Why Most PMOs Fail and How The Best Ones Drive Results

So when you look [music] at PMOs across the AEC industry, what would you say are some of the most common reasons that they fail to deliver that real value that they're intended to deliver? [music] >> One of the biggest reasons they fail is they become more compliance organizations instead of bringing value to the organizations. A lot of PMOs and [music] firms are viewed as compliance group or the template group or the check the box [music] group or even worse you know more policing everything. You know once you do that the fans [music] start to become disengaged. I think you know the lung sticks. >> Most PMOs are created to bring structure and consistency to [music] project delivery, but many never actually deliver the value that they were intended to. So what's going wrong and why do so many PMOs end up [music] being seen as administrative overhead instead of true strategic drivers? In today's episode, I'm joined by Jason Dunn, senior vice president, PMO, chief risk [music] officer at BRPH. Jason brings a unique perspective at the intersection of project execution and risk. And we'll be talking about why PMOs fail and how to position them for real [music] impact, how to balance standardization with flexibility in project delivery, and how to use data and forecasting to directly improve profitability. If you're looking to strengthen your [music] project outcomes, build more effective systems, and ensure that your PMO actually drives results, not just process, this conversation will give you practical insights that you can start applying [music] right away. Now, before I jump in with Jason, I do want to tell you about AEC PM Connect, a series of in-person events that we've created at EMI for AEC project managers and the leaders who develop them. If you want to stay on top of PM trends, elevate your team, and deliver stronger project results, these fullday events are built for you. We're coming to Kansas City this October. Learn more and register at apmconnect.com. I'm your host, Anthony Fisano, and this is the AEC Project Management Podcast. Let's jump in. All right. Now, I'd like to welcome our guest on to the show for today. Jason Dunn is a licensed professional engineer, PMP, a senior VP and PMO, as well as chief risk officer at BRPH. So, very involved in project management. And Jason, I want to welcome you to the AECPM podcast. >> Thanks for having me. I think this is the second time I've joined you. So, always always great to be back with you, Anthony. Thank you. That's right. And we appreciate people that come back for more punishment. [laughter] >> No problem. >> No, but we're we're excited to have you. And Jason, for those listeners that aren't familiar with your organization, BRPH, maybe you could just give us a little overview of the company. >> Yeah. So, we're a fullervice architecture, engineering, and construction firm. We are a full AEC firm based in in Melbourne, Florida. So, we started out uh over 60 years ago. First client was NASA. We still work for NASA today, but that's expanded beyond to other aerospace clients as well as to other market sectors. We work in the education world, hospitality, aerospace, as I mentioned, manufacturing and entertainment. So, those are kind of the market sectors as well. Uh we are a fullervice firm. So, we do have architecture, but all the other internal disciplines as well. Uh that's that's kind of a good differentiator for us because we like to do the whole project if we can. uh if that makes sense. And many times uh many of our projects go on into construction to where we're just offering construction as an extension of service for our clients. And and a lot of the clients like that. >> Interesting. You you may be one of the first guests that truly has a company that does architecture, engineering, and construction on the AECpm podcast. So >> that that may be a milestone here for us. But but that's great. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about your career journey and your background and kind of what led you to this role you know uh as the PMO. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh started my my technical training is civil engineering. So I as you mentioned I am a licensed PE and got my PMP as well. uh so started doing doing that and you know as civils which I always say civils do make good project managers I think because they really touch all the disciplines when they're working on the project side of things but a lot of the upfront work dealing with agencies with clients up front really lends civil engineers to be pretty good PMS if they can communicate which we always look for that too so I did that for many years working for many facets of civil you know site development I work in hydrarology, hydraulics, all kinds of different things. I got exposed to a lot of different types of clients, types of work. Um, and it became apparent I was pretty good at dealing with clients and then managing the overall project. So, I got more into that. So, I kind of moved from more technical into more of a manager spot um from a PMP standpoint. And then I did spend some time working with an an owner's rep construction management firm where I was actually starting to develop PM skills for an entire project. So not just design but also construction and being that owner's advocate uh which really that's really where I learned a lot of the PM skills because I was exposed to all the all the facets of a project and then uh that led me to BRPH and they first hired me in as director of project management. So we're a little different too. I know we're a full AEC firm, but we also treat project management as its own internal discipline. So much like structural, architectural, civil, we treat the PMs as its own discipline and that each discipline has a leader. So I was brought in to be that leader of the PM team and help develop standards and and and know organizational templates and correct processes to where we had some consistency across how we deliver projects. Then as we grew and and scaled up and really started to implement construction into our business, which we've had for, you know, over 20 years, but it's really ramped up, I'd say, the last seven years or so to where it's a very valuable piece of our business. In fact, we're it's a it's an equal revenue stream or even more so from design. So, it really, you know, we really needed to have a proper PMO structure in place. I've been doing that since 2022 um for BRPH and then with project management becomes you know risk management is also an integral part of that. So it was made sense for me to be the overall enterprisewide chief risk officer. So it kind of plays with the the PMO role uh from from that standpoint too. >> Interesting. Very interesting. And I'm excited to get to talk to Jason because we do Jason a lot of work with AEC organizations to help them, you know, build out their PM development programs, maybe think about their their PM ecosystems and the PMO always seems to be a sticking point sometimes for people to be able to really establish something that works. So when you look at PMOs across the AEC industry, what would you say are some of the most common reasons that they fail to deliver that real value that they're intended to deliver? >> Yeah, that that's a good one. and and some of them do you know I think one of the biggest reasons they fail is they become more compliance organizations instead of bringing value to the organization so a lot of a lot of PMOs and firms are viewed as as the compliance group or the template group or the check the box group or even worse you know more policing everything so right >> you know once you do that the pins start to become disengaged so I think you know the ones that struggle are focusing heavy on process and not enough on the business outcomes. So I think if you can get past that and get to more how do we improve project delivery, you know, how do we increase strong financial performance, improve client experience, I think that goes into it rather than just compliance. So and a lot of PMOs become disconnected from the true operations. You know, they're not helping with quality or business strategy and and when you don't do that, you lose some relevance. So I think the ones that are getting it right look at more operational intelligence across the organization. How you know how do we do proper forecasting that goes into a lot of it predictability as well as training and leadership development in the PM teams. >> All right. Well, that sets me up perfectly for another question, which is >> yeah, >> you know, what does it look like to position a PMO so it is seen as more of a strategic partner rather than kind of an administrative or this policing function like you suggest that people are like, oh no, hide the PMO is coming, you know. [laughter] >> Yeah. And it can be like that, >> you know. You got to get away from making it like an administrative burden for the groups, you know. You got to think, you know, I think and and I asked this, the strategic PMO is going to ask questions like, how are we going to improve project predictability? How do we reduce delivery risk? And how do we help our PMs make better business decision? Not just managing scope and schedule, but learning more about the business side of things. And then taking those things that you learn and scale it across the full enterprise. I think that that's the ones that are succeeding. So, um, you know what we what we do a little bit differently here? Well, well, you know, some of the things that are that are very valuable that I think we implement here at BRPH, uh, we do very well at forecasting, uh, when it comes to revenue forecasting, when it comes to staffing forecasting, we do a lot of future planning on projects to make sure we get the staff mix right. Uh, we perform consistent project health reviews to where we're looking at those sort of things as well as the risks that are popping up. And we actually do perform lessons learned on projects but those are meaningless unless you take those forward on into use for future projects and a lot of firms don't do that um as well. So you gota you know the PMO's got to speak the language of the business outcomes and also be connected uh I think it's important that the PMO is connected to the executive team because uh that's the executive team cares about those kind of things profitability client retention you know growth capacity all those sort of things. So you gota you got to have two two hats dealing with the exec team as well as the project management team itself and I think you know another thing I want to bring up that we're seeing more and more getting into the future of PMO and we're already getting to that now it's heavily tied to data and analytics you know I think the PMO one of their primary functions should be to to manage the business intelligent functions of the organization um and that means you know using data project data capturing that and using that for business decisions as well as how does perhaps AI play into that? I don't know if you're aware, but PMI is actually changing the PMP exam this summer to implement some AI portions and strategies about how AI is going to play into project management. So, that's that's pretty interesting. I read an article on that yesterday. So, >> that is interesting. Yeah, I did I wasn't aware of that. That's very interesting. And, >> you know, you just gave us a lot of good information in that answer. We could probably spend an hour unpacking it, but but one thing I will I do want to just highlight from what Jason said because we see this a lot companies to me there's really nothing more valuable than doing a very solid lessons learned at the end of a project. But the worst part about it is if you can't share that knowledge across your organization. >> Yeah. >> You're not reaping the benefits of that lessons learned process. Right. someone in Orlando could learn something from someone in New Jersey that just finished a project in the same company, right? And unless there's pathways for that information. So, I just wanted to kind of have a followup on that is like how do you how do you try to share that knowledge across your organization? >> So, you know, it depends on the the type of project like you said. If it's a project that's um had issues, we'll do that. But we always want to also focus on the good things that happen on projects, too. we want to carry this forward as well. So when we do a lessons learned, we we focus on the things we can improve, but also what do we get right? And you got you got to communicate that out to the team. So we'll try to do that at the business unit level uh where it's indicative of that business's book of business. You know, if it's aerospace, we'll take those lessons learned and transmit those out or communicate those out to the aerospace team to make sure they are learning from that. And particularly with the projects we are performing construction, we want to make sure we do that as well. [music] >> Strong project outcomes need skilled managers and competent leaders. EMI's [music] corporate training delivers expert-led courses in project management and people leadership, plus industry recognized certification [music] and exclusive premium content to take your team even further. Elevate your team's leadership capabilities [music] today. Visit engineeringmanagementinstitute.org and click on corporate training. That's great. And I think tools like AI or that utilize AI can be good tools eventually that we can start to use. Well, a lot of companies already using them, right, to parse some of this information and make sure it's getting to the right location which can help us to streamline things. >> Yep. Exactly. >> That's that's a big deal. All right. So the next thing I want to talk about which is kind of we're going along the same line here is you know one of the things that we've experienced in working with companies on some of their PM development work is you know people are interested in tools and templates that can make drive consistency across their organization >> and I'm I'm curious as to how you might strike the right balance between standardization right tools and templates and processes but also giving project teams the flexibility that they need to execute effectively knowing that every project is different. Every client is different. What's your philosophy around that? >> So, we we do have those in place. I mean, those are those are vital for PMS to to use. Pull templates off our internet and use those because it saves time. You don't want them recreating action item lists from scratch, you know, for an example. So, we do have those in place. So, but but the thing is, you know, you want to standardize those things, but you don't want to overstandardize because that can be just as damaging as no standards at all. You have too much bureaucracy and standardization. So you want to, you know, there are things you want consistency about. You want financial controls to be consistent, risk management to be consistent, your quality expectations, how you communicate, all those things need to be consistent. But you have to realize and respect that every project, every client, even market sectors are different. So the PMO's got to be successful in setting those guard rails, but not too much bureaucracy. So you got to give your senior folks the flexibility and empower them to work to use judgment, you know, in those in those guard rails. So it's kind of a it's a balance, but if you can do that, it works pretty well. >> Yeah, it's like everything in life, right? You got to balance things out the right way. And >> and I agree. I mean, I think having the consistency of the tools and templates is important. It makes it easier. Like you said, it could help to save time. can also breed a level of consistency across your projects which is important of course quality risk >> but to your point they have to be able to flex because there are clients that have different client requirements right there municipalities you know that have different requirements so >> I think that that's a good approach and a good message to your PMs to send is that listen we want to support you and give you structures and guide rails but we also know that you're going to need a little bit of flexibility in what you do >> yep and like I said you got empower them to make those choices. Uh we can't be too bureaucratic. And you're exactly right. I mean, we we have a quite a range of clients that are all different, have their own standards. So, you got to take that into account as well, >> right? Like we see it all the time in some of the companies we work with where, >> you know, they might use Microsoft Project, but an agency requires them to submit their schedule in a different software, right? So, they got to have those couple of people that know how to use that software and they have to have that. So that's just a small example, but that's those are things that we need to be aware of. >> Yep. >> So Jason, in practical terms, how can a PMO kind of function as a training and leadership development engine within an organization? I know that's certainly an aspect of it. >> It is. You know, I think that's I think that's one of the probably most underutilized opportunities for PMOs in in our industry >> is that training and leadership. And I think, you know, a lot of firms just treat European team as something that they pick up over time and and and some of that's probably true, but you know, technical expertise alone is not going to automatically create strong PMS. So, you know, the PMO I think as a primary leadership function, leadership development function should implement things like a training program, which we we do. We have an annual PM training class that I lead every year for the new >> PMs that come into BRPH. >> And most of them are we're working with PMs at other places, but that's really geared for learning our processes as well as talking about the the organization and how we do our specific items like how we do financials. So I think that's very valuable. We also implement not just technical items in there, but you know communication, business acument, that kind of thing into the training. So it's it's well-rounded. We also are very intentional about educating our PMs on financial performance and our structure. You know, that's that's a very important part of the of the of being a PM >> is your financial responsibility and risk management coaching. Uh we me being the risk manager, that's that's kind of ingrained into how we uh manage projects at every level, even from the beginning. I mean I think we we really push uh identifying your risk early even at the opportunity stage where it makes sense. So that's that's important too and just you know proper communication leadership development and I mentioned business acumen. We we really we actually had formal training on business acumen last year for for senior leadership and project managers and project execs. And it was really more for you know identifying what the client's really asking for. And so something we do here at BRPH, we really uh teach our PMs, you got to understand your client's business. You know, a lot of our clients are in the business of just building buildings. They have, you know, they have something they're manufacturing or something they're producing. So, you got to understand what that is. It's not just building a building for them. >> So, I think that's important, too. >> Yeah, that's great. And I really like that you have like an onboarding process to train the new PMs there because >> we see a lot when companies hiring all these PMs from different companies. They're all used to I mean listen I know project management is the five process groups globally but but nonetheless there are little habits and processes and different things that each company does differently. So having that onboarding to show them kind of the br way I think is probably >> a really good foundation for them right to ground them in your processes so that they can kind of get integrated more more effectively. >> Absolutely. And you know and all those things I just mentioned too wanted to make this point you know if I can identify those things what that's going to do for me as the PMO is help uh identify which PMs are consistently performing and which ones are not. what are those behaviors that they're exhibiting that that it leads to strong outcomes and and where do we struggle operationally because that if I can understand those sort of things it's going to help me have more targeted coaching and development for the team. So that I think that's important too. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think that's great. And let's talk a little bit more about risk because you mentioned it there and I know that's a big part of what you do there. What are some effective ways to integrate risk management into day-to-day project delivery instead of treating it kind of as a separate or reactive process which a lot of PMs do? >> Yeah. Oh yeah, of course. So like I said, we are intentional about risk management. Um me being PMO and chief risk officer, it's part of the part of the role. So and if you think about it, project management is basically managing risk and that's what you're doing as a PM. So you know you know you're every decision is built around the scope. What are we doing? What are we not doing? Is our staffing correct? Are we communicating properly with that client? What's the correct contract language we've agreed to or or should we not agree to? And just basic client management. All those have inherent risk that you got to manage. So uh we we try to build that into the everyday delivery. Um, we we we implement things like, you know, at your at your weekly team meeting with with your team, your design team, if you're a PM running that, you know, we want them to have a risk management agenda item to where you're talking about what are the risks with the whole team, not just at the PM level, but the designers even know what are the risks that they got to be thinking about. What are those early uh what are those early project planning assessments we need to do? You know, will this project is the is the budget concerned or is it schedule? And if it's schedule, what are those long lead items we got to think about and really hit to design early to hit those to make the schedule, those kind of things. And we're very intentional about go no-go decisions. Uh here we have a pretty pretty good process in place that we all the more importance to use when you're really busy like we are right now to to to actually think about those is it you know is this something we need to are we going to be able to execute if we win or do we need to pass on this for certain reasons. So we we implement that and and we also are pretty good you know we we brought on a general counsel uh maybe six seven years ago internal that helps us a lot with the contract reviews contract language and that's really been a a big tool and a help for our PMS too to kind of identify languages we don't want to accept or maybe ways to figure out how to navigate through that or if we need him to help us negotiate that's that's in place too. So that's that's part of our risk management group as well. That's great. I think that's great. I think that I think you really do need to make risk management a part of your PM culture, which it sounds like you've done. Obviously, it's helpful that you have those two roles yourself, which is great. >> Y >> because I think what happens a lot, like I said in the question, is it is very reactive thing for project managers, right? We don't always think about it going into our project, especially if our organization isn't kind of pushing that, >> right? And then it becomes a risk response in the moment and you're just being reactive and you're hoping you can kind of mitigate it or or throw together a plan or call call up Jason and say, "Jason, help me. I just something happened on my project." >> You know, that still happens. But no, we try to eliminate that like you said, not be reactive, but be predictive and and proactive. Absolutely. Yeah. >> Right. Because it's going to happen. Things are going to happen. We know that going in, but you can just be better prepared for it, which is great. So Jason, how can firms kind of use data from the PMO such as forecasting and performance metrics to improve, you know, your profitability and financial outcomes? >> Yep, that's a good one. And it's becoming more and more apparent, you know, AI has a function of that. But, you know, I think that's where if you structure it correctly, the PMO can create enormous value. So, you know, a lot of firms collect data. We we've been collecting data for a while but if you don't use it effectively then it's there's waste that what I mean by that take that data and turn that into decision making intelligence you know use data an example would be look at the past history of this client or project or or portfolio and and say we have we performed here do we need to think about one increasing our fees or or maybe even part ways with this client those sort of things I mean that's where you can use data for that but we we collect a lot data. We actually use a platform called PowerBI that pulls our data out of our ERP system and and we can organize it the way we want and then help us predict things. So we use that for forecasting resources and looking at shortages. We can identify kind of those margin erosion trends that we see coming. Um it helps detect project health issues a little bit sooner and we can compare very easily performance across the project types and business units with all that data. So it really helps us looking you know we try to look forward with that to get to where we're not being reactive but being predictive and proactive. So I think the the PMOs and the firms are going to win in the next decade or implementing that with AI that uses that data strategically not just for reporting but for improving execution and business performance. I mean I think that's that's going to be vital for these firms to use that data that way. >> Yeah for sure. And I think and we use PowerBI here as well. I think it's great at being able to take that data and put it into some graphs and other images that can really tell a story if you will from the data which >> you know wasn't always easy to do as quickly now that we have some of these tools which is which is really invaluable for firm leaders quite frankly >> and I think that you know what we've done we implemented our powerbs system maybe three years ago which was which started under the PMO and it's gradually evolved as we started using it and now you know now it's a daily function with just about everybody in our firm There's there's pieces that we've built and organized and implemented and improved based upon, you know, using it and and how we want to use it. So, it's a it's a daily function to where you can get to a piece of data in a matter of seconds, you know, by clicking the right filters is is pretty amazing. It's really changed a lot in our in our culture here. >> Yeah, it's one of those things you take the time to invest in it and setting it up the right way, it can pay a lot of dividends long term. >> Yeah, absolutely. [snorts] So Jason, as firms grow and they kind of expand their services, you know, how can they still scale their PMO to kind of grow with the organization but still support, you know, that seller doer model >> where the technical leaders are also responsible for business development? How can the PMO scale effectively? >> Yeah, that's a good one. And we we do adhere to that model. Our our PMs are seller doers. they have a selling function um because you know they're the ones that are the front line with the client. So they're talking to them building the relationships with the client. So part of their role is to talk to the client and you know ask them what's the next project, what's our next phase, what service do you need that maybe we're not providing. So that's those kind of PMs are are incredibly valuable. So a lot of times they get overloaded more with the day-to-day and technical and they get overloaded with the doing part. So what what you got to do as a PMO and I try to focus on this a lot is uh spend more time with them on strategic client engagement uh items to to to learn and less administrative. So, you know, and it goes back to kind of the data having better project visibility, stronger forecasting, you know, clear operational support from PM uh like improved B improved resource planning and more simplified reporting. That's going to help a lot of those administrative items to where they can focus on more strategic items like client development. Talking about, you know, those next phases of work, actually doing the selling part as well. So again, it's kind of like a balance between standardization and too much rigidity. So try to get away from that. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think the one example you gave there is resourcing is absolutely critical. I mean, we work with so many companies and the number one pitfall or challenge for them is always trying to resource effectively across their projects, their discipline, their offices. >> I mean, geez, we could do a five episode series on resourcing and probably not figure it out at the end of it. But >> that's tough. That's a tough one to figure out. Yeah. >> Yeah. [laughter] I don't know if there's an answer yet. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's tough and it's not exact. It's kind of a a science and you're not going to get 100% there. You're going to get the best 80% maybe. So, >> Right. >> Yeah. >> But but again, but it is one of those things that if you can resource effectively, it's a major advantage because >> it is >> you can reallocate right staff in the right locations. you can figure out like you were saying with the go no-go if we need to cut back on this type of work because we're just overloaded in that area, right? >> Um you know the other thing that really helps because we've we've become intentional with proper resource planning uh the last five years I'd say too where we plan out every single project even down to the person. So and we want those practice leaders planning those out and putting the right staff in place. But what it's also done because of our BI system has given those team members like the designers, the CAD designers, whoever visibility of what they're supposed to be doing because they can see all their planned hours ahead of today and they'll know exactly what they're supposed to do and how much time they have planned and if it's going to deviate, they've got a basis to to talk to their practice leader to say, "Hey, maybe this wasn't planned correctly or this has changed. You know, this might be a change." So that visibility has really helped the team members, you know, the floor team members see that as well. It's become valuable. >> That's great. I love that. I love that interaction. That's awesome. >> All right. Last question I have for you for those firm leaders that are listening and, you know, maybe they haven't spent as much time as they would have liked to on their project management development or their tools and templates and processes >> and they want to really strengthen their project management, their project delivery. Where can they start? What is one thing you think that they can do to start to look at kind of assess their project delivery and their project management practices? >> Yeah, going back a little bit to the consistency u I'll say operational consistency but not not being too rigid. You got to have guard like I said the guardrails but have flexibility to where you can operate in that without feeling too burdensome. So I also mentioned earlier you know projects don't fail because of lack of technical knowledge. They really fail for poor communication or planning and staffing. uh improper education on financial management, teaching PMs to engage with clients, you know, more business uh business acumen training, client management training. So those we focused on those and it's really really helped us uh move ahead, get to the next level. So you know, if you can if you're PMO, if you're a PMO and you can reduce that big governance factor and policing and reporting factor and focus on more of the business side of things, I think that helps. Um, and you know, I think the future of PMO is going to be more of a leadership platform, not a compliance agent. It's going to be, you know, how do we use data to deliver intelligence correctly to the right folks and how do we integrate quality and risk from day one, being more of a datadriven operation partner for the PMs and and connecting that with leadership as well to where you're all seeing the same thing. So that I mean it's really more enterprise performance uh platform rather than just compliance and and templates and policing. That's that's what I think. >> I think that's great and I think it's great that kind of a running thread a bit today of our conversation has been the whole idea of reducing governance. >> Yeah. Because I do think that that has been something that has scared people away from building a PMO or looking at having some kind of PM center of excellence or something like that depending on the size of their organizations because >> they're afraid that it's just going to be, you know, just policing and, you know, being on top and smothering PMs. But obviously I think our conversation today has really shed some light on the fact that it can be a very supportive group, a supportive uh faction of your company that can really be there to support the PMs in their development and can be flexible around those things, but can make sure that you do have that consistency in your quality. You're bringing lessons learned to the table. You're helping people think about risks and you're really helping people to be more successful in their projects and you're not trying to stifle them in any way or give them more work to do, if you will. >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, the other thing I've tried to implement too is use the the open door policy. I want the PMs to to know they can if they're having a problem and can't figure something out, reach out to me. Uh I always say that when we have our monthly meetings. Um you're having a problem with a client or don't know how to uh set this project up correctly or phase it, you know, reach out to me. So, you got to have that uh openness and and and willing to help as well other than just thinking they're going to get reprimanded. So you you got to you got to have that mentality as well. I think that's very helpful. [snorts] >> Yeah, I agree with that. And I think in that capacity as well, the PMO also serves as that avenue of communication, right, between the different PMs because if someone is asking you something, then again, like we talked about with lessons learned, you can turn around and either create something as a fix for the entire company or at least communicate it to the other PMs as well, >> right? Or or if it's targeted to just that business unit, you do do it in that business unit setting as well. Yeah, >> absolutely. >> All right. Well, once again, he is Jason Dunn. He's senior vice president, PMO, and chief risk officer at BRPH. Jason, thank you so much for spending some time with us here on the AECPM podcast and really bringing some great insights around a PMO and how it can be helpful to an AEC firm to the table. We really appreciate it. >> Yeah, thank you. My pleasure. Always always enjoy talking to you. >> I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jason. He is really good at what he does and I'm so excited that he shared some of the different ways that PMOs can truly support [music] project managers in their organizations. If you enjoyed the interview, please subscribe to our channel here. We put out videos like this on a weekly basis to help engineers become better project managers and leaders. I'll see you next week.