You Don’t Get to Correct Everyone (And Shouldn't)

The greatest trick [music] the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. >> I didn't know this was a fight. That's why you're losing. Today we [music] are beginning either to domesticate the devil or else to deny him. He is most [music] powerful when he is denied. >> Welcome to the devil's in the details. The devil may be in the details, but God is on the throne. >> God is on the throne. God is on the throne. Can we have an echo installed on that portion? Like so it echo echo echo. >> Sure. Yeah. >> So I don't know how that's going to sound, but we can try it. >> I'd like to try it because I always want to say it three times. >> Yeah. >> Because it's really about the Lord, not about the devil. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. Well, do you want to introduce what we're talking about? Because we were I was saying, "Oh, hey, let's check what we did on the last part of the series." And you came into the office. You said, "Well, hold on. I have an idea." You were inspired. >> Well, something's bugging me. uh and has bothered me for a while and a recent incident has brought it up which is how do you correct make how do you approach when you when you feel like somebody is doing damage in the church and what what are the guidelines to approaching them and like a year ago you did what is this an Instagram series you did? >> Yeah, it was a series of three posts. Um, it was funny. I I I uh was just on Father Gregory Pine's podcast and was talking about this po. We were talking about his book, but how it coincided with this post. >> His book is >> uh one of his newer books. He had a couple come out recently, but Training the Tongue and Growing Beyond Sons of Speech from Amus Road. Um, and so anyway, I pulled up that post because that's the bulk. It was a series of three, but this was the bulk of, hey, in my experience online dealing with people and um doing things the wrong way when it comes to correction and learning. >> Yeah. >> Um and being convicted and talking to my spiritual director and priests and whoever. >> These are the rules that I go by to help keep myself out of confession basically. Yeah. >> Ensuring that I'm not sinning against someone. Um because fraternal correction is necessary, but there's I think and maybe this is where you're going. I think people take that too um flippantly I guess and they assume that they can correct anyone at any time for any reason. >> Yeah. Anyone at any time for any reason. Yeah. And I mean you we've talked about this idea of what is the most common grave sin or serious sin among believers in the context of Catholic conversation and your conclusion is sins of speech are the most common. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I want to be careful to say abortion is the most common grave >> like you know extremely serious you know. >> Yeah. And maybe for those like just for clarity sake really quick for those who hear that and are just not believing it because obviously abortion is significantly more grave. >> It's a much more grave matter. I I say that this sins of the speech, sins of the tongue, and I think there's something to be said that I've been writing on it for over a year and Father Gregory Pine was at the same time writing on it. God, I think was moving in various different arms. A few more people have been talking about it. >> Um, this is the most prolific sin, meaning because of the advent of social media, there are far more opportunities to commit this sin, and they are committed more often on a daily basis than something like abortion. Not comparing the two, but if you think about Yeah. >> however many Catholics, however many, >> right? Yeah. >> You know, sending and not just online. I mean, let's be frank, >> talking to family members, sending in speech against family members, your neighbors, your co-workers, whatever. So, >> prolific meaning >> the opportunities on a day-to-day basis are endless. >> There's millions of You could commit this sin 30 times in a five hour period throwing out rough numbers versus, you know, there hopefully not any Catholics getting any abortions. But you see what I'm saying? That's that's the difference. >> Yeah. Know, and I I agree with you. When you said it, I thought, you know, that's dead on target. And one of the reasons I got off social media is because I'm I I'm, you know, I used to suffer with the sin of wrath. I'm doesn't mean I it isn't still there underneath or that I have to manage it because I do and when I'm on social media like I don't have issues with wrath off of social media as a norm just as a norm. uh get a little irritated here and there, but I used to be a hotthead. But when I was on social media, uh one of our community members corrected me and got very upset with me over my approach because he thought it was conflicting with what I teach, which he was right. And it really convicted me. It actually damaged our relationship for maybe a year or two, I can't remember. he left the community and then eventually came back and now we work together pretty much all the time every week just about. Um so that was a a great grace but it was a real lesson learned for me. But uh anyway, I what I want to do is I want to deal with like how do you when do you correct and how do you correct and if you correct, you know, why, when, how, all of that. Scripture is I think fairly clear on this >> in a number of places. Um but a year ago you did uh you don't get to correct everyone and you shouldn't. That was the title of the Yeah. >> the the Instagram post, right? Or was it a roll or what do you call it? >> Instagram. Yeah. Post >> a real or whatever. >> And uh this did this go pretty far and wide. >> Yeah. I don't remember that. I mean, at the time, I think it was uh Yeah. I I It's not I don't really care about metrics. It It blew up pretty big. >> Yeah. Pretty big. >> So, you said there's a growing habit among Catholics online and offline correcting everyone they disagree with. Not every battle is yours. Even if Well, >> sorry, the text is out. But here's the problem. Not every battle is yours. >> Okay. >> And even if you're right, that doesn't mean that you're called to speak. >> So, what's the basis upon whether or not you're called to speak? >> I think as you were getting into, there are uh prerequisites or foundational principles that must be adhered to when talking about fraternal correction. >> Sure. >> The biblical principles where you're going, I think, with Matthew, >> Yeah. >> are very clear. >> Yeah. And then I think that in the terms of how the Catholic understanding of virtues add to that foundation in which if you are not following what we're going to uh lay out, yeah, >> then you're actually probably causing more harm. And I've done this this is this comes from as I think I mentioned >> my own struggles with being a devil zealot, you know, as St. Benedict says and overcorrecting and things like that. So anyway, um I don't know where do you want to >> Well, I think I just like to go down the line and you you you shouldn't, you know. >> So, um this as I wrote this series, as much of the things that I post online are are uh my desires to help people avoid the pitfalls that I had fallen into. That's pretty much the baseline background desire for everything that I do. Yeah. [laughter] >> I joke I'm like, I'm the guy who fell on the ice and point it out so you don't fall on the ice. You put the sign up on the edge. Eyes dead eyes. >> Okay. >> So, um, here's a person, it's the post continues. Here's a personal rule. I try to follow a spiritual gut check before stepping into a conversation. Let all that you do be done in love. That's 1 Corinthians 16:14. >> Love. No. So, here's an here's I I can hear uh one of my mad tread friends saying it's loving to correct. >> Yeah. Well, >> it's it's also hard because you have great quotes from like Padre Pio that says sometimes you need a the truth needs to be a cannonball. >> Mh. >> And you know, I I'll talk from my policing background. Sometimes you have to yell at somebody, >> right? >> And cuss at them to get their attention, right? >> None of that's loving, >> right? [laughter] And I'm not arguing against Padre Peio, but I the problem is, you know, I think Catholics turn into Protestants very quickly when we start cherrypicking quotes in scripture to to argue to make the argument for us because I did that. But like until you've read Padre Pio's letters and understand what he struggled with and also understand that that's not church teaching. It's just a quote from a really great saint, right? >> You know what I mean? uh you can't it's it's dangerous to just say well this great saint said this thing therefore I'm going to use that as my justification to behave in a particular way >> right >> you have to fall back on scripture and as I said what the church teaches on virtue >> you know it's interesting love is correct you know part of love is correction I'm just remembering my own memorization of 1 Corinthians 13 but rather than rather than mess it up because it was so many years ago I'll turn to it. Let's just talk about what love is. >> Oh yes. Yes. Actually, I'm glad you're going into this. Go ahead. Yeah. >> If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clinging symbol. And if I have prophetic powers and understand all mysteries and all knowledge and have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have and defend, deliver my body to be burned and have no love, I am nothing. I gain nothing. And here's and now here's a series of love is statements. >> Right. So this this is why I'm excited you said because I was talking to my wife about this yesterday. >> Yeah. >> Because this topic keeps coming up and that was the reading yesterday. >> Okay. >> And I thought w how I believe it was yesterday not to date the show but how brilliant is it that he's saying if you don't have love everything you're doing is if it's Jack it doesn't mean a single thing. You can sacrifice yourself >> right? But if you don't ask, >> you can die a martyr or a martyr in quotes. >> And and guess what? It means nothing. And then Paul was smart enough to say, well, you're going to ask what is love, right? >> And so this next paragraph, I'm going to tell you exactly what it is. >> Right? So here the these are descriptors of love. Uh love is patient. Mhm. >> So that means if I'm going to correct somebody, I'm not going to I'm not going to be quick to pop off at them or or if I have an an instinct, I'm actually going to be slower. And of course in James uh which which is a verse that I've you know test myself against all the time. It says uh be quick to hear meaning quick to listen and understand slow to speak slow to anger. Yeah. So love is patient but to extrapolate it from other Holy Spirit inspired passages meaning patient enough to listen to the other. >> Mhm. >> Patient enough to understand and very slow then to speak and to talk >> to ask that person. I always say if you as soon as you start assuming someone else's intentions, >> you're batting for the other side. You're no longer playing for the for the good. You're playing for the enemy. I I give you an example and I I'm in a conversation with this person right now privately. So I don't you know and I'm following actually what I believe privately but there's there's been more than one criticism of father riper more than the person I'm talking to. There's a lot. You're never going to know who this person, >> right? There's a lot of criticism by Ricker. But one of the things that the criticism is is that he talks to demons and he takes teachings from demons and then repeats those teachings. >> And and again, this is people who who are perpetually online may be trying to pinpoint, but again, there's been more than one person who's made that complaint. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm not trying to draw any attention to anyone any one person. And so now, uh, I used to be a follower of Father Riper, if you will. Uh, I found he's very interesting, although his mannerisms in his public speaking I thought were pretty arrogant. I've met with him privately. He's not at all arrogant. He's very humble, super helpful. Uh, answered every email I've ever sent him. Uh, even when I was, there was a perception I was challenging him, I still got an email back. Mhm. >> Even though I was and I was just saying, "What's your source for that?" You know, whatever. >> Help me understand. >> Help me understand. Yeah. >> So, that's my experience with Riper. So, the the the criticism is he's he's he's talking to demons and he's repeating the teaching. Now, I've listened to enough of Riper to know he's he's actually explained what he means when he's doing that. Now, he doesn't do it every time, >> but he's saying when I'm in an exorcism, demons will talk. And I and I the way I describe it is colloquially, not not verbatim. >> When I say we I was talking to a demon and it said this doesn't mean we were having a conversation. >> It doesn't mean the demon was teaching me anything. It means I'm in an exorcism. I'm dealing with the demon. It says X and then and of course we know that demons do sometimes tell the truth. >> Yeah. So there's I should have brought the book in here. There's a book that's published by Pope Leo the 13th uh instit in Institute I believe. >> Yeah. Which is the one that trains exorcists in the United States. >> Good luck trying to find it. But anyway uh in one of the chapters, Father Bamonte who wrote it, he titled the chapter accidental katakesis and exorcism I believe was the title of the chapter. and he talks about how I don't I actually don't even want to get too far into it. I'd love to have him on to explain it because I think it is important because a lot of people think that well and I because I've struggled with this demons are liars >> right >> so how could they say something in there that is true >> right >> well they can they can >> yeah [laughter] >> you know so and and they can be demanded to say as a norm you know h you know how did you get in or what is your name you know those those are the things that are permitted in the actual record right so regardless >> there's quite a bit of nuance to what is and isn't uh a reality in this sphere and I when I see other people talk by the way I haven't talked about it because I know that I don't know enough about it. I've probably read more than >> these people who are online talking about it and I still haven't said anything because I know that they're just >> so much nuance that you need someone like a vamonte >> or a riper to sit down for like three hours and >> talk talk it through. So, so in this case though, I've been in exor many exorcisms of course and you know I I have been in a situation where the demon was commanded to tell the truth and it told the truth and it said something that I've repeated. The only thing I ever repeat a demon says said out of an exorcism and that was uh when we were dealing with the person the demon the exorcist said how did you get into this victim or whatever and the demon laughed of course and said children are easy. It was one of the most chilling things I've ever said >> I've ever heard. I mean just the way it was said and how evil it was and and you know what the you know what that's actually true. Mhm. >> Children are easy >> to manipulate from an adult. They're easy to manipulate by a demon. Of course, all that. >> Is it wrong for me to repeat what that demon said? No. Who do I repeat it to? Dads. >> Yeah. >> Why? So, they get off their rear ends and be the strong man they're called to be to take care of their families and stop being a wuss, stop being a feminine, start being the man of the the spiritual lead of the house. Because when you're sinning habitually, you're letting the enemy rule your house instead of you. And it's like living in downtown Bessemer, a terrible place with the front door off and you're the one who left it off and you're the one who's going to go to hell because you let your family go to hell, you know? So that's the kind of thing I I would use it for. Riberger does it a lot more because he's in exorcisms all the time. But I've heard him explain it that I'm I'm just I'm simp I'm summarizing what I what came out of the demon's mouth that is that I that I know to be true or that's verifiably true or that's in keeping with church doctrine and and it's just true. Now, are there boundaries to this? Yeah. I mean, I'll give you I'll give you one that's a bad example, right? is the the famous case of Anelise uh Michelle Michelle and she and I've heard a traditionalist and I think problematically so say by the way I'm in that camp so I'm not if you're out there thinking I'm I'm picking on you just relax >> we pick on everyone >> we equally >> so including ourselves right so the the an the demon said he was the one who inspired communion in the hand >> supposedly said that >> right yeah I haven't verified that. But anyway, here's the point. You would never you should never repeat that in the sense of saying definitively, "Oh, that was inspired demonically." By the way, do I think it was? That's another question. We won't go there, but >> I'm pretty sure Cardinal Sarah has had some [laughter] to say about it. >> So, Cardinal Cardinal Orenzy in particular said it's been a complete disaster. So, anyway, here's the point. I've heard a criticism of Riper that says, you know, he shouldn't be doing that and that he's, you know, he's he's he's breaking he's just breaking the rules of the church. Let me just be vague on that. So, and my my my question is, have you talked with him about it? >> Have you asked them about it? Because like I said, every time I So, and why but why would you ask somebody? Well, that's one of the foundational principles in this, right? >> Right. >> Which I don't remember if I laid out explicitly, but I did mention earlier. If you why why are you assuming the intention? Why are you saying that you can read the heart and the intention of the person that you're against? >> Or even judge their actions as wrong if if you're if you're only looking through a keyhole at their body of work. Right? So what I'm saying is if we followed love as patient, just as an example, going back to 1 Corinthians 13, if we truly love the other person, we're going to try to understand kindness. It says love is kind. >> That means we're going to be we're going to assume the best of another person. We're going to go try to understand and go back. That's my whole point in all of this is >> is that and this is what scripture says. Let's keep going down the love and we can come back to this this whole example again in the future. >> Um, love is not jealous or boastful. It's not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way. It is not irritable or resentful. It doesn't rejoice at the wrong but rejoices in a right. Love bears all things, hopes all things, believes all things, endures all things. You know, bearing all things, which means allowing for the normal brokenness of our humanity and dealing with one another with flexibility, hopes all things, believes all things, assuming the best, hopes all things, a joyful anticipation of good. Like, if I dealt with this person, maybe I'd find out, you know, there's something else. Um, love never ends. So, anyway, it it it just goes on and on. >> It's it's desire. What is charity? It is desiring the ultimate good for the other person. >> Right? >> So if you whoever it is because there's been plenty of people who criticized father riptor over the years whoever is doing it or even me people come after [laughter] me and it's like listen do you want that person to go to heaven. Okay. Like how bad do you want them to go to heaven? Right. Truly. >> Right. >> Right. How about do you have kids? Do you want your kids to go to heaven? How would you handle a conversation with your kids if they did something? You know what I mean? >> Yeah. like are you going to walk with him >> or your spouse >> or your spouse? >> Yeah. >> You know, it's Yeah. Anyway, so let all that you do be done in love. And by the way, there are so many saints uh who talk about the important I think his St. John of the Cross has a great quote that's like in the end all will be judged on charity alone. >> Right. Well, you know what I mean? >> There's another passage in James >> not to not to cherrypick quotes by the way. That one is a great one in conjunction with the thousands of other ones, right, that also are in conjunction with scripture, >> right? Another passage in James where he says if if you and I'm paraphrasing, if you don't give mercy, you will not receive mercy. Is that one of your passages? >> Yeah. So, I'll skip a sentence. >> Well, but go back to the previous one. What was this? What was the reference? The reference >> uh >> 1 Corinthians >> 16:14. So, not too far after what you read. So I say this is your starting point lest you become like the ungrateful servant. >> So Matthew 18:32-33. Then the Lord summoned him and said to him, "You wicked servant, I forgave all I forgave you all that debt because you besought me. And should you not have had mercy on your fellow servant as I have had mercy on you?" >> It's this understanding of I'm a sinner, >> right? >> I have to be humble. God's forgiven me all of this grace. Yeah. Yeah. >> Am I going to go strangle somebody >> verbally >> in public? >> Yeah. Online. >> Yeah. >> Because >> my feelings are hurt or I misunderstood or I'm not taking the care and the time to understand. >> Yeah. By the way, all of this may can be true even if the person who has >> the critique is right. >> Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> So, this doesn't just apply. >> I get into that, too. >> Okay. Keep keep going. Um, so then my next so one of my first principles though in in in this so Father Gregory Pine's book all his principles mirror mine and I'll just give his three real quick um because his has a lot more words than mine do. Uh one, is it a serious fault? Two, can the person change? And three, am I motivated by love? >> And that is those are the basic those are his criteria for do I do I correct them? Say them again though. Say it one more time. and they're worth. >> So, three basic criteria. >> And by the way, this is he's already given a whole lot more background like this is great. Correction when done well is ordered towards loving communion, >> which is unity. >> Which is unity. Yeah. Yeah. There's virtues of correction. So, he's already laid out a ton of nuance and important things, but his basic criteria is is this a serious fault, which I also say um can the person change, which I say kind of say that And then am I motivated by love? Which we've already covered now because I think that is the underlying principle. And I even kind of I I said I want to we were talking about this and I said I want to offer one that I don't you didn't write about. And it's have I earned a seat at their table. >> Yeah. >> And so I write you're not entitled to speak into someone's life just because you quote unquote know the truth. Christ ate with sinners before he preached to them. This wasn't hospitality. It was intimacy. It was trust. The correction is sacred. you have to be invited in. That makes it a little bit hard with people online, but that it goes more, I think, to the Matthew principle of I need to at least reach out to this person because I believe in the act of reaching out to someone and saying, "Hey, maybe I'm reading this wrong, right? Maybe can you help me walk? >> It's you are being invited in." Right? The image I use is >> there's a reason why we're not standing on street corners with signs yelling at people. >> Yeah. How was that effective? Or better yet, I'm in my house and I'm I'm This is to your point of keyhole judgment, but I'm in my house and I have a beautiful kitchen window that people can see into if they're on the road and maybe I'm having a discussion with my wife and someone drives by and they think they see something and so they stop and get out of their car and they go up to my window and they start yelling at me through the window >> like, "Who the hell are you?" >> Right. >> Right. like why would I give any care as to what you're saying to me? You don't know me. >> You don't you're not taking the time to interact with me and ask. >> You're just going off of this keyhole judgment as you said. >> So why would I pay attention to anything that you have to say? You have not earned a seat at my table. So, anytime I think we're we're I think it's makes it really easy for everyone, which is why I put it in there because 99% of the time, my opinion, when you're interacting with people online and you see something that someone wrote, people used to do this to me all the time. Hey, did you see this? Did you see what this person said? Like, no, I I don't care. I don't know who that is. I Why? Like, what am I supposed to do? Leave a comment on their post and like, hey, you're wrong. Okay. And >> right, well, don't we have a duty to correct? Like we have a duty to love. >> So So what good is it going to do if I just hop into coms? I'm like, "Oh, you're you're an idiot." Like what? That's silly. >> Yeah. >> So earning a seat at the person's table. >> And you know that goes with a principle I've always taught about evangelism or taught for years anyway. Love builds a bridge over which truth can pass. >> When you and the reason, you know, so interesting you were on with Milo Yiannopoulos. I'll never forget this this conversation back and forth was >> um >> and what was your goal in going on by the way what was your goal on going on with Yiannopoulos by the who who who is a rabid homosexual at the time I think >> well he he was we we actually talked about this recently not not to rehash it for those who listened but for those who didn't listen um he a lot of people didn't know that at the time I went on his show he was actually in the process of trying to come But that was that was that was behind that was private. >> Super private. Well, that's what I'm saying. He he didn't know. >> But he was but he lived a very openly homosexual life and he even got into some trouble. Um huge public criticism we're getting an underage >> comments he made. >> I mean I I shouldn't even say use underage because it was all >> but the point being why why did you go on his show? What was your motivation? >> He invited me on to talk about the problems of pornography and things like that. And that was something that I was teaching on at that time. Right. >> And I just thought, okay, well, he has an audience. He clearly cares >> and he invited you. >> And he invited me. >> So, this is interesting. There was somebody in in in our life somewhere that criticized you for sitting down because they they basically said, "How how in the world can he justify sitting down being in the presence of somebody who believes XYZ?" And my answer back was, "That's exactly what the Pharisees accused Jesus of. It's exactly what the Pharisees included Jesus of. I want to say it hundred times. >> Yeah. >> That's exactly what the Pharisees include, you know, accused Jesus of. So your goal in sitting down was, hey, there's you've been invited to the table. Why wouldn't I? Right? You know, I so it recently there was another thing I think was in Trump's first term and some and somebody got invited to or maybe it was Obama or something. It was probably Obama and some Orthodox Christian was invited to sit down with him. How dare how could he ever like are you serious? >> Right. I I have the opportunity to influence anyone of substance. >> If I think I can be of benefit and they're asking me to come to the table, I'm coming to the table. Yeah. Jesus sat with anybody who wanted to sit with them basically. Go ahead. >> And and well, maybe I said in here. >> Um yeah, if they haven't invited you into their life, their heart, their struggle, then you're just shouting from the sidewalk. That's not an evangelization noise. If the answer is no, meaning have you if you have not earned a seat at the table, just pray for him and move on. Um, next, so the next principle is, is it actually serious, which is funny enough exactly what Father Gregory Pine said, are we talking about mortal sin, heresy, scandal? Yeah. >> Or is it a preference or I say specifically a tone you didn't like, or a slight difference in style? Not every disagreement is a hill worth dying on. If it doesn't threaten their soul or the souls they influence, it might not be yours to correct. So I say ask this question. Is this something Jesus would have pulled someone aside for or is it just something I don't like? >> Yeah. >> And then I go into the next principle. But I you know that's another there's there's still a ton of nuance there, right? Like you got to go back to the love thing. You got to go back to like do I actually have influence in this? That's a big that's that's one that I >> that I use a lot if if so given that all of these proper steps prevenient or early steps are taken if if I'm going to see if I can make a difference I will ask gently into the conversation with the person and say hey are you open to a conversation about this >> and if they say no you know or or they or they they say no in any way or they're really resistant. You know, as an example, one time I wanted to post an article on Father Ron Rollheiser's something he wrote in a book and I asked for a meeting with him and and it wasn't it was it just I'll just say this, it was very clear there was no interest in talking to me. >> I was the president of ETN News then or the head of National Catholic Register. uh that may have been an issue because obviously he's not on that on the Orthodox side of the church. But so you know and and I will say in that case, why did I want to talk to him? Because of Matthew 18, >> which says, and I'll read it to you, but I don't want to go ahead >> get off track where you're going. Matthew 18, reproving another who sins. If your brother sins against you, >> so is is Rohiser my brother? There's a question there because in terms of orthodoxy, I wouldn't put him as someone who who falls in line with with church teaching. So to me, he's outside of the camp, but he claims Christ and he claims Catholicism. So, you know, it's there's some gray area there, but I went I went and tried anyway. But if your brother sins against you and and how did he sin against me? Well, he said some things regarding prayer that I think are very dangerous. I'm a Catholic who cares about that topic. I have some influence. I've written a lot on it. So, I think it would be good maybe to to, you know, give some him some information that would make him uh maybe reconsider or maybe I'm wrong and maybe I need to learn something. So, go and tell him go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. Alone. Alone. Which is what I was doing or I tried to do. If he listens, you have gained your brother. >> Um, but if he does not listen, take one or two others with you. Now we start talking about now it's becoming a public matter. It went from a private matter to a public matter. That every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses to make sure. >> Confirmed by the evidence is really important too. Yeah. So what that is presuming is that the wrong was actually a wrong and it can be evidenced that it was a wrong. So, for instance, I'm thinking about how like I've corrected uh Casey Cole, Father Casey Cole, >> and and we've done we have articles correcting other prominent figures. >> Now, did I go to Father Casey Cole? No. >> Why? >> I have no way to reach him. >> And what I did was I approached it in the way that Jimmy Aim Aken and Trent Horn do. >> Yeah. >> Which is I'm not attacking the person. >> Okay. I'm going to give you what the church actually says about the topic that they were talking about. >> Ah, so the difference is this is interesting. This is good. You didn't So the the title of your post wasn't Father Casey Casey Cole is a big fat sinner. Whatever whatever whatever label it would be, right? >> It What was the title of the post? >> Something about um >> was it masturbation? Right. >> Yeah, it was it was on that. I'd have to look it up. I don't remember. Now I'm questioning. Maybe I maybe I need to Well, I'll if it's wrong, I'll call myself out on on here right now. Uh let's see. Burke, we're doing this live, folks. >> Yeah. >> You want to keep reading Matthew while I look this up? >> So, but if he does not listen, okay, one or two or three witnesses along with that every word may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church that goes from private to small group conversation to big group conversation. So now you're telling and and in this case so there's a general principle of Matthew 18 which is charity individual and then and then there's a a more specific application related to ecclesial hierarchy but go ahead. >> So so the title is response to father Casey Cole's masturbation and p pornography and mortal sin. >> So that's the title father >> yeah it probably could have been a little bit better but it wasn't it wasn't >> it wasn't father Casey Cole is sinning against the church. Right. Okay. Right. >> Yeah. So anyway, point is though because I knew that there was no way and you know I'll be I'll be frank. I I do I have a lot of people on my prayer list that I hope I don't know. I gotta say I want to be careful because I don't want to violate any of our rules. I pray for him for Father Casey Cole. >> You know what? And I will tell you I so I my opinion has changed about this topic because I was encouraging you to do this post or do this whatever >> and you checked it. I mean we like >> Yeah. No, it was not like a >> wasn't a thing. Yeah. But if we had to do it again, I would say reach out to him. >> Yeah. Yeah. I probably would >> because I I just the Lord's been working on me in this area. I mean, obviously I've written about it. You >> That was several years ago. That that was years prior to this to be fair to my own growth, right? >> Regardless, I still think the way that I handled it and there are times I wish I would have just read I wish the entire video was just Augustine has this scathing commentary on the sins of masturbation and pornography. It should have just been that. >> Yeah. It's like go argue with Augustine. Don't argue with me. >> Yeah. I mean, but there is some there is some virtue to, >> you know, like Pope Benedict when he was dealing with centering prayer as an example when he was Cardinal Ratzinger and he he wrote a letter in 1989 to all the bishops of the church on some aspects of Christian meditation. That's the exact title by the way. He did not mention um Father Thomas Keading in it. I think he should have. >> Yeah. And the reason is is because father Thomas Keading was the biggest violator of what he wrote. And then that allowed Keading to go, "No, that's not really what No, God rest his soul, by the way. He's dead now." But but I wish he would have said who it was. But I have a hesitancy to do that myself. >> Yeah. So I don't want to forget though the evidence-based and this is still a part of what we're talking about, >> right? >> My video, Trent Horn's video, Jimmy Akens video, all of it was here's the claim. Here's what the church teaches. Here's the claim. Here's what the church teaches. >> Super charitable. That's one of the reason I love Achen and Horn, by the way. >> Yeah. >> Evidence-based means you can do that, >> right? >> Many of these like I there's stuff that Father Riper does that I'm like I don't I don't know like that makes me feel >> Well, I don't like how he talks. I'll just say I mean just so people can hear that we're not this isn't a a Riper apologetics thing. I like him a lot, but I don't like the way he talks about women. >> Sure. >> I hate the phrase put a bag over her head. I think that's an evil thing to say. >> Yeah. >> I don't like the uh the I think I I do, you know, think that he could do some research on the history of spiritual direction and who gave it in the church and and that it isn't because he he c he characterizes spiritual direction that not given by the priesthood is by the you know the polyester women in the parish or whatever. And there's some truth to what he's saying in terms of sometimes people are drawn to do that and they're all into goo they don't know their doctrine and so but it's just it's it's sometimes it's a little mean sometimes it's imprecise >> but you know >> the two things can be that's not mutually exclusive you can say I don't like how you handle certain things right >> but I also love you as a brother and I think some of the work you've done is some of the best work in the area >> he's done extraordin he's done extraordinary work I mean his work in Dominion >> it's >> I just don't I think that that book will be around for hundreds of years in terms of demonology and that sort of thing. >> So point is, you know, why did we do the episode on should Exorcist be hidden, >> right? >> Is because people are making >> How long ago do we do that by the way? >> It was one of our first. I think it was like our third episode >> year ago. Way last year. >> Um because people are making these goofy arguments and he gets picked on because he's the most popular. That's what happens. But they're making it against all these public exorcist quote unquote celebrity priests, >> right? >> And they're saying, "Well, exorcists are supposed to be private." Okay. So, you're you're bashing these public exorcists, >> right, >> based on nothing other than your own opinion. You don't have the evidence, >> right, >> to back up what you're saying. So, you're violating scripture in that way. >> By the way, you don't even know the article that I was talking about earlier. >> Sure. >> You haven't read it. >> Oh, the No, I haven't read it. >> Yeah. So, so you're not referencing that. You're just you're >> I'm referencing something. Yeah, I know. I'm giving the example of the evidence portion is important because too many people have too many opinions and they think that their opinions are right. >> Right. >> And then they base that they base articles and blogs and videos off of >> my opinion because I heard it from someone else who seemed to be authority. >> Right. >> We went to the Pope Leo the 13th Institute. I c I emailed with the president, >> right? >> The people who train exorcists and unite all over the world actually. >> They said no, that's not a that's not a thing that we teach. There's nowhere that's said anywhere. So go back the head of the Pope Leo the 13th Institute who trains exorcists told you >> right >> that there there is no teaching in the church that exorcists are supposed to be hidden. >> So when we made our >> Did you confirm what I said? >> Yes. Yeah. So when we made that episode we had evidence >> right >> to back up and say yeah >> look there's we can have a discussion about this. >> There are good reasons for exorcists to be here. There are good reasons for them to be public, >> but you're not allowed >> to go out into the public and say, "This person is sinning >> because they're violating something that I heard from somebody or some preference that I have." That's not okay. You are now s doing that and it's hyper problematic. And anyone who listens to it, >> if you have a following now, you're going to have to answer to God for those people who may not be discerning enough to understand. So, >> the evidentiary process is very important. Is now the right time and place? That's the next thing. Should I even if you should say something, should you say it now? Public correct correction often leads to public humiliation. And then I quote Matthew 18. If your brother's sins, go and tell him it's fault between you and him alone >> alone. >> It's not just good advice. It's a command from Christ. Correction should never be about putting someone in their place. It should be about bringing them back to grace. I don't know why there was so much rhyming in this. I wrote it a year ago. So, but what about public teaching now? So, when I was >> Go ahead. >> Are you getting there? >> Yeah. Well, that's kind of I think we covered that a little bit with Casey Cole. >> Well, okay. Yeah, sure. But here's an argument that I heard as a Protestant and that I believed that I brought into my Catholicism has since realized, no, this isn't biblical. This is not according to the church. If it's public teaching, I can publicly counteract it. >> Well, is it the teaching or the person? And how are you going about doing it? how right the way that you're doing it. Yeah. So, can can I get Go ahead. >> I want to give one example, >> please. >> I've written a ton of posts. >> Yeah. >> That are attacking a particular idea. >> Uhhuh. >> And no one has ever clued into the fact that I'm addressing an idea that's very popular and public that very public people are saying. >> Yeah. I've done the same thing. >> Yeah. Regarding dare we hope and that sort of thing. >> No one has any clue. >> Yeah. >> Because I'm I'm saying I don't have any interest in that. Yeah, >> I don't want to, >> which is charitable. >> I don't want to sin against this person. >> Yeah, >> I have I know what the truth is. It's very clear. I'm not going to lay it and I'm just going to lay it out. >> You know, it helps with that, too. I I I'll give an example. So, well, let's just talk about gradations of like who should we deal with? So, when I think someone's out, this this is credential. I could be wrong. And I I actually wanted to engage in dialogue with the person who wrote about uh Riper because I wanted to see if there were things they knew that I didn't know because person of goodwill and >> yeah, >> you know, all of that. Uh but I thought, well, maybe I'm wrong and maybe there's something I I you and I missed or whatever. >> But um in terms of uh where was I going with that? Richard Roar as so this is where I draw the line and I I'm I'm happy to be corrected if you think I'm wrong. when you're watching this video, put it in the chat and just say >> with evidence. >> With evidence. Don't don't say, "I think you're wrong." You know, but because I don't care what you [laughter] think. I care what the church thinks. Yeah. >> But and if you know something more than I do, then please please tell me. >> But Richard Roar as an example to me is not in the camp. No >> in his well not in the camp and his influence is astronomical >> and he has a huge body of work that is just contrary to church teachings. Uh so when it's that when that when it's when a person is just unrepentant huge body of work church teach against church teaching like he recently wrote a book on Christ consciousness that was absolutely heretical. Um, and so and there's all there's been all kinds of criticism. He's been big on the enog and you know like people as promised as father Mitch Pacqua has come against that on ETN all that to me is an unrepentant outside of the camp person and my tendency is to treat him like in scripture Alexander the co is it the copper smith is that the right name anyway where St. Paul says or or in the New Testament where it's like, "Hey, look out for that guy. He's a bad dude." >> Oh, yeah. >> He you know. >> Well, so then the the question is though, >> are you in a position? Right. So there's more nuance. >> People should know I think that Richard Roar is a serious problem. Yeah. And I believe it's safe to say that he's leading many people to hell. >> Oh, I would I I do believe that. Now you've written about it because you have one of the largest websites right on on mystical spiritual >> rightity and we have all kinds of spiritual the we have the best spiritual theologian on the planet >> who is a co-founder of the Avala Institute who checks you know >> and maybe I've had private conversations with people. >> Yeah. >> But like what's the difference? I'm not going out there proclaiming it because it's number one it's not my it's not my space per se, >> right? Uh, but you have the authority and the space to put out that correction. And I'm going like really nitty-gritty because I think at with him as an example, anyone can do it. It wouldn't be a problem. >> But if we stick to these rules, because there's a bad tendency for people to react and just be like, well, there needs to be a correction. I need to be the one to do it. They're not questioning themselves. >> So, what I'm saying is you have the you have the authority in the space to do it. I would even argue that there's other people who shouldn't be doing it because what can happen is you'll get someone who repeats what you say or skimmed an article that you wrote that's been checked by scholars, >> right? >> And they'll go to someone and say, "Hey, Richard Roar is a problem." And it'll be a sick offend of Richard Roar. >> And they'll push back and then that person will have nothing to say because they didn't actually study and they don't actually know. >> That's another issue. I want to get to that. It's another issue. But my the point I don't want to miss the point I'm making is there's a big difference between father riper clearly orthodox. >> Right. Right. Right. >> Nobody in nobody in their right mind is going nobody in the right their right mind. Nobody who's faithful to church is going to is going to question his orthodoxy. You might question his credential judgment. You might not like what he says about this or that whatever. But he's in clearly on the same >> he's in the camp. Yeah, >> we're in we're so that to me it satisfies the if your brother sins against you, he is my brother because he's in the church and he's he's in the hierarchy of the church and he's in the structure of the church and he reports to a bishop and in but in particular he's just clearly orthodox. That's where I really start to say we be need to be really careful. So, I'm going to give you an example you and I are involved with recently that is a good example, not just because I was right, but it it was good because of the the the way it played out and it's what's convinced me more and more to be more careful in this. And that was when Hallow came out Oh, yeah. >> a few years ago >> using Liam Niss as one of their guy, one of their guys. And I I was outraged because he was just part of getting abortion approved in Ireland. >> Ireland. And he's not just an actor with an opinion, which is one thing, with a private opinion or that they might say he's an activist, right? There's just a whole another level. >> And the way that he depicted the church in voiceovers as the church is like basically the church is the source of all the evil. You should see these commercials who were terrible. And so Hallow used him for their Advent program or whatever. And I'm like, whoa, this is, you know, so so before I >> and it it's because people on Facebook are saying, "Oh, this is amazing. I didn't know he was Catholic. I'm going to go watch his movies." Which means you're putting money in his pocket, right? Which means he's using that money for activism. >> Now you're participating in Yeah. So, so, so I wrote to the pre the CEO because of Matthew 18 and we entered into this very good dialogue. Um, in the end, and I just want to say to his credit, the guy flew out here with his with his co-founder and met with you and I >> sat down like they they went out of their way to come here, >> right? I can't speak highly enough of >> of of Alex and I now I'm like all on board with Hallow because >> we've had good conversations since as well >> and and it it says it says um if he refuses to listen but it it says if he listens you you've gained a brother >> which we have. >> And we have. >> Yeah. I texted him not too long. I don't it's been a while actually. I don't remember what it was, but I was just like, "Hey, man." Like just it was a note of encouragement or something. And he's he's always been quick to respond. The CEO of Aloe, come on. >> Right. What's interesting about it though is he did so we dis we disagreed >> in our private conversation. I said, "Okay, I you just need to know I'm going public." >> Yeah. >> And I and and so I told them I gave him the opportunity to go have more conversation. And then I said, "Where would you want people to send their comments to you because they're you're going to get comments." Yeah. >> And he and he gave me his personal email. [laughter] So we said and he said, "I'll never do that again afterward." But anyway, so but the point is now I have a brother and and then we even spent some time together studying, you know, some Catholic theology uh in another context that was that was very powerful. Well, the the profound humility that it takes for him to come to essentially our home ground, >> right, >> and sit down and have a uncomfortable >> and it wasn't a graveling meeting, by the way. It it was just a let's just it ended up iron sharpens iron. No, I did end up going public, by the way, but it was but it's following Matthew 18. >> I went private and then it's like nope. Then I checked with folks that you know that that check me on these things. Yeah, you you need to say something. This really isn't right. Because he said in our conversation, well, I have advisers who said this is not, >> you know, material cooperation with evil. And I said, well, I can stack them up on my side, too, you know. >> So, um, anyway, just the end of the end result is what Matthew 18 says, I gained a brother. I've, you know, he's a good man. They made some adjustments. I have been wrong in this thing before, but I just love that it how beautifully it worked and it was almost like the Lord saying to me, "Yeah, do that." >> Right? Don't do you're the other version of you not okay, right? >> This version is good. Do that. >> Right? So, we're we're got to wrap up here soon, so I'll start hitting these a little bit faster. >> Um, if your goal is holiness, not humiliation, timing matters, context matters, dignity matters, have you prayed about it? This is a principle that you taught me and that you have in the community, >> which is, hey, you want to go have a hard conversation with your priest as an example. >> Pray and fast for a month before going and saying anything. And >> say it again. >> Pray and fast for a month before going and saying >> before you go to correct, you know, get offer a suggestion or correction to your priest. >> And you can ask yourself these questions. So I said before you hit send, hit your knees. Ask the Lord, is this coming from love or is this coming from pride? >> Right? >> It should be obvious to most people. Even if you're deluding yourself, it should be very your conscience guardian angel is going to make it obvious. Am I acting out of genuine concern or the need to be right? Am I listening to the Holy Spirit or my own ego? Are you calling me to say anything at all? I I love, so I quote, "Create in me a clean heart, O Lord." Psalm 51. If you haven't prayed and fasted, you're not ready to speak. Period. Um, and then the next thing, are they capable of hearing the truth? Same thing with Father Pine. Some people aren't arguing in good faith. They're not interested in growing, repenting, or learning. They just want to win. Or worse, they just want to fight. Trying to argue someone into conversion doesn't work. Meaning, what I'm quoting here is these goofy uh arguments in the comment sections of posts. Um Jesus didn't chase the rich young man. He didn't beg the Pharisees. He spoke the truth and let them walk away. Do not give what is holy to dogs and do not throw your pearls before swine. Matthew 7:6. Sometimes silence is the higher path. If you pass all these checks, then you can speak. But speak like Christ with truth and love, with mercy and charity, with the goal of salvation, not domination. You're not called to win arguments. You're called to win souls. And that means walking the harder road, the quieter road, the cross shaped road. And then afterwards, there's a lot of reflections about um various times that Jesus corrected people and it shows it backs up everything that was in there. And then the other two posts, one is why is charity so hard? and it's talking about or because it takes time because you have to assume you have to ask questions, you have to sit down with somebody, you have to >> do all that stuff. >> And by the way, in terms of Jesus, it's very interesting. Who was he harsh with? >> I would argue people who were outside of the camp, people who were rejecting him. Who was he the gentlest with? >> Grave sinners, >> but there are people who are seeking. >> And by the way, he also had the authority to do that. >> He did. He did. I want to end with this. Um, Colossians 4:6. This is at Devil in the Castle, by the way. It's in keeping with our series, and we're going to end up hitting this next. Anyway, uh, uh, let your speech be always gracious, s seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer everyone. You know, a a buddy of mine who's on the TRD side is always saying, well, you know, he mocks the idea of tone. >> Yeah. No. Well, kindness has a tone, right? Patience has a tone. >> Um, so then am I gracious and careful regarding how I prepare the meal of truth? Is my meal stark and made up merely of sound nutrients, >> or does it mirror the banquet feast of God that is both nutritious and so appealing that none would turn away to a lesser source? Is my approach to telling the truth uh winning to those whom with whom I disagree, or it's appealing only to those who already agree with me? That's sort of the mad, you know, echo chamber. Here's second Timothy. This is very powerful. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelome, but kind to everyone, an apt teacher, forbearing, correcting his opponents with gentleness. Gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent. So why why are you being gentle? So that they might repent. So if you're harsh, you harden them in their position. But if you're gentle, you know, what is it? A what is it in scripture? In the proverbs, a kind word turns away wrath or something >> that they may escape the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will. And here's the question for examination. Am I quick to argue and defend without the patience that reflects kindness? or am I gentle and hopeful, relying on the wisdom of God that comes through the authentic and self-giving expression of love and truth. Um, here's Titus. Remind them to speak evil of no one. >> To avoid quarreling, to be gentle, to show perfect courtesy. Here's the question. Do I speak poorly of those who are deceived and in need of the light and work of redemption? Am I courteous? Do I avoid a confrontational stance that easily clo easily lead to closed hearts? Do I treat communication of truth as a boxing match or as a sharing of love between friends? Next passage, he Hebrews 5:2, deal he deal gently with the ignorant and wayward. So it's and and it's describing, by the way, a person who's mature. It says he can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward since he himself is not beset with weakness. >> Um >> that's a call to virtue, isn't it? Yeah. Since he himself is not beset with weakness >> or is bes I mean since he himself is beset with weakness. So it's saying you're a sinner be careful. Do I recognize my own weakness and sin in humility as I work to help others. >> Um here's the there's just a couple more here and we're done. James 3. But the wisdom from above is first pure then peaceable gentle open to reason full of mercy and good fruits without uncertainty or insincerity. Am I a peaceful, gentle guy? Um, okay. >> To me, it seems if I mean, if we're being truthful, it's pretty obvious when someone is arguing out of ego. And and I'm not saying any any of these people are. I'm saying in the general consensus, and maybe you're listening to this and you're feeling convicted. >> What I'm saying is it's obvious when you're arguing out of ego to anyone of good faith and goodwill, >> you know, and you're not winning folks over. And if the goal is to get people to heaven, like we need to be so much more careful because this is this devil. The devil's in the details. These are a lot of details and the devil does not want you to pay attention to any of them. >> Right. >> So, >> Amen. >> Anyway, uh Romans 16:20, the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. Amen. >> Amen.