Video summary
Louise Perry challenges the modern narrative that women cannot find "good men" anymore, arguing instead that this perception stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of historical relationship dynamics and mating ideologies. She posits that the idea of approaching strangers in bars as the primary method for forming relationships was never historically accurate; rather, most cultures traditionally relied on semi-arranged introductions through family or community where economic stability took precedence over emotional intimacy. Perry suggests that contemporary society has swung too far toward a "confluent" ideology, popularized by figures like Mia Khalifa and influenced by the sexual revolution, which demands spouses act as best friends who facilitate personal growth. This clashes with an ancestral predisposition for serial monogamy or polygyny based on practical economic partnerships, creating a conceptual inertia where modern expectations of perfect compatibility set couples up for failure before they even begin. The podcast delves into the psychological mechanics behind dating failures, specifically addressing male approach anxiety and female receptivity in a post-#MeToo world. Perry introduces research by Mads Lasson regarding mating arrangements and highlights how women are now cultivating less overt signals of interest due to safety concerns, which men misinterpret as disinterest because they lack emotional intelligence (EQ). She references David Buss's work on the male over-perception bias versus female under-perception bias, noting that drunk men often falsely perceive sexual interest while sober women underestimate it. This dynamic is exacerbated by teenage girls wearing revealing clothing to attract attention without understanding the "blast radius" of such signals in a world where predators are abundant, leading Perry to argue that parents must teach daughters about these thermodynamic realities rather than simply blaming victims or ignoring safety protocols. A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the societal pressure regarding romantic expectations and the resulting collapse of relationships under the weight of perfectionism. Citing Mary Harrington's concept of abolishing "big romance," Perry explains how modern culture places esoteric psychological needs onto marriage, expecting a spouse to be one's confidant, sexual partner, and business co-owner simultaneously. This creates an "all or nothing" scenario similar to Maslow's hierarchy but applied incorrectly; when economic subsistence is no longer the primary goal, people expect their partners to fulfill every emotional need immediately. When reality fails to meet these inflated standards—such as expecting perfect conversational compatibility for decades many relationships collapse because individuals cannot accept that marriage involves trade-offs rather than a guaranteed utopia where everything works perfectly forever. The conversation also addresses the rhetorical battle between progressive and conservative viewpoints on social issues, illustrating how progressives often win debates by painting conservatives who suggest traditional solutions (like modest dress codes or arranged introductions) as supporters of domestic violence or imperialism. Perry argues that this framing prevents meaningful discussion about trade-offs, which she identifies as a fundamentally conservative trait acknowledging that there are no perfect solutions only compromises with painful consequences. She uses the analogy of wine making to show how experiments must be tried and evaluated based on what works rather than ideological purity, yet conservatives find themselves defending past cultures against accusations of supporting harmful practices like colonialism or domestic abuse simply for suggesting those traditions had utility in their specific contexts. Ultimately, Perry concludes that the current crisis in dating is a multifactorial problem involving conflicting mating ideologies, safety fears, and unrealistic cultural expectations rather than a simple shortage of good men. She emphasizes that while acknowledging these trade-offs is difficult because it lacks the empathetic robustness of progressive victim-blaming narratives, ignoring them leads to poor outcomes for everyone involved. The discussion suggests that society must navigate between the static social lives of the past and the confluent demands of the present without falling into a "Bermuda Triangle" of contradictory beliefs about how relationships should function. By understanding the historical context of marriage as an economic partnership versus modern expectations of emotional fulfillment, individuals might better manage their relationship dynamics despite the inherent limitations and risks of navigating a complex social system.
Read the full video transcript
50% of men aged 18 to 24 have never
approached a woman in person in their
life and uh like even higher percentage
18 to 30 haven't approached woman in the
last year is this Downstream from me
too I have a certainly weird take on
this which is that actually the thing
you hear about as sort of the thing that
Gen X people talk about of going up to
someone in a bar and this being a way of
striking out relationships I think that
was a very brief period of History sort
of post-sexual Revolution but pre-
internet where that was considered
normal um and I'm slightly too young to
have ever actually experienced
that the normal way actually that people
start relationships in the vast majority
of cultures is to be
like is like semi- arranged marriage
right like not the fool you've never met
this person before you know 13y olds
whatever getting betrayed like not like
that but the sort of your introduced
by family members mutual friends you're
known in the community you go to the
same church whatever it is and then your
both of your families like consent to
the marriage
and it works out okay but that but the
expectation isn't like the expectation
of marriage up until relatively recently
was that you would have an economic
relationship a you and a reproductive
relationship but you weren't best
friends mhm and actually I don't think I
don't think hband and wives used to talk
to each other as much as they do now I
think people used to have much more
homosocial kind of lives you'd hang out
with other men you'd hang out with other
women you wouldn't necessarily hang out
a lot with the opposite sex including
your spouse um so this idea that like
the going up to a person in the bar is
like the normal and natural way of
starting relationships I don't think is
historically accurate that's interesting
so the male
version felt fear of approach anxiety
which every guy listening is aware of
apart from the Psychopaths right there
is a girl that I find attractive that I
either know or don't know or partly know
or whatever yeah hi how are you nice to
meet you is kind of like a miniature war
that you have to go to and the felt
sense of palpable fear is just ripping
you apart
inside that isn't or the modern aversion
to that isn't some novel new problem it
was a in your opinion here a bar that
kind of never really needed to be gotten
over in the first place in some regards
because you had seen each other at
church for ages or her father owned the
farm next to your father's land and you
guys had known blah blah blah like yeah
yeah people have much more kind of
static social lives so yeah just
approaching some
stranger and ending up getting married
to her is not I had this uh I had this
conversation with a guy called mads
lasson who is a mating ideology
researcher I'll send it to you it's
phenomenal and he talks about
this all of the different uh
Arrangements that people went through
and the uh romantic to the confluent
which is what we've moved through most
recently has left us with a really
interesting vestage which is previously
it was they own the the farm next door
it was almost like a tactical marriage
between the two of you and then no no no
no you're supposed to you guys are
supposed to be together forever you know
there is supposed to be deeper meaning
instantiated in this but then as soon as
you have the sexual Revolution you have
Confluence so for as long as you can
benefit me and I can benefit you I think
even Mia Khalifa who obviously Paragon
of sexual virtue uh said on a recent
interview that um people think that
marriage is some sacred thing it's not
it's just a piece of paper and if this
person isn't helping you grow it's time
to move on um so just the confluent like
uh ideology there helping you grow front
center you need to be helping them grow
yeah I'm not sure yeah helping you
prepare for your next porn scene I don't
know whatever she meant um so you have
this really interesting thing which is
that both the two most recent cultures
have kind of got like conceptual inertia
inside of our heads that we have this
sense and we were kind of told and maybe
some people think that it's true that
you're supposed to find a person who
fulfills you who is your Confidant your
best friend your the sexual Paramore
your the co-owner of your children and
the household and all the rest of the
things yeah and yet modern culture is
this more Confluence thing which is
they're supposed to benefit you and help
you grow and these two things kind of
bounce off against each other and then
you know if we look back ancestrally at
what we're predisposed for it's [ __ ]
neither of those two right like you can
say what you want about the truthfulness
or utility of both of those it wasn't
that and it seems Seems like serial
monogamy as were built for some
combination of polygyny and serial
monogamy uh and all of these the
existing base rate of what we are plus
the two most recent cultures are just
like like the Bermuda Triangle of mating
ideologies inside of our mind yeah
there's this book called the um the All
or Nothing marriage which is about sort
of yes this modern conception of
marriage
where where exactly this you put so much
expectation on your spouse that they
will be
you know you will be perfectly sexually
compatible perfectly like
conversationally compatible per you know
everything everything is perfect and
obviously for lad of people that isn't
going to be true and that's not going to
be true for 60 years or whatever that
you might be together um and so you end
up with this All or Nothing thing that
like some people have absolutely
fabulous marriages and some people just
they can't possibly take this strain and
so they collapse and the authors compare
it to um maso's hierarchy of needs where
like if you're in a position if you're
in a situation of economic subsistance
you basically just see your spouse as
like your economic partner with whom you
have children but your expectations are
not that high and then you reach the
point where you're so affluent right in
contempary culture where you kind of
regard marriage as yes as fulfilling all
of these like esoteric psychological
needs which is just not reasonable so I
honestly this again Mary Harrington
endlessly quable she has this uh this
this this saying that we should abolish
big romance yeah that the idea of having
these incredible like romantic
expectations of your spouse is just
pretty much setting yourself up to fail
one woman meme machine isn't she she
really is um what was your thing it was
you that reminded me of a story that I'd
forgotten from my childhood about uh
ladies dropping
handkerchiefs oh right as a way of like
demonstrating interest yeah so I had
this thing with me and David bus came up
with this solution uh around women
cultivating receptiveness if they want
to improve their dating Prospect now in
a post me too world where we're worried
about uh women's safety especially
sexually this is something that is kind
of difficult to say but again if you
want to work within the confines of how
reality is not how you want it to be I
think that women cultivating
receptiveness accounts for the male
approach anxiety problem right that you
know
a a slightly lingering a longer
lingering eye than you think or like you
know smiling at somebody as opposed to
doing the uh why men love [ __ ] treat
him mean keep him Keen kind of approach
men are going to be so bad at receiving
those signals though don't you think
have you ever heard that a the average
man of 130 IQ has the like emotional
social receptivity of a woman with 70
IQ like differ this is what my husband
so you're saying we're actually socially
[ __ ]
yeah my my husband and I my husband
calls me a witch because I can like I'll
be able to like sense there's something
off you are particularly witchy today
with the with the olive as well yeah I
think it's just women I think we are
just witchy witchy that's why you were
burned at the Stak BR you can just like
sense that something I don't know facial
expressions whatever something which
most men are just oblivious toink with
with some exceptions clearly okay so
yeah well let's take that as the again
the dynamics of the situation that men
are uh their EQ is 50% of what a woman's
is essentially um if that is the case
leaning in even further to not being
receptive is going to make said blinker
man even less capable of understanding
that maybe you're interested oh yeah
yeah right so I just think
that again another Confluence of the
hydra's head of lots of stuff that's
going on the multifactorial problem uh
women are maybe being a little bit more
masculine working in more masculine
environments thinking they need to be
more disagreeable to be more effective
at work concerned about their own safety
uh generally skeptical of of men that
come up to them strange men that come up
to them in a bar which has led to
absolutely less receptivity from women
and it's like look if you are
complaining like where are all of the
Good Men at look around a little bit if
you can when you're at your CrossFit
class or you're doing yoga or you're
doing whatever and if someone if some
guy comes up to you and asks some
awkward clunky question but he's kind of
cute like don't just presume that he's
asking the question like use the witch
Clairvoyance right tap into the astral
realm or whatever it is that you do yeah
and think oh yeah have you heard of the
the male over perception and the female
under perception bias is this with
sexual interest correct yeah yeah that's
in David David bus's book that men uh
overestimate the degree of interest that
women have to them and women
underestimate which is largely why you
have awkward passes by uh male
co-workers and stuff well what do you
mean like her eyes and you saw the way
that she looked at me every time we went
to the copy machine or whatever and you
know alcohol exaggerates that does it
really yeah so men are more likely to
falsely perceive sexual interest when
they're drunk fantastic which again just
makes so much sense of all the you know
like were you um you know that there was
like me too but for schools in the UK a
few years ago it was called everyone's
invited it was like a website that some
some girls set up to to describe like
bad sexual experiences that they'd had
with um what in school well not Al not
normally in school this was the thing so
it ended up being a big um headache for
teachers and head teachers because
parents were obviously really upset
understandably um and they said you know
you should be teaching consent workshops
in schools you should doing all these
things and the teachers were like this
isn't happening in school very rarely is
this happening in school this is
normally happening happening Friday
night at some house party the parents
are aren't there everyone's
drunk and like it's kind of the parents
responsibility honestly to stop step in
yeah and it's like look you've got horny
young men raised on porn plus
alcohol young women often giving
confusing signals I mean one of the
things that like teenage girls just
don't understand bless them is like if
you if you say dress in revealing
clothes because you want to attract a
particular
man that the blast radius of that signal
dirty bomb yeah like I was I was getting
a train recently in London and there was
a school girl who was probably like 16
who was walking ahead of me and she was
going up the
stairs and she was wearing such a short
skirt going to school that I could see
absolutely everything and I like I
almost jogged after her just to say like
you're lucky it was me who was walking
behind you and I know that you're doing
this
because you want to feel I like there is
a kind of thrill of feeling sexy that
young women experienced for the first
time and they have no idea
how potent and dangerous that that tool
is so you know you do it because there's
like a particular guy who gets the same
train as you who you want to catch his
eye or whatever fine but like I could
have been a creepy bloke and this is why
I think parents have to
be banning their daughters from leaving
the house looking like that basically
because they have no idea like teenage
girls are just I mean teen you know
teenagers are dumb the the the sort of
me too conversation around victim
blaming and and and stuff is such a deep
hole when you get into it to talk about
should things be this way no are things
this way yes do you want to play within
the confines of the thermodynamics of
this particular system well you probably
should right and to thread that needle
especially
because I I often think about this um
Douglas Murray once taught me that it
doesn't really matter who makes the best
logical argument in a debate if you
manage to get two or three big laughs
you win yes it's true and it's almost
it's all Vibes yep it's Just Vibe you're
a Vibe architect right and the problem
with this discussion if you have
somebody who is very anti- this and is
saying that's victim blaming you
absolutely you saying that you're giving
men a pass you're saying that women
should be fearful of what they should
wear and it's like that particular
talking point is
so empathetically robust in its
signaling that it almost almost always
wins yeah because the
most obviously caring argument upfront
that sounds like the one that sounds
right that sounds like the one that you
will get the most support for on
Twitter it's so tough to it's like right
yeah yeah no I don't
disagree but look at the outcomes that
we get from this one of the things that
um progressives really have on their
side rhetorically is that if you're
if you're a conservative who's saying
look actually you know there was a line
that one of my readers sent me from a
from all places it was a book about um
uh making wine and the line was um
Traditions or experiments that
worked you can say that when you're
talking about wine making and it's not
too like politically explosive but you
can obviously apply that to to to social
issues experiments that work exactly but
what you end up if you're trying to make
that argum and if you're and if you're
you know proposing anything remotely
conservative is that you have
to you end up having to defend other
cultures or cultures of the past so
you'll say look actually you know there
was a lot to be said for the sort of
slightly arranged marriage there's a lot
to be said for teenage girls being
encouraged to dress more modestly
whatever and people say oh what so
you're saying that you support domestic
violence you're saying that you support
you know Cola and imperialism and like
everything that might have happened
during the era that you're talking about
and you have to say no no no I don't
don't I mean you just end up at the back
foot whereas if you're a progressive you
can say I can see this Vision you know
like in the future we'll have this
amazing Society where everything's great
and the fact that this is this has never
happened and is never likely to happen
means that you never you're never in the
position of having to defend anything
unfortunate you never have to talk about
tradeoffs I think that like
acknowledging the existence of
trade-offs is a fundamentally
conservative trait yeah Thomas S there
are no Solutions only trade-offs yeah
it's really painful but it's true
unfortunately in other news this episode
is brought to you by cozy Earth we sleep
onethird of Our Lives do not spend 33%
of your life in anything other than
unbeatably comfortable sheets getting a
good night's sleep is the ultimate game
Cher and the sheets that you have are a
massive determinant of just how
comfortable you feel cozy Earth has the
most premium bedding and loungewear that
I've ever found they're made from super
soft Visos from highly sustainable
bamboo temperature regulating so you
will sleep comfortably all year round
and an enhanced weave quality that won't
p so it's higher quality will last
longer and you will have a more
comfortable night's sleep and wake up
feeling more rested and revitalized plus
there is a tenure warranty on all of
their products that's how confident they
are that they're going to last but don't
just take my word for it Oprah has
chosen cozy Earth as one of her favorite
things for 5 years in a row now you can
get an exclusive 35% discount sitewide
on everything by going to Cozy earth.com
slod wisdom and using the code modern
wisdom 35 a checkout cozy earth.com /od
wisdom and modern wisdom a checkout
thank you very much for tuning in if you
enjoyed that clip with Louise then press
here for the full length 2hour long
podcast go
on give it a press