Your Nonprofit CEO Will Leave. Are You Actually Ready?

[music] Hey, welcome back everybody. It's another episode of the nonprofit show and we're really going to dig into this issue of interim leadership and we're going to talk about communications and how to explain it. I have Aaron Roden Biker with us. He's a senior creative strategist um marketing and communications with s third sector and then we have Joan Brown our fave chief operating officer from third sector as well. Hey, welcome you two. Thank you. >> Hey, nice to be here. >> It's going to be really great, great conversation because this is a super important topic. Um, and we have a lot of important topics on the nonprofit show. On Friday, we celebrated our 1,600th episode, and we would not be here without our partners. They include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Staffing Boutique, JMT Consulting, Third Sector Company, Your Parttime Controller, and Intuitit QuickBooks. I'm Julia C. Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. And really quickly, we were uh uh awarded number one best podcast in philanthropy. I told our producer I wasn't going to talk about it this morning, but it slipped in there. So, sorry, Kevin. Hey, Erin. Okay, you you get the prize for the most interesting guest location of the day. Tell us where you're coming to us from. >> Yeah, I'm in Copenhagen, Denmark. Wow. Okay. So, >> across the world, I think from where both of you are. >> And what time is it there? Dinner time. >> Uh, it's dinner time, past dinner time. So, yeah, I'm not Danish. I'm originally from the West Coast from Seattle. Uh, and that's where I started with Third Sector Company and been able to keep going all the way across the world. Um, even here in Copenhagen. Yeah. >> Amazing. Amazing. Well, Erin, it's great to finally meet you. Um, you and I correspond quite a bit through email or we're just copied on things and uh, so it's super awesome to to get to see you. Um, Joan Brown. Okay. Where are you coming to us from? >> Well, not nearly as exciting as Copenhagen, Denmark, but I'm in Fort Wayne, Indiana. >> Pretty cool. Pretty cool. >> Pretty cool. Yeah, I would say pretty cool. Well, this is a great part of uh interim leadership, working with people from different places around the world. I was going to say country, but it's really more global than that. And uh so this is a fun way to really dig into that and explain the the beginning of our conversation because I want to know why we are so unfamiliar with this. And maybe Joan, I'll start with you because it seems to me the interim leadership is such a basic concept, especially now with an aging workforce. We're moving through our leadership at alarming rates. Um, talk to us about this word in the process. One of the reasons that I think there's been a slow adoption, we'll say that, of interim leadership is just a long time feeling that this is sort of like emergency crisis. You only need an interim if you haven't planned. You only need an interim if you're caught off guard and that there's almost has been almost a stigma that having an interim signaled some lack of leadership on the board's part. Perhaps we know that's not true. One of the things that we've seen through hundreds of years is that congregations have practiced interim leadership for all of this time because they figured out this is the best way for a smooth transition is put some space between the departing leader, the pastor, the rabbi, the priest, and the incoming to give everyone a time to settle and have a vision for where you're going. So, it's not a new idea. We're just a little slow in accepting it for our nonprofits as a best practice. >> Well, Erin, it's fascinating to hear Joan's perspective because the thing that stuck out to me was like crisis communication. >> I mean, holy moly, when you are talking about something and you have to to even put those glasses on and say these are the lens that we're looking through. Oof, that's a tough cell. >> Yeah, I think most of my my work with third sector company is really thinking about uh sort of the digital billboards and digital spaces where, you know, uh a nonprofit that's facing a transition, there's a board member who's probably sitting on their phone at 10 p.m. at night on their sofa going, "What do we do? What are our options?" Um, and and so I think about, you know, what are the search terms and what are the tools and guides that might work, but in reality, you know, these tools can only get you so far. You you need a person. And it would be great if someone from inside the organization could fill in uh or a board member could step in, but I think you used the example of the religious communities earlier. Not everybody can teach, not everybody can preach. um you know in those communities two 200 300 years ago you you know you needed someone a special person to come in and do those things and we kind of have the problem where boards and search committees think oh yeah we could probably we could probably weather this storm until we get a permanent person but you know we know the methods and we know kind of the emotional intelligence that it takes to be a leader in transition. uh we know 800 people who can do it and so we're kind of always trying to reach people in those moments of crisis uh to say what their options are. >> Right. So thinking about that then I hear you say something really interesting and that is is that you can you can actually plan for this. Sure, there's going to be a crisis at some point where your leader leaves, but for the most part, it seems like we know that these transitions are happening. Um, and I'd love to get your opinions about thinking about interim leadership so that we're not just saying it's a crisis situation, right, Joan? I mean, is that appropriate? I mean, should we be talking on the board level about this? We should be talking at the board level at all levels of the organization because the truth is everybody leaves. Everybody leaves one way or another. You are going to have a leadership transition within your organization. And so why not have those conversations? They're best had when you don't need them, >> when no one is emotionally involved, when no one thinks that conversation is targeted at them. um when it's just part of the organizational healthy succession planning. This is where we think interim leadership should be introduced to every organization. When you are thinking about oh perhaps our leader will leave. It's not perhaps your leader will leave. Let's have a plan for that. So we're not in crisis mode. So it's not an emergency. And part of that succession planning discussion should be under what circumstances will we consider an interim a professional interim leader. [clears throat] >> It's it's really interesting because Erin, going back to your your first point, if you don't know what this means, how do you make these decisions or how do you have these discussions? And and I'm going to throw it to you like how do you even have the language? because I think you're right about this. You know, I always say it's 2:00 in the morning and you're, you know, you're surfing your phone trying to solve a problem. [laughter] You were kind. You were like sitting on the sofa at 10, but I'm like, it's it seems to me that that um we don't even have the correct language to understand what this looks like. >> Yeah, I think that's that's totally right. And you know what comes to mind is is uh just this summer as I was visiting family, I was talking to my aunt and we're sitting at the kitchen table and she's a board member and she was telling me all about how their executive who is kind of burning out, needs a sbatical uh and they're a founder. So that means every board member has a very special relationship to this executive and their family. And I just started telling her about what I do and what we do at Third Sector Company. And it is that moment where you start talking about succession planning and you know you have to kind of warn people. It doesn't mean you're you're getting you're letting somebody go. You know it's not like this scary dirty word. It's there are methods and processes that we talk about in interim leadership that are about the entire leadership continuity to prepare before there's ever a crisis mode or you know someone has departed. So it's it is sitting at those kitchen tables and and kind of connecting the dots to say you're already kind of frustrated or you're kind of burnt out. You're running out of options of what to do. Have you thought about and I just started talking about the tools and the conversations that we have in succession planning and leadership continuity. >> Wow. So Joan, you said something kind of chilling but spoton. Everybody leaves. Um this conversation should be a rolling conversation um in general. But if you do have somebody that could identify, I'm out of here when I turn 65 in two years, 2 months, 20 days, whatever, how do we back this up? Like like how far in advance should we re really be leaning in on this? >> I think that that we should lean into it the moment somebody has that thought, >> right? the moment somebody in the organization says, "You know what? I I think there's going to be something different here." Um I we see founders, legacy leaders, people who have been in place for a long time that have a deep concern for the continuity of the mission. Not we're not always so worried about the structure of the organization, but how do we continue the mission? >> And they will give a long runway. >> Yeah. And that is a great time to say, you know, this person's been in place for 27 years. >> This is not going to be an easy transition. >> It's going to be hard to follow then. And we do in fact see that when the next hire is made after a founder or legacy leader, that's often a short-term hire. >> Um whether you plan for it that way or not because they're so wonderful and so hard to follow. So, organizations that begin to say, "We don't know when this is going to happen, but let's start to explore all of our options. So, maybe we're not doing it at 2 in the morning or 10 at night, but we've got a plan in place so that whenever this happens, >> we're all set. We know what we're going to do." >> Yeah. I I It's interesting to hear the way you phrase this, the both of you. And it seems like you're giving everyone permission to think about this while deescalating the fear and dare I say the ego involved um in somebody saying I'm going to be leaving. Um Erin, I love that you said that continuity of mission. Joan, you mentioned true leaders that worry more about the organization than themselves are more likely to lean in. And that's something to look for, don't you think? >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. Really, really interesting. So, let's talk about this a little bit more in in terms of using interim leadership, understanding how we get um our board to to understand this. We were chatting in the green room. My observation is in my own community, interim leadership is not well known, but it's starting to be known within certain sectors um of the nonprofit world. And it seems to me here um it's health and human services that they've leaned into it. Um, and I'd just love to kind of get your feedback and maybe we can start with you, Erin, because selling the board on understanding this, it's it's a cell. >> Yeah, I think, you know, I think it's boards want to act quickly uh to solve a problem, especially if they're looking at an executive is retiring or leaving. And and of course you want somebody who's in charge of the ship, but I think back to, you know, the story that I shared about, you know, being at the kitchen table and talking to family member who's sitting on a board. >> And I think most boards, you know, they know that this is a conversation that that needs to take place. Most boards are stretching out and doing more than they should. They're taking on certain leadership functions. if if someone's kind of on their way out or burning out or something like this that it's another piece of the agenda item conversation that needs to take place. It's not quite where's our funding coming from. It's not quite, you know, have we uh hit every deadline for what we're doing, but it is a part of the governance responsibilities. You know, I think of my aunt who was like, "Yeah, we do need to be talking about that. You're so right." You know, you know it when you you know that it needs to be done and it would be so freeing and opening for the board to keep doing what it's doing and for volunteers to do the things that they enjoy that at least from where I sit you know uh with third sector companies the selling is you know you it sells itself you know it's it's just the emptiness of not having prepared for it >> point out yeah Yeah. Um Joan, it seems to me that there's some logistics with this and I'd love to know uh with your illustrious career and the placements that you've seen. Does this conversation start with like an HR community uh committee or executive committee or is it opened up to everybody or like what what's the organic maybe it's not organic is not the right word but what's the structured process whereby these decisions get put forward or does it go to the full board immediately and then it gets hashed out there? It depends um on the organization and how they're structured and how active. Very often when an organization comes to us for an interim executive director or interim CEO position, it's the board chair or the executive committee that have sort of been tasked with figuring out how the organization's going to handle this leadership transition. So they come to us very often in exploration mode where I found you at 2 am in the morning when I was, you know, looking on my phone and I just wonder what can you tell me about this? We don't know anything about interim leadership. And a lot of my job is sort of talking them through the reasons not to hire an interim that they have in their head. The sort of cons without thinking so much about the pros. Um >> many of them are corporate leaders. That's how they come to board leadership. >> Sure. And so their experience is often rooted in what interimship looks like at the corporate level. And that is a very different animal than what we see in the nonprofit world. We recently looked at an article where someone was saying why corporations should never hire an interim. And part of their reasoning was they're so expensive. And it gave the quote of corporate interims are often charging between 50 and $100,000 per month. >> And I'm like, where where are those jobs? [laughter] Because many of us would find those jobs. >> Yeah. >> And wow, >> in the nonprofit world, it's such a different story. But we do sometimes have to sell the board on the fact that yes, you can't. money is not should not be the deterrent here from getting the leadership that you need. So a lot of my job is sort of combating myths >> around interim leadership and then it often goes to the full board for um ratification that yes we will hire an interim. >> Let me ask you this. Is it appropriate or does this ever happen where a leader themselves comes back to you or comes towards you and says, "I'm going to make this decision um but I think our our team needs help." Does that ever happen? >> Yes. >> And is that okay? because I know the board is technically responsible for the the employment of the the chief executive officer, but if you don't know about this, you know, it seems like that's the responsible thing to do. Or is it? >> Oh, I think it's a very responsible thing to do. And we're the outgoing CEO is not the one doing the hiring. they are very often the scout sort of looking for options and that's usually the language that they use when they contact us um is that I want to present options for my board. I don't want them to panic. I want them to know that there's a good road ahead. >> Wow. I love that. And I've never heard anyone articulate it like that. I think that's brilliant because that's got to just lower the temperature of the room immediately. um when somebody can can make the job of the board easier, right? I mean, Erin, does that make sense to you? >> Yeah, absolutely. And you know I'm always kind of in our marketing hypothesis trying to figure out who is coming to third sector company who's thinking about interim leadership that isn't somebody already in the club you know and and it it is the thoughtful executive that is planning ahead or is thinking okay what happens if I'm not here um and I always think that you can provide the right keyword tools or you can provide the right guides um and that sometimes is enough just to add it into the conversation of a board agenda item. But, you know, we we then really have to make our case that it takes a person to really operationalize or drive uh the succession plan into action. And and that's where we as a training academy as well through interim executives academy can say well you know actually we know 800 people spread out across the country who are trained to do this and who are interested in leading through transition in a short-term basis. Um, and so that's kind of the two-pronged approach is, you know, you you are educating that this this kind of transition science and management takes place. >> But then you really do have to connect the dots that there are people who are really good at this and they probably don't already sit on your board and they probably aren't just on your staff already with all the roles and responsibilities they already hold. So, we're both trying to pitch the science and the community of trained professionals who have the skills and the emotional intelligence to work through what is a very specific and difficult time in the nonprofit's life cycle, leadership life cycle, if you will. >> So, then let's have you walk us through that. I love the way you phrase that. Um, a lot of boards they might only meet quarterly or once a month. How long should we be thinking about this? Is it like a, you know, attend a meeting or have a discussion and boom boom, you're done, or is this going to be something that we need to really be um, working on for a while, whether it's a crisis or not? I'm wondering what the two of you have seen because it I asked this question because it's such a new concept for so many people. Yeah, I think uh what I would recommend is that you know there are you have to kind of tap into the workforce. You have to tap into the knowledge base of interim leadership that already exists around the country and in different local you know regional capacities. And I mean really when it comes to if you want to learn more about this a board leader should really come and kind of audit interim executives academy. you know, we have uh three open introductions to our academy in September and throughout the year. And even though those are sort of designed for people who are looking to join the academy, who are nonprofit professionals or consultants who are interested in this line of work, that's a great opportunity for a board or a couple board members three different times in September and again throughout the year to kind of sit in and learn how we talk about it and learn uh what our methods and our processes are. Uh that should in my my estimation that should be enough to kind of generate some conversations and some thoughts around this uh without you know making a big sign up and a big cohort learning module for over a year and trying to get everybody on the same page. >> Well, Jones got me coming in um in uh October, I believe, um for some training because I I just think it's a fascinating thing, Joan. It's it seems like it's cultural, it's emotional, there's language, um understanding the tasks. I mean, they're not just holding the keys and and keeping the lights on, right? That's a really important part of educating folks about interim leadership that this is a uh in best case scenario a trained, experienced, competent leader that isn't just going to keep the lights on bringing the mail as we often say, but is going to help the organization prepare for its next leader. A a successful interim engagement to me is measured by the fact that the organization makes a good next hire, that they've attracted good candidates, they've hired someone wonderful, and they retain them. Then the interims done their job of saying, "How do we get from point A to point B, which is an organization that's in great alignment and ready for the next leader?" That's what an interim is there to do. And um when it works well, and it usually does, it's an amazing thing for an organization. >> Yeah. It it seems like you're asking that interim to come in um and do almost like forensic work to look at what things are going on. And is that is that true or is that just something that I picked up from you um over our different chats? >> I think that's really true. And the depth of that depends on the organization and the situation they're in at the moment. But we believe every interim engagement should start with an assessment >> which helps everyone get on the same page like where are we really >> because then we know what things we need to do to get prepared for this next leader. So yes, forensics often has a hint of criminality around it and not that but it is that idea of understanding do we have gaps? Do we have needs um in things as simple as are our policies all in order? Do we have good HR records? Just the kind of things that really qualified candidates for the permanent role are going to want to know about. >> It's interesting. I I'm just thinking about, you know, we started this conversation about how emotional it is and especially if you've had um a legacy leader, a founder, somebody who's kind of, dare I say, bullied their way through the decades and they're a force of character. Um I can see where there's been there's probably along the the road in that journey some hesitancy to speak truth to power. But with an interim, I would imagine if they're going in and doing that assessment, there's an opportunity maybe for the the folks around that organization throughout the community and even in internally, the staff to be more transparent, to be more honest. I mean, is is that ever something that you see? >> Absolutely. It's one of the great benefits of an outsider coming into the interim role as opposed to a board member or a staff member because sometimes the things that need to come forward sort of fall back on the board or on staff members. And this is a way to with compassion and empathy and respect to bring forward some things that we might want to shift the direction before we bring someone new on. And it really speaks to the term that we hear so often where we've always done it that way >> and a good interim can help shift that conversation to but how do we want to do it going forward, >> right? Yeah, that's an amazing thing. Well, we don't have a lot of time left and this is like um I could talk for such a long time about this because I'm fascinated by this work and and just this this approach to leadership and what we need to be thinking about. Erin, I'm going to ask you this question first and that is like where do you see the future of of this uh concept of interim leadership and when and how will we know that this is working? >> Yeah, I think there is there there's that old saying, you know, you know it when you see it. Um I think I know where that that originally stems from uh in a court case a judgment. But uh when you see it in action and you see it working um that's when you know more opportunities for interim leadership and interim engagements will happen. But, you know, a lot of us uh I think anyone who's involved in a nonprofit uh service at any level, whether you're a volunteer, you're on the board, you're on the staff, we've all kind of experienced, I know I have when I worked uh in volunteered for nonprofits, when someone's gone, when when a leader is away, there is just a lack of direction. There's a lack of purpose. There's morale can really fall down. And that's not fun because and we're not like Joan brought up earlier, we're not corporate uh entity where everyone has this clear chain of command that or organizational chart to say what we're going to be doing in these situations. It's volunteers using their time and their their their passion. And so when that leader is is not there, I think it really, you know, we can talk about the interim science, we talk about the role uh an interim plays, but it is about connecting an organization with the right person on a short-term basis. Someone on the inside knows everything that's going on, board member or staff, but they're already stretched out. they're already feeling the same sort of um maybe lack of lack of certainty that everyone else is feeling in the organization. So to come in and have a right person who is able to lead in those moments uh for 6 to9 months or whatever it might be that's when I think people in boards and organizations will know it when they know more interrums when they see them. So, I think that's why I also think >> the the invite to one of our introductions at the academy where a bunch of nonprofit professionals will be getting together to learn more about uh the academy. That's a great opportunity for anybody volunteer, staff, board uh in the nonprofit sector to come see it in action. >> Right. It's such an interesting thing, Joan, because it's uh when I talk with you, it's so logical and I'm like, "Yeah, I get it." But I can see there's like such a huge gap between getting it and then putting it into practice. And so um the future seems to me like it's only only going up, right? >> Yeah. I think we'll know that we've been successful when we start to see large national organizations make interim part of their work. Make it the norm, not the exception, as churches have done. And when we see funders start to ask organizations about their succession plan and support interim leadership, that that will be success to me. >> Yeah, I love it. Well, as always, time with uh with you all goes by far too quickly. Um Erin, I'm going to challenge you to say you're going to be forever the most popular person at family Thanksgiving dinners now that your aunt knows that [laughter] you have this connection point. I mean, you're gonna have to get yourself back to the States for Thanksgiving, but she might be putting you on Zoom supervisor. >> It crossed my mind that I wasn't going to overshare too many details about her organization, and maybe this uh this this link I'm not going to be sending to her, but hopefully there's more good work still to be done around kitchen tables. Yeah. >> No, I love it. Yeah. I I think all of us in the nonprofit sector can can relate to disclosing what we do and then people just glom on to you, you know, and and just like, can I pick your brain? Can I pick your brain? But anyway, it's been fun to pick both of your brains today. Really amazing. Aaron Roden Biker, he is coming to us today from Copenhagen and uh it has been just a joy to have his wisdom along with the amazing Joan Brown. We always love John when you get to come on and share your thoughts and your leadership with us. It's a fascinating topic and one that we really need to dig in uh to. I always say that this concept of leadership and transition is really one of my top three to five issues that I see across the nonprofit sector. Um and I would say it's even more important than fundraising right now. I know. I can't believe I said that. But because of changes in demography, um this is something that your organization can really get ahead on or not. And it's going to be perilous if uh as Joan says, everyone leaves. [laughter] So lean into that. It's a little scary, but it's just been a joy to have both of you on. Um we have these amazing conversations because we have amazing partners. One of them is Third Sector Company and the others include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Staffing Boutique, your part-time controller, JMT Consulting, and Inuit QuickBooks. These are the folks that are with us day in and day out. As we leave each episode of the nonprofit show, we leave with this message and it goes like this. To stay well so you can do well. >> [music]