Practical Tools for a Less Anxious Life - Donald Robertson

What do you wish more people knew about how anxiety works and what causes it from your perspective? >> Gosh. Well, anxiety used to be my specialism, although now I focus a bit more on anger these days. Um, but they're both they're two of my favorite uh emotions. The main thing I think that people should know about anxiety uh is it's we tend to think of emotions uh in a very simplistic way in our society. We have very simplistic language for emotions and most people buy into something that psychologists sometimes call the hydraulic model of emotion which is the idea that emotions are just like a blob of energy that sort of wells up inside you and you can sort of try and push them down or you can sort of vent them or whatever and that's wrong. That isn't how emotions work basically. It's massively overly simplistic unfortunately. That's what we sometimes call the folk psychology or kind of default psychology. So we get off to a bad start by not having the faintest idea how our emotions work in the first place. So the main thing I would say is I I think of a an emotion like anxiety more like a recipe for baking a cake. Like it's got milk and sugar and eggs and raisins and whatever else you want to put in. So the thoughts, actions, feelings, mental images, memories, all these things kind of get mixed together and that bakes the cake of whatever type of anxiety that you've got. And the main thing people should know about treating anxiety, I'll hammer this home because it really is one of the main things. I like to call this the most robustly established technique in the entire field of psychotherapy research. How would you like to hear about that? Right? And that's no exaggeration. So there's a thing that we use in CBT that we've known about for like well over half a century. Maybe it's cracking on like 70 years or more now that it's been used in therapy called exposure therapy, right? And it's probably the most reliable type of therapy that we have. Basically, it's used for phobias and other types of anxiety as well. So, Chris, what would happen if you take someone that's got a cat phobia? Animal phobias are generally considered to be pretty much the simplest type of anxiety. It's pretty straightforward. There's other types of anxiety. comes in flavors like social anxiety, panic attacks, PTSD, stuff like that, right? But we'll start off with a nice easy snake phobia or uh cat phobia. So, you get someone with a cat phobia, right? And you sling them in a room with a bunch of cats. What's going to happen to their heart rate for a start? >> It's going to go up a lot. >> It's going to go It's It's probably going to almost double, Chris. Like, as if you're sprinting or something like that. And it'll do that in less than five seconds. And that's a pretty robust measure of anxiety. Generally speaking, certainly for phobias, it is. Right. So that's easy. We start off with an easy question to kind of lure you in, buddy. Now I'm going to ask you a slightly trickier question. What happens next? >> Does it stay there >> forever? >> Uh well, until the cats are removed. >> Until the cats are removed. You what goes up must come down, right? So we could wait. We could wait as long as we like. Like is it just going to stay there forever? Like it's probably going to start to come down eventually, right? And it'll return probably to almost it starting level if we wait long enough, right? And nothing catastrophic happens. Actually, the first thing that will happen is this cat phobic is going to want to get out of the room desperately, right? But they can't cuz we locked the door. So tough, right? [laughter] But there'll be an urge. This is why people often don't overcome their fears, right? Because there'll be a powerful drive to avoidance, obviously. >> Um, so interestingly, what's one of the main things that would encourage somebody to stay in the room even though they desperately want to run out the door would be the presence of another person encouraging them to do it. Now, that might be somebody that's getting paid money for doing it, like a therapist or whatever. You know, good for them. But back in the day when you were just little, Chris, it might have been your mom or dad basically that was encouraging you to do things that were maybe making you feel unnecessarily anxious at first. They're saying, "Chris, it's going to be okay. You don't need to be scared. It'll be fine. You know, you'll get used to, you know, do playing a sport or petting a big dog or whatever is you're a bit nervous about initially." So, the presence of another person can be a gamecher and getting people to stay there for longer. So, the heart rate's probably going to come down, right? How long do you think that might take? >> Two hours. >> Might be. If it's a really severe phobia, it could take two hours. It might take you usually be less than an hour. It might in some cases it might even just be like 10, 15, 20 minutes if it's kind of milder phobia, right? So, let's assume that's what happens, you know, because that's generally be that's generally what we'll find maybe at least 90% of the time, right? Unless there's some kind of complicating factor. So, what happens if you manage to get a hold of this woman and you bring her back and you do the same thing the next day? >> Heart rate doesn't spike as high and doesn't stay high for as long. >> Well, you're getting better at this. You learn fast, right? So, her heart rate will go down and then day three you bring her in, it won't go up as high again. It'll come down faster. Like I like to call it like a Stegosaurus's tail, you know? like it kind of the smaller spikes and then it kind of fades over time. There's a very low relapse rate for animal phobias unless there's some kind unless you get attacked by a cat or something like that traumatizes you again. But generally speaking, if you overcome an animal phobia 90% of the time it will stay gone, right? Basic kind of Pavlovian conditioning essentially. So one of the main things the one of the foundational gold standard things in anxiety is that this process happens. It goes by various names. It's sometimes just called emotional habituation. Like it's very well established if you think about it. Animals would need to experience that for adaptation to occur. Like if you do you remember back in the day when we were all like little furry animals like we lived out in the African plains or whatever, right? So you're going to the place that you usually get your nuts and berries or whatever and a tree falls down or something and it freaks you out. like you run away and you go back again the next day, but you're kind of anxious because you don't want to get squashed by a tree, but nothing happens, right? So then you go back the next day like and maybe your anxietyy's gone down a bit and then you go back the next day and you're still not getting squashed by trees. So your anxiety goes down eventually getting nuts and berries again, right? The point being that anxiety we would hope would wear off naturally like through repeated prolonged exposure to the triggers if nothing bad actually happens. Otherwise, you'd just be trapped. But by anxiety, it wouldn't be very flexible or very adaptive. Um, and so all forms of anxiety pretty much respond to exposure. Um, with some things that's trickier, my favorite example would be social anxiety. That was my specialism years ago as a a clinician at a clinic in Harley Street in London and I mainly treated social anxiety for a long time. People with social anxiety don't have a phobia for other people's faces, right? It's not exactly the same as an animal phobia, but it's similar. Like they have more what you can describe as fear of negative evaluation is what psychologists call it. So if I have social anxiety, I'm worrying about what you might think of me and how I come across to you and what you guys might say about me afterwards and things like that. So it's more cognitive like it's kind of hypothetical. So exposure therapy is a little bit trickier in that case, right? Because I'd need to kind of expose myself to maybe embarrassing situations or expose myself to the idea that people are thinking critically of me. So exposure therapy for animal phobias has like a 90% success rate within about 3 hours now when it's done optimally. With social anxiety, it takes a bit longer, but the success rate's on average about 75%ish. Like a bit lower, but still pretty high. How's that for a crash course in anxiet? That's what I want people to know about anxiety. Those are some other things. Anyway, >> unbelievable. Um, a couple of things. Uh, first off, when you were talking about somebody in the room with you helping. >> Uh, one of the first places that my mind went to was soldiers in battle, medieval battle, being next to each other. >> That's where your mind went. Well, look, I'm I'm used to speaking to you I'm used to speaking to you about [ __ ] ancient history and swords and gladiators and stuff. Forgive me for my Pavlovian condition when speaking to you. So, uh that was the first thing that I thought of. Um the habituation thing. Um I then thought, well, what if every time that you went back to this place, a bad thing happened? Um every time that the owner comes home, the dog is mistreated. every time that you have a conversation with your partner, you're uh disappointed or made to feel sad or you're abused or neglected or whatever. The habituation works in both directions. So, it can presumably work to reinforce anxiety as well as to tune it down. >> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. like you could that will maintain your anxiety and it but if you're something really bad is happening then you might be justified in experiencing anxiety and being motivated to escape a dangerous situation right um does the other good question would be what happens if the anxiety is not really justified but it doesn't go away you know what the what might explain that the funny thing is we now know one of the main things that explains it is what psychologists tend to call experiential avoidance which because people doing things to try and avoid feeling the anxiety >> like so try to distract myself from it. Social anxiety is a good example. So again once again like so with social anxiety I might kind of avoid eye contact because looking at the audience kind of makes me more makes my anxiety spike. So I might avoid eye contact. Uh, I might overprepare before a meeting because I'm convinced that if I really prepare perfectly, then that'll kind of reduce my anxiety when I actually go into the thing. I might be concentrating on my breathing like to try and control my anxiety and or to distract myself from it. You know, there's various often self-help type techniques that people might be using to try and avoid contact or distract themselves from their anxiety or control it. We now know that those actually interfere with natural emotional processing. Like they prevent habituation [laughter] from happening. So you're sitting there thinking, I'm not I'm going to avoid eye contact with I'm just going to stare at my notes here. You'll never really get used to the anxiety, ride that out and allow it to extinguish. Then you know you kind of have to face your fears in order for your brain to process the feeling. But thing even things like breathing techniques, sometimes they work, but sometimes they can actually backfire and maintain the problem. Why >> essential? >> Because you need to allow yourself to experience anxiety for your brain to kind of process it. Like basically also if you're trying to get rid of anxiety too much, you create what we now know as a second order pro. As if it wasn't bad enough, Chris, that we've got problem. We have second order problems and third order problems, right? So social anxiety is a a classic example of a second order problem. funnily enough, it's really serving me well here because it's been a convenient example like three times in a row here, right? But I'll throw in another one to the mix in a minute. So, so with social anxiety, not only are you anxious about talking to people, you're anxious that they might see that you're anxious cuz you're like, "Oh man, I hope people don't see I'm sweating and my hands are shaking and all that. I hope they don't notice me blushing or hear me stammering because then they're going to think I'm a big old phony and I shouldn't be here." Like, you know, it's they're going to think I'm an idiot or something like that, right? So now I see anxiety itself is dangerous because it could people might judge me even more harshly. If I didn't give a monkeys, right, whether people see my hands shaking or hear me stammering, then I would I'd probably remove most of my social anxiety to be honest, right? So second order anxiety, anxiety about anxiety maintains it during exposure, can prevent it from habituating naturally. And when we when you're trying to kind of get rid of or distract yourself from anxiety, often that reinforces the underlying attitude that anxiety itself is the problem. It's dangerous. I'm now framing it as a threat >> and that can that can prevent me from overcoming it. Another different example would be panic attacks. That's like a different flavor. Got raspberry and vanilla and black currant flavor anxiety, right? Panic attacks are escalate very rapidly and they feel like they're spiraling out of control. They come in a number of varieties, but people sometimes, for example, might fear that they're having a heart attack or a stroke and they're going to drop dead. So, you see them a lot uh in accident and emergency, like people go out and they think I'm having a heart attack or something. The doctors like just anxious, buddy, like you're having a panic attack, right? >> But they feel their heart racing. >> Uh and some people will interpret that as a sign that they're going to drop dead. And of course, that's scary. So now you become anxious about the symptoms of anxiety. That doesn't sound too good, right? So it's going to spiral really fast. Your anxietyy's feeding off itself basically and then you're going to you're going to freak out. >> Um so what do you do? You have to learn to tolerate the feelings, accept them, view them uh as harmless, get used to them. Like which in in some ways is harder than it sounds, in some ways it's easier than it sounds. A big problem is the way we talk about and think about anxiety. Again, a big problem is the fact that we see it as kind of a homogeneous blob rather than kind of seeing it as made of different ingredients. So, if you think uh what is anxiety? Imagine Chris, you've got a big label and you've written the word anxiety on it and you've slapped it on your anxiety, right? And now imagine that you're peeling back the label and you're going to look underneath it and go, "What is this thing they call anxiety?" If I look underneath it, you know, actually that's one of the best pieces of advice I can give a lot of people. Just literally imagine you're peeling back the label and thinking, what is it we're talking about here in real terms? My heart beating faster. Maybe my hands shaking like maybe kind of trembling, maybe some thoughts flashing through my mind about bad things happening. >> My heart goes faster when I jog. It doesn't freak me out. If I drink a lot of coffee, my heart beats faster. That's not scary. Like if I'm really happy and euphoric, like my heart might beat faster. That's not terrifying. So why should I frame it as scary or dangerous in this context, right? So we interpret pretty benal use physical sensations in a threatening way sometimes and we can get beyond that by questioning the way that we're framing it. So learning to normalize the feelings, view them from different perspectives, uh helps us to take away the catastrophic expectations and to become more accepting of them, that allows us to habituate or to process the feelings more naturally. >> It's interesting to think about uh how intervening with the thing that's happening and pushing it away, uh I'm going to do breath work. I'm going to meditate myself away from this thing. uh I'm going to not look at the person. I'm going to expose myself to the situation but not the specific part of the situation which is what I'm concerned about. Gonna overprepared so that I try and reduce down my error rate moving forward. Um that seems to me at least from a little bit of the research I did this year like a a big element of acceptance and commitment therapy and I'm interested in the sort of whether there is something from ACT which is missing from CBT or if how you come to think about that when it's uh relating to anxiety. Well, that now we're getting pretty nerdy, right? So, I like that. Like, let's go for like ACT is a state-of-the-art form of behavior therapy, basically. But it didn't come out of nowhere, Chris. Like, it didn't spring fully armed and armored from the womb like the goddess Athena, right? It kind of evolved out of stuff that was already happening. And actually, standard CBT, Aaron T. Beex cognitive therapy. The earlier form of cognitive therapy for anxiety already I think by the 1980s or whatever was incorporating some of these kind of acceptance techniques and stuff like that. So were other therapies. So that you could see is the kind of culmination of things that were already happening in the evolving field of psychotherapy. Psychotherapy clinical psychology don't stand still. You know there's research studies coming out every day and things are naturally progressing. But the general public often don't really hear about that. they kind of things gen sort of filtered down maybe decades later. Um but I think another way of putting that would be most CBT practitioners now have progressively moved towards a broadly similar set of views about you know they maybe put slightly different emphasis on things act as part of a cluster of different therapies that are you usually lumped together under the CBT umbrella and we call them the third wave in CBT. So the first wave is early behavior therapy. The second wave is your classic Beck and Ellis kind of cognitive behavioral therapy as most people think of it. And then the third wave is sometimes called the mindfulness and acceptance stuff and ACT would be one of the leading forms of that although there's like a bunch of other variations of it. So I mean it's a lot of researchers and clinicians were kind of arriving at similar conclusions maybe putting a slightly different spin on it but thinking looks like maybe acceptance is a thing from different perspectives. We know for example that people who answer who strongly agree with the statement anxiety is bad and questionnaires that statement alone correlates with poorer mental health outcomes in the longer term. That's pretty revealing, right? But Chris, you'll notice a paradox here. Like people that come to therapy generally do think anxiety is bad. You know, in a way that's almost what they assume the whole thing is about and self-help, you know, traditionally encouraged it. So in some ways act is you know in a sense with shaking things up because certainly there's been a tendency at least you know superficially for people to assume most therapy and self-help is about getting rid of these feelings and you know figuring out ways to suppress them. I thought you were also maybe going to say, Donald, what you're saying, you're kind of sounds like you're slagging off self-help and stuff. You know, maybe some of it backfires. Um, but there are problems with self-help. I'll point to the really I'll start off by pointing out the really obvious one, Chris. Right. When I was a wee boy, that was a long time ago. You know, do you remember when everything was made of wood? That was that was when I was a wee boy, [laughter] right? And and I'd go in the bookshops. This is before the internet, right? And you know, they didn't like we didn't have we just had there was nothing in Scotland except sheep and whiskey. I'd go in the bookshops and there'd be like one or two self-help books if you were lucky. Right >> now you guys are drinking from a fire hose of self-improvement bump like 24/7. If you like, you can do courses, watch videos, you know, listen to podcasts. People consume way more self-improvement and self-help stuff than they did in the past, at least when I was growing up, right? So, you think, well, this is awesome, man. Everybody must be improved significantly. And, you know, the thing is, it wouldn't be too contentious to say they haven't improved, though. Like society consumes all this self-improvement and self-help stuff, but rates of depression, anxiety, mental health problems in general are escalating every year. Like there's no evidence that people on the whole like culturally are being improved by self-help and self-improvement content. And I think there are probably multiple reasons for that, right? But one of them is that some of the techniques that people learn are actually just maladaptive. Although I think that you know the the a more annoying point is that you could take almost any good piece of advice and turn it into bad advice. You know, so there are techniques and strategies that potentially can work, but sometimes they need like a little bit of nuance and that kind of gets lost a little bit in the messaging and so people will kind of take away maybe what could be an effective technique, but they misapply it and then it ends up backfiring for them if they're not careful. >> This episode is brought to you by Gym Shark. You want to look and feel good when you're in the gym and Gym Shark makes the best men's and girls gymwear on the planet. Let's face it, the more that you like your gym kit, the more likely you are to train. Their hybrid training shorts for men are the best men's shorts on the planet. Their crest hoodie and light gray maul is what I fly in every single time I'm on a plane. The Geio Seamless T-shirt is a staple in the gym for me. Basically, everything they make. It's unbelievably well fitted, high quality, it's cheap. You get 30 days of free returns, global shipping, and a 10% discount sitewide if you go to the link in the description below or head to gym.sh/modernwisdom. Use the code modernwisdom10 at checkout. That's jim.sh/modernwisdism and modernwisdom10 at checkout. It also could be that the modern world is anxietyinducing and that self-help is an artificial solution to an artificial problem. That how bad could it be without all of the breath work and the the the the other strategies. We I mean I was kind of I was you now you've got me thinking about medieval nights again and I was like was there world any less anxiety and just saying I think it would be pretty do you know I think it'd be scary to live before there was a police force like you got to the edge of your village and you like the briggins might come and slap my throat if I want to walk to go see my granddad you know >> well we're often told >> pirates >> we're often you get pirates as well unless you're well but you just move away from the coast right it's the same argument that's made about clim climate change, move away from the coast. Um, absolutely. I wondered then why why the chronic anxiety, chronic stress thing seems to be banded about much more in the modern world. And there's an assumption that at some point in the past, being a caveman and not having reliable reliable heat to make it through the winter, um, presumably we couldn't have been chronically stressed because we would have it would have just been so maladaptive. it would have been selected against. >> I think it it's a tricky question. It is a very good question. You know, a lot of people I think intuitively feel there is something a bit wrong with modern society in this regard. Um I feel it's lazy to blame the internet, but I can't help but feel that social media is contributing to some of our psychological problems. I think there's some evidence to substantiate that, although there's still a little bit of debate about how to interpret it. Um, we do live in a society where I think people increasing increasingly uh think about things without necessarily learning how to cope with them. Right? So, in the past, you know, people encountered threats and risks at more of a visceral kind of practical level, whereas we watch it on the news now and read about it on social media. And I think this kind of abstract kind of verbal processing is harder for us to deal with in some ways. >> We so we talked about flavors of anxiety earlier, right? Phobic anxiety >> like will tend naturally to reduce over time as long as you actually face your fears. It's a simpler type comes from a simpler age, a simpler world when we get a phobia and then you deal with your anxiety, right? But another type of anxiety I didn't mention yet is worrying, right? And by worrying, we're usually referring much more to a cognitive process. Dogs don't worry, as far as I know, but they might get phobias, right? Worrying is like a conversation that you're having with yourself. And it you stereotypically it sounds like this. What if this happens? What if that happens? How am I going to deal with it? And it goes round and round like that, you know, about hypothetical things, you know, catastrophes. Basically, worrying is a trickier problem when we have a lower success rate and treating it. Unfortunately, um it's a paradoxical thing because people can spend many hours a day worrying about stuff and you'd think again then that they may figure out solutions or they adapt to the stuff that they're worrying about. But what worrying seems to do is maintain anxiety at a kind of moderate level chronically if you're not careful. And I think social media and the news cycle and stuff like that probably feels worrying. What are the bad strategies for dealing with anxiety? If those are some of the good ones, what are some of the bad ones? >> Bad strategies for dealing with anxiety. Everybody's f this is a boring answer in a way, but everybody the number one most popular coping strategy in the world is avoidance. Right? So generally speaking, avoidance is a problem because uh it prevents habituation from happening. It prevents you demonstrating to yourself of discovering that nothing catastrophic happens, assuming it's an irrational or an unfounded fear. So you carry about certain false assumptions or unrealistic assumptions that never get disproved in practice. It prevents you from evaluating your coping ability and maybe refining and improving your coping skills basically which would be another key thing. So you face your fears enough time you kind of figure out ways of dealing with them basically. You don't get a chance to do that. You get zero practice or time on task if you're avoiding stuff and it increases uh sensitization to the the cues over time. So anxiety really is the root of all evil from a kind of uh avoidance sorry is the root of all evil. I mean that you notice the paradox here is that most people assume anxiety is the problem and maybe avoidance is a way of coping with it but it might be that anxiety in itself isn't actually that bad and that avoidance is the bigger problem, right? Because avoidance damages your life and relationships. It prevents you from applying for jobs like it changes your behavior in ways that have a wider impact and a longer term effect on your ability to flourish as a human being. You can do a lot of stuff while feeling anxious. Anxiety isn't as bad as people think, right? Once you get used to it, you think, "So what? My hands are sweating and stuff like you know my heart's beating a little bit faster." You can even reframe it as excitement. I used to say it's just an adrenaline rush like it's not a big deal. So you'll see a lot of performers will just ride out their anxiety especially comedians stand up comedians like if you go and see them live like uh I think I used to go and see a lot of shows in London and those guys often maybe the ones I saw weren't as experienced just in function rooms above bars and things like that like probably the majority of them look terrified right but they just kind of incorporated that into their act a lot of times so I think you can uh Uh first of all, we've got to deal with avoidance, right? Distraction techniques, um suppression of the feeling, uh using drugs and alcohol to cope, like compulsive behaviors like masturbation. Um but also worrying itself is kind of like a maladaptive coping strategy. >> Worrying is kind of like failed problem solving or it's kind of overlaps a bit with overpreparation and stuff like that. There's a guy called Tom Bur Borovc who's uh one basically probably the leading researcher on worry and he follows a theory called uh conceptualizing worry um as a form of avoidance. He calls it the cognitive avoidance model of worry. So people when they worry about stuff they they kind of trick themselves into thinking they're facing the problem. I've got I've got to think about this problem like to kind of I've got to figure out a solution buddy. like, "Oh, man. I'm up. I woke up at 3:00 in the morning, Chris, and I'm like just thinking about a mistake that I made in my taxes or something. I was up all night like worrying about what if this happens, what if that happens, how am I going to cope with it, try to figure out a solution?" And uh but what worrying does is it causes you to kind of jump around in an abstract way like so it prevents you from really confronting your problems in a concrete way where your anxiety would spike and then you'd get through it and it so it kind of maintains anxiety at a moderate level. So it's actually more like a kind of weird it's like avoidance in disguise. You think you're facing problems and trying to solve them, but you're not really doing it >> like and so the anxiety never really extinguishes. I I'll back that up with a weird piece of research, right? I talked to you earlier about the women with the cats. With most forms of anxiety, heart rate is a pretty robust measure. Um researchers looking at people who experience severe pathological worrying. They have GAD, generalized anxiety disorder, right? Is something called the worrying disorder. So with those people you can induce you can get them to practice worrying about stuff um induce worry episodes and you know measure their heart rate and ganic skin response the respiration and stuff like that do brain imaging and stuff and what researchers found was these people will say my level of anxiety is 100%. I'm up to high do as we say in Scotland. Like I was freaking out, right? So my anxiety is really high. Like I'm having an anxiety attack, they'll sometimes say, but the heart rate doesn't go up that much. And the other physiological signs of anxiety don't really appear like the women with a cat phobia, Chris, I pretty much guarantee you your heart rate's going to show up, right? Someone with a panic attack, pretty much guarantee you the heart rate's going to go through the roof. But somebody who's in a worry episode, the heart rate doesn't really got that. it sometimes it even goes down slightly which is pretty paradoxical right there's one symptom of anxiety that appears consistently in worry episodes and that's muscular tension so people that are worrying tend to tense up their neck and shoulders and they tense their forehead muscles like other muscles around their body as well for some weird reason like so they're kind of that's fuels the idea that maybe they're not really engaging with their fears sufficiently to actually process test them emotionally. I tell you what we tend to do with worrying that works pretty well. In the 1980s, researchers introduced a protocol, most clinicians call it worry postponement. Um, it was originally called the stimulus control method, right? And it sounds odd at first. It's it's the most effective treatments in the history of psychotherapy tend to be the simplest ones in all honesty. Not like you know Sigman Freud with his Edypus complex and interpretation of dreams and all that kind of stuff. The things that actually perform best in clinical trials are usually incredibly simple, you know, and we just kind of figure out this is like exposure therapy, right? Worry postponement. You could write the instructions almost in the back of a business card. They gave instructions to college students in the 80s and this has been replicated many times. We now use this method not only for GAD or pathological worrying but it's also used in even in treating clinical depression and treating anger like modified versions of it because it's been such a robust technique. So the instructions are you need to spot when you're beginning to worry and catch it early and then you say to yourself, I'm not in the right frame of mind to think about this right now. I'll come back to it later at a planned worry time that I've set aside like seven o'clock this evening when I like to do my worrying. Right? So, I'll maybe write down a bit of paper worrying about taxes, worrying about what I'm worrying about running out of things to say to Chris. Right? I'll write that down a bit of paper, stick it in my pocket, come back to that later, right? And then at 7:00 or wherever your prescribed worry time is, you sit down. If it's still a real problem, you sit down and problem solve it or like think about it. If it doesn't seem like it's a real thing, then you just kind of forget about it. And that's more or less all there is to the simplest version of the protocol. That reduces the frequency, intensity, and duration of worry episodes by roughly 50% within two or 3 weeks, right? You think, what the hell's going on there, right? It doesn't seem like they're really doing all that much. But the trick is that worrying feels like you're fixing a problem. But you need to understand that your brain goes into different states of functioning. It's like being drunk versus being sober or being drowsy versus being fully awake. So when anxiety is triggered, fight or flight response is triggered or whatever, you think, I'm going to I need to solve this problem urgently. But you're not in the ideal problem solving state of mind because anxiety biases your thinking. It causes you to exaggerate the severity and probability of risks. Causes you to underestimate your coping ability. You revert back to more simplistic black and white thinking because you've basically flipped a switch and turned on the emergency mode. Your amigdala is kind of like starting to hijack your thinking. So you're now thinking in low bandwidth rapid terms in extreme terms like you're not your brain isn't in the right mode of functioning to engage in problem solving especially for like complex interpersonal problems and things like that. So, that's partly why you'll go around in circles, right? But if you say, "I'll come back to this later, 7 o'clock tonight. I'm going to sit down. Uh, I'll put on my favorite worry music." Like, I'll slip into my my comfy worry slippers and put on my little uh worrying hat that I like to wear and I'll sit and have a good old think about my worries. Right? But when you're doing that now, you're using your neoortex, your prefrontal cortex, the part of your brain that's actually designed for problem solving and looking at the bigger picture and thinking rationally. So now, cuz you're choosing when you're going to do it, the trick is you're using your brain in a different mode of functioning basically. And you're probably going to think things through in a more balanced, nuanced way, and that's why it tends to work better. Some people think it seems weird to postpone thinking about problems. But if you were drunk, Chris, you just had a bottle of whiskey, right? You wouldn't sit there and think, well, this is a good time to get in my motorbike or operate heavy machinery or whatever. You think I should probably just wait until it's so up. And you might think it's not a good time to phone up my sister that I haven't spoken to for years and and have a a debate with her about our like family uh feuds and things like I might think I should wait until it's all up, right? In the same way we postpone thinking about things uh all the time like the best simplest example would be the middle of the night. So people with pathological worrying almost always have insient insomnia as well. they can't get to sleep usually like because they lie in bed worrying about stuff. Whereas normally what the normal people do, they think, "Oh man, maybe I've got something wrong in my tax returns or whatever." They think, "Yeah, but it's like 2:00 in the morning. I'll think about this tomorrow." Like, so they they kind of set shelf it and they go, "I'll come back to it later." But some people find that they can't do that. They don't have the the cognitive skills to be able to postpone thinking about things. So they they're worrying spirals out of control cuz you're half asleep as well. It's not really an appropriate time. But if you were telling your kids a bedtime story and you suddenly thought, "Oh man, like I still haven't figured out what what questions I'm going to ask Donald in that interview that I'm doing tomorrow or whatever." You wouldn't think, "Hang on kids, like let me just go away and worry about this for a bit and then when I've finished I'll come back and finish your story." you would say to the thought, I'll put pin in this and I'll come back to it later because I'm kind of busy right now. Like, so it's actually completely natural to postpone responding to intrusive anxious thoughts until a more appropriate time. But a lot of people don't know that. They don't tell kids that at school, you know, and some people just get in the habit of allowing their anxious thoughts to hijack their thinking, right? So, that simple skill alone can make a a big difference. Um and it shows you know uh worrying in a way could be seen as uh a problem of avoidance because we we're thinking about things and we feel that we're solving a problem but we're not in the right state of mind to do it and we're doing it in such an abstract way usually it's not really beneficial. >> In other news, this episode is brought to you by RP Strength. This training app has made a huge impact on my gains and enjoyment in the gym over the last 2 years now. It's designed by Dr. Mike Israel and comes with over 45 pre-made training programs, 250 technique videos, takes all of the guesswork out of crafting the ideal lifting routine by literally spoon feeding you a step-by-step plan for every workout. It guides you on the exact sets, reps, and weight to use. Most importantly, how to perfect your form so every rep is optimized for maximum gains. It adjusts your weights each week based on your progress. And there's a 30-day money back guarantee. So, you can buy it, train with it for 29 days. And if you do not like it, they will give you your money back. Right now, you can get up to $50 off the RP Hypertrophy app by going to the link in the description below or heading to rpstrength.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's rpstrength.com/modernwisdism and modernwisdom at checkout. You mentioned that some people who have anxiety struggle to be able to deploy that worry time delay strategy. What if someone says, "Okay, I realize I'm worrying too much. I have intrusive thoughts. I'm ruminating. I don't get to choose when it happens." And when I say, "I'll do this at 7:00 p.m. tomorrow." My brain goes, "Okay." And then just goes straight back to worrying about the intrusive thoughts over and over again. Well, they need to learn certain metacognitive skills or whatever you want to call like cognitive skills. Um, so they you can learn how to do that, right? They need a lot of training, right? This is the other reason self-help has some limitations cuz some of the techniques that you would learn from a therapist, I guess it would be like going to a fitness instructor or something. There's certain exercises that might benefit people, but they probably need to be taught how to do them properly and they maybe need a bit of preparation like before they kind of get fully into doing them. So they might to do worry postponement effectively, you might need a bit of preparation, a bit of coaching, a little bit of training to actually get the most out of the techniques. So short answer, they need to probably develop a skill that we call cognitive diffusion. Uh there's different names for it, right? Sometimes it's called cognitive distancing or verbal diffusion. It's a big part of ACT acceptance and commitment therapy that you mentioned earlier. There's like half a dozen or more like strategies for doing it that are commonly used in therapy. So it's an important concept. So I'll explain a little bit about it. Normally when people have thoughts they kind of look at the world through the lens of the thought. So it's like you're looking through a telescope or something, right? You're not looking at the telescope. look through the telescope like at things way off in the distance. When you're catastrophizing about the future, you're kind of looking through catastrophic binoculars or a catastrophic telescope like, "Oh man, what if that happens? That would be awful. How am I going to cope with it?" Right? So, defusion would be taking a step back and looking at the telescope. It's observing your thoughts kind of from one side almost. Or sometimes you would say it's like observing your thoughts as a process or an activity that's taking place in the present moment in your mind rather than allowing your attention to be funneled or channeled through those thoughts. It's a little bit of a weird concept at first, but in a way it's a simple concept. You know, some of the things we know about psychology are like kind of simple ideas, but we don't always have good language to articulate them. And so again, that's another reason people sometimes need a little bit of coaching to get the knack of it. But defusion is a simple thing. You could, the simplest way to do it would be just to say to yourself, right now I noticed that I'm worrying about paying my taxes, right? And that forces you into metacognitive awareness or like this kind of detached perspective observing your own thoughts and then it becomes easier to disengage from them basically. Or you might say another trick you can play is you could say uh right now I notice that Donald is having the thought what if this happens what if that happens and by that pushes me into a third person perspective by referring to myself in the third person like using my name or using like third person pronouns or whatever. I can trick myself to into stepping to one side and becoming an observer of my thoughts. Then I might say, "Right now, I notice Donald's worrying about his taxes. I don't need to think about that right now. I'll let set aside. I'm back to it later when I can give it my full attention." So again, there's a subtle point here that someone would easily turn that into an avoidance technique. But the point is to emphasize that you're going to come back to it later and give it your full attention. So you want sometimes there's a knack to turning what seems like avoidance and into its opposite into a form of acceptance. I want you to think about this properly. So, I'm going to come back to it later when I when I can give it my full attention. So, that way you're kind of afraid. You're not sending the message to your brain that you're scared of these thoughts or that they're dangerous or a problem. They're saying, "No, I want to look at them. I'm going to look at them actually more fully like in a more committed way." And that takes the that tends to create a sense of confidence and it takes the uh edge off the anxiety as well. What's the CBT process for someone who says, "I know it's irrational, but I still feel it." Right? It's gone below the neck now. It's in the body and I'm feeling it here. Look, anxiety. I've just got this kind of visceral feeling of anxiety. Well, the C I mean, different CBT practitioners will maybe say different things about that depending what flavor of cognitive therapy uh or behavior therapy they're into, right? Some people would say, "Okay, well, let's just teach you relaxation techniques then to lower nervous arousal if that's what you need." Like someone who's more behaviorally inclined would do that maybe um or coping skills. Someone like Beck in traditional cognitive therapy might say it may be that you've got automatic thoughts that you're just not fully conscious of, right? So, you need to kind of like just pay closer attention and catch those very rapid preconcious thoughts when they're flashing through your mind. Someone like Albert Ellis who's more philosophically inclined would say well your beliefs might not be fully conscious right most of our beliefs aren't they may be implicit in your behavior and in your feelings how like for example Chris how many beliefs do you have buddy >> millions millions too many probably right >> yeah so you don't count so you don't go around repeating them all in your head all of the time Hey, you've probably got loads of beliefs that you haven't even really formulated in words. They're just kind of implicit >> in your personality and your behavior and stuff. And that's what Ellis was more focused on. He'd say, you've got these underlying beliefs and attitudes that we could target. So maybe it kind of feels as if you're demanding that you have to get things right, otherwise it would be a catastrophe. Doesn't mean that you necessarily say that to yourself, but that might be how you're acting and feeling. And so those beliefs could be disputed even though they're maybe not things that are taking the the the form of conscious sentences that you're repeating to yourself, right? Or you can just, you know, some, like I said, some people might just teach you tension release um relaxation uh techniques. I feel inclined to say something about that as well. like you know just to kind of highlight there's another example of an area the guy that developed the main relaxation techniques that I used in CBT was a professor of physiology called Edmund Jacobson back in the 1920s one of the pioneers of BOF feedback and Jacobson uh studied muscle relaxation in minute detail and what he discovered was a paradox. He found that most people can relax to a kind of medium level, but then when they try to relax deeper, they actually tense up. And he said that they're committing, >> right? He said they're committing what he called the effort error. >> So they're like, I'm trying really hard to relax. God damn it. >> Yeah. >> Like and then have a rebound. >> Ancient Yeah. philosophy. >> Woo. Trying not to try way there. Yeah. you have to uh reduce the effort somehow. And so Jacobson thought well like how can you carry on relaxing but without trying to relax. And so his technique he figured out a way around that which is that you tense your muscles and you study the feelings of tension for like 30 seconds or whatever. Um and then you you let go of the tension. So you focus on tensing up first and then the feeling of letting go of that. And by doing that progressively, you should be able to let go more deeply each time. But >> why is bodily relaxation? Why is relaxing of the muscles so important? >> It tends to lower sympathetic nervous system arousal. And so it could be it's one way of potentially damping down the kind of physiological side of anxiety. But again, you know, that can sometimes that can backfire because people might use relaxation as a way to try to get rid of their anxiety. >> It's another avoidance. Maybe it could be an avoidance strategy, right? But you can I believe there's some debate about this. This is where we get into the kind of nerdville of like therapy therapist just disagreeing with things and like putting different spins on them. Arguably, you can kind of just modify it a little bit and you could say, "Well, what if the goal is to let go of the muscular tension and kind of relax into acceptance of the other symptoms of anxiety?" So, my heart's beating really fast. What if I kind of let go of what if I just think of myself as not tensing up in response to that and kind of letting go and relaxing into the feeling of my heart beating fast and the other involuntary sensations of anxiety, right? But if I think I'm trying to relax away the feelings of anxiety, that might backfire. If I imagine myself as relaxing into them, then it could actually be turned into a form of uh emotional acceptance technique. Arguably, >> obviously there's a lot of uh I guess up until maybe about 10 years ago, if we were having a conversation about anxiety, a lot of it would have felt very top down. Now I'm seeing increasing amounts of nervous system regulation, disordinia, vagus nerve stimulation, bottom up approaches to this. Um, what's your perspective on how the blend what what the proportion is of bottom up versus top down for something like worry or anxiety? >> Still I I lean more towards the cognitive perspective play. I mean I to be truthful in practice like both approaches can work right but what we lack annoyingly is we've got loads of really good research on psychotherapy but the one thing that's trickier is longer term follow-up research like a year later two years later. Um, so there is an argument that certain types of cognitive change might be more lasting like learning to regulate anxiety by relaxation techniques or acceptance techniques and things like that. Like those t those skills can be powerful and those can change your beliefs because you can prove to yourself that you're capable of coping and enduring the feelings. For example, if you apply those skills in the right kind of way, you know, they can change your thinking. Um, but they can also be ways of dealing with a problem temporarily. And then when you maybe encounter a more stressful event in the future, like that overwhelms your coping strategies, you might potentially be back to square one. Um, or you might some people might what one problem with coping skills is that people just stop using them after a while. Like so that's one of the things that we've found potentially. uh and and sometimes people get lasting benefits, you know, from managing uh how they feel. So, it varies a little bit, but cognitive and kind of behavioral changes overlap quite a lot and interact with each other. So, it can be a little bit tricky to tease them apart. But I believe say for example your underlying attitude. Albert Ellis was the one that probably went most to the extreme and trying to aim for very general underlying cognitive change. Like so Ellis would say to people, you know, not just that maybe you're exaggerating how bad particular situations are or you're misinterpreting them, which is one way of doing cognitive work. Um, but Ellis would say, "Are any situations really intrinsically awful?" Like, are you making a kind of error by like projecting subjective values onto external situations? Are you causing that by imposing rigid demands like that I almost must succeed and I must never make mistakes for example that are bound to make you feel anxious about your performance. So Ellis thought these kind of rules that people have that shape their character and their feelings in a very general way needed some attention. And it may be like that that has more general benefits and more lasting benefits than the more kind of coping skills or emotional self-regulation kind of approach that that you're talking about. >> It's not just how you feel, it's how you think. Why is that why is that such an important sentence? Because emotions aren't just like a blob of energy. Like they're they're cognitive, you know, they're intertwined with our thinking. And we have a lot of control over our thoughts and beliefs. We can change them. Like we as soon as we realize that our anxiety often like is very closely intertwined with catastrophic thinking for example, we open up a whole toolbox of cognitive therapy techniques that allow us to begin working on that. We can change our perspective. We can challenge our beliefs like we can write different scripts. We can gain verbal diffusion or cognitive distancing. Oh, we we have a much bigger toolbox of techniques that we could potentially use then for a start. And also, it might be that somebody, for example, manages their anxiety, but they could still have other problems. Like, they might still be exhibiting avoidance. So, you get guys that like, I don't I don't really feel any anxiety anymore cuz I drink so much whiskey. Like, I'm pretty much [laughter] anxietyfree. Like, you go. But, you know, you've got you've got other problems now. And also you're still kind of avoiding like I don't know asking girls out on dates or whatever it is you know like you've got kind of false courage. It's not you know it's not really benefiting you in other ways. Um so addressing the cognitions can sometimes help us to get more deep and pervasive improvement especially if we go for these real underlying attitudes by certain um tendencies that are very very common that we all exhibit. Um I'll give you an example. You know you could work on anger management with people and teach them coping skills like spot when your anger's beginning to arise. catch it really early, nip it in the bud. Uh, take three deep breaths to kind of downshift your nervous arousal a bit to put your prefrontal cortex back in control. Buy yourself some time like so that you can think of a different way to respond. There's a kind it's kind of coping skills approach, right? But you might still think um if somebody uh insults me then that just means that they're a total jerk, right? If Chris says something I don't like, it means he's an [ __ ] >> right? So I might have a tendency there's a tendency cognitively in anger to uh reduce people's personality to a single negative trait. >> Is that similar to the fundamental attribution error? Yeah. I guess it's, you know, maybe it's related in some ways. It feels like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> It's a kind of I guess it's related to to attributional style in a sense. Um, it's also related to philosophers have written about it. Um, many different authors have approached it from different perspectives. >> So, you could describe it as a form of objectification of the other person as well. We don't really perceive them anymore as a living, breathing human being. If somebody's just an [ __ ] right, just an idiot or just a jerk. They're not really a fully formed human being in our eyes anymore. So that kind of distorts the nature of our relationship. And you might some people, especially angry people, will tend to think that that's fine. He is a total jerk, right? And the I think the best way to respond to that is it's one of the reasons that when people get angry, their problem solving ability tends to be impaired. So if you can't empathize with people or put yourself in their shoes, you can't really anticipate their actions or understand their motivations. So it makes it pretty hard to actually deal with them effectively or negotiate with them or problem solve. you're going to basically be stuck with pretty crude and simplistic solutions like punching the guy in the face or something like that, you know. So that reductionist way of looking at people um individually also you could argue affect society as a whole. You know, we maybe think of whole other nations and groups of people in a reductionist way sometimes. So social psychologists um and you know other researchers have talked about this kind of objectifying tendency as being the basis of a a more serious problem which is called dehumanization. Um throughout history, you know, people have had moral codes. Um you know, most societies agree that it's wrong to steal from people or to kill them. Um with one exception, which is if they if they don't count as fully fleshed human beings, then it's fine. >> Yeah. >> Right. In the ancient world, those were barbarians. So the Greek word barbaroy, do you know what it means originally? Like >> uh rodent, nonhuman, vermin. >> No, it's better than it's onatopic, Chris. Right. It means people that go bar >> sheep. >> No, it just mean just literally it means people that talk nonsense. >> Oh, okay. >> Like it means people that sound like they're going blah blah. >> Hey, look, forgive me. Forgive me for thinking that people who go blah blah blah are sheep because animals who go >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Animals that go bar blah blah blah are sheep. >> Correct. >> But the Greeks thought that's what barbarians sounded like. Like they because they don't It means people that don't speak Greek. >> Do we not see this with the Nazis? They used this disgusted language toward Jews. They were rodents. They were vermin. Yeah. >> Yeah. So they don't count. moral consideration doesn't extend to them because we've dehumanized them. They're less than human and that means anything goes like morality. We might have a very sophisticated morality that we can sit and debate till the cows come home, but it doesn't apply to those guys because they're not humans. Also, slaves generally throughout history were treated as less than human. So, rules didn't really apply to them. Um, and in some cases maybe children or women in some societies aren't extended moral consideration in the same way, but there sometimes criminals, they don't count. They don't have any rights or whatever. They're not really human or you know, so you could trace that back arguably to certain features of anger. Um, so you could say, well, we can teach coping skills to manage anger, but are we then really addressing the tendency to treat individual traits that people have is defining their entire character negatively. It's very reductionist way of viewing other people. It tends to lead to a lot of problems. If you think that's a problem dealing with other people, we get angry with ourselves a lot as well. M >> you can get angry with other people, but you can get angry with inanimate objects like your laptop not working. You can get angry with yourself as well. People love getting angry with themselves. >> Mhm. >> Right. And they do the same thing. So they go, "I'm such an idiot. I'm completely useless." Like, and they'll self flagagillate, self-castigate using these what psychologists sometimes call global negative ratings of value or global negative labels. Right? I'm just useless. I'm an idiot. I'm crap. I'm incompetent. Um, I like to refer to that as the world's worst self-improvement technique. It's incredibly popular. Like, everybody does it to some extent. But if you had a classroom full of little kids and I don't know, they were studying for a math exam and all the kids kind of got one of the questions wrong, you wouldn't go back the next day and say, "Listen kids, I had a look at your answers to that exam." And basically the problem is that you're all just a bunch of complete idiots essentially. Like that's where that's where you went wrong here. Like so go away and have a a think about that. You might if you know, but you probably wouldn't be a very good teacher. Constructive feedback tends to encourage people have for having made an effort. It tends to reinforce the bits that they did right >> and then it tends to be pretty specific about what you did wrong and nudge you in the direction of finding a better solution. It's not rocket science, right? But saying you're all just a bunch of idiots, it's kind of like trying to climb on glass then. like you kind of go what am I supposed to do? So the solution to that would be get a personality transplant or something like that. You know it's what am I supposed to do about that? It's paralyzing >> if you tell it's highly demotivating generally speaking. So we don't usually do that. It's not a technique I say to my clients. This isn't a known self-improvement technique. There aren't books that you can buy on the self flagagillation method of self-help. Like it's not something that I do in coaching unless you would like me to start. You know I guess we could give it a go. Mhm. >> How do you think it would work out? But it's something that people do to themselves when they're angry with themselves. And it tends to backfire in a number of different ways, but it's essentially making the same error as when we objectify, dehumanize other people in anger. And so again, the coping skills won't necessarily fix that. They might snap you out of it, but it would be potentially more useful if you addressed that at a cognitive level to make sure you kind of mop up any tendency towards that thinking error. This episode is brought to you by Whoop. I have been wearing Whoop for over 5 years now, way before they were a partner on the show. 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You can get the brand new Whoop 5.0 and that 30-day trial by going to the link in the description below or heading to join.woop.com/modernwisdom. That's join.woop.com/modernwisdom. whoop.com/modern wisdom. What are the differences between beliefs and feelings? Are they are they an an important distinction between those two? >> It's hard to define what's meant by feelings, you know, this and also some of these concepts are really debated to this day by a lot of contemporary uh psychologists. So, and also we partly because in English we use some of these words quite vaguely >> and interchangeably >> and and we can use them interchangeably. I would say that generally speaking if we're talking we we might by feelings we might mean physical sensations >> um or you might be talking about emotions for example particularly if we're talking about emotions generally speaking I would say there's probably quite a pronounced cognitive element there'll be a lot of beliefs tied up in them and throughout history people have defined emotions cognitively the stoics did they sat down and wrote almost like kind of dictionary definitions. They say anger is the desire for revenge. Fear is the belief that something bad is about to happen and that you should flee from it. >> Like and so they >> Well, I just to interject there, I can see the desire for doing that because when you think about what a feeling is in your body, you have some sort of an emotion. It is this global foggy slippery ephemeral [ __ ] morphing and mutating thing. And >> you know I I use this bit in my live show where actually I don't anymore, but I used to where I was talking about why >> you could understand why the ancients would think that mortals were the gods play things. Because rage doesn't just feel like some neurochemical imbalance inside of my brain and body. It feels like I've been possessed, imbued with this, you know, strange like parasite demon thing that's taken over me or oh the deep depression, you know, it's sort of it's weight that gravity is heavy. It's more than the sensation. And I think that the desire to try and bring into the um easily communicated transferable Oh, when you say that, >> do you mean the same thing as me? Me and you have never had to have a debate really over whether that football is a ball. Well, you know, when you say ball, that's what I mean when you say ball. Yeah, of course, cuz you can touch it, feel it, and assess it. But because it's so internal and so uh challenging to show objectively to other people, you need a way of being able to exchange and and communicate this. >> Yeah. And and arguably that's how we figure out how to use the words is by having some kind of definition that our society agrees on. You sound like an effective neuroscientist. So sometimes they'll say, you know, the the kind of raw a effect that emotions are are are built out of that some psychologists will say it's like color words like red and blue, right? How do I know that what I mean by red is the same as what you mean by red? Maybe what I mean by sadness is different from what you mean by sadness except that we can associate it with certain kind of stereotypical patterns of behavior and things that people say. You know, even then there might be some exceptions. So somebody might be really sad and fake a smile, right? So it can be like tricky, but we do we do have these kind of rough templates that we apply in order to apply in order to know how to use the concept. >> But it is to this day psychologist still argue about this quite a lot. I want to make it you reminded me of a distinction that I think is important though that I wanted to to emphasize. Um, and it's something I'll talk a little bit about the Stoics because I think the Stoics got a lot of things right. Did you know what um what do you what do you think is the first ever book on psychotherapy? >> On psychotherapy. You're going to tell you're going to tell me it's [ __ ] epictus or someone. >> Yeah, it's [ __ ] epictitus. >> You tried to catch me. >> It goes it goes back even further than that. There's a >> This is But this is kind of nerdy and cool, right? There's a lost book by Chrisipus, the third head of the Stoic school called the lo the lost therapeuticon, right? Like the Necronomicon or something. >> Okay. >> Right. And it was probably in a sense the first ever book on psychotherapy. So Epictitas and Senica and those guys had had probably read it. It was very well known back in the day. Um and we we know a bit about it cuz there are fragments of it preserved in other authors like Galen Marcus Aurelius's physician goes on about it and quotes quite a lot from it. So the the Stoics got a lot of things right and one of the things that the Stoics said I said earlier a big problem is like we start off at a disadvantage because we think of emotions in this kind of vague way right it's just like a blob of energy or whatever and for a start emotions are generally speaking much more cognitive than that implies and there's probably a mixture of phases to them and different ingredients and stuff. The more knowledge is power, the more we understand about emotions, the more we can kind of control them, do something with them. But another really important distinction would be to say maybe there are kind of involuntary aspects to emotion. We all agree about that, but there maybe there are more voluntary aspects as well or bits that could potentially be brought under voluntary control. I was kind of implying that a bit earlier when I even when I was talking about relaxation, >> you know, and anxiety. So the muscular tension part of from the the physical side of anxiety is semivoluntary >> like so it's a kind of bracing response like you tense those muscles. You're not doing it on purpose, but you can actually let go of some of that tension if not all of it. Like so you have some voluntary control over it. If you're like breathing rapidly, to some extent, you could potentially slow down your breathing, right? But you don't have complete control over it. You can't directly control your heart rate and some of the other things that are going on. So, there's bits of what's happening that you have very little control over. There's bits that are easily under voluntary control, and then there's other bits that are maybe in this kind of gray zone somewhere in the middle. It's kind of like semi under your control basically. So, that's where it gets a little bit fuzzy. So acceptance strategies you're going to have to use for the stuff that you can't control. Right? If I'm anxious and my heart's beating fast, I don't really have much choice but just to accept the feeling and ride out really. >> You know, distraction techniques and suppression techniques, stuff like that don't really work that well. So probably I'm going to have to accept it. If I have an automatic thought, oh my god, what if I get hit by a bus tomorrow and die? I can't unthink it. Like it's too late. I've already had the thought. So to some extent I just need to accept the presence of that thought and kind of detach from it and just not elaborate on it. But like we were saying about worrying. Worry is a good example because often people >> what people tend to do is they try to take too much control and struggle against the bits of an emotion that are automatic. So that's like banging your head against the wall. >> But they neglect to take responsibility for the aspects that are under voluntary control. So choosing to stay in the room with a cats is largely under your voluntary control. As behavior therapists sometimes say it's a thing you do with your arms and legs, right? You can literally move one foot in front of the other, right? So it's it's basically that's voluntary. You can control that, right? Even though it might feel like you can't, but basically those are voluntary movements. The worry pisponement is largely voluntary. You can choose not to continue having a conversation. the automatic thought might keep coming back of course but then each time it does you can just go I'll come back to this later you don't have to have a conversation about it >> is this you mentioned that the stuff that can be written on the back of a business card >> uh tend to be the most effective strategies >> I have to assume that that's because even if there was something more effective compliance and the ease of the patient to be able to recall what it is that they're supposed to do has got to be probably the single biggest determinant about if you don't it doesn't matter how great a technique is if you don't do it. Basically, >> that could be that's a problem in some areas of psychotherapy because there are techniques that work well in clinical trials and then sometimes clients like doing them and then there's other techniques that people hate doing and have a very high dropout rate. >> What what is a what are some of the examples of techniques that are very successful but people [ __ ] hate? exposure and response prevention for OCD, obsessivempulsive disorder. It's like one of the most effective techniques for someone who's got bacteria phobia, which is like a form of OCD. You'd get them to kind of put their hand in toilet water and things like that or, you know, like lick the bottom of their shoe or whatever, like expose themselves to things that they think have got bacteria. If they do that repeatedly, like eventually they'll habituate to it. They'll prove to themselves that nothing catastrophic happens. like and it has a very high success rate but it's so aversive that that approach like in real world settings often has a very high dropout rate. So we're like, "Oh man, we know that if you did this, you would get over your anxiety, but it's really hard to kind of drag people kicking and screaming sometimes into >> presumably that would be a place for something like a retreat or a uh an intensive, you know, if you said, "Hey, uh, your OCD is stopping your life. Come and live at this retreat for four weeks and we will slowly coach you through it because we know that your compliance on your own would be Yeah. It would [laughter] >> What a great way to spend the summer. >> Yeah. big OCD hotel like something like that. >> Yeah, I >> that would be fun. >> Yeah, >> they there are I definitely think there are advantages. Uh I mean sometimes I thought the main way that we could improve traditional psychotherapy would be just not doing it in a consulting room for an hour like on a weekly basis with the client like but I think breaking out of the consulting room in some ways you know rather than just coming up with loads of different variations of things that we can do in a consulting room like would potentially open up a lot of opportunities and I researchers and and clinicians do do that to some extent. M >> um they do group stuff. They take clients out on kind of ex behavioral exercises out of the I used to take clients who had uh social anxiety into Starbucks or whatever and like I'd spill my coffee or whatever or like I'd get them to practice going up to people in the street and asking them what year it was and you know these are kind of typical shame attacking or like behavioral experiments that we get people to do but you have to at the consulting room to do that which is sometimes a little bit tricky to organize. I went into so many shops in Oxford Street um and told them with clients that had IDs, one of their problems is they have almost a phobia often of uh but not always of uh losing control of their bills or whatever, needing to use a bathroom, not being able to do it. So, I used to go around and go into shops and with the client and say, "Listen, I'm really embarrassed. I've kind of had an accident, chat myself, like, is there any chance I could possibly use your washroom?" The clients would be like, "There's no way I'm doing that, >> you know?" But then I say, "Well, that's like a red rag to a bull when it comes to exposure therapy because then we should probably do it. Like, if you could do it though >> and it didn't bother you at all, like what difference would that make?" you can they say, "Well, yeah, like I wouldn't really have a problem anymore. I like deal with a lot of my problem." >> I figured out earlier I said with social anxiety, it can be tricky to get people to expose themselves to the fear of negative evaluation because it's more conceptual, hypothetical, like people might criticize me. But I figured out a way to do it. There's a bunch of ways you can do it, but my favorite way of doing it was that I'd go into like a coffee shop or a restaurant or whatever and I'd walk into the middle of the room and I'd say, "Excuse me, everyone. Excuse me. Uh, I was in here earlier and I think I might have left my book behind that I was reading and I just wondered if anybody's found it lying around. It's called How to Overcome Social Anxiety, Blushing, and Shyness." like has anybody seen a copy of overcoming social anxiety, blushing, and shyness lying around? And my social anxiety clients would say, "There's not a cat in hell's chance that you're going to get me to do that." And I said, "Well, I'll do it first, right? And you can come and watch me." And then you're like, "When we get bored doing that, it could be your turn and you can start doing it." And once you've done it even just three or four times, usually it gets the novelty off. I don't really care anymore. But when people prove to themselves that they can do that like and experience the kind of self-consciousness but not really be freaked out by it, it's often very liberating. Ellis, do you know what Ellis used to do? He get people to go to the shops and buy a banana and a bit of string and there's you can look this up. There's videos of people doing it on YouTube, right? and they tie uh a bit string around the banana and they they walk around the shopping mall like it was a dog is what you call a shame attacking exercise. So people who are very shy or self-conscious but like there's no way I'm going to do that. But by doing it and forcing themselves to get over themselves that can often have earthshattering effects on liberating people from >> I mean look you know when we when we look at uh some of the solutions from history the witch's brew of eye of n and tail of frog and such uh string and piece of banana uh doesn't sound actually all that all that much more insane. So who knew >> many of these techniques existed in the ancient world like so I was going to say the Stoics have this much more they start right out the gate with a more philosophical sophisticated understanding of emotion first of all they're like emotions are cognitive then they're like but there are these there's a proto emotion they call it the propaththea so there's the initial physiological reaction and initial automatic impression that precedes full-blown emotion So you could say there's anger and proto anger. So the stoics say well proto anger is neither good nor bad. You know you just need to kind of tolerate it basically but not get sucked into it and allow it to escalate. And so for example one of the big debates about anger is is it good or bad? Is it h could it ever be healthy and stuff like that. You know for the stoics they helped to solve that problem by saying the automatic part of anger at the beginning is like neither good nor bad really. You know what matters is the use that you make of it, how you you interpret it. Um but then the passion where you buy into the distorted thinking and start to believe it is kind of inherently problematic because it's not very like Senica said it's temporary madness. you're not you're now handing over your thinking to a bunch of assumptions that are flawed right right out of the gate basically. So that that's problematic. But the stoics had these techniques like um you know the cynics who were the Stoics kind of cousins. Stoic stoicism and cynicism were sort of overlapping traditions. Mhm. >> The cynics used to tie a bit of string around the the neck of a bottle and walk around the caramicus the where all the prostitutes worked uh in Athens. Like they had a bunch of they called them shamelessness exercises. >> Yeah. Hang on. Hang on. >> Really similar. >> Hang on. Tie a piece of string around the neck >> the neck of a bottle >> and then walk making it make a noise behind. >> Yeah. Well, I guess like it's walking a dog like you know >> around prostitutes. >> A bottle dog around prostitutes. >> Yeah, it was a graveyard in Athens. The prostitutes used to work in the graveyard, weirdly. But so it's both you like it's both the graveyard and where the prostitutes would hang out. >> Ah, the end of life and the creation of it as well before reliable contraception. How fantastic. >> Yeah. So that these are some of the things that I think we can learn from ancient philosophy that we end up kind of reinventing. >> Graveyard, prostitute, piece of string, bottle. That's >> yeah, that's all you need to know basically [laughter] in terms of coping. Uh, you know, I should give people I let me give you some work instructors. >> No, these are these are great. These are better. These are I mean, look, people listen to lots of podcasts, including this one, and they don't always remember everything. I can promise you they will remember a story about a piece of string in a bottle being dragged through a graveyard filled with prostitutes. >> Let me tell you I'll tell you the many ways in which the stoics highlighted some of the things that are actually important that benefit people who are trying to do it's why also why self-help doesn't always work right. So number one, the clients that I work with, one of the main things that I notice is you can think of therapy and behavior psychology terms is often about skills acquisition and skills application, right? So you learn how to do relaxation techniques or repeat coping statements or whatever or you learn how assertive communication and then you actually use it under stress in difficult challenging situations repeatedly. Right? I think the balance has shifted over time in the clients that I see and now because they're consuming this kind of fire hose of self-help information. >> Uh almost all my clients are male, right? Uh, so the guys that I see often have loads of skills >> that they've learned. They're all doing journaling. They all do mindfulness meditation. Like they've all got their affirmations and whatnot, but there's often a massive deficit in terms of skills application, right? So the skills become compartmentalized or as I like to say, they kind of leave it on their yoga mat or whatever, you know, they leave it in their journal. Mhm. >> So, what benefit does it do someone if they practice journaling for 10 minutes every morning and they're kind of working on their thoughts, but then they go out the door and they stop thinking about that and just revert back to negative thinking all day long for the rest of the day. And >> I certainly know I mean I I certainly know that I did that for a very long time. So, yeah. So, I hate to break it to you kids, but if you want to actually improve, I know I like I like these situations. There's so many situations in life where you think, "Ah, you could do this or you could do that." There's one or two situations where I think I know of no other solution, right? There's a few times in therapy where I think I in all honesty, I can only figure out really one two things. Well, there's one main thing really that you're going to have to do here, which is you would have to have some kind of ongoing mindfulness or self-observation throughout most of the day in order to be assured that you're going to be applying your skills consistently. Otherwise, you'll just compartmentalize them. So, you'll be really good at doing your meditation and your journaling and then potentially it just kind of goes out the window when you go to the office and start interacting with people. Um, or you might not even notice that you're thinking negatively and practicing like avoidant ways of uh dealing with things, you know, unless you're observing what you're doing maybe not all day long but pretty consistently, right? The Stoics knew that. They called it pro. So they had this idea of watching yourself and paying attention to how your thoughts, feelings, and actions were interacting to avoid this problem of Epictitita says to his students, "You guys are like lions in the school and foxes in the streets, >> right? You've kind of you're talking the big talk about stoicism, >> but then as soon as you go out the door, it all goes out of the window. There's only one solution to that, which is that you'd have to practice continually and be constantly observing yourself. Like the Buddhists do. They practice continual mindfulness throughout the day. The Stoics had exactly the same idea. But the people that I work with today, like most of them, they see self-improvement as something that's highly compartmentalized. And I think that's a form of avoidance in a way. And so, they don't also practice facing their fears. Again, it's unlikely people will do that unless a therapist or coach or a friend or a parent is encouraging you to do it, unfortunately, right? And the Stoics knew that as well. So, they said, "Look, you have to go and endure voluntary hardship and get out of your comfort zone to some extent if you want to do self-improvement, but you should also use your imagination. Use your noggin, right? And visualize anticipating in advance. They call this premeditatio malorum." Like so the premeditation of adversity or bad things. The stories say every day you should imagine death, exile, poverty, illness, all of the common problems that can befall people and practice responding to them with a philosophical attitude. So people are like, well, I don't really I can't really bother doing that. Right? But if you don't force yourself in your imagination to face potential catastrophes, then you'll meet them unprepared. Basically, you're you're practicing the skills, but you're not really it's like a you're doing your boxer training, right, in the gym, but you're never getting into the ring, >> practice like sparring or fighting anybody, right? Just so it's like you need to get in the ring like at least in your imagination. Like that's like sparring and then out in the real world actually pushing out your comfort zone a little bit, facing things >> like otherwise you get what I sometimes call a pen and paper problem. So people are kind of like on paper good at doing self-improvement stuff like using coping skills, meditation and things like that, but it never really gets applied in practice. Trust really is everything when it comes to supplements. 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That's limme n us.com/modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. It's an interesting challenge because the the compartmentalization I certainly know for me I relied on a morning routine for [ __ ] ages and that was nine gratitude meditation journals in a row every like six months worth nine of them and like thousands of sessions of meditation and breath work and reading and notetaking and yin yoga and all of this stuff. Um, but I was very much treating it like because it's so detached from the situations that you use it in. Like you think about something that you're grateful for or that you're hopeful for or your plans for the day or whatever, but then when something to be grateful for or to not be fearful for or a plan for the day appears, you're not in the same location mind space like regulation like signature. You're not feeling that. So taking it off the cushion as it's known in meditation is uh that is the skill and that's the same as what we said before if you can write it on the back of a business card your compliance and therefore your application are going to go up >> you get state specific learning or it gets compartmentalized >> much better way to put it >> um so the most effective treatment for example we talked a little bit about anger and that's I said that's kind of like my hobby at the moment >> are you still doing your are you still doing your book on anger I'm doing I'm working on it's going to take forever, right? But I'm working on a book about anger. It's going to be like the greatest book ever written on anger basically because >> if anyone's going to do it, I back you to do it. >> I'm going to do I'm going to write a book all about anger. It's my favorite thing. Like it's quite a exciting emotion like it's colorful. So there's a lot of interesting things and we have this whole book by Senica called on anger which is really good like about what the stoic said about anger. And we can compare that to CBT. CBT for anger works pretty well. Like it's actually here's something about for your self-improvement audience, right? Anger uh the success rates in treating anger with CBT are about uh 70% mean uh success rate in terms of like measures of clinical significant cl clinically significant improvement. It's about it's about a 70% rate across the board. the largest meta analyses like these are studies that combine statistically lots of RCTs like randomized control trials. It's the gold standard for doing clinical research. The there are about 50 in the main ones. I think more recently there are about like 70 individual studies that they pull data from and from that they have like a a mean success rate of roughly 70%. So interesting bit of trivia for you, right? CBT for anger has a higher success rate than CBT for depression or PTSD or a bunch of other common problems. Right? People with PTC, PTSD and depression often have anger problems. Right? So there's a lowhanging fruit argument which would be you should treat the thing first that has the highest success rate potentially. >> Ah because it's going to make everything else after that become a little bit easier. It's a blockage that you've managed to get rid of more quickly. >> Yeah, you'll get some kind of knock-on benefit, but also you become more skilled at using the techniques and your confidence grows in using the techniques that you're learning, right? So, it tends to start a domino effect, right? So, the there's an argument there like there's there's good reason to argue that in many cases it might be an idea with people that have anger and other problems to target the anger first. The another argument when you're prioritizing things clinically is you might go for low hanging fruit fruit. You might also go for dealing with something that's most urgent. Well, you know, it's anger potentially is an urgent problem because it can lead people to harming themselves, harming other people, destroying their relationships. Like, so you get potentially more bang for your buck in therapy terms by fixing that problem. Like, because the consequences of not fixing it might potentially be worse in many cases. Not always, like, but it's a serious contender for thinking we should probably do something about that first before your wife divorces you, right? Or you or you traumatize your kids or get yourself killed in a road rage incident or something like that. So, you might say, "Well, hang on a minute. uh people, guys out there that are drinking from this fire hose of self-help stuff online and self-improvement, maybe they should be targeting their anger. Like, I think of it in some ways as the sort of royal road to self-improvement. It's maybe one of the areas where there's the most room for improvement. It's the forgotten problem, the forgotten emotion, because for a start, and why would that be, right? You don't see that much self-improvement content about anger. Get a few anger management books, but it's a drop in the ocean, buddy, >> right? People generally ignore it because it's an externalizing emotion. There's something about the very nature of anger that makes people say, "If I'm angry, Chris, I'm going to think you need therapy, not me, buddy." Right? It's because it's all your fault that I'm upset, obviously, right? Cuz you're a jerk. Like, you didn't send me a Christmas card. Now I'm pissed off. It's your fault. you should be in therapy, not me. So angry people tend not to self-reer for treatment and they tend not to use self-help unless their anger reaches a kind of critical point and then often it's at the behest of someone else like their wife says you need to go and do something about your anger or their >> what anger >> what anger or [laughter] in prisons or in schools like in institutions people get sent for anger management or a court might mandate it right angry people are often kind of >> kicking and screaming like they can be reluctant to have it. So they're like soap dodgers in therapy term. They're therapy soap dodgers, right? Generally speaking, but that means that it's like an untapped ve like it's the biggest opportunity. We have a high success rate and working with it. So it's like low hanging fruit, but they're avoided doing anything about it. >> You have to identify that you have anger problems, though. Two uh examples come to mind here. So I did um a big retreat. I I keep telling this story because it blew my mind. probably going to be it's probably going to be the thing that I remember one of the lessons that I remember most from this year. Um do this big retreat. It's 12 hours a day, 7 days of deep emotional work with a coach who I trust uh unbelievably deeply who's been on the show a ton called Joe Hudson. I think you'd love him. And um uh small very small group completely sober. And uh one of the days was anger. And I'm looking at like the other days. I'm looking at sadness. I'm looking at grief. If I'm looking at, you know, some of the other emotions, one of the dates was anger. And I was looking at the anger day and thinking, ah, no, like, you know, maybe there's a whatever, whatever. I was the first person to like move from the the initial part to the second part of anger. And I was up before anybody. And I was like, maybe I'm more angry than I thought. Maybe I'm more because I don't I don't present as an angry person. But Joe then told this story. He told this [ __ ] wonderful story and he said, "Um, my daughter was nine and she was crying in the bathtub and she'd done it a couple of times this week." I went in and spoke to her and I said, "Why are you crying in the bathtub?" Like, and she says, "Because I'm sad." She's like, "You don't sound sad. You sound pissed off." And she went, "I am." Said, "Okay, you know, when you're crying in the bathtub, how how often are you sad and how often are you pissed off?" She says, "About half the time." She's like, "Well, if you're pissed off about half the time, how come you cry 100% of the time?" She said, "Well, when I'm mad and when I'm pissed off, when I'm angry, my sister runs away, but when I'm sad, she comes and gives me a hug." And it just blew my mind the sort of pro-social nature of sadness when you can convert anger into it and the antisocial nature of anger. I thought that was so [ __ ] cool. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's like it it's it's sneaky like and it's often hidden and anger often as well is a way of coping like people use anger as a way of dealing with other feelings. Aaron Beck, the founder of cognitive therapy, he wrote a book called Prisoners of Hate. It's a really good book about anger. And he said that most of the clients that he asked who had anger problems initially, yeah, they didn't uh maybe it was like 50/50 whether they thought their anger was in response to something else. But Beck was really into getting people, as I mentioned earlier, to spot the automatic thoughts and record them very carefully. And he said that when he trained people to observe their feelings very closely, almost all of the clients with anger that he spoke to noticed there was a preceding emotion that came before it that they were using their anger to cope with. Sometimes anger can be turned into other emotions, but very often it's another emotion like being hurt. Like I said earlier, Chris didn't send me a Christmas card like and I'm really mad about it. But probably at first like I I was hurt, right? In many cases, people are ashamed, they're hurt, they're anxious, and then anger actually t so we we think of emotions in this kind of homogeneous way, but in many cases, anger and other feelings, but anger's a one of the worst contenders for this is used as a sort of coping strategy. It's a way of dealing. And I'll tell you a weird thing about it is one of the ways that anger helps people to cope. When people are anxious, they often activate scheme as a helplessness, right? So they momentarily they feel kind of like oh what the [ __ ] am I going to do like helpless anger makes you feel powerful >> right but it it's kind of an illusion in a way it's like Dutch courage or whatever >> like you know you're just it's magical thinking you're tricking yourself into feeling more in control and more powerful than you are nothing has changed about the situation but you feel like so committed to taking action and fighting back that it gives you this kind of surge right and it conceals or compensates for it overcompensation in many cases for feelings of powerlessness and helplessness. I'm going to take back control of this situation, but getting really angry. And it also one of the most dramatic things about it is it shunts all of your attention outward. Like so it it this is a very simple way of putting it and you know I I'd be interested to know you know what your uh your audience think of this. In some ways anger very simply functions like a distraction technique. Like if I get really angry, then I'm not really paying attention to how hurt I am anymore because I'm just thinking about like how I'm going to deal with you. Like what a jerk you are. And maybe I should >> I don't need to reflect. >> Yeah. I don't need to I I'm not even feeling my pain anymore cuz all of my attention has literally been diverted away from it like externalized like so it's a big fat distraction technique in many cases. >> Yeah. I wonder it seems like anger kind of goes in one of two directions. People get angry when they should be doing something else and people feel something else when they should be feeling angry. Like some people flee from anger and some people suck it in and use it to avoid feeling other stuff. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It's often the case. So, we have to look very closely at our feelings and try and understand what's going on with them. You know, are they covering they're very often like covering up something else. very often they're functioning in a kind of defensive way and really understand you know what's actually going on. I'll tell you well I was going to talk about like very simple techniques and what I mentioned earlier like some of the most effective techniques and maybe this is another reason that people don't get as much benefit from self-help is they can't see the wood from the trees problem right and the most effective advice is often so benal and so simple you know it's strange you kind of come back to simple things you come back to the beginning but recognize it for the first time and you think maybe it really does boil down to something as simple as just doing this. M >> so one of the most effective strategies for anger is just catching it early, >> noticing the early warning signs of it, but at an earlier stage than you would typically spot it like and then accepting the initial feelings like so say feelings of being hurt by somebody uh diminishing you or disregarding you or not respecting you or whatever and accepting those feelings and sitting with them for a bit longer than normal so that you have time to process them, right? And it might in some cases be like 30 seconds, you know, but there's nothing that's an incredibly minimal technique. Just pause and notice what the feeling is that's coming before anger. So, you'll get like a an urge to start blaming the other person or yelling at them. Sit with that urge and with the feelings that surround it for just like a bit longer than normal. And you might go, "Man, my feelings are really hurt cuz Chris doesn't send me a a Christmas card." But then that might be long enough for me just naturally to think I didn't send him a Christmas card or you know who gives a [ __ ] about Christmas cards, right? And for natural spontaneous cognitive reappraisal to happen for instance or for the feelings to peak and then naturally kind of like wayne again, right? But if I launch immediately into anger, I never have an opportunity to process or reappraise those initial feelings. And it it might only it might only take a minute or less, you know, for me just to give myself a chance, you know, to really experience what it is that the anger's covering up and process it like so that it's not as much of a problem anymore. >> Why did you give up on psychoynamic and psychoanalytic therapy after so long? >> That was ages ago. We're going back a ways now. Like so I started off doing psycho uh I did a master's degree in psychoanalytic theory and this is like 25 years ago or something and I practiced psychonamic therapy for like a year. The reason that I I there were multiple reasons why I quit. I wonder some of them maybe I can't share in public. like I got a bit disillusioned with my own personal training analysis and with uh the approach that I was studying and also some of the stuff that I was reading. Um the last book the last journal article that I read I can remember vividly uh the last article I read was by a very like a well-known psychoanalytic theorist who wrote an article about uh sublimated anal masturbation. [laughter] We believe and he believed that golf, >> okay, >> is a form of sublimated anal masturbation, >> okay? >> Um because he'd analyzed like one client or whatever and this is what had emerged from it. So he decided he was going to write like a paper theorizing this or whatever because you have to put he said and I'm not kidding. I'm repeated his words not mine. He said you have to repeatedly put your fingers in and out of dirty holes like when you're going around the golf course taking the like the golf ball out of the out of the hole after you've taken a shot. >> Okay. >> And I read that and I thought I think I'm done with this. Like I can't I can't really take this seriously anymore. So I mean that's the more extreme end of psychoanalytic interpretation, right? Some of it is a lot more down to earth like definitely in recent since the probably since the 1950s and60s onwards and particularly more recently there are forms of psychonamic therapy that are much more down to earth but even when I was training in it we read lon we read klene we still were reading Freud and stuff and so a lot of the literature we're reading was kind of bonkers really and based on like zero evidence as well Freud do you know how much research Freud did to develop his theories. >> Zero, >> zero, nothing. Like he literally wrote the interpretation of dreams after his father died and he sat and analyzed his own dreams and that was how he basically came up with most of the stuff. So it wasn't based on any client work at all really like it wasn't based on any clinical research whatsoever. or Freud was pretty much dead against that and yet he produced volumes of stuff and this tradition that went on for ages. So there were some personal reasons why I kind of got a bit disillusioned with it and I thought this is isn't really sitting comfortably with me. Um I'll tell you another little anecdote that I can share with you as well. Like so when I did my master's degree uh some of the the lecturers were really into Jacqu Lon who a philosophical French post structuralist uh psychoanalytic theorist was big in the 60s early '7s and stuff right and uh we read this book by a guy called Dylan Evans uh who it was a dictionary of lonian thought and this was the main reference book and I and some of the other people, particularly people that were working in psychiatric nursing and therapy and stuff, we'd sit there every week in a little seminar room and the guy that was teaching us would go on a bit lon or whatever and we'd sit there scratching our heads being like, "We can't really for this doesn't make any sense. It doesn't bear any resemblance to what actually happens with our clients and we can't really make head or tail about what this guy's going on about." And I remember our the the guy teaching us said to us once, he got frustrated and he said, "You guys just don't get it, do you?" Right? And we were all thinking and like maybe there isn't anything to get, right? But okay, you seem to believe that this is, you know, it's not the emperor's new clothes, you know, or anything like that. Like there's something to get here that we don't understand. So I thought, ah, give up on this. It's not really panning out for me. You know, cognitive behavioral approach appealed to me a lot more. years later, I was reading uh a newspaper and I saw a column by Dylan Evans and he was talking about I think he might have mentioned CBT and he was talking about evolutionary psychology and stuff. So I emailed the guy and I was like, "Hey, I thought you were into Lon and he said, I get this question asked away all the time." And he emailed me back a biographical essay that he'd written and in it he said he trained as a Laconian therapist and he was practicing in the NHS doing Laconian analysis and he said that none of his clients were getting any better. his own personal therapy after so many years he'd figured out wasn't really doing him any good. He wrote this book to try and sort out in his own head what Lon was talking about. But by the end of writing it, he'd basically just convinced himself there was nothing there like and it didn't make any sense. And so he reached this kind of crisis point and he thought like me in a way he threw the towel in on the whole thing and gave it up, right? And I thought, I wish I'd known that when we were sitting reading this book and studying at a university and the lecturer was like, you guys just don't get it right because the guy that wrote the textbook had become completely disillusioned with the whole thing and thought it didn't make sense. And we're sitting there going, maybe we're just too thick to understand it, Chris. You know, >> that is usually the uh default assumption. Maybe I'm just too thick. I don't understand what this guy's going on about. >> Right. Okay. So, the fear of being too thick and the concern of autoerotic anal masturbation. >> Yeah. >> From golf. Those were the the two >> nails in the coffin. >> And also, I got I started to learn about CBT and it it resonated more with me. I'll tell you another like so when I was a kid, I was very angry, right? So I'm a little bit in some ways like a recovering alcoholic in that regard. So I I was saying the other day I I thought about it and I realized some of the people people ask me occasionally on podcasts they'll say who's your role model you know uh from the perspective of stoic philosophy the people that you particularly admire and they want me to say Nelson Mandela or something like that right and I think well I've never met any of those guys right so I don't really know but the people that impressed me most were guys that you won't have heard of and if I think about it like some of them were people that were recovering drug addicts or alcoholics that I've met or in some cases people that were really angry and had maybe got into trouble with the law but then had turned their life around. >> And I started to think it may be like that some of the wisest people that I've met and the ones that I think exemplify the best character traits are actually people that were really angry previously but overcame their anger. And I thought well maybe also because that's the kind of journey that I went on. I started off being really angry >> and then like an alcoholic, you know, I reached a point where I thought this is I need to do something about this. It's too much. It's kind of getting out of control and it's going on too long. And so then I thought I have to dig really deep to get myself out of this hole. And in doing that, you know, I guess I changed my whole philosophy of life in some ways. Well, I think uh >> and I that was what got me into the Stoics and what got me into uh into practicing CDT basically. >> Ultimately, the sort of philosophy that's right for you and the worldview that's right for you ends up finding you. I think given a given a long enough time horizon and if you're sufficiently flexible to not hold on to [ __ ] that you're not supposed to still hold on to. So yeah, if you're doing something that at the time was the incumbent sort of the the cool kid on the block, but it didn't speak to you, you find the one that you have the most belief in. And if you're going to try and, you know, transform the world and write nine books and and speak to tens of thousands of people about coaching and courses and all that stuff, you're going to believe in the one that transformed your life way more than the one that you're super skeptical about. Look, dude, Donald, I you're so fantastic. Every time we get to speak, I love it. Um, how long is it going to be before we have a book on anger? Tell me. Come on. >> It be ages. Like, it'll probably be like another year or a year and a half or something like I'm going to take my time over it because I'm going to try and do a good job of it. But I want to talk about Stoics and how they kind of set the stage for it, how much we can learn from them, but also what CB There's a lot of really good CBT like I saying with solid research, but we also know lots from other branches of psychology about anger. Did you know social psych like do you know Americans I think there might be a thing called American anger? >> Uhhuh. >> Like I think different countries different cultures experience anger differently. You know do you know Americans report according to Gallup polls getting angry about 25% more often than Canadians and Brits. >> Okay that wouldn't surprise me. And Americans get angry three times more often than the Japanese. Japanese don't get angry that often. They claim. >> Okay. >> Some sort of shame or a culturally mediated anger. >> Anger's been growing. Like for sure there's many different measures that show it's becoming a bigger and a bigger problem. So I think one of the reasons it was because it appealed to me. It was the problem that I did. I I specialize in anxiety like I said earlier and I thought I like to do something a bit different. I thought I thought I've always wanted to go back and look at anger because that was the problem that I dealt with when I was younger. It's something that really resonates with the Stoics. But also, I look out my window and I can see, you know, the world does seem like an angrier place in many ways since I was a kid. >> I think social media fuels it a little bit. There's a disinhib disinhibition that happens from the anonymity of being online that allows people to become more verbally aggressive towards each other and it causes more and more political division >> like and it causes a lot of social problems I think you know do you remember people used to say a lot of people in America would be going around saying we think we're on the verge of a civil war or something like that >> you know and they meant it really seriously but for sure you just need to go on Twitter and see how angry angry people seem to be about politics. Do you remember when people used to be able to have a conversation with somebody that they disagreed with? >> No, that's ancient history. That doesn't exist. I think that's a myth that >> back in in medieval times. >> That's a myth. Yeah, correct. That's correct. That was eye of Eye of Newton. A conversation with someone that you disagree with without shouting. Donald Robertson, ladies and gentlemen. Donald, you're so great. Uh where should people go? Watch, read, listen your things. Where where do you want to send them? >> On Substack. Like I do everything on Substack now. They can just find me on there. I've got lots of articles and things. >> Beautiful, mate. Until next time. I appreciate you. >> Awesome. Cheers, Chris. Congratulations. You made it to the end of an episode. Your brain has not been completely [music] destroyed by the internet just yet. Here's another one that you should watch. Come on.