Zines Panel on OHIO Esports Twitch

[music] You are live. >> Hello everybody. Welcome to All About Zen, our panel today. My name is Lincoln. I am a librarian at Alden Library. Uh let's do a quick round of introductions before we dive into the topic for today. Victor, do you want to start us off? >> Yeah. Hello. My name is Victory. I'm a uh digital archives assistant in uh the library. >> Hi, I am Miriam. I'm also a librarian in Alden Library. >> Oh, so many mics. Hi, I'm Cassidy. I uh teach photography and integrated media. So, I'm a professor over in OA. >> Awesome. Thank you all so much for joining me today. Thank you for everyone online. Uh what are Zen? So, the Zen librarians, which is a community of professionals who are working in this space, define a Zen as a self-published work with a limited print run. But what does that actually mean? Any um how do you understand Zenes? >> Personally, I kind of explain Z to people kind of like a magazine but with uh no ads in it. Um because I think that's a big part of like Zen culture is like the DIY culture of it. And also the fact that like in a world that is uh currently being like or that's constantly like advertisements are being thrown in your face, zi are kind of a a fight against that that culture I think. >> Yeah. I was just going to add I sometimes feel like it's easier to describe z as what they're not right. So zi are um typically inherently like anti-corporation um anti um just sort of like big business in general. They're from the people. They're like not a diary also because they're published um yeah so they're they're sort of like in between all of these things. But the DIY aspect I think is the most important part and that it limits how much we see it. >> Yeah. Yeah, I would also really emphasize the DIY aspect of it. Um, and the fact that they're meant to be like very affordable, very accessible in a lot of ways. Um, but are often um, at least originally historically um, when they started out were like directed um, or targeted towards specific communities. So fan zes might be a word that people have heard. Um, and that was a really common um way that they started with sort of people writing z um aimed at TV shows that they loved or bands that they loved um things like that. Um and so they were they were very like community oriented and I would say that they still very much are. Um but they're not they're not formally published also. So, it can be DIY literally can mean, you know, stapling a few sheets of paper together and photocopying it and handing it out amongst your friends. And another thing that I really love about like the DIY part of it is I think um especially the way that Zes have evolved and now they can kind of be anything is you can make anything into a Zen now. I've seen Zen made out of trash. I've seen Zen made out of like playing cards. So, like it's really cool to see um how uh just different zenes have become. >> Yeah, I really appreciate having such expertise from y'all because I could not define a zen uh if you if you force me to. I really agree that this um my interest in zenes I think mostly comes from this kind of like DIY and for me it's especially the physical quality of zenes. There are uh digital z as well and that's a super cool world. Um especially today that's often how zenes are shared. uh even if they're physical, they might be sold through social media. That's how I first encountered scenes. But what really sparked my interest was that physicality, this ephemeral sense of uh you know, what dorm room was this printed in? Uh that kind of thing. I recently just got a Zen uh from an Instagram account that I found at random and uh all of the pages are in the wrong order. And for, you know, if I bought a book at Barnes & Noble and found all the pages in the wrong order, I might be kind of frustrated. I might try to return it. For a Zen, that's awesome. It's amazing. This is a unique one-of-a-kind thing. Uh, and that's what kind of makes Zen special to me. How did y'all first uh encounter Zen and what really sparks your sparks your passion for them? >> For me personally, I got really into um punk culture when I was younger. Got really into like '8s, '90s punk culture and um learned about Zen from that. Um I then started collecting them and making my own. Um, but I really like I don't know, but I think I I really like my my love for Zen went up when um I started reading more about uh punk culture in college and actually interacting with other people who made Zen and getting to like trade them and that kind of thing was when I think I really realized I was like, "Oh, this is so different than like reading a book or than like anything else I've experienced. Um, I've been trying to remember when I first encountered Zenes and I'm not actually 100% sure. Um, I would say it was more of a peripheral kind of knowledge um until I got here um and became involved in starting to collect them. Um, which started um around the pandemic, maybe just a little bit before um and um it was a project in collaboration with the art librarian at the time. Um, and those of you who are seeing the slideshow, um, behind us, um, that is images of examples from Zen that are in, um, Alden Library Zen collection. Um, there's about 500 in total. Um, and so I've learned a ton about them as I've been helping to develop this collection specifically. Um, and I've been, you know, just fascinated by the variety, which again you you can see just in the images behind. Um and um really impressed really interested in the history um because it is so sort of um counterculture um against the grain. Um it's really they've always been a way for people to share stories that are not part of the mainstream or share opinions um share experiences. Um and that's really important. Um, and that's partly, maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, um, but why we're collecting them is because all those stories and experiences are just as important to preserve as as any other. >> Um, I was thinking about this as well, I'm pretty sure the first time I even heard about a was when I was about to make one in a photography class when I was in undergrad. um and my professor, we had gone on this really wonderful photo trip um and were making work in response to that and wanted to make some sort of collaborative piece that kind of honored that experience for us. So, it was like working as a group together and he had mentioned Z and I never heard of that before. But what was really exciting is it gave agency very very quickly, right? Like I can decide what I'm saying and how to um put it together with other people. Um, sometimes Zenes are individually based, but I find that there's so many that are really collaborative, which is exciting. Um, and I also find it's a way of like, especially as a photographer or an artist, getting your work out there without having to have permission or resources or access that can be really really difficult for a lot of people to have. Um, so yeah, I you were talking about uh I don't know, we were talking before this about how it's sort of strange to have Zm and were like online right now at the same time, but I see this echoed in photography as well, this like desire to touch to hold something. And actually, every time I bring my students to the library, and I apologize, we wrecked the third floor because we're so excited pulling books down. Um it's uh it's this idea of like looking and touching and this slowing down and going through pages and that sort of tactility. I think especially postco especially with the rise of AI people want that more and more. I think that's why my students are gravitating again towards film photography and why we see a rise in that. I think that's why zes are I think kind of getting noticed again or like recontextualized and popularized. um and that just because we're not moving at this pace doesn't mean it's not research or not relevant. And so I'm really excited about this desire for analog and touch again. So >> yeah, you made so many really great points, but I think that that last one um is is part of um what's so important to me. Of course, I work in special collections. Um, and so everything that we do is really hands-on. Um, and we see how important that is to students. Um, and it's interesting, you know, as I said, we started the collection around the pandemic, and I think Zes, there was sort of a big influx around the pandemic, and suddenly everybody was making digital zenes because that was how you could, you know, share them between people. And I feel like that's really when Zen started to go digital. Um, and and a little bit more mainstream as well, I think. Um, and a lot of them that are digital online, often the digital version will be free. um you know available to anyone who wants to download it which is part of that like um accessibility this like unfiltered sharing of information um that community aspect that I think is um is so important um and also to your point about like you know people students wanting to engage with the hands-on um there's a zen making workshop happening you know as we speak also in the library um and there's a lot of people there um you know which is sort of testament to what you're saying. >> Yeah, I'm kind of laughing because um [laughter] I realized we're in like the esport I don't know if baseball >> arena I think >> arena um and there's all these screens but I was saying actually I think we're getting really burnt out on screens. I was listening to a podcast about um it's called ologies. I don't know maybe it's the opthalmology. It was this one's you know that it's so good. It's one of my favorite podcast. Um but they were talking about eyes and how like we aren't like we're um basically losing quality of eyesight that we used to have because we're not looking far away often enough. Um, and so I think just we're all burnt out and really tired and there seems like more and more and more and screens are part of the speed. And there's something about um not just the looking and touching but also the physical rest for the eye to look at a piece of paper and artwork on a piece of paper and not on an endless scroll or um >> yeah it's so but it's kind of funny to say in this room where everything's like LED. [laughter] >> Yeah. No, that's really interesting. thing. I didn't think about that so much, but I started collecting zenes during quarantine. And um that was definitely like a need for tactility and a need for connection with other people. And I think um kind of back to what I said earlier of like a big uh part of scene culture I feel like is um so much corporation is being thrown in our face when we're online and it's like everything there are ads on everything now and it drives me crazy. Um, but I think that um, Zen can also be a a push back against that because it's like you're just getting pure art and nothing else. And I think that's really cool about it. >> It's so interesting for me to hear just how many different themes come up around Zenes. And that's one thing that I think is really exciting is that it's almost this tiny little vin diagram, you know, overlap between all of these different interesting um, communities and subcultures and and trends in society. I kind of backed into Z originally. Um I have a pretty vivid memory. I was still I think I was just out of high school and there was an art store uh that I visited that was selling old uh magazines for $1 each. Uh and so I started collecting these magazines. Um and I just got really into the idea of kind of collecting this this print material and I discovered that Zes were this this massive world and I kind of started to dive in. The thing that really made it connect for me uh was that I started collecting graffiti zenes. And the thing that was so cool to me was that uh with a couple exceptions, but basically everything every piece of graffiti documented in a zen I own no longer exists in the you know quote unquote real world. They um for you know they've been covered up or they've been uh uh the elements have have taken them away or what have you. Um, so for me it really uh connected to this this feeling like you're saying about that wanting something tangible that connects you to maybe a bigger community, maybe to the bigger world around you. Um, and the way that that interacts with this kind of growth of the digital space is, I think, really interesting. I always think about zenes as kind of the the double-edged sword of the growth of social media, growth of um digital media that uh I, for instance, have a zen of a friend's uh vacation photos. If I saw this photos on Instagram, I'd give them a like. I would not remember, I would not be talking with them right now. But because I have a physical zen that maybe I can pass down to if I ever have, you know, kids or or, you know, I could trade it with friends, uh it means something to me in a in a totally different way. Um, we've talked about collecting a little bit but maybe in different contexts. So, uh, I'm a personal collector. I haven't, uh, bought Zen in an institutional context, but the Mont Center, the archives here on campus, uh, is collecting Zen in an academic research environment. Uh, so I'm curious maybe how do y'all think about collecting uh, when it comes to Zen? Are the things that you really um, excite you? and and maybe how do you think about what it means to put a zen on a shelf uh in maybe an archive or in your own home? >> Let you take this first. >> Um okay, so I'll speak from the institutional collecting standpoint. Um but I wanted to respond to so many things that you said, but I'll um circle back. Um, so what we're seeking to do is just create um a collection that has a lot of variety. Um, and that's partially because of the way zenes tend to be used in our library um, which is by classes like Cassid's um, and students like Victory who are um, doing research projects um, but also are looking for inspiration um, to create their own zenes. Um, and I don't recall if with your last class if it was like a class zene, which is sometimes what happens where all the students um collaborate on a single zen. Yeah. Okay. And then sometimes it's um each student in the class making their own zen. And so I want to have like a really broad variety of things that will inspire students because everybody is um you know inspired by different mediums. And so one of the things I think Victory that you said previously that I wanted to come back to is um you know a zen can be all illustration, it can be all photography, it can be all poetry, it can be all scribbles, it can be all text like there's no parameters. Um would thinking about defining a zen um you know it's the DIY aspect. It's the you also talked about um you know buying old magazines. Um so like reusing and recycling um and using what's available um is a part of it also. Um so the yeah so the way that they're used and the way that we collect um is to inspire um as well as to inform. And so the other piece of that is trying to collect this kind of alludes back to what I said previously. Um we want a lot of stories represented. We want a lot of different people's experiences. Um people's thinking about or struggling with their identity or with um other aspects of their physical bodies um or with their personal family history or with some really painful topics like abuse um self harm. Like these are all topics that um it can feel very safe to explore your own experience or feelings or fears or struggles um in a medium where like you said you don't you know you don't have to be approved or accepted by a publisher or on the other hand of that you know rejected um for your own personal story. Um and so there's none of that there's none of those barriers. Um and so we really want to have a broad spectrum of those stories in the collection. That's really cool because I think a lot of like Zen collecting for me was about trying to attain knowledge that I couldn't find other places. Um, a lot of it for me when I started collecting personally was like I wanted to find more things out about the trans experience that was further than what I found online or more intimate than what I found online. And uh, Zes were like a really big education tool for me for doing that. So, I think having a variety is like so important because it tells as you said all sorts of stories and um it's important to tell all sorts of stories and I think going through the collection at the Mon Center has really like helped me like I don't know like just like see how many more stories there are than even I think about in a day-to-day life. Even as someone who um studies history and like um prides myself on like um doing community organizing stuff, I feel like I still am learning so much from just looking at uh the Zenes in the Mon Center because I see life experiences I haven't even thought about before there. So that's really cool. >> Yeah. um something actually that both of you were talking about but I was thinking about collection um also related to like who like archiving but who owns that archive and what's the purpose and like the history of Z technically if you go like way way back um oh god this is really bad that I don't know these names as a professor um the who was Luther who like put the things on the door with the nail >> uh Martin Luther >> Martin Luther some actually say like That was the first scene because it's this like paper that went up on the wall and then I think the first American scene was pain the common sense >> pain. Um so >> but that one actually really was more Zen form but they didn't really really take off until um we get into the industrial revolution and it's really sci-fi that starts to kick it off but sci-fi like 1920s30s which is kind of amazing to think about also like almost exactly 100 years ago. Uh I always think about like centennally how this history repeats. Um >> and it was about people wanting community and also this sort of subculture at that time that really wasn't having a voice. And so it was like echoing the idea of industry but also of like dreaming and wonder and all of these other things. And so it I think it makes a lot of sense that um that people are looking to Z for more topical ideas and concepts because they are like sometimes the first echo of culture that we can see that like highbrow art or highbrow corporations haven't bought into accepted right like they're what's first on the line. Um and so that's why I also think we kind of like thumb our nose or thumb our what's that saying? Thumb our sorry >> thumb our nose. we thumb something at them, but really they're like sort of the most honest sort of echo or mirroring of what's happening in a society at a time. >> I want to go on about eight different tangents from all the stuff y'all are sharing. This is so again, it's so interesting just how many issues are kind of orbiting this space. Um but on that point about uh the fact that Zenes are often coming out of these subcultures or underrepresented communities um and in some ways you're right that they're because they are uh non-commercial typically because they're not going through especially in academic publishing but you know even any kind of formal publishing system um I think you're very right that historically or you know sort of generally speaking uh they have not been regarded as as legit sources for instance in an academic archive. Um, have you felt that as you were collecting in an institutional context? Have you felt the need to um make the make the justification of what the value of these sources really are? And and do you think about uh maybe a a tension between being kind of the representative of a you know big scary state institution and potentially these really intimate really sensitive voices that are coming out through Zen because they simply don't have any other way to make their voice heard. >> Big question. I'm sorry. >> Yeah. No, they're great questions and definitely things that I really think about. Um uh fortunately I've not received any push back as to you know um why collect scenes and that's partially because there are other examples of other institutions that have been doing it um and doing it much more extensively than we're doing it currently. Um and so there's sort of models to look to. Um the where the tension there's a couple places I would say where the tension really does arise. One is um you know Z as I've said like affordable, accessible um but they're in archives and special collections which as most people know involves um you know certain steps that you have to take. You can't just walk in and pull something off the shelf. Um we try to make it as easy as possible in terms of how to request things. Um and a lot of people do request the Zen collection and um you know again try to make it really accessible. Um but you can't like take them home with you. Um, and that's partially because they are so ephemeral. Um, they're, you know, relatively cheaply made, which is their appeal, but also means that, um, they can be easily damaged. Um, and, um, and things like that. So, um, so I feel a tension in that and like I want to maximally provide access, but I also want to preserve them for the other reasons that we we've also talked about. Um, in terms of the s sensitivity, um, I wasn't thinking about this as much at the beginning as I wish I had been, but now um, if I'm purchasing directly from a creator, I always make it clear like this is for an institutional collection, like are you comfortable with that? Um, we also have them, um, all organized um, like an archival collection. So there's an inventory that we call a finding aid. Um, and I think that link will be shared um, at some point to the finding aid. There's about 500, I might have already said that in the collection. Um, and I lost my train of thought where I was going with that. Um, so that means you can find them online. Oh, and I guess what I was going to say is I have had some creators reach out to me um because they found their information online and maybe they didn't want their name or they wanted their name differently. Um, and we always respect whatever that request is when it comes in. >> I think we have a Thank you. I think we have a physical copy of the Zen Librarian's code of ethics if maybe you want to show that off [laughter] planted. Um, so this is super interesting to me because it's a it's a Zen about thinking about Zen getting super meta here. Um, but this is one of my my favorite documents. I have a copy at home. We'll show this on on a tighter camera in just a moment, but I think it's really interesting uh for those of us who both have a personal interest and a professional connection trying to navigate, you know, when am I wearing my U librarian hat and when am I, you know, just Lincoln. Um, so this is a super cool and you can find this freely online. This is one of those digital zenes you can print out at home. Um, I'm curious for those of us who have more personal Zen collections. I have a big bookshelf at home. uh do we feel the same kind of tension around privacy? Do we uh put time into cataloging our Zen collections and shelving them beautifully or are they in a big in a big pile somewhere? Um interesting to kind of think about the way that this institutional aspect changes the way that we're actually like interacting with the Zen. So, how how does your personal experience collecting compare? Well, as far as my personal collection, I I keep them all uh they're like uh I don't have space on my bookshelf, so I keep them all in a drawer, and I actually just like flip through them when I'm looking for something. Kind of like you'd flip through records, sort of. Um, but I think that I like I like having I don't know. I feel like a lot of them I bought directly from creators and it was like they post they put their work out there on Etsy or on another site and we're like you know looking for people to buy and consume this art. So I never I think thought that much about it about like if I'm intruding on privacy by like reading it because it was always like that was part of the that was part of the deal when I got them. But I think it's really cool in an um in like a uh uh institutional context. I think it's cool how we keep them organized and keep track of um a lot more of the information about them cuz my personal Zen connection or collection like does not have like I don't know what years those are from. I don't know what um the a lot of them I don't know where they're from. I don't know the cultural context of where they're from. But having them in like the institutional collection when I was working on um my uh exhibit project was like oh wow I can understand like this zen and the politics going on in this place at this time and that was really cool I think which is not you know the same experience with my personal collection but it also is nice to just have a thing of zen that I can look through when I'm looking for certain information I think. Yeah, it's kind of funny. You were talking about zenes related to social media, I think, briefly earlier, like the precursor. Um, and I I think that's true. I feel like Zes are like Instagram and Facebook and Reddit and like all these other things. And there's sometimes where like I still have time hop and my time hop will come up from like 15 years ago and I'm like, "Oh my god, wow." I just sort of like immediately cringe at myself. And so there's this world in which I'm like, "Oo, I don't know if that I'd want that out there." But also it is out there, right? Like that is the risk of social media. Um, and I think in some ways the zenes as well exist in this thing of like if you put it out there, there it is. Um, what I think is amazing is that you allow authors to come back and like have a conversation with them and adjust like what that history is together. But um, yeah, my zenes live tucked in between my books on my bookshelf. So then I'm always surprised when I pull out a book and I'm like, "Oh, yeah." So there's actually no organization. I just want to keep them flat and pressed. It's like in my in my mind it's like safe or something that way, but then I just can't see them. >> I love the surprise. >> Yeah. >> No, I think that's so I mean for a a library archives nerd moment, I think it's so interesting just to think about the way that you can use these things in so many different ways. You know, I I you there could be a a photography zene that that makes you feel something. There could be a a piece of of history that's documented in a Zen uh that maybe you access through something like a a beautifully cataloged finding aid with lots of good, you know, standardized metadata terms and so on. And then maybe you you set up a fun moment for yourself two years from now when you discover a Zen, you know, as you're as you're going through your own bookshelf, >> like an organized mess. That's my that's my system. >> That's amazing. That's amazing. It's um I think it really speaks again to the way that Zes are just touching on so much of really like the human human experience. They they could be research material. They could be uh something that helps someone in a difficult moment personally. They help us understand the world around us. Uh Victor, you mentioned your very exciting uh exhibit which is uh available and and visible on display currently in the Alden Library. Do you want to tell us more about what the exhibit is, maybe some of the process of how you actually put it together? Yeah. So my exhibit is focused on uh solar punk and sustainability and um about how solar punk ideas can um help us un or help us in our pursuit of the future. I suppose um a lot of uh the zenes pulled uh or all of those zenes are pulled from uh the the collection in the man center and are focused on different themes. Um, if you don't know what solar punk is, it's basically a subculture of punk that is focused on sustainability. And, uh, there's a lot of different things that fall into this category of like, um, learning about plants, that's a solar punk thing to do. And, um, talking about like, uh, Native American sovereignty, that's uh, goes along with solar punk ideals. Um, but there's a lot of um, but it there's a lot of it is also about imagining the future and creative imaginings of the future because um, which I think is something that like solar punk and zenes have in common is they're both about like creatively imagining the world um, either the world as it is or the world is we'd like to live in. And so I think that um, a lot of it uh, so my exhibit is basically about that. It's about um sustainability and it's about um plants and animals and how we interact with them and how would we like to interact with them and how have artists in the Zen collection imagined the future and imagined our connection with nature and um what will that future look like um given the impact that humans have had on the environment and um you know also depending on what we do next. So, that's kind of what the exhibit's about. But, it's really it's really interesting to hear from or see so many artists like voices in their zenes all talking about, you know, I was able to pull them together and be like they're all generally about this topic, but like it's so cool to see different perspectives on it. And there were like all sorts of things in there that I had never thought of before. Like one of the zenes that I really liked is like a um imagining community organ or imagining um community organizing processes um as decomposition and like talking about natural processes and then also processes we go through with community and how those connect. And I think it's cool because as we've talked about like zenes can be about anything, but I found all these zenes with like this common thread um about imagining a better future and our connection with nature, what that's like now and what that could be. Um so that's what my exhibit's about. Uh basically it's kind of abstract, but once you get once you look at it, you'll get it. Um it is in Alden Library, second floor now. So yeah. >> And when does that come down? >> It comes down in Late April is kind of what we're thinking >> for the semester. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Can I >> Yeah. I just wanted to add that one thing that you did that um I didn't, you know, see it until we installed the exhibit that I thought was really wonderful and kind of speaks back to a lot of the community aspects of Zen that we've talked about was the way that you like each zen stands alone, but also you created communities of Z talking to each other even though they weren't created together. Um, but it feels like that because of the way that you've like thematically organized them and paired them. And I think that that really helps to communicate your message. Um, but also to emphasize like all the different people um, and people in different places are thinking about these ideas and thinking about them in like unique but also like very interconnected ways. And I I just think that's important for like um something else that I think has come up is like making people feel less alone, right? That's a big part of like collecting with representation in mind. Um is so that people students can see like these are this is worthwhile. I feel like this therefore you know my story is also worthwhile. Um so I just uh I really admire that about the way the exhibit came together. >> Thank you so much. And I think what you said earlier also about sustainability being a big part of Zen making in itself, um I think really like it was just the perfect medium for an exhibit like this because so much of um of Zen making is about uh reusing and recycling and um creating something out of just what you have on hand, not buying anything new. So I think that it was just like it really gets across the message I wanted it to get across. That's amazing. Please, please do check out this exhibit. I spent some time with it earlier today and I'm going to spend some more. Um, speaking of community and of speaking of Alden Library, we as uh um Miriam mentioned currently have a live Zen making event happening right now in Alden Library. So, wonder if we can kick over to that on the screens for just a moment. You can see community being made in front of us. Um, >> that's great. >> That's good. Super cool >> and the principles that we're talking about are happening there, >> right? People are cutting up old magazines and um reusing piece like collage is a really important part of the DIY and recycling element. Um and so, you know, it's it is happening in real time right now, which is really fun to see. Um just going to add something because you mentioned collage and actually a lot of what you were saying. One I just love that it's um punk to care about things first of [laughter] all and just the idea of like oh yeah all of the cuisines can feel like very random and sort of one-offs when you bring them together it's hopeful. It's like right like actually all of these people care but um >> collage is massive in Zen too whether it's through collaging of text or even like what you said just random papers put together to get something out um and without getting like too heady about this but the idea of collage lends itself to like movements of deconstructionalism, right? the idea of taking something apart and putting it back together in order to like make something make more sense or get more meaning out of it is something that we see throughout history. And so I think there's reasons why like collage is so prevalent prevalent in these things and why that room is probably has a lot of collage going on which is exciting. I think it's really interesting to to think about um creating zenes and then collecting and and consuming if that's maybe the wrong word for zi but collecting reading appreciating zenes um as sort of two sides of the same coin. Uh and and I think this collage element and especially um the tradition that's very common in Zen culture of uh because these are non-commercial works because they're often spread among friends. There maybe are not uh formal bibliographies very often in Z. Uh there may be some copyright lawyers that might have concerns about certain zenes uh the way that they're produced. But I think that is really the magic of them and and as we're saying the way that people can build communities through this medium. I personally collected Zen for probably five years before I got up the courage to actually give someone a Zen that I had made. Um, but as soon as I broke the ice, soon as I realized that this is something I can do, uh, and to, you know, kind of pick up on some themes y'all have said earlier, um, I can speak in a voice in this context, uh, that I wouldn't necessarily speak on on my Instagram or on a a formal research paper. I get to speak from myself um and I get to do interesting creative work. I I I do uh some collage uh in Zen that I've made and it really um provides an opportunity for me to do something that I I just couldn't do in any other form. Uh so I'm curious, how do you uh think about Zen as in terms of actually creating them or or the the people who are the communities that are that are creating these works? >> Yeah, I was just going to add it as an educator that makes me so excited that you felt like you could share those. Um, that's why I really love these as assignments for students in classes, whether they're making them individually or as a group. Um, because typically college students aren't like rolling in money and things are really expensive. And so I I feel like there's there's this idea that, oh, I can't make something because I can't get it out there because I don't have the resources to. And in fact, there are so many other ways to do this, which is why um, >> I like understand the use of the internet for these things as well. Uh, so I think it gives people an avenue to just get something out there and get the conversation going and build up um like natural interest which then can lead to more things. So I think that's really really exciting and it often um if they're making it as a group I typically find group projects to be incredibly painful. I but for Zen making there's this idea that you have an individual voice and a collective at the same time and they're often like the best group projects. Um and right now the college of fine arts is undergoing like construction but in the school of art and design which is where I am at we actually had a little mini Zen library in our front office. So when people are waiting it kind of is a taste of our school right like it's not just like our corporate website or um you know the syllabi or all these other things. It's it's like our students and their voices and and it's anybody can take or add there too which is really nice. So I'm really I hope it comes back in our new building. Uh you just gave me a flashback in my uh master's program for my library degree. I worked with the Austin History Center down in Texas um to build out uh uh materials to help them catalog their Zen collections, which are pretty impressive. They've got great stuff if you're um ever visiting Austin. Uh but the favorite one that I found which is tough competition was a zen that had a note on the back page uh and it said all papers and ink uh made in this you know in the production of the scene proudly stolen from UT libraries. I'm reading this as a UT library student employee and I would never do such a thing. I I you know respect my institutions but it it really gets to this um dynamic aspect of Zen and and the fact that uh uh there's not many rules in this space which is really what allows the interesting things to happen. Um I'm curious Victor or Miriam do you have any other perspectives about uh this idea of like creation and and voice coming through Zen? Yeah, I think that I've I've read a lot of Z and I've made a lot of Z and I think it's been a really unique way to put my voice out there, but also um in kind of like you were talking about in a way that I wouldn't or that I wouldn't exactly deliver it anywhere in my school email or in my in a school presentation. Um, and being able to explore myself outside of the contexts of um, work and school, which are most of my life, and kind of understand myself as like an individual um, just kind of floating through the world. And so I think it's really helped me understand my own voice better. It's helped me um, in other forms of art outside of Z. It's helped me understand my writing voice voice better. It's helped me understand my um, artistic voice better. And um it's also helped me get inspired by things I never expected to get inspired by. I do a lot of collaging as well. And I think um getting inspired by things that even I um don't like or disagree with when I read them, I can cut them up and make them something new. And I think that's really cool. Um kind of turning it on its head and um getting something Yeah. completely new out of something old. Um, I love that last thing you said about finding something you don't like or agree with and then collaging it into, you know, changing the message. Um, and that and also link in what you were saying previously. I mean, again, like Zes are counterculture. Um, and so that that um, activist and kind of resistance element to them is often really really important. >> Yeah. Um, I was also going to add because you mentioned it helps with your writing and your research too. I think sometimes we'll think of scenes as like just fun. Um, or that because I also think of sometimes we think of creativity as not serious enough either. Um, as an art professor, I really disagree with that. But it's also really good practice, right? I need to know how to decide what I'm saying. um often more succinctly than a full paper or a full book or the endless amount of space that is on the internet. I don't really understand that. Um and I have to really get this information down and figure out how I want to message that out. Like learning what to say and how to say it is really effective skill building. Um which is essentially all that zen are not all but that's like that is their mode of medium, right? So >> yeah, >> and my time. created together. Um, but it feels like that because of the way that you've like thematically organized them and paired them. And I think that that really helps to communicate your message. Um but also to emphasize like all the different people um and people in different places are thinking about these ideas and thinking about them in like unique but also like very interconnected ways. And I I just think that's important for like um something else that I think has come up is like making people feel less alone, right? That's a big part of like collecting with representation in mind um is so that people students can see like these are this is worthwhile. I feel like this therefore you know my story is also worthwhile. Um so I just uh I really admire that about the way the exhibit came together. >> Thank you so much. And I think what you said earlier also about sustainability being a big part of Zen making in itself, um I think really like it was just the perfect medium for an exhibit like this because so much of um of Zen making is about uh reusing and recycling and um creating something out of just what you have on hand, not buying anything new. So I think that it was just like it really gets across the message I wanted it to get across. That's amazing. Please, please do check out this exhibit. I spent some time with it earlier today and I'm going to spend some more. Um, speaking of community and of speaking of Alden Library, we as uh um Miriam mentioned currently have a live Zen making event happening right now in Alden Library. So, wonder if we can kick over to that on the screens for just a moment. We can see community being made in front of us. Um, >> that's great. >> That's good. Super cool. >> And the principles that we're talking about are happening there. >> Um, right. >> People are cutting up old magazines and um, reusing piece like collage is a really important part of the DIY and recycling element. Um, and so, you know, it's it is happening in real time right now, which is really fun to see. Um, just going to add something because you mentioned collage and actually a lot of what you were saying. One, I just love that it's um, punk to care about things. First of [laughter] all, just the idea of like, oh yeah, all of the cues can feel like very random and sort of one-off. So, when you bring them together, it's hopeful. It's like, right, like actually all of these sort of people care, but um, >> collage is massive in Zen too, whether it's through collaging of text or even like what you said, just random papers put together to get something out. Um, and without getting like too heady about this, but the idea of collage lends itself to like movements of deconstructionalism, right? The idea of taking something apart and putting it back together in order to like make something make more sense or get more meaning out of it is something that we see throughout history. And so I think there's reasons why like collage is so prevalent prevalent in these things. Why that room is probably has a lot of collage going on which is exciting. I think it's really interesting to to think about um creating zenes and then collecting and and consuming if that's maybe the wrong word for zi but collecting reading appreciating zenes um as sort of two sides of the same coin. Uh and and I think this collage element and especially um the tradition that's very common in Zen culture of uh because these are non-commercial works because they're often spread among friends. There maybe are not uh formal bibliographies very often in Z. Uh there may be some copyright lawyers that might have concerns about certain zenes uh the way that they're produced. But I think that is really the magic of them and and as we're saying the way that people can build communities through this medium. I personally collected Zen for probably five years before I got up the courage to actually give someone a Zen that I had made. Um, but as soon as I broke the ice, soon as I realized that this is something I can do, uh, and to, you know, kind of pick up on some themes y'all have said earlier, um, I can speak in a voice in this context, uh, that I wouldn't necessarily speak on on my Instagram or on a a formal research paper. I get to speak from myself um and I get to do interesting creative work. I I I do uh some collage uh in Zen that I've made and it really um provides an opportunity for me to do something that I I just couldn't do in any other form. Uh so I'm curious how do you uh think about Zen as in terms of actually creating them or or the the people who are communities that are that are creating these works? >> Yeah, I was just going to add it as an educator that makes me so excited that you felt like you could share those. Um, that's why I really love these as assignments for students in classes, whether they're making them individually or as a group. Um, because typically college students aren't like rolling in money, and things are really expensive. And so I I feel like this there's there's this idea that, oh, I can't make something because I can't get it out there because I don't have the resources to. And in fact, there are so many other ways to do this, which is why um >> I like understand the use of the internet for these things as well. Uh, so I think it gives people an avenue to just get something out there and get the conversation going and build up um like natural interest which then can lead to more things. So I think that's really really exciting and it often um if they're making it as a group I typically find group projects to be incredibly painful. I but for Zen making there's this idea that you have an individual voice and a collective at the same time and they're often like the best group projects. Um and right now the college of fine arts is undergoing like construction but in the school of art and design which is where I am at we actually had a little mini Zen library in our front office. So when people are waiting it kind of is a taste of our school right like it's not just like our corporate website or um you know the syllabi or all these other things. It's it's like our students and their voices and and it's anybody can take or add there too which is really nice. So I'm really I hope it comes back in our new building. Uh you just gave me a flashback in my uh master's program for my library degree. I worked with the Austin History Center down in Texas um to build out uh uh materials to help them catalog their Zen collections, which are pretty impressive. They've got great stuff if you're um ever visiting Austin. Uh but the favorite one that I found, which is Tough Competition, was a Zen that had a note on the back page. uh and it said all papers and ink uh made in this you know in the production of this scene proudly stolen from UT libraries. I'm reading this as a UT library student employee and I would never do such a thing. I I you know respect my institutions but it it really gets to this um dynamic aspect of Z and and the fact that uh uh there's not many rules in this space which is really what allows the interesting things to happen. Um, I'm curious, Victor or Miriam, do you have any other perspectives about uh this idea of like creation and and voice coming through Zen? Yeah, I think that I've I've read a lot of Z and I've made a lot of Z and I think it's been a really unique way to put my voice out there, but also um in kind of like you were talking about in a way that I wouldn't or that I wouldn't exactly deliver it anywhere in my school email or in my in a school presentation. um and being able to explore myself outside of the contexts of um work and school which are most of my life and kind of understand myself as like an individual um just kind of floating through the world. And so I think it's really helped me understand my own voice better. It's helped me um in other forms of art outside of Zen. It's helped me understand my writing voice voice better. It's helped me understand my um artistic voice better. And um it's also helped me get inspired by things I never expected to get inspired by. I do a lot of collaging as well. And I think um getting inspired by things that even I um don't like or disagree with when I read them, I can cut them up and make them something new. And I think that's really cool. Um kind of turning it on its head and um getting something Yeah. completely new out of something old. Um, I love that last thing you said about finding something you don't like or agree with and then collaging it into, you know, changing the message. Um, and that and also link in what you were saying previously. I mean, again, like Zes are counterculture. Um, and so that that um activist and kind of resistance element to them is often really really important. >> Yeah. Um, I was also going to add because you mentioned it helps with your writing and your research too. I think sometimes we'll think of scenes as like just fun. Um, or that because I also think of sometimes we think of creativity as not serious enough either. Um, as an art professor, I really disagree with that. But it's also really good practice, right? I need to know how to decide what I'm saying. um often more succinctly than a full paper or a full book or the endless amount of space that is on the internet. I don't really understand that. Um and I have to really get this information down and figure out how I want to message that out. Like learning what to say and how to say it is really effective skill building. Um which is essentially all that zenes are not all but that's like that is their mode of medium, right? So >> yeah, and I think that yeah, like goes along with it as you were saying, it takes a lot of it takes a lot of thought to figure out how you want to present your message and like figuring out like how can I use this format and um my artistic skills to um kind of back up the message. I think that's one thing that's really cool about Zen making. Um, but they're also I don't know there you can do it in all sorts of different um formats or all sorts of you can make one out of one piece of paper, you can make one out of 10 pieces of paper. I found there's a bit of a science to making out of more than one piece of paper because it is indeed hard to get the pages all in the right order. And um my >> you get the misord. >> Yes. And also my library uh along with the exhibit there uh there is a online zen which is now in the correct order but was not in the correct order when I printed it because I couldn't I don't know spatial stuff I'm not so took me a moment to figure out but >> I have to get my hands on one of the original versions then for my my full collection. Oh I do. Okay, great. Great. I I have to [laughter] finish reading it still. Amazing >> code. Oh yes, yeah, yeah. We have uh that's on our our at some point will appear behind my head. [laughter] >> It's really interesting to me. I made a connection that's a bit of a leap, I think, but maybe interesting. Uh there's a lot of discourse online now about the idea of third spaces, which if you're not familiar, you know, we have work, we have home, we have less and less of these third spaces. uh could be a public library, a park, uh a concert venue, a bar, something a social community place where you can be a different kind of person than maybe you are at work and maybe you have to be at home. Uh and for me, I've kind of felt um that zenes are like my third space in terms of of output, whether that's academic or creative. I do things professionally is my job. Write a lot of emails. I give presentations and workshops and that um I've published or I I have presented academic work and written a lot of academic work and all of those different venues give you opportunities. Uh but Azen is really a place where I was able to um do something different that just wouldn't fit in these other places. And maybe that's part of why they're gaining uh or potentially kind of having this renaissance of of interest especially among young people who live constantly in a kind of a digitally connected world. Um the ability again to to have a physical piece of paper can be like a a a sensory experience that is really really dramatically different. >> Yeah. Well, actually, I mean, we talking about the physical, but as we sit in this um room, I do think places like um and I'm just learning about some of these, but like what around Twitch, >> Twitch, Discord, right? These spaces are these these other third spaces of connecting to. So, I think there's an inclination for like everybody to want to try to find um these ideas, too. So, absolutely, which is again how Zes are precursors to that. Yeah, >> I I agree completely. And and I I was um thinking to myself about how ironic it is that probably 95% of the scenes that I own I find through Instagram. Uh and you know if you ask me on the street why do I like scenes? I say oh well you know they're anti-corporate. It's it's you know intimate. It's it's a a physical thing. And yet I'm using Mark Zuckerberg's meta platform to find this incredible content. So I don't think that these things are necessarily um >> uh opposing each other. maybe mutually rein reinforcing in a really interesting way. >> Um >> I I'm curious how uh maybe maybe different um regionals or or regional background or something. Uh do we all agree that there is this kind of like renaissance of of interest in Zen? Did they ever go away or you know are Z going to be more popular in the 2030s than they ever have been? What are you what are your thoughts on that? I think they're coming uh becoming more popular. Um just I I mean I wouldn't have been into Zen 20 years ago because I was three, but also I think in um the last especially since quarantine, so the last like six years. Wow. Um, I have been seeing a lot more not only online but um, just people knowing Z are an artistic option. I follow a lot of artists online um, and there's a lot more artists that even previously were not making Z are now making Z because they're seeing other people do it. And uh kind of like we were talking about with Zen and conversation with each other earlier, it's a way to have conversations that are not always um socially appropriate to have at work or at school. And so I think um it's there's definitely a desire for um to engage with others about things that um that aren't always um easy to find resources, I suppose. Um, but I think it's there's definitely some sort of renaissance um of Z in the past few years. Um, but I'd like to I'd like to see what the future holds. I hope there are even more Z because I'd love to see them. I think part of it is like so many things where like, you know, originally Zen were something that you had to, you know, were passed around amongst friends or as we talked about amongst fan communities or maybe you could if you got one then you would have information on the back about how to order the next one and you'd get it, you know, in the mail through like actual mail with a stamp. Um, but like with everything with in the digital age, like you can find out about so many things that you would have been really hard to find out about previously. So I don't think they ever went away, but now like everything like just so many more people have the opportunity to stumble across them. Um, and as everyone has said, I think that lockdown did have a really big did play a really big part um, in increasing interest um, and desire and need um, for them, but also for these third spaces that we're talking about um, and also for increased sense of community. Um and now as we are six years, you know, I won't say past, but um past lockdown at least, um now we're circling back to that, you know, real need for actual personal interactions and tactility and um engaging with the physical again. So, um I think it is a continuum. Um and like Victor, you know, I hope that it continues to grow and that more people do feel um empowered to become involved in creating, collecting, talking about, um Zenes. Um and in terms of the collection, shameless plug, I guess, like um anyone can donate a Zen to us. Um so, if you're a student, community member, if we if we find them in the community available, um we we try to take in copies. Um, so yeah, >> um, I think I talked a little bit about it with like film photography and all these other things. So I do think there's people who are Yeah, they didn't go away, but we're thinking about them again. Um, and I do kind of suspect that Zen or maybe other alternative forms of communication are going to increase, especially more and more that we have bots and AI and very powerful influential people making decisions on algorithms of what we see and how we communicate. I think we're going to look for other additional avenues and Z will be one of them and I I think there will be other digital platforms. There'll be things like streaming in different spaces. I'm a big fan of snail snail mail. I love the US Post Office. Um, shout out to [laughter] the group on Simpson. But um, I think there'll be more spaces of wanting to feel like we can communicate without these parameters that are really um, often working against us and sort of siloing us in different ways. point. >> It's so interesting to me to think about just how many um uh opportunities the the idea of Zen starts to bring up specifically because it is this like exception to the rule. In many cases, it is within this bigger context that Zenes become interesting. Um, I always think it's interesting, uh, you mentioned Cassie earlier, the the deep history of Zen of the the was it 96 thesis that Martin Luther nailed on the door or is a a pamphlet like, um, Thomas Payne's Common Sense, is that a Zen? And >> I think that that that's a a totally legitimate argument. But I do think that >> whatever meaning Common Sense had as a Zen uh in the year it was published is going to be very different context than the meaning of a you know a Zen that someone hands you at a at a punk show um over the weekend. We're in a different age now. And um it's interesting to me that Zenz are really by their context kind of get this superpower of of you know commenting on these massive economic you know political uh transitions and realities of the world today. But literally anyone can uh take a piece of paper and a pencil and make their own handmade scene and it has this like sense of power about it because it's sort of commenting on this this bigger trend which I I think is is so interesting. Uh for me as I mentioned before kind of my a lot of my collecting interest in zenes is around this idea of of uh preservation which of course as a you know from a professional archavist perspective um that's a big and thorny question. I do not have my Zenes in a nice um acid-free folders away from the sunlight and so on. So I I could take some notes about actual uh technology of preservation. But for me conceptually, the idea of putting something on paper gives it this permanence uh and and then having that paper controlling it me personally and not relying on Google Drive or, you know, again an Instagram search to be able to pull up the things I'm interested in. Um, I'm really really curious about the idea of of Zenes as preserving potentially voices or events or communities that are not being preserved by other places. So I'm curious maybe did that come up in the in the Solar Punk exhibit or in in your work or in the Mon Center collections, places where Zenes are really representing groups that simply have not been preserved by other forms of media. that definitely came up in the Solar Punk exhibit, especially surrounding um Native American history because there is so little Native American history in um uh or indigenous history in like textbooks and school or um in a lot of the dominant narrative surrounding um our history as a country. And so that was a really big thing. Um there's also um a lot of uh a lot of queer stories from all different ages and eras of like um different uh stories being told that you know would not have been uh I don't think have been preserved in any other way. Um so I think that that's definitely came up during the Solar Punk exhibit. I think also um I just see it as like more and more important especially as we get in this internet age of like if um if you know Instagram will not last forever and like these uh places online will not last forever but Azen does if you hold on to it and take care of it and um it's it's a neverending conversation which I think is Great. Um, and you know, you can pass it on to people of a new generation and they can learn about stuff that they never would have heard of. Um, it's kind of like, uh, it's in a way reminds me a lot of like, um, telling stories to people where it's like it's preserved by voice in a way that it never would have been preserved um, anywhere else. So, that's just how I like to think about it. I just want to give a quick shout out to my MySpace that I have not been able to log into for [laughter] a decade which is still there. I just can't remember the password. Or did any of you have like a Zenga? Do you remember Zenga? >> It was like premy MySpace. But it's interesting because I think oh actually putting online like does save it forever but if you lose access to that or like what was the era of floppy discs like that did not age well. Um yeah so like the the idea of the physical. >> Yep. >> I have so many thoughts about this. Um, [laughter] but also I feel like we didn't have a name for our panel and I think you just like Zen's a story is is now now the name of this panel. Um, but um, yeah, the preservation piece is really tricky and I think most people think like digital is somehow um, more has more longevity. Um, but it's not true at all because of course floppy discs and countless other formats that um, we no longer can access. um or you need like extremely specialized machinery which most normal institutions um like ours do not have. Whereas paper, yeah, if you you know, if you keep it out of the sun and keep it out of the wet and um things like that, it will last a really really really really long time. Um >> amazing. Well, we've been talking for about an hour. I could probably do a couple more, but I want [laughter] to make sure that I respect all of y'all's time. Um, for me, it's so interesting to hear these recurring themes about again like this opportunity that's presented by Zen. So, if you're watching, maybe you're totally new to Zen. Uh, they can provide you a way that you can put your voice out into the world, maybe into a fancy uh Mon Center type archive. um and actually preserve uh potentially a part of your community, a subculture you're in, a weird niche interest that you know you you can't uh bore your friends with anymore. You can put it on paper with a zen and it again can gain this context through that physicality. It can be preserved through time. It can end up in an archive or in a personal collection and be treasured for generations. And uh no one can stop you from doing it as long as uh I mean you don't even necessarily need a stapler but if you can get some pieces of paper a stapler you can actually make a historical document in a way that um uh you know an academic publishing system or or um other types of media is just not possible or it doesn't at least seem possible for for a lot of people. There's intimidation and and challenges to access. That's kind of my concluding thoughts is just that uh it's a never- ending story for Z and and I I really hope that we are right that uh they will continue to gain more more kind of interest and value over time because uh they will be voices preserved through Zen that are simply not going to be found in other places and I want those voices kept for you know people in in generations or hundreds of years from now to be able to know what people were really thinking and saying today and not necessarily just what the fanciest uh uh PhD DS were were saying about a given topic, you too can actually make a real intervention in something you care about. Uh do you all have any kind of concluding thoughts about the never- ending story of Zen? I do really like that. >> I think my main concluding thought is just like if you're out there and you're you are at all inclined to make a Zen, just mess around with it for a little while. Like just make it happen. It doesn't have to be the the first one never has to be well thought out or beautiful or any of those things. It's all about just getting your thoughts down on paper. So I think that like keep creating, keep making things and uh put it out there if you're comfortable. >> Yeah, I think my my concluding thoughts are similar. I think I've I've learned so much by um working on creating a collection that I hope inspires and um provides meaning to people. Um and I want to keep growing the collection. So I hope that people, you know, very much continue creating. Um but I think that that piece that has come across over and over again which is like no one can tell you how to make your zen. Um it will be whatever you want it to be. You can give it to whoever you want or not. Um but um just having those outlets um to express however you feel most comfortable expressing or most inspired to express. Um it's really important to like follow those impulses um and not tamp them down. Um, and I think Zes can offer a really easy, affordable, zero pressure way of letting things out. >> Yeah. >> Oh, so many microphones. >> Yeah. And to sort of loop in and end on that, um that if likely if you're have if you're having this urge to make something or talk about something and it feels like personal to you, um what Z teach us and what the libraries wonderful um collection has taught us is that more than likely a lot of other people are caring about that too. And that's that's encouraging. >> So, >> well, I feel inspired today. Uh thank you all so so much for watching. Thank you all for joining me. Go check out Victory's exhibit on the second floor of Alden Library. Check out the Mon Center collections by appointment. Yes, >> by appointment or with a class visit. >> There will be a [laughter] link. >> We'll we'll send a link out in the chat for that. Uh check out the Monsenter Zen collections on the fifth floor. Make a Zen as a class project if you have a cool professor like Cassidy. Uh and make your own Zen. Start your own personal collection. If you don't want to deal with Alden, you don't have to wait for us. [laughter] Thank you all. >> [music]