Doctor Gabor Mate: The Shocking Link Between Kindness & Illness!

70% of the adult population is at least on one medication. Quarter of women are on antidepressants. The rate of childhood is going up. Worldwide, there's this epidemic of distress. What can we do about that? So, the first step would be to Dr. Gabor Maté Legendary thinker Celebrated speaker and best-selling author Highly sought after for his expertise on addiction, trauma, childhood development, and stress. People pleasers, these are the people that tend to develop diseases. When people don't know how to say no, the body will say no for them. That niceness is a repression of healthy anger, and that repression of healthy anger has huge implications to your health. And when you repress your immune system, you're more likely to have that immune system turn against you. People who emotionally repress are more likely to get cancer. And emotional repression is one of the impacts of childhood trauma. We interrupt this film to tell you we are getting reports that The people's princess is dead. Harry was a traumatized child. How he's told about his mother's death is that it was an accident, "Your mother didn't make it." His father touches Harry on the knee and says, "But it'll be okay." and leaves the room. This 12-year-old, nobody held him. And children can be traumatized not just by terrible things happening to them, but just by not having their needs met, by not being seen, not being heard, not being held. Those are wounding for a child. But my interview with Prince Harry, I had a gut feeling all along that I shouldn't agree to do the interview. It really got to me. I lost myself. What happened? Gabor There's a question we often ask each other in flippant conversations, which we usually kind of brush away because it's the convenient thing to do. Yeah. That question is the question I wanted to start by asking you, which is how are you? Yeah. Um So, that question is for me brings up, you know, two dimensions. One is how am I at this present moment, which is, you know, how am I at this moment, you know, which is all there is. I'm well. I'm I I feel rather peaceful inside. Um I'm very happy to be here with you. If you'd asked me 2 days ago, I wouldn't have said that. I would have said I was feeling somewhat anxious and uh and kind of troubled, you know? So, um as a in the moment answer, I'm well, and I also know how to keep well as long as I stick with what I know. And when I forget what I know, then I can be very not well. And so, the last year since we've met has been in many ways a tough year for me. Um also one of deep learning. So, if the question is how have I been, I'd say I've been up and down, and I've had real challenges that I've had to learn from. How am I right now? I'm really well, thank you. 2 days ago, if I'd asked you that question, your answer would have been anxious and troubled. Yeah. Why? I gave a talk on Monday night to 2,100 people. And uh I just didn't think I did my best here in London. And I thought, "Oh boy, I could have done better. I let people down." Um I I allowed myself judgments and self-doubts to really um dominate my my thinking. And um you know, as much as I think I'm uh immune to that kind of self-doubt, evidently I'm not. Um so, that's what happened. When you say um you let it cloud your thinking, what are the What were the symptoms of that? So, you you gave a talk 2 days ago to 2,100 people. Yeah. And you didn't feel you did your best. You went home that night. What was going on in your head? What are the symptoms of that feeling? Um constant um Mm. Cyclical self-criticism of I could have been more present, I could have been more grounded, more attuned with the audience, perhaps. But, you know, just all these self-criticisms, which then are accompanied by certain feelings in the body, like kind of a a roiling in my belly and so on. And uh that's what I went through. And what was the remedy for that? Cuz we can all relate. Yeah. Earlier this year, um also feeling in a state of discombobulation, uh just a few months ago, I did something radical. I did a 2-week total sabbatical from the internet. No cell phone, no emails, no no checking on Amazon how my book books are doing, you know, all this self-referential uh uh ego enhancement stuff. And it just really made a difference. Uh by the end of 2 weeks, I was a different person. And so, I'm keeping it up. And one of the things you learn is you start noticing these body states that you're in and the mental mm hoops that you jump through, but you don't identify with them. So, what's the worst case scenario? I didn't do the best possible job. Okay, what's the headline in the newspaper? Human being fails to do his best on a particular occasion. What's the big deal? You know? So, it's a matter of observing this all all this stuff and not identifying with it. Not letting it take you over as it tends to. I was reading something that said when we vocalize or share our stress, it moves it from the emotional center of our brain to the much more rational center of our brain, Yeah. where we can kind of step outside of the video game and hold the controller, per se. Exactly. Yeah, it's the um um midfrontal cortex of our brain um that has insight and um um social connection and uh uh awareness, you know, which so often goes offline as soon as some emotion takes over, some anxiety or anger or resentment takes over. Uh the midfrontal cortex tends to go offline. And uh the more trauma you experience as a child, the more likely that is to happen, so that your insightful capacities, the executive functions get taken over by some deeper emotional dynamics. And so, um one of the benefits to me of meditation is is it restores that uh executive function, so that I'm not taken over or too long taken over by emotional dynamics that just sweep me away. For 2 weeks this year, you said you went offline. Yeah. Why? Sometimes people say to me uh I I wrote this book that I know that you have on your desk, When the Body Says No. And and my contention is when people don't know how to say no, the body will say it in the form of illness. And uh I I can tell you hundreds of times people have said to me, "Your book has saved my life." And my response has always been, "Maybe I should read it myself." Because the fact is I'm quite capable of giving advice and dispensing wisdom that I don't follow myself. And that was the case. So, I became quite stressed, and my relationship with my wife, Rae, became very fraught. And she said, "Enough. Enough of this gap between who you are there in public and how you are in private." So, that was the big incentive for me, cuz uh uh we're coming up to our 54th anniversary, and on the whole, I'd rather stay married than not. Everything else being considered. But also for myself, I don't really like I don't want to be that guy anymore who who can speak the truth that a lot of people consider to be a truth so articulately, but not follow it myself. So, I just don't want to be that person. And that takes practice. And that's why I get That's why I take the to take a break from the internet. And what was interesting is I had my cell phone on airplane mode, so nobody could get through me. Couple days Couple times a day, I'd still pick up the cell phone. And I say, "What are you doing?" There's nothing on it, cuz you it's on the internet. But the compulsion to try and get some from the outside to fill some some gap within. I just kept noticing it. By the end of 2 weeks, it wasn't so strong anymore. Um so, I did it because I needed to for the sake of my own mental health. An up and down year for you, you said. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Is that Is that the the down you were talking about? Well, I remember a conversation my conversation with you. And I and I think I remember you telling me that you had this goal of becoming a millionaire. When I was younger, yeah. When I was younger. And then it's when you achieve that goal that you realize that that ain't all there is. That you're still left very much with your internal demons. And that's a very common lesson. I mean, there's two ways to to wake up. One is failure, where you keep asking yourself, you know, but but but but success is even more because you think that once you get something, then you'll be happy, and you know? So, I thought, "Okay, well, jeez, I could, you know?" So, this book, The Myth of Normal, you know, best-seller internationally and published in 35 languages, I should be happy. No. The more I got involved with it, the more I toured with it, the more engaged with the outside I became, the more miserable miserable I became inside. So, the very success of the book and it allowed to sweep sweep It swept me away, and I lost myself, you know? So, that was one thing. And I did this very long, exhausting tour. I wasn't taking care of myself. And then there was the uh my interview with Prince Harry and all the um uh fru-fra around it before it and after it. And I allowed that allowed that to take me over as well. Really? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, retrospect, I can see what happened, but at the time I was too caught up in it to notice. You know? So, what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter what I know, if I don't pay attention, rigorous attention, to what's going on inside, and if I keep looking to the outside to give me meaning and give me um validation, then I can lose myself. And that's what happened. Your interview with Prince Harry, how did that cause you to lose yourself? Well, in two ways. One is um I had a gut feeling all along that I shouldn't agree to doing it the way they set it up. Because of the way it was set up is in order to watch it, people have to buy a copy of Harry's book. And I thought this is not fair. 4 million people have already bought the book. Why can't they watch this interview? Do they have to buy another copy? In other words, I believed that this should be a free public service on the part of two people who can have a very interesting conversation. But out of sheer opportunism, I agreed to it. So, I didn't follow my gut feeling. So, I lost myself even in agreeing to the format. And afterwards, Harry and I both wanted it released to the public for free, but the lawyers said you can't do that because this was advertised as a one-time-only event, and you could they could be a class action suit. So, um the result was that I agreed to something that I didn't really like. Not that I didn't like the idea of talking with him. I didn't like the idea of putting this behind a paywall. So, I lost myself just in agreeing to it. Number one. Number two, then there was the incredible social media and British media reaction to it that was for the most part so negative and so demeaning and so dismissive and so distorted that I barely even know how to talk about it. I thought by this age I would know better, but you know what? It really got to me. It really got to me. I mean, uh I can give you examples, but um eventually what happened was that I was really in a negative state of mind, and have you read the book The um The Fox, the Mole, the Horse, and the Boy, and the and the Horse? I bought it last week. It's upstairs in my bag. Wonderful. So, great It's a great little book great big book, although very few words in it, mostly just these wonderful drawings. Charlie Mackesy, um he's really channeling wisdom in that book, and the horse is the most grounded of the four characters of the four friends, and he's asked, "What's the most courageous thing you've ever said?" And the horse says, "Help." So, it's so difficult to ask for help, but I did. You know, in the middle of all this fru-fra and my upset, and I called a friend of mine, a psychiatrist, um and I said, "I'm just in a bad state." And he said, "What's going on for you?" And I said, "Well, there's all this bad press and all the social media distortion of who I am and my motives." He said, "What is it about that you bothers you so much?" And I said, "Not being seen." Not being seen is one of the needs of the child. But he said to me, "Okay, look, Gabor, when you were an infant, you not being seen for who you are as a human being almost cost you your life." Which it did. As soon as he said that, I said, "Yeah." This isn't about the present. This is an old, unresolved, not yet fully resolved wound. Age 79, I'm still upset at not being seen. I don't care if people agree with me um or they viewed my ideas, but I want them to see me and what I'm actually saying, not some distorted version created by their own minds. And And when he said that, "That not being seen really threatened your life." I said, "Yeah. That's what's going on." And then I could relax. I said, "This is So what what somebody else says? I don't live in the British press. I don't live in somebody else's mind. Here I am, you know? Let them think and say what they say. But it took somebody to wake me up to that. So, that's what happened. You said you could share examples of how it got to you. Of Yeah. Well, oh boy, um they called me a stern, overbearing merchant of pain. You know? Uh At some point in the interview, you know, when Harry was um And here's the thing was See, Harry really was a traumatized child. Um And you can when you read his book, you you can see why, you know, he And people couldn't understand how this is possible. How could somebody so privileged, at the very apex of society, in gilded palaces, be traumatized? Total misunderstanding of trauma. Um it's true. Uh people have it much tougher in many ways, but as an infant, as a sensitive infant, to be born into a a loveless marriage where the father's having an affair even before he's born, where the mother's a troubled, very sensitive, very creative, warm-hearted, but mm very unbalanced young woman. So, Harry describes in his book Spare, that he's 12 years old when his mother's killed. How he's told about his mother's death is that his father, then Prince Charles, comes into his room early in the morning and says, "Something terrible happened. There was an accident. Your mother didn't make it." Then there's a few moments of awkward silence, and finally Charles touches Harry on the knee and says, "But it'll be okay." And leaves the room. And this is how this 12-year-old was told. Nobody held him. Um Charles himself was only doing what happened to him when when Queen Elizabeth went on a international four- or five-month royal tour, leaving the five-year-old kid behind. When she returned to England, she greeted him by shaking his hand. And now what I said to Harry was that even animals hold and touch their kids. Their infants, mammals, that's what they do. Because mother rats, when the baby's born, they lick their babies. And the way the mother rat uh rat licks the baby, this has been shown in laboratory, influences the brain development of the child. And those babies that get the right kind of licking, it's called grooming, they have better brains as adults. Premature infants used to be put in incubators, and nobody used to touch them. Then it was found out that if I just by stroking their backs 10 minutes a day, that promotes healthy brain development. And the great British-American uh anthropologist Ashley Montagu wrote a book called Skin: The Human Significance of Touch. So, I was saying that touch is important. You not being held and not being touched was a deprivation. And I said, "Mammals, monkeys, you know what happens when a baby elephant is born? This is fascinating. The mother ele- I read this in the book called The Evolved Nest, for which I wrote the preface, by a wonderful psychologist called Darcia Narvaez. When a when an infant element elephant is born, and the mother goes into labor, all the other mother elephants stand around in a circle. When the infant plops on the ground, they all stroke them with their trunks. So, touch and being held is so important for mammals. And I was saying, "Animals do journalist, who I don't know what she was listening to, said, "I said the royal family treats their kids like animals." I said, "No. I wish they had." So, I mean, the distortion is just laughable if it wasn't if I hadn't taken it so personally, for the reasons I already explained. For you to take it so personally, which led you to call a psychiatrist, Yeah. a man like you with the knowledge you have that writes books about the mind and stress and the body and all these things, you must have been in a pretty dark place. I was in a dark place, and I wasn't But look, I'm a human being like the rest, and what Charlie Mackesy says in in that book is that the most courageous thing you can do is ask for help. Mm. It's true. You know, there's that I don't know if you remember the Beatles song Help, I need somebody, and and John Lennon sings, "When I was younger, so much younger than today, I didn't need anybody's help in any way." But now, those days are gone. I'm much less self-assured. He's actually saying that when he was younger, he believed he didn't need help. But the reason he believed he didn't need help, that he has to make it on his own, cuz he was so traumatized as a child. His uh father left him when he was born. Um his mother left. He was brought up by an aunt, and Lennon grows up feeling abandoned, that I can do this on my own. I don't need anybody. You know? And uh later on, he realizes, "I need help." But as actually, we're all born needing help. We're all born uh needing to be understood, to be attuned to be seen, to have our emotions received and validated. That's one of the essential needs of children. As I make the point in The Myth of Normal, and children can be traumatized not just by terrible things happening to them, but just by not having their needs met. By not being seen, not being heard, not being held, those are wounding for a child. Which is what the meaning of the word trauma means. So, you don't need terrible things to happen. It's so difficult for people to understand that. You know, they they they think for trauma, you need horrific events. Well, horrific events can be very traumatic. But you can wound people, sensitive people. The sensitive child or any child can be hurt just because the parents are too stressed and unavailable emotionally to really see them for who they are. I've struggled with that in my life, especially being um a CEO, I think. I've struggled to ask for help when I need it. Because you kind of see yourself as the helper. And also, I've struggled with the idea, maybe I don't know where I got this story from, that people like me, maybe because I'm a man, maybe because I'm um the head of businesses, we have to figure it out on our own. And the cost of repress repressing how I feel has become more and more evident over time. Yeah, how so? Just like I think I When I was younger, I never experienced anxiety before. And then as I had more difficult moments in business where I tried to solve the problem in my mind for the first time that like 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 that I experienced like fully fledged what I'd call anxiety where I just couldn't get a thought out of my head and I felt it in my body. My breath was short, this constant state of like angst. Yeah. Um and and yeah, I just thought I could deal with it myself. I thought I could think my way through it. Yeah. Um was that the hardest the the hardest moment in terms of your own psychology in your adult life in recent times? Let me answer that question in a moment, but let me ask you a question that occurs to me, if I may. Yeah, please. Um it's like with beautiful women, they sometimes have a really hard time cuz they can never know that somebody want me for who I really am, or they're just attracted to my physical features. So, for somebody who at a young age becomes quite wealthy and successful, um how do you know when somebody's approaching you? Are they approaching you cuz they want something from you, or because they really care about you? I mean, that must be a problem for you, I imagine. 100%. 100%. You never really know or understand what your relationships are. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Huh. So, it it must be confusing sometimes. It is. And you I typically fall back onto the relationships I had before. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I can trust those ones. Yeah. So, I have the same my best friends, people I spend my time with on my birthday, there's five, you know, five people there, are the five people that were there 10 years ago. Yeah. Unless, I think, we get reconnected to our gut feelings, then our gut feelings will tell us what is real and what isn't. But the problem for many of us is that we get disconnected from our gut feelings very early in life, like in a in this room of 2,100 at the Troxy on Monday night, um I think I asked this question, I always do it. Uh have you had the experience of having a strong gut feeling about something and not paying attention to it, ignoring it, and being sorry afterwards? Mhm. Almost everybody puts their hand up. That's a child sign of childhood wounding. Because we're born connected to our gut feelings. No baby is disconnected from their gut feelings. Something happens to make us disconnect. What is a gut feeling? In it from a physiological perspective, because gut feeling is used as a word to describe, you know, an intuition or, you know, Well, the real gut feeling is really happening in the gut. In the Western way of looking at it, we tend to look upon the intellect and and and the intellectual brain as the only brain that we have, but actually our brain is a far more complicated um structure. And our heart has a nervous system, which is connected to the brain up here. And there's a kind of knowing in the heart. Sometimes people say, "I knew it in my heart." And they did. If they're connected. Gut feelings are what all animals possess. It warns them of danger or when it's safe and when it isn't safe. Not in the brain. Um the gut is connected to the brain. The the gut sends more connections to the brain than the brain sends to the gut. And the gut has more of the neurotransmitter serotonin in it than the brain does. So that the gut feelings are here to tell us about what is safe and what isn't. And when the brain in the gut and the brain in the heart and the brain in up here in this in the head are connected, then we're grounded and present and very alert and very aware of what's going on. But when childhood trauma interferes with those connections, which it does, then we start to just work from up here, and we can think we can figure things just from up here. But actually, when you think about human beings, where did we evolve? We evolved for millions of years out in nature. How long does any creature in nature survive if they don't pay attention to their gut feelings? So, to go back to your question about me, I used to believe I really used to believe into my 40s that I everybody else could be stressed, but I couldn't be. And it's like you and your anxiety. Um I think the reason you I didn't feel the stress cuz I had coping mechanisms. Like working hard and um getting people's attention or using my smarts. And and uh having status and all this kind of stuff, you know? And then that broke down. I realized I I could be stressed like everybody else, but literally, I had to I I had this belief, and it's almost unbelievable to me now, that I used to believe that I couldn't everybody else could be stressed, but I couldn't be. That's what I thought. Yeah. Your wife, when you went through that Yeah. dark moment, if I was her, what would I have observed? Well, first of all, and I talk about this in The Myth of Normal, and really my wife came on stage at the Troxy on Monday night and talked about this. I asked her to. Women have 80% of autoimmune disease in this society. So that um diseases where the immune system attacks the body happens to women much more than to men. Things like rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, um inflammatory diseases of the gut, um and and so on. Why? So, um those diseases tend to happen to people not just according to my own observation, although it's very much my own observation when I was working in family practice and palliative care before I did addiction medicine, I noticed that who got sick and who didn't wasn't accidental. Um as the subject of my book When the Body Says No, and then again in The Myth of Normal, people tended to be compulsively concerned with the emotional needs of others rather than their own, identified with duty, role, and responsibility, so they're they're working the world rather than their own um true selves. They tended to suppress healthy anger. So, they tended to be very very nice and peacemakers. And they tended to believe that they're responsible for other people feel, and that they must never they must disappoint anybody, two fatal beliefs. So, these are the people that according to my observation, but according to a whole lot of research as well that I didn't even know about, but I've since found them, elegant research, these are the people that tend to develop autoimmune disease. Now, in this society, which gender is more acculturated, programmed to suppress their healthy anger, to be the peacemakers, to be the caregivers? Women. This is a function of a reality that a lot of people deny, but it's a patriarchal society, but which we can talk about, but it's not a conspiracy, it's just how it works. So, me in my marriage, I expect my wife to absorb my stresses. And if I'm unhappy, guess who I blame? And who do I take it out on? So, she would experience somebody who's um can be hostile for no reason and blaming and she used to walk on eggshells. Now, um thank God, she's not the type to do that for too long, and at some point she'll call my bluff. And then I either wake up or she says, "Thank you very much, but enough of this." You know? And so, she would experience somebody who's irritable and unreasonably blaming and not taking care of their own needs, and then expecting her to take care of them for me. And um we both had to grow up. Now, she was programmed that way as a child. Her parents had a lot of problems, and she became the peacemaker and a caregiver emotionally. And then she carries that role into her marriage with me. And here's where the bad news is of her people, we always marry somebody at the same level of emotional development or trauma resolution as we are. So, when we met, we were two traumatized people not even realizing it. And then we played out our traumas, and I played it out in the typical male way, which is to be aggressive and demanding and resentful if she wasn't around to mother me. And um that's what she would have seen. And this dynamic can still arise except when it does, she puts a stop to it right away. And I have the grace and the wisdom I now to understand, yeah, I'm doing it again. In fact, I haven't done it since then. Because I just don't want to be that guy. You know, but that's what she would have seen. And what was going on inside your head? Were you anxious? Were you depressed? I was anxious and um then I want her her soothing. I want her I how should I say this? Um There's an interesting sexual dynamic between men and women. The men very often expect the unconsciously expect their women to mother them. To give them the mothering that they didn't fully receive as kids. And the women take on that role because they're acculturated in this society to do that. But then what happens sexually? No healthy guy wants to sleep with his mother. And no healthy woman wants to sleep with her son. So, that the the order and the you know, the the the passion kind of drains out because of this unconscious dynamic of women mothering men and and men men demanding that they do. So, then I become frustrated. And then who do I blame for that? I blame her rather than looking at how did I contribute to how did I have create this situation? So, um all that stuff played out in our marriage. And we've had to learn a lot from what didn't work. In my relationship when I was most anxious, it's also when my relationship nearly ended. Mhm. Um with my partner because like you said, I inadvertently took it out on her Yeah. because I felt that she should understand how I'm feeling and basically adapt to me. Exactly. And she didn't, and so there was conflict because I felt like she was misunderstanding me. Yeah. And wasn't like acting in the right way to meet the needs that I had. Like she couldn't under You know, and and so that I think I wore her down, and then there was kind of like as you say that ultimatum Yeah. moment where she's basically saying, "Listen, should I just go?" Yeah. And what you probably didn't do, and what I didn't do for a long time, is just to go to her and say, "You know what? I'm feeling anxious." Yeah, that was the That's what happened after. You know, you know, and I'm feeling unsettled. And I realize that I have resentful feelings towards you, you know? Instead of owning it, we acted out. Yeah. And then we Why don't they understand us? Yeah. And actually So, what we're actually demanding is that we can be children emotionally, and they be the mothers who without any effort on our part will understand and see us. You know, and this is a strong dynamic um in men-female relationships. And what tends to happen is is that men then Women at some point get to the if they're healthy enough. Now, if they're not If they're not strong enough to assert themselves, you know what happens? They get sick. Mhm. And uh I know this is a mouthful, but a lot of women's cancers and autoimmune diseases are precisely because of this self-repression. And I could talk about that at great length, the physiology of it. But either that the body will somehow say no for them. That's why women are on much more likely to be on antidepressants cuz they're taking the medication for both of them. You know, and so either the woman gets ill somehow or she asserts herself and says, "I'm not doing this anymore." At which point the guy will go seeking a younger mother who's not yet mature enough to assert herself. And this happens all the time in relationships. The cost of self-repression, the cost of sort of emotional repression. I think everybody is guilty at some point in their life of repressing their emotions. I think men Yeah. do it a lot as well. I mean, if you look at the suicidality Yeah. in the UK among men, men tend to act it out on themselves like that, yeah. What is the cost of self-repression that you talked about? The physiological mechanism of what's going on when we repress our emotions and how we feel? It's It's been well studied not just by me, but others and documented that repression of healthy anger um disturbs the immune system. Now, why should that be the case? Now, healthy anger is simply when somebody is intruding on your space and they won't desist. You say, "You're in my space. Get out." That's healthy anger. It's in the moment. When it's done its job, it's finished with. It's different from chronic rage, which is a whole other thing. Now, in other words, anger is a boundary defense. That's all it is. Animals do it. Ah, get out of my space. You know, now the emotional system in general has the job uh the human emotional system in general has the role of allowing in what is nurturing and loving and healthy and welcome and to keep out what isn't. That's the job of the emotional system. Let me ask you a trick question. What's the job of the immune system? Okay, I'll answer. It's to keep out what is unhealthy and unwelcome and toxic and to let in what is nurturing and healthy. So, the immune system is like is can be called a floating brain. It has a memory. It has a reactive capacity. And um it res- allows in nutrients and vitamins and healthy bacteria and keeps out and destroys what isn't, toxins and unhealthy invading organisms and so on. In other words, the immune system and the emotional system have exactly the same role. That's the first point. The second point is they're not separate systems. Physiologically speaking, the emotional system, the nervous system, hormonal apparatus, and the immune system are all one system. And there's a whole new science when I say new, 60, 70, 80 years old called psychoneuroimmunology that studies the unity. So, it's not even that all these things are connected, they're one. So, therefore, when you're suppressing one aspect of it, you're also suppressing the other. So, people that repress healthy anger, they have diminished immune activity. And this has been demonstrated. So, so the repression of emotions has a physiological function. And when you repress your immune system, you're more likely to have that immune system turn against you or to fail you when it comes to malignancy. The immune system like you and I have cancer cells in our bodies probably every day cuz na- nature makes mistakes. That's not a problem. The immune system recognizes them as cancer cells don't have on their surfaces markers that our normal cells do. So, the immune system says, "This is a foreigner. It's an enemy. I'm going to destroy it." But when you repress your emotions, you can also undermine your immune system, and then your immune system will not recognize the malignancy and not destroy it. It allows it to to proliferate. There was a British surgeon in the 1960s who operated on Am I talking too much? No, you know, there's no such thing on this podcast. Okay. Because I just get so passionate about this stuff. Uh and the reason I get so passionate about it is cuz it's so important in healing. And we as physicians could do so much more for people if we understood these scientific facts, but we don't as a profession. Anyway, there was a day There was a British um thoracic surgeon called David Kissen in the 1960s who noticed what I noticed in my practice, that um people emotionally repressed are more likely to get lung cancer. Now, it's true that most people who get lung cancers are smokers. But out of 100 smokers, only about 10 or 15 get lung cancer. Which doesn't mean that lung smoking isn't the major contributor to lung cancer. It is. But he found that it was those of his patients that were emotionally repressed that were likely to get the lung cancer as a result of the smoking. And the more repressed they were, the less smoking they had to do in order to get lung cancer. This is This guy noticed this in the 1960s. So, emotional repression has huge implications physiologically. And emotional repression is one of the uh impacts of childhood trauma. Why? The child is born with some fundamental needs. One of them, as I've articulated earlier, is for attachment, for closeness, proximity, unconditional loving acceptance by um caring adults. Not just the human child, all mammalian children have that need. Without that, they don't survive. So, that's called attachment. The seeking of closeness and proximity for the purpose of being taken care of or to take care of the other. And our brains are wired for attachment. We have circuits in our brain dedicated to the attachment relationships. And that's so important all through our lives, but especially when we're infants and young children. Now, but we have another need. We've already talked about it. I just haven't named it. The other need is for authenticity. We used to be ourselves, connected to our bodies and our gut feelings. Because again, without access to our gut feelings, we don't survive. Uh out there in nature, where we evolved and where we lived until 15,000 years ago. You know, and so that authenticity is very important, to be connected to yourself, so that you know when you're safe and when you're not. Uh you know what you want and what you don't want. You know how to say no when you don't want something. You know how to say yes when you do. That's authenticity. Auto the self, being ourselves. And to go back to Harry, his challenge all his life was that he wasn't allowed to be authentic. He had to play a certain role and fit into a certain set of expectations of how to be and who to be. And he could never figure out who am I really? You know, in that context. But that's so general. So many of us face that challenge of who are we really? Who are we authentically? As opposed to what's expected of us. Now, so we have these two needs. Attachment on the one hand authenticity in the other. Ideally, the two are not in conflict. Ideally, you can be in a relationship or I can be in a relationship where we can be ourselves and be accepted and connected with. And that's ideal all our lives. But what happens to a young child where if they're authentic, they're not accepted? So for example, um certain psychologists recommend that angry children should be uh punished for their anger. Rather than their anger being understood as to what it's all about and the child being taught different ways to express it. They just to be punished for it. And by different ways. By the way, if you're parent of a 2-year-old and if you don't frustrate your child, you're probably not doing a good job cuz your 2-year-old may want a cookie before dinner. And you say, "No, cookie before dinner." Uh I want a cookie, you know. And in a minute they're throwing a tantrum. Cuz what do even adults do when they're frustrated? They throw tantrums. Children, that's just what they do. They have no self-regulation yet. So the 2-year-old gets upset. Now you punish them. You give them a message, "You're not acceptable to me when you're angry. When you're angry. You have to be a certain way for me to accept you. Or you mustn't be sad. Cheer up. What's you know, what's wrong with you? You know? So when children are given this message of conditionality, that you're acceptable to me only if you behave in ways that I approve of, otherwise the attachment relationship is threatened, then a child is faced with this choice, which is not a choice at all. Do I stay attached to my parents? If my parent if my father's an alcoholic, and uh the only way I can find acceptance is by repressing my emotions and not show my sadness and my fear, then do I show my sadness and my fear or my anger? Or do I threaten the relationship? Well, there's no choice at all. The child will choose the attachment. And therefore they give up connection to themselves. Which is the essence of trauma. That disconnection from ourselves, not in my own words, in the words of other trauma theorists, um who I agree with, the worst aspect of trauma is the disconnection from ourselves. And we do that for the sake of making maintaining attachments. Which means for the rest of our lives, we'll be afraid to be ourselves. Is this what they call people pleasers? People uh exactly. So um Sheryl Crow, the American singer and musician, um developed breast cancer. And she said that since my breast cancer I've been a different person. Until then, I was always trying to please others. And now, and there was used to be voices in my head that were always telling me that I was wrong. I don't listen to them anymore. You know, so that uh people pleasers are the ones who gave up, not by conscious choice, but as a matter of survival, their authenticity in order to stay liked and accepted and attached with. But then they carried that on in the rest of their lives. And they're at risk. I always worry for the very nice people. I think this is fascinating. I looked at the back end of our YouTube channel and it says that since this channel started, 69.9% of you that watch it frequently haven't yet hit the subscribe button. So, I have a favor to ask you. If you've ever watched this channel and enjoyed the content, if you're enjoying this episode right now, please can I ask a small favor? Please hit the subscribe button. Helps this channel more than I can explain. And I promise, if you do that, to return the favor, we will make this show better and better and better and better and better. That's a promise I'm willing to make you if you hit the subscribe button. Do we have a deal? You always worry for the very nice people. Yeah. You talk a a lot about that in When the Body Says No. Yeah. Why is being nice a potential risk to one's health? Well, there's two there's two places to be very nice from. One is just genuine human compassion and concern for others, but you're still grounded in yourself. That's great. But a lot of people are very nice because they afraid not to be. Because they weren't liked who they were, they weren't loved for who they were. Being nice was their way of gaining the the love and the attention they needed. Let me tell you a story. In uh uh in 1870, there was a Frenchman neurologist called Jean-Martin Charcot, who was the first one to describe multiple sclerosis, which is an inflammation of the nervous system. Very debilitating. And Charcot said in 1870, without any scientific research, but just from his own observation, that this was a stress-driven disease. Okay? Now, since then, there's been a lot of research to show how stress and trauma potentiate multiple sclerosis. And that's not even controversial. Not that any neurologists knows that, they don't get taught this stuff in medical school, but the research is there. And I presented it in in my books. And in any case, when I was writing When the Body Says No, a group of a self-help group of multiple sclerosis patients phoned me and said, "Would you come and talk to us? Cuz we understand you're working on stress and and illness." And I said, "Yeah, sure, I'll come and talk to you." And there's about 25 people in the group. This is in Vancouver, Canada. And I gave them very tentatively apologetically apologetically, I said, "Look, I don't know this for sure, but the sense I get from my work in family practice and palliative care is that the people that develop your condition and other conditions tend to be people to be pleasers. That they have a they tend to have difficulty saying no. They tend to be very nice people." And I I said, "You know, I'm sorry if I've offended you. I don't mean to. I'm just giving you something very tentative. I haven't done the research yet. I'm just giving you my observations." They said, "You just described us." And they all said that. And there's a woman who says in the group who says, "I don't even know how to say no." I said, "Terrific. Give me $100 right now." She says, "Well, I don't I don't I don't have $100 with me right now." I said, "It's not a problem." I said, "Outside the outside this building there's an ATM machine. We can go and after the meeting we can go out, you can get $100 and give it to me." She says, "Uh I'm not comfortable doing that." I said, "Listen, I'm just trying to get you to say no to a ridiculous demand by a perfect stranger to whom you you owe nothing whatsoever." She said, "I can't say the word." Because in childhood, and by the way, when you have kids, you're going to find out what the word no means because at age 1 and 1/2, all kids start saying no. They say that long before they say yes. Why? Because that no is their boundary defense of I have to figure out who I am. I'm not going to accede to your demands. I need to figure out what I want. Put your shoes on. No. And the parents think this is something wrong. There's nothing wrong. It's nature individuating the child. When families punish that, the child will repress the no and the body will say in the form of multiple sclerosis, for example. Niceness, ALS, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis or known in Britain as motor neuron disease. Um Stephen Hawking was diagnosed with it at age 21. He was told he'd be dead within 10 2 years. He lived another 55 years. Doctors don't know everything. You know, um but there's been studies on ALS patients. They're extraordinarily nice. So, um there was a from a Cleveland Clinic in Ohio, a major referral clinic, two neurologists published a paper at an international ALS or motor neuron congress, why are ALS patients so nice? And what they described was that when people came to their office for diagnosis before they met the physician, they had underwent EDX electrodiagnostic testing of the nerves. And the technicians who performed the test would write on the side of the test, "This person can't have ALS. She's not nice enough." Or "I'm afraid this person has ALS. They're too nice. And the physicians, the neurologist specialist said, despite the shortness of their contact with their patients and the obviously unscientific nature of their observations, invariably, they turned out to be right. And then I called Dr. Wilburn who did this study and I said, what did the other staff what did the other neurologists say when you presented this? They said, oh, I said, yeah, we all noticed this. We just can't explain it. Since then, there's been a study where they've asked neurologists about their patients and the answer is, all their ALS patients are extraordinarily nice. Now, what do neurologists don't do is they don't make the connection that that we that that that that that niceness is a repression of healthy anger and that repression of healthy anger plays a role in the onset of that disease. So, it's not a accidental connection. So, why do I write very nice people? Cuz they're putting themselves at risk. Again, niceness can come from genuine concern for others, but that's not accompanied by an ignoring of yourself. You also care for yourself. Then you can be as nice as you want. But you also know how to say no. And you also know how to set boundaries. You don't know how to and you know how to be angry if you need to be. But the niceness that comes from self-repression, that's the one that hurts. There's clearly going to be a lot of very nice people hearing that. That know they're nice, that know they're people pleasers, that know they've experienced in their lives the consequences of putting everyone else before themselves. Yeah. I can It's funny, as you were talking, I was thinking about the person that I know who I think is nicest. Yeah. And that individual is sick all the time. Yeah. And I just connected that dot in my head. That I remember making a joke to her about, oh, you're sick you're sick a lot, like whatever, you're sick a lot. And then also thinking, oh my god, she is probably the nicest. Nice is an interesting word because that can be misconstrued as like, hiya, or like, you know, Yeah. saying nice things to someone else, but it's really at a deeper level. From what I've observed in that person, putting everyone else before them. Okay. Or chronically serving other people's needs before their own. Well, so, my contention is, as I said earlier, when people don't know how to say no, the body will say no for them in the form of illness. And for and for a lot of people with serious illness, the illness is the wake-up call. Yeah. And they actually learn. And when they do, that can make a difference to the course of their illness. Sometimes, not always, but I've seen examples of remarkable healing when people learn to say no and stop being people pleasers. And I just only wish that physicians understood this. So, when somebody comes to them with chronic eczema and all these other chronic conditions, they would not just provide the physical treatment, but they would also talk to the person about how much stress do they taking on. It's very stressful to take on everybody else's issues and ignoring your own. It's very stressful. That stress has a physiological impact on the body. How does someone who is a people pleaser how do they turn that ship around? Because it's they'll hear that, but because their niceness or their people pleasing is so deep within them and it started so early, they're not going to they're not going to change. Most of them won't change. Well, they may change if they get sick. You know, and if they learn something from it. I've had a lot of people tell me that. Um But it is happens very early. Uh but it's everybody's second nature, not their first nature. It's a very interesting phrase, second nature. It means that there is a first nature. Now, no baby is born as a people pleaser. No baby is lies there no one-day-old baby lies there thinking, gosh, um I'm hungry and wet and and and and lonely, but gosh, mom and dad have been worked so hard, I better not bother them. You know, babies will express their needs very volubly and very articulately and very loudly. That's how we're born. We're meant to be born that way. So, that this suppression of that is our second nature. And that first nature never goes away. We can always retrieve it. But you have to become conscious of it. So, and when the body says no, I lay out certain principles of healing. Um in the myth of normal, I will actually teach this exercise. Ask yourself this question, where in your life are you not saying no? Where where no wants to be said, but you're not saying it. Like let me actually let me give an example. Let's say I come to London and and and we're friends and I call you up, hey Stephen, here I am. Do you want to have coffee? Um but you've been up all night helping a sick friend. Or otherwise, you're just too stressed to want to meet me right now. Your desire is to say no. But what if you suppress that no? And you say yes for the fear of displeasing me or disappointing me or losing my friendship. If I say no, Gabor won't like me anymore. What's going to be the impact on you if you keep behaving that way? Physically, what's going to be the impact? I'm going to be going to be more tired, more exhausted, probably going to be more stressed. All that. Yeah. You're going to be resentful. Disconnected from Yeah, exactly. You know, so so it's not a this so this person, they need to the I I teach this exercise in the book about where am I not saying no? And what is my belief behind saying not saying no? I don't want to upset Gabor if he's coming to me. Exactly. And and and I and I depend on Gabor's liking. Yes. You know. Uh which means as a child, you depended on your parents' liking and you had to suppress your no's to be liked. Thirdly, where did I learn this belief that if I say no, I'm not likable or I'm guilty or I'm not worthwhile, you know? And the fourth question is, um who would I be without that belief? You know, uh and so if if your friend does this exercise regularly, believe me, she can turn it around. But it takes some practice. Who would I be without that belief? Yeah. When I put myself in her shoes or I put myself in a people pleaser's shoes, I wouldn't I'm a people pleaser in in certain environments, but I wouldn't say I'm generally. Yeah. Um I can imagine someone would respond to that and say, well, I'd lose all my friends. She'd find out who her friends really were. Because the real friends would celebrate it. They'd say, oh, finally, we're so glad to see you being yourself. The friends that were just using her or relying on her to be their supporter um unconditionally, uh will turn away. And I say this to people, this contest between attachment and authenticity can be a painful one, but you can decide which kind of pain you want. As a child, you had no choice. As an adult, it's true, if you're authentic, you might lose some attachment relationships. That's going to be painful. But which pain would you rather have? The pain of being authentic and losing some friendships that were no friendships at all? Or the pain of of of of losing yourself and all its implications and all its impacts on the body. So, um it it would be difficult for her and it's true, some relationships that she has now that would fade away, but my god, she'd also attract much more genuine and authentic relationships. And her true friends would really celebrate her. You know, now let me tell you something that just occurred to me, but forget it. The there was a um book written by an Australian nurse about 12 years ago. And she this nurse, like I used to work in palliative care with dying people, she works with in hospice with dying people. And these are people who tend to die of of of malignancy and chronic illness well before that time. And she wrote a book called the the the top five regrets of dying people. Bronnie Ware. And uh you know what the top regret was? That I wasn't being myself. That I wasn't true to myself. I wasn't being authentic. That's the top regret of dying people. And and the um the third one was that I didn't express my feelings for fear of disturbing or or displeasing others. So, authenticity is not just a new age concept. It's actually a central dynamic in staying healthy human beings. Oh, one more thing. So, yesterday I was in Westminster Abbey. And I was looking at all these beautifully and articulately worded monuments to all these colonialists. To all the people that oppressed and murdered and robbed and despoiled native people all over the world. They're the heroes of the British Empire. And I think one of the reasons there's such a strong pushback against the idea of trauma in this society is if you recognize trauma, which exists not only on the personal individual level, but very much on the collective level, the ruling elites in this country would have to come to terms with the fact that their wealth is based on the traumatization of foreign peoples, which incidentally was one of the crimes of Harry. Is that he pointed that out. The the that let's face it, the royalty, the wealth that I was born into was achieved at the despoilation and oppression of people around the world. So, trauma is not just a personal issue. It's very much a social and collective and historical issue. What's the cure? You know, cuz if we're if we're many of us are byproducts of generational trauma and we're seeking different ways to ease our pain through through the means of addiction, whether it's pornography or heroin or alcohol. Um we can't all afford expensive therapists. But we exhibit those self-destructive behavior patterns maybe every single day, maybe with social media addictions or whatever. What do we do? Unfortunately, uh the health care systems around the world have very poor appreciation of the emotional contribution to people's physical or mental ill health. And most physicians and most psychiatrists are not trained in it. Unfortunately, there's a huge um gap between science and research on the one hand and medical practice on the other. It's maddening sometimes to contemplate it. Um So, the first step would be to educate the the caregivers. Just educate doctors about the actual science of the mind-body connection and the impacts of trauma. Educate them. So, when you go to a physician with um say chronic fatigue or um inflammation of your joints, they don't just give you the necessary medication, which I'm not against, but they'll also ask you, "What's going on?" You know? So, that's the first thing. Second thing is let's prevent the problem. So, let's support young families to be really there for their kids. So that families don't have to struggle economically. And the parents are so stressed. Um As I may have mentioned, I've forgotten now, when parents are emotionally stressed, economically stressed, according to a number of studies, the kids' stress hormone levels are abnormal. And that is a harbinger of future disease. And so, let's look after young families. Let's make people feel secure. Uncertainty, lack of control, uh lack of information, these are some of the drivers of physiological stress. So, let's create a society where there's a more sense of mutual acceptance and commonality and and and social support. You know? Let teachers be educated that the kids who are so-called misbehaving are kids who are actually troubled. Troubled because of stuff at home and that the solution is not to exclude them or to punish them, but to actually give them emotional support in the classroom and in the schools. Let the schools be the human brain, according to a Harvard study, develops um from before birth. It's an ongoing process that begins before birth and continues into adulthood. The necessary conditions for human brain development is safe, uh supportive emotional relationship with adults. Let everybody who deals with children, from social workers to teachers to daycare workers to kindergarten um supervisors to to parents, understand the emotional needs of kids. And and provide that safety. Uh let the justice system, so-called, about which there's very little just, um uh in Canada, 50% of the women in jail are indigenous. They make up 6% of the population. 50% of the jail population. You call that justice? You take the most traumatized people who then act out their traumas and then you punish them for it. So, let the medical system, let the educational system, let the legal system understand child development and trauma. Now, in terms of the adult, to answer your question more specifically, so there's a social answer, Mhm. but then there's the individual answer. Yeah, a lot of people can't afford good therapy. It's true. It's expensive and and and even if there's a lot of people who are get therapy but not getting appropriate therapy. Well, if you can't afford therapy, go to the library, read some books. My own, but not just my own. I could rattle off five other books you should read. Read Dick Schwartz's book on internal family systems called No Bad Parts. Read Bessel van der Kolk's book on trauma called The Body Keeps the Score. Read Peter Levine's book Waking the Tiger on trauma. Read Oprah Winfrey's and Bruce Perry's book What Happened to You? Read Bruce Perry's book called uh The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog. Um I mean, have you even read Peter Levine? Oh, yeah. Oh, good. Oh, good. Wonderful. I'm glad to hear that. He's one of my mentors and friends. And we often work together. Uh so, this is and and and all of these books will have some advice about how to help yourself, including my books. Then, there's a lot of stuff on the internet. So, this uh the interview that you and I had a year ago, I checked this morning, has been seen by 2 and 1/2 million people. I'm sure it's helped a lot of people. It's a lot that you can get, just, you know, freely. Nobody's going to get charged to you know, on the YouTube. Um lots of my talks are available. Lots of talks by other really good people available. Do that. There's self-help groups of all kinds. Um Is there a risk here? This is what the the one side of the narrative sometimes argue that you can kind of over-traumatize your life in terms of over-labeling everything that you do as a trauma. So, you know, and I mean, the that always happens, right? When when people become aware of something, they become over-aware and they start over-labeling and saying, "That's a trauma response. That's a trauma response. That's a trauma response." And they kind of live with a feeling that they are inherently broken. Yeah, but my point is that nobody's broken. Um Actually, I talked about our first nature. That's always there. When people recover, it's an interesting word, recovery. What does it mean to recover? When you recover something, what are you doing? Going back to You're finding it. Oh, yeah. Actually, yeah. That's the definition of the word, isn't it? What do people find when they recover? They find their true selves. That's what they'll tell you. That true self never went away. Nobody's damaged goods. Nobody's broken. To talk about trauma is not to disempower people, but to empower them. If I learn that my response to the British media and the Harry issue was actually it's nothing to do with the present moment. It's actually some old programming. Oh, okay. Now I can drop it. Are you glad it happened? I'm glad that everything happened cuz everything is learning. Nothing in this this life is wasted if you know how to use it properly. And um so, what I'm saying is that to under- to to be aware of trauma is not to lose power, but to gain it because it's not an excuse. I can't keep going to my wife and saying, "I'm being resentful of you and and punishing you because my mother didn't take good care of me when I was a baby cuz she was too stressed." You know? I mean, that that that's lack of responsibility. But to for me to understand that my demands on my wife to take care of me like a mother would of a baby actually is my trauma response, then I can drop it. Cuz I'm not a baby anymore. I don't need I'm not that helpless. I'm not that resourceless. Um I'm not that um ungrounded. So, that when you recognize trauma, it's not in order to use it as an excuse, but to actually to overcome it. That's the whole point. When we talked about the suppression of our emotions and anger, you used the word healthy anger. Yeah. When you you know, cuz there's a there's a risk, isn't there, when you're saying that anger can be a positive thing, that people will then assume that berating someone behind a counter or a waitress in a restaurant because they got one item on your order wrong is standing up for your boundaries. I've done it. Yeah. No, it's not. So, healthy anger is in the moment. And it's just a boundary defense. It's not outrage. It's you're in my space, get out. That's its purpose. That's its only purpose. Or to protect something like a You want to see anger? Um Try and tell a mother bear not to be close to their to their cubs, you know? You'll find out what healthy mother anger is all about, you know? That's just healthy. The kind of rage you're talking about, have you ever had that kind of rage? Definitely on a spectrum. I've got I've got So, the reason I struggle with the answer is because I've got a friend that's fully shown me what the that's the extreme side of that is, where we used to call it the red mist with him, where he would literally lose control. is incidentally what Harry used to call his anger. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. My friend So, my friend um my friend, one of my best friends in the world, he he talks about this all the time is he had you could trigger him by saying something, usually by saying he was wrong about something. Yeah. Or something like that. Yeah. And then he would just lose it. So, I remember the first the last time it happened was and the pandemic rolled in, I was staying with him at in his apartment cuz the lockdown and I was living in America at the time. And we were discussing the virus. And I said to him, um I think people that are older and that have certain health um situations are more at risk. And he said to me, "No, people that are younger are more at risk." And I said and I showed it an NHS um website which said, "No, it's people that are older are more at risk." Yeah. And he just went into this red mist. Okay. He was totally triggered and lost control of his emotions. Okay, so if you observed him then, what you would have noticed is remember what I said about healthy anger? It's in the present moment. Once it's done its job, it's gone. Yeah. Your friend, the angrier he gets, the angrier he gets. Yeah. So the the rage just keeps building on itself. Now we talk about a fit of anger. It's a good word. You know where else we talk about fits? It's epileptic fits. In epileptic fits, certain electrical miswiring in the brain then recruits other brain circuits and it gets more and more and more until whole the whole body shaking and the person may even lose consciousness and soil themselves and so on. That's an epileptic fit. A fit of anger is the same. The the a fit of rage is the same. So that the more severe it gets, the more of his brain circuits it recruits. So rather than expending itself, doing its job and then being gone, it actually gets worse and worse and worse. That's unhealthy anger and triggering is a good word. Because look at what the word triggering means. Now if you look at a weapon, how big a part of the weapon is the trigger? This big. For the trigger to set off anything, there has to be ammunition there. There has to be um explosive material there. So your friend is carrying a lot of explosive material. I can tell you, your friend never felt understood or validated as a child. And he's still carrying the rage of that. So you trigger him and then by disagreeing with him and all the pain of invalidation, all the rage of not being understood now gets triggered and recruits more and more of his brain circuits. Now I can tell you something. Healthy anger is essential for our physical integrity. That rage, in the absolute in the in the aftermath of a rage episode, your risk of a heart attack or stroke doubles for for the next 2 hours, according to studies. Because what happens? Your blood pressure goes up, your blood vessels narrow, and the clotting factors in your blood increase. So of course you are at more risk. So the repression of anger can lead to chronic illness, but so can rage lead to uh heart attacks and uh and strokes and so on. So anger is a delicate thing. Shall I say something about my friend that we found out because he then went to a childhood psychologist Oh, good. himself. And that's why I said that was the last time. So you can imagine that was 3 years ago. Yeah. The pandemic, 2 3 years ago. He went to a childhood psychologist and what they uncovered through their work was that as a kid he he was not only um a foot shorter than all the other kids, Yeah. but he was both dyslexic and struggled a lot intellectually. So um the people around him and on his report card basically called him stupid as a child. And then he actually found a text I think he found a text message at some point between his mom and his nan Yeah. where they were diminishing his chances of success. And he grew up with this deep sense of like I am not intelligent. A deep deep sense of it. And it's come out in all of these ways as an adult. And that you're right. Yeah. That's what was going on in that moment. I was challenging I was taking him back probably. Well, and you know what? That again to come back to Harry, that's what happened to him. They called him stupid and thicko and naughty. And he was none of none of those things. He just had trouble of concentrating and being attention because of all the stress. My friend has ADHD as well. Yeah, yeah. And and so in his book he describes that he'd been told he had post-traumatic stress. I didn't diagnose him with all this stuff. It's in his book. I said, "You know what? But I think given how you you were distracted as a kid, you had trouble paying attention, um they called you stupid, this is ADD. And um I wasn't saying he's got a disease. I was saying you actually that was a normal response that you had to an abnormal situation where that you were under a lot of stress and they made you wrong for it. They called you naughty. They called you stupid. They called you thicko. You're not any of that. Now the whole bunch of British psychiatrists got their knickers tied in a knot because I made that diagnosis, you know. Um My God, people. I was saying to the guy, "You don't have a disease. You have a normal response to abnormal circumstances. You were not stupid ever." But but children undergo this character assassination like you offended. And imagine the rage inside him. So when you disagree with him, you're triggering all that. It's just that's just how it works. Now interestingly enough, people call me stupid. That's not a trigger for me. Yeah, it's not for me. Because I know I'm not. You know, I I always grew up with a sense of my own intelligence, not to overstate it, but I know never had any doubt about it. But certain things you can do Yeah. like not see me and that'll trigger me. And for context for anybody that doesn't know why you not being seen triggers you, Well, look. I was born you know, I may have mentioned this last year. So I was born 2 months before the Nazis occupied Budapest. Then they started exterminating all the Hungarian Jews. So literally, my life was under threat cuz they didn't see me as a human being. They saw me as vermin. You know, now not that I knew that directly, but my mother, can you imagine what it was like for her to have a 2-month-old and living under the risk of death all the time for a whole year. And then as I mentioned before, she gave me to a stranger to save my life. And I didn't see her for 5 weeks. Well, that's not being seen. And my father's not there to see me cuz he's in forced labor. So literally, not being seen threatened my life. So no wonder when people uh when that happens now, you know, that for me is the trigger. Now the of course the answer is is to see myself. If I fully see myself, it doesn't matter whether you see me or not. You know, so if you see me, if you're not seeing me, if you're distorting who I am in your mind and in your words bothers me, it's only because I'm still counting on you uh or other people to see me cuz I don't know how to see myself. If I'm fully confident in myself, I'll say, "Gee, it's too bad, you know, uh Steven doesn't see me. Well, maybe we'll talk talk about it or maybe he'll never understand it, but I don't live in his mind." How do I fully see myself? It's hard to do, right? It's it's it's hard to do because when you were seen, it's not hard to do. Because you children see themselves through their parents' eyes. Yeah. But when you were not seen, then you have to learn it. This is one of the things to go back to meditation. That's not the only way. First of all, notice all the ways that you're not seeing yourself. Like 2 days ago, when I had this anxiety about how maybe I didn't give my best talk on Monday evening, you know what? I did my best. May not have been perfect, but I prepared for it. I put myself out there for 2 hours. And um I spoke a lot of truth. Might not have been the best, but so what? But but but but at that moment I wasn't seeing myself. You know, I could still lose it. So meditation, which is the form of meditation that at least I am learning, is about just noticing and seeing what's going on inside without judgment. So being aware. So let's practice. And you also suggested removing the things from your life that will stop you from seeing yourself, like social media. Well, because that can be a lot of friction. remove social media from my life, but what I can remove is my attachment to it. For example, I don't have to look at the comments on all my talks on YouTube. Who says what, who likes it, who doesn't like it. You know, I'm not on Facebook. I don't have a I have a professional Facebook page, but I don't administer it. Um but people go on Facebook and who says what, who likes me, who doesn't like me. You know, they can wean themselves off that. So we may not be able to stay off social media um to write my books. Thank God for the internet. But I don't have to be attached to it. So it's it's it's it's using it, but not letting it use you. 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Yeah, the the social media and all these things, these stimuli, they I I feel like they've I'm concerned that many of us are living in a state of chronic stress, mild background Yeah. stress. Yeah. And I say that a lot because the amount of times that I catch myself, I spoke to James Nestor who talks a lot about breathing and breath. Yeah. And the amount of times that I now catch myself very shallow in breath Mhm. after just looking at my my phone or thinking about something. Yeah. Let's get my get some oxygen back into me. In bed at 1:00 a.m. as I'm trying to sleep, catch my breath being shallow. During this podcast when I start thinking about something, my breath gets really shallow. Looking at my phone, my breath gets really shallow. I live in this I feel like I'm living in a state of like constant subtle background stress. Yeah. Well, I'm I'm glad you mentioned breath because um it's one of the to go back to the question of what people can do for themselves, they can learn to breathe. And Eckhart Tolle is a spiritual teacher. Um he says that um rather than go to retreats and therapists, just take a few conscious breaths several times a day. I mean, not that not to dismiss the other, but that's more important than anything else. And interestingly enough, the Buddha, when he was teaching his monks, in fact, one of the Buddha's assistants, Ananda, asked him um "Oh holy one, do you still meditate?" And he said, "Yes." "And what kind of meditation do you practice?" says Ananda. And uh Buddha says, "Observing the breath." So, in Buddhist meditation, and I'm not here to advocate for any particular pathway, and I'm not a practitioner of any religion, but he this this this is very wise man. Um he taught awareness of breath as the most important portal into into reality. What do you think that the antidote is for the way we've designed our lives to be constant in this sort of stressful stimulation and cuz we're clearly I was just wondering if human beings are supposed to endure this much constant stimulus and stress in their lives, and with, you know, chronic inflammation and all these kinds of things are now killing people at alarming rates. The the you know, the the diseases that are caused by inflammation. What can we do about our stress? And is it is it okay? Maybe it's okay. Well, um it's the norm, so you can say it's normal. Is it okay? Well, the question is to be answered by looking at what the impacts are. And what are the impacts? You know, the impacts are very serious. For um you can see it on the individual level and in terms of mental health conditions, as I said earlier, are burgeoning internationally. Um autoimmune conditions are uh but if you look at it on also on the social level, there's more conflict, there's more um division, there's more intolerance in our culture than it has been for quite a while. These are the impacts of the stressful culture that we live in. So, is it okay? Yeah, if you want to if you want this, it's okay. But if you don't, it's not okay. It depends what you want. Relationships. Yeah. Romantic relationships. Yeah. Um thought a lot about the role that our trauma plays in our ability to form relationships. Obviously, society's changed quite profoundly in the last couple of decades. Different sort of gender transformations have caused certain mismatches and difficulties with people connecting. The world has gone very digital now, so dating apps run the run a lot of dating. I think 50% of people originally meet online. That's their first point of contact. Dating is very very hard for people, and there's a lot of people that are kind of giving up on it. Mhm. Um attachment, dating, trauma, um I've come to learn that we are mirrors. I think I found love in my life when not when I discovered anything externally, but when I did a lot of work to figure out the the barriers that were standing in my way of connection. Well, you just answered your own question. Oh, really? Yeah. We can't form proper relationships until we have the capacity to be alone and be comfortable with ourselves. You know, and the more comfortable you can be alone, which is different from being lonely, by the way. Um the more capacity to be actually to be to be alone to be with yourself and to grow on yourself in your own truth, the more likely you're able to form meaningful and positive relationships. And rather than asking me, a lot of people want into relationships to solve their problems. Then there's the initial in love phase where everything is just ideal, you know, and then reality hits. And then all of a sudden, that person who you're so infatuated with becomes your enemy, and you hate them so much. You know, I mean, I've experienced such hatred for my wife over the years. And uh when I've been disappointed or dissatisfied, you know, because I was looking to her to fill me with, and nobody can fill you from the outside. So, so once you no longer need it, um once you no longer are dependent on it, then you can enter into a healthy relationship. Or, to put it more positively, a relationship can be a real ground for mutual growth. So, you can enter into a relationship. You're not going to be perfect. You're never going to be perfect. Um carry a certain degree of trauma, certain degree of dysfunction, certain things that trigger you, as we said earlier. But you But if both people are committed to the truth, which my wife and I have been. I mean, that's one thing you can say about ourselves, you know. For all the stuff that we've been through, ultimately the truth mattered more than who's right and who's wrong. So, if you're committed to the truth and working it out, and if the fundamental love is there, then you can grow together. And so, for me, the relationship has been the most important growth growing ground of my life, not the therapy that I've had or the reading that I've done. Uh not that I'm dismissing any of that, but the actual relationship has been my um most important schooling in in in in how to become authentic. There's no real chance of a good relationship if one or more parties in that relationship aren't committed to truth and they're committed to being right or to victory or It happens all the time. As I said earlier, people always meet at the same level of of of of emotional development or trauma resolution, so that water finding its own level. But when one person starts growing and the other doesn't, it becomes impossible. Either the person that does the growing gives it up and goes back to their previous self, which is almost impossible, or the other person is challenged to start growing themselves, or they're going to split. That That's just what's going to happen. And again, to go back to the situation between men and women, this is what tends to happen, and I've seen it in my own marriage, I've seen it in as a physician, as an observer of human beings. The couple are kind of getting along, but then the children come along. Now, the mother's caring energy has to go towards the children, where it needs to go. The father may feel now a bit of a their nose is a bit out of joint, cuz now they're not getting the attention. And now the woman has a decision to make. Do I look after the 3-day-old baby or the 3-month-old baby, or do I look after the 35-year-old baby? And to the extent that the mother chooses to look after the 35-year-old baby, she's depriving the 3-month-old. A lot of women then make a choice that I need to look after my kids, and I can't put all this caring energy mothering caring energy into my husband anymore. And then relationships get into trouble cuz the guys can't stand it. I've seen this over and over and over. I'm not saying it's universal, but it's very common. Sex. In your practice, I imagine you've come across this quite quite often where there's a sexless relationship, and that's causing issues. What is typically the true cause of that? Mhm. Um that disconnect in the in the with intimacy, with sex, in the bedroom, cuz a lot of people are struggling with that. Yeah. Well, first of all, I think um today we jump into sexuality way too early. In other words, um we talk about intimacy, but intimacy really means the innermost. And we tend to have physical intimacy before we have emotional intimacy. So that um people jump into bed rather quickly. I'm not being prude or I'm not being prudish here. I'm not prescribing that you should only get have sex when you get married or anything like that. But when we enter into sexuality early, without the emotional intimacy and the emotional authenticity, then the sex become divorced becomes divorced from our uh our real needs. And especially for women who who tend to And I I can't speak of everybody, but in general, women tend want to have more intimacy emotionally. Um that becomes very hard. And if the emotional intimacy doesn't follow, sex becomes kind of mechanical. Becomes mechanical. Yeah. Um So, that's one big reason. The other reason we already talked about this sort of parenting dynamic between the genders. Yeah. Uh now, I know we're only talking about the two major genders now. There's all kinds of gender variations these days and uh but these dynamics exist in all kinds of context. So, that when one partner is doing all the emotional carrying or most of the emotional carrying, this is parent-child relationship that really deadens the sexual drive. You know what I'm saying here? Sorry? Mercia Pye. She's a a psychologist. She actually said to me the other day, "Never call your partner mommy or daddy." Yeah. For this very reason. Yeah, well, oh oh good. That's that's a good way to put it. I I think it's because we um we put sexuality um And this society, of course, just glorifies sexuality. You know, and if you look at some of the most famous sex symbols, who were they? Um abused women. You know, like a Marilyn Monroe, deeply traumatized child. And abused as an adult by President Kennedy and just about everybody. And she was the the woman everyone wanted to sleep with. You know, so that is really distorted sexuality here. And for women especially, uh safety is so important for sexuality. Yeah. Um as we talk about frigid women, um but when do people freeze? It's a fear response. It's It's nobody's true nature. It's just a response. And usually something happened to them or something is happening now. So, that then un-melting can happen in a condition of safety. And then the intimacy, the emotional intimacy is there, which creates the safety for the sexual opening. And that's the dynamic in my marriage as well. You know, uh you know what my wife says what my wife says, she says, "Truth is sexy." Such a good point. Yeah. Is there anything in your practice that you're increasingly being confronted with in the last couple of years that you weren't seeing as much as when you first started? Um what I see out there is increasing distress in this society and and people are more confused. And young people are just so challenged. And uh the the in the United States, the the rate of childhood suicide is going up. You know, suicide. You know, um more and more kids are being medicated for all kinds of conditions. Um in the US, 70% of the adult population is at least on one medication. Um um a quarter of women at least in the US are on antidepressants or anti-anxiety medications. Th- those numbers are going up in Britain as well from all the statistics that I see. So, I see is a a growing um manifestations of of of distress, what I call a toxic culture. I see that all the time. And look, I I mean the fact that this book, The Myth of Normal, is being published in North Macedonia and Thailand and Vietnam and in in in in Northern Europe and in Eastern Europe and it's just worldwide there's this epidemic of distress. That's what I'm seeing. And I'm saying people, either we can look upon this as some unexplainable misfortune and bad luck, or we can actually look for the actual causes of it in the way we that relate to each other, in the way that we raise our children, in the way that we approach ourselves. And I'm saying that solutions are possible, but yeah, the world is getting more and more difficult for a lot of people. I do see that. And I don't think it's going to get better anytime soon. You're not optimistic. So, Noam Chomsky once said that when he was asked if he's optimistic or pessimistic, he says uh he says, "Strategically, I'm an optimist and tactically, I'm a pessimist." Uh which means that in the long term, I do believe in people. I mean, and I'm the same way. I do believe in human beings. I do believe in the human capacity to to grow, to transform, to to come to a deeper grounded sanity in themselves both on an individual and a social level. I do believe in that. If I didn't believe that, I would just stay at home and read books and listen to music. Um I do believe in that. I'm optimistic in that sense. But at the same time, I think in the short term, it's getting darker and darker. And you can see that so many manifestations of that. So, yeah, I am optimistic. I believe in humanity and human beings. And I think we have a hard road to to travel before we get to our better sense of self. Um I have to close this conversation by seeking some solutions. You used the word solutions there and you talked about this better sense of self. On an We've talked about it from a social level, what governments can do to change Yeah. education systems and Yeah. on an individual level, on a family level, what can what can I do? Well, um first of all, you need to define what your actual goals are. Okay, so let me try. I want to be I want to do work that helps serves others. I want to do work that I um I find fulfilling and that keeps me challenged. Yeah. And I want to which incidentally serves your health cuz it's been shown that people that live a life of purpose and meaning, they're physiologically healthier. I want to be healthy because I want to do all of these things for longer. Yeah. Yeah. Um I want to have relationships that are full and true and raw and honest. Okay. Um and I want to I think that's it. That's the work and personal. And then I want to raise a family that is beautiful and pure and free of as much trauma as I can possibly make them be. And I want to be close to my children in a way that I wasn't close to my parents. Yeah. Well, then the question you're going to have to you have to ask yourself is um what factors in your life support those goals and what don't. What activities are you engaged in that will support those aims? What will undermine them? And uh seek to diminish or eliminate the ones that are undermining your goals and uh and and strengthen the ones that are supporting it. You know, that's what it is. And um you know, and your intentions, by the way, are not only superficially the ones you articulate. If I want to know your real intentions, I have to look at how you live your life, not what you say about it. So, wh- when I was a young parent, if you had asked me, "What is your goal? What's your intention?" I would have said it's the happiness of my children. And I would have said that totally sincerely. If you had looked at how I lived my life as a workaholic doctor, not available to my kids, always right there looking for mm being important and serving others and and and and and you know, being at the center of people's lives because I was so essential to them, my actual intention was self-importance. My stated intention, the be- the the happiness of my children, as much as I would have meant it sincerely, did not jive with how I was living my life. So, what you need to ask yourself is what anybody needs to ask themselves is look at your intentions, both the conscious ones and also the ones that show up when you look at how you actually live your life, and bring the two into alignment. So, look at again what serves your intentions and what undermines it. Mhm. And look at that seriously. That would be my answer. It's so difficult to distinguish between the two sometimes because I mean, on the surface, the the the system you gave there of actually looking at how I'm allocating my time and is my time being allocated towards things that would further what I'm saying my intentions are is a very useful exercise to run. But, you know, as I said those things that I said as my stated goals, I do find a disconnect, I think. I think those things have been handed to us. When we when you ask someone their goals, they will say things that will make the person asking the question think well of them. Because there's one goal that you didn't state. Which is I stayed away from the selfish goals? No. What's what what's the one I didn't state? Inner peace. Mhm. Because without inner peace, you're not going to be able to serve any of those goals properly. Mhm. Or if you were, you'd do it at some risk to yourself. And so, um h- how would that be for you as a goal, inner peace? And then, if running around serving others in the name of this so-called higher goal undermines your inner peace, then you're not on the right track. Mhm. And you know who I'm talking to? I'm talking to myself. Mhm. Talking to me as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Inner peace is not a selfish goal. Uh it's from a position of safety uh sorry, a position of inner peace that we can speak compassionately and truthfully to others, that we can um serve our other goals. But, you know, Eckhart Tolle talks about our inner purpose and our external purpose. And you stated a bunch of external purposes. And that's why there's the dis- I believe Mhm. if I may pardon the the diagnosis, but or the analysis, but but that's why that disconnect that you mentioned. Cuz the goals that you stated were largely external. Mhm. And what are the internal goals? Inner peace. Very good. Yeah. Now, you have to put that into the mix. And once you be once you do, I don't believe that Now, nobody handed that to you. I just I think this is the issue with the workaholics is we think that the path to inner peace is just by aiming at the external goals. Like I think I think maybe at some level that's what I believe. Workaholics think they can work their way or validate external validate or trophy their way or number one book their way to inner peace. Because temporarily, when your book shows up as number one on the best-sellers list or it shows up at all, you feel some inner peace. But it's addictive. And there's a wonderful physician and researcher Vince Felitti, who studied childhood trauma quite a bit and um showing its relationship to adult negative outcomes. And he said, "It's hard to get enough of something that almost works." And uh so yeah, you can get that temporary inner peace, but look at the long-term consequences of the workaholism. It's not inner peace. I can tell you that. You know, I can tell you after long experience. Doesn't matter even how successful you are out there. We started the conversation with this. It's never going to give you inner peace. Inner peace doesn't come from the outside. That's not a goal anybody ever handed to you. That's something that you have to come to yourself. You know this. How are you acting in line with what you know? Are you Are you doing it well? You know what? Um I'm not going to give myself 100% by any means. I mean, just look at this week. But I'm doing so much better than I ever did. And I'm so much more comfortable about it and so much more comfortable about the future as well. You know, I am. What is the one thing that we didn't discuss that maybe is the most important thing for my audience that are listening right now? That not that we should impose suffering on any children or anybody in order to teach them anything. Life will bring its own suffering. But when suffering comes along, there's two things we can do with it. Um we can try and just get rid of it, not to feel it, to numb ourselves, or we can actually learn from it. So, suffering and pain can be big teachers if you know how to relate to them. So, when illness comes along, when a crisis comes along in your life, you might notice that the Chinese word for cri- for crisis is made up of two character letters meaning uh danger and opportunity. Really? So, when there's a crisis, there's danger, but there's also opportunity to learn and to grow. And um there's such a thing as growing older. In other words, not just getting older, but actually growing older. And you actually still keep growing as you get older. And that growing older actually has to do with becoming more and more authentic to yourself. So, sometimes I do that successfully, sometimes I don't. But that's really the journey. And I'd recommend that journey to everybody. You can actually grow older. In other In other words, you don't have to shrink. You can actually grow. When you said the word growth there, it reminded me of something you said in a topic we haven't actually talked about, which I did want to speak to you about, which is vulnerability. Yeah. I remember you making this interesting connection. I saw it somewhere online between vulnerability and and growth. Yeah. And vulnerability is a risk for a lot of people. It's always felt like a risk for me. So, vulnerability comes from the Latin word vulnerare, to wound. To wound? Yeah, that's vulnerare, to wound. And so, as human beings or as any living creature, we're all profoundly vulnerable. From the moment that we're conceived to the moment we die, we can be wounded. We can be wounded physically, we can be wounded emotionally. That's just a given. Um when children are safe and seen and understood, they can accept their vulnerability cuz they have the confidence that they can um deal with it. But when children are traumatized or um not understood, not seen, the vulner- and they're alone emotionally, the vulnerability becomes too painful to bear. So, we shut down our sense of vulnerability in order not to feel the pain. But when you look at life, nothing grows without vulnerability. So, a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it? It goes where it's tender and soft and there's these shoots that are very vulnerable. They can be eaten by animals or insects. A a crustacean animal like a crab cannot grow inside a hard shell. What does it have to do when it needs to grow? It molts and becomes this soft creature that's very vulnerable. But without that vulnerability, there's no growth. Without emotional vulnerability, there's also no growth. And so much of our culture is designed to deny vulnerability and to shut it down or to somehow distract ourselves from it. And what's the cost? And the cost is that we we stay immature and that we lose ourselves. That's what the cost is. So, I also think vulnerability is the is And I've just learned this from doing this podcast that vulnerability is a great connector. Yeah. When I much of the reason why I have good conversations on this podcast, I think it's because I'm willing to be open myself. Yeah. Which which then allows your client your your your your guest the safety to open up themselves. And in your personal life with your friends, I mean, what's more I mean, you can talk about the scandal of Newcastle beating Manchester City in the in some game recently by one to nothing. Which is not I don't say to talk about it if that's interesting to you, but which is more meaningful to you? That or when you actually share Share your struggle. that you struggle in your what's going on for you. I mean, there's no contest. But so much of this culture is designed to distract ourselves from our vulnerability. Okay, but we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to leave it for. Yeah. Question that's been left for you, it's quite a long one. Um Today is your last day on Earth. Yeah. You're allowed to make two phone calls. One phone call to the person you love the most and the second phone call to the entire world. What do you say on both of those phone calls? What John Lennon sang all those years ago. All you need is love. And the phone call to the person you love the most? To the person I love the most, I don't have to say anything at all. Why? Cuz she knows. But if you were calling her on that last day, I'd say thank you. What for? For everything. And uh you know what? I may even say that to the world. I may even say thank you, you know, I mean, for um for all the struggles and the travails and troubles and tribulations of childhood and adulthood and parenting and career and all this. Thank you. You You've given me so much. That's what I would say. You know, I mean, if if I wasn't giving advice, which is all you need is love, which is advice. No, forget that. I'd say I'd just say thank you. How do you want to be remembered? As somebody who did his best to make a difference. And who made a difference. Which I know I have, by the way. So, um not that everybody agrees with me, but I also know I've made a difference. What difference do you think you've made? How How to say this without sounding egotistical? Um But I get so many messages from around the world. I mean, literally from around the world. That reading my books has transformed people's relationship to themselves, to make them understand themselves. Um I think um I mentioned maybe in a different interview that the best review I ever had of The Myth of Normal was that um some young guy said to me, "Thank you. I read that book and I remembered myself." So, um my work for those who are open to it, really helps to connect them to themselves and to see themselves clearly. And that's that's a gift. In a world where it's increasingly hard to see who you really are. Yeah, and it's hard for people to see themselves. And so, people don't see themselves as broken or as ir- irretrievably damaged, but actually they can begin to see their capacity for wholeness, which incidentally is the root of the word health, is wholeness. And uh so, um that's the difference I'm I'm making is that people can see themselves not as broken and damaged, but there's actually fundamentally whole with some stuff to work through. That's it. We can learn so much from children, can't we? So much of your work brings us back to the first nature as you describe it of children. Yeah. Well, a lot of parents will tell you and you'll find out is that the greatest teachers are your are your children, if you're willing to learn. Gabor, thank you. Thank you so much. I it's a difficult question to ask someone else about the impact they've made on the world, but I but even what you said I think is a huge understatement because the people that I know close to me, like my partner, who like my partner, who just I mean, her life I think has been changed personally, but also professionally. Much of the reason she does the work she does, she's the reason why she's not here to meet you cuz she would have fly she would have got on the next flight to fly here is because she's doing a retreat in the south of France with a big group of women. Much of the work she does there is built on the work that you've written about in your books and taught online. So, not only have you impacted people personally, but you've impacted the next generation of teachers and therapists. Um which is going to be a generational It's like a domino's effect. It's It was counteracting the generational trauma is the generational healing that has come about because of people like you um who are wizards in our culture and that are willing in the face of often great um you know, adversaries who take a different stance to persist with truth. Well, thank you. And And one of the things that most en- enlighten me is that when I go about London or any city in the world just about these days, it's all kinds of young people coming up to me thanking me. It's not people my I mean, people of all ages, but I'm just so enthused by how young generations, like people one quarter my age, are coming up to me to thank me. Well, that shows me that it's making a difference. 100%. If she could have been here now, she was so annoyed. She realized she'd booked a retreat on the same day that you were coming to to London cuz you didn't get to meet you last time cuz she was in Bali, so Oh, well, some other time. She'll be watching this, trust me. She's probably watching live right now. But But thank you so much, Gabor, again for your generosity and your wisdom. It's changed my life and it continues to change many other people that are listening to this but all around the world. So, thank you. Thanks so much. As you guys may know, this podcast is sponsored by one of my favorite brands in all the world, which is Whoop. AI is a topic I've spoken about various times on this podcast, and it's a topic that I'm pretty obsessed with, but we don't often talk about how it could be used as a force to make our lives even better. Whoop is using the power of AI to drive meaningful positive change. My Whoop doesn't leave my wrist, and their new feature, which is called Whoop Coach, uses the power of advanced AI to synthesize all of your health and fitness data and to provide you with personalized recommendations to support you on your health and fitness journey. 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