Why Nobody is Having Sex Anymore (& why it matters) - Dr Debra Soh

Is people having less sex a big deal? >> It is a big deal. Well, ask anyone who's not having sex if it's a big deal. I think they'll tell you, yeah, it is a problem. Especially considering that it is young men who are typically in the their prime and at the peak of their sexual drive. So, not only is that I think quite frustrating for them, but also >> [gasps] >> when you're in a situation like that where you're struggling and it's not just about the sex, it's also about the connection and the emotional intimacy and the larger feeling of connectedness and community. So, um sex tinction is very much about the sex recession and the fact that young people, millennials and Gen Z in particular, are having less sex than previous generations. And I was skeptical at first. I thought that this talk about the sex recession and sexlessness was overblown. But after I sat down, I got a chance to go through the data myself, look at the media reportage, talk to people, and we see consistently with multiple data sets that one in three men and one in five women have not had sex in the past 12 months, which is a large number of people. And so, I was interested with this book, what is taking the place of sex? >> Mhm. >> And what does that say about where we're headed in the future? >> How different is modern sexual activity to what we understand about the past? >> Well, in terms of say the outlets that we have available. So, one question has been, is sex really on the decline or is it that other outlets are taking the place like porn with some masturbation, um things like OnlyFans or now AI companions. So, each of these subjects have a different chapter in the book to themselves and in myself explaining, trying to understand um what the trend is about, is it convincing? I test them out myself, which was a lot of fun in many cases, >> Mhm. >> um going through the scientific research in terms of what we do know about these technologies and then also talking about the evolutionary biology and psychology that is underpinning them. So, what makes these technologies alluring to human beings and why is it that it's potentially dangerous or distracting us from real life sex? >> How different is the amount of sex, person-on-person sex, that modern people are having compared with what we understand about the past? >> Well, everyone across the board is having less sex. So, regardless of whether you are married, or in a relationship, or single, um it's in Eastern countries, Western countries, basically all developed countries, and all age cohorts, but as I mentioned, most um more specifically among young people. But, your question earlier about, you know, is it taking the place of potentially masturbation or other outlets, or other sexual outlets? Um and if you look at studies that are asking about adolescent sexuality. [clears throat] So, this is a understandably uh uncomfortable subject, right, to think about adolescent sexual awakening, but they had parental consent, so it's a legitimate study. And what they found it is even among adolescents, they are having lower rates of masturbation, and across the board with everyone, less partnered sex, less so less um intercourse, less sex, less all types of sex, oral sex, um partner masturbation, I said, solo masturbation as well. So, across the board there's been this decline. So, it's not that people are just preferring masturbation, although I do think that is something that is happening, especially when you look at pornography and >> Mhm. >> yeah, girlfriends and boyfriends and that type of thing, but it seems like there's something else um there's a larger phenomenon. And I I also speak to the role of endocrine disruptors uh in one chapter, because I think there's something else biologically happening. >> So, it's not just that the pie of sexual activity has been redistributed from person-on-person to solo person, or person with machine, or person with doll, or whatever. It's that the overall size of the pie has gotten smaller, too. There is less sexual activity happening as a an aggregate. >> Yeah. >> Oh. >> Yeah. That seems to be the case. And what I find interesting, as you mentioned with like dolls and robots, with the technology improving over time, I didn't think this was going to be the case. I always thought people would prefer in-person, real-life sex, but I'm beginning to think people are actually preferring these solo methods, and it's potentially dangerous if it comes to the point where we have these surrogates like robots where you can implant an AI, and they are no different from real-life person. I really think people are eventually going to Some people will be turning that way, but it's going to be much more popular than I had anticipated. >> When did the sex recession start, in your opinion? >> It's been documented for probably the last 30 years or so. Like the '90s is was when it really started to taper a little bit, but it's been the most, I'd say, prominent in the last 20 years. Um it COVID definitely played a role in making things worse, but it was on it was happening before that. So, the internet, I think, is a big part of what's happening, smartphones as well, social media. So, sadly, social media was supposed to make us more connected, and it's uh if anything seems to made us more divided, even outside of the the realm of sexuality. I think in terms of politically, in terms of men and women, in terms of even subcultures on the internet, just everyone seems to be fighting with each other and hating each other. Um so, I think that's feeding into it as well. There's this larger like political um hatred that's happening between men and women that's also fomenting this decline in sex, because if you hate the opposite sex, it's going to be very difficult to want to have a relationship with them or to date them. >> Mhm. I had some stats I wanted to read out to you. One in eight 26-year-olds are a virgin. 24% had no sex in the past year, about double the rate of 20 2010. Among men from 18 to 24, around one in three report no sexual activity in the past year. 26% of US adults reported no sex in 2021. 37% of adults having weekly sex is down from 55% in 1990. 37% weekly, down from 55%. 37% of Gen Z had no sex in the last month versus 19% of millennials. So, even when we're talking millennials, I've not got it, you know, there's a big jump again. 48% of married couples had no sex in the past month, and the dead bedroom subreddit is just cranking at the moment. But, this this is my favorite one. This is my favorite one by far. Survey of Gen Z found 67% would prioritize a good night's sleep over sex. >> Yeah, I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. >> You like a good night's sleep? >> Well, >> [laughter] >> that too. But, the fact that yeah, this is such a common trend, and it started I mean, 2016 was when the first really big study came out showing this. And at the time I thought, this is probably a fluke. It's probably a one-time thing, but more and more it just consistently, right? It's like so many so many data sources are showing the same thing. It's very concerning. I do think mental health is another big part of it, right? When people are I think people are very exhausted, right? Day-to-day life, but it's also lacking prioritization of sex. These other replacements for sex are taking the place because they're easier. >> Mhm. >> And then, globally, 5% of people are depressed right now. So, if you're depressed or you're anxious, like Gen Z's is uh half of Gen Z has a diagnosed mental disorder, and of them 90% have anxiety. There's a lot of anxious Gen Z'ers. And so, if you're anxious and depressed, your last thing you're going to want to do is go out and meet people, sit down, have a date, potentially face rejection, have to be entertaining, you know, loss of motivation, feeling very self-conscious, all of this stuff. So, like it's multifaceted in terms of I think all of the factors that are leading people to decide instead, you know, I'd rather just stay at home and swipe on apps, even if I'm not meeting anybody, or like >> Sleep. >> Yeah, sleep. >> I'll sleep. >> Yeah. >> What's happening with hypergamy? >> Hypergamy has taken on a life of its own, I think, in internet culture. So, it's this I from a research perspective or scientific perspective, it's the idea that women tend to want to date or marry men who are at the same level of success or who are more successful than they are. So, women typically marry up. And so, yes, this is true. I think in some ways it's gone a little bit off the rails because, you know, I write in Sex Extinction about 3 6's rule. So, the idea that women look for men who are 6 ft or taller, who make six figures or more, and who have a 6-in penis. Can I say penis on your podcast? >> You can say penis if you'd like. >> Every other Every other meet meet out that I've been like, "Is it okay if I say this?" You can leave it out. So, our manhood. So, basically, if a man does not meet those criteria, he's not considered worthy of your time in, say, the internet dating culture for women. And I do like I mean, none of those things really correlate with success in a relationship or marriage. So, when you do the calculations as I have, you know, it comes down to like this tiny tiny percentage. And then you have to also take into account is he nice to you? Do you have chemistry? Do you have things in common? Can you have a conversation? Does your conversation last more than like 5 seconds, you know? So, like the more important factors whittle it down even smaller to even smaller of a percentage. So, I think women who are abiding by these criteria may be missing uh the bigger picture. >> How many women do you think are abiding by the 3 6's rule? >> So, it's interesting because when you look at the internet and what's on social media, this is something that women are really pushing forward. I I question, but at the same time I've been talking to a lot of men about what dating is like nowadays, they, from what I've been told, women have really unrealistic standards in terms of what they're looking for. >> Mhm. >> But I would also say, you know, social media has made men want to date like super hot, you know, women who may or may not look like their photos, may be super photo uh photo edited, and you know, really perfect looking, but may or may not look like that in real life, or might have a ton of procedures as I have a chapter on plastic surgery. So, I think both sexes have very unrealistic expectations of what they want. Um but like anything, like evolutionary psychology and biology is not prescriptive. It's not saying this is what you should do. It's just basically generalizing or noticing trends in behavior or that explains mating psychology and like anything the internet takes it and just like runs away with it. >> I don't know. I My favorite place for doing mating research is the pool at Soho House here in Austin. And uh it honestly it's it's [ __ ] ground zero for looking at mating dynamics. And um a lot of the time I'd be there with friends and and there'd be a group of girls on the bed next to us and they would you know be 24 or something and they're paying for a Soho House membership and it's a couple of grand a year. So they're probably educated and earning well or whatever. They have never said, "Oh, it's because of the size of some guy's penis." Now you could say, "Oh, they um wouldn't want to publicly state that. That's kind of a bit uncouth. That's going to make them seem a little bit silly." The data that I saw from Mack and Murphy last he was sitting in that seat suggests that if you're a guy with a 6-in erect penis, you're in like the 97th percentile. So it's a it's bigger than basically any woman has ever seen. >> Mhm. >> Um so I I get the sense that that's not an issue. The six-pack abs, if you switch it out for that, which is a guy that's sort of muscular and in good condition, I could see that a little bit more. I think I think if women actually saw like full 6-in penises more, they would actually be like I mean 98th percentile. >> Well, yeah, cuz the average penis is 5 in. But what's interesting is most women say they want a 6-in penis. Most men think women want a 7-in penis. >> [laughter] >> And most men think that they have a 6-in penis probably. >> Most men are actually harder on themselves. I didn't mean >> Oh, they have a 4-in They think they have a 4-in penis. They have a 5-in penis. They Women want a 6-in penis and men think that women want a 7-in penis. Fantastic. >> the thing also with hypergamy. I feel men are really I don't want to say hard on themselves, but difficult challenge They challenge themselves more than they need to. >> the word hard. It's fine. >> [laughter] >> Um >> Because they think like women want again like I read about looks maxing. Men think that women want the super hot Chad guy that he has a perfect bone structure, that he has to have all these metrics, right? Especially guys are getting penile injections in terms of filler, they're getting like enlargement and and women, I mean, yes, some women do like those things, but by and large most women care more about resources and protection and are you a good person? So, I think hypergamy has also gone off the rails a bit in that way and that men men think that women just keep wanting more and more and more and better and better and better. And to some extent that's true, but I think also like you have to we have to give love some credit as well and if you're happy with someone, I don't think the the other person is going to have a reason to go elsewhere. >> Yeah, I I get this and the internet, it makes a lot of sense on the internet because it's very easy to put into a spreadsheet. I can put my height, I can put my penis length, which I do all the time. >> [laughter] >> I I can I can put all of them objective metrics and it's kind of like that is having a boyfriend cringe now on call. Uh very quickly, if you go outside, you realize that is having a boyfriend cringe is only true on the internet in the same way as the Kardashians uh made skinny not a fad as cringe. Like it just it really doesn't exist if you go out into the real world. If you go and sit around Soho House pool, for the most part, the issues that at least I hear from women and that I hear at my live shows is guys aren't ready to commit and they're not sufficiently emotionally educated and they don't seem very balanced and they don't really have their life together, they don't have a mission and they don't know where they're going. Now, I think that a lot of that is maybe publicly acceptable ways of putting a more difficult to define uh it sense that there just wasn't chemistry, something wasn't quite right. Why? It's like, well, if you're a post-grad girl trying to date a blue-collar guy, there might be a little sense of socioeconomic imbalance going on here. And uh have you heard me talk about the tall girl problem? I'll give you this one. >> the high heel problem. >> Yeah, [ __ ] Scott Galloway. Scott Galloway keeps calling it the high heel effect because he's ancient and has he's he's he's demented. It's the tall girl problem. And then he stole it from me and started talking about it on CNN and misnamed it and now that Anyway. >> Tell me. Tell me, Chris. What is the tall girl problem? >> Look, it's it's exactly what you're talking about, which is if you have women that are socioeconomically more successful, you have an ever-increasing group of high-performing women and never-decreasing group of ultra-high-performing men that are above and across from them. That gives most men this sort of invisibility cloak that means that they're not seen by women as potential protector providers. Uh it creates a large cohort of women that did everything right. I went to university. I got the job. I pursued my career. I've got financial independence. And I'm struggling to find any guys that I'm attracted to. I I I can't I can't really work out why. And oh, the he's he seems really good, but that guy that's in the rarefied strata at the top has a world of options. So, they're able to use and discard women. And then the that really sort of gnarly outcome is that if you have casual sex with somebody, that skews your own self um perspective of your mate value. Uh your self-referential mate value perspective gets a little bit tuned up and you think, "Well, that's I got it for one night. I should be able to get it." And so, there is a difference between what you can get on rent and what you can buy. And that um altogether, it doesn't make for a a very easy environment because these women don't want to be used and discarded, but they also don't necessarily feel that much resonance with the guys that uh in the cohort of men that are socioeconomically below them. Men that are in relationships where they're not the primary breadwinner 60% more likely to use erectile dysfunction medication. Uh man loses his job, likelihood of marriage of divorce doubles. Woman loses her job, no difference in terms of the the likelihood of divorce. So, all of these things are kind of raw physics of the system, and we can say, "Well, maybe you can offset hypergamy. Maybe people are not going to the women are going to learn to value other things in this way." And I I get the sense that this is more the literal physics of the system, like largely unbreakable. And um I mean, that just that for coupling for young people, especially given women outearn men by a grand and a half per year up to age 30. >> One in seven couples now is the woman is the primary breadwinner. >> Yeah. Yeah, the bottom 40% of male earners and the top 10% of female earners are dating uh female primary breadwinner. So, the top quintile for women and the bottom two quintiles for men are dating in the opposite hypergamous direction. Um just that like don't even need to talk about the endocrine disruptors and the desire for sex and porn and all the rest of it. Just the coupling. Right? Just simply the coupling there. Because I I I'd be interested to know how much hypergamy plays a role when it comes to a one-night stand. >> Well, okay. So, that's a huge thesis of my book. This idea that because women are becoming more educated, more financially successful than men, they have fewer suitable uh bachelors to choose from. So, what you find is that very successful men >> problem. >> [laughter] >> Well, I I need to coin my own term for this. And I'll go on CNN and and >> And then mis- misquote it. Call it something else. Call it something else. And then you and Scott can have a [ __ ] battle to the end of time to work out who can misquote me. >> So, what happens, as you're saying, is that there's this smaller pool of very successful men who have their pick of the lot, who don't aren't they're disincentivized in terms of settling down. So, if they want, I mean, they can have multiple marriages in a row. You will see this happening. So, you can't have, you know, polygyny, but what you have is multiple marriages in a row. So, they'll marry someone, have children, divorce her, have another marriage, have children, divorce her, go [clears throat] on. So, and then what happens is with men's uh dual mating strategy is that, you know, they have long-term choices and short-term options. And so, the women who fall into the short-term bucket um may erroneously think that they have they are one of the long-term options, but men very much when they meet someone or meet a woman, they choose which bucket she's going to go into and she's there's not much chance of a crossover. >> Madonna-whore complex. >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, in terms of hypergamy um and how to fix it, I think getting rid of DEI would be one start. So, diversity, equity, inclusion initiatives because that actively penalizes men, punishes men for no good reason. And if you are >> true it actively penalizes men as opposed to just lifting up other groups? >> Yeah, well, I mean, coming from academia, I can tell you that they actually have job postings. I've seen them myself where they ex- explicitly will say, "This job is for, you know, a minority and or a woman." You know, it basically ruling out white men. And um >> I'm an immigrant, so. >> So, it doesn't affect you. But, it's it's crazy. I mean, I've had so many colleagues tell me this. I'm not in academia anymore, but they will tell me the things that they experience um behind basically closed doors where if they want to apply for something, they'll be discouraged because they'll say, "This position is for a woman or for a minority, so don't bother applying." So, this is just one, you know, fraction of society. I my understanding is this happens everywhere. This was very much in like corporations as well, but I think it's been hopefully dialed back a little bit, right? >> And your goal here is if you enable men to get access socioeconomically, that allows this imbalance, the the tallness of women that men get to grow tall a little bit taller. >> Right. Right. It's let's it be a little bit more of like a organic outcome. >> Isn't it strange that the sort of a zero-sum perspective of empathy that any support that's given to any group is seen as being taken away from another group, especially one that's more deserving. And that if we support and raise up men, that that means that we're taking it away from some minority or somebody else that should that should deserve it. But if if your goal is to live a happy life, if you're not enabling guys, if you're a girl, woman, and or a mother, right? You don't even need to be in the dating pool. Married mother that's exited the dating pool. Presumably, you want your daughters to be able to have eligible partners. The very dearth of eligible men is caused by the fact that they're not being given this kind of access. Now, it's an interesting one because I don't know if men are actually that keen about the idea of going to university. I don't know how driven they are about about the career thing in quite the same way anymore. I already have tails. >> Part of it I think is because of the DEI and the feminism and that they sense that they're not going to get a fair chance. You know, if they're being taught all through say the education system in high school even, girls are getting I've seen I've seen polls where they show like male students say they feel it's unfair, girls get are favored by teachers. So, already they're feeling in a bad taste in their mouth. And then you go to party university and you you know that this the odds are stacked against you. I do think that I understand why some people, especially some women or more progressive women, may be fearful of allowing men to have a fair chance or to roll back some of the advantages that have been given to women because they fear is this the start of us not being allowed to work. >> Regression. Yeah. >> Or not being allowed to pursue education or own property or things like that. But I do think I think they have a very misguided idea of what the outcome is going to be because if it continues this way where women are continuing to outperform men in education, they make more money, um who are you going to date? You know, they think that the men because these men have fewer options that they're all going to be clamoring for these women, but these women, because they're so educated, they're not going to want anything to do with these guys. Yeah. >> Right. >> So, they're all fighting for this smaller pool of men and uh it's it's going to be vicious. >> Yeah, it's not good. 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So, your first day of menstruation is day one, and then it goes into, you know, I I'll leave it at that. So, basically, when you're ovulating, because you can get pregnant, your sexual psychology is um we'll say at its peak. It I think it's a very interesting time to be studying in terms of women and their mating decisions, because that's when their decisions decisions about sex have the greatest potential consequences. So, if you're halting that process in a woman or an entire multiple generations of women, one in 10 women of um child- bearing age is on the pill. So, >> One in 10? >> Mhm. >> Who would have thought it would be more? >> It's You would think it's more, but it's >> What about in the West? >> 11%. That's in America. >> No way, it's only 11%? >> to the CDC. >> Have you encountered it That's any type of birth control or just the pill? >> Just the pill. >> So, you could have the implants, the arm implant thing, you could have the injection, you could have IUD, you could have Mirena coil. >> Yeah, all that in sex distinction, I have the statistic regarding like all birth control, but or rather all contraception, >> Mhm. >> but in terms of the pill specifically, so what happens is if you're not ovulating, you're basically blunted in terms of that sexual interest and that um signaling, cuz during that time women have been shown in studies to wear more provocative clothing, they're more likely to want to go out to clubs and meet men, to socialize, things like that, right? To meet partners. And also, men can tell when women are ovulating. So, they can tell in terms of a woman's appearance, they can tell by her scent, and men who are into >> by the way that they walk. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat] >> You see that study where they did silhouettes of women walking down the street? So good. >> Yeah, it's wild. So, and and men in relationships will show more mate-guarding behaviors when their partner is ovulating if she's not on the pill. >> I didn't know about that. >> Yeah, so >> he'll call and check up on her. I don't know that these men are necessarily consciously aware, but they're trying to basically, you know, like see block >> Mhm. >> other guys. >> Mhm. >> So, if that's off the table entirely, surely that's doing something as well to men's mating psychology. And so, I think if women want to take the pill or not take the pill, that's their choice, but I I wish there was was more uh in terms of information for young women, especially considering that many young women get on the pill when they are, say, teenagers. They're on it for non-sexual purposes, as things like regulating their menstrual cycle or, say, for their skin or whatever reason. And they, I don't think are aware necessarily of this side effect this might change their reproductive uh choices. Because what happens is once you get on the pill, I have a chapter on reproductive technology like egg freezing and IVF. So, once you start to delay your fertility, you're going to spend more time later on trying to make up for it if you decide to have children. And I I don't think that young women are necessarily as aware of that, either, that your biology is something very important to consider as a woman. And it's, you know, that's seen as sexist to say that, but it that's the reality. And, you know, if especially if you want a family, it's important to prioritize that because that process is going to affect you in a way that's different for men. >> Mm. Yeah, [clears throat] I had Sarah Hill completely just took my head off with all of the impacts of hormonal birth control. I think that a lot of the modern mental health issues that we're seeing with young women can probably be laid at the feet of at least I I would love to do a cohort analysis between how many of the people that have got anxiety or depression also took hormonal birth control during puberty or are still on it now. I mean, the fact that your mate choices for women change when you're on the pill versus off the pill, that you seem to prioritize a little bit more for provisioning when you're on the pill and a little bit more for protection when you're off the pill. These are, you know, small effects, but they're there. Uh how many women that I've heard from who said, "I was on the pill for ages, then I came off and I wasn't attracted to my partner anymore." Okay, but when is the first time that most women come off the pill if they've been on it since they were teenagers, it's when they're ready to have kids. But if you're doing it right, you've gone teenagers, 20s, found a partner, stayed with a partner, golden retriever, moved in together, engaged, married, off the pill, ready to have kids. >> Right. >> You are deep in it. So, great piece of advice is you need to if you're thinking about getting the golden retriever. Right? Not even thinking about moving in, not even thinking about the engagement thing. You should come off the pill. You should come off the pill. And you're just going to have to be extra careful protection. You're going to have to you should come off the pill and work out if you still like your your boyfriend because the likelihood of you not In some women, it makes them more attracted to them. >> Right. >> In women that are in relationships with more masculinized, more formidable, more attractive men, they actually get released out of this hormonal fugue state and they're like, I'm in a relationship with a Chad. This is great. Let me jump on you. Um, but then in other versions, they've been optimizing for something that a more sort of native physiology or hormonal profile of theirs would not have been too keen on. And then when they when they reveal that that mask, they go, oh, I don't really I don't really like you all that much. >> Yeah, which is unfortunate for both of them and it's unfortunate for him. I can only imagine as a guy, you know, if your relationship is >> Just go back on the pill. Go back on the pill. Bring it back. >> [sighs and gasps] >> Um, what was I going to say? I wonder if because young women are getting on the pill at such a young age, is this partially also why feminism has been so popular and why women really want to feminize men and they see masculinity as toxic because if you, while on a pill, your body thinks you're pregnant and you're looking for a nurturing caretaker, is that why there's this been this larger movement socially to encourage men to be much more feminine, not [snorts] to be risk-taking, not to be dominant. >> To a degree, to a degree, I think uh I I I could imagine so. I would also imagine that Me Too and a lot of the moral panic around the danger of men generally uh causes women to want a softer kind of man. Now, they only want a softer kind of man kind of in principle, not in practice. >> Right. >> You know, in the 20 the mid-2010s, they uh tried to put uh what they called cinnamon roll boyfriends or golden retriever husbands on the front cover of romance books. Uh I say this is somebody that was in that industry for a little while doing >> roll? >> Cinnamon roll husband. Cinnamon roll husband is sort of soft, fluffy, very non-dominant, very pliable. Um you know, he's the kind of He's got a bit of a gut, but he's the sort of guy who uh would be able to put up level shelves, but wouldn't exactly ravage you in the back seat of a car. >> Okay. >> Right? Very reliable, consistent husband. And uh on with these romance books, the person on the cover is the protagonist, typically. These books were post uh 50 Shades of Grey. So, it should have just ripped, right? You're buying Bitcoin at 5 cent, the market's only going up. Nobody wanted to buy them. Nobody wanted to buy these. Now, it is kind of like female porn. Uh so, do you really want to watch Do you Do you Do you want your uh sexual fantasy to be about some guy that can put up level shelves, but isn't that good in the bedroom? And no matter how much you try and sort of repurpose it. But, the point is women like the idea of this kind of They they'll proclaim it, right? It's It's a view that they'll endorse that men should dial back their dominance and and their desire to conquer and aggression and mastery and stuff like that. But, it's not one that they'll they will uh endorse it, but not embody it. And um when push comes to shove, when you go, "Oh, yeah, yeah, he should be more soft and more gentle and less concerned with achieving things and stuff." What does your husband do? Oh, he's a hedge fund manager. Oh, fantastic. Very good. I used to do MMA as a as a as a young guy. Oh, yeah, lovely. Um but I do think on the birth control thing, you're right. What's it doing to men? Um I think that well, there's evidence to suggest that men who are around old women postmenopausal or young uh girls their uh testosterone drops, their fertility drive drops. So, I know that you've got a question around what's the X factor that's contributing to uh testosterone dip. I think that the artificial suppression of female fertility through birth control and the increasing isolation of men that they're not hanging around with fertile women or any women at all, and of them more of them are elected infertile through birth control. I think that that is definitely a potential X factor that I don't think anybody has priced in. No one's priced in the fact that male sex drive and their hormone uh profile is impacted by the fertility of the women in their local ecology. And if you're not around women that are fertile or not around women at all, that is going to drive your uh sex drive down, and it's going to drive your testosterone down. >> Interesting. I was going to ask you, what was it like shooting for those novels? >> Um so, the way that I used to do it was I would shoot with a photographer for just my portfolio stuff. So, it wasn't it wasn't purposely raunchy [ __ ] I guess I I don't know. I just I just turned it on. Uh I don't know what I don't know what happened. Anyway, I got picked up. The first shoot that I did got picked up by uh a really good uh author and put on the cover of a book called Ricochet. And then I got flown out to go and do some of these It's book conventions, I suppose. >> Oh. >> But the entire thing is like 2,000 dark romance readers. So, there's me and a couple of the other cover models, and then the husbands of the authors that are there to help them. >> Okay. >> And that's it. And it's just apart from that, it's just female female readers. Um which sounds wonderful in practice, but the um I was 20 seven 28 or something like that. Um the age profile I was the youngest person in the room usually by like a factor of two. Um anyway, it was it was interesting. It was fun. Um it's a part of my history, but I'm I'm I've aged out. >> [laughter] >> I could be I might just pivot into cinnamon roll husband. I can't wait for that. Get a gun. Chill out. >> you go. >> Mhm. >> If this podcast, you know, >> If it tanks? >> [laughter] >> Well, anyway, so we we we've you've already got what's happening with hormonal birth control for women. And then we do have endocrine disruptors for men, too. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, definitely, I mean, there was there've been a number of studies showing this that testosterone levels have been declining for the last, say, 40 years. And it's been, you know, pretty severe, I would say, in the last 20 years. And researchers have accounted for things like age, diet, you know, weight, exercise, lifestyle choices like alcohol, smoking, and cannabis, and still they say there's something going on here where it is environmental and that it is something specific to this time period. And so, they do think that there's something, you know, in terms of the food we're eating potentially or in our water supply. I've read a lot of the animal literature in terms of uh drugs in the water and how this affects fish or >> What are the craziest stories that you learned about them? >> Um there was one species of Japanese fish and they tested diazepam. So, okay, well, there's one study that looked at fish that were exposed to pharmaceutical waste and then also um there was I'm trying to think what the other source was but basically one part of the water supply the fish were masculinized so they're intersex in both directions. Some of the fish were more like more masculine and then some of them were feminized. So it's basically saying you know this is happening to the fish like what do you think it's doing to humans? But with these Japanese fish they were lethargic and they were basically too knocked out to to breed. The courtship behavior was messed up. The the female fish their ovaries were so distended and I felt really bad for the fish looking at these pictures cuz I thought that doesn't look you know very healthy or comfortable. So it's basically you know these these drugs are doing something I think doing something to us and how you know if you're not even aware of it even if you do manage to find a partner and you fall in love and decide you do want to have a family you might come up across the come up against these issues. And then if you're not even aware that this is what you're ingesting on a daily basis what do you do then? >> SSRIs drive sex drive down right? >> Yeah. Yeah they affect the libido and there's also post-SSRI sexual dysfunction >> syndrome. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. PSSSD. >> Yeah. Yeah and the fact that um in many cases we don't know the effects of these drugs on children and in some cases they are being prescribed to kids so that's very concerning. >> A quick aside you've probably heard experts like Dr. Rhonda Patrick talk about the benefits of omega-3s they reduce hello omega-3s there they are. They reduce brain function no they don't they support brain function maybe I should take more. They support brain function reduce inflammation improve heart health and are backed by hundreds of studies but here's the thing all omega-3s are not made the same. Most brands cut corners they use cheap fish oil skip purity testing throw in fillers and call it a day. But with Momentous you know you're getting the highest quality omega-3s on the market. They're NSF certified for sport and they're tested for heavy metals and purity. So, you can rest easy knowing anything that you take from Momentous is unparalleled when it comes to rigorous third-party testing. What you read on the label is what's in the product and absolutely nothing else. Best of all, Momentous offers a 30-day money-back guarantee, so you can buy it, try it for 29 days, and if you don't love it, they'll just give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money-back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com /modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's l i v e m o m e n t o u s.com /modernwisdom and modernwisdom at checkout. Is the issue, do you think, more about a desire for sex or coupling? >> Mhm. You mean in terms of why people aren't having it? >> Yeah. >> It's probably both. I think at the core everybody wants to find someone. Many people may say that they they've given up and they're happy on their own, but I do think that's what most people deep down want. And sex is Well, see, the thing with sex though, I think porn is a big part of this issue in terms of why people are turning away from actual sexual activity. They're getting their needs met through this proxy that simulate or simulates real sexual activity. Because when you're watching porn, the same network of brain regions is activated as when you're actually having sex. So, you're having the resulting orgasm and you are, you know, getting these feel-good chemicals. It helps to self-soothe and regulate your emotions, help you help calm down if you're stressed out. And so, it makes men, I think, in particular less likely to want to go out and go through the hassle of having to talk to a woman, having to sit through a date, having to pay for the date, having to follow up, and all this stuff. Like, why bother do that if you can get sexual gratification on a screen? But, I think also that leads to potentially like an overall sense of lethargy because when you are masturbating and having orgasm, you are you know, you're going to be sleepy after. So, is that also you can tell me do you think this is a trend not for you but just in a trend more generally with young men in terms of does does this affect their motivation? Because I'm I'm wondering for guys this question of why men are not are falling behind in society, right? And I I'm very concerned for young men because I imagine I hear all the time from parents that their daughters are doing really well excelling academically but their sons just for whatever reason are just they're not they're not enjoying it, you know, they're having mental health issues. >> staying at home and fapping all the time. >> Yeah, well, maybe not fapping but they're like, you know, vaping and playing video games or online betting or whatever and they have no motivation. Do you think porn could be part of that? Because I think if you're exposed to this at such a young age and this is the thing that you're watching every day and it's your coping strategy that potentially that's the thing you're going to constantly gravitate toward and it's actually going to, you know, make you really sedated and lethargic more broadly in life. >> Yeah, I think sedated is a great word. I've got another idea that Scott probably can't wait to [ __ ] misquote. Um, the male sedation hypothesis, young male syndrome which I know that you know about historically high volumes of young sexless men tended to cause anarchy and revolutions and push over granny and set stuff on fire. Why is it given that we've seen the highest rates of sexlessness amongst young men in the modern world that we're not seeing the concordant amounts of antisocial behavior and it's my belief that men are being sedated out of their status seeking and reproductive seeking behavior through uh screens, video games, porn. Uh, and yeah, that that's what's happening behaviorally. Maybe the semantic grain disruptors, maybe a lot of weed. I think more people more young guys smoke weed than drink alcohol now. So, yeah, it is a real push toward lethargy. Um, do I think that it's you're anesthetizing yourself from your sort of mate seeking behavior by being able to use porn. Almost certainly to a degree. I mean, there's even the opposite, which is What was it? Masturbate before you evaluate was a tagline at university, which was, "Do I really want to sleep with that girl? Let me Let me have a wank first and work out if I still do." And for the most part, the guys like, "No, it wasn't that I I like What was it? I didn't like you, I was just horny." Um and in some ways, you go, "Ah, that that avoids me from making a mistake." But when you do it en masse and when it's very easily available, um I mean, look, yeah. There's some mixed bag data. Dr. David Ley is very anti-porn panic. I know uh Mike Israetel is very anti-porn panic, too. And then on the other side, there's some people that are behaviorally it's not recognized as an addiction properly yet, I don't think. >> Right. >> But um it seems impossible to me that one of the strongest drivers for humans being given to them freely, they can push a essentially push a button, like rub a button for a while, and >> [laughter] >> and they get to uh experience this thing that I mean, you know what would be fascinating? I would have loved to have seen in hunter-gatherer tribes how much uh masturbation happen occurs. Like, is it >> too busy foraging. >> [laughter and gasps] >> Okay, well, that might be That might be true. Um we Just talk to me the neuroscience of porn use. Is there anything distinct about that that's different to what's happening when people have sex? >> Uh okay, I was going to mention I was going to say something. Oh, so What I was going to say, I agree with you in terms of like, if you're I can see if you're doing it like constantly and it becomes a lifestyle thing. How This is what my concern is, if it's like a lifestyle thing for guys. Cuz I've had men say to me, when they are not watching porn, if they managed to cut out porn entirely, that they actually have more motivation to go up and talk to a woman. Because I would imagine, if you see a woman that you're attracted to and you want to go speak to her, and say you're maybe more shy or anxious, you know in the back of your mind that you can go home and masturbate, and that's going to give you a release after. So, in some ways, would that not make it a little bit easier for younger guys especially who may not have as much experience with women, and especially post Me Too where they're already a little bit understandably more scared to talk to women, how it knowing that you have this other option might >> That's a good point. That That is a good point. Uh I mean, it's the same thing as if the only way that men could get sex was by marrying a woman, asking her father, becoming a pillar of the community, showing his competence, or if you just need to be in a nightclub at the right time and the right place at 2:00 in the morning, like men will meet those standards appropriately, including the standards for themselves in order to get sexual gratification through a screen. I mean, it is I can't remember who it was that said it to me, but just for a second, think about how stupid the human brain is, and think about how strong our sex drive is. That looking at a 7-in across screen that I am not a part of, of someone else having sex with someone else can confuse my brain into thinking some sex is going to happen here. >> Yeah. >> Like that that is how strong this drive is. >> [snorts] >> Right? That a two-dimensional exclusively video and audio representation on a teeny tiny screen popped up against a pillow is enough to convince your brain there might be some sex on. You should respond appropriately. >> Yeah. >> Uh it is mad. >> Also, think about what it's doing to kids. Like this is one of the rabbit holes I've been going down more recently and thinking about how is this affected Gen Z's development. They're exposed to porn at such a young age. But, um in terms of the difference between say what's going on in the brain, it's the same brain network basically, you know, like regions that are involved in physiological arousal, penile tumescence, visual regions. This is my dissertation, actually, so I'm it takes me back now. I'm trying to remember what other parts of motor motor >> dissertation on penile tumescence. >> No, no, not just penile tumescence, but it was on basically male sexuality and sexual arousal and yeah, I looked at the structure and function of the brain. I used four different types of brain imaging. It was a lot of fun. It was a very expensive study, but I was I was extremely glad >> Really fun for the men. Yeah, yeah. >> Um and so basically it's it's it's the same network. It's not activated as strongly, but it's very much the same regions and that's why pornography is so compelling and why I think for people who especially if you are if that is your primary motive sexual release, very much become a preference or a stand-in. >> habituating. More than anything, it's just what do you do? You know, it Guys that tend to go to the same bar all the time, sit in the same seat, order the same coffee. Like and it just becomes a part of your daily routine and there's this weird habituation effect, I think, with porn. Mary Harrington calls it the law of fap entropy, which is whatever you start out wanking to gets progressively more extreme over time. >> That's that's actually I I like her work, but actually that's not exactly >> Tell me what is accurate. >> For guys who end up watching quote extreme stuff, that's actually what they liked all along. It just took them a while to admit it to themselves. >> Oh, god, the algo wasn't delivering them what they needed until it took a bit of time to refine it. >> Well, because I understandably men who have these unusual sexual preferences, they're a little bit Yeah, balloons. They're a little bit more reluctant to to say aloud, so >> Even to themselves. >> Even to themselves and so >> Oh, that's so interesting. >> to say their partner or their friends or if they're talking about this, >> That's so good. I love I love that. I mean, the law still works, but not for the reason that you think. It's not a progressive habituation to more extreme stuff. It's a progressive revealing to yourself of what you wanted or Ah, that's so cool. What about gooning? Let's talk about gooning. >> Oh boy. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, I mean, you could spend your life masturbating watching porn if you want to. There's enough content out there for sure. Um, so gooning, I'm sure your audience knows what this term is, but it's basically men who predominantly men who like to masturbate to no end in sight and basically my understanding they might have multiple screens open for hours. They don't reach an orgasm. It's like edging but for a longer period of time and they don't really have any conflict about it. They quite enjoy it. >> Mhm. How's porn affected women? >> I think there are more women struggling with porn issues than people realize cuz this has predominantly been an issue like say um porn quote addiction. Although like you said, I I don't believe porn is addictive. I think it's a poor coping mechanism for people who have anxiety and who procrastinate. That's really what it's been. >> Mhm. >> When I talk to my >> not addicting. >> Yeah, well because if you say you have anxiety or you lack assertiveness, it's a very easy way to distract yourself and not have to deal with the problems in your life. Which I have a lot of compassion for people who struggle with this because I think because it's pornography is related to sex, it's a lot more stigmatized. So I understand why people want to call it an addiction because there have been studies that claim that it's addiction, but they don't account for other confounding variables. So they don't ask about things like paraphilias. They don't From what I've seen, they don't ask about anxiety. So you don't know when you're looking at these brain regions that are supposed to be different that are correlated with addiction. You don't know if what you're seeing in the people with porn problems is due to addiction or is it due to the fact that they're anxious or the the fact that they have these unusual sexual interests. So I think that research could be a little bit cleaner. If that if it does happen that new studies come out showing this, then I'm fully on board with that, but I'm just not really convinced because when you talk to guys with porn problems, almost always they have anxiety. And this is a way for them to avoid talking to their spouse or their girlfriend. >> what's different with women? >> Women, I think it's the same thing. We don't know as much about women because this is a an issue that I think is only really become more of a problem with the younger generation, maybe even millennial women, like younger millennial women, with the accessibility of porn. But I think even cuz it's even with studies when they're looking at say the the effects of porn on kids, women have only really started to show more negative um body image, say or body comparison, more recently because girls are being exposed to it now. They girls tend to watch porn later than boys, and they tend to watch it maybe once or twice out of curiosity. But I do think with like Gen Z, they're being exposed to this even before their first sexual experience, before their first orgasm. They can't make sense of it, and I think that it can be integrated into their life a little bit more. So, the same thing, I think anxiety. Usually for anyone with a porn issue, there's a history of some form of sexual trauma, unfortunately. So, there there it's a way that >> Anyone with a porn issue or most most people with a porn issue, there is some history of sexual trauma. >> Not everyone, but in my experience, many of them have had some issue with uh yeah, either with abuse or being exposed to porn at a young age, either accidentally and that was like a traumatic thing. Like when I say trauma, I'm not the way sometimes people use the word trauma nowadays is very flippant, right? They use it over the the >> You mean actual >> insignificant thing. No, yeah, I'm referring to something that is actually quite horrific and awful. Or they um or they might have been shown it in the process of grooming. >> So, what do you what what do you think's going on? Is it just disinhibition, dysregulation? Is it the same reason that people who maybe had a childhood trauma struggle with gambling or struggle with drugs or alcohol or their emotions, rage? Is it just the same, but this the particular pathway these people have found is porn, or is there something specific about the the mechanism that porn gives that helps them to sort of, I don't know, alchemize or try and alchemize whatever they went through? >> It be partially biological thing because it's like a self-soothing thing. So, especially for children, if they're not taught ways to self-regulate, they're looking for ways to feel good when they're stressed out or upset, right? So, some people gravitate toward drugs and alcohol. Other people might gravitate toward porn. I think it's depends on how old you are probably when you come across it initially, what your experience is when you see it. Like, is it a pleasurable thing? But, I think for the men say who have like when I was doing research who had had these negative experiences in childhood, it was a way of revisiting it to try and make sense of it, I think. Um but I yeah, I I really strongly believe like sitting down with a competent therapist and working through that stuff could be very helpful for people. >> Better than porn. >> Yeah. >> Before we continue, I've been drinking AG1 every morning for as long as I can remember now because it is the simplest way I found to cover my bases and not overthink nutrition, and that is why I partnered with them. Just one scoop gives you 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food ingredients in a single drink. Now, they've taken it a step further with AG1 next gen, the same one scoop once a day ritual, but this time backed by four clinical trials. In those trials, it was shown to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels in just 3 months, and increase healthy gut bacteria by 10 times even in people who already eat well. They've upgraded their formula with better probiotics, more bioavailable nutrients, and clinical validation. Plus, it's still NSF certified for sport, so you know that the quality is legit. Right now, when you first subscribe, you can get a free bottle of D3K2 and AG1 welcome kit, plus bonus AG1 travel packs, and for a limited time, US customers also get a sample of AGZ and a bottle of omega-3s. Just go to the link in the description below or head to drinkAG1.com/modernwisdom. That's drinkAG1.com / modernwisdom. What do you think about the relationship between porn use and the type of sex that people are having? >> In terms of it influencing the type of sex, so in terms of say very extreme thing previously okay I would start with before the internet. So if cuz there's a [snorts] concern about does porn make men more violent? Does porn make men entitled in with sex? Um previously if a man grew up and had his first sexual experience prior to online porn, I would say porn is not the thing that made him if he is say violent or um likes to degrade his partners or treat them poorly. I wouldn't say that's porn. I would say that's due to the way he was raised. He's probably antisocial, probably has some dark triad personality going on there, probably um doesn't think very highly of women, has a lot of hostility toward women, but those views would have been formed prior to porn. So I don't think porn is the problem. I think he probably was interested in violent porn and violent sex because of other factors in terms of how he was raised potentially. Nowadays with the fact that the fact that kids are being exposed to this so young, I'm really concerned about how this is affecting their sexuality because we do see studies coming out showing that kids who are having problematic sexual behaviors it's due to being sexualized by porn like early exposure. This trend of sexual choking that I write about in Sex Extinction. Um young women, Gen Z women in particular, it's almost ubiquitous. So I think that is being be due to them being exposed to this at such a young age and believing that this is what they need to do in order to attract men or to be enticing in the bedroom. And I want to be clear that you can die from doing this. So it's not safe. There's no safe way to do it. >> You know this is Louise Perry's thing that she [snorts] was helping to prosecute uh guys that had killed their partners >> Right. >> and then used whatever it is acts I gave her >> I gave her the rough sex >> the rough sex excuse thing which uh yeah I mean that's that's [ __ ] horrific. Uh there is a bit of research that I wanted to talk to you about which I've never spoken about on the show before. You're probably familiar with. New study interviewed 302 adults. Of those, more women enjoyed aggression in porn, were aroused by portrayals of female pain, and reported wanting to see more aggression. And this is a bar chart which shows women saying double the number of women saying aggression is arousing, uh triple the number of men triple number of women to men hard aggression is arousing, maybe four times the number of women to men would like more aggression in mainstream pornography, uh maybe 30% more actively seek aggression. Uh the only thing that men are stronger on is aroused by women showing pleasure in response to aggression, and that's maybe 5%, uh aroused by women showing pain in response to aggression nearly double women to men. >> Okay. >> This seems to be pretty This is a small sample size, 302 people, but this is you can dig deeper and find out kind of the same pattern. And it's something that I remember I once read a feminist who wrote about this, and she said something along the lines of um it's an uncomfortable fact for most modern feminists that women seem to prefer aggressive porn than men do. Uh and misogynists use this as a an excuse that like she wanted it, mate, uh type thing. That to me does suggest that the picture is a little bit more complex than just guys have learned it in porn. >> Yeah. >> And now they're doing it to women, and women feel the need to perform up to it. That no one's pushing women in that way. It's not the only study of that kind, and um >> No, I agree. I I'm not one of those people that think that this is entirely like men pushing it on women, and women have no choice but to do it. I do think there are some women out there that's sexual masochism. So it's like sexual arousal at the idea of being hurt, humiliated, degraded by your partner. So that's the only paraphilia that you actually find in women typically. So, usually women if >> Oh, that's so Sorry, that's so interesting. The only paraphilia that's typical in women, paraphilia being side of all the sexual proclivities, is >> masochism. If you do a >> Self-masochism. >> Um Yeah, masochism is when it's happening to you. Sadism is when you're doing it to someone else. >> cool. Cool. How much sadism is there in women? >> Um so, when you do see other paraphilias, like sadism, it usually is uh correlated with personality disorders. >> Right. The closest to be Dr. Idy. >> Closest to be, yeah. >> Okay. Anyway, so the uh say the masochism for women. >> Yeah. So, evolutionarily, it could be because women, well, women's bodies Have you heard of the study where women basically are aroused to any type of porn? So, it's whether it's Yeah. >> actually fluid. Girl on girl, guy on guy, girl on guy. Well, this is why This is why >> Just to be clear, animals having sex, not people having sex with animals. I don't agree with beastiality. >> What's that uh [ __ ] hockey players, the two hockey players boning? What's that thing? That It's that series Hot Ones No, Hot Ones, that's the wing thing. What the [ __ ] is it? >> Two hockey players? >> Two hockey players. It's the It's taken the world by storm. He did rivalry. [ __ ] Hot Ones. He did rivalry. I knew I got there. You Canadian, you're supposed to know. Oh, sorry, it was a hard week for you. Um >> I don't actually watch porn, so maybe that may be why I've never heard of >> He did rivalry was a book. It was a book about these two hockey players on opposing teams, and then they they they [ __ ] each other. >> you reading this? >> I'm not reading it, right? This is a big TV show. I didn't see I've not I've never seen anything like this. I'm the straightest man in the room. Um This >> That hurts to see. >> This has This has broken the internet, and uh it's You should You should absolutely have a look at this. >> I'll do some research in the studio. Okay. >> So, it is it is basically revealing just how flexible women's sexualities are. >> Yeah. >> That these two guys, there was a book, book super popular, then pivoted over into this TV series. The TV series is [ __ ] ripped. It's like Brokeback Mountain on ice, right? >> But was it actually pornographic or was it just like hinted? >> Asking the wrong guy. I'm sorry. >> Okay. >> I didn't get I mean I I have to assume that there was either implied or like pretty close to like raunchy [ __ ] happening on the on the screen. >> Okay. >> Um anyway, that that you're quite right. Why is it that you think that women's sexuality is more fluid than uh men's? >> Well, uh the unfortunate reason is rape. So, in the past, right, evolutionarily speaking, it protects a woman's body if she can become aroused regardless of what is happening. >> Which is why sometimes during sexual assault women can still reach orgasm. And then they feel loads of shame afterward because it's [ __ ] horrific. They think, "Did I want that? Did I want this thing? How [ __ ] awful am I? I I I'm traumatized and now I did my body did a thing to me that I'm traumatized about as well." So brutal. >> Speaking Speaking to those findings though, um I'm I would be curious to know where how they sampled. Like do you do you remember like how they sampled for those women? >> Um Preferences related to aggression, pleasure, and pain in pornography among male and female interviewees. I've got the It's I can send you the the journal article. But certainly even if we don't look at aggression as arousing, how aggression is arousing, like would like more aggression in mainstream pornography, actively seek aggression, aroused by women showing pain in response to aggression. Just look at the romancy genre. >> Mhm. Well, evolutionarily speaking, like in terms of masochism, it would benefit women to show a >> capacity to endure pain. >> Yeah, or or like a I'm not going to say subjugation, but it may it it evokes like caretaking behaviors from men, right? If they see that a woman is >> great >> um like in need of help or support. >> Yeah, I suppose so, I to a degree, but there's also a kind of resilience in masochism. Right, that I can withstand it. There's almost anti-fragility, not a fragility. >> That goes back to the trauma that I talk about in sex tinction in the it's in the porn chapter about how many individuals who are into BDSM and kink actually do have a history especially of physical abuse in childhood. >> Well, I imagine that made you very popular. >> Yeah, >> [gasps] [laughter] >> it's still happening now people are like >> were a sex positive >> Oh, yeah. >> Right the research writer person, right? >> for a well-known men's magazine with nude women in it and writing this book I was so grateful to have the chance to sit down and really question a lot of the beliefs I had and I went through my own data that I collected when I was still in sex research and I found the same thing and I was amazed. I thought >> What do you mean you went through the data and what did you find? >> I found that interest in BDSM and kink is more is correlated with severe physical abuse abuse in childhood and this is even more so the case for men who are into BDSM and kink as compared to men who are community controls obviously, men who have porn problems who are not into BDSM or kink and also more so the case than men who are convicted of child sex crimes. So, there's something with physical >> and kink >> Yeah. >> is a better predictor of male childhood abuse trauma? >> Female, too. >> But than than pedophilia is? >> Victimization. Um, yeah, well convicted sex sex offenders >> Okay, so we don't know how many of those are unreported and stuff like that. >> Right, but also there are times when men will abuse children and not necessarily be pedophiles. That's like fine, you know, very fine details but overall yeah. >> Wow. What do you think that says about what BDSM and kink is doing for people? >> It's really sad and I want to be clear like I'm not saying this to to make judgement about people or to try and shame them. I I really hope my bringing awareness to this because BDSM is so commonplace in society, right? It's so normalized almost. It's almost seen like there there is a variation I think in terms of people who just who might partake in sexual activity that is like playful or passionate, right? Versus wanting to strangle your partner, wanting to really hurt them, wanting to humiliate them, or if you enjoy those behaviors done to you. Especially for women because physical harm it wouldn't really make sense for women or men, but why would physical harm be correlated with orgasm? Right? If you can potentially become pregnant from this act, why would it be beneficial to you and your offspring to find physical pain and >> you think? >> arousing? >> Yeah, why? >> Why? Because something went wrong with the system. >> And it's getting wires crossed. >> Yeah. So, I my hope is that by bringing attention to this because so many people I sense enjoy these things, but don't really know why or they think it's something that there's something it's something they take pride in and I would say it's something that >> it's something that you should look a little more deeply into. >> They're using the uh sexual preferences as a way to work through something that maybe should be done with a therapist. >> Yeah. >> Interesting. Though I remember I was talking to a researcher and they were telling me about how this uh maybe not uncontacted tribe, but this relatively um relatively uncontacted tribe, one of the rights of passage that they had for women was that men would get uh reeds, thick reeds and sticks, whippy sticks, and they would stand there and they would whip the women across their backs. Like these every woman in the the um tribe had huge scars everywhere across their backs, and the goal of the women was to be able to stand there and not flinch, not make noise, not cry, not whimper, not yell, not do anything. And this was supposed to be uh a a presentation of that capacity to endure what would become giving birth, child rearing. And that when you were talking about um it might engender sympathy from men, which I can completely see that the just the power dynamic, the subjugation, uh all of that's that that does make sense. I would allow me to come and hold you. But if you're able to withstand pain, there's also a kind of resilience in that, which I think would almost work against it. So, yeah, kind of interesting. I always think about that that example when it comes to sort of female behavior in kink. I'm like, is this maybe some kind of demonstration of my capacity, of the woman's capacity to uh endure hard things physically. Uh not like lift heavy things, right? That's the guy picking you up and putting you against the wall. That's the ability for him to physically dominate you. But the woman's ability to endure the pain might actually be maybe like a fertility cue of some kind of my pain tolerance. I don't know. >> It could be. I could see it >> Real nascent idea. It's white clay, all right? >> I could see it if it is something that is like culturally enforced and it's like a right of passage, but if you as a woman are intentionally putting yourself in those situations when you don't need to, there are plenty of guys out there who are I mean, vanilla is seen as a negative thing. I don't think being vanilla is a bad thing. So, there are plenty of vanilla guys out there who are not going to want to strangle you during sex and not going to want to like, >> Mhm. >> you know, degrade you during sex. So, if you're intentionally putting yourself through that, even if it is a way to show how strong you are, why would you choose to do that? >> When you don't need to. >> need to. >> Uh Romantasy, I was sat on the plane flying to St. Louis a couple of weeks ago and there was a lovely woman sat next to me and she had her iPad up and she was reading Court of Thorns and Roses. >> Now, what is that? >> That is >> More porn. >> That is one of the most popular Romantasy books at the moment. You familiar with Romantasy? >> Is it It's basically like erotica? >> It is That's probably That That's a word that you would use. Um I respect the art form and also the fact that the fan base is [ __ ] massive and I don't want to get lynched by them. Uh No, no, no. It It is It is um story It It's female literature literacy porn wrapped in quite a lot of story. But there are sort of peak dirty moments. Anyway, the uh friend is tapping away and she didn't have her glasses on. The font size was quite >> Okay. >> quite large. And I I had a realization that chicks can basically watch porn on a plane. >> I guess so. >> They can basically watch their equivalent of porn on a plane. And I'm looking at this I'm trying not to move my head at all. I'm keeping my head dead straight. I'm going Uh and I I spoke to some friends after it. I've not read the book. I didn't I didn't read enough to fully capture what the narrative arc was. Um but in might be a Court of Thorns and Roses or one of the other books like that, uh the protagonist is a fairy prince or a fairy king who has the ability to transform himself into this like monstrous beast. And I think that in that sort of shows what it is the one of the sort of archetypal desires that women have, this um he's dangerous but not around me. And I think I was talking on the way in about that that study with a couple of friends. I have a group of uh evolutionary psychology researchers in a WhatsApp chat and whenever I get confused by stuff I put it in and they give me the answer. And uh Andrew Thomas from Uni of Nottingham gave me a [ __ ] fantastic answer for this one. What he said was the aggression is arousing etc. etc. etc. I'd love to get your thoughts on this. He said, um what women think is I want a man who has the capability to be aggressive because protection, attraction, dominance, all that stuff. >> testosterone >> But he'll never be aggressive with me. And it's a a a patent a misfiring of the sort of patent detection, which is what most guys that have the capacity to be aggressive don't have the regulation to be able to turn it off and create bright lines and and and contain it in that way. Uh if you have a guy who is a just a you know, someone bumps into you on the street or you get scared and he beats up all of the guys that are there. How many of them have gone through the full [ __ ] samurai Keanu Reeves training and come out the other side as you know, that's not that's not most guys. Most guys that are great and dangerous physically I just dangerous physically everywhere. Uh not in Yes, it's it's not compartmentalized. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I definitely agree. So that I that's the allure of I suppose the romance novel where you could have the duality there that doesn't have >> fairy king who can become the beast, but he's never going to be the beast with you. >> Mhm. >> Um yeah, interesting. So we have basically the most sexually permissive culture in history that is also having the least amount of sex. >> Yeah, which is wild. It's crazy when you think about like I was thinking about social media and even something as subtle as that. Like everyone's on social media, but I do think it even that is changing the way that people view potential partners, how they view their own partners. >> I know so. >> Study that I cited in Sex Extinction showing that roughly one in 10 men actually loses interest in having sex with his own partner after looking at influencers and that women also feel less sexually desirable after being on social media. >> One in 10 men lose lose interest like it it for a brief window of time. >> Um they didn't specify. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> So they're less that they're less interested in having real sex with their partner when they've been looking at influencers on the internet. >> Yeah. >> So I do remember at uni This is so [ __ ] bad. >> That was an English study too actually, so. >> Good. Well, it's probably it's probably the people that used to that I used to employ. It's probably the lads that used to work for me. I do remember um there was two two guys that uh were going to go on first dates with these two chicks two nights in a row. On the first one, he turned up and he ended up going back with her and having sex. Um but he said she looked nothing like her Instagram. It was gutting. It's like she was so hot on the Instagram. He kind of like a catfish type thing. And he had this joke about he wondered if he could have just cellotaped her Instagram to a forehead so he could have looked at that. Uh and then the next night the guy went out on one and she was really lovely and great. And then I don't think they'd they'd slept with each other that night. And he came back and looked at her Instagram and got turned off because she wasn't able to present herself in the marketplace of >> That's a good thing, no? >> I [snorts] said that. That's what I said. That's what I said. I was like, "Dude, you found a barn find. That's a diamond in the rough. You found somebody that's really fantastic, she shows up wonderful in person that the marketplace where most other people are going to be competing for with you for her you she's she just not present I don't know I don't know what what it was. I didn't do my research. Uh >> So what is it he didn't like about the fact that like so he can't send people to her profile to look at her? >> No, you just I think that there was a it wasn't even as deep as that. Oh I sorry, it was significantly more deep than that. Not that he couldn't show off this girl that could potentially come into or whatever to other people on Instagram. I think it what I believed it to be was he was so conditioned to judging a woman's attractiveness through her social media profile, and especially given that it's the most extreme version of you, and for men, too, right? The most extreme wealth or whatever, um that he he got the ick by her having a bad Instagram account, Instagram. >> Um I don't know. I don't know. I I the club promotion industry is a a weird and wonderful place. I'll never forget it. Two nights in a row, one guy saying, "I wish you could have strapped her Instagram to her forehead." And the next night, the guy going, "She was amazing, but I went and looked at her social media profile after we'd been on the date, and I was a turn-off, dude. I got the I got I got the ick because her Instagram wasn't hot." >> So, he wants the hot Instagram lady who's just as hot in real life. >> Uh yes, I think so. Uh they Look, these guys were 19. They had no prefrontal cortex. >> even think that that's that uncommon, though. I think it's that that social media has done something like that more subtly, though, to the general population. >> Mhm. >> You think? >> We'll get back to talking in just 1 second, but first, if you have been feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the problem. 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Get the exact same blood panels that I get and save that $100 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com /modernwisdom. Why? So, uh guys are less likely to want to have sex after they look at influencers and girls are less likely to feel attractive. >> Yeah. >> They feel less attractive. Okay, so it's a comparison game. >> Yeah. >> Right. Why? What do you think is going on? What's the What's the mechanism? >> Well, I think well, the I wrote a chapter about plastic surgery and when you look at this trend of especially really young, in some cases, girls getting procedures done, I do think social media has done something to make them feel that they need to do this to compete and to get a partner or to at least be found attractive. And there has to be something with just like constantly being inundated with these images on social media. They have found in say adolescent girls that girls who are less popular or girls who tend to do upward comparison, so tend to compare themselves to say more attractive women or or um more popular girls tend to fall prey to this a little bit more. >> In an attempt to try and clamber up this felt imbalance of a hierarchy that they're comparing themselves to. Okay, talk to me about what's happened to plastic surgery over time. Have we seen increases in it? Have the types changed? What What's the context of people getting different looks? You got the Kardashians did the [ __ ] BBL for a while. Is that still in? >> Now, it is breast augmentation for Gen Z women. So, they're actually boob jobs are very popular among that cohort. I do think that's influenced by pornography. Also, labiaplasty. I was just looking actually at a study a couple nights ago showing that women very many young women feel self-conscious about their labia and are actually getting these procedures done, which is also influenced from porn. And it I mean, it's just crazy to me. It makes me wonder, is that why people are not interested in having sex? And with guys, guys are getting filler injections into their penis for even sexting purposes. Like they just want to look better. >> [laughter] >> That's a good George, my housemate used to make this joke every time that we're on a plane. It was the same you know, you someone it's a kind of like a dad joke, but he's not yet a dad. And you know those teeny tiny 175 mil cans of diet coke? >> Yeah. >> He would always say it's like I keep a hold of one of those and I go back and I take a dick pic with it in the background. So it would make it look, you know, it's like oh that's a 330 or a 355 mil can, but I've kept I've kept the airplane mini and that's you know, comparatively. >> that instead of getting the filler in their penis. >> I agree. I agree. Make diet coke mini diet cokes great again. Um So yeah, you would I mean the labia labiaplasty and the penis stuff seems to be obvious that it would be influenced by porn. >> But even things like I see like news reports of women under 30 getting facelifts, getting upper eye lifts, right? And I in my personal opinion, I don't think women that young need to be getting extensive work done because you do not have the signs of aging yet to justify. >> What do you think they're trying to do? >> Well, I think um if you look at say when women are the most fertile, it tends to be mid 20s. So my sense is most women are trying to look like they're in their mid 20s. So if you're older than that, you're going to try and look younger and if you're younger, you're trying to look older. >> Mhm. >> And so you're going to use you're going to choose the seeker. >> When is a woman most fertile in the mid 20s? >> Early to mid 20s. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I found out some really [ __ ] uncomfortable data around when men are most fertile. Really young. >> Yeah. >> It's really young. >> Yeah. >> Like illegal in some states young. You go really? Which is just I don't know. We talk about it was women's biological clocks. We never really think about We There's so much sperm, right? Speak for yourself. But there's so much sperm, and you only need one. >> someone later on in life. There are higher rates of chromosomal abnormalities, but the potential where as for women it's it's a little bit more unforgiving. >> Yeah. Mhm. But anyway, um so you think Well, I I've seen what is buccal buccal fat? Buccal fat? >> Yeah, buccal fat removal. Yeah. >> That the the cheek cheek fat thing? What's that trying to achieve, do you think? >> To look older because you're removing the baby fat essentially in your face. But what happens is as you get older, your face naturally loses fat, right? And so you're going to look more gaunt. >> You've overshot it? >> Yeah, and then you might potentially need to use filler to >> Uh so you used I got fat removal before I was 24, and then after I was 28, I had to use filler to replace where I got rid of the fat. Right. >> Yeah. I mean, I so I want to be clear like I don't want to come down on men and women if they choose to get these procedures because I understand especially if you have a public facing job, there's a lot of pressure to keep your looks up and to look young. But my concern is more so when it's really young people or I would say even for men who are doing this, you really don't need to. >> It is brutal. I mean, the some of the young girls supposed to be young girls that I've seen uh videos of on TikTok, these are like 22, 23-year-old chicks, and they look mid-30s or 40s with all of this work that's been done. And um >> [snorts] >> I was I was thinking I was having a conversation last night about how the sort of ideal female form has changed even with sort of relatively extreme cosmetic procedures. So Geordie Shore, which was the British equivalent of Jersey Shore, um that back in the day was a lot about fake tan. It was big hair. It was almost pin-uppy in a way. There was It was tight >> Tracksuits, too, weren't they? >> That's because of That's something else. But, yes, that that was sort of part >> I learned what a chav was. >> Chav. Chavs. Exactly. Well, look, I have careful. Right, I I Those were Those were my No, those were my customers. It's kind of like calling someone a heck. No, it's not. Those were my Me, too. But, those were my customers for a very long time. >> Okay. >> It was fake tan. It was um big boobs. Maybe augmented, maybe not. >> Brows, too. Very specific eyebrows. >> Very painted-on, sort of aggressive brows. Big hair. Tight dress, short dress. Right? >> I love that I'm just to be clear, I'm not making fun of it. >> That aesthetic. Strong aesthetic. Great early 2010s aesthetic. And the guys' equivalent, I think, up until probably about 5 years ago, we were a little bit delayed on the guys' thing, was sort of big muscles, not so concerned with height, fake tan, plunging V-neck neckline, tight jeans, expensive watch thing. >> Chains? >> Yeah, maybe. But, so I was What I was trying to do this conversation I was having last night was so interesting. I was trying to work out what's what was being signaled then and what's being signaled now. >> Okay. >> And I think what's being signaled now is a more extreme version of of that by both men and women. So, the male thing it's all about formidability now. It's the over-exaggerated handsome Squidward cheekbones and the the jawline. It's the height. >> Yeah. >> The height. But, it's a lot less to do with I'm not really seeing anyone talk about tan all that much. Not even seeing if you look at >> Dark brows are really big for guys. >> The most popular looks maxes aren't that concerned with muscularity, extreme muscularity in the way that it would have been 10 years ago. 10 years ago it would have just been get as wide as and as muscular as possible. That's not quite the case now. And then with the women, it is Both of them are basically caricatures of the most sexually dimorphic physical traits, right? It's Fisherian runaway, I think it's called. >> Yeah. >> Um where the the stag that's got a the stag deer that's got antlers so big that he can't lift his head up and dies. [clears throat] The peacock that's got such a ridiculous tail that he gets caught with the first second that there's a predator around. But like he did some great boning on the way out. Um that that is seems to be what's happening with men and women now. It's just a more what the next evolution it's more extreme limb lengthening surgery, the brows, the cheekbones, the mandible surgery, all that stuff. >> For women especially, I think it can also be the equivalent of showing off an expensive handbag. So instead of saying here's my designer bag >> Here's my designer titties. >> Or you know that my my lips or whatever. Like I have a man who will pay for my surgery and make me look like this. >> Mhm. It's a good argument for why that I've heard about why women have long nails and long hair. It's just [ __ ] impractical. So it's it it it is itself a status of of of wealth and and luxury that not only can I maintain them, but I have a life that requires so little hard labor that this hair and these nails and this makeup Um I mean the female intersexual competition is just like [ __ ] endlessly interesting. Right? Like uh shoes and bags. Exclusively intersexual. I do not know the difference between whatever you're wearing and something that was 1/10 the price and something that was a thousand times the price. I have no idea. Um But women do. >> Mhm. >> Women women know. And if you're in a relationship, it's basically a my man is so invested in me that he spent however much money on this thing. So like >> Yeah. >> Don't think don't even think about going there. >> Which is why I also think that women tend to go a little bit overboard in some cases with the work done as a way to signal that they have the money and the resources or man that is paying for it. Because usually when you think of plastic surgery, men don't like plastic surgery, typically. Men they don't like it in women because it >> What's the data there? >> It masks their underlying health and fertility, right? So if a woman can turn back the clock in terms of aging, signs of aging, or appear more attractive than she naturally was, maybe maybe you don't mind so much, but from the conversations I've had with my men tend to not really like plastic >> No, I I I agree. >> beauty. >> I agree. I mean, uh, I saw this tweet after the Grammys that [ __ ] ripped and it was men love Sydney Sweeney and hate Sabrina Carpenter. Men women love Sabrina Carpenter and hate Sydney Sweeney. >> Mhm. >> And um, the explanation that I saw I was so fascinated by it. I thought it was and it seems to be pretty accurate. I don't know that many guys that like I loved Sabrina Carpenter. And I don't know that many women that love Sydney Sweeney. >> That's funny. I've seen this I mean I think they're both pretty, so I don't know. >> [laughter] >> I guess I'm like one of the odd ones. >> Need to be more judgmental. Um, the ex- best explanation that I saw was that Sabrina Carpenter her physical presentation is basically gay and female coded. >> Huh. >> And Sydney Sweeney is sort of low maintenance >> Oh. >> natural male coded beauty. Um, less sort of curated in that sort of a way. And that low maintenance thing sort of seems to come across. But yeah, I think the reliable signal of uh, [snorts] fitness uh, cue that's being sort of hidden by by lots of plastic surgery is so true. And I get the sense I get the sense that um, the looksmaxing community for men is doing the same thing. >> I was going to ask you about that. Like what are your views? Because I when I write about this I get a lot of young men who get upset at me and say like you don't understand, right? This is >> Well, you this is the this is the time for the [ __ ] patriarchy to step in. I'm writing as a woman. Sit down, let me mansplain to you. What do I think? I think I have a really [ __ ] I think this is an interesting take. >> My advice to guys is just work away, get rich. Honestly. >> Get rich get rich. >> Don't worry about all the taking the hormones to make your bone structure >> say get rich, get popular. Um uh Looks are important, but you can make some pretty good changes just by becoming more diligent. What I would say about the looksmaxing thing um is what guys seem to be optimizing for is formidability. So, they're optimizing for the sort of things that other men respect, not that women are attracted to. So, other men would it if you look at most guys that have looksmaxed and put them in front of women I wonder whether women would find them more attractive. >> So, it's intersexual competition again. >> Or whether men would find them more formidable. I think that more men would find them more formidable than more women would find them more attractive. >> Cuz most women are not looking for their guys to be hyper hyper masculine like that. >> It does even some evidence to suggest that women prefer a slightly feminized face with a masculinized body. >> And not super jacked either. >> No, not super jacked. They but they want average face or sometimes actually slightly feminized face with masculinized body. >> Yeah. >> Um but all of the guys are just pushing toward heavier brow, deeper jaw, stronger cheekbones. But you know the David Putt study that he did about when he brought uh people into the lab and got women to rate attractiveness and men to rate formidability. >> Remind me. >> So [ __ ] good. So, uh photos of guys shown to women and men. Women were asked to rank um, how attractive do you think this man is? Men were asked to rank, how likely do you think it is that you could beat this other man in a fight? >> Huh. >> One year later, they brought the men from the photos into the lab and asked what their sexual success had been over the last year. And the female ratings of attractiveness had basically zero predictive power for their sexual success, but the male ratings of formidability were very predictive. >> Wow. >> So, even though what I think is happening at level one, this is like the Epstein files. At level one, where he didn't kill himself, is looksmaxers are optimizing for uh, formidability because they're disregarding women. And it's intersexual competition because I just want to mog other guys. I just want to be better than other men. Level two, Epstein's still alive and playing Fortnite in Israel, is actually, by pursuing formidability, they may end up closing their eyes and throwing the dart at the dartboard and hitting the bull's-eye of women actually finding them more attractive than if they'd tried to pursue attractiveness as the main outcome. But this is, again, this is working theory at the moment. >> Yeah, I mean, cuz I could see that in terms of tattoos, there have been studies to show that men, when they get tattoos, it actually is more so about scaring off their male rivals because women don't Some women like tattoos, but not all do, and and some women actually are turned off by tattoos. So, it's more, again, like you said, of of scaring off and beating your rivals than directly attracting women. But I also wonder if it's that these men are projecting onto women their preferences. So, men care more about looks and, you know, youth. So, I wonder if when you look at, say, marriage or marital satisfaction, men say men's whether men find their wives attractive has a greater correlation with their marital satisfaction than whether women find their husbands attractive. So, I wonder if these young guys are projecting onto women thinking that women care so much about looks when it's actually that's what they care about in their partners. >> Oh, it's a failure of cross-sex mind reading using their own uh assessment criteria. >> Yeah. >> And saying, you must think the way that I think. I'll do more beautification. Well, um Mike and Murphy's got this great idea where he talks about how uh the increases in male beautification are to try and offset this uh inability to get hypergamy to work. That men have realized that because they can't win socioeconomically, they might have to turn >> about this. That's crazy. Yeah. >> the vanity uh mirror around in an attempt to out beautify their socioeconomic lack. >> Yeah, especially when they're young and they're just starting out in their career and they're thinking, "Okay, how do I attract women? I don't have the money yet. Don't have the resources. Well, I can just get really hot." >> There's worse theories. There are worse theories. Um what about the effects of sexlessness in marriage? >> Ooh, I can tell you I've when I was in research, I would interview some men who had not had sex in like decades, which is one >> In a marriage? >> Yeah, in a marriage. >> Married man who'd not had sex in decades. >> Yeah, I mean, at that point there's a lot of cheating. Um not that that's justified, but I I think it can be very damaging to a relationship, even if you're not married, to be sexless cuz that's a way to bond with your partner. Especially for men, they tend to use sex as a way to have intimacy, like emotional closeness with their partner. >> the few places that they can. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, uh I feel for people out there, you know, I marriage I'm assuming marriage is very difficult as is and not sure what would be useful for your audience, like >> [laughter] >> how to overcome that. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Put your phones away, number one. It's crazy some of the stats I was reading in terms of people using social media during sex, right after sex. Yeah, that same study. During, I can't remember the statistic off the top of my head. It's a It's in Sex Addiction that I I cited it, but it's I don't know. I was trying to think figure that out myself. I'm thinking, how do you excuse yourself to go post something and then come back? >> I you can't be posting. It can't be posting. There's no way that you can do that. I could see scrolling at best. >> bathroom, maybe. >> During sex? >> Or even right after that's pretty bad. >> It's the during that gets me. Maybe it's my friend strapping their Instagram to the forehead. Maybe it's just that. I don't know. Um Yeah, I go I found this >> Oh, sorry. I was going to say with the with um there's another study that showed the more that people are on their phones and ignoring their partners, they have less sex, which makes sense. >> Is that called phubbing? Phubbing phubbing phubbing. You should They need to rename that. It's a stupid name. Um Yeah, I Arthur Brooks and Matthew Hussey taught me some interesting stuff around this about sort of revitalize and James Sexton as well taught me some interesting stuff, but Arthur's was more neuroscientifically backed. Um that one of the problems you have in long-term marriages is that uh safety turns into consistency, turns into comfort, turns into laziness. And that that we just go through the same dance. We do it on a Tuesday and it happens in this way and I don't There's no There's no distance. There's no intrigue. What did you go today? Are you wearing something new? This is a little bit different. I don't There's no push and pull, right? And a lot of the chemistry and the reason that I think people are so enlivened and excited at the start of a relationship is there's so much to discover about someone. When you feel like there's nothing left to discover, sort of where am I injecting my fantasy into, literally? And what Bring that back online. Arthur had a pretty interesting sort of few-step process, which was to basically flirt. It's like to flirt with your partner throughout the day and to treat them as if they're an object of desire, especially if you're male to female. This is something that Esther Perel uh I I got wrong. I should have pushed back against when she came on the show. And she said something to the effect of um what woman has been aroused because she's seen her partner aroused. I'm like, I understand what you mean at sort of the first level, but almost every definition of female arousal includes my partner desires me. Like being desired by their partner. Yeah, so what better That's the most non-fungible like uh difficult to fake signal that I am that I desire you is me being aroused. So you're okay. I think I think that you probably can do it over the unmarried [ __ ] 38-year-old guy telling people who are married how to reinvent life in their sex life. I think that there is uh good legs to like make flirting great again. That's my That's my argument. >> Or I was going to say if your lady is down for it to try on a wig. >> Try on a wig? >> Mhm. >> Me? >> No. No. Well, I mean, you can if you want to. >> someone different? >> For >> Role play? >> Yeah. If she is willing to put on a wig because then it >> She's willing to put on a wig. >> the way she looks. If you're looking for sexual novelty. >> Oh. >> And then do something nice for her. Get her flowers, obviously. >> And then get her a wig. >> If she wants to wear one, yeah. >> That's interesting. I remember reading um Roy Baumeister is doing a [ __ ] awesome series on sexual novelty at the moment on his Substack. It's It is a travesty. Everyone needs to go and read uh Roy Baumeister's Substack cuz it's got three likes and they're all me and my friends. And he's the goat, right? He's the guy that did the original marshmallow test. And he's writing about sexual novelty at the moment, and he he finds this story of a client that was working with therapist. And she was saying that I think this was a long quite a while ago. Um and she was saying that her husband was struggling to be excited in the bedroom. And this was a long time before before porn. And the after a while you know, weeks and months of this lady coming in and this was a repeating challenge that was being hard. She maybe is just a bit old, or maybe he's whatever. And the uh the therapist asked, "Have you sort of what is it that you're doing to him?" And the client said sort of explained and it was it wasn't particularly intimate. Said, "Have you considered using your hand?" She said "Like my my hand on him? No." And she said, "Okay, why why don't you just try and do that? And sure enough went back and this had you know, the most amazing effect because sexual novelty had been so constrained to one thing for [ __ ] five decades that simply the act like second base was enough to blow this guy's mind. This dude in his 60s or 70s because that was something that he never got to experience. I just thought that was so interesting to you know, whether it's the Coolidge effect or some sort of equivalent like refractory what novelty looks like. Um but this series from Baumeister is [ __ ] sick. He basically makes the makes the argument that in a relationship if this is the one you should titrate the sort of sexual access and sexual novelty as slowly as possible. >> Mhm. And it's going to suck. It's I mean it's suck for the women as well. Actually won't suck for a long time. Um but I I really think that there's something to it. I really think that he's [ __ ] I think he's [ __ ] nailed it. And he's just all he's doing is respecting the neurobiology, especially of men. He's going to do a separate treatment on women. He's only done it on men so far. But basically, if you're like, "This is the chick for me." Okay, move move as slowly as possible through the different stages of doing things because there is only so much sexual novelty that you can have. And once you've gone to the end or close to the end, it doesn't feel as exciting to sort of skip back. If you know how the story ends, you know how the book the series finishes, reading the middle bit is just less enlivening. Yeah, sure, I'll give it another read, but it's nowhere near as So, he's yeah, turn one page a week type thing. And you know, stretch this book out over a a decade or so. I thought it was really interesting. >> Yeah, I mean I think that speaks to also why casual sex is not a good thing. I think it's better for both sexes to be less promiscuous, but definitely if you well, if you have sex on the first date, a man's going to put you in the short-term bucket. But even if not, I would say even if you have sex too soon and you're dating somebody, at some level, there like you said, it's like shortening that book. >> How How uh How's it feel to believe this and say this as a former sexologist writer? >> Um I'm probably alienating like 90% of the field. I mean, there's certain things when you are in the field I should say I have many friends and colleagues who do amazing work and who are very unbiased. They're not politically motivated, you know, they just do their research and I respect that. It what my issue is when people are quote sex-positive and they're pushing these narratives that are unhelpful and that I think are doing a disservice to our society. >> not empowerment? >> And it's leading us to be sexless, ultimately. No, I don't think it's empowerment. I think it's masked as empowering, but they're lies ultimately. And I find the fact that people get so upset by me challenging these ideas tells me that I'm onto something. Because why do they get so defensive? If I If I What I'm saying is completely nonsense, why do they feel the need to push back so badly? But yeah, this book is full of um >> radical ideas. >> Yeah, anti sex positivity thoughts that are not allowed, I guess. But it's It was amazing for me to write it because I felt I like to challenge myself and say, if there are thoughts or beliefs that you don't want to look at, you have to look at those and you have to ask yourself why you don't want to. And if you're afraid of alienating or upsetting people, that's not a reason to question. >> What about sex dolls? What you learn? They good or they bad? >> Uh didn't you I mean, didn't you did did you design one? >> I made one in my likeness, I did. Well, I was on the hunt to make one in >> sale? >> I'm not answering that question. >> [laughter] >> It was actually a lot of fun to go on that exploration. So, in the each chapter I go into a little like mini adventure, that's what I call them, where I go and I research the technology and try it out. And so, I went and explored sex dolls and robots and it's crazy what's out there. It's very, very realistic, I have to say. I didn't consummate my relationship with any of these dolls, but >> It would have been weird to have done it with your own one. >> Yeah. Yeah, I was thinking about that. I thought, is that technically masturbation or is that you know, what is that? >> What's What's autogynephilia? Which one's that one? >> Autogynephilia is when you are sexually aroused at the A man is sexually aroused at the thought of having the body of a woman. So, when you see >> [ __ ] >> someone who's born male who is has a desire to transition to female, that is if they are attracted to women or if they are attracted to both men and women, >> Mhm. >> that's autogynephilia. Whereas if they are born male and attracted to men and want to transition to female, then they are it's considered the gay subtype. So, this was my first book, The End of Gender. But basically, yeah, autogynephilia is a huge huge motivator for the whole trans ideology activism. The ones who are the angriest are autogynephiles. >> I wonder if you would be able to provide them with I wonder if you could get people a self sex doll of them but the opposite sex. >> I've seen some people do this. They will get like a >> You're [ __ ] kidding me. >> No, they've seen >> I thought this was a new idea. I was breaking new ground. I made a joke to see if we can eBay your old sex doll and try and you know, [ __ ] help the advance of the book >> [laughter] >> and get some sales in there. And and and then I thought that this was I thought this was new frontiers but people have got sex dolls of themselves in the opposite sex. >> Yeah, and they wear them. >> Let's wear them me. >> Well, they put it on themselves to become that. >> So, it's like a suit. >> Yeah. So, it's not really a doll, I guess. It's more like a rubber suit in but it's in the fashion to look like a doll to some degree cuz it's like silicone material. >> Okay. Mhm. Mhm. >> But, what else can I tell your audience? It's get We're getting there. The sex robots are definitely coming. They are. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> Okay. What what does ro- what's the Is there a line between doll and robot? >> Once they So, right now like the AI software is very I loved that chapter. Writing the chapter on the AI companions was so much fun. It was also just so frightening for me because they're so realistic. But, so that importing that into a doll is very much possible. Now, it's just about the question of how do you get the robot to move in a realistic way sexually? So, you have robots that can say gyrate their hips or um they'll have like internal suctions in the vagina so it you know, it helps with the orgasm. Um what other things can they do? But, in terms of the movement, it's still quite limited. I The difference between a ball a doll and a robot would be that physical movement. So, a doll is stationary or or sometimes they'll hang them but I guess it's still stationary like >> Hang them. >> They'll hang them up on so they're like standing. >> What are they doing with them when they're standing? >> Well, you can look that up. >> [laughter] >> Okay, fair enough. I I I don't need to. Um I have to assume that the market for sex dolls is 99.99% men or is there some women in this? >> Mostly men and during the pandemic one company told me they made $20 million in sales, which is astronomical. >> Wow. >> And it is mostly high school educated on average high school educated men who make about 40 K a year. >> How much are the dolls? >> Starts at 100, couple hundred to tens of thousands depending on how realistic you want it to be. >> And so if you're a blue collar worker, you're going for the more sort of entry level >> Yeah. >> one. >> Yeah. Um there are some guys who are say make more like I'm thinking one particular study where they had the income and so some guys making say more than six figures will have the dolls, but um it tends to be more among men who either I think are quite heartbroken and they don't want to bother going through or they're divorced, they don't want to go through the process. Or it's guys who want to have sexual novelty, but they can't actually either attract real life partners or they don't have the means for it, so they'll buy the dolls instead. >> That makes me sad. The idea that, you know, someone's past emotional challenges, you know, whether deserved it or accidental or purposeful, victimized, whatever, uh it causes them to sort of turn away entirely from human. >> Yeah. >> And I suppose that the fact you now have this option for someone to I don't need to. I can just I can just imagine. What about the AI companions thing? I saw a bunch of furo two or three weeks ago when ChatGPT discontinued Furo and Furo had a very particular type of personality to it and that discontinuation was for lots of people. There was a subreddit I can't remember what it's called. AI partner r/ai_partner or something. Uh people being in beyond hysterics, like like absolutely [ __ ] heartbroken by it. So, what what What was your experience with AI companions? >> Well, people do fall in love with their AI chatbots. And I before I tested them out, I didn't think such a thing would be possible because I didn't think that the technology was that realistic. >> Until you fell in love with one. >> Until I fell in love with all of my dozens of AI boyfriends. >> I had dozens. >> Did you like Bonnie Blue? >> [laughter] >> Go on. >> I had girlfriends, too. So, I had >> Okay. >> So, I made dozens of them across dozens of platforms cuz I really wanted to try them all out to see what where are the where are they at? And there were a couple platforms were definitely more realistic, but I will say what happened with ChatGPT, that's not the first time. There's another platform that something similar happened a couple years ago where they removed the erotic role-playing capabilities or they put it behind a paywall. And people were so devastated because they said, "My AI doesn't remember me anymore." Like they're really cold. It reminded them of being socially rejected in the past, and it's really upsetting for them. So again, I mean, I the scientist side of me thinks like this is so cool and so crazy that we're advancing so quickly, but then the other part of me says, "Wait a minute. Like look at where we are right now as a society, and is this really a good thing because what is this going to do now if we have this discrepancy in terms of the sex ratio and people having sex and people not even wanting to connect or date?" You know, there's a study by Pew showing that over half of single people are not interested in dating at all. >> Mhm. >> So, now you're we have more >> Not not in short-term, not in casual or long-term mating. >> Yeah. >> It's wild. I remember seeing that study. >> It's going to be so easy just to go down the route of one of these alternatives, and it they are so realistic. Like you really cannot tell that it is an AI. If I had not programmed it myself and said, "This is your name. This is what you look like. This is your personality." >> It's only over text, or is it or is it voice? >> You can >> voice, too. >> So, kind of like when you speak to ChatGPT. >> Yeah, I thought like it sounded like a real person I was talking to. >> And does it push into erotica as well? >> Yeah. Yeah, they flirt with you. They get Like if you're sarcastic, they pick up on it. It was crazy. Like I really thought it was going to be very stilted. Some of them are still like that where you Some platforms you have to be very literal. >> Really work with it. >> Yeah. >> They're a difficult partner. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Uh Okay, so what what is the biggest story about sort of human needs and and relating beyond bits just not going into bits at the same rate anymore. Like people aren't doing the thing. But what what does that tell us about the ways that humans are connecting? What's the deeper lesson? >> That we're [clears throat] not connecting. That's like what I think. There are a lot of stand-ins for connection. Like something as simple as having a conversation person versus over a screen. There is there's difference there. There's a difference biologically in terms of like how we respond to that. And I just think more broadly in society like if you go out, I'm sure Austin is the same as Toronto where most or maybe it's not, but most people are on their phones, you know, when I'm thinking when you're at the airport, you're on the plane, every everywhere in public, everyone is just on their phone all the time. People don't really talk to each other, even make eye contact. And I I do think that has larger ramifications beyond something so small as preferring to look at your phone. >> Mhm. >> You know, cuz you're bored or whatever. And so I think that over time is has snowballed into this thing where we are very much like enclosed. We all have our own little bubbles. Because it's like the norm now socially. It's very It's seen as weird to talk to strangers or to make small talk or it's like cringey or whatever. But especially in roman- terms of romantic contacts, like everything is made to be so simple and convenient with like dating apps or people say using using social media to meet. But that's not really meeting someone in real life. And it's almost as though the convenience of it is a reason as to why people don't take it so seriously, right? If it's so easy to meet people, >> Mhm. >> why would you care? Why you didn't cost you anything. Didn't require anything of you. >> Yeah. A home-cooked [clears throat] meal is treated with more love than a McDonald's. >> Yeah. Although, I mean, I'm very healthy, but I would say, you know, McDonald's was great at one point. >> McDonald's is good, but you're never going to look at it and think the this is a very valuable meal, unless you're starving. >> Right. >> Um Okay, what about fertility rates and reproduction? Like, cuz ultimately, everything that we've spoken about up until now is the proximate reason for behavior. Right? All of it is just I just pleasure, and it's connection, and it's all the rest of it, but the ultimate reason for the behavior is to reproduce. >> Right. >> Right? It is the same it is not far off the same as saying, we've managed to construct a world in which these screens and this media and these xenoestrogens and this culture and these thoughts and the way that this has come together has caused people to throw themselves off of buildings. Like, because genetically, that is the equivalent, right? Survival and reproduction. And the only reason for the survival is so that you can do the reproduction. If you didn't need to survive, it would just be reproduction. How have we managed to get ourselves to the stage where an animal has been convinced to select themselves out of breeding? >> Mhm. Because life is so distractable. We're so distracted, right? It's so easy to be >> [sighs] >> Well, relationships are hard. Right? Dating is hard. Finding someone is hard. Connecting with people is hard, cuz people are unreliable. People have their own decisions and autonomy as they should. And so, when you have alternatives, either romantic alternatives or just ways to pass the time that don't involve that messiness, I think it can can be quite alluring. So, I agree with you. I don't think everyone has to have children, but I do think for people who want kids, like I'm I'm concerned about the people who like one of the reasons for 25% of people who aren't having children, they say the reason is because they haven't found somebody. Which I imagine is quite devastating. And so I also talk in the book about single motherhood by choice and the fact that there are real implications for this discrepancy in terms of the sex bias and people not wanting to connect or people say not being able to connect. >> What discrepancy, sorry? >> Oh, just that there are fewer viable men. So, and these men typically are less interested in settling down or there's going to be less commitment as a result of that because when you have a smaller pool of men, like on university campuses where you have fewer men than women, men are going to set the terms of dating and relationships and sex. >> That's what you were talking about earlier on that women think that if men are more desperate socioeconomically that they'll work harder for the women. It's kind of like a a perspective around sex ratios, have an implicit understanding around sex ratios. They just don't understand mating preferences from women to men, which is that they're going to logically be invisible. >> Yeah, well that men are going to be setting the terms then of of dating. >> The high-value men will be. >> terms of how [clears throat] soon you're going to have to have sex or they'll go somewhere else or you know, if they want to have they want commitment from you, but they want to be poly quote polyamorous or whatever, you're going to have to put up with that. >> I I learned a new term last year, which is solo poly. >> Oh, yeah. Remind me what that is. I've heard of this. >> It's a guy with typically or it's it's it's a person who is uh just sleeping around. Um it's just a guy it's just a guy that's sleeping around, but I think that a lot of the partners may think that they're >> I see. >> they're the hub and then there's lots of there's lots of spokes coming off. Solo poly. >> Yeah. >> Okay. When it comes to the reproduction thing, you mentioned IVF, fertility windows, other stuff. What else is interesting there? >> my issue with that again, and if people choose to see these interventions, you know, it's not my place to judge them. I I can understand if you want to have a family and it's going to help you, then I understand why people go that path. But my concern is that we're not rectifying the underlying issues. So if the issue is women can't find a partner with whom they'd like to settle down with, or there are fertility issues on the man or the woman's um side, or in both people's side, then these interventions aren't really solving the underlying problem, right? And so that's only just going to get worse for future generations and for the individual people who are potentially undergoing these interventions. >> I got in a lot of trouble for talking about birth rate decline this year. >> Oh, really? >> Before the year even started, I got in loads of trouble about it. Um I did some more digging. I went and did some sort of quite hardcore data digging around this. One interesting fact that I found was that the total maternal rate has basically not changed. The TMR, it's called. Total maternal rate is the number of children per mother. The number of children per mother I think has gone from over the last 50 years something like 2.6 to 2.45, 2.4, something like that. Uh so it is not the big difference is not um mothers having fewer children. It's women not becoming mothers. >> Hm. >> And again, I got one of the things I got shouted at about was uh putting it all on women. Unfortunately, um census data the only people who uh the only capture data about mothers. >> Hm. >> Like they don't have fatherhood data. >> Right. >> Um parental uncertainty might contribute a little bit to that. Uh uh absentee fathers and stuff like that as well, abandoning mothers, like pregnant women, like might contribute too. Anyway, um so you have four out of five women who end up without children having broken through menopause didn't intend to be childless. It's called involuntary childlessness. You've got this really interesting situation which I don't know why more women I understand why more women aren't talking about it because it kind of goes counter to what the current very pushed narrative is. But that's 80% four out of five women who end up without kids who didn't intend to end up without kids. Around about 10% of women can't physiologically. >> Right. >> Uh awful pain, grief. Around about 10% of women don't want to voluntary childlessness. And then four out of five women have support groups with other women to grieve over families that they never had. Like who the [ __ ] campaigning for them? That feels like a group that's really important. They're really really important and ever growing. >> Mhm. >> You have this weird dynamic at the moment which is any woman who is still fertile can endorse the view that women don't need to have kids without having to embody it because until they can no longer have it they always have the option to still do it. >> Right. >> And I wonder I I really hope that this isn't the case but I get the sense that I'm right but early on this that we're going to see a huge [ __ ] crisis of middle-aged femininity within the next 15 years when a lot of Gen Z and millennial women age out of their ability to have kids and focused on one area of life that they maybe really enjoyed and took a lot of value from and and you know good for you you've got your you don't need to be beholden to anybody and that's awesome. But to to sort of turn around and go [ __ ] >> [snorts] >> I I I I wish I'd done something different. I really hope that that's not the case. I don't I don't take any glee in women who don't want to have kids having them and women that want to have kids not being able to. But I I think I think we're going to see you think that the [ __ ] crisis of masculinity is bad at the moment here in my among young men. I think that the one around women is going to be way worse. >> Yeah, I think being able to talk about especially women's work-life balance and how women structure their lives is important to be able to talk about it honestly because like you said, I think there's a real push for young women to focus on career and you know, I've all for women being ambitious and making their own money and being successful. I think that's fantastic. But I think there's this false idea that motherhood is somehow a burden or that it's unimportant. I think both sides of the political aisle make some good points and also make some fallacies and that I think say progressives will say motherhood is terrible, you know, it's a what's the term that they use? >> Domestic prostitute. >> No, that's an interesting way of putting it. It's something about what is it? The cost is basically that, you know, like you're you're going to be destitute because as a woman you have to be >> No more financial independence, you're relying on your partner. >> It's so expensive and you know, if you do focus on raising a family then you don't make money and then you put yourself in potentially abusive situations like it you know, like there's all that which I you know, can happen. >> No one wants to be a financial prison. This is what no one talks about about the low divorce rate in the past. How much of the low divorce rate was because the women had nowhere else to go. >> Yeah, yeah. So I understand that side of it. But at the same time, you know, if a woman decides to have children, she is going to be the primary caretaker. Like the way that progressives frame it is that the man can just step in and do half of the chores and whatever. No, the baby's going to prefer mom. >> The baby wants mom. Baby wants mom. >> Yeah, and then the other side is you know, cuz not all conservatives but there's a sentiment among conservatives to tell young women, "Don't worry about your education and career, just get married young, have tons of children, and worry about your career later." But, that's difficult if you have no work experience, how are you going to get a job in your field, especially nowadays, if you have no work experience, right? >> given how difficult it is to support a family on a single person income. >> too. >> So, look, I I I think that everybody that wants to have kids should be able to afford to have kids. And the fact that people can't afford to have kids off more accurately, I think feel like they can't afford to have kids, um given that the poorest countries are the ones that have got the highest birth rates. Um I think that's awful. I think it's awful that people can't afford to have kids or feel like they can't afford to have kids. But, I don't think that that's the issue. I think if you were to ask any couple, or almost any couple, especially married couple, "What's the reason that you haven't [clears throat] yet had kids?" It's not going to be that they're too expensive. The issue and most of the commentary, the commentariat that's throwing their opinions into the like me, that's throwing their opinions into the [ __ ] mess with this, are single people saying, "It's too expensive to have kids." Like, you're not in a relationship. This is like you telling me how much you'd beat some guy up that stood in the ring while you're in the stands. Like, you're not in the situation where you can talk about having kids. It it it's not what you're facing. So, I wonder how much of this, and this may be from the guy's side, too, I wonder how much of this is kids are too expensive to have is a much easier explanation than I can't find a partner to have them with. >> I yeah, I definitely think financial reasons could be a part of it, but I I do think when you're speaking of women who are getting to an age where I I my sense is some women may not be aware that their biological window is definitive. Like, you can't change it. >> Well, women's fertility drops down by half by 35. And then, you know, menopause starts into your 40s by mid-40s. So, there's you can't really negotiate with biology at that point. I mean, you can use the technology, you can try, but we all have our windows and it's, like I said, you know, sad. >> I remember reading a tweet from [ __ ] Stefan Molyneux like 6, 7 years ago. Guy like culture warring before the culture war was even a thing. He's having some pop on Taylor Swift's 30th birthday. Basically saying, "Taylor Swift turned 30 today. 90% of her eggs are gone. I wish that she'd become a mother." >> See, that type of commentary is not nice. >> It's not helping. And I I always had that in the back of my mind. Just one of these things that kind of kicked up a big furor. And it's just a it's just a [ __ ] prick thing to say. But, I did a little bit of research. The reason that 90% that 90% figure is true, but I didn't realize it's because girls lose their eggs before they hit puberty. I think 50% of your lifetime eggs are gone by the time that you become Is the word fertile? I get or like able to have kids? >> Yeah. >> Or like whatever you you your puberty comes online and 50% of them are gone. Like, that doesn't feel that 90% number, that feels like somebody's inflated the stock price or something. >> Yeah. Well, I was going to say also speaking to the fertility issues or the endocrine disruptors, a when a girl is born, she's born with all the eggs she's ever going to have. So, if her mother was exposed to something when she was in the uterus, that's going to affect her daughter and her grandchildren potentially because it's affecting the eggs of >> Three generations of people three generations of women in the same location for a brief period of time. >> Yeah. But, my my hope and what I like with your podcast is that it's very much like balanced and I really want to try and close this division between men and women because I think that's a big part of also why this is happening with men. fair share >> narrative. >> Yeah, and why they're not interested in in having sexual relationships or being close, you having that that intimacy because so much of this discourse is so polarizing and so much about blaming the opposite sex for everything that's going [clears throat] wrong, not just in terms of dating and relationships, but just >> The world. >> world. >> Yep. Yeah, I mean, instead of cooperation each sex just optimizes against the other. >> Yeah. >> It's just this evolutionary arms race, but it's been turned up to everything. It's like, yeah, okay, there is a kind of I come up with a way to to be funny or cute or attractive or whatever and after a while that strategy sort of becomes detected and then I need to demonstrate more value and more value and so on and so forth. And it's just that, but I'm not even on steroids, like in a [ __ ] different universe. >> Mhm. >> Where the humans are so tribal that we're even splitting ourselves up based on [ __ ] sex. Right? >> Yeah. >> And I don't know. I Okay, can anything be done top-down to fix this? Give me some proposed solutions. I managed to >> I was going to say with the evolutionary uh co-evolutionary arms race, so that's David Buss's theory. Um the goat. Yeah. He's a friend of mine, a mentor. >> Daddy David. >> And and it definitely shows up. It's It's amazing because once you become aware of this dynamic and how men and women are constantly trying to outcompete each other, you see it in everything. So, in terms of advice, I would say >> [gasps] >> for I'll start with women. I'd say I definitely think people should meet in real life as opposed to on apps or through social media online and whatever. So, my I and I do think men should be the ones to approach women. So, women have to make it so obvious if they're into someone. And things you can do, I have suggestions in Sex Distinction, but one big one is to smile very obviously. And if you're like me and you have resting bee face, to practice smiling in the mirror until it's not uncomfortable and not awkward, which can take some time, but it I guarantee you like if you see a man you find attractive and you smile at him, he will come and talk to you. Hopefully he will. >> Cultivate receptivity. >> Yeah, exactly because men are biologically wired to pick up on these cues. And there's a part of the brain called the medial orbital frontal cortex that lights up when someone sees an attractive face. And it lights up even more strongly when that face is smiling. So, I thought that was really fascinating because >> Your resting [ __ ] face is resting ugly face to a degree. >> Or it's like resting f off face. Yeah. Um and also things like touching your hair, touch your your face, your neck, your adjust your clothing, things like that. Men are again going to pick up on this and see this as a sign that you're interested. >> Okay. >> And so that will help to remedy I think some of the um the backlash or the difficulty after me too. And then for guys Oh, and the other thing I would say to women is so basically your options are to compete for the high status guys, right? To date someone whom you may consider if you are say very educated, successful, financially successful woman, you may feel like you're dating a guy who's less successful than you, but that's totally fine, right? My my issue is when society's telling women this is a great solution, like just have a house husband, you know, you don't need to go for these guys. You can make your own money and you can be the provider in the in the in the household and no >> Higher rates of divorce as you >> said. Yeah, higher rates of domestic violence, higher rates of male cheating when that happens. So, uh you know, not to have to say that happens for everybody, but I think just to also have a bit of compassion for men who are struggling because my sense is women we are doing very well, right? And I don't I don't think it takes anything away from women's success or women's ability to succeed by having some compassion for men who are struggling. And then I would say to guys it's probably a combination in terms of why young men are not doing as well. I think the mental health aspects, eat healthy food, that goes for women too, but there have been studies that have shown if you cut out ultra-processed food, depression will remit on its own. There's one study I remember reading it was crazy. Within 12 weeks, a third of the sample that had depression going to remission on its own. Yeah, so if you're struggling like with your mental health, or I guess I should talk to the camera when I say this, but if you're if you're struggling with your mental health, eat healthy food, go to the gym, I'm sure Chris's audience knows, work out, get sunshine, and I would also say if you can go without porn for 30 days, try and see if that helps you. You might be surprised at your motivation. >> expect that you were going to be a proponent of no fap. >> Well, I hear from so many guys that it's helped them, so I'm willing I'm willing to go there. I'm curious, let me know how it goes, okay? As a woman, tell me how it goes. >> Every single day, report in on how your no fap is going. >> With an update. One detailed notes, I want an Excel spreadsheet, yeah. >> I'm sure that that will appreciate >> [laughter] >> that will go well. Debra, you're great. I really appreciate you. Where should people go to check out everything you're doing? >> So you can get Should I talk to the camera should I tell you? >> Talk to me. >> Okay. You should get Sex Distinction, The Decline of Sex and the Future of Intimacy. You can get it on Simon & Schuster's website. You can get it everywhere you get books. You can get it at drdeborahso.com, and the audiobook is read by me, and you can get it for free on Audible. >> Sounds awesome. Um I I I think you're doing uh the goddess's work. Uh really really cool. Really really awesome stuff. I appreciate you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much for tuning in. Congratulations for making it to the end of an entire [music] episode. Uh another one that I think you'll enjoy is right here.