Why You Should NOT Buy A Home In 2026 (Do This Instead!) | Pace Morby

How much real estate you have? >> 500 million. >> And how much debt do you have on that? >> 400 million. >> And does this scare you? >> I'm just getting started. >> Creative finance is dangerous. >> Why is it dangerous? It's [music] because it's so effective. My name's not on anything. I've not signed for anything. I've not applied for anything. If the world torches, let's say AI comes in and robots take over the entire [music] world and I lose everything, guess what happens to my credit? Nothing. You can [music] do anything. Planes, houses, RV parks. There's nothing you can't do [music] with creative finance. >> How do you find these deals? >> I don't go find houses. I find pain. What am I looking for? Foreclosure, divorce, bankruptcy. Pain, pain, pain, pain. >> What are your predictions [music] then for like the overall economy? >> The middle class is getting eaten alive. If you don't own a business or own an asset, there's no job that is paying [music] you as much as the cost of things are going up. It's just going to get worse. >> Explain how you're right if you're also the person that's making money off of all of these people. Pace Morby, thank you so much for coming on the Iced Coffee Hour. First question, how much real estate do you have? >> About 500 million dollars. >> And how much debt do you have? >> Probably about 400, between 350 and 400 million, something like that. >> And give the best pitch to the viewer right now why they need to listen to this episode. >> Right now is the number one time in all history where you can get free RV parks, free car washes, free houses. Sellers are in distress. They can't get rid of their properties because the market won't gobble them up. And talking about creative finance and buying creative finance allows you to buy them. >> How is it free? >> It's free because um right now I've got a agent right to our right that has a seller that can't get out of their house, right? They're locked in for whatever reason, lost their job. They can't make next month's mortgage, so I take the house mortgage over and then I turn around and hand it over to the particular house right here is Oxford House. I'm handing it over on a sublease to a government paid program called Oxford House. They pay the mortgage plus $2,000 a month, so I net $2,000 a month on a house I didn't have to qualify for. >> And how much of your real estate was bought using creative financing? >> 100%. >> So, what you're arguing is basically you're able to better capitalize on this real estate asset than the current owner would. Correct. So, why would they not just go around and do the exact same thing that you're doing? >> I asked the seller that a couple of days ago. I wish I could bring the agent up here, but the agent was right there with me in the living room and I said, "You know, you could just do exactly what I'm doing. Call Oxford House. They'll take the house. They'll lease it from you. They'll pay you $2,000 a month more." Why would the seller not want to do that? Cuz they're not landlords. They don't want to deal with that stuff. They have stress and all this cortisol pumping through their veins. All they want to do is get rid of the payment and not have to think about the house anymore. So, they pass it on to me because I'm willing to do that. >> So, all of this hinges on the idea of what we call creative financing, right? That's like a non-conventional way of borrowing money in order to buy an asset like a house, a boat, a car, RV park, whatever it is. How much of your $500 million of assets has been creatively financed? >> 100%. >> 100% of it? >> 100%. I mean, I'll do a refinance like after I've owned something for 7 to 10 years and I'll use a bank on a refinance, but I'm not using a bank to qualify for the loan. >> So, how much of this $400 million of debt is owed to banks as opposed to just like random people? >> Probably 20 million to banks and 350 to 380 million dollars is owed owed to sellers. >> So, does this not concern you at all? Because we talked to other people that have a ton of real estate and they have like 50% debt, 50% equity. You have like 80% debt. If the market goes down 20%, >> Yeah. >> it's all wiped out. You're basically at zero. >> In what way? >> Market value. >> And the market's going to force me to sell an asset that's cash flowing? >> Well, I'm talking market value. >> I don't I don't I don't pay my bills with market value. You don't pay your bills with market value. I That might be my net worth, but I can't go pay my grocery bill with that. There's not like a debit card that says, "Here's your net worth debit card. Go buy groceries with it." You pay your groceries with cash flow. I don't have time bombs. I have permanent debt with sellers that don't have time bombs. So, nobody's calling my notes due. Nobody's telling me I got a balloon. I don't have a maturity date. In fact, in my contracts with my seller, it states that if I cannot refinance based on interest rates or I can't sell they sign interest rates, my I can extend my note with them. So, I have a seller, for example, $5 million RV park with a 10-year note. So, he's financing me for 30-year payment, but he's giving me a 10-year balloon. So, I have 10 years to refinance, sell the property, or pay it all all off. And in the 10-year note, it specifically says that if interest rates are in a situation where I can't refinance or offload to new buyer, we extend another 5 years until they are. >> How is this good for the seller? >> They avoid capital gains tax. They get a higher purchase price. They also get interest on top of the money that they're seller financed. >> So, walk me through just a standard purchase. Like like a a template purchase. If someone wanted an average viewer out there wanted to put into practice what you're talking about, what would it look like? >> What asset type do you want? A house? >> a single-family home. >> Okay, we'll talk about this deal right here that I just did with David. So, um seller buys the house in 2022, gets an interest rate of 3.5%. They buy it with let's say a VA loan, so they put no money down. So, they have zero equity when they buy the property. In fact, most sellers don't have any equity when they buy their houses. They're paying over because they got closing costs and moving expenses and whatever else. The market kind of flattens. Interest rates are now 6 and 1/4, 6 and 1/2 for the new buyer. So, a new buyer can't pay what the purchase price is. And so, the seller's like, "We can't sell it without writing a check." So, the benefit to them is that his seller, Melissa and Kenneth, would have to write a check for 15 grand to let go of their house. Meanwhile, they have a 3.5% interest rate attached to it. Why that doesn't make any sense to go get a loan at 6 and 1/4 to pay off a 3 and 1/2% loan. It's crazy to do that, right? So, I went to the sellers. David calls me and says, "Hey, we've done deals in the past. I've got a seller that's in a bad situation." I got on the phone with the seller and said, "What's going on? What's your timeline?" They go, "Well, we can't make next month's payment. We lost our job." Are there a lot of people losing jobs right now? Okay. Are there a lot of people in foreclosure right now? >> Debatable. I guess it depends on the area. >> It's Yes, but there's it's growing significantly. We can I think we can agree agree with that, right? So, I tell Melissa and Kenneth, the sellers on this house, I said, "I will buy your house, but I'm not going to give you any money, and chances are you're going to pay the closing costs on this property, and then I'll take the house off your hands." Sellers go, "Absolutely. When can we do it?" Two days later, I'm in the house walking through the paperwork with them. They've already boxed up the house. Like, they're not waiting for the contract to be signed. They're like, "You're going to take over my payment, and you're going to let me out of this situation." Meanwhile, I can take a 3.5% interest rate and do something with it that seller's not willing to do. >> So, one thing that confuses a lot of people, it's been addressed before, but I'm curious, how is this legal? Like, if you have debt in your name, you got your credit score checked when you applied for a loan on a house. I can't just go in and say, "Okay, I am the new Pace Morby. I'm making payments on his behalf." >> Yeah, I don't go through I don't go to the bank and tell the bank, "Hey, I'm making the payments." We go through a servicing company, just like all your mortgages. Like, this company this property you bought, you got a mortgage with what company? >> Rocket Mortgage. >> And are is Rocket Mortgage servicing your loan? You think they are? They're not. There's a third-party servicing company. And so, I hire a third-party servicing company to pull the money out of my account, and they make the payments to the the mortgage >> Wait wait a second. So, it goes from you to the seller, and then the seller pays the mortgage. >> Like, Melissa and Kenneth on this particular deal, um they will I will never talk to them again. Even though the mortgage is in their name, the deed transfers into my name. Two separate documents. People think they're the same document. They're not. They're not even remotely close to each other. Mortgage is a a debt. The deed is the ownership, the certificate of ownership. So, the deed transfers into my name, mortgage stays in the seller's name. Now, this is one of 26 strategies I have. I do seller finance. I do lease options. I do wraps, and I do all sorts of stuff, but you are asking questions about sub two specifically. So, how is it illegal? Tell me that. >> Usually there's a due-on-sale clause. >> Okay, but does that make it illegal? >> It means that they have the right to call the mortgage. >> There you go. So, here's the process of the due-on-sale clause. The bank finds out normally through an insurance change. They don't find out through a deed transfer. They change They find out through the insurance changing from the seller's name to my name, okay? So, let's say that this happens one in 10,000 transactions. By the way, you will never meet a single person in your life, even as an agent, you've ne- never met one person that lost a house with a due-on-sale clause. You've never found them. You've only heard stories about due-on-sale clause, but there's never been Jim Smith lost his house to due-on-sale clause. It's never happened. >> heard it, but I also don't know that many people doing this. >> Okay, cool. Well, I know that tens of thousands of people doing this, and I've never known one person to lose a house with a due-on-sale clause. But, here's what happens. The bank sends you a letter, and the bank In fact, I have a copy of the letter if you guys want to put it in the show notes or whatever. So, the bank sends you a letter, and it says, "You have 35 days to either remedy the situation or communicate to us what you are doing." So, what do we do? Nine times out of 10, we call the bank up, and we say, "We're the new owners. The seller was about to go into foreclosure." And the bank goes, "Oh, okay, perfectly fine. We'll update our records. No problem." What does the bank want to do? Does Do banks want to own pieces of real estate? >> No, they don't want to foreclose on the house. >> They don't want to foreclose on the house. >> But, but if I were the owner of that loan, let's just say it gets sold a few times, and I have a 3 and 1/2% loan. I would want my money back because rates are now at 6%. So, I'd be way more motivated today to say, "Okay, well, that's >> But, this is not how mortgages work. How do mortgages work? Rocket Mortgage has already sold your note probably 5 months ago. Rocket Mortgage is probably just servicing your loan, and it goes to another company. This is how the whole 2008 crash happened is people were bundling up these mortgages and selling them off 25 times. So, by the time you get your mortgage originated, Rocket Mortgage already sold your loan a long time ago. They got all their money from your $1.3 million loan plus a a fee and they then rinse and repeat over and over and over. That's how mortgage companies make money. >> On the due on sale clause, do you ever look up the mortgage and say, "Oh, this is a small bank. We might have issues with this." >> No. Why wouldn't I? >> But if it's a small bank is holding onto the loan and they've held it on for like >> Here's Here's how I would Here if I get the due on sale clause called on me, the solution takes 5 minutes. So, I don't care who the bank is. I'm just telling you there's a likelihood of it getting called when there's a smaller bank. So, let's say a The The first bank I ever got done on is a bank called Johnston Bank. I helped a seller out of foreclosure, caught up his arrears. On Friday, we closed. Monday, we get a freaking email from the bank saying, "We know you bought the house subject to. We are calling the due on sale clause. You'll receive a letter in a week." I called the branch manager. I said, "What do you got to do? This guy was going to lose his house and you were going to have to foreclose, which is not good on you. It's not good on your rating. It's not good on anything." He goes, "Oh, no, no, no. I know, but I Instead of doing a sub-to deal, why don't you just do a lease option? Put the deed back into his name and then do a lease with an option to buy and we'll be happy with that." I'm like, "Oh, okay. So, that will solve the due on sale clause problem." This is 13 years ago. I learned from a bank what an attorney couldn't teach me. And so, if I get a due on sale clause called on me on a sub-to deal, I just turn I just go back to the seller. We re-deed the property back and we already have a a lease with an option already pre-negotiated and signed with the seller that we put into motion and the due on sale clause goes away. The due on sale clause happens when the deed goes from the seller's name to my name. So, how do you unravel the due on sale clause is you take the deed and you put it back in the seller's name. Mortgage money companies don't make money by lending money out. They have a temporary or warehouse like line of credit. And anybody thinks I'm wrong, tell me in the side chat or tell me in the comments down below. Tell me I'm wrong cuz I'm not. I'll fight you in an alleyway. I know I'm not wrong. So, what happens is Rocket Mortgage gives you a loan with their money on a warehouse line of credit, big warehouse line of credit, like hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. And they hold that for like maybe three to six months. They season that loan, and then what do they do? They sell it off to another company, they get that money back, and then they go do another loan. Rocket Mortgage doesn't give a crap about me buying a house sub 2. They sold that note a year ago. So, if you went into your records on your mortgage company, I'd bet you your note on this awesome new property you guys have has probably been sold already four times. So, think about the Think about the logistics of that. Which one of these servicing companies that are so disenfranchi- like so disassociated with this note they don't They're not tracking due on sale, they're not tracking deed, they're not tracking any of that stuff. They're just selling the note over and over and over and over in the secondary market. None None of these companies know that we're doing anything like this. Nothing. >> Side tangent here. I'm curious, because they're not aware of a lot of these loans, >> Yeah. >> are they also not aware if someone were to buy an investment property as a primary? >> Oh, yeah. I'm sure that that happens all the time. Like, people do this with the VA loan, they do with the FHA loan all the time where they're supposed to live in the property as the primary resident, and people what they do is you'll see people I I won't name the YouTube channel, but people teach people how to go get FHA loan, live in it temporarily, and then move out of it. That's not what I do. I don't teach people to go get loans. So, but that Yes, that happens all the time. How would they know? How would they know? Do they have a department in the bank that goes out and like follows people around and says, "You're not living in this house?" No. Have you guys ever called the bank and like got customer service? >> I don't think I've ever called a bank and got customer service. >> Okay, I have We do all the time. Like, wire transfers or whatever else we're doing. We're like, "Man, we're calling a a company in India. They're transferring us to another such and such." I mean, we're talking about Chase, Bank of America, all these big companies. Nobody knows deeds are being transferred. When the due on sale clause does happen, Jack, to answer your question, the due on sale clause happens usually with a small bank that keeps their loans in-house. So, it's never going to happen with a Rocket Mortgage or like my personal home. You Zion National Bank, I bought my house sub to 6 years ago. Please call the due on sale clause. I'll even put my address on my Instagram stories. I'll give you everything. They There's no department that even knows anything about due on sale clause. >> What I'm curious about is with all of this debt that you have >> Yeah, $400 million of debt. Non-recourse also. Think about that, too. Think about all the >> Non-recourse debt? >> Non-recourse debt. My name's not on anything. I've not signed for anything. I've not applied for anything. If the world torches, let's say AI comes in and robots take over the entire world and nobody can even live in any of the houses or go to my RV parks or any of my multi-family properties I own and I lose everything, guess what happens to my credit? Nothing. >> And so you said you're not necessarily worried about market fluctuations because if the market goes down, you don't pay for you don't pay your grocery bill with >> Yeah. >> equity. It's It's paid with cash flow. I'm curious, on this $100 million of equity that you have, what is it cash flowing? >> Millions. I like I just looked at four of my RV parks this morning. I've owned them now for a year. I looked at four of them. My CPA just sent me an email literally this morning on four of my dozens of RV parks. Do you know the difference between net operating income and actual cash flow? It's the It's the stupidest word. All you commercial guys are so stupid. They use this stupid acronym called NOI. It's the dumbest acronym ever. NOI stands for net operating income, which means your money you make before you pay the the loan to the bank. So, it's not real net. So, my true net on four RV parks is $700,000 a year net net net after every single expense. Those are four of my properties. Four. So, you're talking millions of dollars in net net free cash flow every single year. >> What I'm curious is what is your actual ROI when all of this is said and done? >> Infinite. I have no money in the deal. It's infinite. I put no money in the deal. I put no credit in the deal. My ROI, even if I made $1 would be infinite. >> Yeah, but I'm just saying, okay, so then return on equity. >> Okay, return on equity. This is now this is another conversation. Return on equity becomes problematic because let's say I bought a property 2720 North Sterling Avenue in 2019. I bought it with no equity. 392788 was my mortgage balance. I took over had zero equity. Gave the seller no money. I held on to that until 2024 and it grew to like $700,000. That property had roughly $300,000 in equity after about 6 years. Obviously I rode the COVID wave. And I looked at that equity and I'm like that $300,000 equity sitting in that property is not worthy of that money sitting there. It's not It shouldn't be there. So what did I do? I sold that single family house and I did a 1031 into an RV park and use that money as a down payment. So I get rid of houses that the RO ROE, your return on equity, is just not making enough money. >> What's the most that you've lost on a deal? >> Um it's always The only time I've ever lost money on a deal is a flip. Flips are a gamble. They're short-term gamble. So I lost money this year. I bought a property that comped at like 1.1 million. Had a busy street behind it. So we comped it at 950. I still couldn't sell it for 800. And so I ended up taking like a $50,000 bath on that flip. >> Why are you even doing stuff like that? Like at this point I feel like it doesn't make sense for you to try to flip a place to try to make $100,000 when you have like all of these buy and holds or when you creatively finance four RV parks to profit $700,000 a year? >> Yeah. >> Like how do you pick which battle is worth your time? Quick thank you to Ethos for sponsoring this episode. Most of us work to take care of the people we love. And when you're the person that they depend on, that's a responsibility not to take lightly. For example, I have two mortgages and payments like that add up incredibly quickly. And let's just say something were to happen to me. I would not want to place that burden on my family. That is where our sponsor Ethos comes in. For those unaware, Ethos makes getting life insurance fast and easy. It's 100% online. You can get a quote in seconds, apply in minutes, and get same-day coverage with no medical exam required. Just answer a few simple health questions. 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Did Dairy Queen start out with hamburgers or ice cream? >> I have no idea. >> Think hamburgers, right? >> out with ice cream. That's why it's called Dairy Queen. >> Dude, okay. >> Well, I know they have >> [laughter] >> I know they have hamburgers. I don't know. >> So, what they did is they found that um Dairy Queen makes way more money on hamburgers and fries than they do on ice cream, right? The margin is just way bigger. And so, they added hamburgers and fries later in the game. Does that mean that they should get rid of their machines and their systems and their processes and their marketing for all their single-family houses? See what I did there? So, I get like, for example, the agent that's sitting to our right called me. I've built a brand, I've built systems and teams that handle all my flips. I don't go to any of them. I don't talk to the contractors. I don't deal with the money. And that little business makes about a million dollars a year, and I only focus in Phoenix, Arizona. So, why is that a good business to have? It's because when real estate agents call and they go, "Hey, I've got a seller in a bad situation. I don't want to put this on the market." I go, "Well, I could flip it. I'll flip it." And if I say no to a real a real estate agent, let's say, I go to a real estate agent, I go, "Sorry, it's not a good deal for me. I'm not flipping anymore." What do they do? They then go to the next investor, and that next investor is going to get the RV park that they might be listing or the other property that is a co- could be a co- good co-living deal. I say yes to things that I already have systems and processes from 10 plus years ago. So, why would I turn them off? It's like telling Dairy Queen, turn off your ice cream machine that you already built. You already have this machine because you make more money on hamburgers. Why can't I make money on both? So, just give a definition of creative financing like I'm 5 years old. Okay. Um what do you have there? What kind of phone do you have there? >> Uh iPhone 17. >> Okay, so an iPhone 17. You next year I'm sure will upgrade to an iPhone 18. If you don't, you're crazy. It's the number one tool in your pocket. So, you're going to upgrade to a a new phone. That phone, you're going to go put it on Craigslist or you're going to do something with it. The average person is not Jack. So, you might use it as a camera, whatever. But let's just say the average person is going to upgrade their phone to next year. That phone next year will probably sell on Craigslist for let's say 700 bucks. Would you agree with that? >> Yeah. >> So, let's liken this like putting a house on the market. If I put this phone on Craigslist at 700, am I getting that $700 on Craigslist? >> Yeah. >> No, you're not. You're getting an offer at 520. You're getting an offer at Which is when you're a real estate agent, this is the crap you deal with is that you get people that lowball you on your listings, right? And so, instead, I call that phone seller and I go, "Hey, it looks like that's been on the market for 30, 40 days. I'll pay you the 700 bucks a month. I'm sorry. I'll pay you the $700 you want for that phone, but I want to pay you $100 a month for 7 months. Are you willing to do that?" And so, they're willing to wait for the 700 bucks to get their number, but they have to just take it incrementally. I take that phone, go make money with it. That's creative finance. So, I do that with planes. I do that with businesses. I do that with RV parks. I do with all sorts of stuff. >> What's the weirdest thing you've creative financed? >> I'm trying to creative finance a a train right now because I want a train in my backyard that I turn into like an Airbnb type of thing. But the weirdest thing I've actually completed on um owner finance was an American a vintage American flag. There was like a $5,000 flag. I paid the guy 50 bucks a month for 100 months. >> Why don't I just pay the guy the the money and >> Cuz it I did I made a YouTube video out of it just just show people like I can literally create a finance anything. Um I'd say the cool >> 100 months how is that a firm? >> Yeah, I'm like a firm. >> Isn't that like eight something years? >> He could he his the best offer he got was like 3,200 bucks. And so think about this, his American flag is vintage. It's been sitting in his whatever barn for whatever amount of months. He's not doing anything with it. So for him he's like fine if you give me my 5,000 bucks. It sits on my barn in my in Montana and I call my Montana farm the creative acres. And so when people pull up I go yeah I bought that with creative finance. The plane my son flies, he's a pilot now. That plane I bought no money down, no interest and no payments for two years. And I work I worked a deal with the seller. I said, "I want my son to get into a point where he's making money as a pilot." And the guy goes, "I never had a son. I always wanted to teach him. If you buy this at my number which is like 118 grand." It's a older uh plane. And then I'll I'll seller finance it to you. And I go, "But he's not going to make money for two years." He goes, "That's fine. We'll structure a deal that when he starts making money that's when the payments start." So you can do anything. Planes, houses, RV parks. Um I've got a landscape company under contract right now. I've got a wedding venue in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee under contract. There's nothing you can't do with creative finance. >> It sounds like you do too much. Like like you're starting to acquire wedding venues and you're trying to buy a train in your backyard to rent as an Airbnb. That's where you live. Why are you >> It's not an Airbnb like I'll rent it out but when I have guests come over I don't want them in my house. I want them like out in the train. >> You want them in the train? >> Yeah, I want them in the train. >> Okay. So I just feel like at this point like you you must have some very excellent operators. >> I have 200 employees. I have great partners. I I don't Have you been to my office in Tempe? >> I mean you've seen my operation. It's a big operation. Like I have I've done videos with Cody Sanchez who's like, "How the heck are you doing all you're doing?" And then you meet my team and you're like, "Holy crap." Now, I started very small. I started in my Prius. I met with real estate agents on houses they couldn't sell back in 2013, and I built it up from there. And then when you get one asset that makes $10,000 a month, I could either A, live on that money, or B, I could take that money and go and acquire a good talented person. So, how can someone use creative finance to build wealth then? Like, starting from zero, what would you recommend? If you were to replace your your knowledge that you have right now, let's say you go back to being 18-year-old person with zero dollars, what would you do? >> And here's the other thing, too, I've noticed. You had It seems like you have to be a good people person. Like, you're a good communicator, you have good confidence. I think if you walked in as a bit sloppy, you know, it wouldn't come off the same way. >> I agree, but I also have people from all over the people that learn from me. I mean, you've had people on your that have watched our previous episodes, literally took action from what they did, came back and sold me a deal, and I'm like, "You are the sloppiest person ever. How did you get this deal under contract?" When a seller's in pain, a seller's in >> about our viewers being sloppy now? You're the sloppiest I'm sorry. Okay, that is that is fighting words right there. >> Um, but I've bought a lot of deals from people that have watched your our episodes. They've come back to me, which is what I love about your channel. I've probably um, I don't know, I've probably done a good 50 or 60 deals just from people that have watched your channel, done what I said, and then came back to me through my DMs and said, "Hey, I have a deal, do you want to buy it?" So, they're not super practiced. When you find a seller that is in big significant pain, the solution is sub two. The solution is seller finance. The solution is a lease option. It is the only solution. It's not a cash solution. In fact, I would argue that probably um, 10% of deals on the market right now should not be selling for cash. And when a seller truly understands creative finance, how it saves them money, they get more money, saves them money on taxes, they get more money long term on their interest rate, why would an intelligent investor or an intel- intelligent seller ever sell for cash? In fact, I would tell your parents to never sell anything cash. You're going to give 25% of it to the government, and then what they do is they take their net stake that they earned, let's say for example, I've got a RV park. I've got an RV park, seller's name is Eric, and Eric wanted to retire. He bought the park for 1 million, 15 years later it's worth 5 million. Okay, so what's his gain? He's got a $4 million gain. How much is he going to give to the government? A million dollars. Is that what you want your parents to freaking do? And this is what people are doing. It's like, oh yeah, just list it on the market. Yeah, great. So, we're going to pay a broker, another broker, we're going to pay freaking capital gains tax, and your parents are now left over with out of their $4 million gain, they're left with like 2 and 1/2 million bucks. Then the worst part is now where they going to put the money? In stocks? Cuz nobody loses money on stocks, right? Like that doesn't happen. Well, stocks have done incredible these last years. >> Oh yeah, last couple years. Just like multi-family people, you know, having their good run, right? >> The reality is the best thing your those parents or these people should invest their money is in is back into the asset as being the bank. They can avoid the capital gains tax, they can get interest on their money, and it's an asset they understand better than anybody else. >> So, it's interesting. I'm listing, well, I just listed one place for sale in LA. Four offers over asking. >> Oh yeah. >> By the way. >> it. >> Um that's going through. I'm listing another place in a week and a half, probably a 1.3. Now, I got a 3.675 interest rate on it. Uh why shouldn't I sell? >> Okay, so what's your sales price? >> I I >> Just guess to me. Like where are you >> I'll just say 1.3. >> Okay, so 1.3, and you have an underlying loan at let's say 3 and 1/2%. >> 3 and 1/2% uh yeah, two because I I did a pledge to asset line, too, to build out the ADU in the back. So, blended, I'll call it 3.7. >> Okay, cool. So, you got 3.7, and what's that total loan amount? Like combined. >> 725. >> Okay, so you have roughly 600 Let's just say $600,000 in equity. For you, an intelligent investor that is young, you should not sell this on seller finance. I'll give you an argument why you should, but I think you should sell that, take that money and 1031 it into something else. I know you don't want to be in real estate right now, so you want to be out. I want to be out. >> I think the problem with most people that are out on real estate like Cody Sanchez, I've seen her on your channel go, "Oh, people don't make money in single family houses." I'm like, "Really? Let's go look at my P&Ls. Let's go look at I don't do regular rentals." That's another problem. Regular rentals are where people get their asses handed to them. So, for you, I would take your $600,000, pay your gain, roll that $400,000 into something else or not, you know, whatever you're going to do with that 400 gain. But, let's say that I'm older and I don't want to roll that money into something else. I don't want to tie my capital to something I don't understand. That's a very quality piece of real estate, would we agree? And in 10 years, it's probably going to be worth more than the $1.3 million. It >> could be. >> Okay. It will be. Obviously, it's LA. It's going to continue historically. >> LA's got reamed. It's selling at 2014 I'm selling >> Spencer Pratt for for president, dude. >> Santa Monica selling at 2014 prices. If you had bought in Santa Monica multi-family in 2014, you've made no money in the last 10 years. >> I think you're smart for you specifically selling that asset for cash. Like I said, 90% of people should sell cash, 10% should sell on creative finance. The argument would be this. Let's say you relisted this property, but you said for rent rent to own, right? And you let people do a lease with an option to buy 10 years down the road and you let them lock in a specific payment with you. But, you sold that asset to them not for 1.3 million, you sold it to them for 1.6 or 1.7 at a future option. So, you're locking in an extra three or 400,000 dollars on that property and you'll collect cash flow along the way. So, doing a lease option would make you more money, it'd keep your money tied up in an asset that you trust or at least that you've it's made you money. And you'd have 10 years and at the end of that 10 years, you get three, four, 500,000 extra. >> Yeah, but then you have the risk of Well, let's say there's a big earthquake. >> Yeah. This is why you have insurance. I think the bigger risk is something different. The bigger risk is if that tenant doesn't complete the transaction and now you have to take that asset back. >> Right. In my world, I call that the after-party. I want that to happen. So, when I sell on a lease option, I want that tenant to fail on their option for whatever reason. We could Man, we could talk about lease options for 5 hours. And they come back and they go, "Hey, I need an extension." No problem, $20,000 I'll give you an extension for 2 years. But, let's say 70% of lease option tenants don't actually execute their option. What do they do? They move out, I get the house back, I resell it again on a lease option, I get an option fee, and I I just go do it again. >> We're selling options. >> Selling options, yeah. >> Jack loves options. >> I love options. In stocks. >> Yeah, of course, yeah. >> Did you guys see the homeless lady I helped out? >> Yes. >> So, that homeless lady I helped out, what I did with her is I go, "Let's buy a sub-to deal. No money out of pocket." Literally from a cot in her homeless shelter, and let's turn it into a rent by the room. And so, what she did is she has one room she's living in and nine rooms she's renting out, and she's bringing about 850 per month per per room. She's using a website called padsplit.com to manage all of that stuff for her, cuz what does she know about investing? So, if I'm young and I want to have a place to live, and I want to kind of like arbitrage a sub-to deal, I would go to creative listing.com, I'd buy a deal on there, and I would rent out the rooms, and I'd have a free place to live for the rest of my life. >> Are you looking at the broader housing market and determining what you're buying and what you're not buying, or do you only care about cash flow? >> Um okay, so I've made some big mistakes in my career. My biggest mistake is that I branched out my single-family properties. I have I at one point had 300 single-family properties, which is about 275 more than any human being should ever own, and most of them were in 15 different markets. And so, I am now selling things that are in markets other than Maricopa County. I will buy RV parks. I just bought an RV park in New York. I bought an RV park in Reno or um Lake Tahoe area on California side. Like, I'm buying real estate in California and New York because they cash flow and they're good assets. And they're not ugly pieces of crap, either. Like, your audience might go, "Oh, you're buying pieces of crap." No, I'm not. I just bought an RV park. It's called Intown RV Park. I just closed on it 2 weeks ago. All seller financed. Sellers are retiring. It's the number three RV park in the country. USA Today just came out with a big article saying these are the top 10 RV parks. Mine's number three. Bought it seller financed. No money out of pocket. So, um I will buy stuff that makes sense where I can get into it with as little leverage as possible that makes money on day one. >> What is the main obstacle for the average person in order to get to a spot where they can make these deals happen? Is it like an education thing? Is it a motivation thing? Is it just a charisma thing? >> Now, hair loss doesn't just change how you look. It changes how you feel walking into a room. 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Is it just a charisma thing? >> I have a lot of people that are that are friends of mine that are not very charismatic and do very very well. I people that are immigrants that don't even speak English well and they do very well with creative finance. It's in Primarily, I'd say it's like 10% education, 90% execution like anything else. I mean, you guys have had some incredible freaking guests on your show. And I'd say 90% of people just don't do anything with it. Like they love it, they consume it, but it's executing and going out and making a mistake. They're afraid of making a mistake. >> So, what do you think is the the best thing that you can possibly say to get someone to execute? Like if they're listening to this right now, they want to creatively finance something, build asset value, what would you say? >> I'd say go to creativelisting.com. Somebody's already negotiated a deal, got it under contract. You can just take that deal and go do something with it. You it removes 99% of the risk out of the transaction. >> Do you own creativelisting.com? >> not. I do not make money on it. I don't get a I don't get paid from them. >> Do you make money on education? If you looked at one of my education products uh uh called Gator, one of my three, that thing loses like 40 grand a month. So >> What is What is Gator? >> I just tell people I teach people how to do private money lending like, "Hey, you might be a 9-to-5er and you have $50,000 and you want to jump into a deal, but you don't have time to manage it. You could also partner with somebody else." I teach them how to do that kind of stuff. >> W- Well, how is it education then? >> Because then it helps the other members of my other part of my community sub two. They end up funding their deals. So, sub two community finds the deals, Gator helps fund those deals, and so I create like this really cool ecosystem where they help each other out. >> And but what about any other ways that you educate for money? >> Um I don't get paid to educate for money in that regard. I buy Like this year I'll buy $100 million in real estate from people I teach, right? Like David, for example, finds me on your guys's podcast and I'll buy a I'll get a free house out of it. So, the more podcasts I go on, the more books I write. Like my book I wrote with BiggerPockets a couple years ago, that book sold hundreds of thousands of copies. I think I told BiggerPockets take all the money and give it away. I don't want the money. I want people bringing me deals. So, I make money off people bringing me deals. And one thing I did when like 2013 to 2018, I had an acquisition team that I managed. I don't like sales people. They're high turnover, high maintenance, high commissions, all that kind of stuff. And the main thing with sales people is what do they want to do? They want to take your job. At least in my experience. So, um what I did is I go, "Oh, let me just educate the masses, build a YouTube channel, and people will bring me deals, and I'll part either partner with them, buy those deals, or help fund those deals for those people." >> What's the most money you've ever made on a deal? >> Cash flow wise, my best asset makes net $100,000 a month. It's a Tucson property. It's La Primera at Green Valley in Tucson, Arizona. Look it up. It's a 161 unit multi-family I bought for $20 million. Seller financed. The seller owned it for 35 years, was afraid of capital gains. His His kids didn't want it. We bought that deal at $20 million, no money out of pocket. He gave us a 4% loan with a 20-year balloon. And on day one that was netting about $65,000 a month. Now it's netting $100,000 a month after we've raised rents and done some stuff. When you go to buy your next primary residence, what are you going to do? Are you going to just go pay it off cash or you want to go get debt? >> I would love to creatively finance it. >> Okay, so all you have to do, this is so simple, okay? Any Where do you want to Tell me your crossroads. Where do you want to be? Primary or neighborhood you want to be at? >> Summerlin. >> Okay, Summerlin. So, you want to be in Summerlin. I bet you right now I could pull up a deal in Summerlin and call an agent. We should do this on an episode. Like let me just do this. I could call I don't call agents I respect people on Sunday. >> Oh no, Sunday's the best day to call agents. >> No, it's the day that you get yelled at. And also people are like, "Don't you respect family time?" I'm like, >> I don't know any real estate agent that doesn't work on a Sunday. >> Bro, I know >> Dude, that was my busiest >> 95% of real estate agents, Graham, don't work any day. What are you talking about? >> the day every agent holds an open house on Sunday. >> Those are the ones that don't have any business. Only agents that are doing open houses have no business at all. >> I would disagree. I think some big listings, good agents get in there. They meet all the neighbors. They meet They meet so >> Yeah, for sure. Like when you have the listing and you're doing an open house, you're trying to get you're for sure. I agree with you. Um okay, so here's a company I also don't own, but this is what we use. Um there's a company called dealsauce.io. So, if you go on dealsauce and you map into Summerlin and you find listings that are over 100 days and you click on the no equity button and then you reach out to those agents and say, "Hey, would your Would your client be willing to let me take over their mortgage?" That's how you get a sub two deal. It's take takes two steps and like three clicks of a button and you've got a list of people in Summerlin. I bet you >> There's It's a large master plan community. I bet there's 15 people in there that are listed over 100 days right now. Agent is not, you know, confident they're going to be able to sell for cash and this seller probably has a 4% or lower underlying mortgage. >> What are your thoughts on the overall real estate market over the next 10 or so years? >> You obviously you have to be bullish on it. Like I think single family is going to have a big shift and it already is happening. And the shift that's happening is people I don't like this. So, when people roast me in my DMs and tell me, "Oh, you're the one that's ruining our neighborhoods." What's happening in single family right now is what needs to happen in single family is that nobody's figured out a solution to affordability, right? Two things are actually happening in your city right now massively. Go look up padsplit.com right now. There's probably three or 400 houses that are room for rent right now. So, what's happening with single family is most investors are converting over to a padsplit model where they're renting out the rooms. And then the second thing that's happening is what's happening right now in your city, which is incredible. Boxable and developers are working with the city and the city is giving grants to developers to take up all these like empty dirt lots you guys have everywhere. Those are going to be tiny All those are going to be tiny homes in 7 years. Your entire city is already going It's going to be completely full of tiny homes Boxable built. Your city is coming out with a grant for these developers to rent out to people that can't afford it. It's already happening. >> See, I don't think Vegas has a affordability problem. There are so many houses out there that you could rent for dirt cheap. You don't need to buy a house. >> The problem >> You could find a house down the street from me for rent right now at $2,650. You can't tell me that's >> That $2,650 bucks is not affordable for the average person. So, the average >> It is. You rent it with a buddy. >> Guys, tell me in the comments right now if Graham is wrong about this. He's wrong about this. Okay, renting with There you go. You're renting with a buddy. >> No, you're just getting a friend if assuming you can't pay $2,650. And by the way, and that's a nice area. That's Summerlin. >> I agree with you, but here's >> You could find rentals at $1,300 >> Do we agree that people are lazy overall? >> Graham I don't know. Graham's like pessimistic >> half the time and then like >> He's like >> I think it's just nature to be disagreeable. >> No, I think $1,300 is absolutely affordable for almost anyone watching this podcast. >> PadSplit's average rent is like $850 a month including utilities, internet, cleaning, and landscaping. $850 a month. And they're renting out a room. So, what's happening is they're saying, "Hey, that buddy model of like let's split the rent." They're saying, "Let's get it even lower." Because things are getting so freaking astronomically expensive. And so, what's happening right now is your single family market, especially in your non-HOA neighborhoods, are getting gobbled up with co-living investors. In fact, a lot of Airbnb investors are switching over to the co-living co-living model, and the Airbnb people are just abandoning that whole model. >> I just see with the vacant lots, they've been vacant for decades. >> Yeah, it's like >> And what are people going to do with them? >> Bring in plumbing, electricity, foundations, roads. It's not viable to put a Boxabl on there. A Boxabl works when you're putting it behind someone's house. When you're putting it on a piece of land that you've owned for a long time, >> I agree with you but who's going to pay for it? >> But who's paying for it? >> They have it No one's living in Boxabls right now. Listen, I love the concept of Boxabls. >> been approved. The first two-acre lot is like 5 mi away from here. The developer's already gotten money from the the city, and Boxabl is coming in and and putting this in. >> love to see them do it at scale. Because they've been saying this now they've been saying for 5 years. For 5 years they've been raising money saying, "Oh, it's coming. It's coming any day now." And if one drops it, fine. But I want to see this done at scale for under $300,000. >> If the government is going to be in charge of it, it's going to fail. When you have private developers coming in that say, "Hey, I'll take care of it and I'll I'll run it." This is what's now starting to happen. This is how the first project just got approved like 2 months ago. It's going to take over your whole city. It's going to take over Phoenix. >> And what does that tell you then about the overall real estate market? Like what How do you think that's going to affect the >> I think the world that we live in is getting so separated between the haves and the have-nots. And so you either focus as a real estate investor on ultra luxury, like Grant Cardone, good friend of mine, I love Grant. He's focusing on luxury apartments, or you focus on affordability. It's one of the two. That's it. You're not There's no middle ground. In 10 years there's no middle ground. There's no middle class. There's no All of that's going away. So like people buying properties like this, this is this is upper upper middle class buying a cool property like this. People can afford stuff like this. And it's just going to get worse. Jobs are going to go away. I see Elon talking about, "Oh yeah, we're you know, we're going to produce" And I love I'm a huge fan of Elon like I think anybody is. Even the Democrats that hate him secretly probably love him secretly, but I love Elon. He says, "We're going to be into a phase where like nobody has to worry about money." I'm like, "When's that going to happen? And and how do people pay their bills? Do we just get government credits?" I think the middle class is going to go away. So, you either as an investor focus on ultra affordability, which I'm choosing to do because it's a lot lot larger problem to solve or you focus on ultra high-end luxury. Like high-end luxury, I'm sure you're seeing this, they have no problem. Those houses sell for cash. And the people that are buying those don't care about interest rates. They're just paying things off with cash, right? So, it's bonkers to me when you go into certain areas like Paradise Valley in Phoenix. Do you guys know that city? >> It's really nice. That's where we were. >> Average we filmed there. >> Okay, so you guys got a bunch of people in Paradise Valley, which is like right where I live, and you've got houses at 25, 35 million dollars. Those people are paying these houses off cash. So, that's a completely different world. Let's push them to the side. Also, your guest, what was his name from LA that was like, "Oh, creative finance is not a thing." >> Jason Oppenheim. >> Okay. He only focuses on the 1% of the 1% of the 1% of people in the ultra luxury. And when I talked to him on the phone, he's like, "Yeah, you're right. That's who I focus on." Push those people out. That's not real estate investors. They're not Nobody's doing that. You got to focus on affordability. If you're not a focusing on affordability, you're going to get your tanner to you. >> Airbnb >> any words for Jason Oppenheim like if we call him right now like >> Yeah, he's genius. I told him on the phone. I think you had me and him on the phone. I think he's a genius. I'm just saying you have to compartmentalize these conversations and be like, "Jason focuses in Beverly Hills where none of this is applicable." Like none of what we're talking about with affordability is applicable in Beverly Hills. Those people are like, "100 million bucks, no problem. 20 million bucks, no problem." And half those properties are probably paid off with cash. >> But then you do have a ton of middle class residential single family homes. And so, you're saying those to be those will no longer exist as middle class homes. You're going to need to pad split them. You're going to need to do rentals and >> that are happening right now. So, the number one thing that's happening big, massive. Look at padsplit.com or furnishedfinder.com. I do not get paid from either one of these companies, but furnishedfinder or padsplit.com, look on their website and see how fast their listings are growing rapidly. Not just from people converting Airbnbs over, but just people like me. I'm I bought a house for no money and I'm turning into a co-living property. So, co-living is huge, massive. This is taking over the world. Drug addiction is a big problem in this country, right? So, what's the government doing? They're funding people like Oxford House, again, nonprofit. I don't get paid from them. Oxford House is coming in and taking these houses from people like me and go, "We'll pay you whatever your mortgage payment is plus $2,000. Sublease triple net. So, we take care of the repairs. We take care of utilities. We take care of literally everything and we'll give you a 5-year lease." >> How do you get approved for Oxford House? >> You call Oxford House up. oxfordhouse.org. >> They're turning them into sober living facilities because they get money from the government. >> Yep. >> I would argue, not saying they're associated with this, but a lot of them that that I got some shady, shady people. >> with you. >> Sober living. >> Whole thing. It reminded me kind of of the hospice thing, where it's like you'll go into these places and it's >> They're scamming insurance companies. There's a lot of them that do this for sure. >> Not everyone. >> Oxford House is not. I work with Oxford House. We have a a bunch of properties with them all over the country. They're great, but there's a lot of people that utilize that strategy as a shroud to steal money. Um another company is called padmission.com. So, padmission.com is kind of an amalgamation of every nonprofit in the country that helps out like battered women shelters and all of those types of things. People that are maybe handicapped. So, again, government funding. What's happening? Padmission is coming in and leasing properties plus 2,000 bucks. So, whatever my mortgage payment is, they're coming in with government funding. So, like so where people are going to be like, "Well, what about Section 8?" Dude, Section 8 barely gets approved on any house. Section 8 has to be approved. The voucher has to be approved. I dabble in Section 8 just like anybody can. But, am I a Section 8 investor? Am I an Airbnb investor? Am I a co-living investor? No, I'm an investor. Right? I don't Like if you're a watch collector, do you only buy Rolex? By the way, your guest the other day, what was his name? >> Nico. >> He's so freaking good. >> Yeah. >> He's He's one of my favorite YouTubers. I love him. He how he talk about everybody is the best. Um by the way, I almost wore my Hublot. I'm just kidding, I don't have a Hublot. So, um you've got And then you've also got assisted living and then TBI. So, uh traumatic brain injury stuff. So, what's happening with all these single-family houses, they're converting over to other asset types. Like the house I just bought from David, I was talking to the seller, Melissa and Kenneth, and I said, "Well, you know, I might turn this into a sober living or something like that." You know, I'm in their living room talking to them and go, "Oh yeah, we've got three sober livings right here in our neighborhood." So, these neighborhoods all over the country are converting into government-funded stuff. >> So, basically your argument is you take real estate away from people that can't capitalize on it very well or they don't want to be a landlord, they don't want to have the burden of turning their house into a business, they want to continue doing their W-2 job or whatever it is that provides their income. >> Right. >> And you're able to go in, get this house, their equity, whatever it is. You're able to sub to the house, acquire it in some way, and then capitalize better on it. How are you able to decide which of these like five different branches of like sober living or you want to do pad split or you want to do you know, like >> for battered women? >> you this question? That's the freaking greatest question. >> curious like which which of the five are you able to >> something to teach all your whole audience is that you as a real estate investor do not determine the strategy, the house determines the strategy. So, what we do as investors is we go market for pain. Okay? So, I don't go find houses. >> find pain. >> What am I looking for? Foreclosure, divorce, bankruptcy, code violations. I'm looking and marketing for pain. People with no equity, people that have been on the market for a long time, expired or canceled listings. Pain, pain, pain, pain. I don't look for houses, I look for pain. As they come into my funnel and I talk to those sellers or those real estate agents, depending on if I'm direct to seller or direct to agent, I then determine, "Hey, this house is four bed, three bath, no HOA. What would that be?" That's going to be a pad split. Um if it's a um three bed, two bath house and it's in an HOA, I'm going to do sober living. So, the house and its size and whether it has an HOA and sometimes it's proximity to public services, I will then determine the exit strategy based on what the house tells me. >> What's the overall most profitable thing you can do with a single-family home? >> Co-living. >> So, that would be PadSplit. >> That would be PadSplit. And the reason being is because the average PadSplit is eight bedrooms. And so, even when you have a tenant leave, it's kind of like a multi-family environment in a single-family property. >> So, I have a friend Spencer Cornelia and he had three >> Yeah, he had a a few like co-living houses >> self-managed them. He did >> think three of them caught on fire. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> They did these things. >> not one, it wasn't two, it was four. Shout out to Shout out to Spencer. I love Spencer. I think he's genius. He's done a great job with his brand, but he was self-managing his stuff like a knucklehead. You just get give the property over to PadSplit, let PadSplit take care of it. >> And so, it mostly has to do with tenant selection. >> Tenant selection is what will prevent your house from catching on fire. >> PadSplit screens them. Also, what's interesting is like if you're self-managing a co-living property, you're doing your own lease agreements. PadSplit will screen all the tenants, they collect all the money, and then they're the ones that set up the agreements, they market your property for you. What Spencer was doing is doing all the self-management stuff. I think it was because he was trying to save the 8%. And so, for me if your property Think about this. The property I I just bought a deal a couple of weeks ago. The underlying mortgage is 3.5% decent. Our average interest rate that we're taking over is like three and a quarter, okay? So, people are talking about, "Oh, I'm at six and a quarter on my mortgage." Guys, our average is three and a quarter. So, I get a three and a half percent interest rate, the mortgage is about 3,100 bucks, but I'm going to bring in 9,100 dollars on a PadSplit after my management, my utilities, my cleaning, and everything else, it'll net about 3,000 bucks. So, the cost for other people to handle it is about $3,000 a month. What am I trying to save money for if the property is going to make me 3,000 bucks a month and I got I got it with with no money out of my pocket? Where Spencer, shout out Spencer, genius, love him, where he people like that go wrong is like, "I'm going to try and you know [snorts] change my own oil and save 40 bucks. What are you doing? Just have Jiffy Lube do it. Have PadSplit do it. What are you doing? So, yes, you're going to have problems if you do try and do stuff yourself. >> So, you think he just picked the wrong people. He didn't screen. >> Yeah, and how does Spencer have that much time to be screening and talking to any I don't know one tenant's name. I've never looked at I don't even know what my tenant agreements look like. What is he doing? >> How do you prevent it that the tenants don't fight amongst each other? >> Oh, the great question. So, the average tenant Oh my gosh, I want to Can I take you to one of these houses next time I'm hanging out with you guys? >> Maybe. >> I'll take Jack. I think Jack I think Jack is willing to go into one of these houses. I don't know if you are. Um So, Jack, do you remember the house you turned down me down on? >> I didn't turn you down on it. Don't even start with me right now. No, I I Yeah, I do, of course. It was Myrtle or whatever. >> Dang, good memory. Yeah, so Myrtle is the name of the property. That property has nine tenants in it. We've never had a problem. The average tenant is a is usually like somebody who just graduated from nursing or graduated from college. They don't have a lot of money and they have student debt. And so, they're looking at saying, "If I can pay 850 a month, utilities included, I can pay off my student loan debt." So, they're, you know, close to a bus stop. They're close to whatever. They don't want to see anybody. These are not just regular people off the street. They're usually working professionals. So, I think the my biggest thing when I first jumped into PadSplit type of business was, "Where are they going to park?" Half of them don't have cars, so that's not a problem. "They're going to fight with each other." They don't. I'm sure Spencer's do cuz he didn't screen them. Um but we're getting people that are like recently graduate graded from school and their biggest motivation is I got to pay off student loan debts. >> And where do most people fail? >> Managing stuff themselves is probably the number one thing that I I would say people fail at. >> What's the biggest mistake they make when doing that? >> Bad tenants. Um not being really nice to tenants that give you a bunch of crap. Like they say they're going to Maybe you've dealt with this in the past where a tenant says, "I need 3 more months." or "I need 3 more days." and it turns into like now I got to foreclose on I got to get you out of here. I got to evict you or whatever. So, you just have hard lines. You say no, no, no. We're not trying to charge you an extra fee. We just got to get you out. What I like about PadSplit's model is that it's not a regular tenant-landlord relationship. These people are part of a club, and so there is no like formal eviction process, so you can kick them out right away. >> What areas would you refuse to buy in? In terms of >> Rural. And if I'm buying RV parks, I'll buy anywhere, right? I've got parks in Big Spring, Texas. I've got parks in Odessa, Texas. Like oil-filled country, places you would never want to visit. Um because they make money. But when you're talking single-family, I don't want anything rural. Nothing rural. >> What about places like California, Los Angeles? >> Single-family, hell no. There's no way I'm buying a single-family property in California. No freaking way. >> But you'd buy multi-fam. >> I would buy I would not buy multi-family either. If a human being is going to raise a family there, there ain't no way I'm going to California, Washington, uh Illinois, um and New York. No way. >> Why? Just because it's not affordable or they're not paying >> the politicians hate you. They don't They It's like Think about this. If my dad owned a Subway sandwich franchise and somebody came in, had my dad do all this work, build the sandwich, and at the end he asked for the money and they walked out with the sandwich, that would be theft. So, in our world of being a landlord, if somebody walks away with free rent, that's theft. And my states that I invest in, the red states primarily, there's blue states that are really good. Colorado is not bad and some other places, but the red states treat it like a business. Get the hell out of my house. This is my product. I sold this product to you. You didn't pay. Get the hell out of the house. The blue states are well, these are real human beings. Well, yeah, so am I. I'm also a human being, too. And somebody in the comments can be like, "Oh, you're such a landlord piece of Okay. Maybe I am. But I give them affordable rents. My rents are always 10% below market rents, and we give them great properties to live in. There is no possible way I'm going to California. I mean, you guys in LA, you have this thing I don't know what you know more than I do. You have to pay your tenants to leave when you decide you're not going to renew the lease. Like you have to pay tenants like 40,000 bucks? >> That's depending on the circumstance, but yes. In Santa Monica, it was crazy. I think it for a one bedroom, you had to pay $27,500. If you raise rent as an owner-occupant higher than 10% a a year and they leave because of the rent increase. >> Yeah, there's 27,500. In the other states, there's none of that happening. Zero. California, New York, Washington, Illinois, basically all the places people are fleeing. >> How would you fix housing market then? If you could go to California and wave a wand and say, "I'm going to fix the housing market. Things are going to get more affordable. We're going to bring back development." What would you do? >> I think the red tape. I mean, you look at Pacific Palisades is a really good example. It's like look how long it's taking. No permits have been issued. None of that kind of stuff. So, I think that's a big thing. Same thing in Hawaii. Like look at that big fire that happened what, 3 years ago? And still no buildings happening. So, it's the red tape. It's the bureaucracy. I would fix a lot of that stuff. And then I would also incentivize builders. And I would help I would actually try and subsidize the builders to build more stuff. The other thing I would also do is unlock a lot of government state land that's just barren. Like look at You've been in Arizona much? We bro, we have hundreds of thousands of acres of state land that people could go build on, but they don't unlock it and it's nothing. Nobody's recreating there. Nobody's doing anything there. Unlock some of the property. Let us use some of it. I I would I would fix it that way. >> So, you said you think that the middle class is just going to continue shrinking and shrinking and shrinking. What are your predictions then for like the overall Like how do you know that's going to happen? The overall economy, what are your predictions? >> It's happening right now. The The middle class is getting eroded right now. I mean, look at the How does anybody and this is weird and I'm going to sound really entitled here, but how does a regular family survive on less than $10,000 a month? They have one kid. Insurance is 1,500 bucks. I mean, the the middle class is getting eaten alive. If you don't own a business or own an asset, there's no job that is paying you as much as the cost of things are going up. So, it is happening it has been happening. It's just going to get worse. >> So, how should a member of the shrinking middle class reframe their mind or educate themselves better or like what do they exactly do to be a part of the haves and have nots? >> listen to what Cody Sanchez says. Looks Listen Alex Hermosi, listen to half the guests that you guys have on here. You have freaking the best guests on the planet. And I would own an asset that pays you. So, for me my favorite assets I own are RV parks. They have no management. The people that manage those RV parks live at the park. They raise their families. The parks have no management there. So, people that are afraid of having single family houses, I get you. I don't like regular rental on single family. I would go to like a creative listing or crexi.com or loopnet.com and I would look at RV parks that are all on owner finance. If you go on crexi.com, I don't own the website I'm sure you've heard of crexi it's massive. If you go on crexi.com and you go in the search bar and you type in owner finance, do you know how many properties right now are for sale and owner finance on crexi? 16,000. Like this is not obscure. >> But then if it if there's so many things being offered and this is such well-known stuff, like how wouldn't it be too competitive to be able to find like a truly great deal? >> Yeah, and how many of those 16,000 are worth buying? >> I don't know. That's a good question. I know that when I look at an RV park, we could jump into that conversation, but I look at an RV park I usually have to look at 40 to buy one, but that's because I'm buying stuff that if it doesn't hit a net cash flow of $15,000 a month, we won't even submit an offer. And so, there's a lot of parks that get sent to us from brokers that just don't fit that buy box. Like somebody sent me in San Antonio the other day a 12 pad RV park. That it brings in $3,000 a month in revenue total a month. Like I'm looking for $15,000 a month net. So, you'll I'll look at 40 RV parks and probably 30 of them are not even a good fit. So, one in 10 that I submit an offer on we get a a contract on. >> And then what about getting a good deal? Like how how are you even able to do that these days with the amount of competition? You said 15,000 listings on crexi. All of this stuff is becoming very well-known. >> You in the comments, if you're a broker that actually understands creative finance, tax implications of a seller, inheritance law, all of these things, 99% of real estate agents don't understand it and 90% of brokers don't understand it. So, my competitive advantage is that when I call the brokers, and the brokers can't sell a a park for whatever the seller wants to sell it for, I go, I can get you the number, but you're going to have to get educated on how we get there. And so, most of what I'm doing is getting them their number, but I'm just structuring the terms to benefit me. >> And so, what are the best negotiation or sales strategies that you employ when you're trying to get a good deal? >> And really quick, I got to say that when Jack and I first started the Ice Coffee Hour, we had to figure out everything ourselves. 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And so what are the best negotiation or sales strategies that you employ when you're trying to get a good deal? >> Logic. And I don't use like one-liners. I'm not a big sales person like an Andy Elliott or somebody like that. I don't I'm not a big sales person. I understand what the seller wants. So, for example, RV parks. What When a seller is selling a cash flowing machine, why are they selling? This is the most mind-blowing thing for me. Why would a seller sell a property that's netting their family 25 grand a month? Why would they do that? Hassle, maybe? They never They're called We call them accidental landlords. Their CPA told them, "You should buy real estate cuz you'll get depreciation." Now they own an RV park and it became their full-time job and now they've sat there at that RV park for 20-plus years and they're like, "Nobody in our family wants this." So, accidental land landlords, they never bought a second one. So, if you want to pull a list of RV park owners, pull There's 27,000 in the country. You can pull a list, distill it down to one park owners, it's like 92%. Most RV park and mobile home operators are single like operators, mom and pop. What are their Their biggest concern is, "I want to retire and enjoy my life, but I'm in stuck in the park." They never learned operational efficiencies, they never had software, they never knew how to delegate to a team member. They don't even know like 90% of the sellers I talk to don't even know there's a website called workcamper.com. Again, a website I don't own. w o r k a m p e r where you can just find people to manage your parks. And they'll come in there and live at your park. It's a mind-blowing >> good? >> They're incredible. What they're doing is they are raising their families, they're homeschooling their families. They want to live in an RV park, raise their kids around there, and then every 6 months move to a new RV park and see different parts of the country. There's like 35,000 people on workcamper.com and the site is free. Sellers don't know it exists, right? So, you go to the seller and you go, "I can help you retire. I can get you a monthly check. I can get you the number you want. I can help you avoid capital gains tax. I can get your broker paid in the process." The seller's like, "Why hasn't my broker told me about this?" Like, you you got an agent right here. Nobody told his seller, besides him, nobody talked to that seller and said, "The lady works at Merrill Lynch." And she goes, "I've never heard of this before." She manages all these big families. I go, "You've heard of family seller financing stuff." She's like, "Oh, this is similar to seller finance." So, like, even a high-level lady at Merrill Lynch who's subtoeing her house to me did not know what creative finance was. It's just I don't know if it's just commonly not known. So, of all of these different strategies, like also the the I know you're doing car washes now, you're doing RV parks, you're doing single-family homes. >> You're doing car washes now, bro. >> Yeah, hopefully. We'll see. >> You are? >> I'm get I'm I'm >> We'll see. I mean, if it turns out like the last one, we'll see if it ends up working out like the last >> a car I bought a lot I'm building a car wash in DFW and we just closed on a lot. He's coming in as I'm bringing him as a as a partner showing the ropes. >> Hopefully it works out. What what's the catch if there's no money to come in? It's cuz otherwise it's then it's just seems like, "Oh, I'm going to get jacked." >> Yeah, Jack will get Jack will So, the average RV the average car wash I'm not a car wash genius. The person you should have on the show is Vic Keller. I've texted you with him. He's incredible. Had an exit with Warren Buffett at $6 billion. Genius dude. He's been my mentor on car washes right now. So, I'm building car washes. We're going to bundle those up and sell them off at some point in the future, but the average car wash nets $43,000 a month in his portfolio. So, 5% of that would be like 2100 something bucks a month. >> I'm curious. Of all of these different things, you have the car washes, you have the RV parks, you have single-family homes, commercial real estate, yada yada yada. What is the most profitable in terms of overall >> RV parks. Not even remotely close. >> So, how what makes it more profitable than >> There's no management. There's no cap backs. Like, think When you go to a When you go to one of my RV parks, which I hope you will at some point, you will walk out there and go, "Where are all your employees?" There are none. And then people go, "Oh, you should buy laundromats." No, you should not buy laundromats. You should buy an RV park and put a laundromat on the RV park so that the local community can use that laundromat at your RV park, but your RV park is the main staple. There's no management, really. The person that does manage it does live on site. You find these people, they work basically for free rent plus a couple thousand bucks a month. They raise their family there. And there's nothing to fix. It's gravel. I've got gravel. And maybe one or two little buildings. Multifamily, my biggest asset, um I have a big asset in um North Houston, it's 580 units. Bro, 580 tenants moving in and out of these freaking units where we're constantly fixing the property. It cash flows, it makes money, I'm happy about it, but if I could But this is my personality. I look at Grant, I look at other people are doing what they're doing. I nothing against what they're doing. In fact, Grant's way smarter than me, I think. But on the RV park side, it's a lazy asset that makes a lot of money and you can buy a good one for like three to seven million dollars on seller finance and they net 30 to 40,000 dollars a month after every single expense. I call them the only asset that's a one and done. You buy one and you're done. Like you can buy one RV park and be done. What's the hardest part of making an RV park successful? Is it like a buying the actual lot of land, getting it in the right area, or is it like marketing it? My My hardest RV park is Glacier Peaks in Montana and um Mountain View in Montana and Beargrass RV park in Montana. They're right by a Glacier National Park. So, what's the problem with Glacier National Park? Seasonal. So, six months out of the year you lose money, the other six months out of the year you make a ton of money. So, it balances itself out. So, those ones are challenging. I would not advise somebody starting out and buying a seasonal RV park right out of the gate. I have other RV parks like um in DFW, Tennessee, New York, California, Big Spring, Texas. Those are all like permanent residents that stay there permanently and you don't really have a lot of turnover. I've got one under contract in Odessa, Texas where the average tenant's been there for 7 years. So, it's like they're all different. They're They're not the same. >> Isn't RV parking though sort of like a middle-class thing? >> No, it's low It's It's low-class. So, you're renting dirt from me for like 400 bucks a month. >> But then you bring in your own trailer. >> Mhm. They bring their own Yeah, they bring their own trailer. So, who's >> Oh, but I thought you said it was seasonal. Like people Oh, so you're saying they would rent it for like 6 months? >> Yeah, they rent they rent So, my season >> like a vacation thing. >> Yeah, the ones that are seasonal, they're coming in for like the national parks. And they're recreational. Then there's other RV parks like my Big Spring My Big Spring Nobody's going to Big Spring, Texas to vacation. They're going there to live there to work in the oil field. And so, what happens is the oil fields come to us and they go, "Our employees have nowhere to live. We are giving them a per diem. Can we just give you a contract to rent out all 40 spots?" And so, the oil field companies will rent out the spots for their workers. >> So, does it even make sense anymore to get a property with a conventional loan? >> The BRRR people that teach BRRR and like sell BRRR courses are going to lie and say yes, it does. >> Why wouldn't Why would it make sense? >> Um >> Why would they say >> Why would they say that? Because they're buying in like half-assed cities that are like $40,000 per house so that they can buy a house for 40 grand, put $10,000 down, renovate the property, put all this time and energy into it. The problem with the BRRR strategy is what? It works, first and foremost. It just doesn't work that well, and it also dies in bad economies. The BRRR strategy has basically been decimated the last 5 years. So, you buy the property. How do you buy the property? Hard money. Like 90% of these guys are going and buying a freaking rental property with hard money on day one. They're putting down payment from their retirement account. It's the worst strategy when you really think about it. They go get a loan to then buy the property with hard money. They then renovate the property with their cash or a private money lender. They then um rent it out. Then they can refinance it into a second loan. And now, what are you gambling on? What's the average bird deal take? Three to four months. Is the interest rate in three to four months going to be the same as the interest rate that I bought it today? No. So, you're gambling on I hope my I hope my loan is good in six months when I'm done renovating and stabilizing the asset. I think it's one of the most challenging strategies on planet Earth. If you tell a brand new person, go get a loan to then renovate a property to then refinance that property, you're getting two loans on one deal. It's not a beginner strategy. It's a really really challenging >> get two loans, but not at the same time. >> No, but you're getting a hard money loan, which is how it 10 to 12% interest only. Then you're gambling that that deal will refinance and banks are actually lending money in six months. Let's say you bought a deal in January of 2023 that you thought, "Oh, interest rates are going to stay at 3%." This is what happens with all the multi-family syndicators. They're gambling with debt. I don't gamble with debt. I go to the seller, who is the number one bank. The number one bank on the planet is the seller. I go to the seller. Will you give me permanent debt I'm debt I'm going to buy this deal and I'll pay you a monthly fee. And if I run into a bad situation, I can renegotiate that debt because the seller doesn't want to take that house back. I've never had to do that, but I can technically do that. >> that strategy really works so well. I haven't heard of anyone doing the BRRR method in years. >> It's been five plus years. >> It was really from 2012 through 2019 that that strategy really got popular and worked consistently because interest rates is like >> market appreciating will allow a BRRR strategy deal to work. >> But also interest rates were so stable. They were like >> predictable. >> 3% to 4%, maybe four and like and a half. It's like over a year. >> If you look at like one of the I know I won't say his name cuz he's a good friend of mine, but if you look at one of the big original BiggerPockets hosts, he lost his entire um BRRR strategy portfolio last year. Why? Because he bought on adjustable rate mortgages. And so, what happened from 2022 to 2025 is all his rates doubled, his cash flow shrunk. I don't have that problem. Like creative finance does not have that problem. Sellers are not giving me adjustable rate mortgages. They wouldn't even know how to pitch that to me. So, I'm getting permanent uh debt that does not have balloons and I don't have anything that's maturing. Like everybody else right now, look if you go on X right now and you look at everybody that's a multi-family syndicator, they're talking about the bloodbath. One of my favorite guests you guys have is Ken McElroy. >> Mhm. >> He's the only intelligent multi-family guy that is online. He is so freaking good. He is one of the smartest dudes on the planet. He has patience, so much patience, and he's buying like and he's planning things 10 years in the future. Multi-family is a very, very challenging game because you're playing the you're playing the battle of I'm waiting to see what the bank is going to do. In creative finance, you don't have to do that. >> Do you think that now is a bad time to buy a house overall? >> You and I will disagree with this. >> Okay. >> And the the disagreement you and I have is that I think people that rent are stupid, and people that buy are smart. And the reason being is because you're going to make the argument, and I think I we should have this fight. Renters will ultimately have more money to invest in the stock market. >> Could be could be anything. >> They won't. They won't. The average consumer in America will just spend that on stupid When you get locked into a permanent savings account, which is a mortgage that forces your family to save in that house, that is the American dream, and that is why I disagree with Grant. I love you, Grant. I disagree with him. I think the Not you, not me, not you. You're intelligent, you're investors, and you're thinking intelligently. You will and most of your audience will rent a property and intelligently take that extra savings that they are not putting into a bad mortgage or a high interest rate mortgage, and they will invest it. But 90, I'm making that number up, a very high number of people will not. >> Yeah, but the only counter to that is that if they're not paying rent, if they're not investing the difference, then they're paying the difference anyway. >> Right. >> Probably the bank, to probably insurance companies, to probably property taxes, repairs, and maintenance, which is arguably more than what they could just rent for. >> I No, they for sure their mortgage is going to be Let's say their mortgage is $2,000 higher than their rent, I still think that they should get a mortgage. >> Unless they stay there for like 10 to 15 years. >> Agreed. >> Which the average person is also for dummies averages is not. And so in the first year so little is going to equity anyway that it makes no difference. They may as well just save the money. >> The first 10 years almost none of it goes to equity, right? It's like the amortization schedule would basically dips off after like 11 years. So the first 10 years you're getting your handed to you. But the reality is if people are not forced to save, they will not. And the the math shows it, right? You you look at the average person that's renting, their net worth is like 40 grand. The average homeowner, their net worth is 400. >> I don't think that's necessarily the house. I think it's the type of person who's able to save a down payment is the type of person to buy a house who is the type of person to be smart financially overall. But I don't think it's necessarily just because they bought the house. >> I if I if I went to Jack and I said, Jack, you're going to rent or you're going to buy a house. What do you think is better for you? >> In a vacuum, I would say buy. >> Okay. >> Right? Like right now in the in the context of the economy and like my own financial situation, I would say probably rent. >> Interesting. Okay, what about you? >> I would rent. 100%. If if the houses that I like you said if I'm responding like in a for me particularly, but then again like my situation does not apply to 99% of people. Yeah, it makes sense to rent. >> Mhm. >> But like for I agree with you. Like on the side of the the argument here, I would agree that realistically even if you're only saving $500 a month in equity and it's like $2,000 a month in interest, realistically people are not going to be saving that. Like if you look at consumer debt, if you just look at like debt in general like people are not saving money whatsoever. >> I agree. >> Period. >> Everybody's got credit, all that kind of stuff. >> But maybe that's because they're paying 6 and 1/2% mortgage rates and property taxes that >> But we just said that like >> But maybe that's the reason that worth of like people that own homes is higher than the average >> Yes, but but those surveys caught people who have owned real estate for decades. >> say I just just like >> I know that because I know you're shifting goalposts. It would it's it's entirely different when you say when you look at also properties purchased in the last 2 years. A lot of those have negative equity. I see a lot of places in Vegas, too, where they bought 2021 and they cannot sell for the same price today. >> Yeah, that's That's where I That's where I buy sub-2 deals. And I I take a house that somebody is maybe underwater on. And I will convert that into something that cash flows. And then I'll let the tenants pay down >> a good point. I mean, with that also being said, if you have so many people that are in that situation, then for those it could make more sense to rent. Yeah. But that's also obviously contingent upon, you know, their job security and usually like >> Yeah. I think overall, general speaking, the average renter is not saving money. >> I agree with that. I mean, the average person period is probably not just a >> Right. That is correct. Yeah. I would still say renting is the better option. >> Yeah, explain how you're right if you're also the person that's making money off of all of these people that bought when they shouldn't have bought. >> I mean, look at the investor world. It's a very small subset of people, right? So, I'm talking to a very small people group of people. But renters are not listening to you, right? Everybody here is going to be owners. They're not renters. >> So, you're talking about the average listener here. >> Yeah. >> But the average person maybe should rent. >> No, the average Okay, sorry. It's the actual opposite. I think your your group is intelligent enough and hyper-intelligent that they follow investing advice, they follow Graham's YouTube channel, and they know where to put their money. And they're probably smart enough to allocate that money and what's the word? Disciplined enough. People that are not listening to your show should be buying a house and forcing themselves to save their money. >> But then if the dumb people are buying, then they're going to get foreclosed on. And then you're going to be be making money from that. >> Okay, maybe that's my marketing mechanism. I don't know. >> That's smart. >> you call them and be like, "Hey, I'll just take over your payments." >> take over your payments, yeah. >> It's It's a complicated situation. Realistically, also, if you are getting foreclosed on in your home, like you probably haven't gone to the lengths of like renting out each room. You probably have not like tried to pick up every extra shift imaginable, drive drove on Uber on the side, like increase your income, decrease your expenses. Like if you got into a mortgage, chances are barring a divorce or something, like it's going to be really hard to stop affording that. >> I would say that the average person that I I talk to on foreclosure that are like 2 months, 3 months behind, and they're still not addressing their foreclosure, and they're just like, "Yeah, c'est la vie." Those people are highly irresponsible people, and a lot of times they're on drugs. A lot of the times they're in all sorts of turmoil and craziness in their life, but the people that are like a month before I'm not going to be able to afford my payment, they're aware. Those people are highly intelligent. They go, "I don't want my credit to get bad." And they'll let me buy the house sub two without any >> Those people would have been better off just renting. If you I think a lot of people if they if they're smart enough to come up with the down payment, >> do they know they're going to lose their job, right? >> then they if if they don't have enough savings to begin with, >> You're almost manifesting it. You're almost manifesting it. If you're just like, "I might lose my job, I might as well just rent." >> No, I don't I have a different mindset, I guess. I think it's a terrible idea to buy a house if you don't have a proper emergency fund in place with a consistent income to keep up for anything that might happen in the following 6 months, including including the >> about renting. I think the same thing about renting. If you can't If you lose your job and you're renting, your credit gets destroyed. >> at all. Because when you sell a house, your closing costs could be tremendous. >> Yeah. >> 6%. So you have to sell higher than where you bought just to break even, to not come out of pocket. >> But who's buying a house that you're going to sell the house right away? And why do >> that's you would hope not, but look at all the people right now who are selling for less than what they paid a few years ago. >> Yeah. >> And there are a lot of There are Exactly, but there's a lot of people on Reddit that even said, "I bought my house in 2023. I got this fantastic job offer. And I want to take it, but I can't because I owe more more on my house >> literally describing every client I buy sub two. >> And they would have been better off renting. >> Yeah. So, maybe they should keep buying so I can keep a pipeline of those deals coming. >> You mean renting. They should keep renting. >> should keep buying. >> All right, so let's just sum this up, okay? >> So, we we finish this cover. >> Uh who should buy and who should rent? >> Your audience should rent. Everybody else should buy. >> I think who should buy? If you find a place that you love, that you know with high conviction that you're going to be living there for 10 to 15 years, that you could comfortably afford it with maybe 20 to 25% of your gross income, and you get a competitive interest rate, then I think it's okay to buy a house now. But, I think if you're unsure of what your career is going to be doing, if you're not sure of the area you want to live in, I think for the next 5 years or so, it's probably better just to rent it out financially. >> Okay. I agree with you. >> it is an emotional decision, in which case you just love the house, and money's not a factor because you can't factor in like >> Yeah. >> love for something. >> Where you make babies. You can't factor that in. Yeah. >> I would agree with Grant. >> You could make babies in a rental, though. >> Yeah, but nobody wants to birth a baby in a rental. >> You could. You could rent out the rooms to different nurses. >> [laughter] >> Oh my gosh. Okay. >> That's true. How do you invest your money outside of real estate? >> Lending. >> So, you have a very interesting approach to investing. You you lend out your money. How do you lend it, and what returns do you get, and why is that >> Insane returns. >> How is that safe? >> It's not. Lending money in any capacity is not safe. I can create all the stipulations. I can have liens, personal guarantees. I can have cross-collateralization. I can have promissory I can have everything, and I can still lose money. So, lending is not for the faint of heart, for sure. >> So, what kind of returns do you get lending your money? >> Okay, so here's here's a good story for you. So, let's say that I get a good deal from a seller, and I don't want the seller to know that I'm going to wholesale that transaction for 100,000 bucks. What I will do is I will close on that first transaction with hard money and then the very next day sell it to my buyer so that my seller doesn't know I made a hundred grand and my buyer doesn't know I made a hundred grand. That's a double close. There's thousands of those happening in every single market every single month. So many of those transactions. >> don't you want your buyer to know you made a hundred grand? >> If If your buyer knows at the closing table and they're and they're looking at your settlement statement and they're like, "Are you kidding me? You're making a hundred I've done that." When somebody's wholesaling a deal to me, I'm like, "You're making 60 grand on this, bro?" Right? And then there's a feeling. And so people just want to avoid that whole conversation so they double close. So let's say that any What I tell people in my audience is if you're going to make 40,000 or 50,000 dollars on a wholesale deal, just double close. It costs you like four grand. So what I'll do is I'll wire a couple hundred thousand dollars out for 12 hours. It sits at title, comes back to me and I make four five thousand bucks. So I'll make 4% on my on my money in one day. So when you annualize that, you're looking at thousands of percentage. Now, I'm not turning that money every day. I'm turning that money a couple times a week if that makes sense. So the average amount of money that I'm making is stupid. The lending business is where I mean, everybody wants to be the bank. It's funny. I avoid banks when I buy, I become the bank when I lend. >> Have you ever had a sale not close once you funded the deal? >> No, because your buyer's money is already sitting at title. >> Mhm. >> So you've already got still transaction lined up before I wire my money for let's say my borrower wholesaler, I make sure that their buyer their money is already sitting at title and I then wire the money close the transaction and they replace my money. >> How do you find these deals? >> Instagram, Facebook groups. >> So you check your DMs, people DM you and they just send >> time. I get DMs from people probably 15, 20 people a day saying, "Hey, I need this thing funded." Also, I get a lot of Gram will know this really well from his real estate days. You'll get banks that will give people let's say 70% of their renovation or their purchase, but they need the 30% for the down payment. So I'll do gap lending a lot of times too. And so I go to hard money lenders I go with you ever have a borrower that doesn't have the down payment let me cover the down payment. So I'll do the gap and then I'll also do the renovation. So a borrower comes let's say a borrower comes to me and says Pace I want to buy this house right here but I don't have the full amount of money. The hard money lender is going to give me 70% I need the other 30% to close the transaction. I come with the 30%. And then I give them the renovation money so when they close they can start renovating. What I do is I take the ownership of this asset to protect myself. So I own the asset as I'm lending. So I'm not technically a lender. I'm actually the owner and I'm owning the property that I'm putting money into and if they default or they can't run the transaction I take the deal the deal back. I say put >> trust in you or you have this like a promissory note or some sort of contract. >> I'm the I'm the one that has to have the trust. I'm the one that put the 30% down. >> Yeah but you didn't borrow the 70% on hard money. >> Yeah but I brought 30% down and covered the construction costs. So what >> I would argue his just as risky. >> Yeah yeah yeah. Now am I going to lend on a deal that I don't want to take over? We call it loan to own. So if I if I am okay owning that property if they default I will loan on it. And so I'll do I do a lot of weird stuff. I have a Chipotle right now. Do you guys know who Cody Sperber is? >> Yeah. >> Oh wait actually yeah. >> Clever yeah. >> Yeah yeah. Clever investor. So um Cody Sperber his team just borrowed like $900,000 from my company. They bought an old Pizza Hut. They're gutting it turning it into a Chipotle. They've got the Chipotle lease lined up. Their team's going to make like three or four million bucks. My team's going to make 900 grand and they needed the gap money to finish that transaction. So I do big stuff too. >> Why would they need 900 grand? It seems like just a insurmountable or it just seems like an insignificant amount for like Cody Sperber. >> Because they're doing a lot of transactions. So they'll do like they'll buy a bank and convert it into something some like shopping center. They'll buy a thing and do it other things. So Cody's got a whole bunch of things going on. So he'll go hey I need a little a little here a little bit of money there and a little bit of money there cuz I've got so many things going on. >> stressful. That sounds like hell to me. >> This is like every real estate This is every real estate investor. >> Awful. What's the worst things have gone south for you? >> Okay, worst thing that has ever gone south for me happened a couple years ago where I bought a house from a a seller sub two. So, no money out of pocket and this sell This is cardinal sin of creative finance. You never let the seller that you just took their house over rent the property back from you. It's rule number one. Do not do that. Why? Because their payment's 2,000. I took over the $2,000 payment. In order for me to justify the profit, I have to rent it back to them at 2,500 bucks or more. So, this person goes, "I'm now not going to move out of this house." And they refused to move out. And it took me like a year and 2 months to get them out of the house. So, that sucked. So, cardinal rule I broke the cardinal rule. Why? Because I had the financial ability to stomach that. But, I tell people if you're going to buy a house from a seller or you're going to buy a house from sub two or seller finance, either way, never let the seller stay in the property. >> So, you flew here from Arizona. You're only here for 4 hours. Did you fly private? >> No, I very rarely fly private. >> At what net worth can you afford flying private? >> I could afford flying private now. Like I'll I will fly private when I can't get a flight. But, the problem Think about this. I'm flying to Montana a couple years ago. My buddy, Steve Harward, shout out Steve Harward, owns two jets and he buys both for the tax benefits. The problem is you got to have pilots, you got to have a hangar, you have a management company, you got all this crap and these planes like Ed Mylett has two planes. Why? Cuz one plane's working, the other one's in the shop. Like dude, that sounds stressful to me. And these are hemorrhaging depreciating assets. They're horrible. So, Steve um I go, "Hey man, I'm I'm trying to get to Montana. All my flights were canceled. Can you send your plane for me?" He goes, "No problem." Plane's there in 2 hours. Flies me 2 and 1/2 hours to Montana. I get the bill. It's like 37,000 bucks. I'm like, "Dude, I could have flown I I had first class tickets for five grand. It's irresponsible in my opinion to be flying around, even if I'm chartering, 30 grand, $40,000. It's irresponsible. I have team members that want raises, team members that want bonuses, team members that want to go to Hawaii. Why would I just throw it on an an airplane? No, I mean you could just loan lend out some some money on the on the private jet. >> man. >> Yeah, maybe. You look at like some of my favorite people you guys have had on the show. You got Have you guys done Dean Graziosi? >> No. >> Okay, phenomenal guest. If you guys want Dean Graziosi, he's got a private jet. You've got Ken McElroy that's got a private jet. What's Ken spending on a private jet you think on a monthly basis? >> Probably 300 grand. >> Yeah, about $300,000. And that's um obviously that includes the loan on the plane, but you've got to have three pilots, two that are flying it, one that's in rotation. You've got to have a a it's a nightmare. I don't want So, at what net worth should you buy a private jet? I don't I'd probably say $100 million if that's what you want to do. I'd say $100 million net worth is where you should probably buy a jet, but I still think it's a stupid decision at that level. So, at what point does it become a smart decision? >> Maybe 500 million where you're just like it's FU FU money type of stuff. I don't know. I think your time has to make more than what you spend per hour on the jet. >> I agree with that. >> hour on the jet is we'll call it 15 grand an hour, your time has to be worth more than 15 grand to justify that. >> Yeah, and like think about like I flew here on Southwest and I get stopped and the whole time I'm walking down the aisle, "Are you Pace Morby? Are you Pace Morby?" I'm like, "Yes, I'm Pace Morby." >> Is coffee hour? >> Yeah, yeah, you I go, "Why are you here? Are you here for What's the taco spot I love here? Tacos El Rodeo?" >> Yeah. >> I They go, "Are you going to go to Tacos El Rodeo?" I go, "Maybe, but I'm here to go to I Scott Oh, I love that show, it's the best." But I get stopped and I'm cool like getting stopped and I'm just a normal guy, I think. And you get stopped and that's the most inconvenient thing, but Southwest flies every 45 minutes. And it's like 500 bucks to sit in good seat and whatever else like I'm there and back, right? And so, if I'm trying to get to a podcast at 3:00 and I want to get back to home with my four kids, I never want to sleep, you know, away from anywhere else. Southwest solves that problem versus having a jet 40 grand there and back, it just doesn't financially make any sense. >> There is JSX. >> Yeah, but they're in infrequent, right? So, I couldn't get a jet the thing to land at a certain time and get home at a certain time. You've got to like balance all this kind of So, let's talk about tiers of wealth because you've escalated through the tiers of wealth pretty quickly, I'd like to think. I'm curious, what are the actual tiers of wealth with numbers? >> Okay, million dollars is nothing. Like it's just nothing. I think you guys already know that. Like it's surprisingly not a lot of money, especially you buy one property worth 1.3 million. You're like, "Wow, that's not a lot of money." 10 million dollars, I think you get to a point where you can basically live where you want, eat what you want, and kind of do what you want, and you could even put it into like, you know, ETFs and you could live on $500,000 a year. It's a pretty good number. I think um my family office tells me that their average high net worth individual that finally found a significant change in their life was at 35 million bucks. It brings in enough passive income that you can make You can say no more frequently, if that makes sense. >> So, you'd say that's probably FU money? >> I'd say 35 million is FU money. Like I don't care. People can think what they want of me. Nobody can take anything from me. I have a I have a financial team. I have a family office. I have um corporate structure that if somebody sued me, nobody could take my money. You know, the old adage of own nothing, control everything. That like you have a team that is highly intelligent at 35 million bucks. >> Is that liquid? Like liquid money in the market or is that like invested throughout real estate? >> It's invested. I don't think I don't my >> Just in assets. >> If I called any one of my friends, even like people that are billionaires that have been on your show that I'm friends with and I said, "Hey, I need 10 million bucks." They'd be like, "Give me 2 weeks." Right? Like none of them have any money tied like available. And most of them are probably using an S block in the first place. Like they're putting money into a Even I use S blocks. So, I'll put money into a brokerage account and then I'll borrow it on an S block at 4% and that's how I have liquid cash, but I don't ever have liquid cash. It's in even a brokerage. >> Are there any tiers after 35? >> Yeah, 100 million is like stupid, ridiculous money type of stuff. >> What changes? >> You can live where you want, eat what you want, travel where you want. You can have teams and assistants and people working at your house. It is literally there's nothing that is off limits. You can go to any event any event you want. You can send to somebody a text message and anybody's going to reply to you. You get your name gets thrown over around. Everybody wants to bring deal flow to you. Right? When you're at worth a million, nobody sends you sends you deal flow. When you're at 35 million, you get stuff here and there. You get hit up. I'm sure you guys get hit up all the time. When you get to like a hundred million, it is non-stop. You almost have to have a fit you have to have a family office protecting you from everybody on outside. And so for me all the all the time I'm telling people, "Yeah, I'd love to look at your deal. Send it over to Seth. Send it over to Ryan." And you have somebody who protects you from ever saying yes or no. How do you protect your assets? Um I have two family offices. So I have a company I use. I don't get paid to affiliate with them, but the name of the company is uh Do Wealth and I have another company called Wild West. So I have two family offices. One does more brokerage stuff and asset protection. One is more technical. So if I'm going to buy an asset, they underwrite the asset. They verify the asset. They do the background checks on the seller. So if I'm buying like an uh wedding venue, my family office will go and do all the underwriting for me before I even say yes or no. What do you pay them to do that? Oh, Seth Wild is 0.55% of my brokerage account. So very small. So let's say I've got 10 million dollars with them. I pay him like 50 grand a year to do all of that. That's crazy. Um Do Wealth is 11 grand a month flat fee. They don't make any money on anything they bring you. So they're 11,000 bucks a month. I don't I'm sure she wouldn't mind me saying this, but like what's really cool about my family office is it's a fractional family office, right? So you hire a family office like Do Wealth for example and they've got 200 other families that they manage money for. So let's say I have a really big deal I want to raise money for. Where do I go? I go to Do Wealth and I go, "Hey, you already know my net worth. You know I can cross collateralize this this deal I need to raise money for." So like Cody Sanchez comes to me and she goes, "Hey, you want to throw 500 grand in this deal with me?" I go, "Yeah." She had this really cool fund that popped off and I was like, "I'll jump in the next one." And I go, "But talk to my family office and see if they'll raise money for you, too." And I think they went and raised like $10 million for her. So, like having a family office is also a really great way to raise capital from other wealthy families because you basically have the social proof, you're in the circle, your money's being managed, they know who you are, they've seen all your corporate structure, they've done all your background checks, they've ran your family's insurance car Like I don't buy a car on my own anymore. I text Seth. "Hey Seth, will you talk to this person and get a car thing? Hey, I need a new um This person wants to do X, Y, and Z with me. Will you handle that?" I don't deal with any of that stuff. >> How rich do you have to be to have a family office? >> I think 10 million bucks. I think your net worth Like you could hire Due Wealth at 11 grand a month. It's like having a 17-person team for 11 grand a month. If you're worth If you're worth 10,000 or $10 million and you don't have a family office, I don't know what you're doing. Like you're managing everything yourself. >> Really? But that's still like I mean, that's not an insignificant. That's like a 1.2% of your >> Yeah, it's a it's $120,000 a year to have a whole 17-person team to run your all your money. >> high on 10 million. I don't know. I think it's maybe 25 to 30. >> it's low. Like just Ryan on my team is like an acquisition person. How much would I have to pay an acquisition person? >> Well, I guess for you it would be different because you're utilizing all these people. >> passive, then no. >> someone like me who's just like buying index funds and like buying a car every six years, it's like >> who would be worth it for you is Wild Wealth, w i l d e. I don't get paid. I'm just telling you legitimately who I use. Wild Wealth is going to charge you 0.55% of your brokerage account and it's going to be a lot more passive, but you go, "I need a new insurance policy." They'll get it for you. "I need a new Hey, I don't like this. Will you change this? Hey, I got into a car wreck. Will you handle it?" They will handle all of that and your brokerage account for 0.55%. It's stupidly >> thing I would just do it myself for that. >> Yeah, I don't have time for that, though. I don't have time for that. >> Just get my own insurance. >> I You and I are different, right? Like I'm I'm I don't know what I am, but you're like a Toyota Prius. You're steady, you're consistent, you're dedicated. I don't know what >> like a Bugatti Veyron. You You go really fast, but >> I'm probably I'm like a >> It's a crazy one, but but the oil changes are expensive. Is that what you drive on a daily basis? That's your >> I drive a Prius. I drove a Prius to the airport, and I drive a Raptor. I've got a big fan. I've got a F350. I've got a whole bunch of stuff. >> What do you spend like your money on? >> Um vacations with my family. So like I'll go to Disneyland and go, "Hey, we're doing the VIP experience." It cost like 15,000 bucks to like have somebody dedicated to walk you around through the lines and all that kind of stuff. >> What is something that you spend money on because you can, but it's never worth it? >> Watches. >> Watches are not worth it. So how much is that watch? >> This is probably a $100,000 watch. >> Did you sell it or >> What is it? It's a Patek. >> Can I see it? >> Yeah. >> Oh my gosh. >> Um this is my second Patek. This is the Patek I had to buy to buy the Patek I wanted. >> Really? >> Yeah, yeah. >> So what is What is this one? >> Uh that that one's a 5235R. So it's like a train station watch. So it's really hard to read it first because the minute hand looks like the hour and so like the owner and the founder of Patek has that in his office as his main clock. >> Why did you buy this one? >> Because they made me buy that to get the Nautilus that I wanted. >> Why not just buy the Nautilus second hand? Gray market. >> It was at a time where even the second hand market was like as expensive as just buying it direct from retail. Can you guys hear this? >> That's crazy. >> Yeah, it's a good watch. >> So I showed you the uh >> you have? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Uh but I had two of them. I had a real one and then I had the replica one. >> Yeah. >> And the replica one, I remember we held mine and yours side by side and it's crazy they they sound almost the same. >> Yeah, your replica one is really really good. You're I really love your other Patek. Did you sell it? >> I just sold it. >> For what? How much? >> 33 is how much I got for >> did you buy it for? >> 33. >> I That's what's called I guess these watches >> the buyer saw it from the podcast and reached out >> so cool. >> and said, "Hey, if you're selling, I'll buy it." >> You should have so Check this out. I would have sold it on seller finance for 50,000 bucks and I would have taken a thousand dollars a month for 50 months. >> I just I think about it, man. I don't want to be a house flipper. I just think about the car notes to people. >> yeah. Yeah, same thing. I would but I would have gotten 50,000. Here's what's cool. So >> I don't want to think about I can't imagine three years from now being like, "Yo, dude, that thousand dollars >> So I sold an F-150 like four years ago, okay? So this F-150 on Kelly Blue Book was worth 21,000. I sold it for 50 grand for 450 a month. I'm still collecting monthly payments. I take it from Cash App. He just Cash App's me every single month. And I put that into >> Cash App's Bitcoin? >> Every single month, dude. >> This guy cannot afford this truck, bro. >> He obviously can't. He's been paying me. >> Pateks and >> Yeah. >> Okay, so check this out. So you can see >> you can see every transaction I have in here is all from him. So I have I put 6,700 bucks of it into like Cash App's Bitcoin, but every single month. How do I go to my history here? I never even go in here. So every single month 450, 450, 450, 450, 450, all of these are my truck payments. >> And then what happens if he misses [clears throat] a payment? >> a tracker on the car and I take it back. >> You want to think about that though? >> I want to I just want to do fun things like I I think you're >> But why do you have to do that to do fun things? You could do fun things without doing that. >> someone that like looks at that cuz I'm sure you don't check the Cash App on the 14th of every month? Okay, you know It It sends me a message and I think it's funny. I screenshot and put it on my Instagram stories. But like I bought a deal here on Whispering Grove in 2019 from a seller named Xavier. And he similar situation, bought it on a VA loan. He had a 2.4% crazy low interest rate and he got deployed in the army. And he's like, "I can't keep this house. I don't want to be an investor." And I go, "I'll take the hands the car sorry, the house off your hands, but you got to pay me five grand to take it." And he goes, "Okay, well, I'll give you five grand, but who's paying closing costs?" I go, "You are." And he goes, "I don't have I don't have the money for closing costs and to pay you five grand." I go, "I'll cover the closing costs. You just pay me 250 a month to reimburse me." So he paid me five grand to take his house. I turned this into a co-living. I own it right down the road, and he pays me 250 bucks a month paying me back from all the or all the closing costs. You can do wild stuff with creative finance. It's wild. >> How do you remember all these people's names? >> Cuz I care. I I meet them all. I How many hours I spend with your seller, David? A couple hours, right? I remember their story. I remember what they do for a living. I remember everything. How can I This is why a lot of investors don't like real estate agents. It's because real estate agents block us from getting to know the seller. And if I don't know the seller, how can I provide a solution for them? And so, when I meet the seller, I'm like, "Oh, I get it. You have multiple kids. You're worried about this. All right, great. Let me move these pieces together, these ingredients, and create an offer for you that solves your problem." >> If we played a word association, what's the first word that comes to your mind when I say real estate agent? >> Lazy. I didn't say brokers. Brokers are very different. Brokers in commercial, like pick up their phone, they're intelligent, they're they're hard working. I'm sure even Graham remembers when he was doing retail listings, most of the agents don't pick up their phone. >> That's so funny. I had the opposite experience. The commercial real estate The you know, the commercial real estate agents would never pick up their phone. They only worked 9:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m., and you would always leave a message. They would never pick up. But the But the agents I would call would always pick up on like the second ring. Almost all of them. Or when I leave a message, >> This is all in California? >> This is all Los Angeles. >> know if it's just like unique to California. I don't do a lot of California deals, so brokers that are like if I go on craigslist.com, for example, and I call any listing on a Sunday at whatever time it is, 5:00, 6:00, 7:00, a broker is going to pick up the phone. If I call any listing that's been on the market retail-wise for 120 days, and I call the agent, they're not going to pick up the phone. In fact, I text them, it takes 3 days for them to reply back. So, real estate agents, I love working with them. Obviously, I got David with me, but I love working with them. I try to avoid them. >> What about for incomes then? What are the tiers to income? >> I I would say that the basic income level is $100,000 a year. Like that's basic. I don't know how people are surviving on on less than a hundred grand a year that have any quality of life. They're living in something small. They're They're like budgeting every food item. They're choosing not to drive. They're like looking at gas prices. That's probably under a hundred thousand bucks. I'd say over two hundred fifty thousand dollars you're not looking at gas prices anymore and you can go to like you can go out to eat twice a week. Um you go to a million dollars a year, you're not looking at flight prices. You're not looking at hotel prices. You're You're just going and doing the thing you want to do. And you make over five million dollars a year, you're not looking at anything. >> Except private jets, maybe. >> Yeah, I mean you I I've had years where I make more money than that. Like my net and I still look at private jet prices. I'm like that's the most irresponsible. It's like I'm putting money into a gas tank and it's just burning out the back. I Meanwhile, I could just jump on a commercial flight first class. And like when you fly enough like I do, you get these crazy benefits. Like I'm at American Airlines, I have concierge keys. Do you guys know what that is? They like pick you up from your house. They walk you to the terminal. They will pause the plane for you. Concierge key is better than private, in my opinion. I've flown private, I don't know, fifty times. Concierge key is as good as private. >> Is that the one that was like fifteen grand a year or it's like seven hundred a flight? >> No, it's invite-only. You don't even know how you get it. They send you a piece of a plane as like a placard and like when you're checking in and they see that you're concierge, they look up and they're you're concierge. Oh my gosh. They alert everybody. Costs no It costs no money. You just have to fly a lot. >> How do you get that? >> You have to fly like fifty times a year first class and then they'll invite you. >> Do you ever fly economy? >> Yeah, I flew Southwest here. Yeah. >> What's the strongest argument that critics get right about creative finance? >> It's dangerous. It's very dangerous. It's an overpowered strategy. So, like think about it. Anybody from your audience can go out right now and buy a piece of real estate with no money out of their pocket, no credit, no bank, no license, and also no experience. And they can take over an asset. Now, I tell people if you're brand new, just wholesale the deal to somebody who has experience, but if you don't have experience, you're taking on an asset you don't know how to manage. A lot of people get in trouble. I mean, just like traditional real estate, but even worse. Creative finance will amplify your ability to buy real estate at a 20x margin, and if you don't have the ability to handle that many assets, you can get you can burn a lot of people. >> What's the biggest loss that you've seen someone else take? >> Right. So, this one guy out of Tampa, I can't remember his name, but this guy bought in 90 days about 120 houses, no money out of pocket, and bought all these houses, couldn't manage them, and he was like, "Yeah, eff it. I have They're all non-recourse." It Creative finance is dangerous. Why is it dangerous? It's because it's so effective. >> So, he screwed the sellers. In the >> They screwed the sellers. He might even brought on private money lenders. He screwed on He screwed a lot of people, yeah. >> What happened What happened to the guy? >> Nothing. Like, nothing happened to him. I did I did a whole podcast about like how we should create legislation that changes the way that things work. Um I think wholesalers should be licensed. I think investors like me should have at least like We have to pay a yearly fee to some something that you know who I am. Who If I do something wrong, who do you tell? >> Probably the internet. I mean, it's just >> Nobody looks at that stuff anyway. Like, the comments and whatever else like 90% of comments nobody looks at anything. You guys do, but so like people could trash me, do whatever. I'm going to go and buy a piece of real estate tomorrow. Nobody's going to stop me. What will stop somebody is like agents if you go tell If I told your broker you did something wrong, I have somebody to complain to, then you have a governing body that I could remove your license, and you no longer can be an agent. In the investment world, what do we have? Literally zero regulation. It is the wild, wild west. I can do what I want, when I want, how I want. And so, creative finance can be very dangerous when you amplify I'm an investor, nobody's governing me other than like regular state laws. Um and then you amplify creative finance on that, it's like giving X-Men Like, who's the guy that shoots? Cyclops X-Men? It's It's giving a 2-year-old a Cyclops eyeballs. Like he's going to freaking laser a whole house down. >> So, I'm curious, if you had a million dollars liquid today, what would you do with it? >> Lend it. >> All of it? >> All of it. I'd lend all of it. >> You keep no money in reserves, just in case the lending didn't work out. >> The reserves are my talent and my skill level to go make more money. >> What would you say for the average person out there had a million dollars liquid? >> Put in an ETF and just keep working your job. >> All right, now we're going to be doing rapid-fire questions. >> last time? >> Probably. >> Okay. Appreciation or cash flow? >> Cash flow. >> Rent or buy? >> Buy. >> Subject to or seller finance? >> Both. >> Single family or multi-family? >> Single family. >> Airbnb or long-term rental? >> Ugh, those are both a god awful. Um regular rental. >> Stocks or Bitcoin? >> Bitcoin. >> Florida or Texas? >> Texas. >> Best market right now? >> Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas. >> Worst market right now? >> California, Seattle, Illinois, New York. >> Best strategy for beginners? >> Creative finance. >> Worst strategy for beginners? >> BRRRR strategy. >> Most overrated real estate advice? >> Do the BRRRR strategy, get two loans to buy one house when you're starting out and brand new. >> Most underrated real estate advice? Most underrated real estate advice? >> Get a partner on your first deal. >> Biggest red flag in a deal? >> Big red flag. I see somebody right now raising money that just lost somebody $40,000 and they're not telling some they're not telling their audience that they're raising money from that they ever lost money. So, I would ask everybody you've ever you're ever going to invest in, ask them, have you ever lost investors' money? >> Biggest green flag in a seller? >> Green Biggest green flag in a seller? Seller wants to retire, is willing to do no money down. >> What is the simplest path for an average person to build wealth? >> Buy a cash flowing business attached to real estate. So, laundromat, RV park, mobile home park, and manage it 15-20 hours a day and let the thing cash flow as you invest that money somewhere else. >> If you were to leave the viewer with one piece of advice, if they listen to this one piece of advice it will make a meaningful impact in the quality of their life, what is it? If you know that they'll listen to it. >> Creative Finance will allow you to buy your own personal home. It'll help you buy a business, and it will help you buy a cash flowing piece of real estate without a bank, without credit, and without any of your own money. You can go to websites like LoopNet, Crexi, or creativelisting.com, and you can find deals that are already ready to be sold, and you can buy a deal this week. >> Guys, join the early access to all >> [laughter] >> members. >> Guys, thanks for watching. >> Thank you channel members. >> Channel members, they get early access >> Till next time. >> a week ahead. You get the full podcast uncensored, as well as extra dollar.com. >> Extra dollar.com? What what's that? What's what is that? >> It's a credit card thing that Graham and I are starting where if you have >> Okay, how many credit cards do you have? >> One. >> You are not ours. >> No, it depends what card you have. What card do you have? >> I have had a black before. I Our company is just Okay, you can capitalize. I also have my team has in a couple of my companies we have like a Chase really fancy credit card. But like the credit card I walk around with >> Okay, do you use the Dell credit? >> I don't even know what that is. >> Exactly. So, there's $300 a year right now from this card that you're not getting a benefit from. In addition to probably all the other benefits this card offers. >> Okay, so here's how I use my MX. I spend a lot of money on it every month. Every expense goes through it, and then I just take my points and I buy Apple products with it. Am I missing points? >> Yes. Yeah, they're basically giving you free money on the card if you spend it in certain places. >> This sounds like Creative Finance. Sounds like a scam. >> I mean, you pay an annual fee for this card, right? >> Like 750? >> It's No, it's $900 a year. So, for a lot of credit cards with the annual fee comes actual bonuses. It's not even like discounts. It's just straight up credits where oh, you just have $20 a month to Uber that you get. You have $300 Yes, with that card. How do I get access to it? You just have to log in log in to the AMEX portal. Can I just log in to like xmoney.com or whatever it is? It's extra dollar. Extra dollar. That's the thing. So, a lot of people have multiple credit cards with different bonuses and these bonuses appear on different bonus schedules. So, some are bi-weekly, some are monthly, some are quarterly, some are semi-annually, some are annually for all these different websites. But, what we're creating is a dashboard where when is this available? Basically, consolidates all of your credit card information. And immediately links you to everything. Plus a bunch of other added benefits. be a free version and then an upgraded version where you'd be able to link Your audience doesn't need a free version. What's my cost? Like 29 bucks a month or something? No, wait. It's [clears throat] going to be way less than that. But, extradollar.com they can sign up right now to be on the wait list and then we'll give it to the people on the wait list first to try it out. you money. I know you're not using those credit card bonuses like you should be. Pace, thank you so much for coming on the Ice Coffee Hour. Guys, thank you so much for watching. If you want Pace to come back again, let us know down below in the comments. But, have me come back with a laptop and let's make calls together. Yes. Let's like do the actual business. You guys cool to do that for like an hour and a half? I'll be down. Okay. If you guys want to see that, make a comment down below and say bring Pace back. He's probably full of Show us with the laptop. Bring it right here. We'll do.