Craig David Opens Up About His Painful Rise, Fall & Redemption | E135

Could you do me a quick favor? If you're listening to this, please hit the follow or subscribe button. It helps more than you know, and we invite subscribers in every month to watch the show in person. Making moves, yeah, on a dance floor. This means so, so much to me. Everything I touched was turning into gold. Everyone wanted a piece of me, and How does an 18-19 year old deal with that? The height of success when it is like, "Whoa." There's so much of the the human part that's being unmet. I felt like I was starting to make that tick boxes. When I started to do a band myself, and I started to do things that just weren't in alignment, it was a point where I had dark thoughts. I was just like, "I can't live my life like this." What people enjoyed from me was music, and I realized that when I came back to London. I feel like the kid again, and trust me, the crowd are going to go off when they hear something soon, okay? So, 22 years later, if you could whisper in the ear of your 14-year-old self, what would you whisper? Listen, Craig. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Craig, I've got some lyrics that I wanted to recite to you, okay? It's another day at school, and he's just walking out the door. Got his rucksack on his back, and his feet dragging on the floor. Always late, but when he's questioned, he can't think of what to say. Hides the bruises from the teachers hoping that they'd go away. Even though his mom and dad, they both got problems of their own, caught in a catch-22, but he'd still rather be at home. Cries himself to sleep and prays when he wakes up things might have changed, but everything's the same. That's from your record, Johnny, from 2006. Yeah. That was a That was a That was a song that I had to It was the first time, I think, kind of opening up and and expressing uh experience that I felt I had maybe on a lesser degree to a lot of other people in my school. I think at school, like in my my secondary school, I had a a very I had a beautiful upbringing. I I enjoyed life. I was a playful kid. I loved music. Um but secondary school, all boys school, went to Belle Moore in Southampton. And for the majority of it, it was a it was great times, but when you come in in your early years, and you've got the older the older boys in there, and they're like, "Yo, you got £2 on you?" No, I haven't got £2. They push you up against the wall. "You got £2 on you?" Like, and then it's not a case of like, if you've got the money, it's like, "Let me check in your pockets. Let me try and pull out the pockets of your jeans." So, as a lesser degree of the bullying, I was like I was experiencing it physically in the corridors. So, I kind of So, when I was starting to write that song, I was drawing from I had to go to how did it feel when that was happening? And it's only happening with one one one guy in in at one period in the school. So, I understood what bullying was. I mean, that was I was I was felt helpless. I couldn't He was 2 years older, stronger, could rough me up if he really wanted to. But then also, I was seeing other people who were getting the a real I was getting the psychological element, but there was a deeper side of that psychology of when they say, "Tell the teacher, they'll they'll deal with it." This is the thing with bullying, is that I agree with you that it needs to be spoken to someone you can confide in, but sometimes that kind of very rush in, told the teacher, they rush in, they it's all out in the open. I was seeing kids who would then have the kid waiting outside of school for them. Or it might be that they they're they're they're being bullied by for someone from a different school, even. So, they'd be coming out to the school gates thinking, "Okay, well, I'm on my way home." No, it's about to start when you get on the bus to go home. So, the whole world is now outside of school. You you've you've finished at 3:00 p.m., and and now it's it's beginning for you. So, it was I felt deeply that I needed to write on that. Um and like I said, my my mom and dad had their own things going on um in their lives. And and I spoke to my mom. I I wrote the song when I was in Southampton. I got like a a studio when I was down there, and I played it to her cuz I wanted her to also know that "Mom, you've always been supportive to me. Like, if if I needed to speak to you, if I needed to say things, but with bullying, there is an element where you want to say something to the closest person in your life, be it your family, so your your mother or your father. Um and I wanted to really portray that in the song properly, but I wanted to have that convo with my mom to let her know I knew that you would have always, if I needed to speak to you, would have been there, cuz I do say, "You've got your problems of your own, and I've tried to tell you so many times, you're not listening." And that is the case in a lot of the cases of bullying that even family aren't listening, so who do you turn to? So, um music has been that that song in particular, I think it was a journey. My grandma had passed away at the same time. Um it was a I just needed to get some stuff off my chest that I felt like this is past a romantic love song. I need to help people in in a way that wasn't trying to preach. It was just let me tell stories, anecdotes, and I do it through music, so. And you were bullied for your weight back then, as well, right? Yeah, the Well, the weight one was It's funny cuz like you like to tell the story differently when you're you're in a slightly different place and position. You'll you'll you'll tell it like, "No, you know, it was And I like I like everything about this as well. You The your podcast for me has always, and I wanted to tell you off the bat, what I love about you is that you're bringing out so much so much depth in people. And you you already know how much love I got for you, anyway. Appreciate The the being overweight thing, now I see it is actually, in hindsight, it actually it brought out so many thing wonderful things that had to kind of that had been repressed for a long period of time. But at the time, the social standard was you need to look a certain way. The the captain of the school football team tended to be the one that that the girls were interested in. You were the you were the slightly overweight one that they cry on your shoulder, tell you all your problems, have this real you have a real empathic relationship. You'd be like, "What, this is connection. This is real relationship," but we don't want to take any further than that. Well, I he's the one. Look at the way he scored the goal. Look at So, then you've already got this early imprint of what society expects of you, and then you start trying to conform to that. So, there were periods where I'd look in the in walking down the the high street, and I'd look in the in the in the glass, the reflection in the glass. And I'd just be looking like just feeling sorry for yourself, being like, "The jeans ain't fitting quite right, and the the jacket's not," and you're getting bigger sizes, and then you're just feeling like, "I'm doing all the fit I'm doing I I could run. I had some I had I had some legs on me, you know?" And And probably the boys at school would be like, "Bro, you weren't a you weren't a really fast runner. Which part do you run at?" But I'll tell the story. I'm on the mic now. Um I had So, I can move, but I was just carrying a lot of weight. Um but not unhealthy. I think there was a point at that when it became unhealthy was when I realized that my weight had I was like 15, and I I think my weight had was starting to get to I was 14, and my weight had got to 14 and 1/2 stone. So, I was starting to get over my age and weight. I was And I was like, "Maybe I need to slightly rein this in a little bit, health-wise." I ask these questions because and I always start with childhood on this podcast, and I I I've I've reflected on this over and over again, and thought, "Maybe I should start somewhere else," but I know from my own experiences that my own like childhood traumas, or the things that made me feel a bit invalid or insecure, or felt feel shame when I was younger, ended up being like the the biggest drivers in my life. So, when I sit here, I'm trying to find out why, you know, you got really into fitness, and why you became, you know, who who you became. I always start with like, "What were the things when you were a kid that made you feel shame, invalid, like you didn't fit in?" And And those tend to be the pathway to people's, you know, people's greatness in a weird way. 100%. Like, it it all your your you've got this this period where your heart's open. You want to you're experiencing life. You're a child Like you said, you're a child you're a puppy. You like you just you don't know, and then all of a sudden you get that, "Ooh, is that Oh, that Oh, I can't do that. Oh, that's the way to go." And then you're you're you're you're getting all that you're imprinting all these patterns that only later you start to realize in in your in your not even saying teenage years, I think it's still, you know, adolescent years at that point. But when maybe in your 20s, start to unpack things. Just if you if you're conscious, you're starting to recognize that this doesn't seem to line up with my truth. And then in your 30s, for me, it was like, "Whoa, I have to unpack all this stuff that was like the overweight thing, because you're exactly right that it started then. And listen, I could I could eat sweets like Cadbury's Boost bars were getting eaten like crazy. I'd go to the the the newsagents before I went to school to get on the bus. I'd be also selling chocolate as well. So, I had like a little Yeah, yeah, I was early days entrepreneur. Early days, yeah. You'd find the the the chocolate that was like had about 2 weeks left before it was out of date, and you'd I'd work that in my in my lessons. Like, listen, I knew I had like from 9:00 till 11:00 before there was a there was a tuck shop break. So, I could just set the tone as to how much I want to sell it for. Well, you want a a Mars bar for Yeah, it's a £1.50. Like, "Well, I don't want a £1.50." Okay, bro, then wait till 11:00 then. You can go to you can get it for 35p, whatever it is. Oh, bro, you you got a pound then. Okay, cool, a pound. I was The leverage was incredible. So, I always had a had affiliation, and one of my favorite movies is Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. So, I think that set the tone, anyway. I've got a bit of Augustus Gloop in me. I've got the I think we've got all the myriad of characters in that movie is me, and ultimately Charlie, like, you know what I mean? Um So, yeah, so it just I've I've been unpacking it a lot of those things, and realizing that my my health streak that I got went on at sort of in when I was in sort of Miami sort of time, and even slightly before that, was all to do with this childhood thing of I've got to the six-pack, the captain of the school football team. It's funny how like those things like you're like, "Whoa." And it wasn't even And then the crazy thing with it is that when I got into the music when I start Rewind start blowing up, it was people would just want to hear me sing. Yeah. It was like they didn't care if my stomach was here, there, six-pack, one-pack, two-pack. And by the way, everyone everyone has a six-pack underneath. So, just know that. Otherwise, your stomach's going to fall out. So, if that's just the saving grace for everyone. Don't worry about the fat content and the fat There's a six-pack underneath everyone. So, walk out in the street and feel confident with that. That's great. Let's not tell people that. Um you you talked in those lyrics, but then also then you talked about your parents. Mhm. And you said there was I I know again that's another dynamic because those are the for most people the most formative figures in their life. What was the relationship with your parents? And you said they had things going on that that were kind of it sounded like distracting them from the things that were going on in in your school life. Yeah, I mean my mom and dad broke up got divorced when I was eight. Um but the beautiful thing is that my that my my dad always would come pick me up on the weekends on a a Sunday and we'd either be going to like Potters Park like go-karting or I'd be helping him fix a kitchen which I've got I used to say to my dad like dad like what's coming to fix a kitchen like like we And like it was just I remember the the tools and the it was dry and dusty and I'm thinking but I loved those times with my dad. Yeah, he really made an effort and I drives in his car playing reggae music heavily influenced everything that I was going through. And for my mom it was like she was working 9:00 to 5:00. So, my grandma and my mother would pretty much raising me. My grandma would come pick me up from school when my mom was at work. So, I had a lot of feminine energy in my life which I'm really grateful for cuz it set the tone for how I wrote a lot of my songs. Even 7 Days. I mean, I'm saying making love at 17 years old writing a song. Who's saying making love on Wednesday? On Wednesday. I mean, you listen to the songs now if they're not using that kind of language. But it was that I got There's a respect I had for my for my for my mother, for my grandmother. And the fact that even my dad like I didn't want him cussing out on record like that. But just be like, "Yo, we need to speak about this." So, I just I felt I got a really good upbringing. But at the same time I didn't have a great model of family life at home. I got a lot of um feminine energy and female uh love, intention, and care, and all the things that you love from your mom and grandma. And then my dad was just like always had my back and I've got you. But I never I never seen them together. So, I think again looking at childhood um imprints and patterns is how they affect you later on. Relationship with with women was something I've always been really close to. But I also had never had a model of how do you how do you stay together? With like the the relationship part like I'm a romantic. But if you look at your relationships like they haven't really worked out too well or you've been guarded. And it's a journey of again of is this story true? It's got There's a point where you've got to be conscious enough to actually ask that question and it tends to knock on the door. And intuition's always there sort of saying, "We can have this convo if you want like we can I'll I'll present you with the books. I can present you with the click on the right podcast to go to. I'll get you to it we can unpack this. Someone will inspire you to do that." But there's also what I've seen now and I feel I feel very I feel open enough to be apologetic for relationships that I I just I didn't I my heart was closed off from the basis that not only from the family modeling, but also your first break heartbreak. So, for me it was like I my heart was so open and I had that first heartbreak and it just went from a kid who was had his heart open and thought this is it and you're into me and it's going to And then all of a sudden it just crashed and I was like, "Whoa." That feeling and I didn't I never felt anything like that before where it was like I didn't know who to turn to. It was like I felt that after after early childhood sweetheart breakup my my heart had kind of closed down and I and I feel sorry for the the the girls and and women in the last stages of my life have tried to open my heart up. And that's all they were trying to do. There's There's There's things that went a bit toxic and and went but I I have to own those situations. There's a lot of guys that like, "Yeah, well, she the the the girl was like this or she was crazy." No, no, no, no, forget all of that. I walked into that and I stepped in with a certain kind of energy and I gave off a certain feeling and especially if you're having sexual relationships, there's a there's a there's an energy exchange between two people and you can play it off as like, "No, but we had an unwritten agreement where it was like no strings attached." And you can play that game as much as you want. Get enough karma you'll start to see that there'll be some someone who will be your teacher at some point. And I thank every woman in my life that I've had relations with. I thank you for teaching me in some way. I want I want to go on record with that cuz I feel like it's something that I've always I now get it that I was moving a little bit reckless in the the early times with the music and everything going on. And there were there were people who were trying to get to my heart and I was just like, "No, I've got this thing. It's easier to keep it arms length." And it just doesn't work like that. So, two questions on that then. What was the evidence or the story that your parent your parents' relationship taught you or left you with Okay. for better for worse? And then that first heartbreak. What were the two stories those two incidents told you about relationships? So, having no modeling of what real relationship is, it it showed me early from from mom and dad as much as I love them with all of my heart that being single is the best way to get through life. Just stay single cuz I never saw my mother with another partner. I never really saw my dad with another partner. Um and I have sisters and brothers. I never I I but I I never of of my dad's other relationships that he had. Um and I love them equally. But it's just I never had any clear reason to say that relationship works. And then it reinforces so the story adds on later on in your life. You start to see how people are with each other who are in relationships and you get friends who are in relationships and they may be cheating on their partner or you're seeing how uh there's been scenarios where a girl says she's she's in a relationship. And thankfully it hasn't been the husband or anything. But there've been relationships. I'm not going to be the the guy saying I I've never met a girl who was in something. And they'll tell you a story that is I was breaking up we're not really in it. But you're you're starting it's reinforcing the same thing of well, stay single then. Yeah, yeah. Don't get involved in all this because you your heart will be protected and life is good and we can keep arms length. Then link that into the the first breakup first heartbreak. Heart was open. Gave everything relationship I'm all in. Like I'm going to As a child I was like, "Okay." It's hard to psychologically you don't really understand what's going on in your in your family, your parents. But you just at school now and you see a girl you're like, "Man, I'm falling I'm falling for you." and she's into you and it's all happening and it could have been I think it was only like about a week week and a half. Yeah. The break. It wasn't it was this we're talking early early days. But when your heart is fully open yeah. The crushing feeling I had after that set the tone for the rest of my life until now I've unpacked the whole thing which which all goes hand in hand with some of the songs I've written on albums before where I'm talking about breakups. There's a song called Thief in the Night which is about a girl who like what why did you have to end up being with my best friend? Like why did There's moments where I'm looking back thinking when I was writing that song what was I feeling? I was feeling the same heartbreak that I had at the same zero understanding of what relationship is. And then now I see it's all about relationship. It's all about opening your heart up again in the same feeling that I think we both share when you said that you had your moments of the trigger points in your life had to open up again. And you met someone who met you at a place to help you through that which is even better when you meet someone who's conscious and gets it and says, "I've got you. Baby steps if you need to. But I'm with you. Yeah." I'm at that place now where I'm like, "Can you keep your heart open?" My heart's open, man. It's open in a way that I'm I'm down if it if something tried to tried to close it down. I'm open as much as I was when I first had my heart open. And I I wouldn't have said that maybe in a few years back. The journey has kind of rapidly kind of entered into a phase where I just know that that's the the truth of the matter. And where are you relationship wise? Single at the moment which is again, you have especially as as as as a guy and I can only really kind of speak on my experiences and and we tend to our actions have to line up with the way that we're we're feeling. And and I felt that there was times when I was talking the good talk. But the way I'm the way I'm acting is different than what I was how I was acting before. So, then there's a part where you have to pull back the faders and be like, "Okay, well, this means that I can't enter into things where it's purely This had changed long to the 10 years ago for me. The the the objectifying of women that that thing there was something where I had to just check myself and be like, "What is this patterning that you have of of a look and how someone's got to be and and that's all part of the same thing that was happening as a as a kid." That it was it was very dreamy without the relationship. And now it's flipped. I I look for relationship in in in I want to have a situation where I can connect with you. Now, regardless of the look, if we're not going to a place where we can go there, we can laugh. Laugh is one of the biggest values of of any relationship. Someone makes me laugh cry uncontrollably, you've always got half of my heart already. Yeah. Because that's going to save you when the relationship has its ups and downs. So, the down is when you need someone who can bring that. Cuz trust me, the romantic phase as as we all know, that's intoxicating. Yeah, when you wake up after the hangover and it's real, you're still having the same feeling and love starts then. That hangover right then, that's when you're going to ask yourself, am I really in love? The romantic thing has just a bit of sweetness and Have you had long-term relationship? See, it would sound so short for so many people, but me it felt long. 2 and 1/2 years was probably my longest relationship and Same as me. And and even then, like I don't feel like I opened my heart. I I really felt that the girl was really trying to get me to to break down some walls and I I go on record that as as toxic as things can go with a little bit of time and separation, you look at it back at back and you say, thank you cuz you taught me so much about how I was moving and how I was going on and I'm a better man for that. Cuz now I can open up my heart like this cuz a lot of guys don't want to talk like that. They want to keep it cool. They don't want to talk like that. So. One of the other things talking about things that kind of invalidated us when we were younger or that we were aspiring to, I saw this quote and actually saw a picture of the estate you lived on and it's going to say, it's not the estate that I would wish to have lived on. I don't want to criticize, you know, an area, but it's not it it didn't look I saw a like a gray apartment apartment block and it it looked like a and council estate. It was a council estate, yeah. And you the quote you said was you were a kid looking out of your bedroom window at the estate car park and imagine having jacuzzis. Do you know what? I think to correct the quote even more, yeah, because the jacuzzi one like it's funny cuz I was talking about this only yesterday about like it when I was speaking about filming in and I was like, yeah, I was like jumping in the jacuzzi. I was thinking what jacuzzi was actually jumping in because the last time I checked you were in a two-bedroom flat with your mom, yeah. So, the only jacuzzi you were jumping in was your bath, yeah. So, that's let's put that on record. And you were in a 4 by 4, yeah? Okay, cool. So, which driving license did you have at that point cuz you were only like 15, 16 when you were writing this all? It was aspirations. Aspirations. But looking out of that window overlooking that car park what my grandmother brought to to the table in terms of like I mean, the love that my mom just from my family, I'm just really grateful for that upbringing. But my grandma, as grandmas do and I make sure you you get the right food in in you, make sure you wear the jacket, you know what I mean? Cuz it's going to get cold, it's going to rain later on and you're like, grandma. And then it rains, they just have this wisdom, yeah. She had a beautiful little garden in the house that she lived and it was like 5 minutes away from where I lived. And I was just like, that for me would was was enough as an inspiration to say if I could have a house with a garden in Southampton we're good here. I mean little did I know that how it would cascade from the music into yeah, just that that times 10 in terms of just like my eyes being open, but it was that inspiration from my grandma. And I looked at the car park and it was like hit me on my grind. I came on my grind. That council estate working class family growing up made me have to make ends meet where secondary school wasn't really setting me up for when I leave here. I was like I was already doing my market stall selling of chocolates at school, already had that going on. I was already doing mixtapes. So, that was my kind of go-to in the barbers selling mixtapes for 10 pounds that I'd be doing at home which would buy another piece of equipment that I'd get another speak another pair of speakers or another mini disc player to record on. Then I was getting a printer so I could print my own covers. Then I I was everything I kind of I'm doing now, weirdly enough it's no different than what I was doing when I was a kid. I literally had my whole whole little factory of making tunes, trying to have a little business going on so I can make ends meet in my own way without having to try and pull money from my mom cuz she already had her own things going on and she supported me beyond. Like I think she was going to deep into overdrafts just to make my my life feel comfortable. You got the Sega Mega Drive, right? It was Sonic the Hedgehog and those those games, yeah. So, brought back memories of that. Yeah, you got the but when I think back there was where where my money was get where my mom was getting this money from. Like she was deeply in debt. So, when you look back, you say, mom, the love I have for you. Like 9 to 5, I'm making me feel like I was getting everything that any other kid was getting. You know what I mean? But and my dad, you know what I mean? Like he he support he would he would never no one could cross me. No one no one could do anything bad to my dad have me. They'd have to cross my dad and that was the kind of and that protection is good to a certain degree, but then when you grow up dad's not there to do the things. So, how where's that part? So, you're coming to understand I've got so much feminine energy in me and that part, but I need the speaking your truth action now. So, it's the yang, my man. The yang. Yeah, the yang. So, you talk about music there and it one of the things that was really remarkable reading through your stories how early music came into your world and how early you started like selling mixtapes and I sat here with I sat here with many musicians and it tends tended a little bit later in life. Even Diplo sat here last week and Diplo it was I don't know, he was 25 or something before he really started going in music, but you were you were young. I know your dad had an influence in that because he was very into reggae. Yeah. And he was in a reggae band, right? Yes. But where did music show up in your life and then and how did that obsession kind of like take hold? Um I mean, it was Like I said when I earlier on I said like you you're a little high five when you come into the world. I feel that and you lose all the the cognitive understandings to what's going on and why we're here and then but there's something intuitively that's pulling you in certain directions and as a child you very much honor that. You just go in the direction. So, I was always intrigued by the little high five set up my mom had it in the flat with a big box of records and I'd just be flicking through them and I and there was a a vinyl in there. There was Ebony Rockers which is my dad's reggae group which more recently there's a mural now in Southampton they've put on on on Ogwell Road. Huge mural that that says about Ebony Rockers and I'm thinking, wow, so proud of my dad. I was like, yes, dad. Cuz you are a musician in your heart, bass guitar player the the the group were talking about social issues that were going on in the '70s, '80s and being able to put that on record and talk about injustices that were going on in their lives in Southampton and have it on record, but now you're getting recognized for that. Ah, man, like I just love love my dad for that. It's like I'm just so happy for him. So, I was looking at the records and I pulled out his record and I'd be like, Ebony Rockers and my mom would say, yeah, that's your dad's group. And I'd be like, my dad's like early though. I'm talking like 5, 6 years old looking like, my dad's in a group. So, I know that's definitely there's some lineage there. There's there's DNA that's come through musically. My mom was always into Stevie Wonder and Michael Jackson. Uh my first ever 7-in I ever bought was it was Human Nature. Oh, really? With Michael Jackson? Yeah, cuz it it was on a 7-in. It was in a It was a small little box next to the the 12-in. Um it was the first one I bought. That's one let me tell you right. It was the first one I bought, first song I ever bought. So, that's why and the I mean, look at the lyric of the song. It couldn't be any more perfect as a as a song of like being conscious and understanding the world. So, yeah, so I got I had a and there was there was the bit of Donny Osmond in there cuz my mom was a big fan of the Osmonds which was a big group back in the day. Um mixed with the Stevies and the Michaels and and and then also have my dad's reggae, deep reggae from Beres Hammond to Sanchez uh Terror Fabulous, Buju Banton, Beenie Man, Bounty, like early. Like I'm a sound man at heart. I think when I'm in the studio, people are like you literally are Buju Banton, but no one's actually say like hearing you do this, yeah. Because I go into this reggae Kilimanjaro, David Rodigan, uh Black Cat Sound System in me. So, when I hear See Carnival, I'm just like it's me sitting up with rice up with a little bit of rice and chicken, a little Budweiser by speaker and I'm good. So, yeah, man, that music started off early and then I just I just felt like it I just was gravitating towards it, too. When was the first time you made music in any kind of context? Um first time I made music was my dad got me a a hi-fi system called Studio 100. For anyone who knows that, it was like a big box, like huge like box with loads of faders on the front. He came home one day like he just came to the house and said, Greg, I got you this Studio 100. I was like, woo, what am I supposed to do with this? I have no idea. So, so it had loads of faders, loads of microphones with different colored foam capsules on the top. It looked the the business with a with a a record deck on top. Two twin cassette decks and lots of switches that I didn't understand what was going on. But I was excited cuz I was like, wow, this is the first time I might be able to record something. So, I was just fully invested and when you're a kid, you learn all the fix, you know all the So, I started to record. I would have said I was 11, 11, 12 years old when that came through and I you'd put a TDK cassette tape um there was a D90 which was like the basic one or you if you were feeling kind of saucy with it, you'd have like a chrome or or a metal. They were 2.49 those ones, but if you went for the normal D90, it was like a little 69p one. I put I'd buy two of them. You'd record into one tape. So, I'd put the first lead line of something. And a lot of my early songs were just sounding like I was literally just lifting the vocals from every other song that I was listening to. I I didn't quite get the memo of oh, we have to change the melody that much for it to not be sounding like I'm singing Jodeci Freakin' You or Boyz II Men. Why does it sound like you literally just changed like the the road to street on end of the road? You have to do a bit more than that which I kind of you will learn quickly if you don't get the memo, yeah. Um but yeah, so I started to bounce the the vocals down. So, you sing onto one cassette, you put that in the bottom that tape cassette, you then put in fresh one in the top and you let that play and you record on top. So, you were dubbing on top of your vocal. The quality was diminishing every time you did that, yeah, cuz this is old school stuff. But, I was starting to finish a song. I was feeling very very proud of myself that I could actually write a song. How old? I would have been like Yeah, like 11 12 years old. 11 12 years old. But, yeah, that kind of led into a world very nourished with R&B, reggae, but also the the pop soul element. Terence Trent D'Arby was the first show I ever went to at the Guildhall in Southampton. It blew my mind. I saw this guy. I was front row. I saw him like he was moving like Prince with Marvin Gaye. He had the voice of like a Stevie Wonder with Michael Jackson. The hardline according to album was like it was like 7 8 million albums. It was a huge record for him with the the breakout song Sign Your Name Across My Heart. Again, look at the the the the messages. Sign Your Name Across My Heart, yeah. I'm like finally, we're getting the message now. I need to let someone sign it fully. You know what I mean? And capitals hold that. But, changed my life. I was like if I can I'd love to do what that guy does. From 11 12 when you're messing around with those cassettes to I think when I I've heard you kind of kind of recount that your first break was winning that songwriting contest with Damage, wasn't it? Yes. Was that what you consider that to be your first kind of like break opportunity? You know what? It is like it gave me a it gave me the first taste of reinforcing that I could actually do this. Like it I thought it was a bright break. Like I was going to we've done it here. Yeah, yeah. I've written the song. I'm ready. It's on the back of it's on the B-side of Wonderful Tonight. They are a Clapton cover which was the lead single. I'm telling everyone in it went to number two in the charts. I'm telling all my friends it's because of obviously my song I'm ready, not the classic Wonderful Tonight that they've covered, right? Um but, I thought it was off the back of that. And I actually sang vocals on that. I did BVs on the song. They let me come up to London, met the guys. I was just like wow, this is like a dream come true. But, I didn't off the back of it it was like okay, it was in the shops for a few weeks. But, nothing. It went quiet after that. How old were you when you won that songwriting competition for the boy band Damage? I would have said I was 14. Around that 14 15. You start messing around with music at about 11-ish, you said, right? And then at 14 you win the songwriting competition for the boy band Damage. Um and that's what like three years of just continuing to mess mess around and develop and practice and just play around with music, right? Between that time. Yeah. It was it was And again, the support of my mom and dad in in in ways that now I'm just like so thankful for bringing that studio 100 piece of equipment that for me to record. Yeah, my first record deck. All all these things now I was the kid looking through the music store like oh, I wish I could have that. Wish I had that one if I could get that one equalizer. It would I could mix it. I was just that I'm nerdy with it. And they would always somehow have a 10 pound and a 20 pound ready for me to help me out. And I had my my chocolate thing going on as well. It's something really interesting about you saying nerdy with it because the guests that I've sat here with specifically the musicians, it always seems to be the case that when they were younger or just before, you know, maybe in the 10 years before they blew up or whatever, they were just like really nerdy with music. There wasn't really an intention of being the greatest or getting the number one albums. They were just like obsessed. Even Wretch 32 when he sat here it was the same thing. He was just clearly just nerdy with it. Very very young age. And I think that's that's really important to point out because the pathway to getting to where you got to in your life isn't that doesn't appear to be or at least the starting point doesn't appear to be this obsession with becoming a superstar. It's this kind of nerdy fascination cuz you spent three years between 11 and 14 just messing around with cassettes on some piece of hardware that your dad bought you. Yeah, of course. It's it's it it did feel that my obsession with music like when I when I look back and it's it's different now cuz I have the same I have the the same kid in me that wants to do the same thing that I may have done in those periods of time especially when I start collecting vinyl. Like I knew every producer. I knew where the snare was on this track was taken from a Changing Faces song over there. And this record over here used the kick drum from there. The bass is used I was in it. Like I had everything in alphabetical order with the plastic sleeves that they all went in. Room was getting to the point where I couldn't fit in my room for records. So, I was really living it to the point where I'd swap shop with records. I'd be like like other DJs would say, I I got to London get records, bring them back. Those days DJs were the go-to. Like it wasn't like you go on New Music Friday and you get 1,000 songs to kind of to to look through. It was like if a DJ played in the club, you would go and speak to the DJ find out where he got it from because he's got his 10 copies maybe and this is a promo that's not going to come out for six months. Like literally songs were like you had time cuz it was physical. Where are you going to go? You can't copy this unless you've got a lathe and you're going to start to print acetates in your house. So, you have to wait. So, I'd when you went out to London especially cuz this was like the hub for where everything was being made and printed up. I'd come back sometimes from to Southampton with some record. DJs are like where you get that great? Where you get that? I said, yeah, you know, I'll swap you a Faith Evans I Just Can't and a Jade for the tune that you got. And I said, maybe give me a little 10 pound extra for that. You could you could it was all vibes, man. I just it was such a fun time cuz things were slower. And I love it now, but it's just there's a lot to get into. There's a lot of music being released just to to keep up with the flex of it. I had a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast. My girlfriend came upstairs yesterday when I was having a shower and she said to me that she tried the Huel protein shake which lives on my fridge over there and she said it's amazing. 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Between 14 and 18 then, what happens then for you? I'd gone from the the songwriting competition a moment where it was like okay, this is the this is the this is the thing, but then it carried on where okay, this wasn't necessarily the big breakthrough. Heavily into the into collecting records. I started to DJ early on. I was MC at first for another DJ called DJ Flash who I respect so much because he brought a lot into my life to to be able to be a chaperone for me really. He knew my dad. And he was 10 years older than me. And I had that at 14 I looked a lot older as well. So, I I could kind of get I could style it to get into clubs with him. And he'd let me be his MC. So, I'd be called MC Fade and I was just like, you know what I mean? The fade was Chris and I just thought that was the it's crazy. And then he'd give me like a he'd give me a little slot to to play maybe a little 15 minutes at the end of his DJ set. So, in Southampton he was playing most of the kind of big clubs there. And he introduced me to the Cajun Zoo in Bournemouth. We'd do a couple shows in in Portsmouth. So, I was like his I was his MC and also his box boy as well cuz trust me the back was getting like smashed picking up those heavy boxes, yeah. It's different when you're wearing the chain with the MP3 on it. It's different when you're picking up those boxes, right? Your your squat game's got to be really on point. Your glutes are going to be you'll be fired up. But, I'd always do this thing with him where I'd be like, fresh I think I think actually that girl you were I would just try and find like a girl he had his eyes on. He'd be watching all through the night. I'd be like, I think she she keeps looking at you, man. You need to go. You need to go and speak to her. He goes, yeah, but I was don't worry. I got you. I'll let me you go and speak to her, man, cuz she's going to go and it's all going to Okay, cool. Handle the fort. I'll handle the fort. Yeah, you're right. So, I'd play like a little half an hour thing, yeah. He's skirting around. Should I go and speak to her? Should I and he's just standing next to her. He goes over for the for the move. She blows him out completely cuz you were never looking at him at all for the whole thing, right? I've got a 30 minute DJ set and then he's come back like, great. So, she didn't even I goes, I don't know. She was looking at you all the time. I'm not sure. You got to find your ways, yeah. But, I learn from between that 14 to to to really to 16 was a period of DJing intensely. Then I started to go off and do my own DJing sets with MC Alister who's part of the Artful Dodger. He goes and does MC sets now. And then it was kind of it was moving. I was at college. I'd gone from secondary school. Now I was at college at City College. I was doing an NVQ level two in electronics. It was like the closest thing I could get to music because there wasn't like production courses like they do now which would have been great. Back then it was like how do you forge a trumpet out of metal and how was how do you make a guitar from scratch with wood? And I'm like, you know, I just want to know how Timbaland makes that or Rodney Jenkins makes the the the vocal sound so good. Can someone show me that? And there wasn't a course. So, I thought let me do electronics because at least that gets me closer to circuit boards which the sounds was around the corner. Had some wicked equipment in there. I thought even if I got a a job working in would be great. I'd be near decks. I'd near twin tape cassette decks, and maybe I'll get a little discount. So, that was my road I was going down DJing, MCing there. Never thought it would necessarily mean meeting Mark Hill and Pete Devereux from the Artful Dodger, which is where it it really then transcended. Tell me about that. So, in one club, it was called Old Orientals, um 10 minutes around the corner from where I I was living with my mom. Um was DJing downstairs uh R&B hip-hop set. Upstairs was house and garage night. Um Mark Hill and Pete Devereux, who are the original Artful Dodger, were playing upstairs. Now, this is the early doors for garage music. So, you're hearing like It's a London thing was playing. Um Scott Garcia, which was like a classic garage thing from them days, and it's even like the the Lessons in Love was coming through Robbie Craig, and there were just tunes coming through and playing. And then I would go pop my head up and be like, it wasn't packed up there, but I was like This is This is a vibe. It's got like It's like They're layering R&B stuff now. It felt over this skippy I don't know what you call it. It's I know what two-step was. It was like it was a speed garage. It was just some weird like some eclectic thing that's not house, but it feels UK. And then all of a sudden we got into conversation. I was talking about all these songs that I've been recording at home where I didn't have a producer or someone who could create the music for me. Um I was using instrumentals and stuff to just sing over like you hear a freestyle. And then literally that that I mean, this is where it's so divine that the serendipity of it was so beautiful. Mark Hill, who ended up producing the whole of Born to Do It album, said, "I've been looking for someone who writes songs. Like I I do music. Like I've got the music thing locked down, but I need someone who who writes songs who can sing." And I was like, "Oh, this is a perfect marriage." And he says, "I've got a studio. It's like 5 minutes from here at a place called Ocean Village." And I was like, you can't even make this up. Like it's it was the club like my my flat, the the the Old Orientals place that we met, the studio, it was literally within a 10-minute walk. It was like all perfectly planned. And then from that, the next thing I did was record a song called uh What You're Gonna Do, which was the first release from Artful Dodger. And I remember it being printed up on a on vinyl. They did their own thing, boxed it all up. I felt sweet. When you're on a vinyl, I felt I'd made it at that point. I'm on vinyl, yeah. And they got up in a van, and they took it up to London. They go into the record stores, and they say, "Look, we've got them to take two boxes here at this record store." And uh So, in Derby Street in Soho records there, in Brixton we've got some I was like, And something started to build, my man. Like I can't I was like just happy to be on a record, but then all of a sudden I was getting people saying who they'd be coming back down from London saying, "I'm hearing your tune getting played on pirate radio stations, you know." I'm like, "What?" I'm hearing like it's going off. Drop the funk, drop the bass, hit it. And I'm like, "What? Are you And they're like, but then random people saying, "Oh, well, I I was coming up from London. It's getting It's getting played. Like I went to a a club. It went off. The DJ span it like four times back to back." Something was bubbling. And next thing you know, I got a call from Public Demand, who were the label that were that had got invested in that in that record. They'd done a licensing deal for that song. They said, "Do you want to come up to London and start doing some some PAs, some some performances for the song?" And so, I'd love to. So, I called up my mate Clinton in his yellow Fiesta. Remember clearly. Got the Jamaican flag in the back, yeah? Just like he had it proudly there. Yeah, he had like the the sub speaker in the boot going crazy. Everything was tuned up like he was coming going to Notting Hill Carnival, yeah? The sound system was way more than the car, right? Sounded crisp. So, I up there, I'd slip him like 50 pound to to get me up there, get me back. And literally, I go up. I was getting like two 250, 300 pound for a for a PA, which was good money. I'm like, "Wow, this is real money now. From selling chocolates to this kind of money, I can buy this record. I can buy that." And I go to the Coliseum um in Vauxhall, um the end, um and I started to Twice as Nice was the the big big name at the time. And I'd go out there singing What You're Gonna Do. And I'd go on stage, and I was this young 15-year-old kid. I was like 16 at the time. Walked out. And I they the DJ even more like any DJ could play cuz the the Artful Dodger, we had this sort of agreement that if Artful Dodger were with me performing, we're doing a set together, we'd split half the amount for the for the for the fee. And if I was going off doing a performance, then I would just take the money. And if they did a a DJ set somewhere, they'd take it. So, we just had a nice little agreement going on. So, I go up there, and the DJ would you say, "You ready? You ready?" I go, "Yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready." And he'd be like, "Drop the funk, drop the bass, hit it." And that's for the first time walking out seeing it go off. I was just like, "This is mad." And before I even got to sing, the guy they're spinning it up, and everyone's going, "Bo bo bo bo bo ooh." Which is where led to Bo Selecta, with Rewind. Why I was saying that in the song. It's like, "Bo bo bo Selecta." That was the phrase as a cultural reference for that music. And I think that that's where it kind of just it it just it just was exponential after that. It just went from What You're Gonna Do, then Rewind was starting to go do its thing. And people were just losing their minds to that song. Like I remember my first personal from PA of that song, I wasn't sure if the crowd was feeling it because it goes into this this baseline in the chorus, which is very it feels like a halftime R&B record. It's like So, it's like dum de dum. So, it's like re rewind. When I cross over, Bo Selecta, re rewind. You just got the baseline dum de dum. It's halftime. You could just be slow jam. De de de de de de de dum. And people And I saw people literally they were standing like And it wasn't like we're not feeling it, but it's like we don't know what to do here. Yeah. Like cuz the the verse is making moves, yeah, on a dance floor. You got the garage thing. It's cool. And then it goes dum de dum. Shh. De de de de And and people like And then when it And that was his USP in the end. Mhm. People were like, "Is there that tune that does that halftime I don't know what baseline thing, but it goes slowed?" And it set the tone for the whole thing. That song there right there, still is like my baby. Cuz I felt it when I walked home with my Sony Walkman with my headphones on on my jacks going and just like walking back like just listening to it thinking, "I don't need There's certain songs where I don't need any feedback. I don't need anyone to tell me what they think about it, how they feel. I know in my soul this here is the one." And it wasn't the one from it's gonna go off in the club. It's just gonna go off when I go back to my flat. I had a huge sub speaker that was probably bigger than me, yeah, that I had in the corner, bigger than most of my room. I had to squeeze my bed out almost to get it in. When I press play on that, and it came through that speaker, I was like, this I know I'm good. I got the the full uh feeling that I needed. So, from then I was like, if this is the same for anyone else, and they feel like this, then it's gonna clear. And it ended up being a clear. And that is a a timeless timeless record. I mean, I listened to it before you came in here. So, I was listening to it, and I was like, [ __ ] it. This could have come out last week. You know what I mean? It feels like that. Do you see what I mean? Like I played it, and I was like, this could be This would be a hit now. Do you know what I mean? So, appreciate you. You know what I mean, though? 100. Yeah. It's that It's that It's a It's a It was a cultural record. It was It feels very timeless. Like I did a show the other day or even yes- last night, and I drop it in, and the millennials are going crazy for it. The day ones are there going like It's just like it's It's one of those ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. what I mean? So, So, that leads you up to the to the point where you start to release your first solo single. Mhm. Fill me in. Yeah. Talk to me about that and that whole process, because that went straight to number one. Mhm. Um From what you've said, I know it changed your life, right? From going doing these PAs in clubs to doing I think you did Wembley three nights in a row or something crazy crazy in a in the space of a couple of months as well. Yeah. It I mean, it went like from like zero to 100. Literally. That's why I was kind of like Behind the scenes, funny enough, even though I say zero to 100, there was a lot of learning curve that I was learning. So, doing doing the DJing, doing performances in front of a a club a club PA, or even before that when I was doing my DJing stuff as an MC, when the the vinyl's skipping, and the crowd are looking at you like, "Yo, what And you've got to improvise quickly." So, man's going into some kind of MC like Some of them ain't Some of them are laughing. Some of them are holding the mic. I hope they're trying to find another piece of vinyl to put on cuz this one's gonna keep skipping. My hope is hope is when I arrive bo bo bo like this, jump around and what I do this crazy and everyone's just like, "Whoa." Like and then I get it to mix somehow perfectly, yeah? And I'm sweating, yeah, cuz I'm thinking I nearly mashed the whole thing up. And after people come up saying, "Craig, that was sick when you did that thing. How did you do that? Why are you sweating so much?" It's It's not even hot in here. The air conditioning is blasting. I was like, if only you knew. But it it teed me up for performances going forward. So, when we got to Fill Me In, I I can just remember something happening when I was doing There was a a club called Sound, I think it was, on Leicester Square. And at this time now, Rewind had been released. It had gone to number two. People didn't really know who I was. They knew the name, which was You know what I mean? Like you can get See, that was always the the using the name was always like a like a tag DJ tag thing. Like you put your name DJ Khaled would do it. It'd be like I'd be like, "Craig David all over you." So, you knew who was on the record just in case you you were confused, yeah? And then that then became sort of my intrinsic trademark thing that I did throughout that Born to Do It album. Um so, it'd just be like, "Craig David, it's another one." Like all that all that kind of stuff. Um But yeah, I remember doing this a performance I I'd had an interview in in Capital FM, and I had to get across Leicester Square to go and do this performance of it in Sound, which Capital were doing like radio performances from there. I knew something had really changed when the security There was a security guard, and he had to put me up. I went there with them just being calm. I went into Capital to do the interview. The security guard had to put me up on his shoulders to get me across Leicester Square to sound because there were fans going crazy. Like real I could for for a moment in that period of time the the Justin Bieber thing the even before the Drake's I mean it's like it was that fever pitch pitch where it was just like Woah, BTS flex. It was like madness like pandemonium. I just like ripping pulling like it was woah I was thinking something's changed. And I went and did the performance and then Fill Me In was was was building up to be my first number one. And it was my first solo single that went to number one and I and it was it was a song that was released the same day as as Destiny's Child Say My Name. So to have a number one in the charts with a group that I'd grown up with posters on my wall and I thinking this is crazy. Say My Name Say My Name is one of my favorite R&B songs of all time. So just for Fill Me In to do what it did I knew something had changed. I I just knew well it was quite obvious. And I was on this wave. It was euphoric. There was nothing I can I can put my finger on. It was like it was it was everything but more. It went from everything I touched was turning to gold cuz is everyone wanted a piece of me and I was doing acoustic performances which was to give a different feel for for Fill Me In which I think was a really clever uh move from at the at the time my my record label um was was half owned uh by my my now manager uh Colin Lester. Uh Telstar and Capital were involved. And it it was just like we wanted to find ways that it just didn't exclude me from other radio stations and make it feel like it wasn't just this this radio thing. So we did performances like on on uh TFI Fridays and on uh Jools Holland which were acoustic. And all of a sudden I went from the rise in garage UK garage uh to wow there's there's actually a song here. He's writing songs. And then the next songs I think kind of reinforced that it wasn't just just garage. And then from 7 Days and then to get to Walking Away because at Walking Away it gone clear at that point. Really had gone clear like we were I was in France in the every other week in Paris doing radio interviews and I'd been in doing a whole of Scandinavia then I'd be in Germany then we'd be getting a flight over to America and it just started the whole How old were you through this period? So you start I mean Fill Me In was when you were 18? Yeah so yeah so we were with the album dropped the same year. So 2001 was when I went over to the States. So I would have been like 19 like How does how does an 18 19-year-old deal with that? Cuz you know with all the attention comes a lot of negative stuff. It's like unavoidable it comes with the territory. Even with the like the the fame and people clamoring on you and stuff. It it changes your psychology takes a shift or you find out who you really are right? They say that a lot like you find out what your demons are right? Cuz now you got the money you got the power you got this admiration so talk to me about like the the other side of that that meteoric rise. I'd say channeling of how I or tuning into how I was at that time I I say the it was euphoric. There was the I was like woah everything's new you're doing new places and going to the best restaurants and your eyes are wide open you're on a plane to this country and I went I was at the House of Blues in in in America doing we had three nights there and the first night and I and I tell this because it kind of just to give context to how bizarre it was. So remember I've come from your flash I think I got like you over there let me do a little mix for you over here get a little half an hour in a set. Jump fast forward a few years later House of Blues three nights in a row first night Missy Elliott is has come to to watch the show. I'm looking up thinking this is crazy like Woah. I can't stand the rain and then just Missy Elliott just this this whole next night I'm there I look up in the same balcony Jennifer Lopez is there. I'm like wow. And I know it sounds like I'm name dropping but I wanted to be to give context I'm it just is this facts yeah. The the the following night So I how am I missing this? It was it was Missy and Beyoncé. [ __ ] off. Then it was Jennifer Lopez. Then on the last night I look out into the crowd and there's a lot of kind of attention on one in particular gentleman that's in the crowd who's singing and I couldn't quite work out cuz the lights were too too dark. So I got the the front house to turn the lights up. And I look in the crowd and I'm singing Walking Away and I look over and I see Stevie Wonder You're joking. Walking Away and I'm just like I mean what do you say at that point? I would I would felt emotional. I felt cuz it was Stevie Wonder from the record collection from my my mom's stuff. Beyoncé I've got Destiny's Child on my wall. I had Jennifer Lopez on my wall. Missy Elliott I'd even listening to before I come out. It was just like you can't make this up. It was almost like yes you you're behind the scenes and bam here it is. And then I got to meet him at the end and he'd come with Quincy Jones who we all know as the producer of all of the huge hits from Michael Jackson. And then Quincy said you know like NJ you know what it is he said it even more like like coded. He was like um he was like M he said it was like M's got your album like it's just like vibing. I said who's M? Yeah you know MJ Michael. He's got like he's got the album he loves Born to Do It. He's been listening to gave it to his friends. I was like I was just stop this. If we can if this is if this is the thing we've arrived we're good I've got my fix there's not much more I could ask for. But it was literally the start of an incredible roller coaster ride which let let the later years I think which we get into it it harks back to that and I can I can see where the the cracks were starting because when to ask your question about the other side of it it was so euphoric and I was so swept up on it. It was like getting on a surfboard and actually being on the wave and you're you're doing I don't know the I never use this word but like the most gnarly-est like you're the gnarly wave it's gnarly. You know what I mean? You're the the the there's a rip rip curl and it's going crazy you're through the middle the eye of it you're on it. You're not coming off. But then there was a point when the next album Slicker Than Your Average dropped which was only like a year or so later 2002 had great success with What's Your Flavor and and the the songs were hitting but there was this Born to Do It had now done 7 million albums. Six times plat platinum. Oh. Six times platinum. It's it's it's still still crazy. And then when you said about the Wembley Arena three times sold out. I'm standing outside the the sign I've got it at my mom's house like there's a picture of I'm like you just can't make it up. It's it was so beautiful and I'm so grateful for those times. But I started to see from the Slicker Than Your Average time where the record label would already start to quote uh I was going to do 10 11 million obviously Slicker Than Your Average cuz now the trajectory is going to be has to go higher than this. So then when the album ended up coming out it ended up it selling 3.5 million albums. And 3.5 million albums. Yeah at the time I remember that there was this feeling in the company of Mhm right only 3.5. And I'm I'm I'm impressionable I'm a young kid I don't know I've just got into this the the music business and you're telling me that that's not a good thing cuz the last time I checked the feeling I'm getting is I just want 3.5 million albums. Give 3.5 million to any artist now like we're good. We're we're you're So I'd already started to buy into there was some it was there was a trajectory the trajectory was starting to go in a different place that that I wouldn't even know about figures. I didn't really care about the album sales. I was just like I'm just happy to be here and I'm making music and I'm doing what I love my dream. But that was the first learning curve of the the defining of defining of product and defining of you being a commodity that has to achieve something now that you've set it up here whereas I thought it got fun when you start to do it. I thought it got more playful. No no it got more serious and there's more cooks in the kitchen and everyone's got an opinion of the song you should be releasing. Expectation. beyond Expectation the curse of all happiness and joy and You must know this. You're just trying to equate what your self-worth through so many other people's expectation of you like you said. So you I'm trying to say okay cool well we're here I'm a songwriter. I'd always I'd always had a really great rapport with my manager Colin Lester who's been with me like for I've got I love the conversations that we've we've had over the years and and him even saying in early doors that I can't guarantee you success. I but I'll do everything in my power to to protect you and keep you safe so you can do your thing. And having those kind of confidence in in in in the people that you're working with is is is paramount when you do start to get these the feedback trickling through cuz I never was like oh yeah what are today's midweeks? I wasn't really too interested in like finding out all the stats because what happens is and today and you can get this now and I say this to any aspiring artist who's putting music out now and you're having success is literally just enjoy it fully be immersed in it because if you start to check for what's going on next week your moment when you're supposed to have the number one and you're enjoying life you're already going to be able to see by Tuesday Wednesday that your numbers already showing that you're already number three now. You've slipped off and they're number one. So your moment of glory was actually there was the curve and at the point where you got the thing which is the beautiful metal number one or you're already not you're already kind of on the decline. So it's that I had to ride that for a few more albums if I'm being honest to I was making songs and they were connecting but if it was a number four in the charts, it wasn't number one like it was before. I haven't got the same amount of time that I had to to make those songs. I've got I haven't got enough life really. All this those first albums there is seminal because it's all your life up until that point, right? And then after that, the expectation is we need it on a deadline and we need it this time and you've got hit this in the mix of the fact you're doing a hundred interviews and you're doing you're flying all over the place but still you've got to conjure up that thing. I don't know any artists that that that won't feel that and hats off and kudos to anyone who is able to sustain that but as a human being I know that's a tall order for anyone to be able to to continuously do and you start to see with any of the artists who we put in from from the Amy Winehouses to the Michael Jacksons to the Whitney Houstons the height of success when it is like woah like otherworldly. There's so much of the the human part that's being unmet that it it gets to the point where breaking point and then something happens be it's it's drug addiction or if it it it it moves into mental health issues and depression which are all so real that no human can vibrate at that level for that amount of time and and I I'm thankful for those moments that kind of shaved off a little bit of the it being all go go go because I think that it kind of made me have to go back to a lot of things that were like when my grandmother passed away which is on the next album story goes. I was back in my heart again. It's like I'm writing a song like Johnny about bullying or I'm talking about let her go a song I wrote from about my grandmother to my mom to say look I know it's it's crushing you lost your mom and I've lost my grandma who's pretty much raised me. Here's a song and I want you to hear it and those things it start to get back in my heart. Cuz we can get heady and when it starts to get heady you're out of you're not in sync with this. This is the real brains and I've learned that now. It's not it's not This is a is a loyal servant to the heart but if you go from here and then that the you can find the the ways to get to A to B but it has to start from here, you know. I had a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast. As we all know energy independence and living a little greener has never been more important for a better future. It's a it's a journey I've been on over the last couple of years that I've shared with you sporadically ever since I sold my Range Rover Sport and bought an electric bicycle and there's a lot of people out there that listen to this podcast that are looking to make that sustainable switch in the things that run their daily life whether it's their home, their car, their vehicles, whatever it might be. So when a good friend of mine at a company called Myenergi called Jordan told me she was interested in sponsoring this podcast, I jumped at the opportunity. So for those of you that don't know, Myenergi are a UK renewable energy brand whose mission is to increase the usage of green energy helping people like you and I to save time and money when it comes to making sustainable switches in our lives. So if this resonates with you and you're the type of person that's been looking or thinking about going on your own sustainability journey, I highly recommend checking them out at myenergi.com. And you described that journey as a as a roller coaster. Mhm. So what at what point did did that roller coaster start heading down from that um you place you describe as euphoria to a place where you um weren't euphoric? Talk to talk to me about the the down part of the roller coaster. I'd say when I released uh the Trust Me album in 2009 um it it just felt there was from where I'd started off with very cultural records like Rewind and Fill Me In which is why we talked earlier how these songs you can play now and they still seem to hit. When I when I look at 2009 and the Trust Me album I I felt like I was starting to make music that was to please please people and to tick boxes. It was like I was There's a song called Top of the Hill which is a lovely song. Um I love the song but if you listen to that song to how it started off, it was very far removed. The type of music was becoming very live and it wasn't as wasn't as synth-based and then so which I'd drawn all my inspirations from as as a kid. And that's not to say that you can't experiment but I knew at that point I was entering into a new space and then by the time I released that album which I was proud of I'm always proud of the music I put out but it wasn't connecting as well. Signed Sealed Delivered was uh an album that I did just after that which was I was out of a a deal at the time um just because I'd run the tenure of my my my deal. Um so it was kind of a fresh start. I could look at different record labels. Universal were were excited so we did a deal with Universal then I was put out this album called Signed Sealed Delivered which was an a covers album. And I was singing like Dock of the Bay and the title song Signed Sealed Delivered from Stevie. But verbatim like the originals. It wasn't some chopped and screwed. It wasn't an R&B version. It wasn't a garage thing. It wasn't like your It was like the same song. The same song and I felt like it was time that I needed to just sort of check myself and just be like are you getting the fun out of this like you used to? Do you want to continue making music like this? And thankfully the the the the world always the universe always sort of mirrors everything that you're going through so it mirrors your state of play where you are. So I always felt that I was if the feeling I was getting was being mirrored back I'm not quite feeling this. So the world says cool, I'll give you more of you're not quite feeling this in your circumstances that happen around you. Whereas when I was the kid growing up making the first album, I was feeling everything. I was feeling the song on the way home from the studio. I was feeling it on my sub speaker at home. I was feeling those rides up in the car to do the performance. It was feeling. Mhm. And now I check in with that deeply because I know that anytime I'm not feeling it act from that not from the head saying well I know Seal had a big covers album at the time. I think that was a good reference point. He had a huge covers album was doing serious numbers and that was the sentiment that Universal were were presenting like do a covers record. No brainer you can sing these songs. Motown going to be good. It's a soul thing and then off springboard off the back of that with your own album. That was the the play. It was never really worked out that way cuz it it didn't really work out that as an album. It didn't hit the way it did and there was no next album that came from off the back of that. There was a period of time where I was like I was out of the scene for a second. And what and what did you do then? This is when you moved to Miami? So I was in Yeah. So I was in I was in Miami from 2010. So it was like about a year after that album. And I was there for about five, six years. For the first two, three years the best time probably of my life being out there. And anything and everything that you could possibly think of Miami being and what it was representing. But the latter period of that period that time was where something was ringing inside of me of you're in the wrong place. And this is what intuition is. Very quiet. And it and it's it's it's it it it it creeps up and it's just and that it's that not even nagging. It's like you hear it and you just don't want to hear it. I want to it's it's so it all looks great over here. You know what I mean? It looks so it looks so aesthetically pleasing from the You know what I mean? Like the car and the the apartment and the parties and the women and that just it's like the parties that were just like every day of the week something going on. Music isn't really getting recorded now because the voice is is just destroyed from like shouting in a club and doing the nonsense. So music's getting pushed to the side. All these fancy toys and the vibe's starting to become more important. You know what I mean? It's like that uh my balance of of actual supply and demand of music that got me there was way off. I was literally creating hardly anything. Is there shades of like you you going up on this trajectory when you were like a younger man 18, 19, etc. and then going into this place where you almost abandoned your like your essence and your roots and then you that kind of culminates in you making this covers album which is almost it's quite it's almost a bit of a metaphor because then you were really being someone else like being doing cover albums is by definition you're covering other people's music in their own style. And then almost this um this period in Miami where you get into partying is kind of seems like a bit of a distraction maybe or whatever trying to explore trying to get some other pleasure from another type of life. Yeah. And then kind of going back to your your roots in a way where you all of that you'd tasted the [ __ ] Yes. You'd had the Don Perignon. You know you and you and that wasn't it. So now you go back and ask yourself what is it? What is it? And and then it seems like with TS5 you you created a new kind of expression of who Craig David is Yes. and maybe who you had lost sight of over the years because of all these temptations and your own success. Isn't that the truth? It's when you start to realize that actually going back to the things that and it's all back in childhood. This is the thing. When I when I tune in it's like the decks and the DJ and the mixtapes. That was all I was trying to do when I was doing the TS5 house party. I just wanted to feel that again like I'm mixing now with my little Pioneer DJ set up and I'm on the microphone being the host with the mostest and I just want everyone to feel that feeling that I got into the whole thing for and If someone doesn't know what TS5 is, can you explain just give it an overview of what exactly what it is? Yeah, so TS5 is like um it's when I the performance now from the house party that it was um is I'm able to cuz I used to DJ when I first started off as we spoken about before and I was at that point then DJ Fade. So I I learned all my skills on on using vinyl and Technics 1210s. The TS5 set is the name came from the the apartment in Miami and it's a show where I'm able to DJ and mix other people's records as much as drop my ones in and I will come out to come out of my my DJ booth and sing and do a performance in a way for me that is it is giving me all the feels I got from when I was a DJ but also I can do the performances and drop some gems in there at the same time. Like I can play a TLC No Scrubs or I can play Say My Name and then go into Fill Me In. I just love it and taking that to a pool party as I did in Ibiza I think I was trying to set the tone of like this isn't a DJ set where I can get away with playing some songs, doing a few shots of tequila with my mates and get paid for it and go home. I just can't. Like I get that can work in certain and I have no judgment. It's do your thing. But for me as a performer mixing the tunes is like it's so easy now like with vinyl it was like I was that was a mission but like now. So I can mix the tunes that's nothing but to come out of the booth, perform, do an MC thing and hit the marker back inside to get to the next song that for me I I pride myself on and it's given me a whole new lease of life for for festivals. So that's really what TS5 is. And it's become a phenomenal brand phenomenal brand for for for music partying and it's it's funny because it's such an it's it's quite rare that you have someone that has that kind of skill stack that all of all those different pieces that can do that. I think that's probably why it's been such a such a hit is because you rarely see someone who can drop their own records, who can sing, who can perform but then who can also DJ. It's like a really interesting new thing. Totally. I I felt I felt it in that got a little touch of it in the party when I was in in my house parties. I mean and I didn't even start to put See this is it's beautiful when you look back at the puzzle pieces when the picture starts to become a little bit more clearer as you put okay that puzzle that piece there meant you needed that piece to happen for this one to happen. So when I was performing in my house I wasn't actually performing any of my own songs at all. Cuz I just felt like I don't want to start dropping my own songs in the middle of the thing. And then I have people come over and be like bro drop that Fill Me In. Drop Rewind. One girl came over said drop 7 Days and I was like nah. She goes please it's my favorite song and I was like and then I looked I was like maybe I might do a verse just one one little piece of the verse. And it started me the idea of of putting a couple of my songs in. And then we started to record the set I started to record the set and put it on SoundCloud so people could listen to it after cuz people were like oh where can I get I'd love to listen to it back to that set. Or we did sing happy birthday to someone and it was a moment that they wanted to hear again no one caught it and I was like well let me capture this now. And that was actually where it flipped back into mixtape land that I then got my manager took it into Kiss. Kiss originally were like we can air this put it out as a as a show and then it went on to Capital Capital aired it as well on Capital Xtra. So all of a sudden it was like it's gone from a house party to a thing. And then we did a couple of early shows one uh two shows in Hackney to see if this house party would translate into an actual thing. And when I saw people it going off in the same way I thought wow this isn't just a Miami thing you know it's not just in my house it's actually people connecting with it. And since then I guess Glastonbury was probably the the one of the pinnacle of it because you're there in the front of a crowd who are there for a myriad of different artists and you're there performing a band set and then go into a DJ set and it's to see it going off I was like this is my people from Miami who were early doors when we first did that party which was like nine of us just there messing about having a couple of shots with playing off iTunes. To Glastonbury. To Glastonbury that was like it was crazy. So it just it's always there the piece is always there but time sometimes you just need to time and patience in this. It's so interesting looking at your story as as like an outsider and watching that journey of you being this like huge mega star then the the the downside of the roller coaster as you describe it and then watching you over the last like five six seven eight years come back out with as almost like this completely new character but with a proposition that's as resonant as what you used to do a very very different proposition. But you like again from my like not really paying attention to what's going on in the world because I'm not really that into pop culture. You know I used to listen to my Walkman and then there was a gap and then you're back in again where everyone's talking about Craig David again but for a completely different proposition but it appears to be a completely different proposition. That's not common or easy. The the question I actually have for you is because it's a roller coaster your mind goes on the roller coaster as well and this kind of brings me into to the the topic of mental health. Yeah. Be honest with me. What was the the mental health journey throughout that whole period of time? Do you know where I sit in for a long period of time I I guess that those um those words of of of man up or or you you just just just just just just just just just roll with it. Just roll with it. Just man up. Is the most amount of nonsense that I've ever heard cuz it's that in of itself is what's it's what's caused the crazy suicide rates that we see especially in in men and the way in which it's spiraling out of control cuz it's like keep it inside, repress it, put it under the carpet, don't talk about it. That's what we do. That alpha way and thankfully and this is goes back to my parents my grandma and my my my mom in particular it was all about open and conversation and then and speaking and have have open conversation and be able to get it out and have a convo. And I think that there was periods where I just I ride rode through it and I think Miami was kind of just was a was a break from a lot of things and me being out there and being in a different climate different culture enjoying those things but that still wasn't fulfilling what I was really looking for. What I really wanted was connection and relationship in a way that I experienced almost in those kind of early doors before the first album and at the when it hit. So the roller coaster ride is you find character in your lows. 100% you you ask the questions the real questions do you really want to do this? Are you really about this? And I am a musician through and through. Um and I love it but the the the depression is real. Mental health in the in the in the multitude and myriad of different ways that that can come about is real and it's the and it's something that you can only half the battle I've always I've spoken about that you it's it's talking to it's being able to express that to someone you can confide in and even if it's not someone you can confide it in a phone line that you can pick up and just speak to someone you don't know. Maybe in some ways that it can be even better you can just go I've got it off my chest and they're giving you they're hearing you they see you. But that's only half the battle the rest is then a journey of they call it in more spiritual circles dark night of the soul of going through into a place where you're going to uncover everything that was put under that carpet having to bring it to the light and having to bring it up and work through it to find a place where do you pull the carpet up and all the dust goes up everywhere and then you start to see where it lands you start to say okay this was a story that I was telling myself the things I was defining myself of my self worth through how I looked and the approval of others this is authority figures feeling like they had something over me the power I had when I was the entrepreneur selling chocolates and and making the songs that's really you who I've always been but I had the abandon you used that earlier abandon yourself. When that starts to happen it can spiral out of control and I had injuries and and physical injuries through all the training and stuff that I did as well that spiraled me into different depths of depression where I was just like wow I've never experienced this. When things happen that you've never they they cumulatively build up but then there's something that breaks it that snaps it and at that point it just feels like wow and you're trying to you're in free fall. That's the feeling I feel with depression. I've experienced that I know how it is and I haven't really been as vocal I guess as as today about like that and I feel it's necessary because it's I don't want to be the one who's telling the story. I want to be so authentic and I want to open up like you said you spoke about things that you needed to get off your chest and let people know the other side of all this because in that is where all the the beauty and empathy really is and people connect and they say oh what So you went through that. Ah so it isn't this thing that only me and all of a sudden we're all connected and I'm thinking yes. And then I'm I'm inspired by people who kind of wear the heart on their sleeves now. So I feel like it was a combination of a lot of those things building up to being in the wrong place being away from my family missing being able to just make music in the way I did coming back to the UK and then as soon as I did that and I felt I felt my first huge hug when I walked in and saw Big Narstie Corrupter Fam uh Mr. Jam uh Stormzy was in the building Shola Ama and I did a this this one extra performance which was really I was going to rock up and vibe Fill Me In. And I ended up singing it over Where Are You Now the the Justin Bieber Diplo Skrillex instrumental. There was this moment of love I felt. Big Narstie gave me a hug first when I came in wearing his heart on his sleeve boo you man is my tune. Oh my god Craig. Boo you man is my song. And I'm like wow. Like really wearing his heart on his sleeve. And then sing this song sing Fill Me In as a remix vibe over this instrumental and it went so viral that I'm looking on my phone and I'm seeing Justin Bieber like saying like wow that's amazing that you need to check it 45 minutes into the show. Then I'm seeing Skrillex on the on my timeline. I'm seeing Diplo on the timeline. I'm just thinking something's happened But it was more than just it needed me to play my part and get back home and get and go through that Miami phase of what that was all about. I I I I I find it really interesting that that's the first So, is was that the that Miami phase the first phase in your life where you encountered what you believe to be like depressive symptoms, where you fell fell fell into a depression? In the in the latter stages. Of Miami? Yeah, cuz I got I got injured out there. My my back went like in like in my lower back. And I never felt a pain like that in my life. Like I felt aches and pains of of training incidents and different things. I've had like Anyone who's had like a a blowout in the back. But this one in particular was just like it was a feeling that just wouldn't give up. So, I was my movement patterns was went from, you know, you're 100% you're doing the last kind of leg leg press and and it's all these it's deadlifts. And I've got respect for deadlift. Amazing move. But when you're if your back goes on one of those, I promise you will there's a feeling that you have which is like when your hands in like 240 volts in the wall that it's just it's different. It like it's it's a nerve pain which is not like an ache or like or it feels a bit sore like you got DOMS from doing too many kind of like So, when it went, I was like I never felt anything quite like this. And it made me have to check myself in a whole different way for the fact that every movement I did felt like I was getting that same spasm. So, it wasn't just like one spasm. It wasn't like, "Okay, we've locked up. We're good." At that point you know where you're at. I've had those before. We we all had I think in our lives we have a sporadic moment where you have a thing. This was now it's happening now it's happening now it's happening now like it it was continuous nerve spasm. I was like it was a spiral for me. It was it was a point where I had dark thoughts. I was just like, "I can't live my life like this." So, I understood really at that point the first time depression hit me and I couldn't reframe it as being positive. I couldn't say this is put a positive spin on it. There was nothing. So, I had the mental thing. Mhm. So, I was getting I kind of signed up for a for a good uh for to to be someone who you have to experience certain things to be able to speak on it. And I get that now. So, it's like, "Okay, well if you come here to to to on mission to do this, you're going to have to feel pain physically, you're going to have to feel heartbreak, you're going to have to feel anxiety and abandonment of of of your body. You're you're going to have to feel all these things." And then I hope that you get to a point where you get the memo, which I've now fully understood the memo. I don't need to be doing deadlifts and I don't need to be training like the way I trained before. I can stay healthy. And more importantly, what people enjoyed from me was music that it never had changed and I realized that from when I came back to London. It was like people just want to hear music and they were cool. They were just happy and this version of me and I love all the other versions cuz they all played a part. This isn't a judgment thing like, "Oh yeah, well that We always tend to be like, yeah, an album comes out you're like, yeah, it's no good. You know, this is the one." No, they all played a part to me sitting here today with you and being able to break down things and unpack things and as a as a man now to be open enough to say I know what depression feels like. I speak differently on things now and the more I can open up and speak on the pain that I felt. And that back thing ran for years. It was like a couple years three three years I was like And even to I mean even to this day I put my hands up. I'm still working out like, do you know what I mean? We do we do surgery? Do we not? Do we like I'm it's it's dialed down incredibly. But it was a defining moment. It's pivotal to me and it just was like, "Whoa." And like I said, depression you'll have dark thoughts. Dark thoughts. You'll have you'll start having thoughts that you're like if this pain can continuously goes on like this then I I can't It it sounds crazy for me even saying this cuz I'm like you've always been the nicest guy and you're so positive and you like, "How could it" But I was like, "I just can't live like that. I can't live like this." So, you start not think about ways that you would say I'm lose I'm take your life or to to dip out. But it's you start having thoughts of something has to happen. Like this this pain is intolerable. Like I can't even style it out. Like there's nothing for it. And I think that that when it started to dial down and we've done it from injections and all different kind of things conservatively and strengthening the the the multifidus and the paraspinals and the glutes. I know my body so well now. It got me back into my body. More importantly, I started to understand the mechanics of how my body works. And every listen to things. You know, you get a little ache and a pain or you get a little thing. Tell tell sign that's 10 years ago you got a blowout and then it blows out again and you didn't listen. You keep going. All it does it just amps up the sound till you get the one You got the memo now? Okay, cool. Now you got the memo. That's how the universe works. So, I'm really in tune with my body. When it starts telling me stuff, I'm like, "I need to check for this early." Because I don't want that five-year thing and the thing's going to let me know the hard way. All right, man. It's dialed down. Thank God. But all part of the plan. Because it's put me in a place where I can physically go out there and do my shows like I love. I can go out there and perform like I love. I don't need to be putting the extra work in in a gym to to satisfy anything that's I can go swimming. I can move my body. And I and I can The things I can dial it up and we can get whatever we're we're looking for. But who is it for? It's not for anyone anymore. I don't need that. But you are back. You're back in the UK now? Back in the UK. Back in the UK. Um and you said this you said this quote. You said, "To a lot of people I'm at my destination. I've arrived. I'm back. But no, I'm still on my journey. Mhm. And I'm not taking my foot off the gas." Now that that phrase foot on the gas Mhm. right? It kind of sounds it has hints of a former Craig. Yeah, when you even said foot off the gas yeah. I I don't know what day I was saying that or what I was feeling it. Yeah. Even when you said it to me then, I knew exactly as you were going to say like, "What's this foot on the gas thing?" Cuz that would suggest that you're headstrong, running to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I I I get the sentiment but then also the the phrase the terminology is a little bit It's it's troubling, right? Yeah, yeah. It's like we're not take the foot off the gas. Just relax. Then then save it for the for the save your petrol. Just just calm yourself. yeah. Stay Sometimes staying still weirdly enough is actually the one. I recognize when I stay still and the world moves. It's like, "Wow." Pandemic. Yeah. That I've got to say had for for everything in the in the the pain it caused and people who lost their lives and families that were suffering so deeply and still are. Um when you look at just how it was a pause on the whole world and it just had people recognizing that when they had to relinquish control cuz it got to a point where I can't control this. So, okay, break open the Monopoly board. Let's let's let's have a game then. All of a sudden back into kid back into the child again. The child was seen. Play started to happen. And as much as like we we we all like to say that we need to be the thing of doing doing doing. But sometimes doing nothing Don't don't don't think that the world isn't working for you behind the scenes here when you're doing nothing like having a good night's sleep, resting. Trust me, for all the working out in the gym and all those kind of things, the rest was the actual thing where all the growth happened. So, why would that be no different for the way that we are when Let me let me sleep on this. Let me slow down. And man, it's it's a blessing to see someone as inspired and conscious as you putting it out there and allowing people like myself to come through, speak our truth, have people have a platform to speak and feel open and not feel like they're boxed in having to kind of Got to do me the training here. I have to be like that. Open out. Because that's what we need. We've done that. The old patriarchal system is crashing down. It's not working anymore. No one wants the divide and conquer and fight. This ain't going to work. We want love. We want a heart-based relationship. So, That failed us, right? We tried that and it failed us. It failed it failed deeply, man. Yeah. It really did. And as we look forward, you've got this album coming out which I'm really excited about called 22. Mhm. And it's coming out on the 24th of June this year. Talk to me, you know, throughout this it's been 22 years as well since you your first First album was it? first album. So, 22 years later your your album 22 comes out. What can I expect from this? What what is the inspiration? What is the the art, the creativity, the pain? What is the What is What is it? Okay, so we know Born to Do It was was the most my baby. It broke out everything for me. It was the moment where everything I built up until that point. It was me getting the the golden ticket. Let's say it's the golden ticket. We're entering into the the chocolate factory now. Excited. But not the ending, right? Then I had to go through life a little and now I'm landing at this place in my life where and during the pandemic gave me a lot of time to write a lot of songs. I got a studio at home. So, I just I was writing a lot of songs and I had no rush. It felt like how I was when I made my first album. If I wanted to do a verse today, cool. If not, I'm going to go downstairs to the kitchen and maybe I'll throw on a movie and maybe I'll come back up. I was grateful that I had that and privileged to be able to do that and to to make home a as productive as I wanted it to be or as relaxed as I wanted it to be. It feels like it has all the It has all the feels. It feels like it has all the feels of my first album Born to Do It. I feel like the kid again. And I keep using the word feel because I think that's the most important. That's my that's the only thing I can really gauge thing. How am I feeling? I've got big sub speaker in my in my new in my in my home in in in in London. Again? Same thing. Literally, I got to I literally just patterned the same thing with a couple of blue lights to make it look just look a little bit like I was a 2.0 version of the same, but same big speaker. I can play it loud. I've had people come over and I've said, "You You need to understand what bass is, like really." Cuz they think they know what bass is. They got a little the Sonos system and it's all cool, they've got a little couple subs. No, no, no, no, no. Listen to this and you get that and it's it's different. So, I feel like I've got the R&B on there. I've got the the garage on there. I've got songs that I feel that we've a beautiful journey of where I'm at now. I feel I'm speaking on things that is coming from a place where I can still have the lingo and the languaging that doesn't set you off as being like, "Oh, you you were like in the 2000s and you're where no one says that anymore. No one's saying tipsy in the in the club anymore. No one's even really saying getting wavy anymore. That was like a bit a couple years back. You know what I mean? What's the new So, working with young artists, working with young fresh songwriters, they'll give me languaging that allows me to get my messaging across, but in a way that it can get the most broadest kind of reach. I just feel like we've Yeah, like I don't want to gas it because it feels like there we are. It does that, right? Yeah, it's just it feels really true to where I'm at right now and I've got I listen to it and I'm excited to listen back to this album and as I have done since really the following my intuition album. Since I came back, 2016 did that one, Time Is Now and this one. But this one feels like with that I'm a journey man. That's the the cover album cover is me on a journey and I feel like that journey man of just 22 years in now. And as I said to the Willy Wonka element, I feel like Charlie who's now going through the test. He got a little caught up, which if you clock it, it was his grandpa who kind of got him to take that fizzy fizzy lifting drink and he started to go up into the thing. It wasn't really Charlie. He was calm. He was actually being the good one of course. It was his granddad that kind of got him, right? To get to the end where the Everlasting Gobstopper where he has a choice to sell himself out, go sell it for 50,000 pounds I think to the the competitor chocolate maker of Slugworth or does he go back and put it back on Willy Wonka's desk and do the right thing knowing he's going away with nothing? I feel like I'm at that place where I'm in I'm creating an album and I'm willing to I'm willing to trade in all of the things that I up until this point this pretense that I maybe I had behind the scene that people didn't really know. There's always getting 80% of me, but there was a 20% and that's enough or 10% of me that's not is enough. It's like the the princess and the pea. Trust me, it's underneath there and it will keep getting you. It's like the thorn in the foot. It's like it doesn't have to be big. It's not some big drama, but it's getting you, right? I want to pull the thorn out. I want to find the pea, all right? I want to I want to say I want to sleep on my night in my mattress where I'm not feeling slightly uncomfortable cuz I know there's something underneath there. There's there's a needle in a haystack and I don't want I know it's in there. You know, we've got to find it. I'm at that stage where I'm dropping this album that I feel I've put the Everlasting Gobstopper back and I have no idea if Willy Wonka's going to turn around and say, "Charlie, you did it. I knew you would do it. I had to test you. I had to test you." It's like, "What? What? The chocolate? No, more than the chocolate." "What is it?" "You got the whole chocolate factory. You got the whole chocolate factory and his family can move in and everyone can be part of it." And that's how I'm feeling now. Everyone can be part of this. This is This is different now. So, I'm excited, man. I'm excited. And you know what? I'm I'm I was excited before, but hearing your description of it and feeling your energy about where this is coming from and it's coming from that place of like your intuition, your wisdom and your maturity and over those 22 years all of that unbelievable twisting journey that you've been on to create a record now um which income like which sort of collects all of that wisdom and all of that emotion and truth and pain and experience is is really something to be um excited about as a as a Craig David fan. So, thank you for for giving us another project. I've not heard it yet. They wouldn't they wouldn't let me hear it, but I but I can't I'll listen Do you know what? On the real like not just the cuz I always feel like these these moments have always more than like you've done you've done your your moment together, but I just feel there's a friendship building here anyway. So, I'll we'll we'll hook up and I'll I'll play the album. We'll get some food and we'll vibe. So, it's calm. You'll be well ahead of the game. No, do you know from the minute you walked in the door I felt like I'd known you a long time and that's a credit to you cuz I meet a lot of people here, right? So, sometimes people come in and maybe they're a little bit colder and like that, you know, there's a lot of things going on in their lives which I'm unaware of. So, I've got to have empathy for that, but the minute you walked in through the door it was like you were my brother and it was like we'd known each other for a long time and that's that's honestly it's a credit to you. So, look, thank you. Thank you so much for your time. We have a closing tradition on this podcast which is the previous guest writes and the next guest a question. So, I'm going and I don't get to see what it is until I open the book. Nice. Nice. So, the previous and this is a very good one in fact, very fitting. The previous guest wrote, "If you could whisper in the ear of your 14-year-old self, what would you whisper?" That's good. That's good. That's good. Listen, Craig. I know this might freak you out cuz you're hearing a voice in your ear right now, but trust me, I'm I'm a I'm a little older version of you and everything you're about to do right now is going to change your life in the most beautiful way and I want you just to enjoy every moment and know that there will be times that will be quite hard, but know that I'm here. Know that I'm always there holding your hand along the way and I promise you that once you get through them, the feeling you will have will be like the euphoria you are just about to experience in a couple years time. So, get ready and trust me, the crowd are going to go off when they hear something soon, okay? Love to you, my man. All right. It was like a prayer. Thank you so much, Craig. Good to see you. My pleasure. Thanks. Honestly, it's a huge honor and your vulnerability and openness you don't know. You won't ever get to see the impact it has. I probably will. I'll get the comments and the messages and you will as well, but the the impact of you being being self-aware enough and and man enough to be vulnerable I think is is really something which I I applaud you for because you just don't really you know, the impact you're going to have on a lot of young men specifically is is profound and yeah, long-lasting. So, thank you, brother. Thank you. It's mutual, man. Very genuine. Appreciate Thank you.