Why Your Ministry Can’t Come First (And What Should Instead)

Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub podcast. I'm your host, Megan Spear, and along with me today is my longtime friend, Eric Anderson. super excited to dig into a conversation with him uh as we continue this series on nonprofit 101 about what it looks like to start well and make sure that you're not burning out in nonprofit and ministry work because that is that is real and it is such a struggle. So, uh I know Eric has has long been in the ministry space and so he's got a lot of wisdom to share on that. So, super excited to dig in. Eric, welcome in. >> Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, it's great. Uh, so tell the audience a little bit about yourself. Um, full disclosure, uh, Eric works for an organization that I am a big fan of and have been a a volunteer with and a donor with for a very long time now. So, I'm excited for him to share some of that expertise. But, uh, tell the audience a little bit about yourself and your background in ministry and the organization that you're with. >> Yes. Well, my name, like you said, is Eric Anderson. I am the director of performing arts at Urban Impact Foundation. And Urban Impact is a nonprofit youth ministry that works in community and development on the north side of Pittsburgh. So our primary focus is to be able to come along students, the youth and their families and to be able to disciple them in Christ so that they can become the man or the woman that God created and desired and designed them to be. And so that's what uh I get to do in the arts. And whether that's dance, theater, instrumental, vocal, or construction trades, or technical arts, and we get to be able to >> or musical theater. >> Or musical theater. Yes. Yes. >> I can't We have a tremendous musical theater coach. Uh >> I hear she's pretty great. >> She's pretty great. Uh really, really wonderful. Uh her tap dancing is great. >> Oh, fantastic. That's actually uh I've been doing this podcast for a year and a half now and strangely my tap dancing skills have never come up yet. So I'm really glad that you brought that to the forefront. >> Yes, you'll have to do that just for a whole podcast just on that. >> But yeah, so it's really wonderful. We just are in the arts. We're about redeeming the arts for Christ. We want people to be able to use their gifts to glorify God the way that he intended them to. So it's it's wonderful. I've been doing this since 2008 and in uh some ways it seems like wow that's a long time ago but really uh I love what I do and it's been wonderful just to be able to do this for the past 17 years. >> That's so good. Um so I know you and your wife Laura are not from Pittsburgh, >> right? So you came here specifically to be a part of Urban Impact. So, uh, when, um, Laura and I were getting married, uh, she was living in Pittsburgh at the time. Uh, she, uh, she was here. And so, uh, I was in Columbus. I was actually in a ministry in Columbus. And we were praying about where God really wanted us to be. And especially as we were, uh, about to get married. And we were actually even considering at that time potentially going overseas into missions or just anywhere. We're we're saying, you know, God, where do you want us? And uh God kind of made it clear uh that we were supposed to uh go to Pittsburgh. And for me, I'm actually from Northeast Ohio. And so being a Cleveland sports fan, I was like, "No, God, anybody anywhere but >> anywhere but here." >> Yeah. Just send me to Africa Asia. Um but so yeah, God kind of led us here and started uh pretty much immediately when I came here through Alagany Center Alliance Church, found out about Urban Impact and started volunteering with them. And soon after I started volunteering, Tammy Glover, who has uh been a longtime friend and supervisor and uh started the performing arts at Urban Impact, uh asked me to kind of come on and help her with her vision of uh starting a performing arts academy and just growing from there. >> I love it. So, one of the things that I I think is true is obviously true about Urban Impact, but is true about a lot of organizations. um when you're talking about things that are maybe urban ministry or specific to kids, these are not tr like nonprofit gen in general, but ministry specifically is not a normal 9 to5 Monday through Friday. These are not a regular hour, regular schedule kind of thing. And so I think that's part of where maybe some of the burnout can start is that your job is all the time when you're on the front lines running programs like that. So, what have you done or what have you and your your family done? I know Laura's been a a huge part of your ministry. What have you guys done to really put some either boundaries in place or was there a season where maybe you didn't have those boundaries in place that you found yourself starting to get burnt out and what did you learn from there about how to set some of those limits up for yourself? >> Absolutely. I mean uh I mean you're hitting all these uh points right on the head where first of uh there's some great boundaries that you want to set kind of at the beginning and uh early on when I came on uh Tammy taught me this and she learned it from her father and u they kind of who was also in ministry and kind of put these things and it's really understanding the priorities that you need to be able to go into and this is you know you can apply this to anything but especially it helps with uh with keeping yourself healthy and when you go in into ministry and that's first first priority is God and being able to follow after him and then second if you're married is your uh wife or your spouse and then uh after that if you have kids comes your kids and then following that is your ministry or your work uh if if you're not in uh in in ministry you can say your work there and then lastly fifth is then your own recreational time and kind of your fun time or things like that. And it's really important that those kind of stay in that order too because um there are we understand a lot of times it's you want to be able to have uh maybe your fun time you got to keep down there but also recognizing that your ministry can't be above your uh your family or uh or sometimes too if you put your you can become a professional in it and become even become above what God is really calling you to do and maybe God's calling you out to do something else. Um, so kind of really keeping those uh those all in there and of course we see that echoed in through what Jesus talks about in his, you know, greatest commandment, love God first and then love others. Um, and then putting yourself down there. But really, that's helpful to kind of frame that in the line of ministry as well because oftentimes we can we can think of our job if we're working in ministry as well, that's what God wants me to do. We can put that above our family, we can put that above our kids. Um, and no, there's it's I I have to understand I have four kids now and those kids uh and uh I have to make sure that I I'm putting them above my ministry and I work with lots of kids and I love all of those kids and and um and they they are so important, but I need to make sure that I'm I'm putting my kids and the time above my ministry and then my my wife above that. So, and then God first ofuh all that. So, I think that's really important. And then something second also that you said is there are seasons. And um I was talking to Laura this uh this morning about about this and that's one of the things too that she just really said is you know Eric we've gone through a lot of different seasons of our life and there when I first started ministry uh I was newly married and trying to figure that out. U and so I had to make sure to kind of keep those boundaries of of time and to make sure that I still spent that time with Laura. And then that just even got harder as we had kids and had more kids. Um and and so going through those seasons of um even now it's like I'm in a phase where I don't have newborns anymore. Um and that's different. And so I have maybe a little bit more time uh to be able to put back into ministry that I I couldn't when I had uh a baby. >> Yeah. Um, so when you find yourself in a season where things are getting out of balance, >> what's what's kind of your first check to realize like, oh, hey, something's got to change because I'm sure that there are folks listening who, you know, who have maybe either are in that season right now or they're feeling that pressure, but what's the signal to you of like, hey, I got to make a change. something's offkilter. Where do you start to see those flags? >> Uh, I I would say the first time like there's there's flags that come up spiritually that maybe you might miss. Um, and so those things are kind of hidden because a lot of times if you're having something off with God, you'll find yourself maybe that you're struggling with something that uh of just maybe you're not getting his word or things like that. But those are oftenimes easily missed. And so a lot of times the things uh and and that's I and that's just even from my own experience where I those I kind of miss those spiritual red flags. Uh then what happens though is it really where it kind of starts to hit me is in in my home life. Uh where it's like uh Laura keeps me accountable with so many things. Uh, and if if our marriage is we're struggling off over something or if we find that we are um we getting into maybe a an argument or something about something where we're like, wait, we're on the same side of this like what are we even arguing about? But we find ourselves uh just being at at a tension. Um and and that that is probably where I see flags. I mean sometimes it can happen with with kids as well. Uh, and I' and I've seen that happen. Um, you know, where sometimes there's something where it's like, okay, no, I got to take this opportunity to be able to be with my uh with my with my child. And so those are those flags that come up, but oftentimes those flags um are are because you've already missed the things that God is already trying to kind of uh show you. And then you kind of got to go maybe can go back and look at those and be like, "Oh, yeah, actually all of my priorities are out of order because I've been spending too much time in ministry or uh because or I've spent too much time even on my own self and I haven't been able to really take that quiet time maybe that uh away to be with with God or to be with uh your wife or your spouse or um you know the your family as well. H. So on the maybe on the flip side because you have definitely been in the game a long time at this point, but as the head of a department when you because Urban Impact is constantly bringing in new missionaries, new fellows, new folks into the department, >> how do you maybe speak because I know we have the we have the new folks in our listening audience, but we also have the executive directors and the department heads and all of those folks as well. How do you as a manager encourage that in your staff and help them to like like make sure that we're not getting them burnt out at the same time? >> Absolutely. Uh I think there's lots of ways you can do this. I one way for me is I I try to be and and I've learned this from Tammy who is my supervisor is I try to be more generous uh with with time. So, I I love a calendar and I love being able to get to go out and see things in advance and we have lots of performances in the performing arts and so sometimes there's things on weekends and that can take time away uh you know that stacks up >> and so being really uh making sure that try to being proactive in that to be able to say hey we have a weekend performance I want I want to make sure that you guys are taking off uh sometime next week to be able to um to make sure you can be with your family or to take your Sabbath that uh if it's on a Sunday or something like that to to make sure you you have that time of rest. So, I mean, I love working hard um and I and I know I have a really hardworking uh department and so I really don't have to worry about that, but I um it's I I feel like as a manager, it's when it comes to the time of the people that you're working with in ministry, it's better to be more generous than to be like trying to count hours um when it comes time for that. So that is something that I try to be able to uh keep and and really try to encourage that when the the staff that uh is is working is making sure to take that time not just to do another project but to be able to take that time to say hey this is with your with your family. This is time this is your time to go on a retreat to s hear from God or whatever it might be. So that's an interesting idea, right? Because I think that a lot of times we get so caught up in the micromanaging of approving time cards and all and all of the details, but at the end of the day, one thing I think gets missed in nonprofit work or maybe a miss like something people don't realize about it is that you are there. It's again, it's not 9 to5, but you're putting in an overabundance of hours, right? all the time. So making sure to balance that out and not getting okay well you worked two hours here so I you can take two hours here and not micromanaging the details of that I think is a really good call out. >> Absolutely. And you see this with umh I forget where it is. Uh you guys this is what Google is for. You can look it up in the Bible. >> Okay. But I mean it's it's so much of the the uh the parable of you know there's the some people that worked like 40 hour like for on an event and then there's the people that came in just the last little bit and worked worked it but they still get the same amount of of pay or the same amount of reward for the work. And I found that that is very often um how it is. It's like >> we all work uh you know in our department for let's say light the night. It's our yearend annual Christmas program. It takes a ton of hours and hours above and beyond the 40-hour work week to be able to uh pull that off. But some people might work 50 hours, some people might work 60 hours that week, you know, like it's just a lot that we're kind of kind of putting in. And so to be able to say, okay, hey, you guys, we have to take off some time to rest, but we're all we're all going to be able to take this time because we're all in this together. And that that also not only helps prevent burnout, but that also keeps um people from comparing themselves to one another to be able to say, "Hey, we're all on this uh equal kind of playing field here." >> That's a good call out, too, because I think um that kind of attitude has to be modeled, right? There's a culture of like, I just need to keep hustling. I need to keep going. But if I see that my boss is making sure to take that time and being intentional about it, then it frees up the people at not not below you, that's the wrong term, but you know, the people who report to you uh to be able to feel okay about doing it as well, >> right? If you're if you as the leader are not modeling that, it's harder for them to do it also. >> Yes. Oh, I mean it is it is very important and I think it's they're also because I work with a lot of younger people that are either, you know, coming out of uh some of them are coming even out of high school as fellows like you mentioned or out of uh college or maybe they're just uh young in their in their careers. And so as best as we can model and help them to get this in their kind of working repertoire early on. And so when they do get married or when they start a family or when life just hits really hard or they you know they adopt somebody adopt a child or bring in a foster child and things uh just get more challenging like that that they are already have that into their system. Uh because I know it was different before I had kids that I I felt like I was like, "Oh, I could just work work work work work work." But also understanding that no, like Sabbath is meant for everybody. It's not just meant for the people that are uh have, you know, 10 kids, you know, uh it's meant for everybody. >> Yeah. So, when you I want to we're going to go all the way back to 2008 when you were just starting. Mhm. >> Is there something now as you look back at that season because we're talking to a lot of folks who are just starting their nonprofit journey and their ministry journey in this season. Is there something that you wish you would have known then? Like if you could go back and tell 17-year-old or 17 years ago Eric, hey, by the way, just here's what would you tell yourself now that you like you wish you would have known as you were starting out? I think the the thing and I I what I learned and I learned this about four years into the the program. Uh so we work with a lot of youth and that's about about at four years is when a lot of uh urban missionaries that work at Urban Impact burn out. Um and that's kind of like the average. So, uh, what I what I kind of learned at that time was, uh, and Tammy pulled me aside and said this is like it's yes, we are here for the kids, but ultimately our our main goal is to be able to follow what God has ha has for us. And if we get that out of order, even though being there to, you know, make disciples, make disciples of students is is like um, is the utmost important, it's we're making disciples for Christ. And so I think the main thing that I would have wanted to know just even starting out is we want to make sure that we're here for God's business, not the business of of kids, not the business of whatever your nonprofit is. We're we're here for for God's business. And the success is rides and diets on on him on the cross and on on who he is as a provider and not how much I am discipling a student. And so uh and that that's kind of one of those things where you know very practically four years into it I had some students that I had poured really uh really into and they they started making some choices that were really hard or um you know lying to my face about things and and I and I thought I was like I thought I was doing so well and I thought I was trying to pour so much into them and I was pouring a lot into them. In a lot of ways I was doing well and a lot of ways I was you know making maybe some mistakes too. But at that time I had to make sure like if it was if it was based the success was based upon their success then I would have been out at that time at four years >> but it it's really seeing what God has. So I think that's what I would have liked to have known just even earlier um and because would have helped put things even to better perspective and to continue to seek God first. But um you know there are some lessons that you just kind of uh learn a little bit the hard way. >> Yeah. Unfortunately, right? It' be so easy if we didn't have to do it that way. >> Yes. >> So talk to us a little bit about then the flip the whole flip side of all of this, right? Instead of the burnout is the reward because there is so much you know you know nobody gets I I shouldn't say nobody. I don't want to paint with that broad of a brush. I don't know of anybody that goes into nonprofit or into ministry uh for the paycheck, for the accolades. Like these are not what tends to drive those folks. Um it is all about the mission. It's all about the the impact and the doing of of God's work and good work. So outside of the burnout, what are the things that keep you going? What are those success stories maybe that you look to or even just the moments where you're like, "Yep, what I'm doing matters uh that keep you going throughout that process?" >> Oh, yeah. I It's It's wonderful when you get a chance to be able to uh see a student uh for for me to be able to say like, "Okay, this student is actually making these choices." And it and and they're making them and you see them make the choices on their own. And it's not because of something that I said or Urban Impact said or their their parents have said. It's just it's really exciting when you see it start to click. And it's you have those moments when you're like, "Oh, like this what I'm doing is worth it because like you said, it's it's the paycheck isn't isn't there for it and like the glory isn't isn't there for like, yeah, there's some great times where you, you know, people can, you know, clap for a show or things like that, and that's that's wonderful, but really seeing a student uh and seeing them make those choices on their own is really wonderful. And to be able to see um and and that can be a lot of ways, like people students coming back to volunteer, students coming back to be able to uh you know, run the programs that you started or things like that. Uh that is truly awesome reward and and God is so good and so gracious to me uh that so often when I find myself when I am at a place close to burnout or things like that there are those glimpses of like those nuggets of being like but did you see this like that's that's so good. Um, and so that's that's really just such a wonderful award because I mean if it's a I tell people this all the time, working at Urban Impact is a lot of hard work, but it's not a job. Like I love what I do. >> I really do. And um and being able to work here with these students and the the staff that I have uh is is just truly a blessing. >> I love that. Uh, so one of the things that I know you do because I've watched it happen, uh, is some of these, you know, we do a a Christmas show for Light the Night, but your summer program is pretty in-depth and pretty intense. And I think that for a lot of nonprofit folks, especially anyone that works with students, summer can be the the time, right? whe whether you're running camps or programs or whatever the case may be. Summer can be a really intense time to work in nonprofit on those front lines. >> Um is that a way that you all think about seasonality too? Like we know summer's going to be crazy so maybe in the spring we pull back a little bit or fall we know fall is going to be our busy season. I don't know that you all have a not busy season to be honest, but in general is when we think about planning for that, especially as we're coming into summer, how do you how do you guys think about structuring seasons that way, especially when you know one is going to be just super intense. >> Absolutely. You know, I I also learned this the a little bit the hard way too or just kind of it or grew a little bit as uh as my family grew especially is that you really do have to plan ahead. You have to know and you have to look at this to and to be able to sometimes to say like no we can take a week off. Um, so when when uh we had originally, my wife and I, we started a summer program that was a intensive Shakespeare program that we put together a show at the end of of the summer and we did that uh we started that before we had kids and then as our family grew it was very intense and we and we loved doing it. Uh but we actually ended up taking a summer off just because we were getting close to burnout. And so we just like, okay, we're gonna kind of recount of uh look at this to see, you know, what is important or how can we do this and and do this long term. And so one of the things that we did was uh very practically when we came back uh and did it the following summer is we said, "Okay, in the middle of the summer, we're going to take a week off because we understood that if we were feeling it >> uh as a family and that that was just so intense that chances are >> our our students or their families might be feeling it or our interns would be feeling it to be able to say, "Okay, let's take a break right in the middle of it." And it and it's hard to do because we were like, well, but that's right when we're getting going and we want >> we want to keep the momentum. >> Yes. Exactly. But it is it is turned out to be so so great. And now we don't miss it because it's built into our kind of our routine of things. Um and but the first year it was tough because we're like, oh, if we just had one more week or something like that. But um but yeah, so you really have to look at it and you really have to schedule it out and and if you have an already an existing program, it's really good to uh take a kind of when that is finished to be able to kind of look back at it and say, "Okay, this was good, but maybe how could we improve it or how could we look for the longevity of it?" And to kind of reassess maybe that is taking um some per like some specifically scheduled times off. So good. Um, okay. So, in general, if someone wanted to learn more about any of the programs you're talking about or about Urban Impact itself, where would we find that information? How do we get to learn more about you guys? >> Well, you can of course check us out on the web at uifpgh.org. And uh if you you can probably put that in the the comments or something like that, that'd be awesome. You so you can just click on that. And then uh another thing that you could just be able to do is you can you know follow us on Instagram or check us out on Facebook. >> There you go. Uh as we wrap up, my question to everybody this season has been if you could give one piece of advice to somebody who's just starting out in their nonprofit career, uh what would that look like? What's the one takeaway that one w nugget of wisdom that you would pass on? Uh this is a hard kind of truth, but this is something that Pastor Ed has said to me and when I first came on and also has said to many others. Uh it's if you can do something else, go do it. >> So uh that that's it. Uh but if if you feel that you're called to do this and if you're like no, I got to come back. I just you just has that itch you can't do it, then that's when you know. But because being a nonprofit, like we said, it's not about the money and it's like you're not it's not about the glory because that's not what we're here for. So yeah, if you can go do something else, go do it. If not, then then that's when you really start to focus in and be able to see what God is calling you out to do. >> I love it. Fantastic. A little bit of a hard pill to swallow, I'm sure. Right. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah, it makes it makes you think. Uh yeah, that's definitely but but a solid truth. If there's anything else you can do, then yeah, go do that. Maybe this isn't for you. >> Yeah. Yeah. Because otherwise you'll find yourself four years down the road and you'll just be going off to a new job. And the and but for those people that are sticking around or maybe on the edge like if you can stick it out like after three years between three and five years you really start clicking and then after that it's amazing to be able to see um what happens with longevity. You can be able to do so much if you're able to stick stick it out and be able to see um what starts to compound over time. >> Yeah. H so good, Eric. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your wisdom and insight. Certainly with 17 years in the nonprofit ministry world, you are speaking from expertise. So, I appreciate you sharing that with everyone. Oh, >> thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. >> Again, this has been another episode of the Nonprofit Hub Radio podcast. I'm your host, Megan Spear, and we'll see you next time.