former colonial masters are suffering. All of the people we've gathered around and everyone's like done a whip around to help Britain >> reverse reparations >> and Britain coming relief in reverse Uganda dictator sending charitable donations to Britain. It's exquisite. It's absolutely the point is though when people say this country's in the toilet, there's a feeling that it's like we we're in terminal decline. It's like we it's been far. realize how much worse it's been >> and within our parents lifetime and we've gotten out of it. So, I do think it's good to have a bit of framing sometimes. >> Speaking of the vegetables thing, I had uh John Lyall on he wrote uh the dirty tricks department which was about the founding of the OSS >> mind control. Yeah, we did a series on um >> oh like >> CIA MK Ultra. >> His second book was on M MK Ultra. His first book was the founding of the OSS. Stanley level uh William [ __ ] Anyway, um there was a story that he looked at cuz he's in uh the archives in Texas and he's reading these original documents. The uh vegetables thing reminded me of a story where a psychological assessment had been done of Hitler and they'd found out he had a very fragile hold on his masculinity. >> Oh yeah. >> And u I won't take it. >> That was the most secure man I've ever seen. >> Yeah. Uh so their their attempt was they found the gardener who grew the vegetables that went to the the what was it? The bird's nest. What was Eagle's nest? >> Um the bird's just garden. Yeah, [laughter] >> I know that one. No. Yeah. Bang. [laughter] >> Don't vision finish the question. Um they found the gardener who grew the vegetables that went to the eagle's nest. >> Yeah. >> And uh they >> hands I believe it was called. >> I don't know that. [laughter] >> I met him once. >> Shook his hands. >> Tried to inject the vegetables that were going to the eagle's nest with female sex hormones. >> Yeah. >> In an attempt to try and trans Hitler. They said his mustache would fall out. His >> voice would go high. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know this. Yeah. >> You do know your history. That's incredible. What an obscure bit of history. >> Incredibly well. >> Yeah. What an obscure [laughter] story to know. I thought I was going to be able to teach you something new. >> No, I knew that. >> Don't try that. You can't get anything but about Hitler past Finn. >> Nothing goes past. >> Okay. You're [laughter] world expert on Hitler. >> Let's say that. Yeah, that's what I'd like you to say. >> The world [laughter] expert on Hitler. >> Well, Hitler's biggest fan, I think, is a better word. >> Biggest empath. >> Cosplayer. >> No, I'm I'm an empath. >> Yeah, he's a selective empath. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> He's only an empath for one man. reverse empath. >> He has no empathy for anyone else. No. >> Uh but yeah, that um that idea of injecting vegetables with female >> sex mean trans Hitler. I mean that opens up a world of possibilities. >> Imagine >> powerful >> the things we never got to see. >> Yeah. >> Interesting for the worst crimes of the 20th century. Uh Hitler, >> Stalin, Mao, all terrible relationships to their fathers. >> Imagine if they'd had modern wisdom back >> in that period. Who had a good relationship with their father? That's us. >> Like I feel it was before it was pre good relationships with fathers, right? >> This was handshakes fathers. >> Yeah. I mean >> I mean as a father myself I >> I'd like I'd like to see who did Churchill a good relationship with his father? >> No. Horrendous. Awful. >> It's I don't think you could say that was the cause of them because it was like everyone >> we're the first generation to to to be dads that are trying. >> Yeah. >> That are actually invested. That's a really good point. >> If you look at them, you look at their life and you it was clearly this, but then you look at anyone on their street. You look at anyone in the village. >> Why did Why did he not become >> M? Why did he not become >> Stalin? Yeah. >> Uh Churchill, how do you think he would get on in the modern world of Tik Tok with >> he'd be a body booming >> influencer? >> He know he's like that guy. He's doing that guy. [laughter] >> The world. >> What's his name? Got shout out Sandro. He does the problematic pub podcast. You've got to watch. This is great for your listeners. >> He's like the opposite of you, >> okay? in that your health your health, you know, you're a bit biohacky, right? >> Biohack. >> Yeah. Right. This guy is the What's the opposite of a biohack? >> I don't know. >> It's a bio [ __ ] This [laughter] guy [ __ ] >> this guy >> and then he'll go on holiday to Magalof with his friends and then he will >> proceed to to video every drink he drinks and it will be 25 beers. >> He'll go through the cocktail menu at his hotel. 14 cocktails. >> Yeah. Strawberry daiquiri. Lovely lovely lovely. >> So that would be if we can get any of that up. If you can do some research, please shout him out. He doesn't have long left. [laughter] >> Can't have. >> Is it a YouTube channel or Instagram or what? >> It's on Tik Tok. Yeah. >> Okay, brilliant. >> Um >> but anyway, Churchill day drinking, booming speeches. How do you reckon he'd get on Modern World? >> Can you get away with that? I guess it's kind of like um the culture shifted certainly >> but then we have there has been a dir of political charisma and I think that's not politicians fault. I think is as as trust has gone, not trust, trust is gone, but [laughter] as trust love, >> charisma's gone. Trust is gone. >> Charisma left when trusted. Yeah. No. Um, we got to stop electing people because they're fit. >> Yeah. >> But the uh Yeah. the charismatic politicians they have. We haven't really I guess I guess for Faradage is probably the last successful >> to be statesmanlike is not to be sort of gregarious in that way. >> States statesmanship is is old-fashioned if we're living in the era of Trump and Farage and Vance and >> but is there a link between the success of the country and the success of the politicians? Because if you look at the politicians during the Victorian age when Britain was the predominant power in the world, they they did seem more charismatic but just by the nature of what they were dealing with, right? Do you feel like >> you didn't have to deal with the public in the way? >> I guess so. Yeah. I guess Trump is kind of like a sober Churchill at least in that he's very gregarious, the booming speeches. He just doesn't do the drinking bit. >> Yeah. Yeah. And maybe it's just Churchill's accent and and like dress sense that lends a sense of charm to the outrageousness. >> Yeah. >> Today standards I guess but then at the time maybe he wasn't. >> Yeah. What's more impressive I think is the is extraordinary that level of I don't know anyone who has that level of productivity drinking that much. >> Yeah. I just >> it's quite I don't know how cultural that is. I think people drink less now. People are much more health consscious now. But singers were so normalized to drink and smoke that much. >> The more >> if I started drinking, I wouldn't get anything. >> The more interesting question is, how would Brian Johnson get on in the war cabinet? >> Yeah. >> What the [ __ ] is this nons? >> Yeah. >> Have a beer, would you, mate? >> Yeah. >> You want to live forever? It's the 40s. [laughter] >> Go to bed at 10 p.m. >> Yeah. Come on. [ __ ] wake up. You also did deal with depression his whole life, though. Really aggressive depression. >> Yeah. Let's get serious. Let's get serious. Chris Churchill. >> Churchill. Josh was depressed. >> I thought he was. Was he not? Was he not? Did he not the black dog thing that was following him around? Is that not his whole thing? >> I mean, you look at what he was drinking. >> Is it possible to be not depressed being that hung over all the time? >> Yeah. Cuz church would be depressed. It's one he wouldn't even know what depression is. >> I don't think [clears throat] depression existed until like >> he was just a British bloke which is like sometimes he was in a grump and he didn't know what that was. >> So I don't know. >> You drinking we had whiskey on the nightstand. You're drinking whiskey when you wake up. He had a he he made is it Paul Roger the champagne and he had a customsized bottle made because he said a half bottle was not sufficient and a full bottle was too much to have with he he's sort of a two/3 what I drink in a day. >> That could have been it. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> It's weird like World War II stuff is kind of ASMR for white guys in their 30s. >> Yes. for us. Yeah. >> Yeah. And that is >> I imagine that there's just an infinite amount of stuff that you can keep going back over with regards to that. >> Well, we're trying to stretch out on our podcast cuz it is it is the it's real just nitroglycerin for the listeners. They love it. >> Yeah. >> Um cuz it is it's probably it's the most exciting thing that's that's >> Well, it's like all of history, right, was leading to the night bomb and everything's been going out. It's like an hourglass. I see. It's like history is like a pyramid >> leading towards the big atomic explosion. So that's like and then everything's been a fallout since then, right? That's how so I think World War II is just if you like history, it's it's the big it's the season finale, right? >> It's a perfect amount of long enough ago that it's interesting to research, >> but close enough to us that there was sufficient information captured about it to be able to >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But also the kind of the the biblical nature of the light and dark, good and evil, that the sides are that doesn't really happen. and the [ __ ] aesthetics and so much of culture like Star Wars uh is is built off that similar like evil dark side with the great outfits. They look great >> and this kind of iconic baddie and then the the rebel I know it's based on Vietnam Star Wars but you know the the um the rebels and stuff that that that that doesn't really happen in conflicts since I guess >> you're saying stoally World War II was the sort of pinnacle. >> Yeah. Also, and also when when you're looking at Hitler in the 30s, people didn't have a Hitler to compare him to. No. >> So, the idea of evil is >> Hitler. >> It Hitler invented that really. >> And also, it didn't really come in until the videos from the camps came out. >> The kind of idea of this like >> everyone comparing everything to Hitler, there being this idea of true evil and stuff like that that just didn't really exist in the same way. Obviously there was like religious things whereas like heretics and that sort but our modern sense of evil is all comes from >> and and the bad guy you know like James Bond all the outfits that did blow as a dictator kind of you know that whole culturally we're so born out of World War II. >> Yeah >> like action films. >> But then have you seen I don't know what your um algorithm's like. The amount of pro Hitler stuff is getting crazy. >> Pro Hitler stuff. You're not getting I haven't seen any of that. >> What's on your algorithm Chris? like just dog videos and it's it's very fluffy mine. I don't tend to get much of that like boobs. >> Boobs. >> Boobs. Uh, no, not really. >> What is I'm tits and Hitler. It's crazy. It's just Mine's just [laughter] >> not even Hitler. It's just it. >> So, what do you mean pro- Hitler? >> Oh, it's crazy that there's like a whole community of stuff. >> Also, the Pakistani guy with the mustache who does pranks in a in a love that guy. I don't know what his name is. Uh it's like what's shocking is like uh there's like Hitler's speech has been translated into English and it's not only like memes that are like I guess kind of quite like nihilistic like being pro Hitler cuz it's edgy whatever. It's the comments that there's a whole >> Is it ironic or not? >> No, it's it's broken past irony. It's genuinely pretty terrifying. So it' be like we owe Germany apology. That would be a lot of the comments. >> Is it just anti-semitism repackaged as pro- Hitlerism? It's I um I got a friend who sends me all of these because it's just >> Well, that's where the algorithms probably considered it might just be him on Twitter. >> It's not me. I should just have a friend in the room. >> Yeah. Some some You sent me some. But on on Twitter now that Elon's taken the handbrake off, it's just gone crazy. The Nazi stuff. >> Uh I got sent uh like a three-hour documentary with like a quite a proper voice over well produced. Yeah. It's like a pro Hitler one. It opens with a misunderstood artist, [laughter] a man who changed the world. So like there is definitely I think when you're told someone's evil and that's like the most defined uh kind of like truth. >> Yes. >> The idea that you've been lied to >> is thrilling for a lot of people. >> Very seductive. >> Very seductive for sure. But it is it is definitely crazy what's going online in the in the Hitler space at the moment. >> The Hitsphere. Are we in the Hosphere? >> We're in the Hosphere. orbiting the Hitler >> with the sun, I think. >> Yeah. >> A quick aside, I've been drinking AG1 every morning for years. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And it just got even better. AG1 NextG keeps the same simplicity, one scoop once per day, but now comes with four clinical trials backing it. In those trials, AG1 NextGen was clinically shown to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels within 3 months, and increase healthy gut bacteria by 10 times, even in healthy adults. 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Right now, you can get a year's free supply vitamin D3, K2, and five free AG1 travel packs, plus that 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. That's drinkagg.com/modernwisdom. >> Uh that I would not have guessed. >> Yeah, >> that there's there's videos of like Hitler playing with his dog trying to show his light aside. >> They are. I mean, they're great videos. I I [laughter] really like >> happy there's the happy Hitler. You talking about the photo shoot he did in the is it in the 20s? There's a photo shoot or maybe it's the early 30s. >> Well, when he's trying to work out his act, >> but but no, it is like a comedian. >> Yeah. Does he do early bits? Is there any of his early material the work in progress shows of Hitler? >> There's very rare these very rare photos basically where Hitler's trying to work out his like um stickick, >> you know, cuz that doesn't just come straight out. >> When does that Chaplain? >> He's the biggest Chaplain fan in the world, >> right? >> And uh >> it's hard to get Hitler, but uh he got every Chaplain film sent to him. Uh, and then in 1941, a great film, The Great Dictator, Amazing Chaplain film, uh, which is a parody of Hitler during the war, made in the middle of World War II. He gets everything sent to him and this got sent to him and it made fun of him and he was heartbroken. It was like, your hero, your biggest hero, the guy who's [ __ ] facial hair. Wouldn't it have been a real middle finger if he just shaved it off? >> Chaplain. >> No, if Yeah. Oh, actually, that would have been like >> Yeah. Hitler doing a middle finger. I feel he's done a lot worse. I don't think >> I think the Holocaust was middle. >> Yeah, but that that's worse than that. >> Is that a chaplain? The Holocaust. >> No, I guess not. I guess not. >> [ __ ] you, Charlie. [laughter] >> Teach you. >> Yeah. No, I don't think I don't think we can say that. Hot take. No. >> Chaplain calls the Holocaust. [laughter] >> It's the thumbnail title of this. >> Is that what you want now? >> Yeah, that that might work. Um, yeah. I don't know. the the trying to repurpose or trying to reinvent Hitler's position and what he stood for seems like >> well it's very it's fringe now but all these things that were fringe 5 years ago are coming into the mainstream so I wouldn't be surprised >> the niches are getting bigger so the niches are big now because of the because of the fragmentation >> because the echo chambers actually start to grow >> it's more that if if the market digitally is everyone then a niche of that market at the center is a massive amount of people >> it's enough to hold a community together. >> Exactly. Totally. >> Wow. Yeah. I uh I loved that John Lyall book because all of the little obscure bits and pieces of stories that were in history. There was this thing I learned, you talking about the Japanese before. At some point, the CIO, the OSS, tried to scare the Japanese by putting uh luminous paint. Foxes are an o a bad omen in Japan, apparently. So, they tried to scare them with glow-in-the-dark what they thought would be foxes, but they couldn't get enough foxes. So, I think they used something and not skunks. They used some other type of creature and then they put them in water and found that they washed up both dead and the water the stuff had been uh luminous paint. Yeah. Been washed off them. So, then they put a huge fox head out with a PA system and broadcast like sounds. It's crazy what they tried to do to in a desperate attempt to just scop like the early versions of SCOPS >> really like it was wet clay that people were playing with. >> Well, that there was like a they tried everything and they're like, "We're going to have to put a nuclear bomb on them, aren't we? We've done the big screaming fox head." Yeah, that didn't work. >> Tried to trans Hitler. >> Well, that but that's like the in the Aztecs. You remember in the Aztec series when the holding out against Corsair and their their version of the nuclear bomb is a guy dressed last. This is like the But when the Aztecs are doing their like final stand, >> the ultimate deterrent, you don't want to press the button, but you do. And it's a guy dressed as a massive owl. >> Yeah. >> Who comes out and goes and they all just shoot >> and they're like, "We don't want to have to use this, >> but you forced our hands." >> Yeah. >> And then comes and then the Spanish just kill him. And they're like, "Okay, right." [laughter] >> It's the same equivalent of dropping the nuclear bomb, but it bounces off into the scene. It's like, "Oh, [laughter] fuck." or the nuclear bomb. You drop out a plane, a guy dressed as an owl. >> Yeah, [laughter] >> drop on the rosha. Yeah, >> I know nothing about the Aztecs. >> The one the only thing I'll say about that is the misconception is it it should be viewed more as a civil war than like a colonizing thing cuz it was like there everyone talks about there's like 600 concisadors who took over all the Aztecs. It was actually two Aztecs that who the Mashika was a rival clan with who were [ __ ] over loads of other >> Can you remember the name of the rival clan? I remember a lot. >> Clatch Clarins. Clatch Clarins. >> Yeah. >> And then they basically allied with the Spanish >> uh to uh take over the >> internal civil war assisted by someone from >> What's missing is that it wasn't 600 concistors versus all the Aztecs. It was 600 stores with thousands of other church clients >> versus a guy in a massive al suit. >> I mean, yeah. Yeah. With an al suit. They had guns and one guy had an al. >> Were the were the Aztecs as brutal as >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> To be fair, it's pretty nuts. >> Similar to the kind of you think, you know, the sapuku thing with Japan, that's a stereotype. Oh, no, it's not. Similar to the Oh, they the human sacrifice. Oh, they [ __ ] loved it. >> What was the festival? What was the timing of this? What? What? >> This was to be fair cuz you always when you think of Aztecs, it feels ancient. It's medieval, >> right? >> Well, it's a it's a it's a it's a meeting of worlds, the Aztecs. And it's basically an iron age civilization with a kind of early modern European one. That's the >> Yeah. >> So, they had was it is it 1516? What was they called as? >> But they didn't have iron. They didn't have steel. They did sort of have wheels, but they didn't have wheels. They didn't have wheels that they actually used. >> They thought of a wheel, but they hadn't made a wheel. They made a they that was wheels on kids toys, but they' never thought to use that to >> wheel. But it's funny cuz they had this they would chop people's heads off the top of these pyramids and the human sacrifice, rip their heart out, chop their head off, and the head would roll down the steps and they didn't quite link that rolling with with wheel. >> It's interesting like the physics was there. >> They did invent slinkies. >> Yeah, that's not true. That's where our podcast >> Yeah. We can't give them the credit inventing slinkies. You got >> We don't know. We don't know who Do you know who invented the slinky? >> I don't know. >> No, we can't know. Imagine it was an American in the 70s was my feeling. >> Um but the what was the festival of blood that was like the crazy >> basically a bank holiday festival where they killed 80,000 people. >> So yeah like a day off work day off school but what like criminals? >> Uh no it be right. It would be the clarins >> prisoners from the tash. So you if you got if you got captured >> they would not like killing you in battle. They like capturing you and chopping down to then sacrifice you to their gods. >> Okay. Cuz also their form of battle was more like a step up dance battle. like it was a bit more ritualistic. So that's why the Spanish when they're just like shooting them, it's like, "Oh, I thought it was more like a >> that's why the guy is the end." It's a dance off body popping. >> I can't compete with the guy body popping just as an [laughter] owl. This dance off is over. >> There's one guy doing the worm. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But yeah, they killed like 80,000 people at once and they're like just the the stench of blood was just extraordinary. There was >> they're doing it. They don't have steel, so they're doing obsidian glass like shards. >> It's like a rock that you volcanic sort of rock that sort of like glass and it's very sharp and you chip. >> Yeah. Sort of like a flint type thing, but super sharp. Super sharp. >> So they're cutting into the breast bone and pulling out >> after the head. >> No, you see that and then they >> [ __ ] hell. >> And they have a big axe, an obsidian axe, I think. Do you so if your heart gets taken out, do you get like a couple of free pumps >> where you get to see it for a second? >> No, I think the blood's still going round. Um, but it's like heads get cut off. There's still there's still a bit of consciousness for a few >> seconds, isn't there? >> Or is that chickens? >> No, you can't. If your head's >> No, you can you telling me if you chop my head off my my POV like I'll see the carpet as I'm falling towards it. >> Yeah, cuz cuz there's a lag, right? >> Wow. again. >> Can you get one of your science guys? Do >> you have anyone googling Brian Johnson? Get your [ __ ] head guys on this. [laughter] >> The real test of the Brian Johnson is if someone cuts his head off and he >> How long does he stay alive? >> Stay alive. Cuz if it's longer than if they cut my head off, then fair fair play. Fair play. >> Have you had Brian Johnson on this? >> I have. Yes. Yeah, it was once a while ago. He's a sweetie. He's a really sweet guy. >> I tell you what, I I did I was I did say it'd be funny if he got hit by a bus just cuz like it it comedically narative comedically. >> Yeah. He died at 62 cuz he got run over. It is funny. But uh it is nice to have someone nosing about in that sphere. >> Someone's got to be doing it. >> It's nice to have just a person doing it cuz really don't like it. >> The way to think about Brian Johnson is that he is like a scout in an army. And you don't want an army that's filled with scouts. And I also probably myself don't want to be the guy that tries to climb up to the top of that mountain to see if there's something interesting over the far side. >> And I'm like, but I'll happily have him go up and come back and tell us, let me tell you what I found up there. if he comes back. >> He's nosy as hell. >> But he did >> digging around. It's like, you shouldn't be digging around in there, lad. What you looking? >> He did. Yeah. It's like trying to change the source code OS of your Windows computer, Windows XP. You're like, mate, you're gonna break something in there. >> Uh, but he did he did tweet not long ago. He said, I guarantee I will die in the most hilarious and ironic way possible. >> Yeah. So, >> well, it's just cosmically, you know, this just it would be too funny. >> Yeah. >> To just slip in a banana and hit >> the oldest person in the world right now is British. Ethel. >> Ethel. We're starting a Ethel Case. We're starting a campaign. He has to overtake the record which is held by a French woman. >> Yeah. >> Uh was another campaign. >> She's been cooking the books though. The French woman. >> There's a campaign starting a podcast to get Ethel Katerum passed. What is >> Ethel Katerum's I think on 113. >> She's 127 I believe. No >> no no the the French one is 119. That's the oldest. >> So Ethel is 113. >> French one's still alive. >> Yeah. >> No. >> No. She died. >> Right. So that's the finish line. >> No. Like we got we got to keep Ethel alive. >> Cuz if they were both racing at the same time, that would be cuz you could just >> Well, take take out >> and that's an easy one. You can [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> One slap to the face. She's gone. Yeah. >> Um No. No. So we we we uh any if you see Ethel like a like marathon runners on the 20th mile, you know, cheering. You got this. Come on. >> Give us some fish [laughter] and some companionship. Fishing, mate. Give us some blue zone. >> All the blue zone stuff. What is funny though is you got the Brian Johnson thing. It's going to be interesting to see if he outlives >> Yeah. the blue zone >> an olive oil farmer in Sardinia. It'll be just some guy, >> you know, >> smoking who's just like this old Italian guy is going to outlive Brian Johnson. He's going to >> he's drink he's drinking olive oil and just smoking and having fish. He's got mates supposedly his mates. That's what everyone say. >> Fascinating. Bri Brian's a good example of this. There's certain people who c sort of capture a cultural niche because he when you're thinking about longevity, biohacking, kind of the modern world of that, you think Brian Johnson, >> empathy with Hitler. Yeah. You think Finn Taylor. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> But the it kind of speaks to the fact that there was some subculture beneath the surface that needed a figurehead. Not maybe too dissimilar to Hitler. Um, and whenever whenever that person sort of comes up think look for better or worse like a a Tate or Dan Bilzerian or something was there was obviously some story going on some subculture thing happening and then there's this person that's the tip of the spear >> that is like the epitome of this. >> They're like the distillation of all of this stuff. And I think Brian Johnson's kind of >> he's emblematic. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Bonnie Blue. >> Bonnie Bonnie Blue. Yeah. the end result of sort of the modern sexual liberation stuff. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But then I I tried to watch a bit of the Andrew Tape Bonnie Blue podcast for research cuz we had it on our other show and uh I just thought this is like a [ __ ] GTA cut scene. [laughter] Like neither of these people are real. Like it's just not real. And and I don't know if it's people their followers are are like they they're playing along with the not real of it and or they're actually taking it real >> but because if you >> it's just they're not neither grown up online the lines between irony and sincerity has just become completely blurred. So it's sort of like >> but no one's very few people are earnest now on the internet right the sincerity is basically like non-existent. Um do you know the idea of kayfabe? Do you know this from professional wrestling? >> No. >> Okay. So, it's just basically the the >> I have a I have a mortgage, Chris. So, any any professional wrestling stuff I >> That's true. >> I will default if I engage with it. >> Um, basically the idea that sort of the hyperreal, like the fake real, the sort of Trump Trumpian >> like uh meta story, people just sort of buy into that and they kind of don't care. >> Hyperormalization. That Adam Curtis film. You seen that? >> No. >> You you like you'd like Adam Curtis. >> You love Adam Curtis. You not You should have him on. He doesn't think I'm super He makes these films, >> these documentaries. >> He's a documentary maker >> where he says it all a little bit strange. >> Yeah. So he makes these He's this guy that's allowed Yeah. British guy. He's allowed into the the BBC archives and he just lives there like a hobbit for years going through all >> Someone bring some food down to Adam Curtis. Actually, we need to check on him cuz he's been down there for about 15 years. >> And he builds these incredible films. They're all on the eye player and uh it's all used with documentary foot stock footage. And then he sort of vo tells this story of >> Thatcher thought she was unleashing precious potential. She was actually unleashing something much darker. >> Bonnie Blow. Yeah, [laughter] that would be it though. And it's >> like the British Ken Burns in that way. >> Sort of. But it's much more like >> much more kind of enchanting and like the music's more hypnot hypnotic. It's much more kind of like in some ways emotional. >> A little bit psychedelic in that. >> Yeah, definitely. Because Ken Burns Vietnam is tomic and amazing. Ken Burns Civil War. I cannot I can't I couldn't get through it either. >> It's just the the camera on the paintings. >> Yeah, >> I can't do it. But um >> American Vietnam series might be >> that's as good as it gets. >> I think that might be the best. >> It's phenomenal. And it goes on and on. And this one's an hour and a half and this one's two hours and this one's >> The key thing I've realized if you're a documentary maker like Adam Curtis and Ken Burns, you got to make the people who are watching it feel clever. >> And that's what Ken Burns and Adam Curtis do really well. I watch and I go like, well, I'm brilliant. >> Why? Particularly with Adam Curtis, is because he he will always tell a story about history and politics that you haven't thought of. And I guess >> and you feel really smart and someone asks you about it and you're like >> it opens the door to like here's what's really going here's what's really going on. There's a bit of that right >> amongst his fan base definitely. But they are they make you think about things in a way that no other documentary. >> But it makes you feel like you've come up with it. >> Makes you feel [laughter] like it makes me feel like you've like drunk the world and you can see everything and you're like >> and then if anyone asks you what it's about uh [ __ ] music playing and that >> was a lake. There was a lake where they did a deal and then that's why Bin Laden exists. Bin Laden was born. >> I'm fit. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> In other news, this episode is brought to you by Momentus. If your sleep's not dialed, taking ages to not off. 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Right now, you can get 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemus.com/modernwisdom using the code modernwisdom a checkout. That's l i v m o m n o.com/modern wisdom and modern wisdom a checkout. I still don't know why Vietnam started and I've watched that can burn three times. >> You're watching you're like well I'm brilliant. [laughter] >> Well, in many ways it starts well let's not get into it. We'll do it at some point. >> It's a quagmire. >> Yeah, it is. Yeah. >> Uh, but it was interesting you saying how no one is the French's fault. Uh, it's interesting you were saying that earnestness has gone. You I'd consider you quite an earnest person. >> I think I am. Yeah. I have a problem with ironic speech. Too much ironic speech. >> Oh, we don't have that problem. >> I imagine. Well, >> we have the opposite problem. >> Syndrome. I think I think it's a syndrome now. >> Well, even that I don't mind like it's uh the internet show that you guys do the internet. Like the whole thing is like meta and there's jokes on drugs and it's but >> but you're one of the best guests if not the best guest on the show by the way. >> Why? >> You just >> your reactions. >> Yeah. >> I think that >> you came into it with >> people laughed at how I laughed. >> It was a weird laugh. >> But I was trying to not interrupt too much cuz you're still talking and if I'm >> curoring throughout the whole thing. I was like, "Okay, I'll try and be like >> It looked like you're soulious about your body." I was trying to be like gracious about like not exploding all the time. You >> cared a lot about us getting the a good show and that really helped [clears throat] I think >> really helps. So >> and I think also this world is the funniest to write jokes about. Yeah. The kind of management >> really. Oh yeah. Because every guest we have on internet is to it's fundamentally actually is to open up a world of jokes. Bonnie it's not about Bonnie Blue. It's about let's do things about Only Fans and stuff like that. You know we have wine culture. Yeah. Wine culture. But this is what I've been interested in for so long this whole world. And it just opens up anything motivational, anything kind of the kind of >> Well, I think part of the reason it works so well is that uh you could laugh at it all. And I think that punctures the sincerity and the earnestness and the control that comes through in like clips of this and your other clips. A friend of mine actually was like, "Oh yeah, I love that episode because I I got those guy's clips and I thought, [ __ ] off, who's that guy?" And then I saw the show like, "Oh, fair play. He seems like a really nice guy. >> Doesn't take himself too seriously." And that's where the show actually internet is best is when we had it with M dot as well. >> It's like people people think they come to it thinking, "Oh, good. They're going to tear this guy. I hate this guy." And then [clears throat] they see how they're laughing along and they're aware of the absurdity of what you could humanize anybody. >> Well, that's dangerous. Yeah. And I think what was tough about Bonnie was that like I knew I knew we weren't gonna get the same kind of reactions from her that we got from you or M dot. But I also thought if there's even a chance >> she submits to the silliness. >> Mhm. >> And even just engages with the fact that like all morals aside, the absurdity of what she's done, it is absurd. The numbers are hilarious. If she even submits to like laugh along with that, it would be amazing. Yeah. >> And obviously it will get views because she's she's very current. Um, but I just thought, oh, there's a chance we get her to kind of laugh at it. >> And I don't think she could because I think she's such a she has these >> she's done so many interviews and she puts up a garden. She's and she's allowed to >> does get that's her phrases. She's got a soundboard of things she said. >> If you if you a feminist, I'm the real suffragette. That's her. She's blessed me all the time. Um but but yeah, so it it's always a it's so funny for a show that is so like it's expensive to make. It's so stressful to make. We write it for weeks before we film. >> People think it's like a podcast. >> We have these twoour windows. We got to get everything we think is funny about that. >> It is it is a real I I felt the pressure and there was no pressure on me. >> It's a high stakes thing. And it all ultimately if it's a good episode or not rests on whether the guest is in a good mood cuz if we've worked ages on a joke like we the four of us Paddyy Young Victoriao and us two we if we really care about a joke you you're in the room and sometimes the guests can trample it doesn't get the right reaction and it's just you get you tried to get me to say the word men. >> Oh [ __ ] yeah. The barber shop quartet. >> That wasn't me trying to be awkward. I was just trying >> You're probably just really confused. >> Yeah. I was like because you were waiting to >> we had to get the >> begin this thing and I didn't say the word men. I was like well it's you know guys you know it's like young dudes and you were like >> what it's the opposite of a woman. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. But it is that it's like this it's such a stupid show and so many well obviously it's a stupid show but to make it it's so stupid >> because it you know it's part not that I'd ever do it on TV because I don't think it would work but part of the reason it wouldn't work on TV is that um it's just too high stakes. >> Yeah. High risk that too high risk. Not not just >> it's too much of a noble medium compared to >> Well, it's not just that the guest might walk out. It's that really you have to get everything in one take. sort of. >> Have you had anyone walk out? >> M dot tried to and then there were so many cameras in the way that he couldn't get out. But then I also think he was sort of playing along. >> He seemed like a really good sport. >> Yeah, he's great. >> I love I love him. >> Yeah. I tell you what, he jammed us. He really >> did cuz we were messaging about this. Did you go and do some in America? >> No, we So we we we've just >> I would love I think you could get Brian John. I think we could easily get Brian Johnson. >> Finn as well. I think Finn's character is built for Americans. taking Americans take themselves more seriously and I just think >> there's so many people will be much more >> you know Aubrey Marcus owner of Onyx founded on it with uh Joe Rogan >> recently revealed that he's um in a like a polyamorous marriage where he's having kids with both >> Christ >> partners kind of at the same time. There's >> there's something there for sure. >> There's a standard >> two family WhatsApp threads. I think it's all part of one. Yeah, I think it's all part of one that's [laughter] just >> can't be can't be >> two women in it. It'd be a group announcement like the Slack channel would have a couple of different yeah different versions in in the organization. But anyway, the earnestness thing is really cool. No, it's a really really good point. Um, >> do I have a problem with I like ironic speech when it knows what it's doing. One of the problems with it only ever being irony is that you don't ever actually get to come into contact with reality or what someone thinks or what they feel about a thing. And that's kind of fine when there's a bit of self-awareness, but it feels like a lot of the stuff on the internet, if you look at most Twitter disputes for ex disputes, whatever, it's someone going like, I know you are, but what am I? It's this very standoffish. It's very insincere. It's very sort of cutting and sardonic. And at some point, >> I sorry to interrupt. I think the problem is that with that is that you separate or I certainly do. I mean, it's easier if you're a comic, but it's like everything I do online is comedy because it's online. It's not real life. I then have a family life and a personal life that is not, you know, I don't use Instagram like a millennial. >> You're not being ironic with your me and my kids in a pumpkin patch at Halloween. Oo, so many pumpkins. Who gives a [ __ ] That's not how I use it. I use it to make comedy since I'm a comedian. Uh, I think that's how everyone actually treats online. It does. It's not real. But then there are people who cross the streams who are like comedians that then try and make actual points or maybe they interview like Trump genuinely and it's like never clear whether it's jokey or you're just platforming a guy or you know that whole world. >> Yeah. You open for a Trump rally. Well, >> yeah. It's like what what are you at this point? Yeah. The kill Yeah. Tony opening for Trump. It's like well you >> if you're anti-Trump that's a great place to be as a comedian. >> But if you're pro Trump on a pro Trump rally then that >> what what's the point of this? you just >> the comedy doesn't get injected. understand certainly our view of comedy but >> well that's I think you separate it's church and state that's what I think you do >> but also separate them >> I do agree with you the you know there's a danger with the irony and insincerity that nothing is >> meaningful anymore >> meaningful but the something is also symptomatic of that culture is I do think there's a lot of bad sincerity out there's fake sincerity they're the other side >> performative sincerity and performative >> like sincerity it's like you don't know who you are and you're just you're just sounding sincere Yeah, there's this the music. Let it all work out. Like there's that music playing underneath it. But what you're saying is absolute bollocks. I would much rather be ironic and sarcastic if you have nothing meaningful to say in a sincere manner. >> So the the the the curtain's fallen, right? In that people know that, you know, like a mum influencer is broadcasting her private life for followers, for money, for brand deal. >> So how can you say that's earnestness? Yeah, it's not it's not earnestness because you are privatized you privatized your home life and therefore you live in a state where you can't actually live earnestly because at any point you're thinking well this is a moment to exactly so actually I think online will always be sarcastic and ironic and dumb and what people need to get better at doing is realizing when people are real and when they're not and >> take online less seriously. >> Yeah because it is >> but I guess it is serious. Well, that's the thing is that you things like Charlie Kirk and it all kind of bleeds in and Kirk was clearly doing there was moments things of what he said where I think he would say it's like more of a shtick. It's rage bait and does he end up getting killed for that? Who knows? Like like do you know what I mean? It's at what point did do would he separate his clips from him as a person? It all seems quite models. >> Yeah, definitely. >> It's really it's it's something I think about a lot. Uh, and you're right, somebody that is thinks they're being earnest and is just not self-aware and that is their whole sort of persona online. Like the performance has like got inside of the person and is staring out through their eyes and they they haven't been able to separate out themselves from that anymore. That's >> cringe. That makes everybody like >> or it's a grift or it's Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Or maybe they are aware or they're half aware or they've got whatever. But that that is what that's like catnip to the internet, right? Like pointing out this person who >> snake snake. >> Yeah. Yeah. Grifter shill >> whatever. Yeah. Uh you know you can do that in real life though. >> Yeah. You've been doing it in real life. >> Nons comes from. You know where the word nons comes from. >> Or is it not? Is it stands for not normal courtyard exercise? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Prison stuff. >> So good. >> Yeah. >> Uh anyway, just Yeah. the the earnestness ironic speech thing is I think it does depend on it would be nice to have some people Brian Johnson for all that you can criticize he he is quite self-aware about how insane his life is >> and to tweet something like I I can promise you I will die in the most ironic way >> that's why I'd love to have him on our show because I think actually cuz people would go going oh it's this [ __ ] guy because people judge they hate him because it feels like he's telling them to live better and then people always hate that so [ __ ] this guy and then if he could laugh at it with us >> people Fair fair play, you know, and I think that's kind of what the show is. It's like a sense of humor test almost, >> which is a very British thing. I It's a very British. >> Yeah. Do you find the American British British thing? Cuz obviously, you know, you grew up in Stockton, Britain, and I feel you >> Stockton is bad. Stockton very British. It's very Brit. It's like >> the worst place I went on that tour last year. >> What was quite interesting is when you said where you lived and you without a pause said that's the worst place I've ever been. [laughter] >> It's the worst place. Stockton. >> Yeah. Uh the escape velocity to that you need to get out of there is quite high >> and like the northeast traumatized >> Newcastle Northland's gorgeous part of the world. Stop. >> Yeah, >> it's pass. >> Yeah, it had a >> but you got the appeal of America, right? It would be this attitude. It feels like even though you're you're British, you are much more enamored with the American point of view. >> There's no ceiling >> or there kind of all there's more sincerity in America >> to a degree. There's less self-awareness. Um the big thing for me is sort of enthusiasm or encouragement that I seem to thrive. Maybe it's low self-esteem. I if the people around me are pretty infused and encouraging like oh I like I can maybe go and do that thing like isn't that great? >> It's not any whatever the opposite is. Gravity is like five times heavier in Stockton than than is anywhere else. So that and I just like being around it. Um, I had this debate with Pers Morgan and he said, "I love when my my friends sort of piss taking is sort of my favorite mode of bonding." And I'm like, "Yeah, I get that." And that you every British working-class guy grows up with that as like the mode of bonding between you and your ironic ironic speech, lack of earnestness, sort of pissing. But after a while, if it never come if you never come into contact with sincerity, >> it kind of feels a bit like, well, like where does the world exist? Is it all this like hyper world like where is something >> but also that that you know when we go to when I go to America in the first day I'm like the the you know the tipping and the service I'm like [ __ ] off they're a bit much aren't they? Hi there I'm going to be your week all that and then you get into it and you're like this is really nice actually. >> Yeah >> because it's a holiday >> and then I don't think I could live there live there >> cuz it's too much. >> I'm cursed. I'm Yeah. I'll never not be >> a sugar rush. Yeah. >> I'll never I'll never shed my Englishness and I do think I'd find it. >> But I'm also very European. I like walking around. I can't >> I like walking around and I like people being rude to me in shops. I just don't you know it feels >> New York might work. >> Yeah, exactly. York like walking around. >> New York feels European the most European part of >> Yeah. >> the states. >> Yeah. Uh I I've enjoyed I've enjoyed that. But you're right, it's dependent for America stuff and there's a small contingent of British and Irish people in Austin and I think that we sort of cling on to each other like life rafts. >> You must need a bit of a break, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. But there's still a lot of a little bit less a tiny bit more. >> Uh yeah, I think mercifully a lot of the team that I work with there's still I mean British guys like so >> beautiful British boys. >> Platriots. >> Platriot. Uh I wanted to I wanted to ask you guys if you knew I found a I found an interesting uh snippet of history. Did you look at the dancing plague of 1518? >> No, I don't have. >> Not yet. >> Can I tell you about I'm aware of it but go but yeah >> people just couldn't stop dancing. >> Oh yeah, we did talk about Yeah. >> Oh well remember maybe you did that. No, no. I'm I'm going to do a bit on the dancing plague of 1518. We'll get back to talking in just a minute, but first, some things are built for summer. 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You don't even need to return the box. That's how confident they are that you'll love it. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklnt.com/modernwisdom. That's drinklnt.com/modernwisdom. Uh, entire towns in Europe literally danced themselves to death. Began in July in Strasburg when a woman named Fra Trophia >> stepped into the street. beautiful language, beautiful people. >> Uh began uh stepped into the street and began dancing uncontrollably. >> Within a week, dozens joined her and within a month, the number had grown to 400 people. Many danced for days without rest and some reportedly died from exhaustion, stroke, or heart attack. Authorities were baffled. Doctors ruled out supernatural causes. Don't know how you do that. And blamed it on hot blood. Incredibly, they even hired musicians and built a stage hoping that people would dance it out. That only made things worse. The cause remains a mystery. Theories range from mass hysteria triggered by stress and famine to urgot poisoning. Uh but no explanation is universally accepted. I mean there's not much to do. >> Always urgot. That's what that's >> it is kind of the god of the gaps of >> Well, that's not an ego. That's was an urg. No, it's not not an Emmy [laughter] or Grammy and Oscar and Tony. No, it's the >> Athenian wheat. It's the wheat thing when when bread goes bad supposedly. It's um witch trials witch crazes because >> moldy bread. >> Moldy bread. A woman eats some moldy bread and she goes cuckoo. >> And B's just like, "Oh, string her up." >> Which >> exactly? Yeah. But the dancing stuff is, you know, >> I guess how are you going to get your dopamine rush? >> You need that somewhere for a month. It's pre >> 400 people dancing for a month. >> Dancing for a month. >> It's like the worst version of the uh burning man in history. Uh some did. Many danced for days without rest and some some reportedly died from exhaustion, stroke, a heart attack. They could have just accidentally synthesized some kind of drug, couldn't they? >> Yeah. And then for a month that lasts for a month, >> they probably could just keep eating it cuz they're not aware of, you know, >> uh dosage >> pre-dos, isn't it? >> And also, you're a god-fearing people. So if you get anything psychedelic, you think you're being >> But even in the we did this in the Greeks, you remember the wine, the Dianician cult, they'd all drink wine, >> and they Yeah. They they'd eat what's it called? The eating a goat uh with your bare hands. There's like a word for it. Um, we're eating an animal, tearing an animal apart. >> Yeah. >> That was that was wine culture 2000 years ago. You drink glass of wine, they go >> like that bloke that you had on the show. >> Yeah. Tom. Yeah. >> Yeah. That's where it's ended up now. >> And now it's now it's a pony guy walking around London going, "Oh, Shard." Like that's [laughter] that's how the story of wine has changed. >> Yeah. >> Eating goat with your bare hands. >> Yeah. >> To walk around. >> And now it's beer culture. What I drink in a day? >> What I drink in a day? [laughter] >> What I eat in a day? >> Yeah. >> Uh, what about Darwin? You did Darwin. Is it? >> Yeah. One of my one of my favorites. Scientific racism. >> Well, why why was your favorite is is the the story of Darwin on the Beagle. Fine. When we start getting into I do think one of our best episodes is part two of that series. Uh where we look at the >> birth of eugenics. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Basically Darwin was looking at bugs and writing in his little notebook and everyone was like brilliant. Uh let's rank races. This is I love all of these theories. That's brilliant. Let's measure black people's skulls and say how low their IQ is. Phronology. Is that physomy? >> Phronology. There's something so funny about the esteem of scientists when the science is completely wrong. That is >> what do you mean? >> Hilarious. >> Well, the smartest people in that age were the most racist. >> Yeah. So, we have we have a catchphrase on the podcast which he's a scholar and a racist. Yeah. >> Because in the 19th century it was scholarly to be racist. And also the idea of racial science Victorian polymath it will be people who have done extraordinary things in multiple fields invented like like the weather pain invented like so many different forms of science history but they also >> so there's a man called Francis the most thing you've ever read >> who uh in many invented the modern weather maps meteorology so many things but he was also a massive eugenicist and he literally invented the dog whistle >> that was we found out on the And that was one of our big >> So when you say dog whistle politics when you're talking about race but you're using words like urban and inner city when you're actually what you mean is black people and that's like a way of whistle. >> That's why I call it dog whistle cuz you tune to hear it. >> You can hide messages in speech so you can get away. But he >> invented the actual dog whistle for dogs [laughter] >> and was a eugenicist. >> But to be fair to him he never did dog whistles cuz he was just saying >> no he was shouting at dogs. >> Yeah. Well, you didn't need to talk with you. >> Yeah, there was no he would write in a book saying, you know, >> black people are stupid. >> Yeah, a dog. [laughter] >> It's more calling your dog. >> You know that Gton had >> Fenton. FENTON. >> YEAH. >> It's the opposite of dog. >> He had a pattern for how you could cut a cake so that it wouldn't go off. >> A circular cake. >> Yeah. >> Well, you weren't allowed to cut it like that. >> I don't know. He registered I don't know. He'd registered it. It's in I read an article by Adam Mastriani about Francis Golton. Yeah. It's fascinating. I mean again >> birthed some pretty dangerous >> racist racist. So you circular cake and you sort of cut a corridor out the middle of it and you push it together. That was apparently revolutionary in the early 19. >> Well, yeah. As opposed to cutting a wedge and then how do you fill the wedge? It's exposed from the inside out. his uh his sister had some uh spinal problem. >> Yes. >> So he taught her as she was laying she would be laying facing the ceiling and he would read to her. I think she would read to him and that was she would lay on a table and that was how they would cuz he was homeschooled. He also said in his whatever biography or memoir that when he started working in the doctor's office uh or a pharmacist's office that he decided he was just going to try every uh different medicine from A to Z. >> Yeah. and he got to one that was I think C or D, I can't remember what it was that he took and it caused him to [ __ ] himself so badly that he remembered it five decades later. >> Oh, right. And then he stopped after that. >> To be fair, I don't think you want to ever be able to sort of brush off [ __ ] yourself. >> Yeah. >> But you remember it. >> You don't want them to to blur into one point, I think. >> Right. Okay. Past the age of what, 10? >> Yeah. Yeah. I think once you're >> remember I can remember my shape myself. >> Yeah. You want those to be memorable. You you hold on to them. They're almost memories. Formative memorories. You don't want it to be like I'm [ __ ] myself so much I couldn't possibly >> I don't know what day it is. I just know [laughter] that I've sh myself. >> Could be could be a Tuesday. >> I remember when I didn't [ __ ] myself. That's >> a memory. >> I didn't [ __ ] myself. That's very [laughter] distinct cuz normally I am constantly covered in [ __ ] >> Um but that that episode was there was crazy stuff which because of um because of the Nazis you can't even go back over it in the same way. So we discovered so many there was like >> uh because uh uh of the kind of moral consensus that came after World War II saying that all of this stuff is >> racial science leading to genocide >> and the and the Holocaust kind of was the full stop on that where it goes. So >> people missed this 80 years that was leading up to that that had so much funny stuff if you view the world like we do. Um, but there was amazing stuff where there was like disabled people campaigning for themselves to be sterilized. >> Sterilized out of Yeah. >> saying, "I cannot read I shouldn't have kids in a misspel sign." >> I was going to say, who sign? >> Well, there's an amazing photo of of people and we don't know whether they're they're genuinely mentally disabled people holding the signs or they're people pretending false flag. false flag. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> There was a and there was a there was a >> Yeah. They're like the Sandy Hook victims. >> There was a massive thing. >> What did we find out? It was like So there's a big camp there in the 20s in America. America and interestingly the America and Nazi Germany were like they were the two people who were really going for eugenics and the and there was a eugenics um office. I don't know where >> the race race. >> Yeah. It was the race for race, [laughter] not like the race for life. and and they were and there was a something about because in the buildup to the 30s like America like Ford were were basically militarizing Germany like all the the Nazi um industrialization remustation was a lot of American companies and there was a there was a [ __ ] a eugenics this was when eugenics was a charity like eugenics charity in America who were writing >> uh or rather Hitler took just copy and pasted their text and made it Nazi policy on racial science. Um, but they influenced a lot of American states and I think the most amount of forcible sterilization, involuntary sterilization install it, um, is California. >> Yeah. >> Which coincidentally is where everyone looks the fittest. >> Yeah. >> It's quite funny. It's quite funny that actually sunshine state was where the most selective breeding uh happened in America. There's also this amazing graph which was was it Victorian uh about the when they were trying to categorize stupid people. >> Yes. >> So you have I think at the top you have [ __ ] >> [ __ ] is the cleverest stupid person. >> [ __ ] can do simple. >> This is scientific terms for what we'd now say mental health conditions. This is what the scientific term was in the >> like imbecile and stuff would be you do [ __ ] which I think means that you can do low thinking skills. I think is that like low cerebral task is [ __ ] going to be in here I imagine >> and then it's high grade imbecile which means you can only do stuff with your hands then medium grade imbecile low gradede imbecile and then at the bottom is idiot which means you can't do anything >> yeah you can't keep yourself alive it's an idiot that's where that word comes from >> but I didn't realize that [ __ ] was ranked above idiot and imbecile was in between I didn't really >> in your bio back in the day you'd have like proud [ __ ] >> right okay because the top you're the top of the bottom of the >> it's more it's more the mental health labels nowadays people are like autistic Queen or whatever. >> Yeah. >> In 1910, you'd say proud [ __ ] >> Uhhuh. >> You'd say embassy ally >> or whatever. You know, >> imbecile Jason. Jason. Yeah. Medium grade imbe. >> Oh my god. So how much how much was Darwin at fault for his >> we thought he was Darwin's cousin. Darwin writes the book uh on the theory of natural selection. And there's another one. And then but then a lot of people around him go, "Yeah, this explains uh they bring in Malthusian concepts of like the poor and like um >> what's that thing where you >> I'm talking about lizards, guys." >> No, no, we get it. Yeah, we get it. We get it. Chinese people are stupid. I know what you're [laughter] saying. >> And so it's Darwin's cousin who might actually is Golton. Maybe Golton was Darwin's cousin. I can't remember. Anyway, >> they take they take the work and apply it to things like, you know, the empire, slavery, all these things are they're trying to sort of retroactively justify things like colonization and slavery, imperialism. >> Yeah. It makes sense to them through that lens that these people are stupid because we've conquered them and and we have to paternalistically nurture them to our level. >> I mean, Hitler is a very Darwin >> and Hitler. Yeah. The end point of the world. >> Hitler is the bonny blue of scientific racism. taking it as far as it can go >> as far as the numbers. >> Um, and I mean that for both the numbers, >> but like you know uh here to take scientific racism to the end point and that's why there's that's why everyone goes well we're not even touching this stuff. Phronology is um debunked. All this stuff is uh you know >> is not science. >> But we're bringing phology back, aren't we? Yeah, we are just because it's very funny to >> to call ourselves. >> Have you done it in >> We're going to start a thing where all guests are going to get calipers out and we're going to measure and we're going to have like a Top Gear leaderboard where we're sort of like >> And is it bigger head is better? >> No, thicker. >> Thicker. Yeah. >> Thicker head is better. >> Bigger head stupider. >> Yeah. Mentally thick. >> Smaller head better. >> Yeah. It's it's a it's a complicated science. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know you you wouldn't get it. >> You would get it. You're not you're not wearing a suit. >> You're not qualified. [laughter] >> It's true. True. I'm an amateur for >> the head's too big. >> We should do branded uh merch calipers. >> We should do branded calipers. Yeah, >> it's a good idea. >> Do you think [laughter] we're about to go into a world with uh embryo selection for ID? >> Well, you know, yeah, it's not a million miles away from um sort of Yeah. gene therapy, isn't it? And all that stuff. And is that that's legal in the US? You can >> embryo selection is embryo editing is not >> right. >> So, you can do >> editing means you can just be like, "Yeah, yeah, get rid of that. Oh, that's good. That's nice." Because what about like the BA the BA gene and all that those genes that cause cancer and it's a woman's thing you wouldn't know what it is but um >> some women have this gene mutation called a BA which means that they're >> very likely to get ovarian or breast cancer aged 40 and that's where it turns out most ovarian cancers from this one gene mutation that you can screen for supposedly you can screen for it in a >> in a unborn baby or an embryo. I don't know if that's legal or not. I don't know. >> Uh you I'm I'm pretty sure you can screen for everything now. I mean there's companies in America that will allow you to do a polygenic risk score. You do a little sample and then it'll say well here's a dashboard 10 fertilized eggs. Yeah. >> And if you embryo one like wow intelligence is high but immune system is quite low and autism risk is quite high. And then you go look at the second well intelligence is back a little you have like a sort of mixing board and can you but you can't you can only choose you can it's like having um yeah it is like top drums or FIFA when you get the player stats yeah uh but you can choose you've got your there's your harvest there's side team you know >> or you go big hands that's good >> literally like that and you can do that >> I think what's it's kind of weird about that is um everybody has some sort of understanding that traits are heritable Right? That's how dog breeding has occurred. That's why people have got the same eye color as their parents, etc. So, there's some amount of heritability, but because eugenics was such bad branding >> for anything that was to do with behavioral genetics, >> that it's like everyone's got this like, oh, [ __ ] hell, >> squeamish. >> Yeah. It's real ick. But this is going to bring it back into >> front and center because as soon as parents realize that they can select their kids, >> they're going to have ugly kids. They're gonna have they're more likely to go to Ivy League. They're more likely to to >> But what's going to be interesting is if everyone is selected, it's going to be like how middle class families decorate the living room. It's going to be a sign of taste. It's going to be like, "Oh, that's embarrassing. Your you chose your kid to be like that. That was very like trendy for the time, but now it's very ghost. It's dated new money. That could be that's a new money. Like it's new jeans. That's new jeans. We're old jeans. As the only parent here, the the whole the whole thing about parenthood is that you don't choose the card you're dealt and you raise the kid no matter what the >> you play the ball where it lies. >> You can only play the team in front of you. You're a parent to your kid. That's why you should never really take advice from any other parent because they're dealing with another kid. >> And so, >> but wouldn't you what if you're cutting out like really severe like the far end of it? What about cutting out >> severe disorders and stuff? >> Well, yeah. If you can do if I guess I guess we're just where that line is, isn't it? >> Yeah. This is exactly >> that's where the debate will be. the exact question which is okay we say that selecting against Huntington's or like negative traits is good >> but when it's just a single spectrum the argument is it's just a single spectrum all the way up to well a more robust immune system means that they're going to surv and then well you know intelligence is correlated with not going to jail isn't correlated with life satisfaction but all all that yeah all that stuff I mean you have to have surely it's a suffering line where all the rest that's not predest that's not predetermined you can't predetermine whether someone's going to go to jail that's that's >> you can predict You can predict it at least a little bit. Higher IQ is negatively correlated with likelihood of going to jail. >> Yeah. But again, that's like >> But then there's loads of things. If you got high IQ, you'll be in a safer um normally you're probably in a safer home environment. >> Yeah. Exactly. I haven't done the data. No, but what I mean is that I guess part of the thing about being a parent is that you just have to you're dealing with the the kid you get and mentally it's a much easier journey if you are like well this is the kid I've got this is the kid I'm going to this is the kid I chose >> the kid that I would like to be >> that's a good point >> rather than going well I actually >> why I should have picked differently because the whole time the choice paralysis you have when you're picking what your kid's going to be like Netflix too many things you're like ah [ __ ] no I shouldn't have picked that he's so [ __ ] annoying This is 80s China. There's no return. >> Yeah. Cuz also you probably love your kid less in many ways because the um >> you miss the unrequitedness of the love for your child is this is no matter what this is destiny. This is what was meant to happen. But if you're like I [ __ ] up every three. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. And that's what you shout at them when you fall out with them when they're teenagers. >> Yeah. Your whole point is you watch them grow and you don't have very much control over them. So if you go into it thinking you have control mentally that is the worst place to be in when you have children is thinking you have control over it. >> You don't have any control. You're just trying to keep them alive and and make sure that they are happy. >> That's that's the mental. That's my advice. >> Surrender control. >> Yeah. >> Cuz you're not in control of anything. >> Yeah. Have you found that hard? >> No. That's great. It's liberating. >> Hands off the wheel. But you tried. >> My hands off the wheel. [laughter] I'm driving the car. >> I just um >> they're just [ __ ] everywhere naked, you know, just hands off. >> Whatever, [laughter] man. >> Weed. >> But, you know, you're trying to drive a career forward and get the show and all of the prep and the rest of the things that you do, >> ring fencing that, partitioning that off and saying, "Oh, but I'll just, you know, hope for the best with finding the line. Finding the line between control and not the best." It's like at this stage, you know, they're four and two. They're like, if I'm around a lot, that's good. Mhm. >> You know, cuz the alternative is to go, well, well, my career, you know, but your career is a never end. Like, it's a never- ending thing. And I don't think you look back on your life think I wish I'd worked more, >> you know, >> an interesting situation that people are in now, at least some people that have the choice of whether they want to work or or not work. Yeah, >> that we went very quickly from a world where the dad was 5 days a week up at 5 in the morning and then back on an evening trying to, you know, single family income, single person income type thing to now uh people have started to put that philosophy forward as it's self-generated. It's like, well, I'm going to push myself into my career because I want to validation, etc., etc. So, well, you got the the there's someone who is pretty validating there playing next to you, but >> I also think I mean I get a lot of these reals about like the science behind dads, >> but there is there's a there's a woman you might have had her on doctor. I think she's a doctor. Sounds like one who talks says that says that a child's mental health is linked to how available and present their dad [clears throat] is. Maybe it's maybe it's girls. Maybe daughter's mental health. >> Okay. Um, and I just think just being around is like as a dad, you know, you can be you can be hopeless, but if you're around, >> you're doing something. >> Do you feel like a bit of a spare part for the first few years? Like you you're like a cheerleader from the side. >> Six months you are a you are a spare part, but then you you know, you need to prop up the wife. >> Mhm. Um, you need >> you're there as the pit crew >> kind of, but also that's I think that's something men tell themselves to to be like, "Ah, I'm not really it's not really my thing." You know, it's a it's a defense. It's a comfort blanket. Be like, "Oh, I don't know what I'm you know, there's a lot you can I'm not even needed here. There's a lot you can everything that isn't the kid." >> You can bottle feed the kid like I could possibly >> I saw a video of a guy on a plane who must have been maybe the wife wasn't there. He was traveling with just relative like newborny type kid and tried to bottle feed. Didn't want to. Uh put a photo of the wife over his face >> and stuck the bottle through the a hole in the t-shirt. >> Fine. >> Yeah. I mean, they're idiots. You can check them. >> Outwitted them. >> Yeah. >> Then he starts doing it without the kid and it's like he enjoyed it too much. >> That's That's a dog. [laughter] That's a kid. >> Madness. Um, but yeah, I mean I get I I sort of the whole gene therapy thing. I think you're kind of ruining the surprise of parenthood. And I guess, you know, suffering is a is a legitimate debate as to how much suffering you can edit out of someone. But >> yeah, I I just think it's it's a slippery slope because you will just start having these expectations >> of your kid that are like more foundational than your own neurosis in that you have bought and ordered your own child. Yeah. >> So, you're going to you're going to go mad. >> Yeah. You knew you should have got the new [ __ ] Subaru in gray instead of in white. >> When we were potty training, my daughter, cuz we have a dog and the dog shit's outside. There was about 6 months my daughter would go outside to have a [ __ ] And you're like, >> learn from the dog. >> Cuz she learned from the dog. >> And then you're like, what? How do I explain to a three-year-old that you're not a dog and the toilet is here? [laughter] If I had bought a genius, I would be so livid. But because the fact that she's at least not pooing on the floor, I'm proud of [laughter] her. >> Congratulations. >> I'm proud of her, you know. >> Yeah. I uh I don't know. Maybe maybe we'll see the the new world of I think that I should be present. Like that's a you know, revolutionary if you were to look back >> 50 years. It's like >> I'll meet you when you're 18. >> Yeah. Mad >> kind of >> handshake and a glass of scotch when you're 18. See you later. Yeah. >> The Churchill thing. Just going back to that. I remember I read a letter from him. He said to his father how proud he was to have finally got into this regiment, right? >> And his dad responds with just the most [ __ ] >> hurting. And it's this whole thing like you have uh cost me this much money, you have failed wanting and disrespect and all the rest of it. And then at the end of it, he signs off and he says your mother sends her love. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> [ __ ] Ruth at least. >> Yeah. So being around, just being there. >> I think I think that does something. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Even if you're getting shouted out all the time. >> Yeah. >> Just being around. >> Gentlemen, what are you doing next? What can people expect over the next few >> Well, I don't know when this is coming out. >> Uh probably 3 weeks, something like that. >> Okay. So, we'll be in the middle of our tour. >> Yeah. >> Which is sold out. So, people can't get any. >> Yeah. Uh there's stuff in the pipeline. There's lots of stuff. Fin the internet. There's stuff that there's history twice a week. Yeah. >> Uh we're we're one of we're I checked this morning, we're like the 26th Patreon in the world. Yeah. So join the Patreon. >> Join the Patreon. Join the army. >> What do you get for being in the uh Patreon? >> You get a bonus episode every week. You get early access to the week's episodes. Add free listen versus history and the inter so you can you can pay for both shows. You can pay just one. Um, >> I think the main thing people do the patron is, especially with the history podcast, they everyone wants the episodes immediately because if you listen the one part, >> people don't like being forced to wait for the next part. Yeah. >> So, the main thing >> binge about the prime minister two weeks, you get four. >> They're like, they just don't stop eating. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Just eat 10 hours of postition a day. >> Yeah. And throwing up everywhere, bloated. It's Yeah. No, it's awesome. I I really I think that what you guys are doing is is super cool. Thanks, man. No, my pleasure. My pleasure. Until next time, boys. >> Thanks, Chris. Cheers. >> Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, you will love this one with Mr. Naval Rabacan. It's first episode in six years. Go on, press it.