Your Phone Owns You & Is Making Your Life Worse | Andrew Yang

These guys are rectangles of sadness. Of course, it's addictive. It's actually eroding our well-being. Disturbing new study found a link between technology and depression. Research confirms that excessive smartphone use presents itself a lot like addiction. >> We know they're connected to depression, anxiety. The dangers are are hiding in there. >> Joining us right now is Andrew Yang. He's a former candidate for president. We know these tools are indispensable, but also that they're eating our brains and mental health. This thing is eroding our ability to think clearly, to focus. It's changing our neurology. It's impairing our physical health, obviously, our mental health. Your life is on the line, >> Andrew. So good to see you, man. Thank you for doing this. >> Rich, I am back here in the Rich Rollverse. >> We're having an alresco experience. a little touch grass moment which is apppropo for the conversation I want to have with you about the benefits of an analog life. >> Yes. Uh very apppropo, very uplifting. >> It's pretty common to hear someone say like I'm just addicted to my smartphone. Do you think that this is a like a legitimate addiction or is it just an obsessive compulsive uh relationship that we have? Like how do you think about like that? >> Of course it's addictive and and of course it's a real thing. I mean you can see the generational impact it's had on unfortunately young girls over the last number of years. Um do you know Jonathan height? >> Yes. >> Yeah. So Jonathan wrote the book The Anxious Generation and Raise the Alarm. But the data was clear and the the data was there as early as 2017 in Gene Twangi's book IGN which is when I saw it. Um so even when I was running for president I was like hey guys FYI these devices not great for our kids. Uh and so you know that if it's having that that effect on our children it's having an effect on us too. It's just not quite as severe because our our brains matured in a different way. Uh, and um, maybe the way we use the the smartphone is is a little bit different. Um, but it's an addiction for sure and it can have very very negative effects. I mean, walking the streets of New York, I can't tell you how many people just have their smartphone out and then occasionally they bump into people and you know, you know, I mean, heck, even when I'm driving the streets of New York, have I seen someone just like walk into traffic with a sword brought up completely? So, that's an addictive behavior that I'm going to suggest could have very negative effects for for um you know, some of those pedestrians. >> The definition of addiction is the inability to control a behavior despite negative consequences. Uh characterized by a compulsive need to engage in the behavior irrespective of important life priorities. I mean, come on. Like, this is this is what we're doing. You know what I mean? And you know, I tend to have this sort of bias. I I perceive things through uh the lens of of addiction because I'm longtime sober person. And if there is a silver lining in all of this, you know, when I first got sober in in 1998, addiction was something that that you know you should be ashamed of. that was something on the margins that we pretended wasn't there and you know afflicted these poor people who you know ended up in the gutter or just couldn't get it couldn't keep the needle out of their arm or whatnot. Um and now because of the smartphones like we're all connected to this idea of addiction in a way that you know 1015 years ago we weren't because we all feel that pull. We're all succumbing to it. We're all victimized to it. And if there's one thing about addiction, it's that willpower isn't going to cut it. Like, if you're relying on your willpower to solve this problem, you're just going to relapse and you're going to relapse and you're going to get frustrated and you're just going to dig this hole. And yet, with respect to our smartphones, it's sort of like food addiction. Like, we we kind of need them in order to function in society. Um, which means we're, you know, we're just we're kind of hitting it like a drug every single day. And despite our best intentions or trying to summon that willpower to put distance between ourselves and the thing like it's almost, you know, we're doomed in that in that way and yet we're shouldered with the responsibility of solving this like what can you share about your experience with that and and what you say to people who are stuck in that loop? Yeah. Um, first, we've all been there. And I think most people know that the most constructive thing you can do is take one action in the direction that you want. So, if you're looking at your behaviors dayto-day, it could be, okay, I can't do all of this, but I'm going to say 1 hour without my phone before I go to bed. If you decide um to uh go bigger with Noble Mobile, I'll give you just my real life experience. So, I joined Noble Mobile and then I blew through the data cap in month one and uh and it was like okay that wasn't great and then um a couple months in I actually got some cash back and then got a little excited. Um and then I said to myself because I'm a goal oriented fellow was like oh let me just try and do better than that the next month. Um and then the next month I did not do better because I was very busy that month but then the month after that I did. Um so just having measurements and goals and positive reinforcement uh does make you more mindful. But the first thing to do is just take a concrete step that you can actually stick to. And for me that was look I don't know what I'm going to do the other 23 hours but the hour before I go to bed I'm not going to have this thing with me. Uh and then what I did is I actually started reading a book. And the science says that if you read a book it helps you sleep better. And you might even learn a thing or two. >> The advice I give people is the same that I give somebody who is a substance addict, which is the first thing you have to do is you have to break the denial. An addict will find, you know, any reason to perpetuate the behavior. And I think the same holds true with smartphones. Uh and with addiction, the first thing you have to do is admit that you are powerless over this thing that is controlling your life and that it is making your life unmanageable. Like this is like right out of like 12step. Uh and then once you really gro that and and kind of surrender to the fact that this thing is running your life and no matter what you do, it is in control of you rather than the other way around. realize that you can't solve the problem with the same brain that's creating it. Like you have to ask for help. >> One big mental switch for me, Rich, was realizing, and this is an important thing for all of us, just about everything can wait for 45 to 60 minutes. Like, you do not need to be instantly reactive to every message. Certainly not every social media notification. I mean, those things you should probably not even be looking at. But even a text message thinking that you have to be always on and available and being able to respond immediately unless frankly it's your your partner or your spouse or like a family member. Uh and you can put them in a particular zone where it's like hey like then it'll vibrate. Everyone everyone else can wait. Everything else can wait. Uh and then it just seems like you know you're busy doing something like you know you were in a meeting. Who the heck knows? But imagining that you're so important that you have to be able to respond to something in real time is a is an attention trap. Um >> it's also uh you know delusionary narcissism. Like you're not that you're not that important. >> That is sort of my point. >> Your obsession with being responsive is really just a fear impulse. Like your discomfort that's forcing you to reach for your phone to cure yourself of that discomfort is the same craving that compels the alcoholic to grab a drink. Like they can't sit still in their discomfort. The solution is to answer the text and feel okay that the world the uncertainty has been resolved. But learning to just sit with that discomfort is really the way forward. Like it's okay to be uncomfortable. It's not going to kill you. It might feel like it's going to kill you, but it will pass. And you'll realize over time that that thing that you thought was so urgent actually isn't. And you know, only when you part ways with it and take a break, do you really fully recognize that all of these things that you're allowing to control your life actually aren't that important. And the things that are important, your relationships, your connection to other human beings, your capacity to, you know, do deep creative work, all of those things are getting short shrift because we're confused about what's important. You know what's funny, Rich, is like one, you're not that important in that the world will not burn down if you don't respond to that thing within 30 minutes. But two, you are important in the sense that you should be able to unplug and take a walk and think >> and your life is more valuable than this, you know, and it's both living actually. >> Yes, it's both at the same time. It's been a fascinating step for for me to take. Um, yeah, but like I I've actually gotten a lot better at this where look, the people around me kind of expect that something might be an extra whatever it is, 30 to 60 minutes. um typically and that's totally fine and you know as soon as everyone realizes that um then you kind of uh feel freer and your your attention becomes um freer and yours again. >> And if you think you're uh immune from this or that you don't fall into that category in addition to doing that time inventory you can do uh an impact inventory. In other words, and this is another like thing out of recovery, like basically journal and write down how your phone usage makes you feel on an on an hourly or daily basis. And then in addition to that, do a rigorous, fearless, open, and honest inventory of how your relationship with your phone affects your relationships with to other people and how it makes those other people feel. And that's the real kind of like eye openener when you realize like, oh, I'm taking all these people for granted and not really investing in my relationships with them because the most important relationship is my one with my phone. You know what? There are studies that have been done that show that um if I bust my phone out and use it in front of you, you both like and trust me less. >> Of course. >> So, just know that that's we all know that feeling when somebody does that in front of us. And then there's a secondary one is if I have my phone out and I'm not using it, there's still that effect. You like and trust me a little bit less, just that the phone is evident. If you the if you know that the phone is inaccessible, then you like and trust me more. And so like uh we there's something called a Faraday bag where it cuts off the signal. So you could if you wanted to be really ceremonial about it like you have a meeting you could like take your phone throw put it in the bag it cuts the signal and then they'll know like hey like no one can reach you. >> It's a little performative but >> no that's a little overboard that's a little overboard but but uh it it's important to know the effect that this has um on your relationships. I spend a lot of time encouraging all of you people to pursue work that lights you up, to find that thing that gets you excited out of bed in the morning, enthusiastic about building something meaningful in the world. But if you're going to do that, please do, you are going to need a place where people can actually find you. And Squarespace makes all of that simple. So simple, in fact, it's actually kind of insane. Squarespace is the all-in-one platform that helps you build a professional website, claim your domain, and grow your brand online. One feature I love is their built-in SEO tools. 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It shows up at your door, rolls out easily, and you get 120 nights to really see how your body responds. Go to birchliving.com/richroll for 20% off sitewide. That's birchliving.com/richroll and get 20% off sitewide. In the years since uh your presidential run and the discourse around UBI and all of these kind of forward thinking ideas that you were you were putting forth. Um it seems that uh you know a lot of the conditions that gave rise to that conversation in the first place have only metastasized. We have the advent of AI and of course um this everexpanding you know epidemic of attention deficit caused by our relationship with our smartphones. Some say I was a little bit early to the scene when I came up in 2019 and 2020 saying AI is on its way and it's going to um eat the jobs. Um I could have said eat our brains and I wouldn't have been off base. This is actually much worse than even I had projected because I imagined that you'd have let's say the public sector or various figures who were trying to be counterweights uh to the AI onslaught. Um but really they're cheerleaders and at this point it feels like we're all trafficking in a world that's controlled by uh the tech platforms. >> Yeah. I mean we have an information landscape that is informed by uh the incentives of the powers that be the tech oligarchs who you know sort of these sickopants in the Oval Office who are you know currying favor to clear the regulatory space to do whatever they want while seeding these social media platforms with all sorts of information that manipulates us into thinking this is in our best interest and it's going to be this glorious future. But we all know what we feel like when we've stared at our phone too long or when we've taken advantage of of these AI tools. Like there is a you know kind of a dystopic emotional uh experience to all of this that is inescapable and undeniable. I I don't know what you're talking about. Oh yeah. I mean, we've all been there where you picked up your phone to do something and then 45 minutes later you're like, "What? What did I pick this up to do?" Because because you got um sucked down a rabbit hole. Uh and it's a terrible feeling. And I I'm a Gen Xer, so I remember the before times. And I'm blessed in that I feel like, you know, you too, like our brains were fully formed before these tools arrived. Uh but for our kids like they don't remember an era um but before the screens started to dominate and uh you know it reminds me of of this saying that I'm I'm sure um you've heard uh that we have these stone age brains and then medieval institutions and godlike technology in our pockets. >> Uh and that's where we are. It's like our brains are really not designed uh for these tools and the tools have reduced friction in a way that feels very positive and pleasant and seamless uh but it's actually eroding our well-being. >> Yeah, we're convinced that these modern conveniences and the reduction of friction and the pathway towards more ease and accessibility will make us happier and the opposite. >> Oh yeah. And it's tough too for for folks like I'm just use myself as an example. So I'm a heavy phone user. Um I'm online a lot and my wife says it's the worst part of my job that I'm on social media platforms because uh it's not good for my mental health. Um but I'm a quasi public figure. I've got things I'm trying to put out there and promote. I imagine that there are actually people that that want to hear from me. I don't know if you have any of these problems, right? >> I mean, first of all, you're not a quasi public figure. You're a full-blown public figure. >> Oh, well, thank you. Thank you. >> Uh, but I share that kind of relationship because it's very easy to say, well, I need this for my job or this is like my work and these platforms are one and the same. And so, you have this >> very justifiable excuse to lose yourself. Um, >> I'm a productive, hardworking individual and this is part of my work. Yeah. >> And so I would be negligent if I didn't spend 45 minutes on this feed going nowhere, >> right? Which is really >> when you're just mindlessly scrolling. You can tell yourself, well, I kind of need to know what's going on out there because it helps inform how I think about these things and talk about them when I'm behind a podium. But is that really what's happening? Like where is denial entering the picture here? Oh, I mean it's all of us because you can convince yourself that you are somewhat productive even if you passively absorbed for an hour because like you said, you have to have your fingers on the pulse and you're seeing what other people are saying. Meanwhile, the feed is darkened on most of these platforms where you're not getting wholesome constructive information. and you're getting weird inflammatory content around someone's um screw up or you know like this person someone you should throw online eggs at. I mean that's that's a lot of what you get. Um so there's this productivity trap element for folks like I guess you're in this boat too with me um like folks like us. One thing I've done that's made me feel better about using X is I've given the money away. Um, and so then now it feels like to the extent that I'm earning money, I'm like giving it to someone who typically um, needs it. And the messages I've gotten when I've given even, you know, $500, $600 away, it's really touching because people tell me about how, you know, they were like going to miss rent or that they just got laid off. And unfortunately, that happens eight out of 10 times. And I'm not sure if it's just because the folks who enter online giveaways are um, close to distress or that's just what's going on out there. But it's still an excuse to remain engaged on >> Oh, yeah. I make excuses all the time, man. I mean, you of your chi and life force. >> Oh, yeah. I mean, I So, my my wife says, "This is the worst part of my job." And she's right because she's seen um my mood go dark because of some online interaction. And one of the comparisons I make is that it's very very rare in our lives that your neighbor comes to your fence or or property line and starts screaming at you. Like that's not a normal experience, but you have the online equivalent just about every day. Yeah. You know, and maybe they're not screaming at you. Um but you're witnessing a screaming match. >> Yeah. Your entire constitution, like your hormonal regulation just gets completely derailed. Like you become captive to uh being impulsed by people you're never going to meet. And you become this pingpong ball. You're just bouncing around like living your life reactively based upon what an algorithm decides to show you. And what it's deciding to show you is going to be inflammatory or you know controversial or dramatic or fearinducing in some way. And that is not a bug. That's the feature. That's the underlying you know it speaks to the underlying incentive system beneath. >> Yeah. That's the the revenue model. Uh the average American is now checking our smartphone between 186 and 205 times a day. So if you think about how many hours you're up and about, um that comes to once every 6 minutes or so, something along those lines. And for someone hearing that who thinks that's crazy, just start timing yourself. Um we we actually have uh like a noble life app that just gives you a very uh clean score where anything over a hundred means that uh it's excessive and anything below 100 would be considered good. >> What is this doing to our physical health and our mental health? Like what is the the data and the science say? Do you have a sense of that? >> So it it's different across groups. I mean the most striking and painful data is among young people where um it's eroded uh mental health and led to a spike in anxiety and depression. Uh it has made forming human connection more difficult. When you look at the rate of friendship or having close friends, it's fallen off a cliff. Socializing with other teenagers in real life has fallen off a cliff. For adults, it's lowered our attention span. It's made it harder for us to focus. And and one of the um challenges that I've set for myself that you probably are because you're very elevated, you probably do this naturally. Um but try and just put your phone away um when you're having a meal um with your family and then see if you can actually just go through the meal talking to your kids. Um so what we do in my house, we say, "Hey, no screens at the table." But the odds of me or my wife or one of my kids violating that rule sometime midmeal moderately high unfortunately because it's like oh I need to take this call or I need to do this. Uh and so it's diminished our capacity to have uh deep relationships and meaningful experiences. Mhm. There's some uh research that has come out over the last year from Carnegie Melon, Oxford, MIT, UCLA that basically says that uh reliance on AI is kind of um stunting our problem solving skills, our memory retention. I think there was one study that even compared the mental impairment of reliance on these tools to that of a a drunk driver and concluded that it's even worse. And so people are walking around like impaired as if they're drunk like all day long. Like it is insane what we're signing up for and kind of volunt volunteering for. Uh and like you I'm Gen X. Like I'm an elder Gen X. our our neurons were formed, you know, before any of these tools came online. But if you're Gen Z or or Gen Alpha and you've never known anything differently, like your brain is being formed by these things. And I think there's also some studies that suggest that even when you take these tools away, especially from a younger person, they're so used to pattern switching, you know, kind of like the attention deficit, like always trying to look at something new, that even when you remove that, like their brain is still doing that and insists upon that. So you know it's difficult for them to more difficult for them to be present to focus and you know to kind of concentrate or or do any kind of like deep work. >> Yeah. Is a making us smarter or dumber? I think we all know what's making us dumber. Um just like when ways and Google maps hit like our ability to find our way to a destination um >> it's it's cognitive offload. we've just offloaded everything. It seems like a good thing, but maybe not. >> Yeah. And and uh the revenue model of these tech platforms is around maximizing engagement and then AI is now like a turbo boost uh before that. Uh and so what it behooves us to do is to actually try and circumscribe these tools in our own lives. I mean, you and I are both friends with Arthur Brooks. Um, and he said a number of rules to live by in terms of your smartphone that are actually achievable for most people. Um, now do I achieve them on most days? I I achieve maybe half of them. Um, but they're things like stay away from your phone uh an hour after you wake up, an hour before you go to sleep. uh go meals without them, take one phone break per day outside of uh these times that you're describing and take like a weekend off from your phone uh about every month or so. So, some of these things I do every day where it's like, do I put my smartphone away before I go to bed and then do something else like maybe even read a book? Yeah, I I do. Like, that's something that I think many of us can do. Um I I'm not able to do it in the morning. I wake up and think I'm a very important person and I need to see what's going on. Yeah. So that's not that's not a good habit. Um but uh these are spaces that we need to carve out more and more. And now I I've started a company to try and help people move in that direction. And um I'm thrilled uh that you like what we're building with Noble Mobile because I think we have a chance to help a lot of people. >> Yeah, I love it. I mean it is such a unique uh uh business proposition. The idea that you're you can like your cellular carrier and that the business incentive is to reduce your phone usage. Like how does that even work? Like do you actually pay people back? Like how does that even make sense from an entrepreneurial point of view? >> So I I was inspired by a company called Cost Plus Drugs that Mark Cuban started. Are you familiar with this company? I am. >> Has Mark been on? >> No. >> Oh, we should have Yeah, we should freaking get him on. I mean, you guys would get along great. >> Um, so for those people who haven't heard of this company, Cost Plus Drugs buys generic drugs in bulk and then sells them to the American public at a very modest markup of 15%. And now hundreds of thousands of Americans are getting their drugs from Cost Plus Drugs. And it's saving lives. It's saving people millions and millions of dollars. So, I'm friends with Mark. Um, I'm trying to get him to run for president. Go Mark. Cuban. >> What about you? >> Um, Cuban Yang 28. Um, something along those lines. >> Go ahead. Sorry. >> No, no, it's fine. Um, so, you know, I'm talking to Mark and I'm like, Mark, this is genius. We have to try and figure out how to cost plus other things uh in Americans lives so that we're not getting gouged as much. Um, so I went through the average American's cost structure and it goes unsurprising. Housing, healthcare, education, food, fuel, transportation, media, and then wireless. And so I thought, which of these could we actually cost plus? So Mark took a shot at drugs, which is in uh, you know, category 2. And I I landed in category number eight, wireless. I was a Verizon customer for 20 years, paying them $150 a month just for myself. So that's that's high. Um the average American spending 83 a month on their wireless. So if you're spending more than that, you're above average, you know, in a bad way, honestly. Honestly. Um but what what shocked me was that the average European is spending $35 a month or less than half of what we're spending. And so I started to dig in and wondered could we get Americans a better deal. Uh so I went to Verizon, AT&T, and T-Mobile um to see who would want to build something better for the public. T-Mobile said, "We're interested." And so what we did is we bought all this data wholesale from T-Mobile. Um but we realized that if someone used less data, it would enable us to return half the savings to them. So, what we're doing really is we're cost plusing all of your wireless data. And if you were to use less data in a given month, then we will actually send you cash back. What what um we've done is we built a rebate system that is like a friendly angel that rewards you for doom scrolling a little bit less. >> Yeah. Nobody likes their cell phone carrier. I think I've been with AT&T since I moved to Los Angeles, like 1996, 1997. It's a constant hassle. It's a nightmare. But until Noble came along, like I never thought like, well, how you know, how do you change? There isn't any other option. You just have to tolerate it. They have all the leverage. Um, and then to realize, like you explained to me, um, their margins and just how much they're gouging you and how difficult they make it for you to make any kind of switch or take back any of that power. Yeah, that del that delta between $83 and $35 a month. I don't know if that sounds like a lot to people, but that adds up to a hundred billion a year in extra spend on our wireless data. And of that h 100red billion, 11 billion is going to Verizon shareholders uh in pro like just straight cash. Verizon takes 11 billion of their profits and pays it to their shareholders as a dividend. AT&T, um, your former carrier, took $7 billion last year and sent it to their shareholders as a dividend. Um, and then T-Mobile was another three or so. So that's 21 billion of the hundred billion in extra spend. Um, one of the reasons I I'm so passionate about Noble Mobile is that I firmly believe that saving money actually makes you feel better about your life, your prospects, your future. um where if you feel like time is working for you, then you feel better. Whereas if you feel like the walls are closing in and your bills are higher than your your income, let's say, um then you start to feel more pessimistic. So with Noble, the most you can pay in any given month is $50. And I will confess to everyone that's what I pay a lot of months because I'm a heavy phone user. Um $50 is still, you know, $100 less than I used to pay. Um but if you don't use a whole lot of data, and Wi-Fi doesn't count in this um this calculation. So if you're at your home or your office, um you're probably using no data because you're just on your Wi-Fi. Uh the least you can pay us is $30 a month. So, the average Noble user is paying $42 a month and using their phone 15 to 20% less than they did before they started with us. And I think for a lot of people here, that would be an appropriate target. Like, you're not trying to throw your phone into the ocean. Maybe some of you are. I would enjoy that, but but if I were to say to you, hey, you know, you're going to reduce your screen time by 15 to 20% and get paid for that. most people would uh would be thrilled. >> Well, it's acknowledging an incentive that actually works. You know, the onus is on us. Uh it's sort of this bottomup thing as the end user to figure this out. And there's all these apps. We can grayscale our phone. We can we're sort of acknowledging like we need these things in order to function in modern society even though our relationship with them is unhealthy. And so we try to protect ourselves with creating boundaries that we are constantly breaking. and these apps to carve out time or block out our you know social media apps for periods throughout the day so that we can focus. Uh and that's fine. Um but like money >> yes like oh you're going to pay like I'm actually going to save money or you're going to refund my money or you know like that >> is speaking an entirely different language. >> Yes. Like we're simple creatures. We like measurements. We like rewards. We like money. We like getting paid for doing something that we kind of want to do but haven't really had this kind of nudge uh or incentive. And we've seen it among our users. I mean, our users have changed behavior because when you're doom scrolling at the margins, you're like, "Oh, wait a minute. I'm actually costing myself money if I'm out to dinner with my friends or family and I've got my phone out." And then you you get reminded, I should not have my phone out. Like, I'm here to hang out with my my friends or my family. Um, so it it's been uh an awesome success thus far. Uh, and uh it's it's great to do something that um both saves people money, which which I love, but um Hassan Minhaj, the comedian I'm friendly with, um calls these guys our rectangles of sadness. It's like uh you know, imagine getting rewarded for using your your rectangle of sadness a little bit less. >> Mr. Andrew Yang, would you say that your relationship with your phone is intentional or reactive? >> Mostly reactive, unfortunately. Uh, you could even say abusive where it just sends me pings and notifications and vibrations and I just run to it and respond saying, "What is it? What's the matter?" >> Well, I got good news for you, Andrew, because there is a cellular company that's going to help you with that very problem. And it's actually gonna pay you to use your phone less. >> Well, I do like money. What's it called? >> It's called Noble Mobile. Have you heard of it? >> I have. In a dream, it came. >> If you want to learn about Noble Mobile, the company founded by the great Andrew Yang sitting next to me right now. You can do that and you can sign up and you can change your relationship with your phone entirely. Here's what you're going to do. You're going to go to nomobile.com and you can try it for just $10 for your first month when you use the very special VIP behind the velvet rope code. Rich roll. Make your relationship with your phone less abusive, more deliberate, little more distant, and we'll all be happier. There is all this emergent evidence-based science coming out about the benefits of light therapy for skin health, which I have to say is something that I've been increasingly interested in, especially since I'm nearing 60. And uh I got to say that I've fallen in love with the Eye Restore aluminina face mask. And the reason why I like it so much and why it stands out against the many competitors that are out there is because it uses three different light modes simultaneously. You got red light to boost collagen and elastin production, infrared to calm inflammation, and blue light to reduce acne and prevent breakouts. And it has 360 LEDs, which is more than twice the number in most of the popular devices. It's simple to use. It's convenient. I pop it on when I'm doing something else like answering emails. Just 10 minutes a few times a week. That's it. And my skin just looks better, more even, a little more alive. They also make the I Restore Elite for hair growth. Built on that same idea, technology that works quietly in the background while you go about your life. And right now, I Restore is offering some huge discounts on their red light therapy devices. Right now, you can save on customer favorites like the I restore Elite helmet and the aluminina face mask. Just head to i restore.com and use code rich roll. How do you think about these platforms, our relationship with them and how you're trying to message people about developing a healthier uh perspective on all of this? >> Yeah, it's good fun, Bo. I mean, working with folks like you and Scott Galloway and Arthur Brooks and Chelsea Handler, like all of whom have embraced Noble because they realized it's going to help people uh they're using it and and one of the revelations I had um switching from Verizon to Noble even I was like, is my stuff going to work? Um and then when it does work exactly the same or better, then you you get really fired up. You're like, wait a minute. I was giving those guys an extra $100 a month for what? >> Yeah, I didn't realize how easy it is to switch and you just basically toggle a few switches on your phone and it takes care of it. >> Every device manufactured from 2018 on has an ESIM in it that just you can direct it to talk to another network. So for the average person, you can switch in like five or six minutes. Uh and that's what most people don't realize. Most of us Gen Xers, we think we have to go to a store and stand in line and do all this stuff. Um, but we're we're much freer than that. >> Well, the best way to make data work for us is to uh use it to schedule uh IRL experiences, you know, and I know that's one thing that Noble does, like you have these phone free events, and if there's, you know, another silver lining to this moment that we're all weathering, it's a greater appreciation for connection and community. Like these things were meant to foster that. They put distance between us and other human beings and now we're kind of like in this moment where we're craving it more than ever. And you're seeing even you know young people especially like yeah. So, some of the things we're messing around with, um, for example, would be, um, everyone puts their phone in a box, um, at the dinner table out at a restaurant and then if no one actually uh, takes their phone out, then you get 10% off your bill like paid for by by Noble, >> or money incentive. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, we we do tend to traffic in in money because um but data is money and that's one of the interesting things here. Another idea that I had was that if you go you get together with a friend in real life and you take a picture and then you like send it to send it to us or post it then you get like a you know discount off your uh cell phone bill that that um month. So that there are these um these positive ways that we can use a billing relationship. Um but totally agree with you that um it's all meant to spur in real life experience and connection relationships. We've had over 10,000 people attend these no phone uh offline parties um including like hundreds at an event here in LA. Um, we have one in New York in May that the New York events tend to be pretty well attended because, you know, like everyone likes to, you know, take a break and and party. And I will say for folks like you and I, Rich, it is so much fun attending a phone free party because you have no choice but to look at each other and converse and maybe buy someone a drink and it feels like a college party in the '9s again. And one person actually tried to get someone else's phone number and but no one had a phone so they wrote the number down on a napkin just like we used to do. >> The '9s were the best um >> in the '9s. And but it makes you realize how this phone has become such a like a a crutch and a barrier um between people in those kinds of settings because if you're bored or lonely at a bar or club today, what do you do? you bust out your phone like a second later and then you're like, "Oh." And then you're like soothed and you're seeing what what's going on. But if you don't have that recourse, then you're like, "All right, who's who's here?" Like, "What's going on?" >> Yeah. You're you're Yeah. You're forced to get out of your comfort zone and interact with people. I think a lot of it also has to do with the the fact that like nobody has them. And that that kind of mirrors Jonathan Height's research with schools. It's not that um kids are are against a no phone policy, they just don't want to be the only one. Like, so if you take the phone away from everyone, they're actually a lot happier and everybody's kind of flourishing on a whole new level. So these phone free parties or whatever these IRL events, like the fact that no one has it, that that's the whole deal. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um you can check it out at offlineparty.com. Um, we've now had uh maybe 22 of them. Um, and I've been to virtually all of them. So, I've partied a lot this past year uh without phones, which also is kind of liberating, too, cuz like, you know, no one's taking photos or recording anything uh digitally. Uh we walk around with those old school um film cameras, you know, like the disposables. >> Yeah. You talked about I want to get into like other solutions. So you mentioned like oh don't bring you know no phones for dinner or you can do these um you can set up boundaries this is my deep work time etc. Yeah >> or institute some kind of digital detox like do these ever work or you just rubber band back to like your bad behavior. I mean, it's it's sort of like an intermittent fast, I suppose, if you use food as an analogy, but we still find our way back to that compulsive behavior where we're just being impulsed almost, you know, against our will. >> You know, there was a study, and I think it was even run by Meta that if you spend a week off of social media platforms, your mood improves significantly. Uh, and that's true, too. if if someone takes your device away. So, like the first day you're freaking out, but then by the second or third day you're like, "Oh, this actually kind of nice." Um, so I'm with you that the guidelines or the um time restrictions that are self-imposed tend to have real limits um in their effectiveness and utility because you know it's always there. You know that you know after the meal ends you can rush to your phone and and be comforted by it. Um, but I I think what Jonathan height established is really the answer, which is if no one has it, then you're fine. It's just if you're the only loser who who doesn't have the phone in your school or at the party, then you feel deficient. Uh and so that that's the norm that can be established within a family environment, within a company or organization, within a school district, within a friend group, maybe even within um you know, a locality. Uh and that's something that Noble wants to be helpful to. And in in our own lives, I mean, I think we're our best accountability buddies. And I suppose that I don't know if that's a technical addiction term, but um one thing I did when I was a kid, I was very profane as a kid because uh I was one of the only Asian kids in my town and I didn't want to be a nerd. So I just swore all the time. So then I I got to college and was still swearing all the time and this cute girl I liked um said, "Why do you cuss so much?" And then I said like, "I don't know." Oh, and so I gave a couple of guys I hung out with at that time license to punch me in the arm as hard as they could anytime I said or >> And >> because you like this girl? >> Because I like this girl and I wanted to clean up my my, you know, >> my act um to uh date her. And so, of course, my friends rejoiced at the ability to like pound me anytime I I cursed, which I did all the time cuz I just did it like every um you know, third sentence without thinking about it. And it totally worked. Um, and then I I stopped swearing because it got to a point, Rich, where when I swore and these guys weren't around, I would flinch because I was so used to getting pounded. >> Negative incentives work. >> Yeah. Like positive incentives work. Noble, as you guys can tell, is very, very benign and positive. Um, but if if you give someone in your life license, and one of Noble's ads, which is funny, meant to be funny, is me smacking phones out of people's hands. Yeah. But it if you give someone in your life like like the ability to let's say it's like hey anytime I bust my phone out um during a meal like you know you get $5 or whatever for like your kids or whatn not they'll call you out like every chance they get like uh if you can establish some kind of norm or culture that might be um fun or rewarding or punitive like I think u you know that that can give you hope. Yeah, it's tough, man. Like, I'll create these rules like, well, there's a difference between uh using my phone to create something and using it to consume, but that's also just artifice. Like, I can totally >> be in denial about that. Yeah. And I will take my phone into the gym and realize that >> a workout that should take 45 minutes ends up taking two hours. And I'll justify, oh, I'm making notes or I'm having creative ideas and I'm like writing them down. And so I'm kind of multitasking or I'm preparing for a podcast. >> Same. Same. >> But like, no, this is not the way. >> You and I are kindred spirits. So, two things we've done uh to try and be helpful. So, number number one, everyone will appreciate this. Everyone wants to know what their baseline is, what their current behaviors are. Um, so if you download the Noble Life app, it's totally free. Just takes a minute to download. And all it's going to do is it's going to monitor how many times you pick up your phone. and and uh and how how much uh doom scrolling you're doing. Um and so we said 100 as like the reasonleness threshold. If you're above 100 um you get these, you know, cheeky messages being like, hey, your brain might be running a little bit. And then if you're below 100, then it's like, oh, you're you're good. And that's free, easy. It's meant to be a fun resource and tool for people. Um now one of the things obviously because we're a business um if you have the Noble Life app anytime you're below a hundred then you develop uh cash rewards because that's the way we we roll we roll and then the the cash rewards then can be used as a credit um for uh Noble Mobile. Um, so that's the second thing is that if you have an interest uh in actually getting your behavior aligned um to your wireless plan, then check out Noble Mobile. Um, we save you money just about like, you know, everyone saving like almost 50% or more off their cell phone bill, but then we'll in all likelihood reduce your screen time by 15 to 20%. >> Yeah. I mean the the function the aspect of that that I like the most. I mean the money is fine and that's great but it's it's showing you those metrics so that you can break the grip of denial and actually objectively see how you're behaving because it's >> we all lie to ourselves man. We all lie to ourselves. >> This is the deal like the stakes are high. This thing is eroding our ability to think clearly to focus. It's changing our neurology. It's it's impairing our physical health, obviously our our our mental health. We can't concentrate. Like it is truly coming for all of your time. And your life is on the line. And the only resource that we can't renew in our lives is time. And we squander it without thinking about it. It really is tragic. And so I think it's just, if I could say anything, it's just incumbent upon all of us to really rethink this and not be so cavalier about it. I think we're just like, "Oh, well," or, "Well, everyone's doing it and it's just kind of the thing." And to understand that we have agency and that you're actually financially incentivizing people to do this. Uh, this is serious business. Like, your life is truly on the line. the stakes could not be higher. And I implore everyone to rethink this relationship. And if you think it's okay, even if your screen time is high, if you do an inventory, like write down what you do every 15 minutes throughout the day and do that for a day or or a week, I think pretty much everybody will be shocked how much time they're wasting. And then we walk around saying, "Well, I don't have time for this, that, and the other." And the things that are most important in life end up coming last because this becomes first because we're addicted to it. And it is insane from pillar to post and we're all just, you know, kind of accepting it. It's crazy talk. Yes. Uh, amen, brother. And it's interrupting our actual in real life relationships. I mean, studies have shown that you do a digital check-in and you're like, "Oh, I'm good with this person." And you're less likely to see them face to face. catch up with them for coffee or lunch. This includes close family members. Um, and these screens are not a substitute for actual human contact. Uh, and all the science bears that out. Yeah. Um, if I could say anything, especially to young people, like the good news is the bar is so low right now. Like everybody is so distracted that if you could just develop a modicum of focus, like maybe 20% of what you were doing when you were 23 years old. uh that puts you in the 99.99 percentile like like like if you could just carve out some degree of deep focus throughout the day, you can leaprog over everyone because everyone is so distracted now. So you could actually distinguish yourself and accomplish quite a bit because everyone is so locked in on their doom scrolling. And when you talk about accomplishing something, Rich, what I think about really is quality time with my kids. Um because all too often it's not high quality unfortunately you know like you get together with them and instead of actually having a heart-to-heart real conversation it's just very practical and activity based and like I'm distracted and they're distracted and then it's easier you know like you take them on a family trip the easiest thing to do is give your kid an iPad or screen and then they'll let them sedate themselves like on the plane ride instead of trying to you know tell them about where they're growing up. >> Yeah. So, what's your message to parents and how do you do that as a parent yourself? >> You know, I mean, I think most people know the afism that kids respond to what you do, not what you say. Um, and it's one reason why like uh you know, I need to do better and be a better role model because they they see right through you if you're like, "Hey, don't use your screen so much." And then you bust yours out like uh you know, at the dinner table or on the family trip or whatever it is. So then you have to lead and then you have to be good human and good spirited about it when it doesn't work the first the second time and then that like third or fourth time like maybe they'll they they'll actually uh enjoy it and be attentive to uh you know like the Picasso Museum or wherever I drag them to. That's a real story. I did drag them to Picasso Museum. When you were running for president, what did you learn about the digital information ecosystem that the average person might not understand or be aware of? I was competing, so you try and get attention any way you can. Um, and so I joke with my wife or she jokes about it being like the like presidential event Olympics where it's like, oh, what talent do you have that translates well online? whether it's dancing the Cupid shuffle or getting on a skateboard or like all these things and and so I think that's something that I've inhabited and lived in a way that most people don't fully understand. Um and and you know what the downsides are of that too where like it's uh it's just a tension. It's like if you can do something that's snazzy and um grab someone in the first 3 seconds um then you have a better chance to compete uh in this economy. Um but then you know if you have like a substantive message um then you're at something of a disadvantage. The election process then mirrors uh you know every kind of digital creator's experience. I mean it's same is true in podcasting or anyone who's trying to put a message out there like if you want to capture >> attention man. >> Yeah. >> You've been running for president this whole time roll for president 28. >> No way. Uh what about are are you first of all how are you feeling about the state of liberal democracy right now? And would you consider running again? >> Uh I don't feel great. People reach out to me all the time >> freaking out about uh AI. Um, and I'd consider running again if I thought I could be constructive and generative and helpful and actually advance real solutions. Uh, you know, one of my jokes is I'm almost too young not to run again. >> Yeah. >> Because I'm under the age of 77 or whatever the age is. >> All right. Well, you heard it here. Uh, I I'll interpret that as a Yes. >> Yang roll 28. >> Yang Gang is getting back together again. >> Yang Gang plus rich roll, >> right? Unstoppable. >> Noble mobile. Freaking get off that phone. Look up. Touch grass. >> Except people are going to need to see you on their phones if you're going to run for president. This is the conundrum, Andrew. >> Maybe I'll show up to everyone's door. >> We can't live without them. >> Yeah. And and that's actually the summary, Rich. It's like, look, we know these tools are indispensable. Um but also that they're eating our um brains and mental health. Uh so let's do better. And you know, I mean, I I try and be good humored about things, but this is like a, you know, like multi-million dollar business uh that wants to be a counterweight on the human side. And right now, you have this, you know, series of tech giants that uh just want to extract and like ring value from us. Uh we want to build something everyone's excited about and happy to be a part of. Last thing, leave people with one actionable takeaway uh that they can practice today or tonight around their phone hygiene other than signing up for noble money. >> Oh, no. No. This is the most practical one and it it's even kind of catchy. >> Don't sleep with your phone. Don't make love to it. Um but what it means is really just put it in another room. Just plug it in in another room. that physiologically will help you sleep better, will help you actually wake up um in a better state of mind. And this that's science. Uh like just the phone in your room, some part of your brain knows that it's there and wants to respond to it. So just put it to bed in the living room. And some people when they hear this say like, "Then how am I going to wake up?" There's something called an alarm clock. It costs approximately $12. You can have one function. continue to set that alarm, but do not sleep with your phone in the same room as you. >> Amen, brother. Thanks, buddy. Thanks. Appreciate you.