Worship Ministry | Lecture 7 : BC311-WM-20260902

Okay. Before we pray, just wanted to read from Hebrews 13 and [snorts] uh 15 and also verse 16. Verses 15 and 16, right? Hebrews 13:15. It says, "Therefore by him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God. That is the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to his name." Right? So we know the book of Hebrews um talks about the uh the the sacrifices the contrast between the sacrifices that that was there at the temple and how the Lord Jesus is that perfect sacrifice. Right? So so here it says um by him let us continually offer that is by Jesus let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God. So what is it sacrifice of praise that we are offering in the in the new covenant says that is the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name right so when we give thanks to his name when we offer praise to God says that's a sacrifice unto him uh verse 16 but do not forget to do good and to share. Okay. Verse 16. But do not forget to do good and to share. And it says, "For with such sacrifices, God is well pleased." Right? So this doing good uh which means acts of kindness and sharing. It says that with such sacrifices God is well pleased. So in God's eyes, you know this sacrifice of praise which is the fruit of our lips giving of thanks. Yes, that is that is something that is accepted by him, received by him. And also on the same plane or the same level is when we do good and when we um uh when we are generous and when we share, right? So which means that um here it's talking about a lifestyle, right? Rather than more than uh you know a personal uh time of worship. Yes. that is valuable, precious to God. Our cor corporate times of worship again valuable, precious to God. But also our lifestyle of worship which is doing good to others you know and also giving and [snorts] um uh generously to others which is also considered by God as a precious sacrifice. Right? With that he is well pleased. Right? So let's just um you know as we've been studying worship ministry you know let's uh let's remember this uh as we pray right let's let's pray father we thank you for this day Lord we thank you for this reminder Lord about the sacrifices that you are well pleased with master Lord we thank you God you give us opportunities to open our mouths and thank you and praise you and worship you father god and uh yes master with that you're well pleased father we thank you for the opportunities that you give us lord uh that come our way Lord to be uh to do Lord uh acts of kindness to others master to be kind to others Lord and also Father God to share with whatever you've blessed us with master with as your word says that with such sacrifices you are well pleased Lord I pray that we'll enable us Lord for our lives a lifestyle to be a lifestyle of worship that we will truly be worshippers Lord who will worship you in spirit and in truth. We thank you Lord. We thank you for this time. We come at this time we commit ourselves into your mighty hands Lord. We give you all praise and glory in Jesus matchless name we pray. Amen. Amen. Okay. Um so we were looking at um we were studying the hymns right last class we're looking at the hymns. We're looking at some of these hymns um right from the reformation time some of the hymns that were used and um Amazing Grace again Fanny Crosby then Horesio Smapford right these were some of the names that we looked at and how uh these hymns um came from lives that were difficult and also um times or moments in in their lives which are even tragic Right. Horesio Spafford we read about um I mean we studied about him and how in a very difficult moment he wrote that hymn it is well with my soul. Right. So today we'll just look at um you know the unfolding or the you know the way the worship music as we call it here um today in today's contemporary church right the worship music how it actually unfolded over the years right um let me just share that with you okay Okay. Okay. So, we looked at the hymns. I'm just going to yeah to look at um you know how church music actually evolved over the years. Right. So we see that um songs which came from Martin Luther and there was also uh Martin Luther actually wanted everyone right that everyone should be able to participate in worship. Okay. The the reason you know he was writing hymns for congregational worship and also for teaching the congregation right so the reason he was doing that was because just prior to that the word of god was not available for the people right in fact the word of god was chained and kept the bible was chained and kept it was uh unlawful for common people just like you and I if we are not like the priests in the church to even possess a Bible. You know, first of all, it was very expensive, but it was unlawful for for people, common people to read the Bible and to, you know, so that was the time, right? So, um and so after the reformation, you know, so he was he made it very clear that uh uh that hymn should be sung by all and everybody should participate. Now, there was also another person by named John Calvin. um you know you may have known about Calvinism and how he you know brought that about. Now John Calvin was a little more cautious in his approach right to him writing. So uh he would specifically use only the psalms right the psalms and scripture in the writing of uh hymns and um so he um uh he he was actually um that kind of uh that kind of a background and he also did not you know trust music too much right uh the use of music he did not really um subscribe to you using lot of instruments or elaborate music like we see in David's the Davidic worship you know he uh was a little cautious about that uh and the the reason being you know out of the reformation into this movement he didn't want anything to take the place of god like to take the focus of god right so that was his um u that was his approach right so then we you know uh then all then came all the uh other hymn writer and and uh songwriters. Okay. Then what we see is uh something very interesting that happened um during the time of the revival the move of the holy spirit and uh we see that uh there were um uh there was a because of the move of the hol holy spirit because of the the lord's work of reviving the church you know from ritualistic worship or ritualistic traditions we see that Um there was a a a realness an authentic manner in which worship worship songs were written and worship um uh the the worship whole worship movement um happened right so reformation is one period which is let's say 1500s then we also have something called the Puritan uh psalm singing period which was in the 1600s then we had the hymns Yeah. Then 1800s what what happened was that um uh you know when this was a time when particularly in the west right and we're talking about uh the US uh and and the UK so we see that there were big preachers who used to preach in these open air meetings and crusades as we call it right they actually used a lot of hymns lot of songs um for the worship time right And also it we see that a lot of songs that we call the choruses right something simpler something which was direct uh the language was also different. Now the language of the hymns if you see it is old English. um uh it was very archaic, very literary but the language also changed to be more real, more I I won't use the word casual but less formal right where you know uh if in in the hymns if you look at those old hymns you won't say you won't see things like uh Lord I love you Lord uh you know you are my friend you won't see usage like that because it was a lot more formal Right. Very official language. Of course, it um it actually um recognized the holiness of God, recognized the majesty of God, but the intimacy was actually missing, right? The intimacy and and songs about the Holy Spirit um was missing and understandable because we you know when we see the moves of God, right? We know that during the dark ages that um uh a lot of things were lost right. Whatever god like whatever we see in the new testament church we see a whole reversal of that right. Uh in fact the whole theology teaching was not there right and it had become very ritualistic. So we see a lot of things were lost. The scripture, use of scripture, the the the personal relationship with God, everything the salvation message being preached, you know, everything was not in the organized church, institutional church, right? So we see that the Lord was returning or restoring that, right? That is what we call as the restorative moves of God which you would have studied in in the book revivals, visitations, you know, we we see the moves of God, right? from the 1500s from reformation right so with this with the moves of god we see that in the let's say the 20th century right um with the pentecostal movement and the holiness movements uh we see that it would these songs became more and more expressive more and more intimate right so in the sense your heart whatever the person the believer was feeling in his or her heart or the worship that the believer was um you know wanting to bring to God. Now these songs actually gave words for that. Right? So that is what we see u in the 1900s and especially if you if you look at the what we call as the Jesus movement which happened in the in the west right um let me just um share the notes. Okay. Um right the Jesus moment 1960s uh 1970s right you would see that and if this was um especially among the drug users um and and what we would call as people who were rebelling against everything that was uh that had a structure right what had structure okay government had structure family had a structure to it right um marriage had structure and all that the the hippie movement was rebelling against you know so there was a lot of drugs there was a lot of immorality there was a lot of um you know uh because of the drug use there was also u moving into new age and you know psychedelic experiences um spiritual experiences which were not of god right so uh new age and uh that kind of a movement so the hippie movement was into that but people started getting saved and um because of that we see that whatever songs that they were writing you know it was radical it was a real language it was u it was real authentic language it was simple language at the same time it was intimate language right so we see um those kinds of songs giving birth um or having given birth through those kinds of songs from the right from the um uh the hit the Jesus movement as we call it right um okay so in the 1960s we see that there's a birth of what we can call as the contemporary Christian music now what is called as CCM right contemporary Christian music um and uh we also see that with the birth of the Jesus movement right several um churches which began to which we gave birth to certain churches like the vineyard movement like the Marinata uh movement and so on. So we see a lot of churches, [snorts] lot of uh songs uh which were written uh and u and this uh was actually uh something that happened in the 1960s, right? Then we also see uh when it comes to contemporary movement, contemporary worship. So we see all this, right? The Jesus movement, then Maranatha and praise and worship choruses, then we see uh the vineyard movement. Um and uh and we see uh hillsong like churches like hillsong and and bethl and so on. Bethl of course is more recent but um vineyard Marinata Hillsong and all these churches and movements uh came there right now the newer movements would be like passion bethl elevation worship and so on right now these were um these started began to be used in churches worldwide right and some of these songs were also translated into the regional languages angages and used worldwide, right? Um but at the same time it was not without opposition, right? Every time like just like how we see you know when we when there is a move of God when there is a restorative move of God um there was always opposition. Right? Now this was something that was we see that it was initiated by the lord and uh but then the people uh there were there were some who readily accepted experienced uh the change transformation in their own lives but there were others who would actually oppose you know well well-meaning sincere people who would oppose that right and we see that like even in the the Lutheran movement and the puritan uh the holiness movement and the and then the charismatic movement and and you know and everything like everything when when God started restoring a truth the previous one which was which was actually something which experienced the move of God that would either resist or uh be very very um hesitant to maybe cautious to actually jump in to actually uh you know receive. Um so that is also that is something that also happened with the music right. So initially when vineyard music in this in the 1960s when they brought in those songs now we sing some of those songs now right and these they seem old to us right now. Okay. Like songs like Lord I lift your name on high came out of that. Right. And um what else um can I think of? Um songs like um step by step you lead me. I forget the title of that song but um you know some of those songs which we sing now. It came out of that moment, right? And because it was, you know, it was more like a very radical, very rebellious kind of a generation, right? Now, that that time or the music of that time did not have just the church organ, right? It was a it was more like a rock band. So, they would have the guitars, they would have the drums, they would have know like the bass and everything. And instead of a choir, they would have um maybe a few vocalists, right? One lead singer and two other singers. So it'll be instead of the choir, there were three people who were actually singing, three or four people who were singing and leading worship and so on. So the songs which came out of that movement had this kind of a music supporting it. Right? So we are talking about the west. We'll go you know into uh what happened in our own nation also. Right? Um so uh like India for example and I'm sure like that every other nation also has its um um has its roots and also has seen that changes you know uh as the years went by right so there was also opposition to the kind of music they're saying hey this is too loud this is too contemporary this is too radical this cannot be used for church church use right it is it is very irreverent disrep respectful, right? And the language that is used, no, this is not the language that you use to talk to God, right? You have to be a little more um respectful of God. You can't tell God, Lord, I'm your friend or you are my friend. You can't tell that, right? So, um you know, so the re so the thing is the language why did the language come, right? Why were such songs used? It came with a revelation, right? It came with understanding, right? Especially when you look at the you know the Jesus movement and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit um during that time you see that people experienced God in a very intimate way right they were um they were delivered from drugs and they were delivered from you know alcohol and all kinds of addictions um and they experienced God in a very intimate way and they experienced him as their deliverer as their savior as their friend and naturally their songs reflected that right whatever they had you know the the thing is they had come from broken homes right where uh because it was that generation where there was a lot of divorces right in the west so they would either uh you know grow up with a guardian or they would either grow up with a single parent right so their songs reflected the love of God the father who was bringing lot of healing emotional healing right? Emotional healing and deliverance and and so the songs reflected that right. Um and and that is why we see that the words which people use in the songs reflect the revelation which they experienced in those times right and also it goes back to the restorative move of God. So the theology of the songs um if you look at the words of the songs we see that it's it's very different right it's it's talking about the gifts of the spirit it's talking about the anointing it's talking about the you know outpouring of the holy spirit now those those kind of themes were actually not there if you look at you know Martin Luther's time right maybe some references here and there but those kind of themes will not be there you know like pour out your spirit or rain you know uh let it pain those kind of usage will not be there right because that was that came with the revelation of the charismatic moment that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit is for us like things like themes like healing and deliverance those were not there earlier but it came earl uh also includes in addition to forgiveness also includes healing deliverance and so on right so the so the new what we can use the word the new flavors that we s we see in these new movements came with the revelation. So we should understand that right. Um so as the restorative moves of God um there there came these um uh revelation and the words of the songs changed right so there was always a bit of a tension when it came to contemporary worship right what are the things that we hear today hey these songs don't have depth right which is true right some of the songs are very casual right um uh some of the songs are very superficial Right. And that is uh that is also there very light-hearted right and well one can say that that is because of the grace that people have experienced in God right the freedom that they've experienced in God the joy that they've experienced in God but people have also made mistakes people have also you know taken the the scriptural depth out of it and then made it very very light right very superficial right that is that is a thing the second thing is also about the structure, right? The structure of the uh the uh the the worship itself, right? The Lord Jesus, John chapter 4 23:24, he said that um yes, we need to worship in spirit and in truth, right? Spirit and in truth worship, which means that that should be the foundation. If you miss out on that, right, when you not worshiping out of your spirit, if you're not worshiping out of truth, if you miss out on that, then everything else is a waste, right? But if you're making that as a central aspect of your worship, spirit and truth worship, then the form of worship or the format of worship might change, right? You could have a choir, you could have liturgy, you could have, you know, everything. But then at this at the core of it, if it is spirit and truth worship, then it's fine. So, so the thing is like we said, you know, hymns everybody was singing together, right? One person would start and everybody sings together. There's nobody to lead worship, right? Then it became with uh starting with the vineyard and you know the Marata and the Jesus movement it became a band became [clears throat] a small team. Okay. I wouldn't say I wouldn't say band I would say a team right musical instruments few singers who were leading congregation in worship right there were there were many reasons for that one the kind of music was like that it was not not suited for organ and church organ or choir uh primarily right but the music was like that so that that is why we had the band the second reason also was because the spirit of god was leading leading you know in a certain way uh in the congregation pouring out of the spirit people were experiencing the gifts of the spirit and so on. So there came um uh you know um I would say a need to actually lead right to lead the entire group into what God was actually pouring out into what God was having in store you know during the time of corporate worship and so we had a like a worship team that was leading worship leader that was leading now the danger is that it can become a performance right Everybody sitting or standing, watching, listening, clapping but not really engaging, right? Um so you you can see that okay hymns everybody is you know gathering together there's no one person leading maybe the pastor will just call out the hymn and everybody would sing but no interruptions during that time right there is no interruption start to finish they sing sit down then maybe some prayer and then maybe a sermon and then okay now let's all stand and sing this hymn so that's it but in a in a in a format where a team is leading you know there is um you you are listening to God worship leaders listening to the Holy Spirit leading of the Holy Spirit maybe there is a time of you know and different expressions of worship also people are getting revelation right Psalm 95 it's talking about shouting it's talking about rejoicing talking about kneeling all these different expressions of worship God we see in Psalm 95 is also something people are getting a revelation of now this format act of worship would actually give us the freedom to do all that. Right? So the worship leader might say okay now you know let's all lift our voices and shout to the lord right it's a shout of victory the lord is giving us victory right maybe that that is what the lord is leading okay he sense the spirit of god feels that okay a lot of people are having carrying bondages a lot of people are feeling you know heavy in their spirit and today is a day of breakthrough and liberty so uh unlike the previous formats of worship structure which was which was not really flexible this was a flexible structure which would allow you know those kinds of expressions of worship also. So again you know there was a tension there people were saying okay hey we used to that this is what we used to do why are we doing this now right this is what we are always used to why why is this young person or why is this person you know telling us what to do right um I just want to you know sometimes we also make the mistake right the people who are leading also make the mistake of giving too many instructions you know stand up sit down raise your hands clap your hands right shout louder sing loud uh you know smile and saying too many instructions right so people are saying you know why I don't want I I didn't come to church to hear all these instructions like Arabic instructor you know exercise do this do that no I I just want to worship the lord myself so we you know people made mistakes in that side also right so participative versus you know performance you know that was something [snorts] then the other thing with technology like okay with technology it made things even worse the performance part of it right now we started streaming we started recording we started putting that on YouTube's YouTube videos right on other social media which meant that it had to be good-looking right it had to be bright you can't use one tube light and one you know something like this and record it and put it look very dull and people who are watching will feel okay let me watch something else right then the audio right audio had to be clear it had to be crisp it had to be equalized well it had to be balanced well so with the technology with the need for putting you know videos and everything on social medias making sure that everybody you know one end you put something in some you know village in India and everybody across the globe, whoever has internet access can actually see it, right? So it had it advantages, right? And so with the technology came those challenges also. So you decided to put a big LED screen, right? Everything is there. He decided to use cameras because people started meeting in big you know gatherings and uh sometimes the camera would focus on the person or the speaker or the team so that people sitting right at the back could actually see it right and engage with it because if it's a big room there there are chances for you to disengage right so you started putting that so then again the challenge of the whole thing becoming a performance right so we need to be really careful careful. Uh so again you know people felt okay this is becoming more of a performance. I go to church and then it's like one concert you know there are these lights there is this smoke machine there is this big screens and yeah the it's like concert I go and then I come back and I don't I don't have to do anything I can't hear myself sing it's you know so things like that right so we we just needed to be the church needed to understand it went to that and needed to understand hey you know we need to pull back things a bit know yes it's great that we can use technology And we need to use it uh in order things to be effective. But at the same time preserve the heart of why we are doing this. And if we forget why we are doing this and the whole intention is worshiing in spirit and in truth so that every person is able to engage in worship. We keep that at the center then then you know we can actually avoid a lot of mistakes. Right? And another challenge is awards, right? Because of the recording, because of the um widespread um uh you know the use of recordings and videos and so on, it became monetized, right? So if you're putting on a platform and um there is money to the view like you can opt not for it you don't have to opt for it but that is the only way certain ministries would actually be able to sustain themselves that is the only way because they are totally into that this is what they do they don't have a physical church or anything this is what they do which means that with the views and you know when it when it reaches like 1 million plus views there are certain there's a revenue stream you record it and you put it on Spotify or anything with the you know with the downloads and with the people streaming it there is a certain revenue attached to it so it became commercialized right so with that also that is also some challenge like people are saying this is so commercial right it's all commercialized there's videos there's saying is there um and it's becoming more and more like an industry by itself Right? You have the film music industry. You have the film know those videos. This is also another thing you just it's a different category. It's worship or gospel or contemporary Christian music. But that is also becoming a industry you know the commercialization of it and also you know the award for it you know best worship song or best worship leader or something like that. If you put awards to it you know that's the mistake right? Then you know how would you call it a best worship song right based on the views or based on the downloads? How would you call it the best worship song? Is God actually putting his label approval on it and saying okay this is the song I like the best of all the songs you guys have written and sung you know this is what I like the best. You know how do you say it right? So of course people have their own rationale. Um you know and in this particular season this was a song which blessed a lot of people and all that but having said all that it is still a little bit commercial right. So so those were some challenges when it came to uh worship music. Okay. Okay. Let's look at um a little bit of uh history of the any questions here. anything that you may want to add? Okay. Um now our present notes have only about the Jesus movement and um you know a little bit of the evolution of music till the contemporary time but um you know we'll I'll share that I'll share the you know exact notes for that a little later and I'll upload it also right so we can take a look at it. Okay. Now coming to our you and know this was a whole lot of things that happened in the west right but also whatever happened in the west you know found its way globally because of technology you know because of the media like those days it was cassett cassette tapes then came the CDs then uh came the internet and so it was streamed so it more and more uh it was becoming available for everyone available globally uh worldwide. People started using it also. It was not just just the music but it was also the the teaching right is it was also the restorative moves of God right where um where globally everywhere people were hungry for the truth and God was restoring it to the global church. Of course it would start with one person. It would start with uh maybe a group where God would pour out and you know the revelation and uh also the that experience maybe sometimes but it would reach the world it would reach globally right because of technology uh because of you know those days it was it was just the people who are growing you know they would they they heard they experienced in their maybe in their own bodies in their minds maybe you know let's Say take for example healing and they would go to other places and share hey this is what I experienced a god is a god um on the cross he took our sin he took our sicknesses and he's a god who heals he's a god who delivers and this is available for every believer who believes and every believer who can minister right that whole thing of every believer is called to minister you know the the whole teaching about the prophetic Okay, we you know you and I can hear the voice of God. You and I are designed to hear the voice of the shepherd, right? You and I can prophesy. So whoever experienced that, hey, I heard God speaking to me and I shared that and then it was so accurate and and so I now I understand that God speaks. So they would they would go other places where they came from and then they would teach, right? So the the churches everywhere, local churches everywhere started you know teaching started um and and so these songs and these this worship or the structure of worship also came along with that right let's say um if a church would have a conference right maybe a vineyard church has a conference or a any church has a conference any other you know uh place in the world so they would teach about it And the the normal thing is also to have the worship time and the worship music right of that of that church or whatever they had written or about that particular theme they would teach they would they would learn. So the this particular church in you know maybe in other side of the world gets to hear gets to learn and uses it starts using it right. So this is how the whole thing spread right the truth um the revelation and everything spread right so in our own nation like uh I'm talking particularly about um India right so we see that um when you look at when you look at Indian Christianity we see that um you know the earliest uh thing of uh the earliest u let's say influence was through the arrival of uh St. Thomas Apostle right Thomas he came to India and um traditionally he's uh he's you know we have the historical proofs also that he came to the Malabar coast which is modern day Kerala right which is the west coast of uh India and he came there and um they maintained like people who are who are saved they maintained a liturggical form of prayer Yeah. Right now we know that Thomas when he's coming from he's coming from a from a Jewish root. Right. So some of the prayers he must have used you know Syriak or Aramaic and all those things. So so whatever he was used to is what he brought and people started using that you know the the believers started using that. So you see that the Syrian or the Orthodox Christianity uh being there and the and the worship would have been like more like chants more like prayers that were said it was written it was read out and even today like if you look at some of the Syrian Orthodox u church service if you attend or even the Marma church you know Martha church came from the Syrian Orthodox church right anybody attended Martoma the whole thing will be in Mallayalam. No. Okay. Maybe you should try and attend one Matava church service or a Syrian Orthodox church service. Right. So, so right from you know the time they they started wearing those you know the robes and everything and there's a lot of incense and all that is used. Um but the chants which are there is in a different language. It's in Syriak language. So, so we see that you know that is that is how it would have it would have started or originated here in India. Then we also see the colonization by other countries right the Portuguese. Where did they arrive? The Portuguese they arrived in um the west coast further up in Goa, right? So we see their influence in the architecture in the food and also culture and also in the Christian Christian roots. Right? So they brought uh some of that culture. The the British again with the uh colonization that also brought in you know people actually think that the British colonized to bring in Christianity. It was not right. They colonized purely for a economic reason, right? They wanted the spices that are grown here. They wanted the crops that are grown here, the natural resources that was sent back to the nation, right? So, it was more of a economic trade. Then that's how it started. Uh the religion was uh we would say an offshoot of that, right? An overflow of that where people saw that they were aware that yes there is a need in this nation. you know people do not know God. So the ones who like um we we read about all the missionaries who came like some of the Protestant missionaries and they came and they shared the gospel. So you see you know from that from these nations people coming and sharing right. So that is why when you see some of the mainline churches like the earliest churches you know have you seen St. Mark's Cathedral MG road St. marks in Bangalore. You would have seen it on the way from here to central EC central, right? It is there on MG road. It is more than 100 I 150 plus years old, right? It was built when the British army came here. It was mainly built for the soldiers. So if you go to that church, you will see that there is a place there is a place where they used to bring the horse and tie there. No vehicles those days, right? horses, horses, carriages. So that is why that area is called area. Atonement area is typically where you have the army parked there. I mean camping there, right? So it's called a cantonement area. So you would seement area in different cities also. You know, Belgam there'll be ament area. Pune there's ament area. uh uh and uh I don't know if other places you will see wherever you hear this word atonement area it means that is where the army came and set up a camp there so this mark's church 150 years plus had um British soldiers and British army officers uh come and then they would you know tie their horses there and they would walk in and uh they would have the church service so so the church of England And you know it was more of a Anglican liturggical service Protestant church but it had a uh Protestant meaning you know it was uh after the reformation but it had all these roots right. Similarly the other Catholic churches also right where the fathers would come and on missions and start maybe a school maybe a hospital and you know and the church also right so the songs were mainly you know if you see in these churches it will have the choir the organ and the English being the language because that's those are the missionaries so they would bring the songs right but these songs even in the north and other places right if you see the northeast East the Presbyterian missionary missions and uh Baptist missions right they brought those songs now those songs were translated into the Indian languages and sun right so it began it it began to be used in the uh churches right now when we come down south right we see Kerala we see Tamil Nadu here what happened was they there was already some traditional music which was there like Indian classical or what you would call as the karnatic music right it was used uh in in the worship of gods and goddesses and deities temples and everywhere the karnatic music was used now when people became believers they started using the karnatic music the form was karnatic music the instruments were Indian instruments like they would use the vina they would use the tabla they would use any other percussion instruments like the murdangam or anything or harmonium and stuff like that but the tunes were katic right it was not western dori fasal for solati you know it was not that but it was a karnatic scale and they started using karnatic music in their devotionals right okay we'll stop here and then we'll come Thank you.