Why Most Trenchless Pipeline Projects Go Over Budget

Tell me [music] what you think a well-prepared owner or utility client look like going into a trenchless project, and where do you often see [music] gaps in their processes or responsiveness that create downstream risk? [music] >> So, I would say a well-prepared utility client recognizes that partnering with your trenchless contractor up front [music] on a project that that they want to complete. Uh there's been multiple times on projects that you know, an owner client tries >> [music] >> When a pipeline fails underground, the clock starts kicking. The options for fixing it [music] without tearing up roads, disturbing communities, or blowing up a project budget are far fewer than most project managers realize. What separates a smooth rehabilitation project from a costly [music] chaotic one often has nothing to do with the technology itself. It has everything to do with how prepared [music] the owner is before the first crew hits the site. Today, we're sitting down with Patrick Roberts, P.E., CCM, PMP, [music] a licensed professional engineer and senior project manager at [music] Insituform Technologies. Bringing a rare combination of field-level execution [music] and structured project management discipline to one of construction's most specialized sectors, [music] trenchless infrastructure rehabilitation. In this episode, we're going to talk about what it actually takes to manage projects in the trenchless [music] space, why financial planning and analysis belongs in every construction PM's toolkit, and [music] what owners and utility clients need to get right before a project even begins. If you manage projects, work alongside owners and utility [music] clients, or lead teams in the field, this episode is going to challenge how you think about preparation, [music] risk, and what real project controls look like underground. Before we jump in, I want to tell you about AEC PM Connect, a series of in-person events we've created at EMI for AEC project managers and the leaders [music] who develop them. If you want to stay on top of PM trends, elevate your team, and deliver stronger project [music] results, these full-day events are built for you. We're coming to Kansas City this October. Learn more and register at aecpmconnect.com. I'm your host Fiona Yeohann, and this is the AEC Project Management [music] Podcast. Let's jump right in. It's now time for our PM conversation of the week with Patrick Roberts, P.E., C C M PMP. Patrick, welcome to the AEC Project Management Podcast. >> Thank you, Fiona. It's an honor to be here and to talk project management. >> Thank you so much for coming. We appreciate your time. I was hoping you could start us with a little walk through your career path, and how did your engineering background lead you into project management within the trenchless technology space? >> Sure. So, I kind of had a winding road. Um out of college, I went into geotechnical engineering, uh where I was testing soils, cut and fills around new development uh in the Denver metro area. Uh from that opportunity, I started working in a consulting engineering firm, where I was designing utility infrastructure, whether that was water, sanitary, storm, as well as district engineering management. So, uh water, sanitation, storm districts, where it's uh daily operations, making sure everything's working correctly on a daily basis. Well, how I got in uh the long road, I guess, would be that all of these community municipalities, districts have a set financial budget. So essentially, I needed to understand how we could stretch that dollar over an annual basis. So with my natural curiosity, I started looking at uh different avenues for rehabilitation. And trenchless technology is a really good avenue for these district communities, municipalities to be able to, whether it's above ground constraints, whether it's uh like traffic disruption, you know, both automobile, pedestrian, as well as environmental regulations, and uh dealing with environmental sensitive areas, I just found that, hey, this is a a way that a municipality could essentially uh complete much more scope in their uh rehab annual budget to be able to accomplish stuff. So and that's what kind of led me from continuing to always try to find a better way and to drastically increase the rehabilitation. Um that led me to becoming a senior project manager at Infram Technologies. >> Very cool. And so, what do you think project managers in the broader construction industry understand about trenchless technology and the no-dig methods used to rehabilitate underground pipelines? And what do you think they probably don't? >> Sure. So, I guess the biggest thing that I think about that I in a broader sense most people wouldn't understand in trenchless technology is just the amount of projects that you're going to be doing on an annual basis. For example, like a project manager in construction for a large general contractor may focus on one project or a couple projects over a multiple-year time frame. In trenchless, I could be doing 10 to 12 projects a month. And it's really just that with the financial budget of the community that you're dealing with. Uh last year, I had 97 projects that I completed. Um some were one day, some uh spanned the entire year. Um but it's really related to, you know, how much budget is related to that. And you know, success in project management, I guess, revolves around proactive action. You know, so proactive actions in preparation, you know, and I have many projects in different stages, whether that's pre-construction, execution, or closeout, uh keeping the balls in the air, so to speak, and juggling those, uh making sure that you prepare and you're constantly evolving your schedule to make sure everything lines up and you have project success on all of them. >> Cool. Tell me what you think a well-prepared owner or utility client look like going into a trenchless project, and where do you often see gaps in their processes or responsiveness that create downstream risk? >> Yeah. So, I would say a well-prepared utility client um recognizes that partnering with your trenchless contractor up front on a project that that they want to complete is really will lead to project success. Uh there's been multiple times on projects that, you know, an owner client tries to use, for example, a specification for a previous project that they completed in trenchless, and they try to utilize that same specification for an upcoming project, and it may not always apply. So, when we're talking about gaps or misunderstandings or possible conflict, for example, if you're doing a gravity lining project, it's not going to be the same as a pressure lining uh specification. But, an owner, and you know, and it's not out of spite or like some reason, they're just trying to utilize the specification that may not apply, and if it's not caught during the bid time, then of course you're going to have gaps or risk where the contractor, not just us, but any trenchless contractor may find we just can't accomplish what the spec is is stating. So, that can cause that risk in really it's out of the project manager's hands a lot of cases because there's just something in the specification that just doesn't apply to what you're actually trying to accomplish. >> I think we can extrapolate that to something that's so common for project managers and that like if you are relying on something that, you know, like you mentioned, a an old bid or something that's not quite right. >> [gasps] >> And as a project manager, especially if you're brought in a little past the beginning, >> it ain't like uh there's some where I've picked up and unfortunately it's just it causes unnecessary setting of sides where, you know, everybody wants the project to be successful. You know, the contractor, the engineer, the owner, um all the stakeholders of a project, but if there's certain things that just aren't physically possible. So, that's why, you know, our parent company, Arizona Water Solutions, is always available during the pre-planning process with an owner, with an engineer, to reach out to us and say, "Hey, this is the project we're trying to accomplish, and we'll give that time free of charge that they hate. This is how we would say you, you know, this may be the type of material, this may be the type of trenchless technology that may fit in to be able to have project success. >> Strong leadership drives strong projects. Become an AECPM professional and give your team the leadership skills they need to thrive. Customize PM development, premium content, and a leadership edge that sets you apart. Learn more at aecpm.com. >> Absolutely. And I think that ties in nicely to I wanted to ask you a little bit about, you know, you mentioned stakeholders and having um, you know, historical data points to look at when you're starting a new project. How do you think standard project management frameworks like those behind the PMP or CCM credentials hold up in the trenchless environment? And where do you have to adapt or build on them? >> Sure. So, you hit on the point, you know, I'm a certified construction manager project management professional. A lot of it applied to the trenchless industry. For example, like the PMBOK waterfall method, for example, uh that's the the sequential A B, you can't start B until A is complete. That really works well in the design bid build, which we do a lot of those projects, you know. The design's completed, we bid on it, then we build it. So, it's very sequential, that works well. And like you mentioned, stakeholder coordination, both of those standard frameworks really touch on initial stakeholder buy-in, um which is very important in the trenchless. In a lot of cases, we're doing uh a lot of intricate bypasses, we're cutting off service for a period of time till whether it's resident or businesses, that really catches on very similar aspects, which it's really highlighted both in the C C M and P M P. Where I think it needs to be adapted, at least in my experience, I think of two areas. It would be contingency as well as change order management. So, in regards to contingency, how I see it is because there's a lot of unknowns with when you're underground. The contingency can change quite drastically from the normal standard contingency that are talked about in the standard framework. You know, they can be drastically different uh depending on if there's a lot of unknowns. For example, if you don't have a geotechnical engineering report in certain cases, that's going to add a much more higher contingency than what would generally be talked about in the standard frameworks. Change order management, uh um I guess why I say that that generally like the standard frameworks talk about you're going to provide the change to the owner, to the engineer, you're going to give schedule budget revisions. It's going to be reviewed by the engineer and then they're going to provide a determine a determination. So, the time period is really elongated. In trenchless, some kinds real-time world decisions are very important. So, how we get away from that in our recommendations to owners and municipalities is to put some as needed if required line items. Uh so, they have that unit pricing available. So, it's really just a discussion, a phone call, maybe an email where you're not going through every single step of the standard frameworks that they recommend. I mean, it it's there on specific cases. For example, if we have a 30-in line and we discover it's a 42-in line, that's a much larger cost. And, you know, in regards to the general change order. But, these things that want to keep a progress the progress of a project moving, um to make sure you hit deadlines, stuff like that. If you have those if required as needed possibly an allowance account, that can keep the project going much smoother. So, those are the two items where I think adaptation in the trenchless area is a bigger benefit than those general standard frameworks. >> Yeah, I think you hit on what a lot of us hit up against all the standard frameworks is like, they're a great framework, but you got to build some buffer in there or some wiggle room for, you know, every project and every industry's going to have different things that come up. So, where do I How can I build this so we can stay on track, but also have a little bit of wiggle room because, like you said, if it's an allowance that I can use without needing a ton of approvals, that is much easier than, you know, now I need a whole change order and it's going to take 3 days. >> Correct. And and like, don't get me wrong, the guardrails that these standard frameworks set up are very good, you know, they're tried true methods that through experience, they're good. Maybe a little bit of adaptation needs to occur depending on each project cuz each project's going to be different as well. Each owner's going to be different. You know, and I I always kind of go back to communication. Like, what's the avenue of communication that works best for a subcontractor, an owner, an engineer? Some people want to just talk by text. Some people like teams, you know, like so to find that right avenue um is critically important. And I'll be honest, I know it sounds kind of odd, but like emotional intelligence and understanding uh the crowd that you're dealing with instead of saying, I like it my way, I'm going to do it my way. I don't think that that really equates to project management success. >> Absolutely. I think you're hitting upon what what comes up a lot for us in these episodes and um the project management development we do is um that people are a huge part of project management, right? So, these frameworks and strategies are amazing for all the tasks you need to get done, but you also have to get people through those tasks. And you you can't do it without the emotional intelligence and without, you know, like say- saying, okay, how does this person like to communicate? You we can't get away from it as project managers. It's absolutely essential. It's that that piece that's not in the framework that you need to pay attention to. >> Exactly. >> And so, uh this is a bit of a turn, but something I find interesting that you mentioned earlier, financial planning and analysis isn't a term that most people associate with field project management. So, so why do you see it as an as essential to strong project management outcomes in construction? >> Yeah, like our company specifically, but I think for field management in general, we take it very seriously cuz it connects the overall company's mission that you're with and it kind of aligns it with the regional and local levels. I understand the objective of what we're trying to accomplish on the monthly or quarterly basis. Why I think it's important is capital capital optimization, which essentially allows you to get materials when you need it. Uh so, you don't have financial bottlenecks on your projects. I think kind of understanding where your costs are coming from, where your billings are going to, and understanding that on the field project management level is very critical for overall success. I think the other thing that I I when I think of FP&A would be to understand the operation and performance. We kind of touched on it earlier. Through multiple indicators, through finances, you can understand, hey, do we need to revise some of our estimating processes? Through the metrics, you know, how is our labor production? How is our equipment utilization? Um so, we can refine that process for better results. But, that's why I think, you know, bringing it back to a regional local level, um even, you know, I have conversations with even our crew members who are actually doing stuff, like, hey, these are the results, guys. Um so, they, you know, have investment in what we're trying to accomplish as a company. >> I like that that investment piece and driving the mission is so critical. And I think we often get locked into our tasks. We sometimes forget to go back to >> We go on cruise control. >> We sure do. It's easier, you know? >> [laughter] >> It is. It is. >> it's really important and I I do this with my team often when they bring up something new, I say, how does that bring us back to our main mission, right? Like, when it feels like, you know, there and it feels important then I'm I'm not even against it. I'm like, I yes, and how does it get us back to our main goal here? If it's doing that, then I'm probably all for it. >> And I think it it increases buy-in. You know, we always talk buy-in and the idea of inclusion and feeling like you're a part of something. If I would kind of have to stand the saying, "Hey, this is above your level." I don't think I'm connecting and it goes back to connecting with others and understanding of the shared mission that hey, I, you know, I don't like the idea of cog in in the machine, but we're all pieces of the success and if I'm not sharing with you and openly communicating with you, am I doing you a disservice in in my opinion? I believe I am, you know, because we're all trying to get to the same goal together and that's part of being a a team. >> Yeah. Absolutely. So, along those lines, what are the unique budget and schedule pressures that come with underground rehabilitation work specifically? And how are you building controls that help hold up when the unexpected things happen below surface? >> Sure. So, I think this happens throughout all construction, but specifically for trenchless technologies, uh the budget pressures are related to the resins that we use. You know, most of the resins are oil-based. I think everyone's kind of aware of the volatility uh related to oil if you're filling your your car up with gas. So, you know, it can be tough to estimate that for a project that you may not be completing for month multiple months. Um so, if contracts are signed in in month X and it's six month that you're actually installing the product the product, that's kind of I wouldn't say a gamble, but it's the idea of weighing and it goes back to the contingency discussion we were discussing. Like, hey, where is it going to go? So, scheduling pressures, I think this is with any project manager in construction, it's the critical path and understanding, you know, like I had talked about how many projects I have, um fitting all the pieces together and contract timeline. So, a majority of our projects, they you need to be done by June 30th, for example. So, um if there's any delay on a project, you need a permit, you know, something is not prepared, a pipe's not prepared or cleaned. Well, all of a sudden you have a cascading effect for all the downstream projects. Well, you may have a project and it happened many times in my career, a there's a set deadline, whether we're in the general position or we're in the subcontractor position, that you have to push pause on a project that you may have a week-longer contract timeline and go complete a project that can't move at all. Um so, those are the scheduling pressures and I think that that's very similar to all project managers in construction, where you have critical path items that you're going to have to complete and you may have some float on other projects that you're allowed to float those, but then you're going to have a drop dead and all the on that becomes the critical path of your project. How do we fix this? Well, up front planning, setting priorities. You know, we have weekly meetings, but to be honest with you, you know, we're doing this daily as well. Like, I may get a call from one of my direct reports saying, "Hey, this has been delayed. We may need to switch gears at 2:00 p.m. for what we're doing tomorrow at 8:00 a.m. Um so it's bound to happen. It's not always the funnest part of project management, I think. But it keeps you on your toes, it keeps you thinking. And I'm one of those people like to be curious, to never be satisfied with how you accomplish stuff. That's why I really enjoy the company I work at is that we're a solutions provider. So the idea trying to fit a square in a circle may not always be the best way to go about something. Are we thinking about solutions for our customers, whether it's material or services that they feel they're getting what they invested in. Um so I guess that's the big thing is that and we already kind of touched on communication and I know we're communicating right now, but I think that sum up my big concerns that I really highlight with the people that work with me is that communication there's nothing wrong with over communication. People can tell you I don't >> Tone it down. >> don't want to hear from you again, but I would say, you know, if they say I didn't know about that that's our issue, that's not their issue, you know. >> that you said that. >> No. >> Whenever anybody says to me I didn't know, my immediate response is, oh no, then I did not clearly communicate that to every one of my stakeholders in a way that they would receive it because it is never If you're managing a project, unfortunately, it is never their fault if they didn't know. >> And another thing I guess I would touch on is document, document, document. You know, I tell people all the time, it's fine to have a verbal conversation. I it's kind of going by the way of the dodo right now, but it's fine to be able to reach out to someone, but then follow up with an email saying what we discussed. >> Correct. I mean, because you want the trail to say, "No." Because then you get into a hearsay issue if it possibly they didn't understand what you were saying. They may have been in the middle of something else, you know, like you don't know where that other person was. >> Yeah. >> This may remind them if you send it, you know, a couple hours later just saying, "Hey." So, you can check that box off on on the item. >> Right, and they can even say, "Actually, I misunderstood that, and that's not what I thought we were doing." And they can right then and there correct the action. >> Correct. And then if there's conflict right there, it can be addressed instead of it could go for a week, 10 days where we think something, they're thinking something, and the critical path is now critical. >> Yeah. You mentioned something earlier that I really liked that I don't think we talk about enough is when you have multiple projects and you that's when that critical path and that float like that is essential when you're looking at your own project, your one project, right? You need to know about it. But when you're managing multiple projects, you need to know where the float is in all of them because you need to know what can be put down for a day so that this fire can be put out effectively, right? And I I think about that all the time, but I think you put it in really good words there. So, I wanted to re-highlight that because I think a lot of people um you know, we there's a lot of project managers out there who have one or two big projects, and there's some like you that are managing a What did you say? 60, 90 something in a year? >> I did 97 last year. Yeah, so it's about >> It's about eight to 10, you know, because some are right at their end of life, so to speak. Some are just starting. And they're all indifferent. So, I don't know. Like the biggest thing that I always think about is the equipment breakdown. Because as a contractor, it's bound to happen. What is our fail safe? Hey, we have 4 days left in this project, a piece of equipment breaks down. >> Can we get a rental? >> Yeah, those kind of things, you know, and and it's just it's part of construction, you know, like you can't say, "Oh, we're never going to have to do uh equipment rentals. We're never going to have equipment problems." It's just part of construction, you know. >> I don't even need to be fully in construction to know that. I can tell you that for us being a homeowner. You go to do your 5-minute project and your equipment is broken and this has turned into a 4-hour project. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Um yeah, no, I think that's really important. I I love that you brought that up and I think it's another reason to really push why it's so important to know your critical path because I I think it's often an easy thing to be like, "Oh, that's a lot of work and I don't want to think about it that hard." And eventually, when you're in something long enough, you kind of just know where it is. But in order to teach someone new, you have to really sit down and be like, "This is what a critical path looks like and here's how it breaks down and here's why it matters." Because one day you won't be there and they need to make those decisions without you. >> Well, and and I think that's, you know, we're talking about project management, but part of the specific place that I'm at now is bringing up the younger generation and explaining to them that, "Hey, it's okay to make mistakes. Some of your lessons learned as project manager, hopefully they're not costly, but you're going to get lessons learned and the biggest thing that you should learn from it is, 'Hey, I'm alway always going to make mistakes. Don't make the same mistake.' You know, so um you know, infallible is just not going to happen. I still make mistakes every day. You know, I I know it's surprising news, Vianna. But I try not to make the same mistake. Um so I always really try to highlight that with the people that work with me and my direct reports is that it's okay to make a mistake. Let's not continue to make the same mistake. >> I love that. I want to close this out with a question I like to ask everybody. And it's revolves around um project management and outcomes. So what do you think if firm leaders listening today can improve just one thing to strengthen project outcomes, where should they start? >> I'd really I get that kind of a two-parter cuz I like this question a bunch. Um I would first focus on education. Like specifically in my own, I've been doing a lot of capabilities presentations as well as week of learnings to educate um municipalities, uh utility owners, engineers about the capabilities in trenchless. If we don't provide the information to people out there, how can we expect them to decide on trenchless if they don't know what's available? And I guess you know, why I say it's kind of a two-parter is what kind of you know, build into that is patience with the process. With any firm leader, you know, a lot of firm leader, everyone that's in project management, if you're in a senior level, really wherever you are, you're going to have initiative directives that you want immediate results from. You know, and it's difficult because you know, you're blending personalities, you're blending cultures, you're blending firms in a lot of cases and that are coming from different aspects and to not think that you're going to have growing pains, to understand how to work together and stuff like that, to realize that overall growth that you initially thought with your initiatives and directives, I think it's a bit short-sighted and the it's not logical to me. I think that, you know, long-term growth uh if you want to get to be, you know, sometimes that's not always the straight line in life. So, being able to do that and using patience with the process and the education aspect, I think are are really cuz after all, we're in construction, you know, Fiona. You know, and I guess on that, uh do you want to uh hear a joke? >> Uh absolutely. I want to hear a joke. >> Okay. >> [laughter] >> Would you like to hear my construction joke? >> Yes. >> We're still working on it. >> Oh, that's a good one. Then my husband's going to love that one. >> Well, sorry. Like, I was I was telling my girlfriend, uh you know, most of my jokes aren't family-friendly, so but I enjoy that one just because I I usually say, "Sorry, we're still working on it." But uh you know, [laughter] because anybody that's driving home or anything like that, you were going to most likely run into construction, you know. >> Yeah, that's true. >> Uh we're still working on it, you [laughter] know. >> I will love it. On that note, thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate your time and the knowledge you shared, and I really hope we cross paths again soon. >> It'll be great. I really appreciate your time, Fiona. Uh thanks everyone for uh you know, letting me attend and uh share the project management experience I've had. >> Awesome. Thanks. Have a great one. Please remember you can find the show notes for this episode at aecpmppodcast.com. There you'll find a summary of the [music] key points discussed in today's episode as well as any links to any other resources, websites, or books mentioned during this episode. Until next [music] time, I wish you the best in all of your engineering project management endeavors.