Why You Need People Who Won't Coddle You | Chris Colfer on Impact Theory

I'm in a weird place right now because I played a bullied kid on national television, you know, 20 million people a week watch me get pushed into lockers and and thrown on floors and you know, called [music] called called queer, called you know, all these negative things [music] and I experienced all that my myself in in in real life and I really like I I let people know that that was you know, one of the reasons why they are [music] maybe connecting to my performance so much was because it was coming from such a real place and I let people know that I was I was bullied horribly [music] when I when I was a kid. I was bullied so badly in middle school that my mom actually took me out of school and and start homeschooling me just to because because the harass the harassment got got [music] so severe. Um, but I'm at this weird place right now where I feel like I'm so not a victim anymore that that I kind of I don't know maybe that's my ego. I don't know. I think I think I get [music] I get tired of being associated with with someone who who is bullied because I I don't allow that to happen anymore [music] at all. I'm I'm proud of kind of where I'm at at now because because the minute I see someone who tries to take advantage [music] of me or or or or is isn't kind, I I I have the [music] the option to walk away now, which I didn't I didn't when I was a kid. [music] Hey everyone, welcome to Impact Theory. Today's guest is a multi-hyphenate creator best known for his star-making turn on the smash hit television series Glee. For 121 episodes across six seasons, he played Kurt Hummel, the openly gay teenager with the unbelievably beautiful voice. It ended up being the role of a lifetime, but the combination of having grown up in a very conservative family from a small town outside of Fresno, California, and getting cast fresh out of high school at the age of just 18, the idea of taking the role actually terrified him. But, take it he did, and millions of people tuned in every week to watch him and his fellow cast members perform. Along the way, he earned not only a massive following of ardent fans from all over the world, but he won a Golden Globe, a Screen Actors Guild Award, and three People's Choice Awards. But, being a world-famous actor with one of the most recognizable voices on the planet was not enough for him. And, since departing the show, he's not only continued his Hollywood career as a triple threat who can also write, direct, and produce, he's managed to turn himself into a number one New York Times best-selling author with 15 published books to his name. He's even working with 20th Century Fox and Disney to turn his first book in The Land of Stories series, The Wishing Spell, into a major motion picture, which he himself is slated to helm. All of this would be amazing and completely dazzle anybody at any age, but it becomes truly mind-boggling when you consider he hasn't even reached his 30th birthday yet. So, please, help me in welcoming the man Time magazine named as one of 2011's 100 most influential people, the incredibly talented Chris Colfer. Thank you so much. you doing tonight? Thank you. Welcome. Thank you, guys. [applause and cheering] Thank you. Can you just come with me everywhere and and repeat that? That was the plan. I thought if I write this well enough, you and I can go to comic cons together, which is exactly what I want to talk about. I think that you and I share maybe a vision on how story can be used to impact people. Certainly, hearing you talk a lot about, um, as a kid, sort of coming up with stories, and that being a big part of your formative years, is something I can very much relate with. What is it about storytelling and Comic-Con in particular that is interesting to you? Oh gosh, well I think it's all a matter of fantasy, isn't it? Um for for me I I I always loved um superhero uh novels and graphic novels and movies and I I loved uh uh stories about witches and wizards because in those worlds you get to be whatever you want to be. Um and uh I think sometimes there are so many limitations in reality that uh those kinds of stories can be very very encouraging. Um in a fantasy in in a comic book a mouse can can slay a dragon if it's courageous enough. Uh and that can be very very therapeutic for those of us who haven't quite slayed our dragons yet. Mm, that's really interesting. As a kid, when did you start to feel ostracized? I know that you talked about being bullied as a kid. When did that kind of stuff start? Oh gosh, at birth. I think [laughter] my my nuclear family was very small, but my extended family was very large and uh I was very much the runt of that family. So I was I always was kind of the person that got made fun of the most because I was the youngest. Uh so yeah, start started at home and then and then uh things just got worse when I when I went to school. I uh I was a very very eccentric kid. I do not know how my parents did it. I I I think of some of the things that I did and and said and I I I don't know how I was not how I was not killed. Um uh but yeah, and I I was I was very different. I um growing up my my dad was really funny and uh I remember trying so desperately to to be like him because I thought if I if I if I learned to make people laugh, I would be on their good side instantly. Um and I think I tried that a little too much. I I think I I think I alienated a lot of friendships when I was early on in in in like like elementary school because of that. Was it like an Andy Kaufman kind of humor approach or what was it about that that alienated people? there was a style to it. I think I just any any for me anything was fair game. I just wanted to make people laugh because to me if you can make people laugh, you you were their friend instantly. Um and then as I got older, I think I that interest sort of changed into storytelling because I I think as a young person, writing was the only way I could get anyone to listen to me and or or or to hear me out without someone wondering what was wrong with my with my voice. Um and so that became a very a very useful tool as I as I got older. So uh your voice then, which of course now you've become incredibly famous for and it becomes the thing that just singles you out so rapidly and you've such an amazing singing voice. But that was like a a a sore real sore spot for you growing up. Oh, it was it was what I was made fun of for the most growing up. It's actually gotten much deeper as as I've gotten older, believe it or not. But that was the quickest way someone could uh could insult me. And they did. I I grew up in a very very conservative town where, you know, being different was not accepted. It was it was you know, just just having a high-pitched voice was like you were you were you were the outcast just for that. So I remember people, even adults, even teachers would would would would give me these looks when they would when they'd hear me speak and and I I I was I was a very talented singer and I I could sing I could sing like song Defying Gravity like no one's business. I could I could sing all of the high parts in The Phantom of the Opera. But that meant I was useless to any choir director or any drama drama teacher. Interesting. So you weren't I always I guess sort of imagined that your real life was very Glee-esque in that you were singing all through middle school and high school. It it was. I I and I definitely did. I I I sang in the choir. I I I quit choir because I I got tired of standing. Um [laughter] I was in a lot of school plays. I I was never I was never the lead role or or or anything. I I was always I always had had small roles in the in the background. Um, but um, yeah, I know. I mean, it was it's interesting. I I think um, I think uh, I hope I hope I hope I'm not patting myself on the back. I think I played that character in Glee very, very well, and and people uh, really do think I was playing myself. And and and and although we were experiencing um, very, very similar things, um, uh, I was very I was very different from that character. Um, I'm much more cynical than that character. [laughter] That's interesting. In fact, so I'm glad you brought that up. I heard you in an interview, somebody asked you if you were a character from Game of Thrones, who would you be? And you said, "I want to say that I would be the mother of dragons, but I think I'm actually Cersei." Yeah. What did you mean by that? I I'm sorry. I just She's a woman who knows what she wants, and and she goes out and she gets it. I mean, she you know, her methods and her her strategies a little questionable, you know, but uh, I think that's fair to say. But I just I know I I I love anyone with the with the with the drive. And um, I remember when I was in senior year of my high school, uh, I was chosen uh, to put on my own show. It's called the senior show. Um, and every year one senior in the in the drama class got selected to to basically put on whatever they wanted. And and uh, usually they uh, they would do like SNL type, you know, variety sketch kind of kind of shows. Um, but I was like, "Nope, I'm writing a musical." And uh, I gender reversed uh, Sweeney Todd, uh, and called it Shirley Todd, um, uh, so I could be so I could be Mrs. Lovett. So I was Mr. Lovett. Um, and uh, because we were all seniors, no one wanted to do it. Uh, I end up I end up blackmailing all of them to to to be in it. Um, and uh, it was a great show. Walk me through how that drive and ambition has manifested in your life. Um, is that something you value in yourself? Is it something that you're skeptical of in yourself? Cuz you When you answer that question, then I fully understand that it was a little tongue-in-cheek. But when you say that I am, you know, I fear that I'm actually Cersei, Um, is there part of you that is very cognizant that there is a line that you can cross with drive and ambition or Oh, I think so. I think I've never quite gotten to the point where I was so ambitious where I was I was causing harm, but I I think I think ambition is is uh so much of who I am. Uh maybe to a fault, but never never to to the point where I where I feel like I'm I'm harming anyone or or or or anything. Um I think growing up ambition and hopes and goals and dreams, that that was literally all I had. My my family didn't have much money and and I didn't I I wasn't good-looking and and I wasn't athletic. Um I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I In that I can be somewhere else one day, I can be bigger than this, I can go places. Was that the sort of savior mechanism? I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I Give me some examples. Who were people Oh gosh, Harry Potter, I guess. That's a good one. Um What is it you like about Harry Potter? Oh [sighs] god, what Oh my god, it's like Harry Potter is like my religion growing up. So it's a hard hard to hard to answer. Um I don't know if it was actually him because I When I was reading Harry Potter, he he wasn't even he wasn't my favorite character by by a long shot. He I I loved Ron, Hermione, and Professor McGonagall. Those are the characters that I loved, but I think I think Harry Potter just in general was um when I was a kid I that was just the first time I ever remember enjoying reading. I had dyslexia. I was not a good reader. I I needed reading glasses to read and I didn't find that out much later in life. So reading physically hurt me and it wasn't until I was in junior high school when I I told the teacher that and they said well you really should get your eyes checked and I did and lo and behold I was I was far sided. So Harry Potter was was was a huge introduction to literature for me and it inspired me to to be a storyteller myself. So I think it's interesting that you didn't find Harry Potter to be the most compelling character. I find that a lot. I even find that sometimes when I'm writing that making the main character the most interesting the most intriguing when they have so much sort of heavy lifting to do can sometimes be difficult where is you can make a side character be a little more flippant. They can be a bigger personality and very specific flavor if you will. What was it about Iran or Hermione or a Professor McGonagall that actually really drew you in and how were you using what you were reading as a way to deal with what you were going through and so the let that hang in the air for a minute because one thing that I heard you say which I think is really interesting is I was bullied pretty relentlessly but it is not a daily thing for me and that if people didn't ask me about it in interviews I wouldn't even think about it. That is so extraordinary that you've been able to get out of that. So part of what I want to package up for the listener at home right now is like how do they take anything it doesn't even have to be a fictional story but what were those things that you got from those characters even if it was just escapism and then you were you leveraged that breathing room to center yourself or whatever it was but how did you use that to not be diminished by the bullying? Hmm, [snorts] was yeah well, think it's it's it's all about vulnerability. To to tie those two questions together, I think one of the reasons why audiences respond to secondary characters rather than the lead character is because the lead character usually, if it's written really well, you know, shows its heart their heart on their sleeve. And you relate to them with vulnerability with with you know, with their fear and and with their with their desires where the other characters you're not quite as connected to them so they can just be um they they they are pure escapism. They they are they are they are the people that you want to be because because you're not quite as familiar with with with their with their challenges as you are the main character. Um but yeah, and and to and to and to go back to what you said about bullying is I'm in a weird place right now because I played a bullied kid on national television, you know, 20 million people a week watch me get pushed into lockers and and thrown on floors and you know, called called called queer, called you know, all these negative things. Um and I experienced all that my myself in in in real life. And I really like I I let people know that that was, you know, one of the reasons why they are maybe connecting to my performance so much was because it was coming from such a real place. And I let people know that I was I was bullied horribly when I when I was a kid. I was bullied so badly in middle school that my mom actually took me out of school and and started homeschooling me just to because because the harass the harassment got got so severe. Um but I'm at a this weird place right now where I feel like I'm so not a victim anymore that that I kind of I don't know, maybe that's my ego. I don't know. I think I think I get I get tired of being associated with with someone who who is bullied because I I don't allow that to happen anymore at all. I'm I'm proud of kind of where I'm at at now because because the minute I see someone who tries to take advantage of me or or or is isn't kind, I I I have the the option to walk away now which I didn't I I when I was a kid. But I feel like I have to at a certain point I have to stop talking about it because I've told so many million I've told millions and millions of kids around the world that that is something you get to leave behind. Um, but because because of my circumstances I I don't get to leave it behind because I'm always asked about about about it. And it's a good thing to talk about because because it's still it's still going on, but um, at a certain point I feel like I'm doing I'm doing the kids who look up to me a disservice when when when I when I keep talking about it because it does maybe for them does seem like it doesn't it doesn't leave me. Does that make sense? It does, definitely. If these were going to be the last words that you ever spoke on the subject of healing from being bullied, what would you want people to understand? Like what was your process to close that chapter, to feel good about yourself, and I'm definitely putting words in your mouth, but to be reborn in some way where that is is not who you are anymore? Well, I think it's it's it's really just knowing that that you you get to move on from it. That that that's the thing is is you you look adolescence is the toughest time in your life, I think, because you are you have you have no freedom, but you have all the responsibility. You are expected to make adult decisions, but you don't get the benefits of of of of being adult, and you are literally trapped in in an environment high school, unless you're home schooled, where you are around you have no control over who you're around, and and um, the probably the one of the most the lesson or the the bridge that I've crossed in my life that has given me the most relief is knowing that I I don't have to be in any environment that I that I do not want to be in. Um, and I I think that would that would that would be the message that I'd give the kids uh, who are being bullied, but also also look, the world is is is is full of Like like they bullies bullies they they they they do go away to a certain point, but there will always be people in your life that that uh, you don't you don't like that that are that are mean that are that are rude, and and um, I think sometimes when you when you when you do go through a period of harassment, especially when you're young, you do learn how to how to overcome that and how to um maybe not have maybe not have peace with um maybe have some inner peace. Uh it's not really outer peace cuz you can never really control control the world around you, but but you you do you do you do learn a lot. You learn a lot of good communication skills, I think. How do you think about identity creation? So, um I think a lot about the notion of really deciding what story you're going to tell yourself about who you are. And that in that story, whatever you're repeating to yourself is going to become your reality because you're going to see that over and over and over. Um was is that a tool that you use? Like I know that people originally it was hard for you to convince them that you could write. So, they were like, "Well, you're obviously very talented actor, you're very talented singer, but can you really write?" So, did how in in when people are telling you that you're not good enough, which is crazy to think there was ever a time where people thought that about your voice, but if people were telling you about you that about your voice, you obviously overcame that. And then they're telling you that about your writing, but you overcome that. So, how do you leverage or maybe it's not narrative or self-narrative, maybe it's something else, but how do you get the courage to do things that people are telling you you can't do? That's such a such a good question. Um You know, what's so interesting is is I have been told I I I can't do something my entire life. It's It's almost now it's like a right of passage for me. When when someone tells me I can't do something, I I go, "Okay, there's there's proof that I that I can do it." But it was never it was never about my ability um if I recall. It was It was It was always about basically the world's just not ready for you yet. Um you know, I was told the world's not ready for someone like you to start singing. You know, you sound like a girl, no one wants to buy an album from a from a guy who sounds like a girl. The world's not ready. The world's not ready to see you as an actor. No one's going to go want to go to a movie theater to to see someone like you act uh or see someone like you on on TV. Uh, uh People actually say this to your face? to my face. Oh, yeah, I know, it's crazy. It's crazy. It it it And I mean now now hindsight's always always it's always a gift, but but yeah, no, I I can't believe these people I've never felt the need in my entire life to tell someone they couldn't do something. Sometimes I tell them, "Well, that's going to be a challenge, and you got you got to be ready for this, this, and that." But but I've never ever had the need or the desire to to nip someone's dream in the in the bud. What's your initial emotional reaction when somebody says that? That I can't do something? Yeah. Oh, it's it's I'm kind of numb to it now because because I I um Well, and I have to be honest, like like one of the reasons why I've accomplished so many things is because I've been very lucky. I've I've had um I've had many opportunities that that were just I just happened to be in the right place at the right time. Um uh I did have to that? Um yes, I do, but I do also believe that I had to build on that. I I had to I had to create this the steps that I took. I had to form my own ladder from you know, I had to use that as as as a as a stepping stone. Um and uh that that I that I think I I can take credit for as as using one experience uh my my glee experience, using that to to go into so many different um ventures was was because I I I luckily uh have I've always been I you know, the story of the grasshopper and the ant, I've always been the ant. So, uh I'm I'm very proud of myself for for creating those opportunities. Uh I've always been I'm always been one to work hard uh even even when uh when a reward or or or luck comes my way, I've always been one to try to turn that blessing into a blueprint. That That's a really interesting take on you, and as much as I researched you before you coming on, there's a nuance in here that I didn't pick up, which I really uh I'm super excited by in your story, so nervous? No, no, no, for people that don't know the like the details of the grasshopper and the ants, a great little parable about this grasshopper who's playing around and like, "Oh, there's plenty of time. It's summer. Everything's abundant. It's all good." And he's playing the fiddle or something if I remember right. And all the ants are like preparing, preparing, preparing and they're like socking food away and carrying it back and they're just working like dogs through the whole summer. And they keep telling him like, "Hey, it isn't going to be like this forever. So, you better get ready." is coming. Right. And so, becomes like that ultimate parable about make hay while the sun is shining, right? The time where you think it's party time's actually the time to buckle down and do the work. And dude, writing your intro I was like, "What the fuck?" Like the number of things that you've done is 15 books? It's amazing. It's wonderful, man. And like hearing you, one thing people will not appreciate unless they actually go watch the videos, you get heckled in the most beautiful way whenever you go to speak. Like the audience I've never seen audiences that like reactive to almost every word out of your mouth elicits like this audible reaction from people in the audience. You've obviously touched them with your writing. You've obviously touched them with your music and your acting. But it's really interesting. So, the the drive, the being the ant, I think is is super super interesting. So, when did you realize you're the ant? When did that crystallize as a value for you? And why do you think that's important if you think it's important for other people? Well, gosh, I think it it crystallized for me um in uh the midst of glee um because I was finally in in in a position that I had been told my entire life. I I was someone like me would never be in this position. And the minute that I had that position um and and people found out that I was uh a gay actor playing a gay character. Um I had an an avalanche of doubt, not not my own, but from other people saying, "Well, you know, this is I think one of the first one of the first critiques I that was ever written about me was um you know he's great on the show it's a shame that he'll never do anything else again. Just because based on other careers and and other other actors that had that had come and I think that really put a fear in me that they were correct and I I was so honorary at the time being a young person I was like no I I'm not going to I'm not going to go gently into that night you know I'm I'm going to do whatever I can to make sure that I that I um always have always have a place at the table and so yeah I guess I guess my a lot of my drive used to come from from proving people wrong and now I think it it it it does come from uh wanting just to make the world a easier place for for for someone like me. I think that is that is what I'm driven by now. Um what was the what was the second part of your question? Well even more interesting you just said something that I really want you to invite people into understand cuz I think it's incredibly powerful. I get that you you don't do it anymore or maybe not as much. Take us back to you're young you're being you know hounded by people intentionally or otherwise where they're telling you you're not going to be able to do it. At one point I know you're getting death threats. So how do you use the chip on your shoulder to prove people wrong which I'll call sort of a dark energy. How do you use that to create something so incredible? I had had a bucket list from the time that I was five and that I think that truly is the the the greatest blessing I think I have ever received in my life is just having a list of things I wanted to do to keep me motivated and I don't know where it came from I don't know how I developed it so young but I from my earliest memory I I knew that I wanted to act and I knew that I wanted to write and and then it was it was it was it made life a lot easier I guess because I guess I just I knew what I I knew what I what I wanted to do and um I was very lucky because I had a grandmother who just believed in me to a fault. Like she would tell me you're here you're here to do this. It's going to happen. It's going to happen. And even when I would get Was she talking about the writing or the acting? Both. Both. She really made me think that anything that I wanted to accomplish could happen. Um and uh I've said this before but I but I think that is the greatest gift you can give a child even if even if you don't think that that it that it is possible. And many years later my grandmother told me uh told me I I I can't believe you got it all done. Like I didn't I like I was encouraging but I never thought you would actually get it all done but you did. And and I'm like well well thanks. I think it was it was a it was the delusion that that you installed in me that that made it all work for me. You've said that your grandmother was your first and toughest editor which I think is amazing. Do you think that like I'll I'll ask a two-part question. Part number one are you actually glad when she didn't think your story was good enough that she would crumple it up, throw it away, and so you can do better? Are you actually glad that happened cuz it had to be kind of hard. Yeah. So that's part one. And then part two of the question, would you do the same if you had kids? Oh my god. Oh. Well, I think the first part is uh yes, I I I now I am I am glad that uh my grandmother did that. Uh because it actually made you better? Uh I think it did. Yeah, I think I think it did. And I I think um it it also I don't know. It's so weird and I've never put this I've never put this two and two together but I think that experience actually uh made me seek people who are seek honesty um in my career rather than just someone who's going to tell me everything that I want to hear. Um because I know I know the honesty is what is is what gets you from A to B. Uh the coddling doesn't. Um so yeah, I think I am glad that she that that she did that um as traumatic as it was uh in in the time. Um and I uh I would say no, I don't think I I I don't think I could ever do that to to a kid and that's that's uh that's one of the reasons why I on in all honesty don't want to have kids is because I don't think I could I could I could uh I would be such a coddler. I would coddle them to death. They would be useless to the world. [laughter] So, yeah, so yes and no to these questions. That is exactly how I feel about having kids. Like I I know it's the right answer. Even in my own life, it's been the things that were super hard that actually like I have been in There have been times in my business career where I've been involved with people that I would just call straight abusive. Yeah, oh yeah. Oh yeah. And so it's like okay. This is actually making me better. It's horrible and I do not like it. But the gyrations it makes me go through mentally toughening up, getting more strategic, having to sharpen my skill set. All of those things have made me better. But yet now as an employer or if I were to have kids, I wouldn't do that to somebody else. Even though I know that for some subset of the people, it is the right answer. Right. Right. Like I don't think you get somebody great that doesn't go through the hardship. But my problem is hardship destroys so many of the people that it touches. Yeah. So I'm always so interested to meet people like you that like on the other side of it, they're they're so empowered. Yeah. Yeah, some people one critique will just will kill their creativity. Will kill it for for for forever. Um and it's another reason why I'm I'm glad my grandmother was was harsh with me when I was younger because I think I'm um I'm I can deal with criticism a little bit better uh because because I I had it when I was when I was very young. Um but you know, I'm the same way with with business it's interesting cuz you can always you can always hire a bad cop. You can be the good cop and you guys have you guys work with a bad cop who's going to who's going to do that for for people. Um but with when it comes to when it comes to families, I feel like it's a whole different thing. That's that's you you know, you need both parents to be everything all at once and I would be the exact kind of parent I I I would I would not give my kids any freedom. I'd would put trackers on them. I would I would just I would be the worst. I'd make I'd make I'd make Joan Crawford look like Carol Brady. I I would be terrible. That's amazing. That's at least you're very self-aware, so that's good. Um I want to go back to drive and ambition. So, you've accomplished a lot and obviously it'd be very easy for somebody that has your kind of resume this young to just sort of tap out and coast on that for a while um and then end up behind the eight ball because they don't have any career momentum. How do you stay hungry? Oh god. Um it it is tough. It is because because sometimes it's you know espe- especially in the entertainment industry. The entertainment industry has a way of building up and knocking it down and building it back up. It's it's such a roller coaster of of emotions and and it's it's it's it's a business that is based on on uh on creativity and opinion. So, naturally that's a it's a tough environment to to to be in. Um I I I know because I cuz I do go through these periods where I think I'm done. I I I th- th- this fight is too hard. Uh a few a few years ago we we started shopping around uh the Land Stories adaptation to to studios and I was very very adamant that I uh I I wanted to to to direct this. I I I had written I had screenwritten in the past and and worked with some great directors and I had screenwritten in the past and worked with directors that I that I felt did not capture what I what I was going for at all. And that is such a miserable place to be in. To to see something you've created uh you know being driven in the in a wrong direction. It's It's like watching someone else parent your children. I I I can imagine. I I can only imagine. Um and so I was very adamant that no, if this is if this is going to come to life, I want to be the person to bring it to life and I want to validate all those images that that that that the readers and I have created together. Um and um there was a period when we we went to so many different studios and every because it had done well, every studio wanted it. They just didn't want to to give me the the the creative the creativity in the the control over it cuz I hadn't done it before. Um and at a at a certain point I I I it was right when I'd come to terms with okay, you know what? This is this is not going to turn into a movie. I I I could not live with this being a bad movie. And I I unfortunately just I don't trust someone else to to make it a good movie. So, I'm just going to come to terms with this not being a movie. And of course that was when the phone rang with literally the next day. Um and uh 20th 20th Century Fox uh uh uh gave me that opportunity. Um so, but there are moments like that where I I I do I have many moments where I just want to give up. But I think you have to go through those moments. I think you have to go through those moments where you where you want to give up. Um I think that's part of the process. Tell me more. Why? I don't know. I would love to tell you more, but but I'm not sure I know. [laughter] I I said that. I think I think that was right what I said. Um I know I think that especially when you're when when you're in a creative position, I I think the the depths are are just as important as as the highs. I I I think that that just it just broadens your your spectrum as as as a creator. And um you know, I I I I think it's it's those moments of despair I think that really made me a better writer because now I can write characters that that are in despair. And people who are reading it who are actually in despair relate to it and and and and helps them. Um so, yeah, I I think it's uh life, eh? [laughter] [snorts] Yeah, I have a theory about what it is that makes that worthwhile. So, the human mind is is So, Nassim Taleb has this idea of becoming antifragile. And the best example of a system that's antifragile is the immune system. So, something that is weak obviously breaks easily. Something that is tough or resilient, uh it can take a real beating and it will last a long time before it breaks, but it's ultimately still defined by its breaking point. Something that's antifragile actually gets stronger the more that it's assailed. So, the human immune system is that, right? So, when you're born, it's like everything makes you sick and blah blah blah. But, every time you get sick, your immune system learns about that invader, and so the next time it can thwart that invader, and that's how you get sick a lot less as you get older. So, that's an example of a system that by attacking it, you're actually making it more powerful. So, I think the human psyche when done in sort of careful conditions, is the same. Now, you can break it, just like you can get so sick you die. But, if you are hit with these like um stressors, and there's a whole name for it, the the um hormesis. So, you get this hormetic response, right? Something is bad, but not so bad that it kills you, so it actually makes you better, right? So, if it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger, but this is like really on a biological level. So, when you're going through this despair, the bad news is that maybe something like eight out of the 10 writers that encounter that, it kills them forever, and they never go back to it. But, the two, like you, that make it and they push through, they become a better writer, or they're more relatable, but they're also more resilient, and they will have learned a trick, a path. So, one thing I think that's so critically important is when you hit a hardship and you overcome it, what you just learned, your nervous system learns at a deep limbic level, is that there was a path here, even though I couldn't see it in the beginning. And so, the next time you hit an obstacle, like the next time you want to do a project, and they're like, "No, no, no, no, no, no." You're like, "Yeah, yeah, I've been through this routine before, and if I really believe it, and I stay true to it, eventually, like people are going to break." And I think that is it's a dangerous game, and it really is something that um I often liken it to the inner cities. The inner cities destroy most of the people that they touch, but the occasional Jay-Z comes out, and they're just unstoppable. It's unfortunate for some people what, you know, it you you want to apply that that phrase, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" to to to the mental side of things, too, but sometimes what doesn't kill you makes you suicidal. Um and it's really up to you to Well, is am I going to let this kill me or am I going to let this motivate me? And um and I I sometimes when I hear people say this, I want to throw things at them. So, I'm going to say it I'm going to say it uh with with very tongue in cheek, but sometimes it really is it's it's a choice. Um It's not a choice I don't know. Sometimes I don't think your your Sometimes I I don't think your your your point of view or your your your um interpretation of something you're going through can be a choice. Sometimes things are just so tragic that that um you you you just have to feel whatever you're feeling so it so it can work out work itself out. Talk to me about your going into YA novels. So, I know that you go there cuz you've said that that's it was so impactful for you growing up and it's the space that you love to be in. Is there anything that you're any kind of relationship you're trying to forge with your reader? Is there anything that you want them to get out of it? Is it pure escapism? Like, how do you approach it as a writer? It really I think it really is just escapism for for me. That was what I enjoyed reading the most when I was a kid. Um and it's it's kind of like where where I'm how I'm wired. I'm I'm kind of wired to live part-time in reality, part-time in a in a fantasy world. Um uh and I I think when I was a kid fan like things I said earlier, the fantasy really impact me more than any other genre that I that I had read. Um and I I think stimulating imagination is one of the greatest things one of our best lines of defense that we can that we can give to the next generation coming. Um because I think that's where you know, if if you inspire people to be more compassionate and more curious, then I I think the world is is is on the right track. How do you do that? How do you inspire that curiosity? Oh, gosh. I don't know. I don't [laughter] know. I I I don't know. I I I try to write the kind of books that I would like to read as as as young person. I always joke that I used to write my reading level and it works out. Um I don't know. I I I think I think I think I I think I think about the books that I read as a kid not just the Harry Potter series but every book by Bruce Coville and every book by Eva Ibbotson and and and just like that that like like like that um prelude to to to a book. That that is like that's where I I think my soul lives is my favorite part about writing the book is is right before I actually sit down and start writing and I'm just daydreaming about it and I and I'm curious about oh what what what is this world where is this world going to take me? Who am I going to meet? What am I going to learn? What kind of fun am I going to have? What's the end result going to be? And I think every kid every time they they pick up a book and they read the first chapter that's kind of where they're at and I think if more people lived there we would I think the world would be a much better place. Like I said I I think imagination is the greatest tool in the whole world. What is it about imagination? Are you using that in a Einstein way of imagining a path forward or is it just the relief from your day-to-day life where you can escape into a fantasy land? What do you mean by imagination? I think I think for me imagination is is is uh uh what you can create nothing and make something from nothing is what is is what you know nothing plus imagination equals something. Um and that's also the the same definition of magic that I use in in my books. So I think imagination is is the most magical thing we have in the real world. There's a notion in your books of portals of being sucked into the story world. Mhm. That made me feel like I might be getting an insight into you as a person. What is it about the notion of portals that was so enticing that you base so much of your story around that. Oh, probably cuz I just I hate reality so much. [laughter] God, I mean I I think I just I would if I had the the choice of of visiting Wonderland or Neverland or Hogwarts or Narnia, I wouldn't in a heartbeat. Like like there it would be there would be no question in my mind. Um uh Yeah, how funny. It's like a therapy session. Um [laughter] thanks. I don't have to go to this week. Thank you. Appreciate it. Um but [snorts] uh no, I think I think it's just I think it's just escaping it. I think it's going someplace where where you you can you can be appreciated. You can you can be loved and and um and you you can have adventures and and fun that you you just maybe aren't available available to you just yet um in in whatever your situation is. Yeah. So, as you progress, obviously there are a lot of doors and things open to you. If you could only ever write or sing, but not both. So, if you write, you can never sing again. If you sing, you can never write again. Which which path would you choose? Oh, write. That's so that's so easy. That's I mean I can I can write in my pajamas. That's, you know, I I I Singing has always terrified me, strangely enough. Interesting. Yeah, I um The performance element or element, absolutely. Yeah, um uh yeah, I I've always had horrible stage fright, even when I was a kid and I used to just sing at um in choir at my you know, my grandma's church or or something. Um uh yeah, and I I remember we did we did a this huge glee tour. We did I think like 70 performances in in a 2-month span and we did like I it was it was insane and and I sang I sang live every single uh performance cuz I was trying to get that fear out of my system and uh it didn't work. It didn't work. I was I was just as terrified on the last night as I was the first night. Interesting. know. Um I don't think about it very much um cuz cuz I just don't really think of it as a as a possibility. I don't know why I don't. Um, I I you know I I I I've always wanted to maybe do um, like a maybe a cover album that that that has some kind of charity aspect to it where I you know I cover some songs and the money goes to you know the the LGBT center in LA or or the Trevor Project or or um, Make-A-Wish or something. Um, I would love to do that. Um, but um, it's it's it's that's a it's a tough thing to accomplish in the the music industry. So interesting. When was the first time that somebody told you that your voice was just extraordinary? Extraordinary? Extraordinary. They cannot fathom. I I think this right now. Are you serious? Yeah, thanks. The first time I heard you sing I was like, what? Yeah, thank you. Um, uh, I mean you know people have been very kind over the years sending me letters and and tweets and and and and whatnot. Um, I don't know. This is this is very this is very deep. This is we we we we scratched the surface of something here, yeah. That's super. But it's so interesting because like I said I I I have I have been I've been told my my whole life that I couldn't do other things like writing and and and acting and and not and and for whatever reason I always had a a deaf ear to to those things. But I for whatever reason I I I accepted that the the critiques of of of this of the singing. I am literally beside myself with shock. So, there are two gifts that I It's interesting that I call them gifts. Talk about therapy. Um, there are two talents that I have hang-ups about because I want them so desperately, do not have them, and as much work as I've done around getting rid of a fixed mindset, these are the two things that I think if you really wanted that bad, like why don't you put in any energy? And the truthful answer is because I don't think that I would get good. Mhm. Um, I would get better. I recognize that, but I don't think I would ever get good, and that's singing and drawing. Mhm. And I remember before [clears throat] I met my wife, I said, I can describe who she is, and she will either be able to sing or draw. And of course my wife can draw. World class artist. Absolutely ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah, like that I so love that skill set. So, hearing you [snorts] sing and thinking okay, wait a second. Like A, you're on a show. You win a Golden Globe. You win a bunch of other awards. Like Arden fan base. It's It is so [snorts] fascinating a glimpse into the human condition to think that that's an area that you're still like, "Yeah, I'm not sure if I could do it." Yeah, it's funny. I used to say I think I'm the only person in the world who doesn't consider myself a singer. Like when I'm introduced places and people say, "Oh, well please welcome to say singer Chris Colfer." I'm always like, "What? All right. All right. Cool. I'll be I'll take it. I'll take it. But yeah, it's so yeah, it's it's really it's interesting. I should I should yeah. Huh. Well, maybe maybe maybe this this interview will change that. Maybe I'll get an offer. Yeah, dude. I mean that's super super intriguing. My my wheels are spinning. Um where can people find out more about you? Oh gosh. Um America's Most Wanted. Oh, no. Nice. [laughter] Let's see. The landofstories.com is a good place. Ataleofmagic.com is a good place. And yeah, then I I guess just hit me up on social media. Yeah, and and interviews like this. Perfect. Before I ask my last question, I actually want to sneak in a little bonus here. What do you What is the trait that you have that's made you so successful? You know, the first word that came to mind was was delusion. I'll take it. I think yeah. I think it's delusion. I I think like I said earlier, I think I I owe that to my grandmother. She she truly made me believe that every single one of my goals every single one of my goals was was was possible. And I believed her and and because she gave that to me as a kid, I think I I I That's really what That was the secret ingredient to my success. I'm good with that. Yeah. All right. What's the impact that you want to have on the world? Oh my gosh. Um I I think I just want I I want to make uh the real world reality uh just a little bit more bearable for for for people. Um and I I want to bring a little a little magic to to uh to people's lives. It's a great answer. Yeah. Guys, there are a few people that I think have the breadth of creativity that he has. He's really doing extraordinary things. So, if you only know him from TV or you only know the books, to really look at his life across all the things that he's doing and hopefully we will very shortly see the results of him as a producer and director uh and screenwriter of his own translated work. That'd be pretty extraordinary. So, I highly encourage you to give him a follow. Uh check out his book series. Uh it's all very very impressive. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Chris, that was amazing, dude. Thank you, man. Scott, but what is it within my power? It's [music] whether it's getting the proper sleep, whether it's learning your lines, whether it's researching the character, whether it's watching movies for reference, whether it's picking up a subject matter as a person to [music] study, or working out, or eating healthy, or