"Women Work So Hard For Lives They Don’t Want" - Suzanne Venker

You dedicated your book with an apology to a generation of women who've been misled. >> I did. >> How have they been misled? >> Yeah. >> I was essentially apologizing for the oversight that I believe both my generation, which is Gen X, by the way. I was born in ' 68. and the generation one up from me, which is the boomers, which I think is more really what I'm talking about, but definitely some Gen X. um the oversight that they um did not share with their children, their daughters in particular, cuz I really write mostly for young women. Um how to go about building a life that essentially includes marriage and motherhood. That the messaging has been for decades now. um you can do anything you want to do without any caveats there with no explanation or nuance. You need to sort of prove yourself in the world in the way men do because equality is the goal. [snorts] Men and women are the same. This this kind of messaging um and then taught them pretty much to put career at the center of their lives. And what they didn't do was talk about how marriage and motherhood was going to fit into their lives and into that equation if they're just singularly focused on education and career. >> So what ends up happening is that they get somewhere around 30, the age of 30. And it is well known that women start to think very differently about their future because they want to start having a family and they hear that clock ticking and their priorities are shifting and they feel stuck. They feel like all these decisions that they've made up to this point were made with a different plan in mind because nobody wanted to talk about the fact that men and women are different and so it's okay to construct a different kind of life. >> Why do you think it's unpopular to warn women of that? >> Because the goal is a political one. It is about men and women being um equal which doesn't mean equal in value the way I define it but um sameness basically interchangeability that you know what one can do the other can do which by the way is often true but it doesn't take human desire into account. So male and female desire is very very different. And we don't talk about that cuz that would highlight how men and women are different. And the goal is for men and women to be the same and to have these trajectories that are the same so that everything can be equal and 50/50 in this sort of utopian version of >> what life should look like for men and women. And it's just not working. It's been several decades now with this messaging. >> Yeah. I I had this idea a little while ago, the bigotry of male expectations. So there's an idea called the bigotry of small expectations or of low expectations which >> it kind of explains some of the white savior complex that um >> college educated white people have around minorities that we will give you a helping hand allow us poor people from a minority background we will help you along and there's kind of a similar situation I think that's happening with the way that women are being spoken to specifically by other women which is you are only as valuable as you are able to play the role that typically men have done. >> And you know that in some ways sounds very liberating. You go, "Wow, this is independence. It's pushing women to be able to do what they want to do without the constraints that would have held them back previously." And I think that that's true. >> But what it forgets is that implicitly that denigrates what women have typically done. It makes them secondass citizens for doing the things that they used to do. There was a famous study that happened where um hunter gatherers from ancestral times were analyzed using modern huntergatherer societies and women the slightly uh how would you say motivated research team analyzed the data and said women did just as much big game hunting as men and maybe even more. And what they were trying to put across was women were able to do the thing that men did. Now they [ __ ] with the data. It turned out that that wasn't really the truth in at all. But what it implicitly said was that hunting was important, but gathering wasn't. >> Exactly. >> And how is that not misogynistic? Like that's the most misogynistic thing that I can think of from someone that's supposed to be >> pro- women. You're saying the thing that you do or did or your ancestors do or did naturally >> is not as important. And only if you're able to contort yourself into the shape of a manh >> are you worth something. So, in the same way you had women that did not fit the mold, say back in the 50s and 60s, who maybe did want more, right, from life than being just a wife and mother. >> Um, although I use the word just, [laughter] only to make a point, not because I feel that way about it. Um, if they did want more, they felt a little odd. And now you fast forward half a century and it's the complete opposite. >> Um, it's important for people to understand, which I don't think, uh, people in their 20s and 30s do so much. Um, and that is how this all really came to be. Because feminism, the second wave, we're talking about 1970s feminism. When you do a deep dive, you which most people aren't going to do, you know, but if you do it, >> I go here. >> If you do it, [laughter] it was so depressing to have to go through all that stuff back in the day. Um, you you come to realize that the most the loudest voices that we heard from, which is just a minority of women, right? It's not the everyday women. These are very uh small uh group of women who had some power and clout. And if you study their backgrounds, you find that just about every single one of them had a very dysfunctional story or upbringing or background that caused them to turn away either from men or marriage as a as an institution. [snorts] And rather than study their own story and come to terms with it, what happened to their really their mom and dad is what we're talking about. They extrapolated that story to mean, oh, the whole system screwed up. Oh, marriage is oppressive. Oh, no woman can be happy at home. I mean, they just >> made these stories and because they had the spotlight >> and people don't do that research, it sounded plausible because maybe if you're hearing if you're a woman who kind of back in the day did feel sort of whatever about motherhood, you're going to that's going to speak to you >> or constrained by the lack of independence and financial freedom >> because you are constrained for a while. You you're going it's a lot of work and it's a tremendous amount of sacrifice. It's a trade-off um that obviously I feel is 150% worth it. But we don't live in that world that that it after so many years of all of that messaging. Um it's it's not like feminism. You don't nobody really talks about it as a thing out in the world anymore. It's more like it's just embedded into the fabric now of society. You don't question or discuss feminism per se. It's just kind of accepted and known. Well, of course, in order for a woman to be equal to a man, she's got to live that same life. You can't be powerful um or happy or liberated or empowered if you're not working for pay. >> And if you do that, if you do the opposite of that, it's because you're specifically being counterculture >> or oppressed. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You've been conned by the patriarchy. >> There you go. Yeah. So basically you're saying modern culture has prepared women for work. >> Yes. >> But not for relationships and family. >> 150%. That's what I'm saying. And so what I'm I'm receiving the women as a coach who are coming in and as I say they're usually around 30, maybe a little younger, maybe a little older and all of a sudden their priorities shift dramatically and they desperately want a baby or they want to get married and can't find a man or they are pregnant and they want to stay home and can't because they made all these decisions professionally, relationally, financially to set them up for a life where you are never out of the workforce. >> [snorts] >> And when you do that, you're you're going to feel stuck and it's going to be a lot harder to extricate yourself from that if you once your priorities shift. >> And that's kind of where I come in when they call me. It's like, ah, and sometimes their husbands don't want them to do it. And it's just been this it's this mess really because of all this messaging and because going back to your initial question about apologizing to them, what I'm basically saying is, I'm sorry you were set up to fail. It's wrong. And you were set up because of politics. And you don't really realize that cuz this goes way back before you were even born. >> What are the decisions that you think lock women in to this future that is difficult to navigate when they grow up? >> So I think there are three main decisions that women make throughout their 20s that that can either set them up well or cause them to struggle more later. Um the first one is professional. So, I've always been a very big proponent of finding and choosing a profession and a major in school, let's say, that works well with the kind of life you want to have down the line. So, you have to really um think ahead and play the long game when you're making these decisions. So instead of getting a degree in some major that isn't going to do anything for you, you're not going to make any money from it. Find something practical and some not just that pays a decent wage, but also that can be worked around how you see your life in your 30s and 40s. So in other words, I mean to to simplify this, it's rather than putting career at the center of your life and trying to fit men and marriage and motherhood in around that, I want them to do the reverse. >> I want them to put family first and make these decisions uh orbit around that. And that begins with the kind of career that you can a move in and out of more easily, ones that can be done more maybe part-time or from home, ones that um give you control. um you own something, you know, like you could start a business later. Just basically flexibility so that when you're older and your priorities do shift, which for most women they do, you have options. What do >> you say to the women that go, "Why should I have to give that up? >> I don't want to have to give that up. I don't why why should I have to why should I have to sacrifice and build my career around family life? I should my >> There's no should, but you will want you will very likely want to." And if you set yourself up the way you're doing it, you'll have no options. If you do it the other way, you'll at least have the option because what you're going to feel like is important at 32 is going to be very different from what you feel like at 22. You just don't even realize how you're going to change. >> I think that's one of the challenges with this, right? That you're saying uh women who are not thinking about family literally don't even have it on their bingo card. >> Exactly. >> You need to think about a thing you're not planning for and currently don't want. It takes an unbelievable amount of counterculture pressure to be able to say, "None of my friends think about this. None of modern media is suggesting that I do this. I don't even feel the desire to do this. And actively, if I got pregnant right now, I don't even know what I'd do about it, but I should start to construct a life that is futureproofing me in order to do that." It's a huge going into against the tide moment. >> It's so huge, Chris. I mean, it's a big ask, right? Yeah. I mean, and >> doesn't surprise me that women aren't doing it. >> No, cuz the running joke is, well, I'm trying to get to you when you're 22 before you come to me at 32. But at 22, you're not interested. But at 32, you're like, "Help me. [laughter] Help me." And I'm like, you know, it's so hard. I mean, one of the hardest things about coaching for me has been hearing these women and knowing that all of this stuff could have been avoided if they had just been told the truth. Have you considered in school in the UK we have something called scare them straight? I don't know whether you have the same thing. It's not gay conversion. It's getting prison guards in to schools and they explain how dangerous it is in prison and how bad of a time it is. And the whole point is to try and warn young mostly boys I guess girls too of the life of crime. And I went to a a very very workingass school in a very very working-ass town with lots of crime in the UK. And um I remember this guy came through and he had this sock which had batteries in and he was explaining about how the guys get into fights and they use these sort of like maces in socks to like you know get into scraps with and he banged it on the table and I remember I was so [ __ ] scared. I went to bed that night like it really did for me. I was like I cannot go to jail. That sounds [ __ ] terrifying. Or they boil the kettle and put loads of sugar in and they make syrup and they throw it on people and it burns them and stuff. It was [ __ ] terrifying. I was like 12. It was terrifying. Um have you considered I do that's comparable. Have you considered [laughter] getting the women who are 32 to do an intervention with the women that are 19 and about to choose their major in college and being like hey why don't we organize a local meetup and this it's not quite penerational but it's actually the important bit >> uh the women who are facing this problem or facing this challenge should I say >> to go and have a a conversation >> women that's a really good point no the answer is I have not thought about that but that's a really great idea >> them straight you need batteries and a don't forget Exactly. Y >> well because it's so um I don't it's really scary. I mean these women are really really it's hurting their marriages. Obviously it's not just hurting them personally but if if for example if you want to stay home but you can't because you've set up this life um >> it's going to hurt their marriage. So then the the marriage is falling apart the the family's falling apart. So this has a downward effect that um somehow I I think it's really clear for people who are very marriage-minded young like there are a lot of people who >> I always knew I wanted to be a mom. >> What's that? >> I always knew I wanted to be a mom. >> Yeah. Like they get it. I mean they just like well yeah of course I you know and that so I'm not so concerned with them because they're going to set things up sort of naturally. I mean, I did that for example, but it's much harder today because as you say, and that's exactly right. That's why I'm a countercultural author. I mean, everything I do is basically my motto is if the culture says do it, don't. And you will be successful. But if you're following it, you're going to struggle. >> Well, the the average American adult is likely to be divorced, has less than 1K in the bank, and they're obese. >> That's the average. That's the middle of the bell curve. So following the path that everybody else treads sounds like uh outsourcing wisdom to the crowd, but it's actually a reliable route to a life that you probably don't want. >> And what do you think separates the people who get that from the ones who don't? >> You know, >> not listening to what everybody else says. So can you can you give me an example of the >> prototypical 32year-old person that comes to you? What what career choice have they made? What did they do in their 20ies? Why is that an issue now? Because a lot of women might think, well, if I choose a highowered career, that means that I've earned more money, which means I can step back from it. >> So, I'd say the biggest issue there that cannot be overlooked and one of the reasons or one of the one of the ways I think this began to go really downhill is student debt, which is a massive problem in America. And that messaging came from people who are parents who were like, "Doesn't matter what it costs. This is I mean this is the most important thing ever. So it doesn't matter if you have to go into debt for do to do it because you're just going to pay it back, right?" Well, the problem with that is by the time you're done with all the schooling and you've gotten the job and then you're starting to be paid enough to even begin to pay it back, all of a sudden you're around 30 years old >> and then this other thing comes into play. So that and this leads into you know home ownership all these all these uh financial issues that were um a result of decisions that were made again because they're not playing the long game because nobody taught them. Listen, if you go into this much debt and then you get married and maybe you want to stay home, you're not going to feel like you can because you owe all this money and your money is not going to go as far and you're not going to feel like you can have a house and it just it just um it's not fleshed out in the way that it needs to be >> for both young I mean I have a son and a daughter and everything my husband and I taught um was for both of them but of course their trajectories are going to be different because one's a boy and one's a girl and that's Another thing that's really taboo cuz nobody wants to parent their children, opposite sex children, differently because you're supposed to be the same. >> But the reality is that girls and women's bodies do something that a man's doesn't. >> And that has to be taken into account when mapping out a life in a way that's unique to them. >> Most people have no idea where their testosterone levels sit. But what if I told you there was a solution? Something that identifies low tea faster than a high school bully. And it won't cost you all your lunch money. That's where Function comes in. Gives you access to over 160 lab tests, including a deep dive into your full hormone paddle. Every result is reviewed by clinicians. Anything out of range is flagged. You get clear explanations with a personalized protocol with actionable next steps. So if something's off, you know exactly what to do about it. Whether you just need to go to the gym more or you need to play Creed louder in your car, Function will tell you exactly where your testosterone and everything else stands. Normally, this level of testing would usually cost thousands. But with Function, it's $365 a year. That's $1 a day to stop guessing with your health and start knowing. And right now, you can get $25 off, bringing it down to 340 bucks. So, get the exact same blood panels that I do and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom using the code modern wisdom at checkout. Okay, so first thing is choosing your uh work work and education career around building it around the family. >> Yes, flexibility basically instead of these careers that are going to literally take over your life. You're working 24/7. you have no space in your life to even find love or nurture love or get married and have children and you're not thinking about it and then all of a sudden you're you're older and you're saying where have all the good men gone? I don't see them. It just it's there's a there's just a downward uh Yeah. >> Is that the first? >> Sorry. >> You said there was three. >> Oh yes, sorry. Um so the second one is what did I say? Professional and then relational. So, this is another big one that's um controversial, I guess. It used to be that men or um moms and dads would tell their daughters, you know, don't bring home any man who u doesn't have a job, right? Or isn't um going somewhere, let's say. Um that's of course not done anymore because you're supposed to take care of yourself. You don't you don't need a man to take care of you. So, there are a lot of women who are getting with men who are um who haven't found their professional footing, let's say, let's put it that way, [snorts] >> or they're going to bank on the fact that they will find it someday. And you just basically don't want to marry a man who hasn't found themselves professionally because you again going back to you're going to have fewer options down the road because you in fact do need a man on whom you can depend financially if only for a short period of time. >> And why should that be controversial? Here's something that's really interesting. [snorts] Um, they took a poll of Americans and 71% of American adults believe that it's important for a man to be able to bri provide for his family. Guess how many think a woman should be able to or should should do it. >> 50 >> 32. >> Okay. >> 71 to 32. Now, that says to me that we know instinctively that women become vulnerable when they have a child and that they're going to need support both emotional and financial for x period of time. And that that is in part why we need men to um um embrace their providing and pro providing and protecting um desire. Um, and women aren't sort of expected to be the providers because do we really want women to get pregnant, carry that baby for 9 months, give birth, breastfeed, go through all of that? And by the way, get back to work. You should be working too while you're doing that. >> I mean, nobody really thinks that's a good idea that you here cuz why not just do that, too? you know, it's not it isn't natural. And if you're experiencing it, when you really do experience it and you look at it, you're like, "How could I ask her to go do this right now? >> She's she's she's she's very busy and she's very tired and she's depleted and she has an appendage hanging from her that needs her." And so I think we know that instinctually. And I think that's the reason for that gap. >> Yeah. It's it's an interesting one because I wonder how many women are allowing themselves to pick up the slack of make choices where they thought well I'm independent already. So financially maybe I'm I'm going to pay a little bit less attention to his future prospects in this way. you know, the top quintile, so the top 20% of female owners and the bottom 40% of male owners are mating with the woman as the primary bread winner. So the top 20% of women are mating down socioeconomically and the bottom 40% of men are mating up socioeconomically. That's a big chunk. That's a lot. >> That's a lot >> that's going on. So yeah, I wonder how many women are are basically picking up the slack, which creates this self-reinforcing loop of I need to work harder in order to be able to provide me the size and uh amount of freedom that I think that I need in order to be able to get a family off the ground without realizing that it it kind of is a trap. >> It's a trap. They're locking themselves in. And then um I mean it's true that we have a big problem with men not in the world in the way they used to be and producing. And that's that's a subject of its own. But there's a lot that women are doing to themselves. And again, I don't fault them. I They were tutored to do this. They were schooled to live this life. It's just that that's why they when they reach out to me, they're like, "Why didn't why didn't anybody tell me about this?" >> It's hard. It's hard to understand, make the argument, "You should be less financially independent. In what world does less financial independence make sense?" >> Because that's not the right framing. The framing is um what do you want? you know, why are we here? What what's what's the most important thing in life? What do you really want in your life? What do you want your life to look like? What do you um foresee your daily life to be like when you're 35, 40, 45? Like what kind of relationship do you want with your family? What what are your interests in work? Like you have to sort of um pan out and decide what's the most important thing to you at the end of the day. And I I believe and maybe this is just a parenting thing cuz I do think a lot of this is really about parenting. I do I think that the culture can be the culture but if parents were stronger in their opposing messages that it would be I feel like that's our best hope is through parenting because it's very hard to change the culture. Um is teaching what really matters and why we're here. And um is it really so that you can be as rich as you want or as um well-known? I mean, are you is status your goal or is meaning and your relationships and family your goal? And those, I hate to say it, are just they're competing. They just they compete with one another. And we don't like that. We want to we want to create a world where they can coexist in extreme forms simultaneously. You know, you can be all of this and you can still have this all at the same time >> as well and rich as possible whilst also having the family that you've always wanted. >> And you made a comment on one of your shows recently. What's that saying that someone said? What what what you see in private, >> what you're praised for in public, you pay for in private. >> That is exactly what I'm talking about. So, you go out and you do this thing, but no one's talking about what really goes on at home to allow that to happen and how you're suffering. >> Yeah. You can't I got to I got to bring this up. I got to bring this up. >> Okay. >> Are you familiar with Emma Greed? >> Do you know who she is? >> No. [snorts] >> Uh Emma Greed is the British Kardashian whisperer, entrepreneur, who is the co-founder and CEO of the Good American clothing brand and a founding partner of Skiims. But lately, >> Ski, >> she's been getting way more attention. something else. How she parents her four kids, ages 12, 10, and four, the twins. And uh we got a clip that I want to show you. >> Well, and you're very honest about how you view parenting. I have to ask you about this. You did an interview with the Wall Street Journal, and the headline was the Kardashian whisperer who says three hours with her kids is enough. That's based on what you say in your book. You call yourself a three-hour maximum. That raised a lot of eyebrows as you know. What did you mean by that? A three-hour maximum. >> Well, what I meant by it was exactly what I said and I really don't want to backpedal. You know, the first thing that I thought when I saw that headline was like, wow, that would never have been written about a man. Nobody would ever have written that about my husband. But the important thing is that I bring a level of honesty to everything I say because when you work Monday through Friday, the idea that you've got this entirely free weekend to just be with your kids and orientate your whole world around your children is just not a reality. I have errands to run. I have things to do. And because we're in a social media culture that says, you know, you have to arrange every pre-day and count every macro and decide what your kids can and can't eat and make sure that they're constantly entertained. It's impossible. We're setting women up for a failure and we're holding women to impossible standards. So, what I meant when I said I was a three-hour mom is that I probably spend like three hours with my kids doing the things that they want to do, entertaining them, being down on the floor and playing with them. then I have other things to do. And that's just the truth. It's just a reality. And I think a lot of parents feel exactly the same that you're depleted after a week at work. And actually, you only have a couple of hours. But isn't that good enough? I think it is. >> What do you think of that? >> So much to say about that. I don't know where to begin. [laughter] >> [gasps] >> Um, back when I wrote my first book and that was 25 years ago, I you can't even believe how many of these things this of course we didn't have uh social media but it was all uh print but the amount of stuff that I read like that from um working hardcore working mothers who basically wanted to make the argument that you know uh good enough good enough mothering just give them a box of cereal they'll be fine for dinner if you if you're too tired to cook that kind of thing. Um my I have a theory that this overparenting craze of the last what do you think that is 15 years um came about as a result sort of after women had started mothers excuse me had got started going into the work and mass and finding out for themselves that wow um okay this doesn't work well with um especially with littles but fulltime with motherhood with young children and they had to cut corners. And so, um, my [clears throat] argument's always been that those are two full-time jobs. In the same way, you can't be a doctor and a lawyer simultaneously. Nobody would suggest you do that. It's no different from full-time motherhood and whatever she's doing or people are doing that are full-time. They clash. They inherently clash. And something's got to give and you have to make choices. So, um, the there's a couple different elements to that. On the one hand, I want to say, you know, when you are home full-time, let's say, with your children, it is true that you would only spend a couple of hours, as she puts it, down on the floor with them doing something of, you know, that they want to do really intensely. It's not like stay-at-home moms are any different from her in that regard. The difference is that the rest of the hours of the day, you are physically present and available. So, as an athome mom, you're not supposed to be on the floor 12 hours a day engaged with your child as if they're the center of the universe. That's not motherhood. But it got skewed when when this transformation happened when moms were trying to mother with leftover time and feeling intense about it, like, "Oh my gosh, I haven't been here all day, so I have to really make this one or two hours count." And then they came up with a conclusion about, well, it's not supposed to be this way. Let's just say screw that. >> Yeah. >> But that's a misreading of really what it it's not that you can be absent 10 hours and then come home for 2 hours and be intense. It's when you're there and you are present, there's so much going on um that is outside of the one-on-one care. I don't know if I'm making this very clear, but >> Well, it seems like what Emma would say is she's making it work. She's doing three hours and the kids are they're at least >> Yeah. I mean, >> well, what do you think's happening to kids that are getting three hours with mom over a weekend >> or three hours on a Saturday and three hours on a Sunday? >> Well, it's more about what's happening the rest of the time. It's not I mean, those three hours might be great, but what's happening the rest of the the hours of the week? Um, you can't fill in for um an absence with a couple of hours a week with small children. It just doesn't work that way. That whole quality time thing is bogus. That's not real. Children need tons and tons and tons of quantity time, not quality time. It's just not something you can just do in leftover time. I don't know how else to say it. >> Why do you think Emma believes that you can then? Because she's >> Because she needs to otherwise her life wouldn't work if she actually entertained something else. So, if I don't know how I don't know her and I don't know how many children she has and I don't know how young they are. Oh, you said four, right? >> 12, eight, and two fouryear-olds. Okay. But it doesn't sound like this is a new uh revelation to her. It seems like this is her approach to this has been her approach to parenting for a while. She's been the CEO of SKIMS and she's got all >> stuff do it all the time. But >> she's got a lot of daycare help, a lot of handler child childare >> assistance. For example, if we were to present to I don't want to talk about her per se, but just somebody like that, present to her information about the early years, like you spent several hours with Erica Kasar talking about what goes on in the early years and attachment and all of that. A person who has a different philosophy about it will not be able to take that information in because in order to do that, you'd have to completely rearrange your life and look at it very differently. Well, what you're suggesting here is that in order for this kind of life to work where there's only 3 hours with kids, there are some unseen but >> very powerful attachment attachment costs that are going to happen to the kids. >> 100% >> that there's damage that's being done, but it's it's just not visible. But the damage that would be done if you had to leave work would be immediately visible. >> Say that last second one. The damage if you would >> if you had to leave work. So, if you had to, there are no solutions. There's only trade-offs. Right. And the trade-off that you have to make here is in order for me to work as much as I want to work. >> Yes. >> The kids don't get to see me, but they're fine. Yeah. >> Is the assumption. >> Erica's work is saying, "No, they're not, and this isn't good for them, >> right?" >> But that price gets pushed down the line. You know, the attachment issues only show up when they're trying to date in their 20s and 30s. >> There you go. That's it. However, the alternative, the other trade-off, which would be I need to leave work, that's paid immediately. Yes. >> That gets paid right now. >> Yep. >> So, it's >> I mean, we're not even allowed to talk about this. Let's let's be honest. So, I mean, not only not only does do we not address it until years later when they're in their relation relationship, we don't even talk about the early years. We don't talk about um daycare being bad, for example. So, >> I keep on putting my phone in. It's fine. >> Yeah. [laughter] Exactly. So anyway, I don't know how we got on to to her what I said per se, but um >> you were just talking about this like cultural pressure on women >> to produce in the same way as men do. Like what does the cultural pressure on women to produce in the same way as men >> do to women? >> Yeah. So I don't think at the beginning it feels necessarily negative. I think when when men and women are young, their lives do look remarkably similar. You go to school, you get a job, you're working, you're not married with kids yet, so you kind of do look interchangeable, right? You're doing the same things and everybody's fine. My argument is that it's really not until you start to either think about children or then really when you have them that our differences become glaring between women and men. So for example, when a woman goes through all of that that physically in being pregnant, giving birth, breastfeeding, and being at home in those early months or years nurturing. I mean, when she has a baby, her first inclination is not to financially provide for the baby. Your first inclination as a woman is to take care of him or her and to nurture him or her. That is natural to you. Um, your your desire to work for pay, at least in that moment, for those, let's just say, months, ramps down. Generally speaking, when a man becomes a father, his desire to provide ramps up. And I my theory about that is really that I feel like because there's such a difference in men and women as mothers and fathers in those early years, it's so obvious and natural that a baby needs his mother because you're physically attached and there's so much that she's doing physically. And I feel like a father is sort of he's there more to support her and to get things done so that she can be with her baby, but he doesn't really feel needed in the same way. And so his response to, "Oh my gosh, now I have a baby. I've got to is immediately to to ramp up his desire to provide." That's that's my theory about it. So when you have a child, it really just makes our differences glare and they just continue. like it just continues. There's so many things that go on after the baby comes where marriages start to strain because they are operating in sameness mode, equality mode, 50/50, tit for tat, you do this, I do this, how much did you and it's a it's a [ __ ] show, honestly. It really is. You cannot go into marriage with that mentality or you're going to be really unhappy. And so anyway, going back to your question is I just feel like because those differences between us don't show up until later, I think women don't realize until later how much they've been misled and how much it is hurting them until they're in the throws of it. >> What are you learning about breadwinning lums? >> This is a really difficult subject for people to talk about. Um, again going back to what we're saying is that we're supposed to be the same, so there shouldn't be any difference. But the truth of the matter is for most women, and not all, there are some women who are happy and fine in, you know, living a more traditional man's life for life. But for most women, um, it has been my experience doing this for so many years that eventually, no matter how happy they may be in their career at first or, you know, being independent, earning money, whatever, if they're going to be a wife and mother, and if you're not, that might be a separate conversation. Ultimately that pressure to produce becomes very taxing once you've become a wife and mother especially a mother really a mother [snorts] and the more and more you are the primary bread winner and oftenimes this happens not necessarily consciously but as the relationship grows and if you are becoming the primary provider or the main provider and I mean if there's a real gap here, especially if you haven't an stay at home dad. Let's say that's almost a an extreme version of that. Um, they become resentful and it's not I really it's it's not their fault. It's just it's not natural for them to be doing both of those things in my opinion simultaneously unscathed. Meaning you can, but you're wearing yourself into the ground. And this is why we have the mental health crisis we do. This is why we're having marriages as strained as we do because you're asking them to do too much. You cannot do both of these things simultaneously without breaking down. It's because they're not meant to be done simultaneously. Um, but the only way you could understand that is if you acknowledge the incredible amount of work that goes into raising a baby to become a healthy adult. If you dismiss that or think that's just something you can do on the side, you're not really this isn't going to register for you. you know, you have and that goes back to the whole um career at the center and thinking you can just these things can orbit around it and it just it just doesn't work that way. A man who's providing is in the main role, he's not going to be taxed by that. He's going to be emboldened by that. He wants to do that. He's a provider and a protector. It's in his DNA and it's unique to him and it's special for him, you know, and we've taken that away from it, I think. In other news, Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce companies in the US. They are the driving force behind Gym Shark and Skims and Aloe and Newtonic, which is why I partnered with them because when it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they are best-in-class. Their checkout is 36% better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms. And with Shop Pay, you can boost conversions up to 50%. Basically, you didn't get into business to learn how to code or build a website or deal with the inventory stuff [ __ ] on the back end. You just want to get down to creating and promoting an awesome product. And Shopify takes all of the mess off your hands and allows you to focus on the job you actually came here to do, designing and selling the thing that you love. So, upgrade your business and get the same checkout that we use with Newtonic with Shopify. Right now, you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period by going to the link in the description below or heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom, all lowercase. That's shopify.com/modernwisdom. You've got a line. Men want their wives happy. And if they believe she wants to provide, they instinctively step back. After all, if she's bringing in enough, why work harder or work more? >> So, I I truly believe that men need an incentive to work hard. They need something to work toward. Not just work for work's sake, but to work towards something, a reward, um, accolades, um, you know, that to to to produce to be useful. And, you know, when you have an entire generation of women saying, you know, I can have the babies, raise them, and I can take care of them financially, too. Where are they going to go? What's going to happen to men? >> I mean, it's happening now. They're pulling back. They're pulling back because they're saying, "Well, I guess nobody needs me." So, you know, it would be a lovely world if we could say, "Well, they should just do it for themselves, you know, the sake of themselves." But I just don't think men do that. I think they need incentive. And um the greatest incentive incentive of all has always been providing for a family. And I think it's just been disastrous for them honestly >> that they've been told we don't need that anymore. >> Yeah, there's some interesting paradoxes here that um deadbe dads, fathers that don't contribute much u almost universally even by feminists seen as not good. It would be better if you were contributing more especially financially and making it easier on the wife. But also, it's put forward that women shouldn't need to rely on their male partner and that they shouldn't really be looking for their financial stability that much at all because I have my thing going on and you can be a stay at home dad. >> Yeah. >> And similarly, there's a lot of complaints around the lack of maternity leave in the US, which I think is [ __ ] barbaric. Like, it's insane. And also that your career is the most important thing that you'll ever do in your life. And that if you are not working as a mom. I have a friend who um had a bunch of kids. Then her and her husband stopped and she was working while they had the first ones. And then the most recent one, she decided to be a stay at home mom. And she went to a play date with her three-year-old, the newest one, and a bunch of other moms. And they were all working moms. >> And one of the moms turned to her and she said, "You know what? I I really wish that I'd known you while you were working, you know, while you had a lot going on. And she said it felt like she's never felt that hurt by another comment from someone. So, I'm glad you brought that up because that [sighs] I mean, you've really hit a nugget there of what makes so many women today feel that they can't succumb to their inherent desire to just be a mom. And I say just on purpose, not because in their minds, it's just being a mom. And I I'm kind of been here all >> to not need to be anything more than a mother. >> Yes. And I've been like, this is the whole thing. This is it. This is why we're on the planet. This is to build relationships, build a family. There is work that goes into this. It doesn't kids don't just come about while you go do your thing, you know. It's it's work. And because it's not work that is paid, um we as we as we are today as a country that is materialistic, individualistic, all about stuff, status, >> we don't value it anymore. We don't value anything that doesn't um have a nice giant paycheck associated with >> it doesn't generate economic return. Yeah. >> And this is new. I mean really this is new like this is new in the la I don't know I want to say I want to say quarter of a century. I've been writing about this since for about 25 years. Um and it it's been interesting to see where things were with this subject then and now. It's just gotten worse and worse and worse in terms of our val values and this materialism that we live in today. And it's so twisted that when you start with that base of money, money, money, status, career, whatever, you're never going to be successful in your professional life and in excuse me, in your personal life and in your relationships because your focus is on the wrong thing. I mean, this is true for men and women by the way. >> Your your position here, it's probably worth restating it if it's not obvious. What you're saying is that your family life will be more important and more rewarding to you than your professional life. Because if you don't have that frame or if you're unaware of that frame, none of this makes sense. >> Exactly. That's exactly what >> the only other caveat here, which we need to get on to at some point, is well, there are material constraints. I need to have food on the table. I need to have a roof over my head. So, it's not just I can live my life by my values exclusively. There are also genuine material Yeah. Exactly. >> Right. We got to talk about things around it that will >> But your point here is >> start with that base. Correct. Start with that value at the at the nucleus. >> In your in your experience, how many women have you worked with? >> I don't know. I mean, I I've been coaching for about 5 years. Um, and then the women I heard from before that were all from my book. So, thousands of thousands, >> not one-on-one with thousands, but I've heard from thousands over the years for sure. >> Yeah. Um, in your experience, how true is it that women realized that their career was the most important thing and that the family thing didn't really matter that much? >> Zero. >> I mean, there's a selection effect. They're coming to you for a reason, right? The sort of things that you're writing about, the >> independent lean-in ladies are maybe not going to gravitate to your content. But >> I look, nobody is telling women and I get in trouble all the time for this. I've never and nobody that's ever been on this show has told women to have kids that they don't want to have. No one that want that doesn't want to have kids should have kids. In fact, I'm actively opposed to women who don't want to have kids having kids. I think it's a horrible idea. I think it's a horrible horrible horrible horrible idea. However, given that most women end up having kids in the end and >> 86% by the time the end of their maternal um >> but don't forget that >> women who get to the end of their biological clock, they hit menopause and can't have kids but didn't have kids. >> Yes. >> 80% of them didn't intend to be childless. Four out of five. Four out of five women who don't have children after menopause didn't intend >> which shows you how small. >> Correct. So 10% of women can't >> right >> very unfortunate lots and lots of pain associated with that biologically around about 10% of women >> end up realizing that they didn't want to don't want to that is a group as well >> 80% of women >> who don't have kids >> didn't do that by choice didn't intend to >> they're not childless by choice is correct yes yeah >> and uh >> listen instinct is strong we are I mean we are governed by our instincts whether we we don't like to talk about it that way because we want social we want to set up a social system the way we want it to be but it's going against what our desires are and that and to me one of my um one of my lines is that societal uh progress does not undo biological leanings >> I mean we are what we are we have to work with you know I say move with the biological tide not against it the more you move with it the smoother your life will be every time you're trying to move against it you're fighting >> you know I don't want it to be this way. I don't want it to be this way. It shouldn't be this way. And then you're just miserable all the time. >> Do you think mothers are denigrated in modern society? Like are women punished socially for wanting traditional lives? >> Um I don't know if I'd say punished. I just think that they feel that that's the wrong choice to make. That's what I think. that they just cannot shout it from the rooftops, cannot openly talk about it or plan for it. They have to sort of >> You don't think women are seen as secondass citizens? >> Um, when they when they become mothers versus when they stay working. >> To me, it seems it doesn't seem like there's that much. The pedestalization of mothers seems to come from a counterculture standpoint or a tradife >> conservative talking point like some Christian white picket fence thing. I to me I don't see that much prom motherhood content but >> Oh no yes. No I agree with that. >> The immigr lady was on Oprah and she did two million plays a couple of weeks ago. >> If you're asking me whether that whether the nonm motherhood women I don't know how you want to define it gets more play in society. Well yeah that's like 9010. But my art but you know it's always that's mostly because the women who are wives and mothers and even happy doing it are quietly living their lives. They're not in front. They're not sitting here, right? So, you're not going to hear from them. There's millions of them. It's just they're not represented because the people who are represented in the media, not so much alternative media, but all these years in mainstream media, are the minority of women for whom family is not the focus. That's really important to understand because prior to YouTube and and social media and all of that, all of the information was coming from this small group of women who do not represent the average woman. And that's why it's skewed and makes the masses of women feel like there's something wrong with them when in fact they're the norm and those women you're hearing from are not. >> Oh, they're the most influential. >> The most influ Exactly. >> Yeah. You say who you marry and how that marriage fares will have more of an effect on your happiness and well-being than anything else that you do. >> Do you think women are aware of this? >> No, I don't I don't. Where would they hear it? [laughter] Who's saying it to them? I mean, you're not allowed to talk about it in when when really when would they hear it if their parents aren't passing that on? Seriously, if their parents are not passing that on [sighs and gasps] or some family member, they're not going to hear it in the media. They're not going to hear it at school. They're not going to hear it on the Where would you hear it? >> Well, the Disney movies wouldn't be pushing that kind of a meme as much as it would have done in the '9s, maybe the 2000s. >> I mean, look, the reality is you can you can change your career, you can change a job. People do it all the time. You can shift your interests and all of that, but who you marry, if you have children with them, you are tied with them until you die. If you have children, now obviously there's divorce, but a who wants to promote that? That's not really, you know, any what anybody wants to do. And B, you're you've created a family and so you are you are linked. So it has more impact on what direction your life takes than your than a career choice because again you can change a career. You can't just change out a husband or a wife. I mean people try all the time but doesn't really work very well. Second marriages are notoriously more flimsy than first, third even more so. Fourth even more. I mean just go down the line. It's not it's not really an answer for most people. So, we need to give it, in my opinion, the weight that it deserves and the attention that it deserves. And we're so afraid to talk about it. And that says so much about where we are today in what we value that we can't even openly talk about what's great about marriage. >> I mean, >> if it's the most important decision that someone's going to make is >> if they want to make it. I'm not telling you you have to make it. Yeah. If you don't want to get married, don't get married. But most people do. Most people do get married eventually. >> If it's if it's as important as it is for the people who want to do it. >> Yeah. >> Isn't that strong evidence against rushing into a marriage? >> Um, no. I would say well I don't think anybody should rush into marriage for sure but I I would say it's an argument for early education about marriage and early education about um gosh there's so much education that young people don't get when it comes to this subject because again we're not allowed to talk about it. Um, take the fertility crisis. You know, we don't we're not allowed to talk about the fact that even >> you're my friends. Yeah. >> That you have a biological clock. I mean, why should I not talk about that? It's I can't change it. I didn't make it. It just is, right? So, let's work with it. Let's create a life that works with what is, not with what we wish could be. >> And so, that's a taboo subject to say that. You can't tell that to women, you know. So, okay. Well, the reality is a 40-year-old man can marry a 30-year-old women's woman and still have a family. And it's not going to be the same if a woman's 40 and looking for a husband. And let's talk about that. >> Even though it's painful to talk about or whatever. >> What does dating with purpose look like for modern women? How do you advise women to date? Well, >> you know, things have gotten so bad on that in that department, like so much so over the last 10 or 15 years, really 10 years, that I I'm almost to the point where I'm like, just just get it out on the table in the first three dates, [laughter] >> get what get on the table, >> like what you want and what you're looking for. And you know it it I have this theory that you just you weed out the people who aren't on the same page as you when you just get it on the table for example. Okay. >> Yeah. We're in a date. We're in a date. >> Okay. I mean the first date. No. The first date is just who are you? Hello. Where are you from? What do you like? >> Okay. It's our third date. >> Perfect. Presumably if you're on a third date with someone you are getting into deeper conversations than on the first, right? just by nature of you're talking more so more things are going to come up. You're going to talk about your background presumably and you're going to talk about your history and what you want. I think I guess I did. And naturally in the conversation, you're going to kind of learn whether or not the person is family focused or career focused or wanting something temporary or wanting something permanent. I feel like by the third date you would know that. Do you disagree? >> No. And so why there's so much pretending going on, so much fear. >> So imagine imagine for a second that we're on the date. Let's role play this. And you're going to say you're going to ask me some of the questions that you think are important for for women to ask. >> You didn't prepare me for this, Chris. >> I [laughter] look, you you've taught enough women how to do it. Put your cards on the table. >> I mean, tell me about your you know, if it didn't come up naturally, tell me about your childhood. Tell me about your parents. Are your parents married? Let's have the conversation. Are your parents married? >> Why is that? Why is that important? >> Because it's going to skew how you think about marriage probably. >> Okay. >> Do you have a good impression of it? Do you have a bad impression of it? >> All right. What else? >> Um what um and then about your work? What what tell me about your work? You know, um where are you with things? What I mean it sounds this sounds more like a um business meeting, but I I it would be more natural than that. You'd be talking about what you like and what you do for work >> and that would tell me where you are in the scheme of things. And if you asked me, depending on where I was, that would tell you a lot about me. Um, uh, let's see, you go all the way back to my 20s, I'll just tell you with my husband, I was a teacher. Um, and so he knew right away that I love children. >> He knew that, well, I was married before, so that really that there's a great example of just something that comes up naturally. So, oh well, what happened? Well, and then you get into different values and priorities, which is what happened with my first marriage, and he wanted different things. Oh, well, well, then what do you want? Well, I want to have children. I want to be home with them. That ding ding ding ding ding ding is going to tell the guy, "Well, okay, she wants to be home with him. I guess we're going to live on a one-inccome family if I stick with this girl." >> What's wrong with that? I mean, it it just gets it out, you know? And if you don't want it, >> great. >> So, you should be asking for the next person. You should be asking things like, "Do you want kids? How many?" >> Yes. But it doesn't necessarily have to be so directed. Like I said, it would come up naturally like like I just explained. And he knew just from what I said without having to say, "Do you want that?" You know, >> the the the the audience are charismatic autists. So, they understand they they understand how to get something across in a normal way whilst being highly [laughter] abnormal internally. >> Okay. 95% of people don't get enough fiber, which is why Momentous built Fiber Plus, because hitting your daily fiber target through food alone is actually kind of hard, even harder than your last toilet trip. Fiber isn't just a digestion thing. It's the foundation of your gut health, which drives how well you absorb nutrients, how stable your energy is, and how quickly you recover. If your gut isn't dialed, everything else you're doing is working at a fraction of its potential. Fiber Plus is a threein-one formula built to address digestion, gut barrier strength, and blood sugar stability all at once. That's why I plan to make my next big dump momentous. Best of all, they offer a 30-day money back guarantee. So, you can buy it and try it for 29 days, and if you don't love it, they'll give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom a checkout. That's l i v o m n o.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom a checkout. I I I think you're right. I think that being intentional with with dating is one of the most important things because I think about basically the way that the human attachment system works like not anxious avoidance secure but the human romantic attachment system is basically one big psychedelic trip that hopes that you can attach yourself to this person sufficiently quickly while you're in the drug state >> before you get to the my brain's come back online stay and I wonder how many people I started hanging out with this person and and and you know they were nice and hot and I kind of got a bit obsessed with them. They used to text me all the time and then you know we just started hanging out a bit more and then we we didn't really move in but we started staying over at each other's houses a bit and then we decided well we might as well move in and that was you like 9 months or something and then and then we got Golden Retriever cuz we thought for Christmas he'd get me a golden retriever. I've always wanted a golden retriever and then and then yeah we we just sort of stayed together and things kind of became comfortable and you know we settled into and then we just thought well like you get engaged that's what people do you get engaged and then we you know the mar wedding came along and things were okay and then you we had the first kitten before you know it you've fallen backward into a relationship and a cohabiting situation and a dog and an engagement and a marriage and kids that at no point you actually chose >> 100% >> you didn't choose choose this thing. This person was around you. They were in your proximity while you didn't have any serotonin in your body. >> That's exactly right. And that is why I have been against cohabitation from day one. And I was saying it from a in a different way cuz people it wasn't from a religious perspective or a sex pers perspective. It was it doesn't it it doesn't serve you well to do that for exactly the reason that you described. People often slide into marriage as a result of everything you just described as opposed to making a conscious well thoughtout decision in advance. >> This is who I want to marry. And you need objectivity for that. You need separation. You need to go home to your own space. >> Advice people to do instead like >> not live together. Date and live in their own. No. I mean once they're engaged >> that's fine. Once you've made it's about making the decision. You make the decision from a distance from living in your own space. >> Will you marry me? Yes. M and then go about your business. But if you do it before, it's like you said, it's all skewed because, well, you're here, we're in it now. >> You're lapping as a married couple without having actually got the wedding done, which makes you think that the wedding becomes more of a formality than a decision. >> It's just a natural progress. We're already kind of married, right? We're already doing it. I mean, how many people have gone, well, you know, we're already kind of doing it. That's a really I've never even thought about it that way. that the cohabitation effect, which you're probably familiar with, >> that gets explained away by a variety of different reasons, but I've never thought about it as keeping you and your partner separate until you make the decision to be engaged. Because what lots of people would say is, "I'm not going to marry someone that I don't know if I can live with them." >> No, but it doesn't >> But the difference is you can call off an engagement way easier than you can call off a marriage. And if you're saying the decision that you make is actually the engagement one, right? the once you're on that set of train tracks, the marriage sort of comes along for the ride, but it is a reversible decision. Significantly more reversible than getting >> the [ __ ] family together and all of the things and then you've done this big ceremony and >> um >> if you say you shouldn't make the decision of the engagement, you shouldn't make the proposal until you're sure that this is a good thing to do. >> And the best way to be sure is to have most of your faculties and logic intact, which means that keeping a little bit of distance is a good idea. And I'm sure that people are going to spend weeks together traveling and and going on holiday and staying together and stuff, but permanent locked in living together >> kind of causes you to fall backwards into marriage without thinking about it because it's a natural progression. But then you have still this window >> of a testing ground of okay, can we live together? Like can we lock this in from >> uh engagement up until marriage? That means you're not getting uh slipstreamed. You're not secretly getting the marriage thing pushed along, but it does allow you to go, >> "Oh, [ __ ] hell." Like, I didn't realize that this was going to be such a big deal and maybe this is something that >> you mean during that engagement period. >> Yes, exactly. >> Um >> I wonder what the stats are on if there are any stats on Well, maybe that's maybe that's what you're looking up. I with you if you called off the engagement. Is that what you want to know? Yes. Once once you're engaged in living together. >> Yeah. My point my point is just living together. >> Yeah. My point is just Yeah. engaged in living together. If you don't live together until you're engaged, it means that you're not forced to get engaged because you're living together. >> And if you live together during the engagement, it still is a moderately reversible door. If you go, "Fuck, this does not work." Because most people's and mine mine I'm unmarried, right? My my concern would be what you're telling me that I'm going to not just get engaged but get married to this person without knowing if we could live together. That seems like a large risk. What if our lifestyles are incompatible? What if we >> give you an example because you know there were eons when people didn't live together until they got married, right? More so than there were people who did >> and they stayed married more than we do today. >> That's true. >> They did. >> I'm not convinced that that's necessarily because of this reason. >> No. No. No. No. No, no, no. But I'm saying my question would be what do you think they did? What what do you think it was horrible? What what do you imagine would it would be like if you moved in after you were married as opposed to living together? What what are the kinds of things? >> Because isn't that is doesn't marriage require you to figure that out anyway for the rest of your life? >> To a degree it does. I I I think what people have, and I'm probably speaking for an entire generation of young men and women who have an ambient fear around there being some fundamental incompatibility that I have with my partner, which is only revealed once we live together. I don't think that's unreasonable to think that it might be the case, that there might be something in there. But I understand what you mean, which is if you've spent enough time together, you've stayed over each other's houses, you've spent weeks and maybe even months traveling together and doing things and stuff like that, you know what their sleep pattern? >> Yeah. So, what do you mean by like what are the things you learn? Like you mean dishes? I mean, stupid things. I mean, >> I mean, yeah. Your level of tolerance for being together for very extended, very compacted periods of time. I mean, how many uh marriages did we see break up during co >> because people were spending an amount of time together that they hadn't been exposed to previously? >> And I have to assume that maybe the same thing might be true if someone had never lived with their partner. >> Do you think there's a person with whom that wouldn't happen if you were together all the time that you would love to be with 24/7? Do you think there's a person that you that would not be an issue? >> It's a shame that I'm not gay cuz I've got a couple of friends that I'd happily do that with. [laughter] Um, I I've hung out with a lot of friends for a long time without any like distraction and it's been [ __ ] sick. Uh, it's just the like the penis thing gets to me. But, um, >> you know what I mean? I'm saying, in other words, you said you wouldn't know whether or not you could live >> with the person, >> the level of compatibility. >> Um, >> yeah. And I'm trying to understand why that wouldn't have been ironed out with everything you described, staying over each other's houses. >> You're right. You're right. I think it's uh >> if it's about being with them all the time because it's so much space together. Well, that's going to be the case with whoever you marry, right? So, is there a person whom you could spend that much time with and it wouldn't matter at all or is that just human nature? >> Yeah. Again, it's rub up against each other. >> It's trying to avoid some of the huge issues. [snorts] Anyway, uh just this cohabitation effect, uh divorce rate for people who cohabited before marriage 31.4%, divorce rate for people who did not cohabitate before marriage 25.9%. Earlier research often found premarital cohabitation associated with roughly 20 to 50% higher divorce risk depending on controls and demographics. Um the sliding versus deciding that's exactly what you're talking about. >> So the unclear commitment is a really and inertia is the same thing. >> Yeah. Um unclear commitment is a really interesting one which is uh one of the explanations for the cohabitation effect is that what both partners are doing is saying you're good enough for right now. >> You're good enough for us to live together but you're not good enough for me to get engaged to at the moment. So it is a an it's an amount of commitment but it's not the commitment right that everybody's looking for. Um, but obviously there's a big one of the criticisms of the cohabitation effect is that it's a selection effect. Like people who don't live together before they get married includes a whole host of very religious communities who've got that's true much most stringent rules around divorce. They've got a culture that supports marriage in a different sort of a way. The kinds of people who wouldn't live together before also are maybe likely to be virgins or less socioexual or there is something about that kind of person. But I also think that it's too big of a difference between 20 and 50% increases in divorce because of cohabitation. There has to be something about cohabiting which causes that impact. >> And of course the studies have been done as you I mean >> um the sliding versus deciding is not small. That's a huge piece of it. I mean you >> I've never heard that before. It's such a cool >> slide you slide into it because you're already there. And the reasons why you shack up, let's say, are different from the reasons why you get down on one knee and ask someone to marry you for the rest of your life. Those are two different decisions completely. They don't really have anything in common. So, you started out with this sort of flimsy thing and then you can't really figure out if this is the one because you're already doing it. And that's where the sliding >> and that's the inertia thing, too. This is just momentum. Yeah. >> We've already started to Well, we you know, we're paying for the rent together >> and maybe they bought a house. That's even Don't ever buy a house with somebody you're not married to. That's a big >> Don't ever buy a house with somebody you're not married. >> No. Don't do anything financial that binds you if you're not married. You're gonna It's a It's a It's a really dumb idea. I don't know how else to say that. [laughter] >> Okay. So, women dating well, >> dating with purpose. >> Dating with purpose or don't date at all. I mean, just date with and get it out on the table and you will weed out. It's selective. If they don't want it, no hard feelings. Bye. That's fine. Are you familiar with the idea of a [ __ ] test? Do you know what that is? >> From part three. >> Yeah. It was the women >> women to the men that [ __ ] test their men. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> See if they are strong enough. >> Push their buttons. Exactly. Uh I had an equivalent when uh I was dating, which was I would send weird psychology articles >> to the girl that I was talking to to see what she would respond with. I'm like, look, this is kind of important to me. My work is something that I care about and I think is interesting and marriage is basically one big [ __ ] long podcast. It's a huge conversation that lasts for 20,000 to 30,000 hours >> and um >> still having it. >> It's important to me and relationship my relationships have failed in the past because I haven't had much or enough >> interest in that same >> to talk about with my partner and that means >> uh it's really important that we can get on the same page. So, I would almost over signal weird psychology articles up front in the same way as you're saying get it all out on the table. I think that's great. >> Like obviously there is an upper bound of how weird you should be. >> You can be too weird, >> right? You can like maybe don't talk about your farting problem and your athletes on the first date. >> No. However, I do think, you know, being you relatively unapologetically you with the intentions that you have and the things that you're interested in >> uh is good to get out early, >> especially before you've had sex and before you've gone too far down the line. What do you have to lose? >> Send the Psychology Today articles before you had sex. You already >> Yes. >> You might not believe me, but this is what peak sleep optimization looks like. I'm not talking about the night gown. That's just for sex appeal. I'm talking about my eight sleep. The eightle pod 5 comes with a smart cover you throw on your mattress that actively cools or heats each side of the bed up to 20°. And now they've added the world's first temperature regulating duvet and pillowcase. So you've got 360° coverage for deep uninterrupted rest. It's like being Walt Disney without the cryogenic chamber and the racism. Best of all, their autopilot feature learns your sleep patterns and makes adjustments to improve your sleep in real time. It even detects when you're snoring and lifts your head a few inches to help you breathe better. That's why eight has been clinically proven to add up to 1 hour of quality sleep per night. They have a 30-day sleep trial, so you can buy it and sleep on it for 29 nights. If you don't like it, they will give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to $350 off the Pod 5 by going to the link in the description below or heading to eight.com/modernwisdism and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's eigle.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom a checkout. Okay. So, what do you think about timing? Have you talked to women about how long you should date before engagement, be engaged before marriage, marriage before kids? Is that something that you consider? >> Um, I mean, I get asked about it and I don't have any hard line about it. I think that it I I think it can be different for different people and I think the circumstances matter. Um, and how old you were when you met and what you're doing and what your background was like and what who how you are as a person. So, I don't think there's a hard line. For example, I knew my first husband for five years before we married and we were married four years and divorced, no kids. >> I married my husband, current husband, only husband that I think of when I think of husband is um a year after I met him. So he asked me 6 months after we met. >> Now, now I was 29 and he was 33. Mhm. >> So I do think it speeds up in so far as you it's just but there were a lot of circumstances there that to somebody else that might sound fast but actually and it was but the circumstances were in place that made it made made it make sense. >> How long was because I had been with five years sorry with the other one obviously I had a a thing that well that didn't work either. So in my mind I'm like well I guess >> how long were our kids after the marriage? >> I was married at 30 had a daughter at 32 and a son at 35. >> Yep. Cool. Okay. Um All right. So, you've got this situation where perhaps a woman is going to have to go to their husband and say, >> "I want to stay home. >> I want to stay at home." I wonder how many men I think this is probably increasingly true. I wonder how many men are going to feel indignant or not seen in the fact that the lean-in quite masculine energy woman that they got into a relationship with who maybe they were trying to encourage into her softness and her femininity for a long time and battle against and perhaps subdued some of the desires that they had around well you know she's on a career thing and I guess I not that's not the kind of life that I'm going to have. So, they've kind of got into this expectation and maybe even tried to >> suggest and and encourage that softness and that femininity to come through only for them to find out after kids that they were right but early. [laughter] >> I haven't had that exact same scenario that you just described come up um in coaching anyway. But uh because usually it's >> from the woman's side. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> It might not be something that they would freely admit. No, but it's >> I was a lean in boss lady type energy for a long time and he actually asked me to do this a while ago and >> totally and and I actually I actually read a book called The Alpha Female's Guide to Men in Marriage. I don't know if you saw that and that's all about how the type A masculineized hard charging woman can become softer. It's a whole book about how to become soft. >> Fascinating. What's the What are the key takeaways from that? >> Oh gosh. Um there >> I'm aware it's an entire book to be summarized but >> it was two 20 2017 Chris that was so long ago. Um no I the the gist of it is there's just a lot of little examples there of ways to um >> soften your approach and delivery so that it's received better. Um and to understand that all those skills that you mastered and used to be successful at work which absolutely works >> in public >> really well in the marketplace. Yeah. are a complete disaster at home. That that the skills that you have mastered are the exact opposite skills of what you need to make this work. >> And that is why so many I think >> Wow, you really write unpopular books. >> I really do. >> I mean, they sell, but like they're culturally horrendous. >> They're horrendous. >> You're actually quite toxic. Yeah, >> I really am. [laughter] It's sort of like what's wrong with me? you know, like um I you know, it's most of what I write comes from either personal experience or things that I've seen that um either well a lot of writers are writing what they're working through themselves, you know, so there's that piece and >> research is research. >> Research is me search and then also just knowing things and you can't unknow them and you hear the lies that are spread and you just can't shut up about it. I mean, that's basically my writing career. And so I'm like, that's not true. You know, [laughter] >> and I want to be helpful to people who are busy living their lives, doing their thing, and unless you do this research, you really don't know that what you're being fed is crap. You know, it bugs the hell out of me. So that's that's my motivation. But anyway, um yeah, I wrote So, so that book is basically saying, look, everything you've been taught to do works great in the marketplace, but if you want to be successful in your love life, you need to develop a whole different set of skills cuz that's not going to work because if you've married a masculine, you know, just a man, >> um you're going to, you know, he doesn't want that. So, it's going to and you don't really, you need the yin and the yang. You need the masculine. There's a line in in your new one. When women think and behave like a man, conflict in a relationship is inevitable. >> Yeah. >> Men and women. Um, the biggest distinction I feel like between them when it comes to communicating is that there needs to be receptivity on the part of the woman. Um, that I think is lacking when there are natural and I can speak from personal experience with this. If you're a natural arguer, which clearly I am, that's what I do with my work. So, this really did come from my own space. Um, I always want to say the argument the other side, you know, and it bugs the hell out of my husband, but that's I sometimes that's not necessary or needed in that space. >> Yeah. Disagreeability is actually it's it's positively correlated with earning professionally. >> Correct. >> Because it allows you to advocate. I need I need a I need a pay rise. You I deserve a pay rise. >> That uh interview with Jordan Peterson, >> oh my god. >> Yeah. >> Four times I must have seen it. Just brilliant. one of my favorite interviews of all time. And I loved it when he said, you know, well, you're disagreeable. It's working great for you here. >> But Jordan, that was a great Jordan. [laughter] >> I mean, but you take that woman in that space, the way she was behaving, think about everything she was doing in that moment and take her home in her [laughter] relationship and how that would go over, you know, it just it just wouldn't. >> Um, so it's it's hard. you just, you know, women used to be a lot more naturally feminine and they were encouraged to be and they were more receptive and they were softer and they dressed like a woman and all of that's changed and I'm just saying, you know, it wouldn't hurt to bring a little bit of that back if you want to have peace in your relationship. >> Jared, can you uh quickly YouTube um Whitney Cummings, Chris Williamson, a challenge, and it should be a short video. It should be assured it did like gerillion plays but um Whitney basically explains highpowered comedian lady lean in Hollywood exec you lots of things and uh had got deeper into her 30s and was still dating so had maybe developed some of that you know professional >> uh pushiness and um yeah that top left 5.4 4 mil. That one. Yeah. >> I dated a professional athlete, great at what he does. There's not a lot of room for emotion to be involved. It's either true or it's not true or you're going to get your neck broken. He could date whoever he wanted or sleep with whoever he wanted. And we were like arguing about something. And I was like, "Well, why would you date me if like I'm the person you date if you want like a challenge?" And he just went, "Why would any man want a challenge in their relationship?" In that moment was like, "Oh my god, I thought it was like hot to you. I thought it was like what guys wanted. I thought it was like feisty. Like I apologize. >> Well, especially if you're dating somebody that is high performing in any realm that has goals. If you're working that hard in the office, you really want to come home and be like, "Right, there's that to-do list done. I wonder what fires I need to fight when I step through the front door as well." >> That's that's the alpha book that I wrote. That's exactly it in a nutshell. Like, who wants that? That's not going to work. And so, there's a lot of this going on in relationships because of this. What's the truth about the financial requirements for raising a kid? >> Oh my. Well, it's really not that expensive in the early years. For one thing, you just need diapers and formula, right? Um over the years, the long, you know, if you're looking at the whole 18 years, there's a financial piece to it for sure, but it's also not mandatory to do in a certain fashion. In other words, you don't need to have a lot of money to have children. you need to want to have a family and utilize uh the monies that you have to make that work. So it's not like in other words don't have children because I can't send them to private schools and I can't send them to college and I can't buy them all the nice things and we can't go to Disney or whatever. You're you don't need all of that even if it seems like everybody's doing that around you um in order to have children. So like in the early years for us there was no we we didn't live the way we did say when they were in high school when they were early when they were young. I mean you you you live on less you know you make those choices and you make tradeoffs and that's worth it to you if you value and you if you value family and you value having a person at home then or a mom at home or whatever. It's just a no-brainer. Like it never occurred to me, oh well, I can't do three vacations a year, so I shouldn't do this. Or, oh, I have to send in a private school to be able to do it. Just you work with what you have. >> Why do you think it's the case? If that's true, if it's not as expensive to raise a child as people think, why >> doesn't have to be doesn't have to be. Why do so many women and and men too, but primarily women uh site >> economic requirements and economic instability is one of the main reasons that that we can't afford to have a child? Who could have a child in this economy? >> So, I I have a I feel like this is the fourth time I've said this. I have a theory that um that social media has been extremely harmful [gasps] in a lot of ways, but especially for people's perspective of what's real and what's not. And believing that um a if someone says it, it must be true. B if everybody that you're seeing looks like they're saying this and living this way, well, that's the only way to live then. You know, I this is it. can't do it. When you're not exposed to that, um you have a more insular, which is good, insular in this sense, >> um perspective just with your own little community and your own family. It's just not it's just been really harmful in my in my opinion to see all these lives that look like they're the norm and it makes you feel inadequate. And I think that plays into that believing that um you you have to live this certain way to have children. No, you don't. I mean, you can do things your way. If you can't afford that lifestyle, that doesn't mean you don't have kids. I mean, is the argument that kids are harmed by that? You know, that's another interesting thing. Kids don't need all that. >> It's interesting. I wonder whether people think that kids would be more harmed by not having three vacations a year on more harmed by not having mom at home. >> What do you think they would say? >> That's an kind of a trite example. That's a silly example. I don't think that even the more extreme people but you know certainly um >> I don't know conversations or I don't know what it is that people think that they need maybe the size of the house like certainly housing is a big deal right so few people want to raise a family in an apartment >> they want to have a house they maybe want to have a little bit of garden yard to play in with the kids and >> lots and lots of people are in housing that is not built for kids like do you want to raise a family in a [ __ ] apartment. Really? >> I mean, if you ask most people, they're going to say no, right? >> Mhm. >> But it doesn't have to be a, as they say these days, forever home either. It can be a starter home. >> I mean, the starter homes are really expensive, too, these days. But, I mean, I mean, you can raise a kid in the first, I don't know, five, six, seven, eight years in a three-bedroom house, a two-bedroom small like, 1500 foot house if you had to. I mean, I It's just hard because I >> It's also Look at Sorry for interrupting. Think about what people are optimizing for. People are optimizing to be near the coffee shops and like the cute place that they go for brunch with the girls. You go >> maybe this is a period like the kids aren't going to school. So if you're okay to move within the next 5 years or something. I mean the market's like a [ __ ] nightmare at the moment. At least in Austin's you seen Austin's market Jared? It's like two or three times as many sellers as there are buyers. The craziest sex ratio in history. Um anyway, that that's one of the things that people optimize for that they probably wouldn't want to not, but you go, "Hey, if you move, [ __ ] me. If you're prepared to get 30 minutes outside of Austin, you can get a lot of house, like a [ __ ] ton of house for your money. >> Exactly. Bingo." So again, it's just be willing to go out 30 minutes more. There's so many options that aren't entertained if it's not exactly what you envision or want. so much about wanting what you want right now instead of there's a stepping stone to that and that a lot of that has to do with yes inflated expectations for sure again social media plays a role into that but also the longer you live without getting married and having kids going back to what we were saying before the greater your lifestyle >> oh my gosh you're making it really hard on yourself in my opinion actually doing it that way because everything looks >> harder in some ways we've always said that's the thing you're supposed to do for decades we've saying, "Wait, wait, wait. Do everything in your 30s." You know, there's just this whole theory philosophy around that that I don't agree with, but that's the philosophy and it's been touted for a long time now. But again, nobody ever talked about the flip side of that, which is what we're talking about is you getting used to the certain life >> hugely. Yeah. I mean, the opportunity to grow to become accustomed to a particular type of life. It it so much of what we're dealing with at the moment is people getting what they want, not what they need. And it's not what they want, it's what they think they want. >> And puppeted by and this is true for all of us, right? Like we're momemetic social creatures. Like it's the way that it works. Uh friend gave me a really interesting thought experiment that kind of relates to the um kids might be better off having three holidays a year than having mom at home or something like that. >> That >> imagine that you had a situation where two moms decided that they were going to start up a solo business looking after children. So they were going to become nannies and each mother was going to look after the other's child and pay each other the exact same amount for it >> or the mother would stay at home and just look after their own. In one of these, she's a self-starting business person >> that is praised and has a lot going on from my friend's situation >> and in the other they're just a mom. >> And the it's such a cool example because it kind of shows the expectation or like if it was two kids, no one would be a full-time nanny for one kid with one kid, but to do it for two or do it for three, you go, "Well, I can fund my child care with me doing child care." And it's just I don't know. But I look I I >> Sorry. Go ahead. >> I'm just aware that I'm horribly on the outside pissing inside of this tent. But like >> what sense does that make? That's basic. What sense does what you were just describing make? >> Yeah, of course. Look, I I'm I'm I'm allowed to comment on stuff. I'm sat in the stands throwing hurling mud and muck at people that are trying to make this work. I am trying to be very empathetic about it, >> but it really differentiates. I mean, again, that's exactly something you would learn about somebody when you're dating them, right? Are you doing this because this is what you value? In other words, basically it comes down to that is what do you value? What do you want? >> If the most important thing to you is being present in your children's life and building that relationship and being responsible for that person's character and development and all the rest, I don't care about any money or any other things. Like that's that's it. That's the focus. M >> the person who has to have the paycheck in order to feel good is going to have a different approach to all these decisions, the these family decisions that you're making with her. >> And so much of it is >> the inertia. It's the momentum that you've had of >> what did my friends value? What was my lifestyle like when I was younger? >> What did I use social media in order to be able to advertise online? Like I'm not going to be able to talk about my travels anymore. I'm not going to be able to show where we're going for trips. I'm not going to be able to wear the outfits and go out. There's a lot of costs in the sort of marketplace that people are inhabiting. There's lots of costs and a lot of costs. >> And there are costs and this is, I think, important. There are a lot of costs that women pay that the men don't. Like the guys can still, six months into baby, the guys can still go out and see their friends and go watch the game on a weekend. That's going to be much tough. That's going to be like a oh my god, this is the first time in six months that I've been able to go out. >> Yeah. >> For mom. That's not going to be the same. There are requirements and lifestyle sacrifices that women have to make that men don't. And that being that social media and the current currency is attention and and status and >> right [gasps] >> well >> that's a big hit to hit what the rest of the world valued you for. the latter being the most important piece of that because there's so much opportunity for growth and learning about this whole piece of the world that you've turned your mind away from that you're going to learn by not getting a paycheck and caregiving >> and um um throwing yourself into this space that's so unfamiliar to you and scary at first. But the things that I hear from people who have done that is oh my god I mean I wouldn't have changed that like you said that you said how [clears throat] many people how many women would change their mind or >> Yeah. >> Um the growth is there but we just don't again we don't value it and we're not allowed to talk about it >> and you don't advertise it in the same way. >> No. So all they hear are the costs. >> There's this whole other piece that's that's missing. Um, I mean, there there really isn't any way to explain to somebody when you're home with a 2-year-old, let's say, and they're climbing the steps one at a time, and you've already been home and you're bonding, and you're doing the attachment, you know, it's all it's all in place, and she or he is 2 years old, and he's climbing steps for the first time, and you're, of course, behind him so he doesn't fall. And each time he climbs to the next step, he'll turn around and see if you're there. Then he'll go back and he'll take the next step and he turns around to see if you're there. And by the time it's done, you have just created a human in that little space there of trust >> that is going to carry them for the rest of their life. And those are the things that are intangible and that nobody talks about. And you have to actually do it to see it. >> And I just want people to know about it before so they understand what what's really going on there. What do you think the lessons are that men and women are told about the value of money versus time at home? I don't think there's any attention paid to the value or the significance of time at home. I think there is only focus on money. I don't I mean we have never been more materialistic ever in history than we are today. And once you get on that uh what do you uh treadmill I guess it's you're just it's almost um it's like autopilot. You just don't even realize there's a whole world outside of you. It's called life, right? Life that doesn't you know chores um um errands raising children cooking. There's just this whole world that has nothing to do with earning money. That is like life. It's the stuff life is made of. Somebody's got to do it, which sounds like it's a bad thing to do, but a somebody has to do it. Yes. But also, somebody gets to do it, >> you know, and and with no attention on that, um I don't think that people even um recognize it as there. And then when they do it, they get resentful about it because they're so focused on trying to make money that this all this other stuff I just described is getting in the way of their path that they're on. And it's like that's where the resentment's coming in. But this is actually a job in and of itself, creating a home, raising children, doing errands, cooking. I mean, cooking is a subject in and of itself because we're fast food nation now and people are overweight and they're like, "How did I get this way?" And it's like because no one's in the kitchen cooking anymore. It's so daunting when you're constantly working. No one's going to cook at the end of a 10-hour workday. Nobody. That's when it all started to go downhill. When nobody was home to cook. >> That's interesting. >> The obesity, the childhood obesity, which tripled in the last 50 years, happened at the same time mothers left the home in mass because what do you who do you think was cooking before? When we before when we didn't have um the obesity crisis, why was that? People talk about chemicals and oils and that's all fine and great, but the truth is there was a mom in a kitchen cooking. >> Well, calories are king, right? And if you know what you've put into your food, regardless of the seed oils, >> it's >> it's calories in, calories out. >> Correct. Yeah. And if the kids are getting takeout on the way home, >> it's the lifestyle. It's a lifestyle switch that has happened that has created all these other problems. >> What do you think about There's a big debate around the the double shift for women. the sort of share of housework between men and women. >> Every every every question every question that I ask you, it seems like it kind of comes with it. It it pains you. >> I'm sorry. It's just um sometimes you're asking me some things that I haven't actually talked about or thought about a while, but I've written about extensively, so I just have to pull it out of my mind. Y >> um full-time motherhood includes all of those things that people are now fighting about between each other um husbands and wives or couples about who does more or whatever. If you have somebody at home raising children, those things that we're talking about are going to naturally be part of that lifestyle of raising children. So, for example, when I was home and my husband was working, I would do more child I would do more um household chores because I'm there. I'm physically homebased and there. So, I did the grocery shopping. I did the cooking. He would come home and do the cleaning. He did plenty. He changed diapers. He cleaned. He did all the all he could do on top of his full-time job. But at no point did I fight with him or play tit for tat about who's doing more because you didn't have to because once you've divided it up that way, it's kind of obvious. That stuff only came into play when women started working full-time, too. And now you've got both people doing it. And men and women don't respond to the home stuff in the same way. >> So women think men are supposed to respond the way they would respond. >> But again, my if if you come with the argument that men and women aren't the same and interchangeable, it makes perfect sense. But to them, it's, well, what do you mean we're equal, so I should do this and you should do this? And he's going to step over the sock maybe because he doesn't see it or he doesn't care about it. It's not cuz he thinks you're supposed to pick it up. That's not the point. It's just he doesn't care and you care. And women care more about the home because they're nesters. They're nesters by nature, even if they work. >> There's a cool study that's done that women's level of sexual arousal um based on how tidy the house is that basically if >> if there's not orderliness around the house, >> uh then they can sometimes struggle to switch off. So that's being irritated by the sock is a perfect example of that. I don't know how many socks it takes to turn off your horniness, but maybe not many for some women. Maybe some women are more sock sensitive than others. [laughter] >> My point being that uh there's ele >> on average, let's say. There's another great story I saw on on Twitter was so good. Um a woman had asked the man to do the dishes while he she was out and she came back to find that he'd grouted the shower. He like regrouted the shower. So he'd gone in and fixed all in between all of the tiles and he' done this seal stuff and he came back and was like, >> "Yeah, I'm proud." >> Like so happy for it. And she was mad at him because he didn't do the dishes. And it kind of speaks to this. >> There are certain tasks and roles that aren't necessarily seen by each other >> as important. Yes. Yes. 100%. That is >> aren't even noticed. Like do you think that how how often do you think she thought about the grouting in the shower? >> Never. >> Or the fact that the oil in the car hadn't been changed. >> No. Never. So, and that's that's a big difference between men and women. And that's why the playing tit for tat is so bad. And going back to what you just said about a woman not being able to overlook the sock. a great I always tell men to like if they well you can't do this on any kind of regular basis I guess but if you were to move a wife from the home and get her in a hotel room let's say or just I don't know somewhere else >> that's not the home >> sexually I'm talking about she's going to be able to be more receptive because she doesn't have to tune out everything in her midst which is what you were getting at that needs to be done in the home she's totally in sexual mode because oh I'm in a hotel room or oh I'm at a party or whatever it is you're taking her to is away from that drudgery She pulls away from her sexual desire because you want to go get to that stuff. >> Jared, how old's your kid? >> Eight months. >> Eight months. Okay. Well, there's your hack, dude. If you need to if you need to pipe it a bit more. >> Yeah. >> You just Hey, darling. I've got us an evening in a hotel and and local, you know. Yeah. >> Sick. >> Um, >> report back to me. I I there's a an interesting bit of like old school productivity bro advice which is you shouldn't have your desk inside of your bedroom. There should be a separation of work and sleep because for the exact same reason. But what's interesting here is >> the stay-at-home mom's office is the house. So [laughter] that means, hey, if you're asking me to do something that is different in in energy to what I do here typically, >> uh that might be a bit hard. >> Yeah. Because a woman doesn't feel sexy when she's, you know, cleaning the kitchen. That's not a sexual >> depends what outfit you're in. [laughter] >> Okay. Daycare. [gasps] What do you think about daycare? It's a necessary evil for many people or they think it's a necessary evil. They've got work. They can't be at home with their kids. The maternity leave that everybody, I think, thinks should be given, isn't there? >> What do you think about dayare? >> Daycare was at one time, you know, daycare was originally a Head Start program and it was just initially designed for lowincome families andor one-inccome families who literally had no choice because mom had to go to work. when it opened up, which it did over time, to just anybody who wanted to use it just because regardless of their financial circumstances, that's when it ballooned and became eventually over time just a way of life. Like it just normal. And one of the things that's been really interesting is watching even like I told you, I started this 25 years ago when I was first writing about this. That was at a time when the mommy wars were all raging and it was kind of understood that you had to defend your your choice of using daycare if you were using it. Like people were writing about it because it was instinctively understood that that was not good. >> It was understood. Fast forward 25 years and I have noticed people are talking about it like they're taking a shower, dropping off their 2-year-old in daycare, one-year-old or whatever, six week old, literally like it's nothing. And I look at that and I see what's happened and I this is not this person literally has no idea that daycare is bad. No clue. So, you can't it's it's almost like you can't blame her, per se, because she just doesn't know what she doesn't know. And I truly believe that's where young moms are today. They really have no idea. Daycare is the last place that that littles belong. Littles belong at home with their mom. If not with mom, with dad. If not with dad, then grandma. If not with grandma and nanny. If not with a nanny. A neighborhood small. I mean, daycare is the bottom of the bottom. And >> why >> it's the reason why is it's so giant. It's so un it's um it's too big number one and you have so much turnover and in and out of people coming and going that the attachment that you are trying to replace for what they need in those early years that can only be really done with one-on-one person. It can't be had in an environment like that. they it's way too stressful. There is I mean [sighs and gasps] I think if people go into daycarees really go into them and see what goes on they'd have a better um understanding of what it really looks like. But it's like you're lined up like you're one of a bunch of people and you're just it's it's a pecking order, you know? You're you're a part of a machine almost. there's no all those um needs that need to be met in the early years can't possibly be met in an institutional environment like that. I mean the sleep alone I mean babies need sleep and they need to be on a schedule and they need quiet and they need peace and they need to be cared for in a way that is not possible to replicate in a daycare center and >> because one kid is awake and crying or making noise while another is trying to sleep >> as an example. Yes. Or or 10 people are and you how can you sleep with 10 people, you know? Um or if you're hungry, you're not necessarily going to be fed until they can get to you. >> Or you start to attach yourself to somebody and then that person goes into another room and gets moved or he he or she leaves. She usually she leaves the building altogether after you've started to develop an attachment. And then that that the exhaustion, the mere exhaustion, so all those tears. And by the way, just to clarify, there's a big difference between a couple of hours in an environment like that and 10 hours for a one-year-old, let's say. And people don't delineate or talk about that. There's a massive difference. I mean, a baby can handle an hour or two apart or even an environment like that temporarily if they know that they're immediately, you know, going back to mom. [gasps] But 10 hours being left there, eight hours or whatever is is awful. It's just bad. >> I uh posted a couple of clips with Erica talking about talking about daycare. Some of the [clears throat] interesting sentiments that came back from moms. >> Uh things like my kid loves going to daycare. He he can't wait. He wants to run out of the car or or u like he he's always really happy and and smiley when I drop him off at daycare. What do you think about that? So there are many things that occur in the um drop off pickup scenario with a mom and a baby. I mean nine out of 10 times when you first introduce a baby to that environment, you're going to get tears. Actually both both people are crying usually both mom and the baby. And you'll hear story after or I have anyway of story after story of moms dropping them off for the first time and hysterical all the way to work. I mean just crying. It was horrible. horrible, horrible. Which to me is a signal that something's gone wrong. This is not good. This is not normal. The baby's crying, you're crying. That's something you should pay attention to, not something you should push away, which is what society wants you to do is push it away. It's okay. He'll be fine. [gasps] And what that baby does or child does um in trying to get his needs met and seeing that they're no longer going to be met, they just sort of stop and give up and they're not crying for that moment. And so you think they're fine, but actually they just sort of well gave up because nobody's tended to their needs. That doesn't mean they're fine. It just means they're just quiet. >> In fact, the quiet ones >> sometimes you need to worry about more. This was actively a lady or maybe a few ladies saying um they love it. Like they they they seem actively positive to be going there when I drop them off. >> And and they Well, that would be an older child, not a baby. Yeah. Like a three or foury old. Yeah. And by three, you're fine. By three, you're you can go into preschool. >> But again, um so let's say you have a three-year-old and you are having them in daycare 10 hours a day or something, which is different from preschool, which is just a couple hours in the morning. um which is perfectly age appropriate for a three-year-old. Um there are a lot of repercussions that are also not talked about that may not come in the form of tears and that is the exhaustion piece because you should really still be napping at that point. So they're really really tired and overstimulated from this environment. And then the the child that you're receiving at the end of the day, that's going to bleed over into the rest of the night with the discipline that you're trying to instill because at that point they're so tired, like I always like to it's just pointless to even attempt to discipline a a child who is so tired he's out of his skin. He can't even think straight. He's like drunk. >> So don't even attempt anything. You just have to put him to bed basically. So there's a huge piece of sleep deprivation that is also not discussed with those early years in long care that bleeds over into the home and your ability to parent >> properly and well because of that exhaustion piece or you have to put them to bed right away because they're so tired and so then you don't see them. Then there's that. >> What's an alternative to daycare? Some some households are unable to survive on a single person's income. Mom needs to get back to work at some point or mom wants to get back to work at some point. >> Extend it as long as you possibly can before you do that and exhaust every possible means of care that is not group care in that way. That's family members. That's >> um uh um tag teaming. Some people tag team with their husbands. That's another thing. Some people can do that depending on your job situation where one's in and one's out. It's not great for the marriage, but if you do it temporar because you don't see each other, >> but you could get away with it temporarily, and I've known people who have done that. One's working days, one's working night, so someone's always with at home. That's one thing. Um, but your neighbors are your friends, like trading off with your friends. So maybe your baby stays with your friend while you're working and then her baby's with you. So it's just you and two your your kid and your friend. >> Two on one. >> Yeah. >> The smaller the better. >> Yeah. I mean, look, uh, one of the most interesting conversations I had, there's a a company called Athena that make virtual assistants, and I had the the founder and CEO on, and I was saying having a virtual assistant or an assistant at all is wonderful, but like, how many people have got access to that? That's not that realistic. He said, well, there's lots of ways that you can basically get the exact same function of that just by using your friends. And one of his examples was child care. >> Yeah. >> He says if you want to work one day a week or two days a week. >> Yes. >> You only need one other mom. >> Yes. To >> to alternate. Yeah. Exactly. And like one on two or one on three maybe. Like you can probably get away with that. You can come to our house if or you can go to yours and then hey if we organize our working schedules you could get two days a week of work out. And look, I mean, the days when you're going to be at home outnumbered two to one or three to one by kids, like that's also going to be a pretty like challenging day, but it means that you aren't having to do the daycare thing. It's free. >> Mhm. >> And you've got two day two and a half, you know, okay, you do half of a Wednesday and Thursday, Friday, and I'll do Monday, Tuesday, and half of a Wednesday. >> I'm a big believer that necessity is the mother of invention. And if the daycare system, and it is a system, I mean, it is a what's the word I'm looking for? It's a well, I'm blanking on the name, but uh if it weren't there as an option in >> People would figure it out. >> People would figure it out. They had to back in the day. As I said, we had a Head Start program. We had a thing in place for truly, truly, truly, truly needy families. Of course, there's a lot more needy families today than there was 50 years ago, but you you just you what are you going to do if it's not there? You know, if something isn't there, you go >> to the next thing and you you figure it out. I I believe that >> I think it's just become my issue is more that it's become so normalized that we're not even allowed to talk about the fact that the thing that looks so normal actually is really bad. That's my issue. I just want to be able to talk openly and say actually this isn't good and here's why. >> So that they know cuz truly I believe people don't know. I believe it's come to that. There was a time when people knew instinctively this was not and they could talk about it. But now >> what's the most compelling reason that you give to some a mom who feels like daycare is fine but you think hey this is something that you should know. Um that the most important thing for a child in the first three years of life is to develop the intangibles of love and trust that will then carry them into their own adult relationships later on. So that if they do not become attached to you in those early years or to your al singular alternative person or whatever um that will stay with them for life and it will show up in their relationships later on and that's um it's real. I mean like that's a real thing and it's I think surprising for a lot of people. They just don't know about that. >> It's an interesting duality. Another one of those paradoxes that we were talking about earlier on. Um a lot of people are into therapy. A lot of people love books like Attached by Am Lavine or Jessica Balm's book. Am's got a new one out called Secure. Um >> they just saw they're on my home. Yeah, just got read them. >> Lots of people are very informed on the attachment literature. And a lot of people that are going to therapy are also understanding the fact that hey, my parents maybe didn't care for me in the manner that would have been optimal to give me secure attachment and I'm now having to unpick and unwind some of these things. Well, what are those? Well, you know, they didn't hold me when I needed it. They didn't see my needs without me asking. They weren't understanding. I didn't feel safe and secure. There wasn't consistency, availability, reliability, responsiveness, and predictability, like the five elements of of secure attachment. Those things weren't there. >> But, >> but [laughter] yet, yeah, >> let's not talk about this thing. >> I can pay that forward. It's like I'm going to go to therapy to unpick the patterns from the past because I don't want my kid to inherit my bad patterns, >> but because of the situation that I've constructed or that I need to or feel like I need to from education and employment and lifestyle demands, I am now potentially >> just recreating the thing. not only recreating the thing that happened to me and I don't want, but that I'm actively trying to unpick in an attempt to not pass down. And this is where this is like why I think that when it's said in a sober way, in a calm way, in a gentle way that accepts the challenges and the [ __ ] like really odd economic and cultural situation that young women find themselves in now. that it should be something that if it's if what you're saying is heard properly for what it's supposed to be, it should be pretty wellreceived because look at how [ __ ] hard you're working in therapy. Why? Well, because you want to be happy yourself and you don't want to be, you know, [ __ ] puppeted by these patterns and stuff like that, but because you don't want to pass it down to your future kids, too. Like, you're really, really working hard at this thing. you're just working hard at it within the confines, this model that exists, right? That these are the rules that you play. Well, you earn lots of money to have the therapy so that you cannot pass the patterns onto your kids, but that means that they've got you can't afford to stay at home because you need to. >> So, literally, that's the reason I wrote How to Build a Better Life, which is the my most recent book. And it was it's for women who want to prioritize marriage and love and family, really like have that be the core of their life. And that requires starting early to make the decisions that we've talked about. If you do that, all this stuff doesn't it ceases to exist. That's kind of like the whole point, you know, like if you create this life that's countercultural and not like the way you've been taught to do it, you wouldn't end up in this boat of worrying about repeating the patterns of you like your attachment issues. Um, if it's circled back and understood that daycare is going to create that, then you can stop that in its tracks before it starts. >> At the very least, it's not going to make it better. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, anyway, I just that's there's just a whole different way to do life, I guess, is my point. Um, and that's why I wrote that. And it's it's it's there for the taking, but you've got to be presented with the information and you got to have people willing to talk about it because it's so taboo to talk about. >> Well, you've got a line, live your life, not theirs. >> Yeah. So that was the end of that book and it was essentially saying you're if you're building a life based on what you're told you're supposed to do even if it goes against what you might really want and sometimes you're all the way in before you know that that's true. Um you know you're going to be unhappy. You have to live you have to be satisfied. You have to know what you want, know what you value, build a life that create that has that as its core and not worry about everybody else's. And which is so so hard with I'm going back to social media today. I we didn't have this. You know, social media is new in my I'm 58 so I don't know how long has social media been around. When my kids were little it didn't exist. So I think it was they were >> in high school before >> Facebook's about 20 years. >> Yeah. >> Facebook. >> They were in high school by then. So like being raised just seeing all these images and seeing how other people are living. People that what do you even care about these other people? They don't even know them, you know, or they live across the world. But I certainly can understand when you're young, you're going to see it and be like, I need that. And then your life's going to look terrible in comparison because they've got that. But but they don't have what you have either. So you you have to have perspective on it. So, I think social media has been really, really hard, really destructive actually, for this concept of loving your life and not worrying about theirs. But you really have to keep your eye on the ball to be happy or you're going to be sucked into this other space. >> What do you wish more young women knew if you were able to put a billboard up that all young women would see on their way to work? What do you wish you'd be able to tell them? Um, nothing in your life is going to compare to the euphoria and the satisfaction and the meaning of having a baby and raising that baby and having a family and having that sense of security and peace when the world's going baddy around you and you just have your little home that you've created and nothing you do and no amount of money you're going to make is ever going to compare. But you don't know that yet. But I'll put my uh money on it. Let's put it that way. So, if I'm wrong, what's the worst that's happened? You know, I' I'm wrong. And then um the point is that you have choices. If you if you believe me and you set up your life that way, you will have choices. And that's where I want you to be. >> Heck yeah. Suzan Vancer, ladies and gentlemen, where should people go to keep up to date with everything you're doing? Um, well, they can go to suzanbanker.com and I'm I'm mainly on Substack these days, but everything is at suzanvanker.com. >> Heck yeah. I appreciate you. Thank you for sticking your neck out and touching every third rail in existence. >> Thank you. >> All right, see you next time, everyone. Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, YouTube knows who you are deeply. It thinks you're going to like this one [music] even more. Go on, press