Video summary
Dr. Jonathan Dombrowski challenges the common, narrow definition of technology that focuses solely on modern gadgets like smartphones and computers by introducing a broader anthropological perspective rooted in archaeology. He argues against "recency bias," which leads people to view only recent inventions as technological advancements, whereas an anthropologist considers tools spanning millennia. In this expanded framework, technology encompasses not just physical objects external to the human body but also the specific knowledge required to create and use them. This definition extends far beyond industrial artifacts to include fundamental elements of survival such as fire, which is considered a tool only when intentionally used for a purpose like cooking rather than occurring naturally through lightning strikes.
The conversation further explores how non-material aspects of life qualify as technology under this lens, including language, social organization, and even the domestication of animals. Dr. Dombrowski posits that companion animals like dogs are biological tools fashioned by humans to solve specific problems such as loneliness or hunting needs, making them a form of technology in their own right. Similarly, culture itself is treated as a technological system; it consists of agreed-upon ideas and social structures—whether hierarchical or decentralized—that function as tools for solving collective human challenges. This view suggests that even abstract concepts like government forms or linguistic symbols are tangible solutions to communication problems because they serve real functions within society.
A critical distinction is drawn between modern Western science, which relies on institutionalized methods from the Enlightenment era, and indigenous knowledge systems that have existed long before formal science was established. Dr. Dombrowski emphasizes that just because a technology emerges from Western scientific institutions does not make it superior or more valid than other ways of knowing derived from indigenous cultures. He advocates for recognizing these diverse epistemologies as legitimate pathways to understanding the world, noting that many ancient practices were highly sophisticated adaptations to specific environmental conditions rather than primitive failures.
To illustrate this depth of inquiry, Dr. Dombrowski shares his personal fascination with archaeological fishing nets found in desert environments and the movement of parrots from Mesoamerica into Chaco Canyon around 1050 AD. These examples highlight how technology is deeply intertwined with specific environmental variables and cultural contexts that triggered precise human responses over time. Ultimately, he encourages listeners to adopt a long-term view when evaluating technology, looking past the latest software updates or chip releases to understand what societal goals these tools serve and which practices will endure as humanity continues to navigate its challenges across generations.
Read the full video transcript
[music]
>> Welcome to the Daily Tech News Show
weekend edition gratefully provided to
you by supporters of the show. On the
weekend we go into topics into a little
bit more depth. [music] I'm Dr. Nikki
the science correspondent for DTNS and I
am here with a very special guest to
talk about the anthropology of tech. So
welcome to the show Dr. Jonathan
Dombrowski
full disclosure also my partner but good
to have you here.
>> It's good to be here. Thank you for
having me Nikki.
>> Of course so we're going to talk about
the anthropology of technology.
Would you like to remind the listeners
how this topic came about?
>> Sure. Yeah. So
at
a NerdTacular there was a whole panel
called science versus technology and
>> That I was on.
>> That that Nikki was on and I was lucky
enough to tag along to NerdTacular this
year.
And so
you know, I heard all what we were
having discussions all about what
technology is what science is
and I kept putting my anthropology hat
on and I think you got
probably tired of
talking to me about about what
anthropology has to say about technology
and so you're like well we'll just talk
about it in a segment later and so this
is how this came about.
>> Something [laughter] like that.
>> Well Tom also thought it was cool so we
made it all the way here.
Yeah. So if you didn't realize John is a
professor and anthropologist. And I
guess I'll just dive straight in and ask
you how would you define tech as an
anthropologist? Clearly it's different
than how the casual iPhone user defines
tech.
>> Yeah. I think we have this kind of like
tendency to think about technology as we
you know, we use it today. We have a
what what a archaeologist might call
recency bias
and so when we think about technology
today we think about like the latest
iPhone or the latest computer or
something like that. Right? We think
about computers a lot or maybe we think
about artificial intelligence.
Um but when an anthropologist and
specifically an archaeologist thinks
about technology, we use a much broader
kind of perspective to think about that
that spans millennia maybe.
Um and so I think it's a really useful
kind of thing to think about. It's a
nice tool, if you will. Um and we'll get
into these definitions to just for
people to have in their back pocket um
and think about uh
broad broadly.
>> So what is that definition?
>> Yeah, so to me, so I I think uh one of
the things that we we always talk about,
right, is uh um that I'm always kind of
doing it, it's a tendency of mine is I
think about definitions really really
broadly. Uh in science, there's this
kind of like debate versus lumpers
versus splitters. Yeah. Um and so I
think I'm more of a lumper and so and
what that means is um I always think
about a definition when it comes to
definitions that capture like the whole
thing that we're like talking about. And
so for me, what technology is um there's
basically kind of two things um
that it it encompasses tools that humans
use to achieve tasks, right? So actual
things beyond our body um that humans
use outside of our body, not fingernails
or anything like that. And then it's
also the knowledge that they use to
produce those things.
Um and those come together to create
technology.
>> Okay. So when you're thinking about this
in your anthropological context, um is
there kind of a
an earliest technology? Uh
you know, the the iPhone 1 of of
anthropology technology?
>> Yeah, you know, so that this is hotly
debated territory, right? Yeah, sorry.
You know, so I I don't I actually don't
think um that humans we we talked about
this at the Science Verse Tech um
um panel that actually it's not our um,
our closest living, uh, relatives or
ancestors,
um, that we evolved from, uh, chimps and
bonobos, they actually use technology as
well. And so we use that that classic
example of like, um, uh, sticks, using
sticks to get ants out or something like
that.
>> Termites, I think, but yeah.
>> Termites. Um,
and so but other animals use technology
as well. Um, otters have like their
favorite rock, right? And they knock
things like
>> I think we covered on the show the, uh,
the cow that uses, uh, a broom to
scratch her back. So there's so animal
technology, I guess, is is the earlier
form.
>> Yeah. Yeah, so for for humans
>> Yeah, for humans.
>> we think about maybe fire as being one
of the first. And then later we and
that's not like Homo erectus and maybe
even before. The this is constantly
we're getting like the the oldest use of
fire papers that come out and these are
always the big splashy ones.
>> yeah, yeah.
>> Yeah, yeah. And then we also have, um,
Acheulean hand axes, stone tool
technology is probably some of the, you
know, really, uh, when we think about
objects that are being fashioned, um,
are those kinds of things. And, um,
these Acheulean hand axes
are really interesting, really cool
first kind of, you know, portable tool,
um, that we know of. Um, and Homo
erectus was like likely making those
and, um, we're going to put a link, uh,
to a now defunct, unfortunately, it lost
funding, anthropology magazine called
Sapiens. And there is, um,
um, basically, yeah, look at that.
Acheulean hand axe right there. Um,
and there's a little article that
someone wrote, uh, Stephen Nash, who is
the, uh, I now I think he's the CEO and
president of Archaeology Southwest, a,
um, nonprofit out in Arizona.
>> Okay, so you gave some examples of like
one that's really tangible, so this
literal hand axe that you hold in your
hand. I think people know maybe about
atlatls and like spears and so on as as
technology Um, and fire which is more of
a knowledge almost like yes it can be
something tangible but it's more than
that. Are there other examples of
tech in the anthropological world that
people maybe wouldn't think of
immediately as being considered tech?
>> Yeah, absolutely. You know, so one of
the things that came up in the panel
was you know fire like what if fire
isn't made you know it's just you know
lightning strikes and there's fire is
that is that technology? And so that's
what my definition which was so
important about this was that it's it's
intentional. It's human it's relative to
humans like technology and tools right?
So it's something that is made for a
purpose and so if a human starts a fire
to cook food that is technology right?
If I accidentally burn my house down I
don't know if I would call that fire
technology
unless I was trying to burn my house
down right? So this is we're splitting
hairs but this is all the fun of of
science and and thinking about these
things but other forms of technology
that are really fascinating to think
about are things like animals right? So
like the domestication itself as a form
of technology right? So dogs that's
something that came up that we talked
about in the panel.
>> Okay, so you mentioned dogs as a form of
technology. Can you elaborate on that a
little bit like is our pet dog a
technology or is it only technology when
they're doing a job like a herding dog
or something?
>> Yeah, me personally I mean maybe you'd
have people disagree with me but I think
you know when we think about pets
companion animals is another term you'll
see out there it is a technology right?
We are
fashioning a biological organism to help
fill this role right? That to complete
this job for us of feeling more whole
and not so lonely right? And so that's a
pretty amazing thing when you think of
about tools to solve a problem
and there are there are histories of
companion animals out there Like this is
a whole topic within archaeology
and anthropology. It's a big deal. I
mean, I did you know, we can think about
dogs as like you know, being pack
animals and all this which there's tons
of literature about that too. But the
companion side of of this is really
important. So you know, one of the
things with dogs is we thought you know,
one of the roles that they played
initially is maybe as hunting and
guarding
for for mobile humans. Um
hunter-gatherers kind of early on.
Right? That's why they're the first
domesticated animal that we know of. Um
so that's really important. But how
animals get on the pathway different
pathways to
to domestication
um is a huge and lively area of research
as well. So um I can go more into that.
>> Then biology gets involved, too.
>> Oh, yeah. [laughter] It's it's really
fascinating.
>> Dogs so so you heard it here first. Dogs
are perhaps the most wholesome form of
technology.
>> Yeah.
>> Um you also mentioned
knowledge and culture itself being
considered a form of technology. And I
think this is where it gets a bit
nebulous with maybe the DTNS listeners
who are used to looking at the newest
chip update. So like can you format that
in a in a way for our listeners?
>> Yeah, we think about you know, these
maybe non-tangible things as forms of
technology as well. And again, I'm I'm
not trying to say that every single
anthropologist would agree with this or
archaeologist would agree with this. But
generally
>> They'll write in their comments.
>> Yeah, yeah. There there is debate about
about this kind of stuff. So language
itself as being a form of technology,
right? It's something that's coming out
of our like away from our body that's
being used to serve a purpose to
communicate.
>> It's all a problem.
>> And solve this problem of of we need to
to you know, communicate to one another
about tons of different things. How we
do that and the structure of that
language. There's a whole field of
anthropology or subfield um called
linguistics. And this is
how that one of the big areas of
research there is called we call it
semiotics or meaning-making, right? How
people use words to make meanings that
like these symbols, right? So, this is
and how we achieve different tasks to do
that. This is like the whole game of
anthropology. So, it's it's really quite
fascinating, but there's other things,
too, right? So, when we think about how
we we an archaeologist would call it
kind of um social organization. And
that's just a fancy word for how we
organize ourselves within a society. Are
we hierarchical or are we more
decentralized? There's different ways of
being human, right?
>> That's culture.
>> Yeah, different forms of government um
within that are these these these things
that solve problems.
>> It's a tool, yeah.
>> And it's a tool. And even though it's an
idea and it's not a an actual material
thing, um it's all something that we're
agreeing on and we're treating like it's
real, right? So, it does sort of you
know, it could be counted as a
technology in and of itself. Um I think
it's really important.
>> We had a point that I didn't want to
pass over that that we did kind of
mention a little bit in the science and
tech panel and I'll bring back today is
the kind of difference when when I go on
the show and I talk about tech, um we
format in science and like science is
usually
there's like, you know, a a an
accumulative technology that makes
science and so on. But you uh also
mentioned that there's kind of a
separate component uh especially when
studying uh archaeology, which is held
within indigenous knowledge and that
wouldn't necessarily be considered
science depending. I know that we're
getting difficult with vocabulary here,
but um can you talk about kind of the
tech of indigenous knowledge as well?
>> Sure. Uh and you know, how this kind of
came about was, you know, when we were
thinking about the the science versus
tech kind of panel, we were kind of
joking saying like who's going to win,
right? It's science versus technology.
And one of the things that I said was,
you know, technology has been around a
lot longer. So, it automatically It it
automatically it is before science as we
know it. As we know it.
It so it automatically wins. And when I
say science as we know it, I'm referring
to something very specific. We're going
to get in the weeds, right? So when I'm
saying science, I'm saying science is
like an institution, right? As like some
product coming out of the enlightenment
of like this institutionalized
scientific kind of endeavor, right? And
that's maybe better termed Western
science.
>> Yeah.
>> Um I just the the the kind of point that
I was trying to make and making like
when we were talking a lot was that, you
know, just because our modern technology
usually comes out of this kind of
product of Western scientific knowledge
doesn't automatically make it better,
right? It doesn't automatically mean we
shouldn't prize science necessarily like
that. I'm not saying that science is
bad. I'm I'm a scientist through and
through.
And it is a very good way of knowing
things, but it is just that. It is one
way to know things, right?
You know, researchers call that an
epistemology.
There are other ways to know things,
right? And they don't necessarily have
to be science as we understand it as an
institution today. Or it could share
just maybe certain elements with that.
Or it could be a science as we
understand it, but we wouldn't call it
Western science. And we could put this
under the umbrella of indigenous
knowledge or indigenous science, right?
And so
this is a whole way of saying that there
are are so many ways of being human and
then through time people have used their
culture and technology and knowledge to
produce these tools to solve very
specific problems. And we should not
discount that out of hand. It's it's
there you know, we can understand so
much about being human if we think about
what the the difficulties people were
facing in the past or the joys that they
were facing in the past and how they
navigated those things. archaeology
helps us with that. Um and so I just
wanted to tell the listeners for sure,
you know, just because it's science and
cutting edge today doesn't automatically
make it better. Thinking largely about
things. You know, why did people make
fishing nets at a specific time at a
specific place all of a sudden? You
know, that's what archaeologists kind of
geek out about and these are the things
that we can kind of learn. That was a
long-winded answer.
>> No, no, no, but perfect. So you actually
bring on my next question. I was going
to ask is there a specific piece of
anthropological archaeological tech that
you geek out about?
>> Oh, yeah. So I I I man, so much the the
fishing nets
>> pick one. [laughter]
One or two.
>> fishing and fishing practices and
different strategies. That's kind of my
dissertation work at in the desert. So I
was all thinking about, you know, why do
people fish in the desert, right? Where
like you don't think there's, you know,
water sources are important, but we
don't think that people really, you
know, relying on different fish at
different times and I kind of work to
bust some myths about, you know,
actually people were fishing and why
they might be doing that. So that's one
and how in the environment can kind of
play into how people
>> sorry, but in that case the nets and
maybe lures and things like that would
be the tech.
>> But but also the knowledge, right?
>> Oh, and how to use them, sure.
>> Well, how to use them, but when to use
them and where to use them. So that's
also it. So for me, I was trying to
argue there was actually this kind of
these very specific environmental
variables that lined up, right? That
then triggered the knowledge within a
given society to go, we should start
fishing now. Um and that's all part of
it, right? So that's the the culture
kind of part of this. Um
But other ones, we've talked about
domestication, right? And so I think a
lot about one of my favorite examples of
like, is it a domesticate or is it not?
In the Southwest United States, like
what would the Southwest that what we'd
would call today, so like places like
Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Utah.
In the right in that Four Corners area,
we get parrots that start occurring
there around, let's say, the I don't
know,
um
gosh,
1050s AD 1050s, um
uh in in this place called Chaco Canyon,
there's a lot of parrots, right, that
start coming up and they're not from the
desert, right? They're from Mesoamerica.
>> South America, mhm.
>> People are moving them up, right?
They're not actually moving. People from
Mesoamerica or people from the Southwest
are going to Mesoamerica and bringing
them, and then we find their remains
um at archaeological sites. So,
something that's really fascinating is
like,
what is the technology there with
parrots and their feathers and how
they're being incorporated into
ceremonial and regalia and all these
different symbols. Um so, yeah.
>> mainly the feathers we think?
>> Yeah, it's mainly for feather use, um
that that that that we think. But, there
could be tons of other things. So, this
is where we're getting into issues with
archaeology, but
>> [laughter]
>> yeah.
>> Okay. Um my last question I think is
going to be
you know, do you think having that
broader definition of technology as an
anthropologist affects the way that you
see tech today or that that maybe people
could see tech today?
>> Yeah, I I mean, I think it definitely
does. It definitely colors kind of how I
think about things. I usually
um I love my tech. I just spent I just,
you know, moved into this office and
spent the last like week and a half
setting up my workstation um and all my
computers and things. So, I'm but you
know, I I think I I think about tech on
a way longer time span of like what
What is the thing that we're latching
onto here as like a society and culture
that's going to last, um and where will
that take us? So, I'm not so much, you
know, the latest chip or the latest
software.
>> Oh, that's a good excuse for not
updating your tech. You're like, "Well,
no, it's cultural. It's actually
>> [laughter]
>> What is the thing that we are trying to
achieve as like, say, a society or a
small group um and uh what what will get
carried forward and what won't.
So.
>> Okay.
Any parting comments?
Okay.
Just just think long term, I guess.
[clears throat]
>> [laughter]
>> Drop the bottom out. Whenever you're
thinking about a problem, drop the
bottom out of it.
>> Look at it in a way bigger scale. Yeah,
exactly. Well, John, thanks for coming
on the show. If listeners want to know
more, where can they go find you?
>> You can find me at
jonathandombrosky.com.
>> And you can find me at
nicolackerman.com. I have the same
handle on Blue Sky.
And you may have heard, I've said it a
few times now, that I'm starting a new
show at Technical Tea.
The show is Technical Tea and it's in
the family of DTNS podcast with Huwente
Dao and our new episode is coming up
next month about eponyms. So, look
forward to that and find us at
technicaltea.show.
For more Daily Tech News Show, you can
look up DTNS Show on socials and
dailytechnewshow.com.
Thank you all for supporting the show at
patreon.com/dtns.
[music] We will be back with regular
news on Monday and until then, have a
great [music] weekend.
>> The DTNS [music] family of podcasts.
Helping each other understand.
>> Diamond Club hopes you have enjoyed this
program.
>> [laughter]