Why You’re Tired, Stressed & Unfocussed (and how to fix it) - Dr Andrew Huberman

Lots of people deal with brain fog and low energy throughout the day. What's your advice for combating that? >> I mean, it's funny. I I'll probably end up saying this 20 times in today's conversation, but if I were to really if I had two minutes with somebody and they said, "What's the thing I can do for my health?" I'd say, "Make the first hour of your day high cortisol and the last hour hour of your day low cortisol." High cortisol in the morning sets you up for elevated mood, focus, and alertness all day long. Allows you to buffer stress better. And it makes sure that your nighttime cortisol is going to be low. If [clears throat] you don't, >> you know, spike that morning cortisol enough in the first one to three hours of your day, you're going to have a high flat cortisol curve. Not good. >> Makes you less resilient to stress, brain fog, less amendable to learning and on and on. So then you just say, well, what can you do? And we can make this very simple. uh bright light especially from sunlight or 10,000 lux artificial light in especially in the first 30 minutes after waking hydration caffeine if you like caffeine exercise in the first three hours of your day if you can right some people can't and then roll into your day at night in that final hour you do everything you can to reverse that you dim the lights especially overhead lights dim your screen you could do the red light thing or the candle light thing you know limit caffeine obviously exercise in the final hour before sleep only if that's the only time you can do it. >> Mh. >> Some people that's the only time. Um, and actually eating in the first three hours of your day, even though I'm a fan of I personally fast in the first three hours of the day, but that actually can also spike cortisol. People say, "Why would eating spike cortisol?" Well, I mean, basically anything that you do that's sort of proarousal, that's about activity is going to spike cortisol. So bookending your day >> with things that spike your cortisol at the beginning and lower your cortisol at the end is really it it really is the if there is a cheat code to life. Now why do I say to life? I mean is it going to make you completely stress resilient? No. Is it going to make you a um able to learn anything you want with ease? No. But what it does is it sets you up for the best possible sleep which makes you more alert the next day of course. It also it anchors this process that I haven't talked about before on any podcast um and frankly that I didn't touch on directly in the book um which is so much of life is about balancing what we call bottom up and top down influences. Bottomup influences would be you know um you want the cookie, you're going to just eat the cookie. You um you know you shouldn't be scrolling as much as you're scrolling, you just keep scrolling. That's those are bottom-up influences. These are um impulses that are driven by hypothalamic and other deep brain structures. >> Then we have thankfully we have top down influences. This is your prefrontal cortex suppressing impulses. Okay. This is the two marshmallow test in kids which by the way a lot of people say was debunked. The debunk was debunked by the way. Yeah. So um the ability to suppress action. It's what I taught my bulldog pit mix strummer. the day I brought him home and it's the basis of everything. You put a piece of food in front of him. He of course wants to take it, right? His prefrontal cortex isn't even online yet. And you take it away until he learns and he learns the first day and never forgets that he has to wait until I say, "Okay, what are you doing there?" It's actually not about making him wait for a treat. It's about making him suppress what feels like anxiety and impulse. And that that wicks out to every type of waiting. So you say, "Wait, or like see you later. I'm going to work." And then you come back and he's not freaking out. He can just now he doesn't have to actively suppress the whole time. But the ability to suppress impulse so much of life, the ability to learn and lean into just enough stress that you trigger learning. The ability to listen when you want to react. The ability to force yourself to get up and work on the book or the thing that you don't want to do. So much of that is top-down influences. And basically being an effective human is about building up those circuits of top down. Now do you have to do them in everything? This is a matter of debate. I think that >> people like Andy Stumpf who I have tremendous respect for. >> Um it's just awesome. I've learned so much from him. I actually made some late latest late stage additions to the book based on a conversation I had with him. So he actually made you know very late in the game. I was like I need to my editors were like you can't do this anymore. Like enough is enough. And I'm like, I want it back or else I'm not signing off on the final draft to put in this. You know, Andy has a number of tools that are that are really useful. But, you know, he has this philosophy that he shares which is >> throughout your day when given the option between the easier thing and the harder thing, do the harder thing. That there's tremendous value in that. It's the make your bed thing. It's the replace the toilet paper roll is the example he gives in his book Drown, which is an awesome book. I highly recommend it. He doesn't pay me to say this. It's just an awesome book. I recommend it to everybody. But these little things like there's that piece of trash on the floor that's this big. Do I pick it up? Why would you know does is it about the trash? Does it really make that much of a difference in your life? No. But the action of going against that bottomup influence of just ignoring the harder thing and going toward ease, more pleasure, less pain, even just avoiding subtle pain though there are two ways to build up these circuits. One is by forcing yourself to go like as we say with like writers always say like ass to chair like you know it's just you're just going to like sweat blood until you get those 800 words a day out. The there advantages to that or doing the hard workout that you do not want to do. There's also a building up of the same circuits those top down suppression of impulse through the little things all day long. You probably need to do both. But I think that many of us nowadays who are exercising and doing health protocols, we absorb a lot of energy in order to get ourselves to those. Some people more, some people less. And I've started doing these, you know, stump type uh smaller things throughout the day. He does the big things too obviously, but those little things, what you find, what I find is that they make it much easier to overcome the friction that comes from anything. And so there's a really just like getting the reps in like it doesn't what it proves is that it's the circuit. It's not what you're doing. You're getting the reps into the circuit. >> It's kind of like Pavlo Satsulin, the strength guy. It's like the grease the groove thing. Okay, you do two pull-ups every time you pass through through the door. >> And does that mean that you can do 200 pull-ups in a single set? No. But it actually turns out to be more effective than doing like three sets of 10 twice a week. >> Okay. Then people say, "Well, that's not true. if you add weight perhaps not but it's maybe it's just two different roads to the same place but the top down bottom up tension this dynamic tension between those two is so much about what being non-reactive is about. It's about what not procrastinating is about. It's what morality is about. It's about being calm under pressure. It's about um being making appropriate decisions in the face of stress because it's not all about not feeling stress. It's about making adaptive decisions. Is there anything else that you would advise people to do for training willpower? >> I mean, I think what Andy talks about in his book, and obviously he's not the first person to talk about this, but you know that that philosophy like how you do one thing is how you do anything. That's a little bit vague for me. I like the way he describes it, which is these little micro sucks all day long. Like like it happened to me the other day. >> Trust Andy to call it micro sucks. He's a man with a helicopter that's jumped out of a plane like 50,000. >> He holds two world records at wing suiting. >> Yeah. I think he flew 36,000 feet or something like that. I mean, >> yeah. And I mean, there are a lot of badasses in the world and in the tier one operator sphere and I know a number of those guys that there are a lot of badasses. Obviously, what's impressive to me is somebody who has the intelligence and the communication skills to be able to share the things that are relevant to everybody in a way that's relevant to everybody. Um, he's also from Santa Cruz, which is a cool town. It's right over the hill from where I grew up. And like the fact that somebody like that came from Santa Cruz is kind of a hometown joke, which is a pretty There's only two reasons to go to Santa Cruz. If you're a guy in your teens or 20s or 30s, you go to the go to the boardwalk to meet girls or you go to fight. People in Santa Cruz, it was like they you'd always see fights and so I always thought of Santa Cruz as people think as this hippie town. I always thought of it as kind of a kind of a there's a rougher side of Santa Cruz. And then I hear about you know Andy's from Santa Cruz. I'm like that makes no sense whatsoever. But you know, he took all of that kind of local environment. Sounds like he had a good upbringing. He talks fondly about his parents which is cool and put it to some really impressive feats and can communicate what what the exports from that those experiences are. So you know I mean how many of us in our daily life need to like shoot move and communicate you know like the the macronutrients of you know operators. I mean some people yes but most of us no. So to me that's one way. The other way is obviously to do your workouts and you know I I'm a big believer in asking yourself what am I genuinely curious about learning and where's the fear point for me? What is kind of why am I shying away from learning about something because for fear of like poor performance and then that's the thing you should lean into. You have to be curious about something unless you're in school where you have to learn a subject. So that's another way like pushing yourself to learn cognitively. And then to me, I think that a a big other part of this top- down training is just the way that we approach life. Like, you know, I think there are two reasons to do hard things. Um, Rogan and I were talking about this yesterday. One reason is because it makes you better at doing hard things. The other reason is it allows you to access more awareness of the beautiful things in life. I mean, there's so much dog [ __ ] floating around on the internet and anger and we you and I talked about this. There's so many barbedwire drama things. I mean, if I went around, you know, posting every opinion that I reflexively have about some of the like nonsense antics that I see online or the crazy documentaries that are coming out and like when and you know, you get to a certain point in life and you tend to be one to six degrees of separation from pretty much anything you see online. As much as you would like to not think you go, "Oh, I know someone who knows someone who knows that person. I met that person once in a party. Got a eerie feeling. I won't say who that's about, but that was a real experience." >> You know, you can go down that rabbit hole. So much of being effective is going nonsense, nonsense, nonsense. And I always just take myself back to high school. There are only really three or four reasons to actually be in high school. There's like to learn, right, from teachers and from your peers and in class. That's a legitimate reason to go to school. you know, there were social reasons. Um, there were all sorts of observations that I had like one that was still salient for me. I'll share in a moment. You can learn a lot about people in life, human behavior. >> I have a I have a a friend who's a professor at Stanford who says he he unfortunately he calls me Andy. It's really annoying. And he's >> You don't like Andy? >> No, no, no, no, no. >> I think this guy's just persistent. >> Yeah. I Well, so what happened was what happened. I lost a coin flip to another Andrew like in the third grade. He gets to be Andrew. >> He got to be Andrew. It still pisses me off, you know. So, um, anyway, I eventually took back Andrew. Um, and you know, and this the other reason is a lot there's certain observations that I had in high school that taught me a lot about human nature that are still true across men, women of all ages, all demographics is really, really helpful. Actually, I'll just share it right now. So, as some people may know, in round 14, I got really into the skateboarding thing. Prior to that, it was like school, swimming, soccer. Every kid in my town did those. Got really excited about skateboarding. Skateboarding was small then. Um, it wasn't this big thing. No X games, nothing. I wasn't very good skateboarder. I was decent enough to get picked up probably just out of sheer sympathy by one sponsor. Um, and people want to check me on this cuz people always trying to His name my team manager was Steve Rugie. I rode for Spitfire. It was out of sympathy. Steve, I love you. Thank you for putting me on. I appreciate you also telling me I'd never be one of the big guys. Boom. Done. Um, but I remember there was this phase of skateboarding in the early 90s and it wasn't a good phase, but where like the clothes got baggy, the shorts got baggy, there was some sag >> and at that time no one did that. No one. Not in hip-hop, nowhere. Now, it wasn't really like really extreme sag. It was just like the shorts went from like mid thigh to like right above the knee, maybe a little longer. All right, so that's what we did. We were skateboarders. We didn't care what anyone else did. came to school and just ridiculed. Ridiculed by the jocks, by the by everybody. Didn't matter the kids were like black, white, male or female, like Mexican, Vietn we were like teased relentlessly. >> Everyone knew that Andy was uncool. >> Teased relentlessly, but we knew we liked it. It was a little extreme like you know, we liked it. We The point back then was to be different, not the same. Okay. Summer happens. That summer something happened in the world of hiphop where somebody starts sagging their their pants. Next year everybody and I just realized in that moment I was like okay this I was like they actually don't know. They actually don't know what they like. They really don't. They're just following. It wasn't following a trend. They actually haven't formed taste. And I was like, what I love about skateboarding, what I loved about certain forms of music, what I love about certain podcasters, and what I love about certain scientists, I can name certain scientists who just have the best taste. >> The in particular, this guy Jonathan Horton, neuropthmologist, like his papers are beautiful. They're articulate. The images are beautiful, the discoveries are clear, and he's just a he's a phenom. And but for a lot of years, you know, his papers kind of existed in good journals, but didn't really pop to the biggest ones. Then they popped. And what I realized was like >> whether it's in high school or as adults, people actually most people don't develop a sense of taste. Correct. They confuse what they like and don't like with what feels socially acceptable and what feels so different that it's uncomfortable to them. Now, I don't believe in doing things just to be different. That's not taste. That's doing things just to be different. I started realizing I was like, there's certain people in life that have an exquisite sense of taste. Rick Rubin's one of them. My friend David Cho is one of them. I believe you have taste. You think about how you know the people don't let the velvet British accent fool you. Sometimes the British accent can confuse people into thinking especially Americans into thinking that somebody's smarter than they are. I'm not trying to What do the kids say? I'm not trying to like puff you up here. Whe they have all sorts of names for this now, but but really like not I'm not just trying to flatter you, but if it flatters you, fine. like you're my friend, but also you think right at the boundaries between conflicting opinions and then you form a third new opinion usually that highlights something both beneficial and deficient about both. That is a skill. It's a super skill that most people don't possess. Most academics don't possess it frankly because careers are sort of built on like planting your flag and protecting it until you absolutely get battered and then you have to like like relent you know and then pivot to something new. I have a beautiful story about that actually. the but I I realize that taste is something that many people never develop right >> and the worst thing is when people who have taste think that their taste isn't taste that it's a misdirection uh internally or something and they don't cultivate that and I think that you know so high school taught me a heck of a lot it's true the baggies got too baggy the sag went way too far and we just sort of laughed as it took off we were like this is hilarious actually but happened in skateboarding, too. There were years later where uh this kid that I grew up with, I'm friendly with now, but Danny Way who jumped the Great Wall of China. Amazing. Jumped out of a helicopter. He has all these world records, but he was an aggro kid. He built the first mega ramps. I mean, he's gnarly. He was always just like so aggressive skateboarder, incredible, incredible athlete. I remember, you know, years later when he broke his neck surfing at Newport, he started working out with Paul Trek. He started and he built like a strong physique and I remember skateboarders being like that's for jocks skateboarders working out. Now if you look not all of them but a lot of skateboarders are into like lifting weights taking care of their body. Chris Joselyn Trey flipped the you know El Toro stairs this year. This was like a heroic feat. It was like breaking the 4-minute mile more or less is uh for skateboarding. I mean that dude clearly works out. He takes care of himself. So the things within a subculturing community that make that such a special community, what eventually happens is the community defies its own principles. It that you know the punks turn against they go that's not punk. Well, you know they did that to people like Joe Stummer who brought hiphop acts as openers. They've done that to friends of mine who are in the uh like highle band punk rock. They go they sold out actually no actually they're doing great and you're caught up in the eighth grade is what happened. But it it's not regressive. It's that taste is the hardest thing for people to understand because it forces them to really put a mirror in front of themselves and go, "What do I actually like and dislike?" >> It's a counterveailing force against both what's popular and the fickless of blowing in the wind. Like people confuse something that's popular for something that's tasteful. And you can also confuse something which is uh very tasteful, not popular as something that's bad. Like you said before, the difference between liking something and not liking something. You can like something which is untasteful. And I think the difference between taste and popularity and liking is taste is the ability to discern between good and not good. Like is this thing good in and of itself? And this is one of the problems. If you run up because everyone's looking for performance. If you run enough split tests, you will end up with a porn website. That's what happens. You run >> it all regresses to Can you explain this cuz I you and I have talked about this. It all regresses to porn eventually. Is everything is like if you basically if you want to get the most eyes and clicks on something, You keep going more more extreme, more salacious. Correct. And you end up in the dumpster heap of online content. >> Correct. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Going back to the the brain, what's your best advice for improving memory and focus? People understand brain fog is a thing. I'm struggling with that. I have lols with energy throughout the day. >> And now you want me to actually answer the question? >> Yeah, that'd be great. [laughter] >> Whenever you want. >> So, okay. So, brain fog is not a specific thing. It's an inability to focus. Let's get a couple of um core principles down. People with severe clinical grade ADHD can focus if they're doing something they really like. >> Y >> tells you something. It means the dopamine, norepinephrine, epinephrine, we call these the catakolamine systems of the brain and body that are involved in many things but focus among them are there. They're functional but the threshold to access them is too high. Okay. What does that mean? What it means is that people can learn to focus and they can get assistance in doing that by pushing on one of two ends or both. One is to ramp up the level of those chemicals. That's what things like Aderal, Viveance, Rolin and so on do. A study this last year >> out of Washington University in St. Louis, sort of the Harvard of the Midwest, if you will, although I think that's unfair to the Midwest and maybe we call Harvard the the WashU of the East. um showed that when you compare the attention improving effects of rolin to a great night's sleep, they're they're effectively equal. Hm. Some of these stimulants we know blunt stunt growth, excuse me. They stunt growth. We we know this, okay? They limit they limit ultimate height. They reduce sleep. >> So, they're circumventing a problem. So there's a new idea which is that maybe lower dosages of these these medicines combined with better sleep would be as effective a treatment. A lot of parents are erring that way. A lot of adults are erring that way too. That said, some of these medications can be useful in in extreme cases. If somebody wants to learn, let's just say if you want to learn, you want to focus and get rid of brain fog, you want to learn, it's here are the key steps. And I review some more of this in the book, but I'm during today's conversation and always I'm going to try and reference the book only in if people want more information. I'm just going to try and give people the information. I if people want the book, they can they can get it, but I don't want to like cloak the information. >> Everyone needs to go and buy the book. >> Well, thanks. Thanks for your support of the book. I did. There is a lot of >> You learn a bled for this thing, dude. I watched you I watched you basically >> eight years. >> You glanced off the bottom of insanity in order to be able to put this. Then the original word count was 120,000 and then you were forced to chop it down. And >> it's basically seven short books with with a long intro which is some story and context. Um, and I promise you can just navigate to a particular point in the book and understand what's going on. Get the tool and go. You can learn the science or not. Get the science. You can take the story and read it or not read it. But I figure leave it all on the mat. Look, I'm 51 next this later this month. Like I don't know if I'll make it to 52. I feel great. My bio market say I'm great, but you know, I mean, who knows? So, I'm I'm not living this life to try and, you know, soft pedal anything. I'm just going all in. So, here are the steps to learning. You need to focus. Obviously, to learn to focus, you need to be alert. To get alert, there are many things you can do, and I talk about all of them in the book. There are foundational things like sleep. All right, that's going to help you get alert and focused. But there are also things like exercise. We all hear that exercise makes our brain better. It makes us better at learning. Exercise makes you better at learning for two reasons. One, it increases the catakolamines, dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine. So, in the four to six hours after exercise, you are more alert and you can focus better unless you exercise to exhaustion. If you have leg day for, you know, you 10 sets of 10 on the squats followed by a bunch of hamstring work and etc. Your brain's not going to be so good at focusing. But, you know, 45 to 75 minutes of hard training, not taken to extreme, a bit like what we did this morning, that was a little bit on the lighter side. Not just because we didn't have a whole lot of time, >> but you're going to come out of that more alert because you have more adrenaline in your body, more norepinephrine being released in your brain, and more dopamine being released in your brain. And dopamine is a critical component for learning. Okay. Focus then it becomes easier to access. And in your focus, what are you focusing on? You need to focus on making errors through genuine attempts to do something. Something physical, maybe a tennis serve or you're learning billiards, something cognitive, you're trying to learn a language. The error between what you currently do and what you're trying to do. The error is the signal that the neurons, the nerve cells need to change. It runs through a circuit involving the cerebellum and a bunch of other things. But that gap is what the brain tries to close. If you can do something, there's no reason for your brain to change. And the agitation you feel from those errors reflects elevated levels of epinephrine and norepinephrine in the body and brain respectively. And those tag literally chemically tag the synapses. I mean there's some additional steps but they tag those synapses so that then at night when you sleep the synapses rearrange and you close the gap between your current ability and the ability you're striving to achieve. That's how it works. So >> a a curiosity and willingness to learn gets you to the gate of learning. >> The making of errors through genuine attempts puts the key in and turns the key. The agitation is walking through that gate and then getting some sleep or maybe even uh you know a day or two later even if you don't sleep quite as well as you would like just some time for the synapses to rearrange. That's the last piece. There's an additional piece that can reinforce it all which is self- testing. If you want to get good at something and stay good at it and continue to get better at it, you need to self- test. Mental self- testing is the best way to consolidate learning and learn faster. What do I mean by that? I don't mean visualization. I mean asking yourself like for me if I want to make my memory better generally speaking I might think okay so that was uh September 11th 2001 where was I exactly? What were some of the details? Now that might be a something I might not want to think about. But if I were to say okay I'm going to go back to my um you know year one neuroscience graduate school training. Of course I know what a syninnapse is. I know what neurons are. I know what aster I know all this stuff. it's embedded so deeply in me I can almost do it in my sleep but then I think yeah that's right like what is the role of aststerytes and okay because that's stuff that's relevant to me when you hit the point where you can't remember something you go and look it up boom you've now closed that gap again and it reinforces those synapses that were weakening so if you're trying to learn something new or you want to get maintain information from way back when you need to retest this is why we used to make people retake their driver's tests where you know physic physicians need. >> Yeah. I mean, used to be you had to retake your driver's test. Not always behind the wheel. But used to you didn't used to just give people a license and turn them loose, >> right? Because they knew the ebbing house forgetting curve was going to come in and smash somebody in the face. >> That's right. The supplement industry is full of products making claims that they can't back. Which is why I'm such a massive fan of Momentus. Their co-founder Jeff Bayers played in the NFL and saw firsthand just how wildly the quality of supplements can vary. So, he built Momenus around a higher standard. Every product from Momentous uses evidencebacked ingredients, transparent doses, and independent third-party testing. Everything is NSF certified for sports. So, what's on the label is actually what's in the tub. It's why Momentus is trusted inside all 32 NFL locker rooms. It's why I've trusted them with my own supplements for years. Best of all, Momentus offers a 30-day money back guarantee. So, you can buy it and try it for 29 days. If you don't love it, they will give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you get up to 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemus.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's lie mus.com/modernwisdism and modern wisdom at checkout. I suppose one of the advantages at least with regards to driving practically is that people are re-triggering that on a multiple times per day basis. >> Yeah. or you get a ticket or you get into an accident. As my I feel like I'm quoting my dad a lot lately, you know. Um that's a good sign. Um my as my dad always says, you know, that the thing about speeding tickets is um they're expensive and money hurts. You know, speeding tickets were were $20. For most people, that's >> formative experience. >> It's not trivial, but it's not enough money to really like dent your uh your heavy heavy foot on the pedal. But if you give someone $300 ticket plus your insurance goes up, people speed less. you're going to remember that >> people speed less. I'm not saying it, you know, I mean, we could argue about about speeding laws, but money hurts, right? So, so that's how you learn. You have to bring yourself to those points of agitation. I wish id learned that in the third grade. I wish they had told me that. Now, many people find that they are very disciplined about certain things. They're getting their sets and reps and they're pushed past failure. They love their video games. They love perhaps mathematics but not literature. the things that we are not fascile in that don't come easy to us. There are two reasons to do some of that learning at at every stage of life. One is it enriches us. We often find that the things that are hardest to learn that we then learn are the most satisfying. This is the effort that precedes dopamine is far more reinforcing than when just dopamine comes in. You could say, well, you know, scrolling there's no um uh you know, there's no effort involved and that seems very reinforcing. That's more of a compulsive behavior after a certain point. Got kind of gets passed into reflex. But talk to anybody, anyone, and their life experience if they've had a life will say something like, "Oh yeah, everything was going great until this big thing. Then I overcame that big thing." And that was really the thing that taught me that I'm capable of even bigger things. Right? I mean, no, we don't really like success stories. We like um we like underdog often to success story pitfall come out of that. The hero's journey is something that we resonate with in part because it's so true but in part because for so many people it's not true. We know it's there but most most people don't embark on those things. And I think it's because we set too lofty an idea of what the hero's journey is. I mean for a lot of people it's about learning to do less. I know a lot of hard driving people it's about learning how to achieve more peace. It's about exploring ideas around spirituality or um fiction if they only read non-fiction. I mean, we all have to ask ourselves how much should we push ourselves to do things that are we're not just naturally inclined to do. I think a mixture of what we love to do and some of the things that we've just avoided because um they just seem too hard. I think there's real value in doing those things. And all the data on cognitive on maintaining cognitive abilities say will exercise make you smarter? No. It's necessary but not sufficient to make you smarter. You still have to go learn. And it without completely joking, I mean this is evidenced by many guys that spend hours upon hours in the gym and they're not brilliant people. They So they're exercising plenty. Their brain is clearly not getting bigger. They're not necessarily getting stupider, but they're not doing anything to make themselves smarter. You need to learn information. So there's that, but then there's also people say, "Is it cross word puzzles?" If you love doing crossword puzzles, guess what, my friend? you're they're not going to help keep your brain young. You got to do the the hard puzzles. You know, if if they're easy for you, then >> it's not going to help. You like chess, play go. You like checkers, learn chess. So, this is where I think people really lose out on the understanding that people who are striving maintain brain and bodily function for a long period of time. Their internal state is not necessarily one of like, oh yeah, I just love learning and so I just keep learning. I bet you Andy Stumpf, as calm and cool and collected as he is, even though so many of his tier one operator peers tell me it's really frustrating because Andy's really good at everything, >> I bet you if we looked at his internal state, his narrative is probably by now says, you know, you can do this, but is I doubt it's one of complete calm all the time. I'm sure there's he's just managing the external rep like he's not showing it. Yeah, talking about that, it seems like one of the things that gets in the way of a lot of people's lives is stress. >> What are your best protocols for managing stress? And I I realize some people may have heard this from me like 35,000 times. Morning sunlight. Yes. But that phys just do a long exhale when you're stressed. Do a long deliberate exhale. It slows your heart rate down through a phenomenon called respiratory sinus arrhythmia which sounds bad. People hear arrhythmia, it sounds bad, but we've all heard of the Vegas nerve. The vagus nerve collects sensory information from our visca, which is nerd speak for your internal organs. So your stomach, your spleen, your liver, sending that information up to your brain. Unconsciously, your brain is responding to that all the time. >> The vagus nerve also has a portion of it that goes from the brain to the heart and other organs. And there's one particular pathway that contacts and communicates with the sinoatrial node of your heart and it slows your heart rate down when you exhale. The reason is as you inhale and exhale the space available for your heart changes. So when you at some point your heart is a little bit smaller, right, during your breathing and the volume of blood that's in there moves more quickly. So your brain sends a signal through this vagus nerve pathway to slow your heart rate down. So when you exhale [sighs] deliberately, this is the key, deliberately, I don't think I've ever described it this way, you slow your heart rate down significantly. You offload carbon dioxide and your level of autonomic arousal, meaning sympathetic alert versus parasympathetic calm, balances, it tips more towards parasympathetic calm immediately. It's the fastest and most effective way to calm down fast. Better if you can do two big inhales first [snorts] [sighs and gasps] and then exhale all the way to lungs empty. That's the so-called physiological sigh discovered in the 1930s. Not by shamans, not by breath workers, but by physiologists. You have a dedicated set of neurons in the paraphial nucleus of your brain stem that capture the activity of this veagal pathway and slow your heart rate down. But the beauty of this mechanism is it also increases what's called HRV. The B most people know I want higher HRV. How do I do that? Well, I train V2 max. I do some high-intensity interval training. Great. I do some long-distance endurance training. Lower intensity. Great. You have higher V2 max. What is higher HRV? Heart rate variability reflects the number of times throughout the day and night that this pathway this pathway in the vagus signals your sinoatrial node to slow your heart rate down. In fact, you can increase your HRV pretty significantly if you just do 10 deliberate exhales throughout your day. And then at night, look at your HRV. It will be significantly elevated. >> This is why I spoke about this last time. This is why I need to get you one of those mhealth lamp things for resonance breathing. We talked about this previously. So you it's an algorithm. It's a stone on the top of this lamp. I think they're about to launch this month this M.alth. Um you stone on the top of the lamp. You It vibrates. You breathe in time with the stone. It's got a 100 hertz uh sensor in it. So it's detecting your HIV all the time. And as it vibrates up and down, you breathe in time with it. And it modulates to maximize that arrhythmia. And if you were to see it, you would be swinging from 61 to 72 >> to 62 to 70. So like 60 to And it is so [ __ ] cool. And the the sensation of doing that, if no one's ever done resonance breathing before, it is >> like after about 3 minutes, it almost feels like you've had a drink. It almost feels like you're a little bit drunk. It's very very when you get it. And the guy Jay Wilds, who's the main science dude behind it, he talks about precision with this because you can get uh a resonance breathing that's not doing BOF feedback. The problem with that is it everyone's resonance pattern is a little bit different. everyone's resonance pattern. You you might be 4.9 out, 4.9 in and like 8 out and I might be 4.1 in and seven out. And that difference to him, he says makes a big difference. One final thing on that. >> He said to go from state change to trait change with regards to resonance breathing, you need to do over 12 minutes. He says over 20, it doesn't start to uh >> a lot like meditation. Sounds like >> very similar. Very, very similar. And what's cool about this, what I love about this particular thing is you can grab it and you can hold it while watching a movie. So like if you're if you're just doing something else, it's silent. If you're even if you're with someone, um you've got the lamp next to the couch or you've got the lamp next to the bed, you can't sleep at night. You grab it, it vibrates. It's pretty much silent and you can just breathe in time. You can be doing watching something else. I haven't been able to read whilst doing it. That's a bit too cognitively demanding. But um you can breathe whilst watching the TV and that I've racked up hundreds of hours in the last year doing resonance breathing because I've grabbed that. All right, I'm going to go buy one of these. Don't give me one. Don't I don't I don't want And I don't want M to gift me one. I actually It's funny. I I love um still love finding new technologies, trying new things. >> New inventions are the best. They're just harder and harder to find new ones that people don't know about, which is why when I find one, I get I like chirp on about it for ages. Uh because I think I I think that it's cool. >> I do the same. I mean, I um it's funny throughout the book several times I mention because I talk about behavioral tools. I would say 80% of behavioral tools. And then there's a lot of discussion about pharmarmacology and supplements about the pros and cons of everything from nicotine to amphetamines and and on and on. But multiple times I mentioned some of the devices that Sauna Space, a company I'm not affiliated with at all. Sauna Space makes these uh indoor red light saunas that are incandescent. They heat up right away. >> But I also I travel with a with one of their red lights. It fills the whole room. I love those things. Raw optics has these incredible non-flicker shortwavelength uh eliminated. They well actually same bulbs go from daylight to you can get candle light at night with with no flicker and it's LED because incandescent aren't very energy efficient. And I have no relationship to raw optics or to sona space. Like I know the people there now because I've mentioned them enough times. They've reached out. But I just enjoy sharing things that I find useful physiological size or or you know these particular lights. Like I just like sharing what I think might be useful to people and some people have more disposable income than others. I think that you know that nowadays it seems like the are we overoptimizing becomes a big question like are we overoptimizing? >> I did a huge essay about it long ago. >> No, I listened and I think it's um it's an important question. I mean to me optimization is just taking the like what do you got today? What's on your plate today? And how do you feel best and do best in that context? And this brings me back to something that I failed to say earlier, which is that top down versus bottom up dynamic tension. Pretty much everything that's in the book, morning cortisol high, nighttime cortisol low, um physiological size, etc. They're all of those things put you in the best position, put these circuits in the best possible position for you to have a more adaptive, less reactive, it's not meant to rhyme, more adaptive, less reactive life, right? to be more aware of the goodness in life and less reactive to the BS that you have no control over. This kind of thing to be less prone to impulse and more prone to focusing on what really motivates you, the people that you love and doing the right things in accordance with that. You know, we all know that a bad night's sleep cripples this circuit such that the bottomup influences take over. We know this, right? People sleep less. They're more prone to they have less impulse control across the board and they become slightly psychotic also, especially if they don't sleep well for three or four nights in a row. But when you have these top down mechanisms really reinforced by high morning cortisol, low nighttime cortisol, great sleep, you're buffering stress well, you do a learning bout or two. And I do refer to them as bouts because it should feel like a bout. uh that's when your life is actually headed in the direction you want. Uh it doesn't matter where you're starting from. >> That's when your life starts really heading in the direction that you want consistently. And these things don't take a lot of time. In fact, they save time because they position you to be at your best. Show up as your best. That's not a marketing ploy. It's just true. And some people, now I'm skipping around a bit, but I want to make sure I close a few hatches. Some people might say, "How alert and focused do you need to be to learn?" We rarely talk about this. Like one thing I really emphasize in the book is like people talk about be present. I give a tool that explains exactly how to be present. Okay. >> Okay. So we'll talk about that. But how alert do you need to be in order to f focus and learn? What what's the state of mind? >> Alert and calm. What is that? Because that might mean something different to you than it means to me. How do you stay there? Okay. Have you ever played that game hot hands where you know I put my hands on top of yours? Wouldn't that be nice? I put my hands on top of yours. >> That's what we did all morning. That's literally that we didn't go to the gym. We just >> put my hands on top of yours and we play a game where you're going to flip your hands over and you try and smack my hands. Okay. And I'm going to try and pull them out of your way. And you're younger than I am, so you think you have faster reflexes, but you don't. No, I'm just kidding. You probably do. >> You're the person whose hands are on on top. So, let's say my hands are on top and you're ready to flip your hands over and tag me. You're the person with hands on top and you're in that ready anticipation of what's going to happen next. That's the state of mind for optimal learning. >> That's the state of mind you want to be in. So, when you sit down to read something and you're like, I read that whole page and I didn't learn anything. Of course, you didn't because your brain was you're running four or five different circuits at once. In order to really turn on focus, you need to turn off a bunch of other circuits that are or you need to lower the activity in those other circuits. You can't be thinking about at the same time, okay, what's the how do my feet feel? How's what's my heartbeat? What's going on online? What's my girlfriend thinking? What is she you? No, you need to be focused. What is focus? Focus is obviously in a tunnel, but then how much alertness? I don't think anyone's ever described it before, but when you look at levels of arousal in a game like Hotands, and believe it or not, there are some equivalent data on this or data on the equivalent sort of thing. When you're waiting for a time trial and you're waiting for something to happen, you have to react quickly. That's the state of mind you want to be in to learn something that's hard for you but beneficial for you. Period. End of story. So hopefully that'll help people kind of find that mental groove. And then as you learn, if you find you're getting too stressed, that doesn't that brings down reaction time. It actually you you start making false positives. You start moving your hands away before the person even does anything. Okay, >> so hopefully that will help people understand the level of attention and why it's so tiring after about 90 minutes >> and you're like, "Okay, I need to take a break." Somewhere along the way, low energy just gets accepted as a part of getting older. Turns out there's a reason for that. As we age, our mitochondria, the parts of our cells that power us, become weaker and make less energy, which is why I'm such a huge fan of Timeline. They've developed this that helps to clear out your damaged mitochondria so your cells can actually renew themselves. Timeline is backed by over a decade of research and has more than 50 patents and is the number one recommended mitochondrial supplement on the planet. This isn't just theory. In clinical trials, people saw mitochondrial renewal increased by more than 40% in just 16 weeks along with improvements in their overall energy. I've been using it for over two years since my doctor recommended it to me way before I partnered with Timeline. And eat your heart out Martin Schrelli cuz they've just dropped the price and it now starts at $99. Best of all, there is a 30-day money back guarantee plus free shipping in the US. Plus, they ship internationally. And right now, you can get that $99 price with an additional 20% off by going to the link in the description below. are heading to timeline.com/modernwisdisomdom using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's timeline.commodernwisdom and modernwm wisdom at checkout. What about presence? How can people be more present? >> Okay, so this one really surprised me. So the final chapter of the book is about personal development. Okay. Um I was going to do a chapter about relationships, but for various reasons I felt like that wasn't appropriate. Then I thought about relationship to self. I thought well that's kind of weird because what is relationship to self? it's too squishy uh a theme that like personal development step back and start asking questions about first acknowledge step back and acknowledge there's a lot out there about how to get through trauma but what are the unifying themes and can I put a structure on those themes that helps people navigate all of that what's the business of having a great life so we talk about that we hear be present there's this massive study out of Harvard a few years ago that a wandering ing mind is an unhappy mind. I'm sure you're familiar with the data. You ping people throughout the day. You ask them what they're doing and how present they are to it. Turns out happiness is really about being present, having your attention what's called present tethered awareness. You're focused on what's happening now, even if it's unpleasant. People report that as being much happier on average than if their mind is someplace else. Daydreaming has its place, but daydreaming is usually mind wandering to bad things, things of past, things of future. We're just not present. >> Distraction is literally unhappiness. >> Yes. Yes. And the converse is also true that focusing on what you're doing is a great way to build up your mental health. So then I started asking because I'm a biologist, not a psychologist, what the hell is presence? Does it mean um anchoring my visual attention? What how do I be present? Because otherwise it's just a bumper sticker and otherwise I look I love psychologists they have these beautiful studies that discover phenomena but then it's like if you're going to say like fall asleep what is falling asleep and we can talk about that. What is being present? Okay so be here now I think Ram DS said that great be here now how turns out that if we step back and we just say okay what does the brain do? Don't worry this won't turn into a whole lecture. What does the brain do? The brain takes physical phenomenon in our environment, photons of light, sound waves, mechanical pressure, chemicals through the nose and mouth, translates those from sensation to perception. Cool. Then we also can remember things, predict things. It's basically what the brain does and it can change itself. So that's neuroscience in a nutshell. How do we move our brain from thinking about the future and the past to what's happening now? Okay. So that means perceptions about what's only in our immediate physical environment. It means not thinking, not doing, not planning, but asking questions about the immediate physical environment. So we can do this just now. Right now, and you can do this anytime you want to be more present. And I want to just preface this by saying what I'm about to describe is not the end point. It's the way to get into the present. But what you do next is critically important, too. First, you ask trivial questions about your immediate environment that can only be answered accurately by focusing on the present. So, for instance, uh what does it smell like in here right now? Like like I'm not getting much for me, but okay. Um what is uh like how many cans are on this table? One, two, three. There's a couple other vessels. Four cans find it. Okay. All right. Answering two or three trivial questions, seemingly trivial questions about your present environment. How many people are in line in front of me? How loud are the kids screaming in the back seat? Is it louder or softer than last time? Things like that bring our mind toward obviously perception of the present. Duh. There's nothing, you know, profound about that. But it's what they take our mind away from that's critically important. The brain, there's a whole section on thinking. What is thinking? The brain works in what are called dynamic attractor states, which as nerds speak for, if I take a ball bearing and I put it on a on a plate, it essentially can move in any direction. There's some details related to the smoothness of the bearing and the plate, etc. But if I put a little groove on that plate and I tilt the plate slightly, it obviously will go toward the groove. It'll get into the groove. And then if I turn that groove into a I make it more concave and eventually a trench, the ball bearing stays there. That's how your brain works. The more that you see the thought, the more that you see the perception, the more that brain circuits are devoted to things related to that thought or perception. So when you want to be present, something that we know from excellent data, this large study at Harvard, but subsequent studies as well, is so critical for happiness. The way to practice that is to learn from taking your mind from thinking and doing and remembering about things of past and future to just anchoring your perception to the present. It doesn't require meditating. Meditation is one form of that. What what are we doing when we meditate? We close our eyes. We focus on our breathing that's here now and we focus on quote unquote third eye center or whatever. But that's actually interosception. And it's focusing on our internal bodily state, which is not that great, frankly, if you look at the data for being present in a happy way. Most people who are overly focused on their internal state in the present >> are like, "My heart rate is increasing, my heart rate's too low, I'm sweating, I'm uncomfortable." You start thinking about the fact that like your your you know, your boxers are like pulled up on one leg. You know, they that's not the way to get present and calm and aware. The way to get present, calm, and aware and be able to move forward from that in a in the best way is to ask questions about your immediate physical environment. Once you do that, remember that's just the first step. The second step is to use that heightened level of awareness to ask yourself, what do I want to what do I actually want to do next? What do I want to say next? What do I want to think about next? This is the way that you take control of your thoughts. And I won't go into all the detail now, but thoughts have this way they seed each other. So I think we've done this thing about the cat, right? I think we did that previously. We say like, you know, think of a cat. Um, okay, you know, tell me about it. People say, well, it has soft, it's this color, it's this that you're starting to recruit more and more neural machinery toward the thought about this trivial thing that we call a a seed idea, which is the cat. But if you just let your brain run like through the tributaries of its like own choices, you end up in a pretty unhappy place. >> So the key to being a high agency happy person, it turns out, is being able to control your thinking and bring it back to the present. But then you don't just stay there thinking about your breathing. That's like kind of sociopathic, right? It's weird. It's like it's just weird. You ask questions about your immediate environment and then you pivot into the person that you want to be in terms of action and thinking and speaking or maybe silence is called for >> and so none of this is psychology. This is all 100% neuroscience. I get into the underlying mechanisms and it fully supports everything I just described I should say is fully supported by the work that shows that people who have heightened levels of activity in the so-called default mode network. This is the network of activity that just takes place when you're doing essentially nothing are more depressed. >> Too much activity in the default mode network. Yes, some is associated with creativity, but usually elevated levels of activity in the default mode network are what you find in depressed people because their brain is just kind of all over the place and they feel discombobulated. >> Unless we're in sleep, we need to organize our internal landscape. The problem is most people hear you need to organize your internal landscape and they think oh you have to get up in the morning do 10 breaths of meditation get your and they think about it as rigidity. I'm talking about now and throughout the book it's all about the things that set you up to lean into life so that you're more reflexively more effective. You're reflexively happy. You're reflexively more adaptive. You're reflexively more present. And I think this is where the overoptimization conversation is relevant. None of these practices are an end in and of themselves, right? I mean, I think nowadays because people go to the gym and they get like the the aesthetic effect they want. They think like, "Oh, you go to the gym to do that." I go to the gym so that I can sprint for the plane, open the pickle jar, move all the boxes on moving day, up and down the stairs, and feel great, tired, but great at the end of the day. And I like being strong for life. I like having endurance so I can go hiking in Yeused. If we go, let's go tomorrow. We're going and carrying 80 lb packs. We do it tomorrow. And yeah, it hurts a little bit, but like in a good way. And you can sprint for the plane and not cough up a lung. You can, you know, there's a section on mobility, which is, you know, four trivial mobility exercises. You know, get your knee behind your glutes once a day, squat down, do bend and look up at the ceiling like to a right angle, be able to look up on both sides, identify any, you know, kind of mismatches on either side and work through those. That's so I can like lean down and grab things and move so I can reach and grab things. It's like you threw me the protein drink out there. I just for the record I caught it. >> You did catch it. >> I I'm not so proud of that. I'm just pissed at your camera guy. We'll probably wait until I drop it and then film that one. So for the They're running a diabolical scheme here at uh at Modern Wisdom where they wait for you to f up and then they film it. But when you get it right No, I'm just kidding. No one's capturing. I'm just kidding. Actually, I I don't care about I'm not obviously my hand eye coordination is not something I I'm like really concerned about, but um nor do I boast about. But the point being that it's all about being able to move through life with confidence and agency and and awareness and sensitivity to what you need to be sensitive to and being and saying to the things that you need to say to. That's a really good life. It's not about the tools. It's about what the tools open up for you. >> Yeah. I think a lot of people have an issue with the overoptimization thing because it feels like more homework. They're already overwhelmed. They're already working hard. The sort of people that read your book and listen to your podcast and are fans of modern wisdom, they're already contorting themselves into a pretzel trying to get more out of their day. They've already got standards that are so impossibly high that they can't meet them. And now when they sometimes hear people saying you need to do this and do this and do this and this, they feel like they're overwhelmed. And the difference being you can make yourself fragile if your entire performance and your whole life is predicated on this kind of rain dance ritual that you're only able to do the stuff if you have had this like weird two hours of foreplay beforehand. I understand why that's the case. >> Two hours of foreplay. Yeah, that's that's a lot. I knew that would be I mean what's that? >> So nothing people might argue it's not enough. >> Yeah, that's true. >> That is true. >> I guess it depends on how much time you got. >> That's true. You you could have a it could be a Sunday. But I think at least from my experience periodizing your life is one of the best ways to think about this. And a lot of people especially toward the end of their 20s especially a lot of guys go through this mano pause. They go through this period where they realize that all of the strategies, tools, habits, routines, modes of getting recognition and and and and you know success from the people around them, they've stopped working and they want to become something better. It's kind of like a second adolescence. It's actually a more important adolescence, I think, than the one from, you know, 13 to kind of like 17. And that, okay, what sort of person, what sort of man do I want to become in this world? I don't know, maybe women go through it, too, but but I I I know that I see it in a lot of guys, especially dudes that are a little bit more deep thinkers and maybe they played the game >> in their 20s. They were successful perhaps maybe at playing the game. >> Which game are you referring to? >> Like the social norms game. I'm going to like, you know, contort myself or like chameleon a little bit. I'm not going to bring up quite what I think or what I mean or my my >> Well, that can be adaptive, too. I mean, especially in the age of camera phones. I mean, when I grew up, you say something outrageous at a party, >> just like, you know, not offensive, but just outrageous. And it may land, it might not land, but you don't worry that it's going to land everywhere. >> Concretized on the internet for the rest of time. >> Yeah. I mean, I I And this is not just for public facing people. I mean, I feel like um you're probably a great dancer, but you know, I think like a lot of people are are not, right? a lot of men in particular are not um and >> you know you'd like to be able to like go to a wedding and dance and have fun and not think about how that's going to show up. >> Yeah. Is someone going to mock me for this video? So anyway, you guys get get to this period and they think what sort of a person am I going to be? And that to me and for me and for a lot of my friends as well, I needed to basically bundle together quite a lot of locking. I needed to lock the [ __ ] in. I needed to lock in for an extended period of time. And from the outside that might look like uh an overreiance on protocols and self-experimentation and optimizing and doing things like that. But what they don't see when they look at somebody that's going through that period is I was basically paying a debt that I had slowly accumulated over a decade and a half of running nightclubs. Like I will go toe-to-toe with pretty much anyone for degenerate behavior in my 20s, right? I ran more parties, did more of the things that you're not supposed to do in my 20s than almost anyone else. I met a million people on the front door of nightclubs. I attended a thousand parties. >> Thousand parties. That's how many we ran. We had a million were very different. >> We had a million we had a million million lifetime entries. Had a great time to venues. >> Um so I'm like I've served my time and then I needed to I wanted to become somebody that was a little bit more well-rounded that understood himself that had a great con all of those things. I was like okay. So, if you look at me from 28 to 32, 33 in isolation, it actually looks like probably quite a fragile um highly strong life where I've got this elaborate morning routine that's going on for a couple of hours and I'm like getting up and getting sunlight my eyes before it's cool and doing the lateral flow eye movement as you're ambulating through the thing. Like, do you putting salt Redmond salt in water that I had to import from America because I once read in some random blog post that it might work. like all of this [ __ ] before it was kind of popularized and then journaling and breath work and meditation and reading a book and doing space repetition with Anky flashcards and all of this [ __ ] Why? Well, because I wanted to like discover what worked for me and I wanted to like rip myself out of this hole that I dug myself into and my thing around the the optimization like guilt that a lot of people feel or fear that they have this kind of push back against the the fragility that definitely comes along with it. Like there is such a thing as like the fear of or the worry that you have of trying to be optimal killing you more quickly than your uh suboptimal behaviors. Like you're so stressed about this. But there is also a period I think that you can really use it to like get the momentum moving. Okay, I've got a training practice. I understand how to meditate. I've stopped going to bed late. I've started getting up on time. I've started, you know, those are things that then carry you forward. And you can either try and slowly ingrain them over a long period of time or you can navy seal hell week it and bundle it together. And that's what I did. I've learned from over a thousand podcast episodes, the easier that you make your health routine, the more consistent you'll be. It's like golf, right? You want to keep it simple and not mix a bunch of pills. You want the eye of the tiger, not the DUI of the tiger. That's why I'm such a huge fan of AG1. One scoop contains 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food sourcing ingredients in a single daily drink. And that's why been taking it every single morning for nearly 5 years now. And they've taken it a step further with AG1 NextGen backed by four clinical trials. Those trials that was shown to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels in just three months and increase healthy gut bacteria by 10 times even in people who already eat well. Plus, if you're still unsure, they've got a 90-day money back guarantee. So, you can buy it and try it every single day for 3 months. If you don't like it, they will give you all of your money back. Right now, you can get 20% off a welcome kit and that 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkaga.com/modernwisdom. That's drinkaggone.comwisdom. >> I came on this podcast because I was excited to talk to you and yes, I'm out on the book thing, but I like learning from you. So, can I just like take in what you said for a sec? Um >> cuz um happy to share what I know, but I want to I want to think about this because I always learn with you. So, one thing that you're so excellent at and that I'm trying to do more of by way of example from you is um you are very good at spotting um contradictions and as I said earlier trying to you know like clashes and contradictions and trying to export something of value like a new direction from that. So, you know, I will say and I I acknowledge you in the book for many reasons, by the way. Um, just, you know, we get these conflicting messages inside of any space. Okay? So, um, you have so much within you. If you do the right things, you can access these things. Okay? Um, if you do all these things, you're actually a weaker version of yourself because if you don't do those, not doing the hard thing now becomes the hard thing. Okay? I mean, hell week is a week for a reason. It's not hell year. Although, talking to people who are instructors and SEAL training and this kind I mean it it I do think they are um identifying people that are that have something different in them >> as opposed to building that up. I think they build it up in those people but I think it that filter is really unique. I think for the rest of us um you know I don't you'd probably make it through but for the rest of us um the the real question I think is how do we resolve all these tools and contradictions that are out there and put a structure on them. Forgive me for going slow here but for once I'm I'm speaking slow enough. Okay. So years ago when I was a graduate student uh a guy who is really a luminary in the field of neuroendocrinology said to me he said you know um it's rarely the people who make like the key discoveries that go on to be associated with um the great findings of a field. I go how can that possibly be? And he said it's almost always people that are in that field or educate themselves on that field that put a structure on it. And he said, 'Th this is why it's important to publish research papers, but also regularly publish reviews. And I always made it a point for about every three research papers I published to publish one high quality review, not some like, you know, like yellow ribbon journal, you know, um, review because you can publish a review anywhere, but like real compendiums of where the the knowledge is now. Like I took those very very seriously, like annual reviews and so forth very seriously. And why? because they help you organize your mind around what's happening and they help other people do that too because most people aren't going to take the time to do it in the health and optimization space. Now, there's so many tools, right? So, what we need and what I try and highlight in the book are principles. >> Yep. >> High morning cortisol means low nighttime cortisol means high nighttime melatonin means great sleep means better days and so on and so forth. You're you're essentially got the gears of the system linking together with that. Understand that. And then yes, it's true bright light is the best way to spo spike your morning cortisol, but exercise is pretty effective, too. Sometimes you don't have access to either. Sometimes you have access to both. Sometimes you're on a plane, you can't but you can start doing other things to nudge the system or keep the system online when you have 30 seconds. You also understand that if you miss a day or two, you're okay. Y because you set up the system through good behaviors going into it. You don't have to dissolve into a puddle of your own tears cuz you're on a plane and they don't have any caffeinated coffee and you can't do your air squats and like I mean come on, no one wants to be that. Exactly. So you're you once you understand a bit of the principles that organize the mechanisms, you're in a great position to be truly strong of mind and body because you can organize information. And the same thing is true like in chapter seven of the book on personal development. I took a step back and I said,"What are the unifying features of all the trauma therapies? What are the unifying features of how to have a great life?" Let's just start with how to have a great life. James Hollis came on my podcast. He's 84 years old. Surprised the [ __ ] out of me when he said, "Here's how you have a great life. It involves four things. The first three are shut up." That's the first one. I go, "Shut up." And he goes, "Yeah, someone's always got it worse than you. Nobody wants to hear you whine. Have gratitude for what you do have. If you're alive, you got something to be grateful for. >> Well, I didn't really expect that from him. You know, he's like this 85-year-old Yungian analyst. He talks about the unconscious mind. He goes, "Shut up. Your day should start with Huberman. Shut up. Whatever's got you bothered, shut up. You got it better than somebody." >> It's interesting. I wish someone had said that to you earlier, but that's okay. >> Thank you. Um, second, [laughter] >> you can keep this in >> next. Next, he said, "Chris Williamson, go [ __ ] yourself." >> Yeah, that's true. >> Science. [laughter] >> First is shut up. Second is suit up. What is suit up? Suit up is >> you have a role to fulfill each day for other people and for yourself and for the world. Suit up is get prepared. Shower, organize your room. We've heard this stuff from Jordan and from other people, but get your act together so that you can then do the third thing effectively, which is show up. Go find a role in life and fulfill it. Might not be the role you fulfill your entire life, but if it's a summer camp counselor, if it's a babysitter, if it's a a nanny, if it's a firefighter, if it's whatever you you are doing at some point in your life, you in order to have confidence and be a healthy, happy person, you need to fulfill roles for society, meaning for people in your life, not just for you. You have to be in service. Now, some people might think, well, I want to make as much money in the world as possible. That's not me, but a lot of people feel that way. Great. to do what? Go fulfill that role. So get dressed properly. Do those things. It sounds so basic, right? So shut up is about gratitude. Suit up is about prepare and practice. Don't show up, you know, don't for me, I delayed the publication of the book three times. Why? Because I want the book to be something I'm truly proud of and that people will feel that they were honored as smart people who deserve quality information. Period. End of story. And I was willing to tell the publisher and everyone else, look, I'm so so sorry, but I'm going back in again and again and again. Eat the shame. Because ultimately, I had a higher value, which was that the book be of good to extreme value to anyone that that that read it >> or even just looked at a chapter for instance. And then that last one of show up is actually go do the work. Like chop wood, carry water. Like no one gives a [ __ ] that you don't want to do it today. Just do it. Great confidence comes from those. But then he said the fourth thing the pitfall is that when we get too much into role playing these roles and doing these things we we don't often enough or see excuse me many people end up down a road that they don't really want to be on and everyone fears that. So he said the solution to this is very simple once a day go into your mind and get out of stimulus response. You either meditate or just breathe. You draw, you listen to music, you don't look at your phone, you don't think about your role in the world, and all you do is you try and listen to, and it sounds real squishy, but when it's next to shut up, suit up, show up, I feel comfortable saying it, which is you ask yourself like, what is my deeper wish, my heart's desire? What do I need to be focusing on now? Maybe I have enough career, enough money, enough uh whatever, you know, colleague respect, etc. Maybe now it's time to uh focus more on relationships. Maybe it's time to focus less on one's role as a mother or father, not completely, but focus more on an artistic creative side that if you don't satisfy, you're not going to feel like you had a good life. So personal development, if you look at those bins, it's not about shut up, suit up, show up, and do this internal practice of getting out of stimulus response. It's that's just one example. You look out across the landscape of personal development and almost everything slots into one or two, but usually just one of those entire books are about the first one or just the the last one or two of the two of the four. And I go, that's very satisfying to me because as my colleague said, putting a structure on things is is very helpful because it helps us navigate without feeling like there's all this information. Wait, I'm supposed to journal and I'm supposed to do therapy and maybe psychedelics, maybe not and I'm supposed to have social connection and and like pretty soon you're like when am I supposed to do the morning sunlight thing? It's a lot. So the idea is that you you understand the framework and then when it comes to the trauma piece for unlearning, right? Like there's a tremendous amount of information in the book on how to focus and learn better. But then also what about unlearning? >> All of getting over bad stuff is four steps. The process is four steps. The first thing you need to acknowledge the bad thing. You can't just deny it anymore. You can't suppress it. What are you suppressing? You need to acknowledge this happened. This sucks. Two, the second step is you need to feel the feelings completely. There is no working around this. their entire books and workshops written around breathing into, psychedelicing into, talking into, hugging into, shaking into feeling the full suck of the horrible thing that happened or things. But that's not where it stops. People often just end there. The next piece is feeling calmer even slightly and more peaceful around the accurate detailed memory of the thing. You're now uncoupling the emotion from the thing. You can't just live in the feel your feelings. We have an entire generation of people and collection of people online who are only there and they wonder why they're still there >> at the mercy of their feelings. >> They're at the mercy of their feelings, but also they're not effective in the world. They're not affecting change. They think they are, but they're not affecting change. This is actually why I think they hate one of the many reasons why successful people are often hated because they're moving along. They're like I feel like sometimes online I look and I'm like you remind me of those kids when I would go home cuz I left I went to college then came back and that scared the [ __ ] out of me cuz I was like oh my god >> you guys could write a textbook on how to become a like a world class loser >> and some of them weren't like drugging out or anything. I was just like, "You guys are still talking about stuff that well, today I talked about stuff that happened in high school that was helpful for me, but you guys are like stuck." It's like these people that hang out in the parking lot of bars for years and years talking about this thing. I mean, it's the saddest thing in the world. And men do it one way, women do it another way. It's this fixation on the things that happened that we feel wronged about, and we all have them, right? And granted, some people were genuinely wrong. That's not the point here. It's not whether they were wronged or not. It's that they're stuck there. And the third piece is about the uncoupling. And then the fourth piece is what we kind of think of as the magic of life where people take the hard thing and the experience and their journey of moving through it and they transmute it into something of beauty and goodness for the world. >> These are the people that go and talk at bereavement workshops. Talk to people who've lost a child. Talk to people um who have experienced horrible things. talk to maybe they even just plant a flower and put it in the window sill and every morning they appreciate not the pain they went through but the pain they went through that they no longer experience and the beauty that's there representing it a small detail right a small detail in their life they've transmuted the pain but you can't just go oh you know what you had this horrible thing happen you know plant a flower >> put it in the window sill and think about how beautiful it is you can't take somebody who's struggling in number one or two Yep >> or three and put them there. So for me, >> go back through those four for me. >> What's that? >> Go back through those four. >> Acknowledge the thing. >> Yep. >> Straight on exactly what happened or how many you know what is the thing that sucks that hurts so much. Two, you have to in a safe environment. This is why there's an interest in clinical trials on MDMA because it's this impathogen makes people feel, you know, love and safe. But you need that's not the only way. I mean there's therapy, there's journaling. I talk about this in talk about all the different approaches to each of these steps. That's the second step. You have to feel the feelings completely of the horrible thing that happened. The third thing is once you've done that enough, and we talk about what enough is, you need to be able to recall the details and specifics of the horrible thing that happened with less emotional load. The emotional load starts to peel back. And it's a hard step to get to, but once you get there, it's a process. It's not like you go in and you go, "Okay, today I'm going to remember everything, but it's not going to bother me at all." Little by little, you start to uncouple the >> It's like memory exposure therapy. >> Some people do EMDR. That's one way. Some people do hypnosis. Some people do talk therapy. Pennaker has people journal four times for 15 minutes each about the horrible thing that happened. This takes them through steps two and three. 15 minutes one day, 15 minutes the next day, 15 minutes the next day, 15 minutes the next day. No more, no less. And by the fourth day, tens of thousands of data points now, not just individuals, but many many papers, even if uh you know, manuscripts, scientific manuscripts, but even if you tear up the writing afterward, even if you delete the file, you find that people move through steps two and three to a significant degree. And then the fourth step is not just letting it hover there as this thing that you got through but finding some way or ways it can be many of transmuting that entire experience the thing that happened and the way you moved through it into some point of beauty or contribution to your own well-being and to others well-being. could be yeah a dog and the dog represents every bit of your ability to love unconditionally and their ability to love unconditionally that represents the unconditional love you didn't get. Maybe it's a someone who has suffered a horrible trauma is helping people who suffered similar traumas. Or maybe it's some just symbol, right? I mean, you know, in a very Yungian way, it can just be a symbol of like maybe you have this paper weight and that symbol is the the weight of your your certainty that you made it through and you just, you know, that the human mind can assign symbols to to experiences very easily, good or bad. So those are the four steps and for me in thinking about personal development it was like how do I look out on the entire landscape of all these books and all these podcasts and think and and science and think what's the best way to move through you acknowledge that process. Neuroplasticity is alert focus agitation through genuine errors to get things right. Reinforce through sleep and self- testing. Those are the steps. There's not a fifth step or a sixth step. There's not jump to step three and avoid steps one and two. So these days a lot of my role in in my public life is to educate about processes and when and this all comes from my training in neuroscience. You don't teach people neurons fire action potentials. That's the first thing you teach them. Then you tell them how that happens. And once they understand how that happens and you get the action potential, they have embedded in their mind an understanding of when a neuron fires, a neuron fires, they're not thinking about all the steps, but it's all there. That's what we call true understanding. You have a nuanced um multi-level understanding of something. And I think that all too often in the optimization space, we say, "Hey, this red light's going to give you better skin. It's going to improve your mitochondria." And people of course just want those effects. But if people are feeling overwhelmed, they should think, well, what's better, red light or GHK copper? I would say, well, what's the best source of of red light? It's the sun minus UV. When does that happen? When the sun is low in the sky, boom, you got the best red light therapy that you could ever get minus UV for zero cost. Congratulations. You want a red light, too? Cool. Be my guest. I own one. You might want one, too. But just we're talking about long wavelength light minus UV. End of story. So, it's not complicated. And I think the same is true in resistance training. Andy Galpin talks about this or exercise. They're only like five or six different adaptations. Better speed, better power, better, you know, I mean, you've added a seventh of like like, you know, forearms, but for the rest of us, there only six. And you can get that through CrossFit, you can get that through sets to failure. You can get more volume with near failure. Like once you understand something, you're in a position to make much better choices around it. And so my I'm actually wondering when to retire right now. I'm kind of thinking what's next and I have some ideas about where that's going. But I think we in 2026, right heading into 2027, I think we pretty well understand the principles of great mental health, physical health, and performance. There'll be more peptides. There'll be more devices. I think devices and pharmarmacology are really going to change the game. AI is going to change the game. But I think we're there. The fundamental the physics of the system. >> Pranayyama breathing or Wimhof breathing. H how do you [clears throat] want to feel more alert? Inhale emphasized breathing passive exhales. You want to feel calm. How should you do that? Exhale emphasized breathing. Passive inhales [gasps and sighs] longer exhale relative to inhale more calm. Why? We know all the mechanisms. So the naming this and this probably scares some of my you know health colleagues. Hopefully not because no longer can people name things after themselves or give something a name that cloaks what you're trying to achieve. The reason I went yoga nidra non-sleep deep rest >> and I I have great respect for the yoga culture that developed this thousands of years ago is non-sleep deep rest is the goal. What is involved? Exhale emphasize breathing to slow the heart rate down. Shifting the mind from thinking, doing and and planning to pure sensation. Great. How do you do that? present tethered awareness, long exhales, eyes closed. That gets you into a pseudo sleep that recovers some of your lost sleep, makes you better at sleeping at night, lowers cortisol, puts the brain into micro states of sleep, >> enhances learning. That's non-sleep deep rest in a nutshell. Now, why the book has to be so long given I can just kind of cut it down to a nutshell, that's a different story. But principles are what allow a field to say, you know what, we got it. >> Yep. Doesn't mean the stuff isn't important. Means we got it. We're moving on. We understand the action potential. We understand plasticity. We understand getting over trauma. The tools still need work, but we understand how to get to sleep. We understand how to be focused. We And so people, I think, I'm hoping will appreciate that we are here now. I didn't podcast and do all this for the last six, seven years so that I could be in the exact same place and regurgitate the same things. I'm like, here you go. This is my thesis. This is my thesis. This is my graduate thesis. My graduate thesis, like, you know, some people say there's a little bit of like pigeon chesting, but I didn't publish like two papers in some, you know, red red ribbon journal. We published close to eight first author papers in awesome journals, some in apex journals. I could have graduated way earlier. I did it because I wanted to close a story in a field. We didn't get everything, but I wanted to get to the point where that field didn't make sense to work on anymore. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> It was like, "We're done. We did it." Like, like, "What are we doing?" Like, "I don't want to stay in high school. I want to You graduate. So, it's now time. This is my thesis. I'm done. I think it's I believe it's of real value. I'm on to the next thing." And if people want to quibble about the details, I'm all ears. I'm happy to talk about it. Um, or even the big things, but it's not like I'm done. It's not important. It's like, "We got it. Let's move to the next level." And I want you to do this, too. I talked to Lex the other day on the phone. You know, everyone's like, "Where's Lex? Haven't heard." Lex is building up the next big move. I can't talk about it, but it's awesome. And I'm like, he's so brave. And I'm like, yes, you're always on the next thing, you know? Rick's always on the next thing, you know? And it's so cool. Like, it's like, we got to keep going. We can't stay back there. >> Mhm. >> Can't stay back there. That's what happened in the 1960s and 70s. People got went down the rabbit holes. They took too many psychedelics thinking psychedelics were the answer and a lot of them lost their minds or they did too much somatic therapy and they forgot that the mind that actually you don't store emotions in the body. I'm sorry folks, you store them in your brain and the body represents them. Turns out we've now moved on. Body and brain are important. So I think it's time we move to the next step. Tell me if this sounds familiar. You train regularly. You eat reasonably well. You feel fine, but you're just kind of going off vibes. Most people have absolutely no idea what's going on inside their body. And that is why I partnered with Function. Function gives you access to more than 160 advanced lab tests spanning hormones, heart health, kidney function, and even detects early signals linked to more than 50 types of cancer. To put that in perspective, your typical annual physical might test 20 markers. Function runs over 160. It's huge. Best of all, you test twice a year and everything lives inside of a simple dashboard. So, you track trends over time. make sure you're moving in the right direction. And this level of testing would usually cost thousands, but with function, it is $365 per year. Just $1 a day to actually know what's happening inside of your body. And right now, you can get $25 off, bringing it down to 340 bucks. Get the exact same blood panels that I use and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdism. That's functionalth.com/modernwisdism. Is there a good test for microplastics? And what is the best detox protocol that you're aware of at the moment for microplastics? >> Detox as opposed to limiting the ones coming in. Um cuz we know where they are, right? They're pretty much everywhere. Um uh [clears throat] but glass better than plastic and so on. Um >> the data on sweating are decent, right? They're not going to purge them completely, but they're but they're pretty decent. >> Um so sauna sauna living in Texas >> running outside. I mean, heat is heat, right? So, you know, I was kind of joking this morning on a press call. You know, if you're standing outside in Texas in the middle of the day, like you're getting some deliberate heat exposure or non-deliberate heat exposure. It's the same heat as heat. >> Um, >> so that definitely helps. You know, there's this idea that sulforophane, which is in cruciferous vegetables, might be able to bind some of it and you can purge some of it. >> That uh arterasol, is that what it's called? >> I think it's sulforophane. Um, you can take concentrated sulforophane. You know, Rhonda broccoli. Yeah, Rhonda's very bullish on this. I um I don't take sulforophane. Um I do try and sauna >> because it has other benefits a few times a week. Um and I just think more and more companies that can their beverages are going to start, you know, looking a lot of canned beverages do and a lot of canned beverages don't. >> Rhonda put me in touch with a company for Newtonic who uh have a different uh wrapper on the inside cuz all of these cans, it's not tin, it's a plastic liner. >> Yeah. But there's a a an organic biodegradable uh liner that you can get. So we're looking into that. It's going to take forever. >> Yeah. I mean, the stuff is everywhere. There's um the particulate from tires. There's the clothing thing in Europe. Actually, >> dryer, whether your dryer is venting inside, >> you can buy a better trap for some of the microfers. I'll be honest, I don't I don't do those things. Um I'm conscious of trying to not put heated food in plastic whenever I order. >> Well, this is limiting input though, right? Which >> that's limiting input to the extent that it's getting things out that we don't know. I mean, I think also like anything, some people are going to be more susceptible to this. I mean, if people are doing a bunch of other things to disrupt their endocrine environment, >> right? They're not sleeping well. They, you know, they're not doing all the right things. Um, or they're doing some things badly wrong, especially if you're getting a lot of environmental exposure to toxins because you, you know, a lot of people work jobs where they work with paints and solvents. You know, laboratories, it's kind of wild. You know, laboratories, you find all sorts of things that can what we call intercolate into DNA. That's how you you run gels and things of DNA. And I mean without getting into the details of looking at proteins and different types of blotss or RNA or DNA in order to break up proteins or break up DNA in order to, you know, basically run them out on these gels, >> you have to put chemicals in them that break the bonds, right? That's not good, right? You don't want that happening to you. It's good for the experiment. It's not good for >> people are dermally disrupting their own DNA. people who work in laboratories are exposed to, you know, paraphride constantly and um if you if you have a neuroscience lab that where you're perusing brains, you're fixing brains to cut them up. You're working with paraphraldahhide and other fixatives all the time. You're working with um things that are mutagens uh sometimes radioactivity. I mean viruses I mean my lab for years I mean I'm not running a lab anymore. last I think last paper came out in 2023 24 um now just teaching but the the the lab had adno viruses sinbis viruses modified rabies viruses I mean we some stuff you don't want >> we worked with we had yeah you we did we had sedatives that are you know federally controlled you had to keep them in a locker account for every microlerit I mean laboratories are full of dangerous things unless it's a computational laboratory in which case we call those carpet labs where they have carpet and computers >> when that's real science is just different science. >> When it comes to the microplastics thing, I learned some interesting insights around the fact that the u like micron size of microplastics and the size of your sweat glands can get some out but not all because microplastics range in size. This is a conversation that Ben Greenfield was bringing up. Another interesting one we're talking on 911. Um a friend told me a story about this particular firefighter who had gone into the towers and had been out of the towers and that was exposed to all of you know the most particulates probably in history apart from volcanic eruptions and um he'd developed like a parkinsonian tremor and he did nascin flush with charcoal uh and had a towel wrapped around him when you do that. So you get your heart rate up doing exercise, you get into the sauna, you take the nascin, then you take the charcoal, nascin to flush everything out, and then charcoal to bind it so it doesn't get reabsorbed again. And apparently the towel that this guy had wrapped around him was like verdigree. It was at all colors of blue and pink and green. >> Those firefighters, I mean, they absorbed so much mental [clears throat] and physical um damage in those days. I mean one thing we should say before I want to talk about 911 and that particular thing. Um I I do but before we do that I just want to mention one thing I think is important because the message got out based on one publication that we have a credit card's worth of plastic in us >> already been there. >> Okay. So turns out there was a second publication that went to the same data and basically found that the the tool they used in that first study to measure the number of particles was not a very good tool. Um, and it turns out we have far less than that in us. >> You saw this stuff about the gloves, right? >> Uh, not about the gloves, but that but but what's interesting about this study is I think that some people say you have a marbles sized uh amount of plastic in your brain at this moment. maybe distributed maybe but the I looked at both the the data analyzed two different ways in those papers and unfortunately the more um the more catchy thing you have a credit card and was worth of plastic in you or your brain that's you know it kind of did the telephone game of the internet >> the second paper didn't um didn't get as much air time >> yep >> and so >> the retraction versus the accusation >> right and it was a separate group it wasn't a total retraction but having spent a lot of years in my lab where you try and count cells and you're trying to decide on a computer screen what's a cell seems trivial to you mean that's a cell that's a cell sometimes it's very easy sometimes you see two clumps like this is that one cell or two cells so where you set your threshold for what you define as a cell is very important and in this study >> so this was sorry for interrupting >> no no no >> this was what I saw so u basically when people were using nitral and latex gloves to do the microplastic thing the way that nitrial gloves actually bend is because tiny fragments of plastic peel off basically. >> Well, this just came out this last year. >> People measuring microplastics wore gloves that got plastic on the plastic detector. >> That's what happened. So, this is like >> yeah, >> one of the biggest >> look I mean if you talk to >> there it is a wild microlastics goose chase based on the glove. Like >> so we might be overestimating the amount of these things which would be great. Let's you know if we to be more worried and actually be safer is better than to be less worried and actually in danger, right? Think about this though. If it's the case that microplastics are less prevalent by a factor of a lot, some of the studies I've seen around this, it's like uh 100 less 100 times less or maybe even a thousand times less than we've got. If that's the case, what that suggests is the X factor, which is disrupting endocrine, impacting testosterone, stuff like that, is even greater because people have been able to lay at the feet of microplastics. Like it's kind of the microplastics of the gaps of what's going on with endocrine, why is sperm count going down, etc., etc. If we say oh actually we've been overmeasuring that the X factor begins to need to fill more of the hole. >> Yeah we don't know how to match you know number of particles to biological relevance. I mean in a you know one parallel example would be for many years you know there were new antibodies coming on becoming available for the study of the brain and you could label up like where is the richest concentration of serotonergic neurons in the brain and a group identified this massive serotonin input to the brain circadian clock massive I mean it accounts for you know basically half of the input to the clock you know what happens if you disrupt that input to the clock nothing functionally it means nothing does that mean it's doing nothing. Excuse me. Functionally, it means far less than the anatomy would suggest. >> In the brain, big strong synapses mean a lot more than number of synapses. Number matters, but big and strong matters way more. And so, we don't really know how to correlate x number of particles with this much dysfunction. Also, >> this is not a study that I um think about very often, but my colleague Mike Eisenberg, who you've had on the podcast, right? Um I mean it does seem that sperm counts are going down generation to generation. Um but it see they have data that do you know about this that penis size is going up right and no no pun intended. Um but then you start asking you know how is this measured and it's self it's either self-report and then you get into these details that I really don't want to discuss. It's too early in the day. Um you know like are they measuring from like the top or the bottom? Like are they are they uh is it flaccid or is it erect? Like all these different things. And you'll talk to Mike and you'll say, you know, they try and standardize these studies, but it's one of these things where the headline is so catchy, >> right? One or the other headline. But then you get to, no pun intended, but then you get to you get to the the nuance of how these studies are done. And the answer almost always is, well, let's just stick to microplastics. We need more data. I think that the other >> we need more penises. [laughter] >> Um, some people in the on the planet would argue we need fewer. Um, but that's a different that's a different podcast. But um 9/11 um I'd been on the east coast. So I'm 51 years old. So um I remember this very clearly. I'd been on the east coast at a an amazing place on the north shore of Long Island called Cold Spring Harbor Laboratories. This is sort of summer camp for scientists where they go to learn molecular biology. You take courses and it actually operates all year long as one of the premier laboratories in the world. Are you telling me there's something on my face? >> No, no, no. I'm just I'm just grinning about this [ __ ] summer camp for the nerds. It's all right. >> Oh, it was a great time. I was a student in there at Cold Spring Harbor. I was a um a TA. I was a a educator and I was a course director for for many years. Um and then I passed the course off on to you know people who are better equipped to do that at that time. Um but we had gone to this course and then flown back right a number of us had flown back and some people were still in the process of going back. So I I remember that day very well. I also remember two years later because the course was every other year going back to this course on in Long Island and there's this day off where half of the students would just recover from their hangovers. There was a lot of drinking back then. Not so much of these courses anymore, but you and took the Long Island Railroad into the city and went to the 911 site. So it was a memorial/site because it was still they were still excavating the site. >> Was this? >> What day? >> Date. Oh, this would have been a summer of Okay, so two years after 911, so it' be 2003. >> And they still hadn't finished. >> Oh, no. No. I mean, this was a giant I mean, I think it's hard for people to conceive. Like, you see the towers in the photos and they're so huge, but the footprint of these towers was just enormous, you know, multiple city blocks long in it, you know, and there was just all there was was like a, you know, a wooden gate. You could walk around the site. There were pictures everywhere obviously and a lot of inscribings and some photos and things of that sort. And there were people working the site, you know, construction workers working. Many of them, no masks, you know, and then you got all these tourists, you know, we were essentially tourists. Um, >> reading the the stuff on the wall, walking around, no doubt, everyone was inhaling tons of whatever was in in their jet fuel, particulate, etc. But the people that got there first, I mean, I can't even imagine what the firefighters and others were exposed to. I did hear an interesting story that one of the companies that was housed in those buildings was led by somebody who had some former military training, do you know about this? who had been there for the first bomb bombing of the of the World Trade Center >> and had run drills for his entire company, insisted on drills going into it and all but I think 11 of the of the people in for that company got out. So they were they would run these drills about how to you know single or double file out out of the stairways. I don't know the partic the particulars of this. Um but it turns out there were people who were very concerned about this going in for a number of years. and that increased survival. Now you don't I don't know where they were, you know, which which level etc. But I mean that was a that was a huge game changer and yes there were videos online at that time um so different because there wasn't social media of people some places in the world you know quote unquote celebrating but I would say the vast majority of media that you saw the vast majority of what was online was just people either in shock or um in in anger and just and surprised a lot of people in the United States at that time didn't know where Afghanistan was. They didn't they didn't know what Afghanistan was. They didn't know where Pakistan was. They didn't understand that. I mean, they knew these places in the world exist. They probably heard the names before, but there wasn't a lot of awareness of that side of the world. It was like, oh yeah, like a bombing in Yemen. People would hear these things, >> but that was the that and the Challenger explosion were um in my lifetime were the two where you just went, oh [ __ ] like this this is a a line in the sand. like things are are very very different now. >> You mentioned nicotine earlier on. I'm seeing pouches everywhere. What's your opinion on nicotine and pouches? >> Same. Look, I consume caffeine every day. I love caffeine. Nicotine is sort of similar. Although caffeine is safer, obviously it can even improve health. Nicotine will definitely make you feel alert and calm unlike other stimulants which is a very unique state that's great for learning, right? Sets you up for learning. doesn't let you learn, but it so excuse me, it doesn't make you learn, but it lets you learn. Raises blood pressure. Highly addictive. And [clears throat] and here's the thing people don't realize. If you take 3 to six milligram pouches multiple times per day, it's not going to have a cognitive enhancing effect. It's just rescuing the deficit from nicotine withdrawal. >> Like, if you don't drink caffeine for two days, you're not going to feel good. You drink caffeine, you'll feel good. It's bringing you back to baseline. Okay. So, if you want nicotine to be a performance aid, you use it occasionally, meaning you know, 3 to six milligrams once or twice total, twice per week maximum. But how many people do you know that are >> not develop a dependency >> or just not do it very often and then it does something? I mean, this is how I feel about a lot of energy drinks. I love them, but I'll take them when I really want to dial in, really want to like I I slept last night, but not quite as much as I would have liked. time shifted and and so on. Um so this morning I drank one of yours and one of uh Derek's. Um that's a lot. >> The old twin turbo. Yeah. Very good. >> The twin turbo and and that's a lot but you know I thought we had a pretty good workout. >> Yeah. You performed well. Well the previous uh mode of delivery was smoking and then we moved on to vaping pretty quickly and vaping became massive. >> So talk about the history of this. Humans have found a way to get their nicotine. Smoking causes cancer. Okay. >> Not good. Dipping, snuffing, not good. Cancers. Okay. Oral nicotine. Oh, vaping. It turns out it's not good for us. Really not good. The chemicals associated with it probably a bit safer than smoking, but this is really wild. The behavioral data say because you can do it anywhere pretty much. People are doing far more of it. They're taking in far more nicotine and they're coming now having issues, lung issues and issues related to nicotine. smoking was less healthy and maybe more dangerous per puff, but because the number of puffs that you're consuming from vaping, because you can do it in more places and it's more tasty and there's less fatigue from it, means that maybe the healthier delivery mechanism of vaping versus smoking is more than offset to the point where it's more dangerous. >> Right. Wow. >> In the same way that, you know, cannabis you don't say is good or bad. Yes, it nukes REM sleep, but that's very, very bad. um it can cause psychosis and certain males have a predisposition to psychosis. But you'd say um smoking cannabis people are able to put themselves into a plane of high that is not freaking them out. They can take one to like bong you know when I was in college everyone just like did bong reps like you know and then but you knew if you could do half a one or one or you you wouldn't go like four and then wait and see what happens. Um, some people did that. That didn't work out so well. But with an edible, the problem is people can ingest, you know, 100 150 milligrams of THC like that and then they're freaking out. And some cases it can trigger a psychotic episode that lasts a long time or doesn't reverse. And so it's the ease of ingestion. So that's the vaping thing. The the oral nicotines, they're here to stay. Humans have since the discovery of nicotine have found a way to get their nicotine. Same with caffeine. They've just found a way to they're not going to quit. But a lot of young people using nicotine, they should just be aware of how addictive it is and the fact it raises blood pressure. >> And I think that, you know, usually you can scare guys out of it a little bit by just saying, "Oh, it's vasa constriction." And, you know, that can have some sexual side effects. But nowadays, people are using pharmarmacology to combat pharmarmacology, you know, and thanks to Mike Eisenberg and other people, you know, like I've said, you know, the the toad lowd doal for um for prostate health, but then people go, well, if you take a little bit more, then it then it's a, you know, it's like a sex drug and like that kind of thing. It's, you know, anyway that it was developed as a prostate drug, but it's a vasod diilator. Does it does that combat the vasoc constriction of nicotine? Yeah, in theory. Uh but you now you're you're doing like sort of a pushpull bad language. You're now doing a pushpull between you know one one set of effects and another set of effects. And you know I would say this is just by observation um you know people in their teens 20s 30s even early 40s you really want to get away with it using as little pharmarmacology as necessary. This is why for you know during my manopause monk mode era I did a thousand what manopause monk I went monk mode which is >> manopause. You're too young for manopause. >> Manop manopause is end of 20s. Listen uh I got I told >> you we got to return to that. Manopause is >> manop manopause. >> Your androgens dropped at the end of your 20s. >> It's a colloquial bro science term that I use to describe when guys stop behaving the way that they did in their adult infanties. so many thoughts about that hat and none of them good. Please take that off. >> Um, so, [laughter] uh, a lot of the time, like when I when I was doing my period of personal development, becoming a a proper human, I did 1,000 days without alcohol and 500 days without caffeine because I wanted to prove to myself I don't need to use any of these things. I don't need to buttress my life with this. I wanted to have that in the back of my mind that if there was ever a period because I I knew for the rest of my life that I was going to be like around parties, I was going to be around like caffeine. That's like my thing, right? And now I have a company that does it. Something that's kind of interesting. So, we've been doing these, which are these pouches. And those I think by the end of next year, we could do more volume in pouches, more revenue in pouches than in cans because of how many people want to dial back their nicotine. >> So many people feel like I'm not in control of my nicotine usage and the delivery mechanism has been locked in >> and and these are and it's easy to take and and we'll talk about the canister. By the way, if you write a 600page book, uh, what happens is you stare at things up close, your eyeball lengthens, and you become myopic near. >> You've worsened your eyesight because you wrote the book. You literally literally damaged your own. >> But at the end of this year, right after this book promotion tour is done, I'm going to spend a lot of time staring at horizons and hiking in the mountains and um and I might even go hunting this year. So yeah, that's why I'm wearing these. I mean, look at this. Is crazy. This prescription. >> You tried to You made me put them on. No, you're blind. They're like bottle glasses. >> Cool. Um, so yeah, when you stare at things too close, you become nearsighted. So, kids, adults, >> be careful. >> Get some long view vision each day. My vision at a distance is great, but up up close is lousy. So, the other thing about this that um and these canisters is it's interesting, you know, that um I'm not trying to diverge topics here, but you know, like we'll get to peptides, I'm sure, but you know, the pens that the GLPs use, the pen with needle, you know, has basically gotten people over their needle phobia. It turns out it was the plunger people were afraid of. I don't like needles. Do I have to inject myself? Turns out if you put the needle at the end of something, it looks like a pen. Everyone's pinning themselves. Men, women, people are just pinning themselves. Um, these canisters are interesting because they have like a tactile feel. It's a little bit like like chips at the casino. But when I was a kid, um, there was a a jerky. >> Do you remember this? There was a beef jerky that came in a canister that looked like tobacco. and kids. Oh, this stuff was was horrible. You would take a pinch of beef jerky and you'd put it in your lip. We were like 9 years old, 10 years old. And then you'd eat the beef jerky eventually. >> He was cosplaying as your dad >> kids. Uh my dad didn't chew. He did occasionally smoke a cigar pipe. My grandfather smoked a pipe. The people that did. >> Yeah. So it was like you would So we were like little kids. We were little kids walking around lipping beef jerk beef not licking lip beef jerky. And so and it was they clearly figured out that like candy cigarettes and you know and and so there is something about the p the candy. There it is. Jerky stuff. No. No. It's called jerky stuff. That looks so gross. Oh my god. >> It looks like uh the fluffer that you find in your pocket. >> It's called jerky stuff. Look at this. Ready? There you go. Jerky stuff. >> And you would you would stuff your cheek or you'd stuff your your lip. >> Wow. >> Yeah. This was a thing. Yeah. So it was >> it was kind of like jerky flavored sawdust. >> It was and also it had barely any it was probably like four grams of protein per >> in the entire >> and you would pay more for it and it was because it was you know a good way to take in something. So these canisters are also very reinforced. Yeah. It's really tactile. It's nice and also like you know it's your back pocket. Guys love carrying something in their back pocket. Nobody wants to carry the man purse >> you know. I might have brought like a small zip thing to the gym today. >> I did see that. I did see that. >> Yeah. You didn't ask what was in it, but I'm not going to tell you. >> What are the spiciest protocols that you weren't able to put in the book? What was the stuff that you wish that you could have got clearance on? >> Right. So, the book is everything I'm certain about that we understand the mechanisms for and that I know work. Not just because I experienced that, but because many many people have and we have great data to support it. Like everything's substantiated. There's only one protocol that's a little bit out there. And I said, "This is kind of out there. We have a little bit of data, not a not a ton, but here's here's why I'm including it, and I think you might want to try this because it can really help you fall asleep when you talk about this. Um, but we know why it ought to work. Um, I don't talk about psychedelics, although I do fit them into a framework along plasticity and learning and so they make sense of when they might might be the appropriate tool. I don't talk about hormone therapies and I don't talk about peptides >> in part because the data are still coming and also because there'll likely be a second book although you know if you write a book like this long with you know thousands of references and you know it can damage relationships in your life people have been super understanding this book basically acted as a filter in my in my own life for like who really loves me right so um but look it's big but it also operates as a doors stop >> a weapon Yeah, I was going to say >> if you're feeling not quite tall enough at the table, you can sit on it at Thanksgiving. And um and as I joke, if nothing else, it'll cure insomnia. >> Very nice. Okay. What are some protocols that you fully believe in, but you can't scientifically prove? >> Oo, that's really good. Um Okay. Yeah, let's just be blunt here. Um but these would be things that aren't in the in the book, right? Okay. because everything there is substantiated uh by mechanism and description. Um so I have had some wild experiences with a couple of peptides that most people some people have heard about. Um you know I don't have shoulder pain. I've never had shoulder pain but about 3 4 months ago I made the decision I was like you know I should start doing some heavy pressing again. I I [clears throat] do my dips. I do my overhead presses. So I just started doing some like I don't like flat benching so I did some low incline pressing and after about 3 months 2 3 months I started getting some shoulder pain so I started doing some external rotation work doing I'm like this thing isn't going away like what is this maybe I need to back off and it's like you know what like it's pretty bad I'm going to just put two injections of BPC in there. So, two injections of maybe 100 or 200 micrograms. Tiny amounts, right? Um, gone. History. Can't find the pain. It's gone. Now, is it placebo? I don't know. Maybe it is. I mean, I knew what I was injecting. A better experiment would have been somebody, you know, traded out uh saline and I go, "Oh, my, you know, that didn't happen." Um, that's pretty incredible. The animal data are really impressive. And I know a number of people with pets, dogs in particular, who've been injecting their animals with BPC because their dogs are getting older. I don't want to name names here because it's I haven't cleared it with them, but um >> they have dogs that either had spinal strokes or just aged and were limping and not doing well. And they asked, you know, does this stuff work in animals? I'm like, all the data are in [laughter] animals, you know. Um, so mouse and rat owners like your your mice and rats will visit >> if you rupture the exact because there a lot of data on that. Um, but I know a lot of people now um injecting their dogs, aged dogs, and saying, "Oh my goodness, this is crazy." Like they're more mobile, etc. And it's hard to give the placebo argument there. I mean, you could say that the owners are doing other things like they're also massaging more care. They didn't do the saline control, you know, but kind of hard to explain it away. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, >> the other one is pinealon. Um, pinealon is ironically is a peptide that doesn't come from the pineal, comes from brain tissue. Epiallen comes from the pineal. Who names this stuff? It's like it's insane. But um I've experimented with pinealon every third or fourth night taking about about a you know uh tenth of an IU. And um in those nights those nights I get anywhere from 2 and 1 half to 3 hours of REM sleep. That's a lot of REM sleep inside of 6 to 7 hours. inside of six hours, you're kind of cheating the system because like wow I like normally I'd have to get into my last third of sleep which for me is seven or eight hours in order to um total in order to get that REM enriched phase which always comes at the end of the night. But what's what's so wild is that on the subsequent nights I also experience this massive REM increase. >> So it's I've cut that back to doing it once a week or once every 10 days and still getting the same effect. The only downside for me is that the next day I can feel not foggy, but I feel like it's harder to become fully alert. >> I can still focus, but >> a little bit of sleep inertia maybe. >> And I know people who are taking it in the daytime because they like being in this kind of shallow plane of sleepwake for cognitive work. That's not me. But um you know there's talk about I don't you know well I mean rumors whatever there's talk about people at tech companies who are like oh yeah if you're going to do something for you know 12 hours that's like really laborious maybe this is good. I don't know. [clears throat] >> Um so that's been interesting. Um you know I think there's a lot of excitement nowadays about growth hormone secrets things like tessiml and upper morela and CJC. I'm not a fan. They've always nuked my REM sleep. They've always spiked my PSA. I I just for me they don't they don't tend to work. Um I am curious about but I I don't think I'm old enough yet to really embark on a um sematotrope growth hormone experiment but the clinical trial exploring lowd dose growth hormone for people >> that would be exogenous right >> that would be exogenous. Yeah. Um that's intriguing to me but there there are data right there are data but I feel like at 51 >> I'm like still in this place where I feel good. So, so there's no real science there. The other, sorry, aside from the growth hormone thing, the other stuff is there's animal data, not human data, but my experience has been pretty impressive. Now, of course, maybe I gave myself a tumor by injecting the BBC. I have to acknowledge that. Um, but a whole body MRI tells me no. So, you know, um, >> the things that, >> well, I've talked about this openly, um, so I I'm happy to talk about it. Um, you know, you'll find clinical trials on MDMA assisted psychotherapy for PTSD. You'll find clinical trial, beautiful clinical trial data in my opinion on psilocybin for depression and PTSD. Um, you won't find a lot of data combining them. Um, I've I've experimented in a clinical setting with combining them, right? This is done in a legal clinical setting. So you know that means therapy going in, therapy during, therapy coming out. You have to be very thoughtful about where you do this and who you do it with. They have to all the adequate supports have to be there. But uh for me that was incredible. I have to say that um psilocybin alone was helpful but didn't really feel like it resolved certain things for me. MDMA was helpful and being feeling feelings etc. But that first and that kind of first and second bin acknowledging the thing and really feeling the feelings bin. >> But the moving through part um was really for me was uncoupling the negative feelings from the from the negative thing but also replacing the negative feelings with positive feelings that really came about through that combination therapy and and you won't find a lot of data on that. I mean that it's unfortunately um the data on polyfarmarmacology of different psychedelics isn't there yet but then again the FDA approval for the first single treat you know single ingredient approaches aren't there yet and so that's why people have to go out of country to do this um >> or else it's illegal so I think that the you know the the data on ibain are really intriguing we've had conversations with people that are very open about the fact that They did it and it's helped them. I know a number of people are trying to get us to >> go down to Mexico and do are we going to go >> on a daily basis? I feel like I'm being peppered by somebody else to go, "Hey, man, just come down and turn your life upside down for a week in [ __ ] Mexico." I didn't know. >> I have a friend that's there right now. And um I'm told not to go. Honestly, I'm sorry, but I I just was like, you don't he doesn't have a substance abuse issue, so maybe he has PTSD, but I think there's this idea also with peptides that we can just uplevel ourselves. Like people say, should I use peptides? what what effect are you looking for? Better. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's sort of like uh you know, it's sort of like should I invest in blank? It's like, well, what effect are you looking for? And they're like more. They want more money. >> Um so it's it's understandable. People want to feel better. If like you feel seven out of 10, >> could you feel 10 out of 10? If you feel 10 out of 10, could you change what 10 means >> and be eight out of a new 10 that's way better than your current 10 out of 10? Like that's an intriguing idea, but I'm not so afraid of the ibane to be honest. Done in the proper clinic with heart rate monitoring. The thing I'm afraid of is the DMT. >> Yeah, because they have to hit you with that the day after and then pretty much straight after as well. >> I also know a number of people who have done DMT and they're I mean I know plenty that have done DMT and they're okay. I know a lot done DMT and they're genuinely weird now. Not all of them, but some of them are like legit weird. >> Yeah. >> And they were not that weird before. Some are perfectly fine. The other thing is a guy like DJ, he's talked about this, right? I love that podcast that you guys did, by the way. Like DJ is a solid mind, you know? So, >> well, also he's starting from a very low baseline. If you're sat watching the sunset with a gun in your mouth, like you're already like what what what's going to be worse, you know? Like you've already considered taking your own life. Okay, you go smoke the thing, take the drugs, see how you feel. >> Yeah. I mean, it seems to have really helped him and Marcus and some of these >> helped him enough that he's trying to be a like matraee for me and you, but a matraee that sits down at the table, eats along with what if we go to sleep one night, not near each other, of course. Um, and uh, >> although actually from where we live actually near each other. >> So I I I got a a place that turned out to be really close to Chris. >> It's going to be like the podcaster neighborhood if we're not careful. Um, it's cool, man. We ended up being neighbors. Good taste. Good taste in neighborhoods. Um, but what if uh you go to sleep in your house and I go to sleep in my house and then we we wake up in in Mexico in this clinic. I >> because DJ's done. >> Somebody did someone did a Maduro. >> I got [ __ ] Maduro Road by DJ Shipley. >> Exactly. Uh I've had similar things happen in totally different contexts years ago. Uh where I was supposed to get dropped off after working with this some friends. I have this awesome band. Um and they were supposed to drop me off uh back at my lab in my car. And I I woke up in Utah. They drove to Utah in the middle of the night. I woke up. I was like, "Where are we?" He's like, "Yuto?" I was like, "You're one of us now." [laughter] >> This is my good friend Elvis Cortez. He was actually the one that found me, Costello, and I love Elvis. He's great. But yeah, they uh technically they kidnapped me, but it was it was a lot of fun. That was that was many years ago. Um >> I don't know. We'll see. We'll we'll see. >> There are other things that that are uh perhaps a little less of the Mount Everest of of that stuff, but >> lower lower risk. >> But you seem to be in a really good place now. >> That's true. But still there's always the sort of ability to show up uh versus how much of the four steps have you done in terms of being able to get over >> sort of how do you respond when people say um they go oh my goodness like here you are looking for this next thing or the thing you can do and they and they just say Chris what you really need to do is just get married and have a couple kids and that will be the psychedelic experience. >> I I agree. I say yes plus plus two golden retrievers. I agree. And I say yes. They're not preaching to the choir. >> Two girls and retrievers. >> Golden retrievers. >> I mean I that's a Freudian slip from you. >> No, it's a from you. >> I said [ __ ] golden retreat. People can rewind the tape. Uh I I completely agree. I completely I completely agree on that. And um I I've said this before like I'm the most ardent guy without kids supporter and ambassador for guys just starting a [ __ ] family. And it's not for me to say, "Hey, I want you to stop your ambition." And the same for women too. like you stop your socioeconomic climb and doing all this stuff just like so many of the things that I see people doing, you know, young people and people that are getting into more middle age are like surrogate families. It's like the the business that you're building, the fervor with which you're going after this political party or this new sort of social campaign or this like obsessive hobby that you've got or, you know, trying [clears throat] to become wealthy or whatever. A lot of that to me looks and feels like this is the energy that you would be putting into a family especially the existential energy that you got. And I'm like um I I think a lot of your I don't really know what my purpose is. I don't feel like I'm contributing more largely to the world all of these questions that people have like why am I here? It's like well a lot of this I think has kind of been solved throughout time which is like you you do the golden retriever thing and the family thing like golden retrievers do come first. That is an important caveat for me. Interesting choice of breed. >> Uh, dude, I just want an animal that can't There is no danger of it competing with me cognitively. So, I want something that's both cuddly and stupid. Uh, so >> golden retrievers are not all stupid. >> I'm going to I'm going to try and find a breed of golden retriever which is particularly fluffy and stupid. >> Just find a dog with a really flat head in your house. >> Single digit IQ golden retriever. I mean, if you think about the mastiff breeds, they're all very sweet and they have flat heads and they look at you like, >> you know, so the the mastiffs, the bulldogs, the, you know, the boxers that they're smart about certain things, but they're kind of like dog with a flat head. >> Okay? >> You know, >> are you doing frenology for dogs? >> I mean, I I went to the >> This is [ __ ] phronology for dogs. >> I went to the meet the breeds in New York and met hundreds of breeds. Second time I've done this, right? And walked through and met all the different breeds. And I can tell you a couple things. First of all, people look like they're dogs. Okay, so the otter look a lot like Strummer. >> You know, the Thank [laughter] you. Uh the otter hounds, like these otter hounds, they're the owners look like otter hounds. It's crazy. The bulldogs are kind of goo like the the demeanor of the people and you just and it's wild. You have to go. It's so much fun. It's at the Javit Center each year. It's awesome. You meet all the breeds. >> I walked out of there. I was like, you know, I I turned to my girlfriend. I go, getting a bulldog breed. I'm going to mut because I've I've been around enough dogs. I've I've experienced them all. And the the mudded bullies, not the pure bullies, but the mudded bullies, they're they're kind. They're vigorous. They're got a little bit of goofiness. >> They're very emotional in a good way, but then they also like get over their just like a little hedonist sometimes and >> and they'll back you like they will they will fight to the death for you, but if your life's not on the line, like they're not doing [ __ ] at all. They're not reactive. Not reactive. I mean, are you kidding me? Um, so yeah. Well, listen, I hope you get a dog. Then the dogs can hang out in the neighborhood. Um, and I do think that No, I mean, family is awesome. I mean, family is amazing. Uh, so what so what's the what's the delay? You're >> Well, it's very difficult to try. Yeah. First off, I need to get the dog thing. I always felt guilty cuz my mom and dad have been so good with dogs. Like they would they walked them all the time. They gave them a great life. And I would feel I I've seen what a good life for a dog looks like. And I would feel incredibly guilty not being able to and I can pay someone, I'm sure, or somebody I can bring bring them to the office, bring them on the trip or whatever. I'm like, I I want I don't want to have a dog that's flying once a week or you know that I'm having >> Do you travel that much? >> Uh I did what like 100,000 miles and maybe 80 flights last year. I've done like 80,000 miles this year. I I don't want to do that. >> Also for kids, you want to be present for your kids. >> Of course. And that but that is another thing that I think is it's kind of beautiful if you frame it this way and at least maybe this is just cope from me uh that if you take the oh my god maybe I have just been surrogate family building with this business or with this hobby or with this body or with whatever this finance this investing whatever it is that you've been doing with your time skill building. But on the flip side of that, I think if you've really closed a lot of the different loops of like I really feel like I like put it all out there on the table, I do get the sense that there is an additional level of presence that's afforded to you because materially hopefully you're you're you're pretty well set. >> I can tell you I mean I don't want to get into details of my personal life but 100%. I'll also tell you as a hard driving like in pursuit of knowledge, skills and resources person which you are which I am and which our teams are also I mean very very few things feel as good as being able to resource the people around you that you love. Of course, >> like that there's like yes, your presence obviously it's not just about earning money and giving them things, but being able to relieve suffering, however minor or major, being able to uh resource people to be in their full expression of what they want to do. Like I I I think very few things will feel as satisfying as as that. Especially if you and I say that based on knowing you, but also your prior statement. The fact that you don't want a dog yet >> because you want the dog to be >> thoroughly resourced by your by the the love that you're going to, you know, provide >> tells you everything you need to know. >> David Pell, who does uh how I write and write a passage, it was when I first moved to Austin, and he's about similar age to me, and he said, we're having coffee. He turned to me one day and he said, "Uh, you know what, man? I realized that most of my 20s and 30s were just spent becoming the dad that I want my future kids to have. And I wasn't even bothered about having kids. And all of the accumulation of skills, of habits, of you know, closing the loops of desires that he wanted to pursuits and adventure and all of this stuff, he got rid of that and he said, "I now I sort of I feel like I'm here is a way that you could say it. It's like I actually feel like I'm [ __ ] here." And I think a lot of guys and you see this with a lot of dads and moms too like I've got these unrequited dreams and children sort of imposed on them and there's this you know low-key perhaps resentment of oh you know I'm doing this thing but you don't know what I sacrificed for you and then there's this shame around oh my god what sort of a monster am I to blame my kids that I chose to have because I didn't fulfill my dreams beforehand. >> Yeah really messy. Yeah, I mean I I want to be thoughtful with my words here because again I I do like to maintain some sense of privacy in my life, but I will say that um it does check off a sort of a a deep um must what must be a primitive circuit of like of of satisfaction like having kids is a really good feeling like it just feels like like you fulfilled something of duty, you know? um that feels really really good and at the same time it comes with all sorts of challenges and complications you know um but yeah I think that um you know it's become this uh kind of ongoing debate you know between me and Lex or like you know you know like a like you know but I think that look it sounds like there are going to be a lot of kids to wrestle and play >> I can't wait it is a competition between me you and him for who will have kids last but we'll we'll we'll see who's who's the holder >> I think I'm well I'm going to out. Um I'm going to keep my mouth shut. Um but in um because we all never mind. Um >> yeah, take this back. Take this back. >> Okay. It's turning you crazy. >> So um I've been asking you questions. This feels good. I didn't tell you that the last page of the book is where I do therapy on you. No, I'm just kidding. Uh no, but can I can I read my acknowledgement to you? >> Absolutely. >> I didn't even I didn't even get to that bit. >> Oh, wherever the [ __ ] is I'm going to do this. I I acknowledge you. Uh here um here we go. So it's brief because the acknowledgements are five pages long. I think there's eight pages long. But I figure if you're going to do something, you just do it. So I just put a bunch of names. Um, I put you uh Chris Williamson for your friendship and for breathing so much life into the podcast and what I refer to as the everyone's sphere because I don't think you're about the manosphere. I think you're about the human sphere, but human sphere sounded weird. So, I said everyone's sphere. So, I I I mean it. You breathe so much life into this thing. Like I remember first seeing you online and then you on Rogan and I, you know, and I not a skeptic. I always want the best. So, I thought, well, who is this guy with this British accent? And like, so, you know, and why are the women in my life asking me if he's single? Um, and um, and I go, well, this guy is really smart. He's really nuanced and he seems like a really cool guy. And you totally exceeded expectations on all those things. And it's awesome to just see what you're doing. And also, day or night, you're available for an emergency or or an adventure call. You'll get to the gym early on jet lag. feel. Um, and you've been super honest and vulnerable in your online and in our in that career and relationship with your audience, but also just one-on-one. I you know, there um for anyone that wonders, Chris is who he appears to be on the internet, which is really >> for better or for worse. Yeah. >> No, for better, man. For better. For better. Like, it's a it's an honor to have you as a friend. You're a great great friend, and I I feel very blessed. >> It it is it is really cool. You know, I I think one of the almost inarguable great parts of life is becoming respected and admired by people that you respect and admire. Like it's one of the coolest things that you can do. My back is also hurting so I'm trying to self massage at the same time. We did neck training as well. >> We did a few face pulls. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's true. >> Yeah. This is sounding terrible. We Jeff Cavalier has an exercise called face >> face. We did some neck training because uh as we both know having a the wrong head placed like a if a neck is too narrow with wide shoulders it looks what do you call the coat hanger. >> Yeah. You look like a coat hanger. Yeah. Terrifying. >> But um >> you don't look like a coat hanger. >> Thank you. Uh >> yeah, becoming admired and respected by people that you admire and respect is just one of the [ __ ] coolest things. It really is. Like I like that person. I think they've got good taste. I think they're noble. I don't think that they're spiritually chinless and they >> spiritually chinless. If >> ever there was a Chris Williamson ism spiritually chinless. >> Spiritually chinless. >> I'm going to borrow that [clears throat] but I'll give you attributes. >> It's Adam Mastriani originally. Originally originally. So um looking around. >> Wait, you didn't make that up? >> No. Spiritually chinless is from Adam Mastriani. >> Oh >> well. You know that song breaking rocks in the hot sun. I fought the law in the cover of a cover of a cover. >> Okay. But everyone assumes the Clash did it. >> It's fine. You're at the end of the human centipede of spiritually chinless. Now you're the guy at the very very end. >> I'm going to just give it to you. You gave that song to to to the class. >> I'll take it. Spiritually journalist. So um you know, you see these people and you go, "Wow, they're they're they're cool. I respect them in a way that I think is really really sort of noble and aligned." And then if you manage to do something in that industry or a different industry and they turn to you and they say, "Hey, like I like what you do." Think, "Holy [ __ ] like that's really cool." And can people take it to an extreme? Yeah, of course. You can basically construct your entire life trying to reverse engineer being liked by people that you like. And that's the like charlatan social climber that doesn't have anything below them. But assuming that people that you respect are discerning and one of the reasons that you respect them is that they are discerning, you shouldn't be able to finesse or fugazi them, famoose them into believing something they don't believe or you being a person that you aren't. So yeah, man. Like I I really hope that everybody that's listening to this gets to experience what it's like to sit opposite someone that they were a fan of and then became a friend of. Like it's the [ __ ] coolest thing in the world. It's really really cool. >> Well, that statement includes my experience of you, you know, fan of and then became friends of. I you've got an awesome life energy. I we don't want to spiral into a whole other conversation, but maybe for a future time, but I think a lot about energy these days, not just mitochondria, but like some people genuinely have I'm going to offend some people with this. Some people just have more life energy in them. And I think I like to think that if you're thoughtful, which you are, and I tried to be, that you one allocates their life energy toward career and pursuits and health and resolve and the and then pivots that energy, but doesn't decide, you know, I'm going to shift all my chips to this and then all my chips to that. You have a lot of energy to go around. You know, Rob on my team, my producer of the podcast is such an engine of productivity and running and he's got a family now and it's like you always hear these things like people have kids and then they like slow like he's picked up speed. We're just like whoa. And >> you know I I think some people just have that extra gear. Some people don't and they need to take their whatever they've been allocated and do maximize with that. And some people just have a tremendous amount of life energy. And I think the goal is to not die at 27 if you have a lot of that energy, right? You think about the 27 club, it's almost like took all the energy of a life and crammed it into this early existence. Usually it's drugs and alcohol. Y >> you know, so but you also don't want a a like a low slow arc in life that you never figure out what your peaks are. >> Put your [ __ ] foot on the gas. >> Yeah, man. I'm in the third quarter now, so I figure I'm you know. So, speaking of engine, I texted you about this last week. What is happening with the V2 max versus zone 2 debate? Because when I was thinking more deeply about like I'm getting a little bit older, I should pay pay attention to my cardio respiratory fitness and stuff like that. Low and slow was like everything. >> Send me that Jeffrey Dalmer video. >> It wasn't a [ __ ] Jeffrey D. >> He sent me a video of a guy talking about this. It was a very good video and my first thought was the guy looks like Jeffrey Dalmer which is making it a little hard to listen to watch. So I just >> could have just listened and said that would have been good. What's happening with V2 max versus zone 2 debate at the moment in your opinion? Cuz for a long time it was focus exclusively on low and slow. Now it seems like the V2 more highintensity Norwegian 4x4 is increasingly important. >> I think the word to delete there is exclusively. I think my read of the data is you need some volume of cardio training uh to get that quote unquote aerobic base that can be very beneficial. I mean the the sorts of adaptations that come from doing 45 to 60 minutes of of long and slow we're not talking walking but zone 2 threeish. I don't ever think it was about zone 2. who I think about upper zone 2, zone three around there where you just barely can continue without you know you could try if you tried to speak you would you would have to pause a few times as opposed to just super easy I mean you are getting build up of more capillary networks um you know which has a lot of positive downstream consequences you're getting all sorts of enrichment of the mitochondrial system and the and genuine enrichment of the cardiovascular system but I think doing that once a week. So, I make it a point to do a long slow jog. So, 45 to 60 minutes or so once a week or a ruck for usually if I hike I'm going for longer than an hour. Um with some weight or something like that. It's often social with somebody. Um and then once a week I'll do the I feel like I'm going to die hit workout, which for me is the aine bike. 20 on, 10 off, eight rounds. And by the seventh round, you're just like cursing everybody and yourself. And you get off that thing, you feel so good. You probably cough a few times because you're just like breathing that hard. And I actually just I do the crude measurement of heart rate like 220 minus my age and then figure out like what my heart rate is a percentage of that max heart rate, right? So we get max. So I'll hit like 85 90% of >> Are you wearing a chest strap for something? >> I don't. So I talk about this. >> You're not [ __ ] fingering your heart rate, are you? >> Your choice of language, man. Um, you with your your your >> British. >> Look, I get it. You want two wives and a golden retriever. You said that. And you're fingering your heart rate. I just put my fingers on my neck and record my pulse. Or I just And I'm looking at a stopwatch. >> So absurdly low. >> And I do that for 30 seconds and then I double it and I'm probably off by, you know, plus or or minus, you know, five beats. But I'm, you know, in the ballpark. And you're like [ __ ] Schroinger's podcaster. You're someone who is both very forward thinking, like technologically prepared, excited about AI, and also using like a [ __ ] sun dial in your fingers to work out what >> so funny. I I my girlfriend had a birthday recently and she we we I got her this like compass sun dial, which is so cool. I love primitive and very advanced tools. >> And I look at you, I do think primitive primitive and Thank you. I bookend. Thank you. And not a lot in the middle. >> You're the barbell. You are the barbell of a human. Yeah. >> Thank you. Actually, I I'll take that. Uh there's a a a great song called Streetwise Professor that I love. Um it was referring to somebody else. Um but uh um yeah, sort of like a barbarian um intellectual elevated. Yeah, something like that. Um so >> the once a week get your heart rate up near maximum >> for six to 10 minutes. Maybe do a mild mild trial. you know, for most people that'll be somewhere between six and 10, unless you're really really fast, in which case it'll be less or slow, in which case it'll be longer. Um, so jog two laps. I talk about this in the book. And then do a mile time once every two or three week uh two or three months. Um, you do Norwegian 4x4, you do the air, the nice thing about the aerodyine bike, like 20 on, 10 off, you >> can stop immediately. >> It's like Yeah. And after six to eight rounds of that, you're smoked. You hop in the shower and you go, but you t it takes so little time. >> It takes so little time. >> But you're also using the reason the Aine is so great or an assault bike, you know, echo bike, pick your like handles and handles and feet bike of choice. The reason that that for me is a superior form for what we're trying to do, which is get heart rate as high as possible, is that you're getting to use your arms as well. If you try and do that on a bike, which is a [ __ ] awesome piece of equipment. If you could give me any piece of cardio equipment, I'd choose a bike. It's super comfy. You can speed up the >> Your calves won't fit in the room. >> That's true. >> Your calves, >> but not mine. >> You're only using your legs, which means that your your legs are going to be burning like hell. Okay, if I can get a little bit more I mean, if I was a better rower or a ski urgger, I imagine you can probably get to a even higher higher heart rate. >> Yes and no. I mean, the rower I mean, it's not a super skill. It's not brain surgery, but getting the row formed proper is not >> as easy. the aerodyine you as long as you set the seat height right you you you can't really screw it up. So go as hard as you can to get your heart rate elevated for six to eight rounds but do it in a way that you're not going to hurt yourself like the skier thing like you know it's not you're going to hurt yourself but like you said it's hard to get the heart rate way way up. So that once a week the longer thing once a week and then in the middle of the week >> I just do a a 30 minute run that's somewhere in between or a 30 minute swim that's somewhere in between. So 5 minutes of warm-up perhaps, you know, just like jogging and then you do a 25 to 30 minute run where you're in your zone four, right? You're you're breathing hard and you know you could go faster, >> but you don't. >> Yeah. >> Because then you got that HIT workout later and you know, two days later or a day later and I talk and then I'm just interpersing three days of working out with weights and one day legs somewhere in the week, one day torso. Oh, today we did a push. So, it's chest, shoulders, um, neck. Um, and then another day of the week you're doing, you know, biceps, triceps, calves, maybe neck again. Definitely. I I'm big on abdominal work these days, core work, not just abdominals. >> What are your favorite exercises as well? >> Pikes. >> What the [ __ ] is that? >> You hang from a bar. >> So, you're working your grip strength, too. You do knee ups to 90° slow without swinging back and forth. You do five of those. Drop down. Then you see if you can do knee up, legs out. So ls-sit. Can you go back? Do five of those. If you can do five of and you just build this up. If you can't do the lsit, you just do what I'll do. Five sets of five of the of the knee ups. Next time I come back and try and do at least one or two lsits. So then you're doing if you can do five lsits. So you're just bring your knees up, then straighten straightening your legs. You're still holding, right? You're also getting the grip strength work. Then you lower slowly. If you can do five of those, then you start. You could do them one knee at a time. Kick out. Kick out. Kick out. Drop one. Bring down one leg at a time. And then over time, what you're trying to do is bring your your feet up to your hands on the bar without just swinging back and forth using your lower abs. Five sets of five or even three sets of five on the pikes. And especially if you're hanging from a thick bar, so you're really working your grip. >> That's a great ab work. And I do back hyperextensions and so keeps your core really really strong. >> Why are you bothered about torso work so much? >> You you want strong abs. You want strong midsection and you want strong lower back muscles. I mean, I I notice that basically all injuries for me, little nagging injuries completely disappear. Um, even if I'm sitting a lot, I don't have any pain. Um, if I'm doing I make sure I get a 100 reps of hyperextensions per week. >> Just so I don't care when I put them in. Sometimes I'll put always at the end of a workout, but I'll put them at the end of arm day or leg day or back day or I'll just mix them. just I have a commitment to 100 reps and I started getting strong enough that I can do them with one leg. >> So on the 45 degree you just you sort of like kick up one leg like you're a horse getting your your shoe clean or something. >> The the GHD that would have been insane. >> No, not on the GHD. I don't do those on the GHD. And then I just go slow and controlled. You don't want to be tilting from one side to the next so you really discover any imbalances that are there. You're bracing yourself and you just I'll do five five reps, switch to the other leg, back and forth, back and forth. And now I'm at the place where I can hold some weight or use a band. >> And I'll tell you, having a those strong spinal erector muscles, like my default posture has suffered in writing this book, even with a standing desk cuz you're just looking down some eyesight and posture. >> Exactly. But um yeah, there's some recovery that needs happening. But I did buy an inversion table. Those are fun. I love hanging. >> I've tried I've tried those. >> Yeah. You have to be careful if you have eye pressure issues like glaucoma. You can blow a gasket. You can make glaucoma worse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. eye pressure upside down not good. Um >> I don't have glaucoma so and knock on wood but having a strong lower back I noticed leg days are so much stronger pressing pulling everything just gets stronger and you don't want any weak links in the chain and I think Jeff Cavalier really nails it when he says you want to do the small things like face pulls back hyperextensions the glute medius work to stabilize the pelvis those little things allow you to do the big things for much longer. People say, "Oh, all that stuff is like namby pami stuff. You need to do just your squats and deadlifts and uh split squats." And yeah, the way you do those things into your 50s, like me with Yeah, I had this little shoulder thing, but no biggie. Um is and continue to get stronger is by doing the little things. >> And if you do the little things, you stay strong and healthy. If you don't, you are the person who's complaining about your back who can't deadlift or you're using a deadlift bar with like elevated handles from plates. You know, you're, you know, it's not not good. It's it's it's just you're becoming weaker through negligence, which is it's excusable, but it takes three minutes to do some hyperextensions. For most educated people as well that are into their training, they know that what they're doing is uh trading short-term gain for long-term fragility because they've got 5 minutes left at the end of their session and they're going to go and do another set of bicep curls instead of going to go and do some hyperextensions or whatever, right? Like it's it's always a trade-off and there's a level of ignorance where you're allowed to not do the thing that you didn't know you were supposed to do. M totally. >> But for most people that listen to you and listen to me, like my brother, you know that you should be doing lower back work. You know that you should be doing some mobility work. You know that you should be getting your heart rate above 170. You know that you should be going low and slow. You know you need to be walking after meals. The 10-minute walk postprandial thing. Like you know these things. It's ignorance is no longer an excuse for you. It's all out there. I mean especially since and I talk about mobility in the book. is basically get your knee behind your each knee behind your glutes at least once per day >> like a couch stretch. >> Well, yeah, like a couch stretch like Kelly Starret talks about or just a lunge where you're stretching your hip flexors out because sitting, walking, every almost everything is like knee in front of the glutes, right? Um, you could skip like Steu McMillan, but then you have to have the confidence to be a skipper. >> Are you uh sitting and holding? Is this more like a yin yoga type? >> Yeah, you could do it. I talk about just getting your knee behind your glutes or your foot up on a on a chair or stool and stretching that out if you're at the airport or something. I'll do, you know, 10 seconds per side, three times per side. You want to try and squat down once per day, as I talked about, like sumo squat. Put elbow on inside uh one knee and then looking up, being able to look up from the squatted position, point directly overhead. Most people can't do this right away. They have to, you know, start here and gradually, you know, over a week or so get to the point where they can look straight up at their finger. And then you want to be able to do it to the other side, too, right? But what are you doing here? You're getting stretching through neck, thoracic, spine, shoulder. It's not Look, they're great mobility programs, but most people don't make the time or have the time. These are the minimum, right? You do the the squatting thing. So, you do a couple of those. Then I talk about doing reverse what in gymnasts would call like kids would call like the crab pose where you you're in a reverse tabletop where you're you know, you push up for shoulder extension. Mhm. >> I don't have like excessively good shoulder extension, but I can get my shoulders behind me, no problem. You know, you have horrible shoulder extension. Okay. So, working on that a little bit gradually. And then there's something in there that I didn't develop, which is called which I um uh which is really cool called the founders pose. And I describe it there. It's from um it looks a little bit like a chair sit in yoga, but it's actually for the posterior chain. And I talk about that um and and that's described there. It's someone else's creation. I want to be clear and I credit him. um was really really cool. And those four things take you know 5 minutes to do maximum. You can do them anywhere. You can do them watching Netflix. You can do them at your desk. You can do them spread throughout the day to maintain some level of mobility. The other thing is use a full range of motion in your resistance training. >> Yeah. >> Sets. >> Strength is gained through the range it's trained. >> Oh, that's good. I like that. Um full range of motion and holding tension on the stretched position. Not, you know, indefinitely, right? Don't turn it into an isometric, but you know, really like on your hamstring curls, making sure that you're setting the machine such that on your seated or lying leg curls, you're really holding tension in the stretch, not passively stretching. And I find like my range of motion's pretty darn good. It's not amazing. Um, you know, I was real stiff for a bit in my midback and I did some work to get over that. You just move better. You'll feel better. You'll be more comfortable. So yes, I think that what you're pointing out that there's really no excuse for people once they have the knowledge gets to a deeper psychology. I don't want to parse this, you know, infinitum, but there are two things that I think are worth stating out loud. One is that if you're somebody who's in pursuit of taking care of yourself and doing well, there are going to be people that say like, you're doing all this stuff all the time. You're doing all this stuff all the time. Like what is this? These were the people that when I would go to scientific meetings would give me [ __ ] for not drinking on the first night. I had a rule. I don't go out the first night. But you find me on night three of a five-day meeting. And all day I'm rocking and like I'm engaged. I'm learning. I'm not at a meeting to socialize, but I do some of it. But >> I'm learning. I'm getting techniques. I'm there to work. Okay. And they're talking about their hangover. They look like garbage. And over the years that accumulates for them, and it accumulates for me in a positive way. Yeah. So people will give you a hard time for exercising. They'll give you a hard time for taking good care of yourself. And I do think that there the other thing is there is a certain loneliness that comes with being the person who's really diligent. It's a different community of people that I can call at 7 a.m. and go, "You want to work out?" And it's like, you might say, "Hey, listen. I was up way too late." You might say, "Yeah, let's go." It's a you your friend group changes. I mean as I have a friend who used to work with people from like really troubled backgrounds and he would say like somebody would occasionally make it out of that world and just leave completely. But many times they would get themselves into all sorts of financial and social messes because they would continue to like kind of revert to this world they grew up in. >> You've heard me talk about this lonely chapter thing, right? Like this is the whole idea behind that that there is a period where you are so developed that you don't resonate with your old set of friends but not yet sufficiently developed that you built your new one and you keep looking back and you're tempted. >> I think Martha Beck calls this the the empty elevator. >> Oh interesting. >> You're just, you know, between floors. That's beautiful. Yeah. The empty elevator. And then you get there and you realize, wow, there are other people who've also felt lonely who are now in this place who are doing cool things. And it takes a strength of character to say no, I'm not going to do that and yes, I'm going to do this and and to also not be defiant and also still be able to go to Thanksgiving and still Yeah. You don't >> better than you. >> Exactly. It's not about better or worse. It's just different. And that I think that people fear being lonely and I understand like I get it. You know, you're drinking buddies or you're you're eating lousy food buddies. The first night we land in a city, my team always likes to go out to dinner. I'm always in the hotel taking care of myself because I want to have the full week of vigor and they do great, but they're younger than I am. >> We'll see. We'll see that cuz we're going to be in New York together next week. Uh, last time that we spoke, you were telling me that you were teaching an octopus to use an iPad. >> Yeah, she died. >> But she died because >> was she electrocuted? No, she she died because she laid eggs and they die after they lay eggs. So they live about 2 years. Yeah. No. No. Well, they lay eggs and then the eggs get fertilized by a male and then they die. This is the life cycle of the octopus. So, I didn't know how old she was when I got her. They don't tell you. It's hard to to uh to know. Um and you have some sense. But yeah, she was in her second year. So, she she was really cool. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I thought it was a male, but that was pure projection, right? Um, and then I named him Van Gogh cuz he was a starry night octopus. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Um, >> didn't you replace with a new one? >> That one died, too. Um, >> maybe you shouldn't have kids. >> No. No. [laughter] >> [ __ ] strum is like looking around all the time like just waiting. >> The both of these octopuses were old. They were old. >> Okay. >> Yeah, they were. They were in the >> Have you given up on the octopus thing for now? >> No. Heck no. I have a new tropical tank. I got the dog. I got the other uh freshwater tank. Hell no. Um but I need to get a younger octopus. >> Okay. Like a purebred newborn and a puppy octopus. >> I just need I need either a male octopus or I need a younger octopus. >> I can't believe that you weren't able to discern whether or not you bought a male or a female. Who the [ __ ] were you getting this from? Um >> some bloke on Venice Beach. I swear. >> No, I get them legally, but um let's just put it this way. Their fate would have been far worse if they hadn't come to me. >> Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Salvage octopus. >> So, I have not done that yet, but I will say that um Van Go was spectacularly smart and um would sit down in front of the coral and mimic the coral. It was awesome. It was It was so cool. Um they're a little bit sadistic, which is a little bit troubling. I think we should probably talk about this so I can get over it. Um, we're in that like second phase of the trauma thing. Um, in all seriousness, like >> the weird thing about octopuses, they're a little bit of like drama queens. >> Um, because they're they play with you. So, like I I would hand feed Van Go and she would take the fish and sometimes she would just eat the fish, you know, and give it to her on a forceps and other times she would take it and she'd stuff it against the glass of the aquarium and slowly eat the eat the fish, then take a nap halfway through. And I was like, "Oh my god, these octopuses are pretty brutal." >> Kind of ruthless. >> Yeah. And then sometimes she would just like play with it, you know, and that's rough, you know. Do a dog is a benevolent creature. They're going to eat their food. That's it. A cat will play with its prey. >> Sephopods are [ __ ] >> I I like seeopods. I like cuttlefish. I had those for years. Kept those alive for a long time, by the way. >> Congratulations. >> Thank you. Um, so it was a little disturbing to see the octopus um, sadistically play with and partially eat its food. That's what it is. >> Yeah, we don't like to think about the animal kingdom that way, but if you look at nature is metal, that account. >> Yeah, that'll that'll teach you some stuff pretty quick. Uh, you got to get on a plane, my brother. I love you to bits. >> Did you get on a plane? >> Yeah, you got to get on a plane. No, I'm seeing you on Monday. Uh, sorry. On Tuesday, I'm going to be in New York. You'll be there. We'll do We'll try and get Rick and a couple of other people. >> So, we could do a wrap-up. So, well, I should just properly say um I should say thank you for hosting me. Um, grateful for your friendship. Thanks for supporting me through this book, for taking my calls at odd hours of my sanity. Thanks for supporting my restoring my sanity. And um I'm so glad we're neighbors. >> Me, too. >> And um fun to work out with you this morning. >> Yeah, you're the best. Where should people go to get the book? >> Uh protocolsbook.com. We'll put links to all the places you can buy books and different the books in different languages. The audio book is read by me and my voice. It's 19 hours long. Um, but you can hop to a particular section, learn what you want to learn, and then put it away. Come back to it anytime. >> Question. Question I like to ask authors. What is an insight from the book, either an intervention or an area or something that you think most people are going to skip over, but you wish that they didn't? >> The wacky eye movement thing to fall back asleep. >> Oh, we talked about that last time that we were together. Yeah. Yeah. I I think people think it's too crazy, but it's but it costs nothing and it works and it will get you back to sleep because it confuses your body awareness system. You need to forget where your limbs are. >> It is really [ __ ] like dizzying when you do it. >> It it you need to forget about your body position in order to fall asleep. That's a prerequisite to falling asleep. So, that will help. I think the one that people will skip over, frankly, is the personal development thing around how to finally let go of the difficult things that are you're still carrying forward. You know, I I can say 15 minutes of journaling on the hard thing one day and then subsequently on three more days, the data from Pennaker and others show conclusively it's a super powerful technique. But people just don't do it. And we should ask ourselves why don't they do it? And I think because the thing is hard and also nowadays getting people to write for 15 minutes is tough. I learned a lot about focus overcoming procrastination and scruffing oneself into doing hard things and writing this book. And I thought I was pretty good at doing >> when I when I have to write someone a card like if it's someone's birthday or whatever I realize I haven't done this in so physically writing a thing. I haven't done this in so long I've basically forgotten how to do it. But uh Peterson before he did 12 rules and then 12 more there's 24 there. The original um answer the original place that that was born out of was a list of 44 rules on Quora. Do you remember that place? It was a website where people get answered questions and somebody asked Jordan uh what are your rules for a good life or something like that. And he just listed 40 that include like pet a cat when you see it on the street. Don't bother children when they're skateboarding. Don't don't let your children do anything that let that means that you don't like them etc etc. And one of his that I remember from that was um uh if memories still upset you full comma write them down full stop. And it's like so much of this stuff is pointing in the same direction. Dude, you're awesome. Book's fantastic. I'm glad that you're not insane, but you are a little bit shortsighted now. Um I'll see you in New York next week. >> Thanks so much, Chris. You're a gentleman, a scholar, and a beast. >> All right, big love. Bye-bye, my beauties. >> Dude, >> thank you. >> Congratulations. You made it to the end of a podcast episode without dying. Now, here's another one. Go on, [music] watch it.