Your Nonprofit Board’s Six-Hour Retreat Won’t Fix This

Hey, welcome back everybody. It's another episode of the nonprofit show. One of my all-time faves, Jeffrey Wilcox, has graced us with his presence. My friend, where are you coming to us from today? >> Costa Mesa, California. >> Wow. So, you're there giving a speech um that just when you told me about what the topic was, I want to jump on a plane and come watch it. I mean, really interesting stuff that you do. Um, and you're such a great thought leader. But today, we got to back the bus up and talk about strategic planning, transform transformative planning. I can't even say it. A new way to look at things. I'm really excited, Jeffrey, to get you on board with this. What an interesting conversation. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, really, really interesting. Hey, you know, we get to have these interesting conversations because we have amazing partners and they include Bloomerang American Nonprofit Academy, Staffing Boutique, JMT Consulting, of course, our friends at Third Sector Company, your part-time controller, and Martis, the newest member of our sponsorship family. I'm Julia C. Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. And as I mentioned, Jeffreyel R. Wilcox, not a lot of pressure, huh, my friend? Um, as I'm like, what are my faves? What are the thought leaders? But I I'm always captivated by the things that you say, the things that you spark. Even just in the green room today, you said something that just like blew my mind wide open. So, let's start with what the third sector is and then what is the third sector company do because this is a really interesting topic. Well, thanks Julia and third sector actually as a name comes from the British Commonwealth. There is the private sector, the public sector and the third sector. So the idea of the name really is a worldwide sense that there is another segment of society that is trying to make society better and is absolutely intrinsic to a society's infrastructure. That's the name. Now here's what we do. For the past 25 years, we have helped organizations build a bridge between their prideful past and through interim leadership and through succession planning and through training create a hopeful future. And I'll tell you that looks different for every organization. But I built this company, Julia, because there was such a lack of succession planning going on in nonprofits that we had to create some ways for for well-meaning people to build a bridge between what they were founded to do, what they're currently doing, and what they need to do. And that is a science that is a business, and that's a a core of professionals to steward people to higher ground in their service to others. Well, it's really interesting to me and and Jeffrey, we talk about this a lot privately, you and I, and and I've talked about this privately with your team members, and that is when I think about like the top 10 issues for the nonprofit sector. Um, one of them is this change in leadership due to demographics, an aging leadership society. And we have all of these folks founders, CEOs, seuite members that are retiring out and paralyzing organizations if they haven't planned for this. So this concept of the interim leadership to me is one of the biggest opportunities and misses at the same time because if you don't understand this and you haven't witnessed it in your community, you're going to be like, "What? what what does this mean? What do they do? You know, and so I'm fascinated by this topic of leadership in this really odd time, right? Because this is a demographic issue. This isn't a choice. This is just strictly an aging population and and moving through how we we lead our our third sector, if you will. So, part and parcel to this is planning and understanding the future. Um but when we think about interim leadership and planning and strategic planning, you have some different thoughts on this. Help us understand what modern strategic planning might look like. >> Well, Julie, if we think about the environment we're in right now, I hope most people would agree the strategic plans that were written immediately before COVID practically became absolutely impossible to try and pursue. And as we've come off COVID, as we've looked at um some of the things that have happened in policymaking at all levels around the country right now and how nonprofits are impacted by public funding, public opinion, and public policy, the idea that a strategic plan can be a Saturday afternoon at a country club with a large lunch, a couple of breaks, and by three o'clock this smoke goes up and we've figured out what we're going to do for the next three years is pretty naive. >> Yeah. And yet, my friend, I can tell you I am still being contacted by boards who are like, "Can you come lead a six-hour retreat to figure out what we're going to do for six years?" It's like, really? >> And so, you know, the thing we've learned through intram management is that organizations that contemplate about what's next have to be very thoughtful about what h how do we begin with the end in mind? because we want to hire leaders that will be able to steward us to where we want to go. And if we haven't figured that out, the chances are we're not going to hire the right leader to get us there. >> Part of interim leadership, which I think is something that is absolutely misunderstood, is our role is even though interim leaders are hired to fill vacancies, our role is to lower executive attrition. Because it's not just that executives are aging. We also are in an environment today where the career path of an executive is much shorter than it used to be at any age. >> Yeah. >> So, we've got to create environments where people want to go to work, where people want to be of service, and they want to stay. >> Right. You know, you mentioned something in the green room that I thought was fascinating. Um, and you'd actually written this in a in an email to me about why don't organizations define what success looks like. >> So often we just we are like more focused on task management. You know, how do we get through the day? How do we get through the month? How do we get through the year? You know, a really limited viewpoint as opposed to what is success. And I that kind of shook me to the core because I witnessed to you in the in the green room. I see that with myself, you know, stepping back and saying, "What is my success versus what are my tasks?" Wow. Hair on fire moment, Jeffrey, because those are two very different things. >> They are. And and we have trained our interims to help um light a match. Um so a lot of hair goes on fire in organizations across the country. And and and quite frankly, Julia, the first thing we have to do is we have to change the narrative. >> Strategic planning is is an antiquated term. >> What we really are talking about now is success planning. How does an organization begin to think about what is success or how they're going to pursue success? And I have to tell you and I'll briefly say there are five significant differences that we teach our intrams between strategic planning and success planning. Here they are if you want me to rattle them off. >> Yeah. Yeah. I need to I need to know this. >> So number one, we have to move from understanding the functions of our organization to the forces of our success. And what that means is we stop arranging our strategic plans based on the functions of a nonprofit corporation and we look at the driving forces that will either lead us to or from success. And I'll give you a couple of examples of that. Yeah, >> success plans are are more about not we're going to have partners. It's talking about what's our role in the community's ecosystem. It is one force is our ability to advocate for policy because we are so heavily publicly funded that we have to understand appropriately as a 501c3 how we can push the limit because those dollars are so dependent on what we do. We're moving from functionality to the forces of success. But wait, there's more. You move a plan that is somewhat aspirational like we need to raise more money to achievement. We need to lift 15,000 people out of poverty and we're going to do that not by ourselves but by being a community leader and getting it done. It's moving from being a an infrastructure to an impact organization. How do we create impact? From fundraising to financing and from engaging people to building equity. It's it's the driving forces. It's the achievements we want to see. It's how we're going to create impact in the lives of the community and the community. Moving from fundraising to financing and having built equity with all the stakeholders in a community, that is a success plan. Have none of those things, I can guarantee you, you have no success. >> Okay. So, again, second hair on fire moment of the day. And I don't have a lot of high a lot of hair to give up. Uh, I'm shocked by your comments because I feel Jeffrey, this is a heavy lift for a board who's thinking, you know, they probably served on other boards. They've probably done that country club Saturday. You know, they think that it's going to just this is what we do. Those five points, any one of those five points, um, is is going to kind of blow some minds, right? It's a new way of thinking about it. And we're talking about organizational planning and we're talking about refocusing how we think about things. Is this reasonable to think that an interim can bring this about or is it because it's a new person you can bring it about? Do you know what I mean? Like sometimes if you have the same people at the table, it's really hard to get everybody to think in a new way. or is the magic part of this is that you've got a new voice and so people are hearing things differently. >> Part of the magic is the questions you ask reasonable and smart people not what you try and tell them. >> Okay. Strategic planning today in my and now we're going to call success planning consultation is based on are on are we asking the right questions in the right way to the right people. >> And as consultants in planning if we're not asking the right questions to the right people in the right way we're not going to get the answers that we want >> right >> all of this requires buyin. It's a buyin to say we live in a dynamic environment. We are trying to u navigate choppy water. How do we do that together? And I will also tell you it it it asks the questions of maybe we need to restructure so that these ideas aren't h something that's held in a retreat. These are ideas that mobilize the way in which we think and operate. So when I hear you say that, I feel like a lot of times the the the preuncterary strategic plan versus the success plan, you meet, you think, you write the stuff down and then you kind of measure yourself at the end of the year or four Q4 and there's nothing you can do. You've either been successful or you failed versus what I hear you saying is like it seems like this is a continual discussion. You're refining it. You're you're addressing it. You're not just beginning of the year, end of the year. Is that is that fair to say? >> That is very fair to say. And I will go out on a limb to say my lived experience in this is many nonprofits think of planning as a project. When the plan is done, the project is over. And it really is it really is an organizational process >> because how in the world can you navigate a ship without a compass in your hand, right? And goodness knows the magnetic forces that drive that compass may not be the same ones as you get out of the middle of the sea to you know drive that metaphor to a to a point. But the fact is what we need to do is talk about not what we not only what we've achieved but what we've learned. organizations that are saying we're a learning organization to take on complex problems in society are constantly saying okay what is our experience teaching us and then we don't sit on that. >> Right. Right. It's an interesting thing because um [snorts] it sounds to me like you started off with the board because the board is working with the interim leader, interim decisions, you know, final placement, but you have a team that you're leading whether it's five people or 500 that also have to be re-educated, right? Or re resparked in a new way. Is is that fair to say? >> It's totally fair to say. And when organizations are open to looking at transitional management, let's get a rid of the I word. Interim goes back to an era when we were in first grade and we thought about a substitute teacher walking in the room. Intra leadership today is someone who is coming into organizations to help provide transformational management to good people who want to see good things happen in their community. >> And I for heaven's sakes I hope there are some people who say keeping doing what we've always done is kind of a stupid thing for us to do in today's environment. How can we find someone to help us break the cycle >> so that we can get on a new course with a new leader to be successful? And that requires someone who's been trained and is willing to ask tough questions. >> Yeah. is willing to say, you know what, is it time to merge with another organization in the community before hiring another executive because the funding for this organization is going to paralyze your ability where if you could leverage it with another organization, you probably could help far more. Now, what are you in this for? Preservation or or real change in a community? >> Yeah. And it takes an intram to ask those kinds of questions with a certain type of tough love that that we are all stewards of mission. And in standing up to that duty, sometimes steward of mission means we have to make some tough calls so the mission does not become paralyzed. That's what an interim does. Mhm. >> Well, and I think that the beauty of this, Jeffrey, like one of the added benefits is that [snorts] it's the interim doesn't bring their ego to some of these questions because they're not they know that this is not going to be a permanent job. They they're not answering that question like, "Oh my gosh, will I lose my job or will I you know, who's going to be getting my salary?" Right? I mean, it's it's if you think about it, asking those tough questions is a lot easier for that interim person to be to be presenting them. A lot of times they've never even been thought about. Right. >> That's right. And and the planning piece that we're talking about today is the result of some earned trust. An interim has to get some buy in to we're on a journey to figure out what's the best next step for our organization. And that doesn't say like we'll have a retreat and and do a plan like I've just outlined to you today. >> It is we now understand we have to get first of all a sense of what's our shared reality. What's our data? What's our truth? >> In the old days we called that a needs assessment. what I call it today is truthtelling [laughter] >> because that's what it is. >> Yeah. >> So, so the question is how do we work with the board of directors? How do we work with diverse people to say this is apparently our truth? >> And it may be painful because it collides with your perception. >> Yeah. >> So this planning process I'm talking about is an endpoint. It is not a starting point. The starting point is what is our shared truth? Yeah. >> Our second standing point then is what do we do with this shared truth? And hopefully among the choices will be we're going to have to plan differently. But other choices may be we're also going to have to operate differently. We're going to have to have we're going to have to define governance differently. >> Right. >> Wow. Now there's a pain point. >> Yeah. or we're going to have to um reorganize ourselves from silos and actually think about ourselves differently in how we serve the community. But until you have a basis of shared truth, this idea of planning has no basis other than someone from the outside came in and says they have, you know, drank the water from the promised land and we should all start drinking. That doesn't work, >> right? Okay. So, I'm thinking about this so often in my career as, you know, leading uh serving on boards and leading in boards. Um, these are discussions that the board has, but listening to you this morning, I'm really thinking that it almost seems like this needs to start with the organization because they're going to have the knowledge to to understand what some of the actual challenges are and opportunities. Is that fair to say? or do we we we start with the board and we just go through these processes and then it we we push it out and report out to our teams. I mean where does this go because it's ultimately going to be the responsibility of the staff to lead this through. >> So you raise a very good point and it begins again with buying. Number one, when we work with boards about uh about working with an interim and what we teach in our academy is interim leadership or what we'll call transitional leadership should use some profound processes. You do not want to walk in and just adopt the structure that's there. >> Okay, >> we have something called a transition team. And a transition team is getting representatives of the key stakeholder groups of the organization including the board to come together and say how do we want to work together for this organization to move from what it was to what it can be. And what happens is the the interim executive director is doing very little reporting to the board. What's coming on is it's the voices from the transition team from within that are coming and saying we've really talked about this from our unique vantage points which has included the board which has included some committee members upcoming board members maybe some major donors but it's a transition team that has really thoughtfully looked at an organization and came forward and said these are some of our recommendations for the board to consider. It's a different ballgame when it's coming from within than someone from the outside, which would be a consultant, which interrs, >> right? >> They have facilitated internal navigation tools. So, the board has a compass to figure out where it wants to go. The board has to, Julia approve the process and then set back and let the process work so the process can come to them with the recommendations of where we should go. >> Yeah. Wow. I love that approach because that to me is just brilliant. It it speaks to what you said earlier that you're looking for a solution and leadership in transition that's going to be more sustainable. And if you have all that thought and you have that movement behind those decisions, it's got to make a huge difference. It does because let's the difference between a transitional leader and their successor is the transitional leader is building the runway for the successor to take off. >> And when you have built this this transitional mindset, this evolutionary mindset, that's part of your legacy. These people will continue working with one another. they will want to pursue that success that they have pictured under transitional leadership. >> It's a big thing for a lot of people who've been in nonprofits for a long time to realize you cannot as an interim run the organization like you always did. You are the runway. You are not the jet. >> Right? And I think that's fascinating because um again it goes back to ego and you know time served. If you've if you've come into an organization at any level and you've married yourself to it and you believe in the mission and you want to be a champion, um sometimes making those changes is really hard because you might have to admit you were wrong or you don't have all the answers that or that it's a new dawn, right? It's kind of an interesting combination, Jeffrey, of the ego and the person to the whole of of what this organization is trying to do. >> The joy in transitional leadership is the epiphany that you create in the minds of other people. >> And you know what? I I personally, this is why I'm, you know, this I'm doing exactly what I think I was cut out to do. When I hear that your hair is on fire, Julia, that's the biggest compliment. It really is. >> I I love working with organizations that have done the same thing for so many years. >> They have wanted to do something differently, but they've stood in their own way of getting it done. And then the beauty is something happens and years later they'll say, "I can't believe what a pivot we took and I can't believe where we are today." That is the ultimate compliment in this work. Yeah, you know, we don't have a lot of time left with you and I want to talk about this interim leader coming in being strategic, being educated about what has to happen, building trust, getting people on board. The transitional team is fascinating. It's not just the board, but how [snorts] we're bringing the community along. I got to believe and I've asked you this kind of before um but if you're from a community where this has never been done even interim leadership is a is a new concept how hard is this and how much time should we say we're going to invest in this like how do interim leaders come back out to everybody and say this isn't a Saturday afternoon at a country club this is going to be what three months, six months, 12. I mean, how do we articulate and frame that up? Because this isn't a oneshot deal. >> It's not. It is truly the word capacity building in action here. You're building the capacity of an organization to want to thoughtfully evolve >> and and that's where transitional leadership can come in. So, so number one, an interim leader never introduces themselves. They are introduced by the leadership of the organization that they have made a conscious effort and they've made a conscious decision to have a thoughtful evolutionary process in the organization's ability to serve the community. We teach our interims do not introduce yourself to the community. This is a stand taken by a not forprofit that they are ready to have intentional pivot in their service to others. >> Wow. And that pivot is then going to include about a 9 to 14month process >> that's going to focus on the following things. And we hope that one of the things that is in that list is that we're going to go through a thoughtful planning process about what we want to be, what we need to be, and what we can be to influence the quality of life in this community. And I can tell you that's something an interim can't say. But when the leadership comes forward and say, "We're going to be very serious about what we need to be for this community and we're choosing how we're going to do it," people listen. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's so much fear in a transition time, right? [snorts] Especially if you have a beloved founder or a CEO that served decades. I mean, it's such a for the community, there's always that, well, I don't know if they'll be able to get somebody as good as, you know, she was or he was. Right. >> That's right. It's like such an interesting aspect that that kind of loops everybody in. >> That's right. >> And causes another level of stress. >> And that has to be um intentional. Julia, I I mentioned that that one of the things we teach in the interim executives academy is that our transitional leaders need to put together a transition team. Another thing that we highly advocate for is you need to have community listening sessions >> and the leadership of the organization there needs to be there to listen and they also need to stand in front of the folks who come to community listening sessions and state what I just did. We're in the process of really wanting to become the next generation of of of leadership for the community and we need to listen to you in order to get there. Anybody who thinks that in that interim executive management is an internal focused process is wrong. >> Okay. >> You we are we are leading community-based organizations and as interim leaders we have a responsibility to make sure that we are building and keeping intact and edifying that community base. It's interesting because, you know, that whole thing about what you brought up about the substitute teacher and what you can get away with and how they're just a temporary um that really flips this notion of interim leadership on its head. >> It does. And that that notion has to be flipped with the board the moment they're thinking about an interim. If you're look if you are looking for a a substitute teacher, you're looking for someone to bring in the paper and water the plants until somebody comes along or you're or you're hiring a housesitter, >> you are doing such an injustice with precious resources to take your organization to its next chapter of service. There's a difference between hiring a next leader and standing up and saying, "We're going to pursue a next chapter." and interim leadership begs that question. >> Yeah. Fascinating. Well, if you're in Southern California today and you're watching this and you have the ability to get in front of the genius that we call Jeffrey Wilcox, um you need to do that because I never have enough time with you on the nonprofit show. I always want to keep the conversation going. Um, it's an absolutely fascinating way to look at how I believe at this point in time in the history of our nation and nonprofits, this is real. This is happening. We have to be looking at transformational change. Um, for so many reasons. First and foremost, it's the demographics. It's it's happening right now. So, you can't just hope, you know, that when change happens, you can deal with it. You've got to get in front of it. Um, check out Jeffrey R. Wilcox. He is the president, chief learning curator at third sector company. You can get behind a lot of their thought leadership on their website at third sector company.com. They have a lot of uh really interesting research that they've conducted. It's not paywalled, so you don't have to be a member of their, you know, uh, client base. you can actually get access to some of the really interesting research um that talks about interim leadership and what what's going on. Um I think it's just truly Jeffrey one of the biggest topics in our sector that we must be talking about and um and we're not I mean the nonprofit show is but we need more folks out there talking about this. um you know, we get to talk about these things and we have no pressure from our sponsors. We get to choose what we're going to talk about and and it that's really amazing not to have editorial pressure from our sponsors. Um and and that's something that's incredibly incredibly value valuable and I want to point that out. Um, and those partners of ours include Bloomerang American Nonprofit Academy, Staffing Boutique, JMT Consulting, of course, our friends over at Third Sector Company, your part-time controller, and Martis, um, the newest member of our sponsorship family. Jeffrey, you always give me so much to think about and then I almost like want to think about it all day and then come back to you at the end of the day and ask for refining you my refined questions because it's fascinating stuff. >> Thank you. Well, Julia, we're starting our fall interim academy in October. Um Okay. We've we've trained 850 nonprofit people in 47 states. So, come and check us out if you'd like to learn how to do this. Yeah, it's uh I'm actually going to be part of that cohort. Um I'm really excited to to see what I can learn and um what it looks like and what the ecosystem looks like because it's just I think riveting work. I really really do. Um, everybody, we have a fascinating cadre of people that we talk to and so much of this ends with being in a healthy mindset, you know, looking at things in a different and new way as we've talked with Jeffrey today. And so, the way we end our show today is really profound because we leave with a message that says stay well so you can do well. >> [music]