Why Most Infrastructure Leaders Fail And How to Win

The I 10 Santa Monica vioduct caught fire in November [music] 2023. You helped to lead the consultant materials investigation team and supporting [music] CALR in the emergency response. Can you talk a little bit about the situation, [music] kind of what happened and what were some of the leadership principles that kind of guided you through that kind of a high urgency situation? >> You got to have clear lanes that everyone is operating in in an emergency. The fastest way to make things worse is [music] if you have confusion over who owns what. You got these people kind of colliding into each other. And CALR, they have an excellent [music] structure in place where if clear lanes that operate for each division, and you can think of a division as a big team. When the I 10 Santa Monica vioduct caught fire in November of 2023, CALR needed a rapid coordinated emergency [music] response. and the team that helped make it happen walked away with an award. What separated a potential crisis from [music] a success story wasn't just technical expertise, it was leadership. My guest for today is Julian Atala. Julian is a licensed professional engineer, vice president, and senior program manager at Kleinfelder. With nearly 15 years of experience [music] spanning quality management, materials engineering, and major infrastructure delivery, Julian has led some of the most complex programs in the [music] country. from the San Francisco Oakland Bay Bridge to the $20 billion Bright Line West highspeed [music] rail project. In this episode, we're going to talk about what it takes to lead high-erforming teams under pressure, how to build trust and capability on large-scale programs, [music] and why continuous learning is a leadership responsibility, not just a personal one. Now, if you're a firm leader, project manager, or engineer who wants to elevate how you lead people through complexity, this conversation is for [music] you. Now, before I dive in with Julian, I do want to tell you about AEC PM Connect, a series of in-person events that we've created at EMI for AEC project managers and the leaders who develop them. If you want to stay on [music] top of PM trends, elevate your team, and deliver stronger project results, these fullday events are built for you. We're coming to Kansas City this October, and [music] we hope to see you there. You can learn more and register at apmconnect.com. >> [music] >> I'm your host, Anthony Pasano, and this is the AEC Leadership Podcast. Let's dive in. >> Well, Julian, welcome to the AEC Leadership Podcast. >> Thanks for having me, Anthony. It feels great to be here. >> Yeah, excited to chat with you today. So, Julian, you've held nearly every role in the field, inspector, quality engineer, project manager, program director. talk a little bit about how that breath of experience and your background really shaped you into kind of the leader that you are today. >> Yeah, you know, I I'd say working in all those roles gave me a nice well-rounded perspective, you know, a better sense of of empathy, right? When I'm working with my team and I'm interfacing with other project stakeholders, I'm not I'm not completely guessing anymore what their day might feel like. I can I can relate on a little bit of a deeper level. And if there's, you know, two opposing groups on the on the project and they're pulling in these opposite directions, I think I have a much better understanding where each side is coming from. And, you know, that tends to make a nice difference in the way the project um just runs and the way the teams collaborate. Gathering those different perspectives, you know, it helps in other ways too. for example, you understand that it might be easy to develop a procedure that looks great on paper, but it's much harder to to write one that's actually going to work in the field or be practical. You know, you you got schedule pressures, you got real people, you got real constraints out there. So, you know, another thing I'd say is it also it helps you understand that no nobody really has the whole picture on a major project, right? the inspector is going to see things that the engineer, the manager in the office is never going to see. So, you you learn to bring these different perspectives together and to stop thinking that you need to have all the answers yourself. And um you know, I'm a believer that leadership comes through developing a strong intuition and you build that through putting yourselves in uncomfortable situations, one hard decision, you know, challenge, uncomfortable conversation at a time. And when you change seats, every time you change, you're presented with many unique challenges and pressures of having to reprove yourself to the team, you know. And I think all of these these different experiences really help build an intuition and a level of confidence in how I feel now with complex problems and sensitive situations. >> Yeah, that's great. I mean, I totally agree with you. I think having all these different positions can help you to really be more attuned to the different people you interact with. And certainly, I think we learn leadership lessons in every step or stage of our career, whatever they may be. And so, we understand now that you've kind of had these different positions, but just for our audience, tell them where you're at today. What position do you hold at Kleinfeld or what are some of the things you're doing on a day-to-day basis? >> Sure. Yeah. I mean I I I can kind of give a little snapshot of the road map too before I before I get there. You know I started out actually well I graduated with my civil engineering degree in 2011. I started out actually in the manufacturing uh aerospace industry which was connected to a machine shop. So in in practicality a lot of the hands-on experience and the office experience was handinand in one environment. So I quickly early on learned the value ad that some of the hands-on experience can have. And so um after that I joined a consulting firm which was heavily related to quality management specifically as a consultant for the state department of transportation. Um and through that experience I gained a lot of quality management um type of materials engineering exposure and then how the DOT operates. But I still was missing a lot of that field construction experience that I knew I needed. So I then chose to take a little detour and join a general contractor. Um we were working on a major cable state bridge they were building in downtown Long Beach. It was called the new Gerald Desmond Bridge. I think now they changed the name to the Long Beach International Gateway Bridge. Um but that was an amazing experience. I spent a couple years there overseeing the main span construction, climbing up, you know, 200 feet in the air, put my harness on, just interacting with the crews. It was really hugely beneficial um to my career. And then from there I um I joined the consulting industry again um helping CALR deliver um their their quality assurance and source inspection at fabrication facilities helping deliver this this uh regionwide quality program that they have um for all of the Southern California districts that they manage. And today I work as a vice president uh senior program manager at client builder where I now manage um that consulting contract for for CALR um it's materials engineering and testing services division. They go by METS and they specialize in um doing quality assurance and source inspection at just fabrication facilities offsite and then the engineers that we we employ have to act as liaons between our inspection staff that's at these fabrication facilities and the resident engineers that are in the field making sure that the projects on track and on schedule. Um so it's a it's a very managerial type of position. you really have to coordinate a lot between those different entities and um today I'm you know managing a bench of so many materials experts that are PhDs in you know concrete and steel metallergy and so I have to try to line up where I can use these these experts on certain situations on a daily basis and make sure that we have the right inspection staff at the right locations. >> That's great. Again, it sounds like just a lot of really valuable varied experience that can help one to kind of shape their leadership perspective, which is obviously the theme that we're talking about here is leadership. And that that's great. And I know you do a lot of work in quality management, Julian. And quality management is interesting because it really kind of sits at the intersection of like technical precision, but also people management interaction. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you kind of as a leader in quality management how you can balance both of those avenues as you lead. >> Yeah know it's a great uh way to put it. I mean at the end of the day quality it's getting delivered by the people right. So I would say the technical side of it that's really non-negotiable. You need to have your clear specifications. You need to have your inspection and testing requirements laid out. Make sure you got processes that are controlled and documented. There's a saying in quality, you know, if it's not written down, it doesn't exist. But a specification doesn't really inspect itself, right? You can you can build the greatest program in the world on paper, but if the the team's not fully bought into it, then it's not going to it's not going to be worth much. So when it comes to leading the teams and the people management aspect, you have to ensure that your team really has a clear understanding regarding the purpose or the why of quality management from a higher level. Most people they they understand the triple constraints of any project, right? You got your scope, you got your schedule, you got your budget, and you know, you don't want any of these to to drift too far. But I think what a lot of teams don't fully connect is that quality management is how you prevent these other constraints from drifting too far. So it it sits at the center of it all. It holds it all together and it just asks the question, are we building it right? So from a a deeper technical perspective, a new materials engineer shouldn't just know that a a fracture critical well for a steel bridge needs to get tested. They need to understand why it gets tested. what's the reasoning if it fails? You know, a bridge that families drive across could be at risk. So, once your team has a good understanding of the reasons, I think they're more willing to uphold the standard. And so, this is that that intersection between your people management and your your technical precision that's constantly occurring. Um and then as a as leaders I think most importantly we need to demonstrate that we take quality seriously and we need to support the quality team. We need to lead by example and um you know if the team ever watches the bar slip because holding it was inconvenient for the leader then that standards gone right? You're not going to get it back by talking about it. So if you instill an understanding of the importance of quality in the team, it's going to go a long way to building this this culture that that's going to embrace it. [snorts] >> Yeah, that's really important in our world because tech, like [clears throat] you said, technical competence has to be a non-negotiable in what we do. You know, bridges, buildings, safety of the public, etc. Um, but at the same time, we need to be able to interact with people effectively. And like you said earlier, the more you know about different roles and different people, the easier it helps you to be able to do that. >> And you know, we do a lot of project management training and development work at EMI with companies and we see a lot of times that the quality management piece of it tends to get squeezed out of a project because you know, you're running out of time, you're running out of budget, like we don't have time to go over the plans in extra time or something. So really, I think as leaders and project managers in general, like you said, you have to lead by example. show people that quality is important and that you're going to hold it at a very high regard and I think that that's really important for these projects and so you know you've really worked on some of I would say the most demanding infrastructure programs in the country and these are high pressure highscale um very busy highstake projects. What would you say from your experience effective leadership looks like on these types of projects? I would say the the biggest thing that I've learned is that as you scale, leadership stops becoming about control and starts being more about alignment because nobody can personally touch every detail on a major program. The the scale is going to humble you pretty fast. I mean, early in your career, you can you can kind of muscle through on effort and and longer hours, but when you get to a program scale, that's going to break down. You need a you need a solid structure in place so people can you know they can find themselves working incredibly hard but still drifting in different directions that doesn't share you know this common goal of the program. Um to provide an example I was you know I was working on one of the new major highspeed rail programs in the United States. Um on that program I was serving as the quality director in the early planning phases. And you know for those of your listeners that are familiar a program is just basically multiple projects combined under one umbrella for a common goal right and in this case we had uh we had stations we had a maintenance facility so these are building construction projects we had bridges vioaducts track and systems the trains themselves. So from the quality lens, a big concern uh that a team has for a program of that scale is going to be how do we ensure consistency and alignment across the entire program because you know like we mentioned quality is is a pretty complex topic and it tends to create a lot of confusion. So we need um we need a structured way that we can communicate consistent standards across the program. But each of these projects, they have a very unique set of technical requirements. And this rail corridor, you know, it's expanding multiple jurisdictions. It's going into two different states. So you have all these oversight agencies that have their own set of requirements. So to establish some form of consistency, we we need some kind of tiered structure that's going to flow from from the highest level down through the sub levels. And so um you know we we developed a single programwide set of guidelines at the top that are flexible, right? It's these aren't mandatory standards. They're more set of guidelines that can act as a like a north star anchor. So when when you're now developing those scope specific quality requirements that are written directly into each of the contracts, um you can further distill it down into tailored quality plans. And so you have this one source of truth that cascades down and that structured system is what's going to carry across the program and make it easier to share the the message from leadership so that people can carry the work. Um and I say, you know, the last piece is is being comfortable knowing what you don't know. You know, like I mentioned in my current role, I help lead a team that runs from junior engineers to PhD level experts and all kinds of different specialized materials. And you know, honestly, most days they know more than I do, right? So, my job is just to to put the right expert on the right problem, get them what they need, and just get out of their way. >> Yeah, that's great. I think that's a big part of being a project or program manager, that facilitator role, right? Like making sure you got the right people in the right seats, bringing the right people in when you need them. But I think a couple things you said there I think stand out to me from a leadership perspective. One of them is for those of you listening. When you go from a technical professional engineer, architect to a project manager, obviously you have the ability to grow in your career, grow as a PM, grow as a leader, then you could take another step, right? If you're going from project management to program manager, let's say, and you can grow even further. Any transition points in your career are opportunities for growth as a leader, whether you change companies, whether you go from project manager to program manager. So, I think that's something to keep in mind. I know sometimes we get really fearful of change, especially sometimes as analytical professionals, you know, we like our structure. We like the things we do. I think that could be helpful. The other thing that I liked a lot about what Julian said that I think is something that we don't do that well >> in the AEC industry is you mentioned creating some guidelines that are flexible, >> right? >> And I think that that's really valuable. I know when we do a lot of our project management and leadership training, companies come to us because they'll say, "Hey, our project management or our leadership initiatives or or the way we do things is very inconsistent across our organization." And I get it [clears throat] and I think it should be more consistent and we try to help with that. But I do think there has to be some flexibility, right? Every office location has different requirements geographically, different clients. So I think when you're thinking about leadership, when you're thinking about project development, it's great to have some values, some guidelines, a vision for it. And it's also great to give those leaders some flexibility within that kind of overarching vision because really I think to be a leader, you have a big part of it is yourself, right? Like your strengths that are going to be different than the leader sitting next to you in your same company. So >> right, >> I think having that flexibility is just an important aspect of of leadership basically. >> Absolutely. Yeah. Great points. >> So, I want to go back. I think you mentioned earlier the word trust, which I think is really important in leadership. And and when you're building or you're in inheriting a team on a major program, what do you do to kind of establish that trust with this these new group of team members? How would you approach that or what advice can you offer around that? Yeah, I'd say that, you know, the first thing is really just try to be patient, understand the team before you you jump in there and try to change anything because there's probably there's probably already a culture there. They they probably got their own habits, um, frustrations, some things that maybe they're they're quietly proud of. So, you don't want to show up and think you have all the answers on on day one because you're going to miss all of that stuff. So, early on, I I would mostly listen. uh maybe look for some obstacles that you can clear out of their way quickly, like uh maybe there's a process slowing everyone down. Um some confusion over maybe who decides what. So if you look for some of those those early wins, then you can communicate that um you know, leadership's not there to just demand some kind of performance. You're actually there to really make performance possible. And when I look back on my career, I'd say, um, some of the best leaders that I've ever worked for, strangely, it felt like they were working for me in a way. Um, you know, they made it easy to ensure that I had everything I needed to be effective and just do what I was hired to do, right? It was kind of this servant leader type of mentality. And regarding trust, I again, I think you just have to be patient, authentic. you know, trust isn't going to come with the title. Um, or, you know, the the certifications after your name. People, they'll see through anything that isn't real and and they watch what leaders tolerate more than, I think, what they say. So, um, trust is going to get earned in these little moments. If something goes sideways, you know, make sure that as the leader, you kind of step in front of that instead of of hunting for someone else to blame. if you're wrong, you know, make sure you live up to that and say, "Let's fix it." You don't really have to be a perfect leader, but um you should be an honest leader. And I think with some of these highly technical people, it's best to maybe steer the ship from a higher level for them and help guide them into the task they need to do, but then let them let them really do what they're specialized at doing and kind of stay out of their way. I mean you can you can look for unique um opportunities where maybe your experience has some some insight. You can demonstrate competence. You know I guess early in my career when I when I left that consulting company and I went to join the general contractor on that that cable state bridge project I was talking about at first, you know, this was this was the field, right? This was a big deal for me. It was it was very new. But I knew it's scary. It's 200 feet in the air. you you got to be careful, but at the same time, the the crews, they're, you know, every day they're jumping around. They're super comfortable up there. So, if you want to if you want to kind of be welcomed in and join in, you're going to have to get out there, too. You're going to have to get your hands dirt. You have to show them that um you know, you're you're actually part of the team and you're willing to to get out there and um take some some uh risks. You know, of course, everything's got to be safe. Um, and it was, but you you got to showcase that you're also willing to uh do the hard work as well. >> Yeah, absolutely. And it sounds a lot like what you're describing there is a lot of the components of servant leadership, right? And really serving the people that you lead. Like you said, it feels like you're kind of being you're leading them in a sense, if you will, which I think is great. And you mentioned too how important it is when things might go sideways on a project. And so what I want to do here is talk a little bit about an emergency situation that you were involved with so we could talk about how leadership really comes to play in some of these real life project situations. The I 10 Santa Monica vioaduct caught fire in November 2023. You helped to lead the consultant materials investigation team in supporting CALR and the emergency response. Can you talk a little bit about the situation kind of what happened and what were some of the leadership principles that kind of guided you through that kind of a high urgency situation? >> Yeah, abs. Absolutely. I mean I I remember this one vividly. Um I'll tell a little story, personal one. So like you said, November 2023, my first daughter is about 3 weeks old. And so I'm at home. I'm taking some time off. Um, you know, I'm I'm holding my daughter and my my phone rings and it's the the CalR branch senior for the um consulting contract that we were working on and I'm thinking, wow, you know, he knows he knows I'm off right now, so this must be important. So, I I hand my my daughter to my wife. I pick up and he says, you know, Julian, I'm really sorry to be calling you right now, but um you got to turn on the news, man. This is big. So turn on the TV and every major news station, the I 10, LA's busiest freeway, it's right in the heart of downtown. It's shut down due to a massive fire. The governor declares a state of emergency. So, you know, the stakes are just as high as they can get. And my company at the time um was nice enough to fly my mother down actually so she could help out at home while I went out to the field to support the team. But, you know, diving into some of the leadership principles, I'd say one thing that is an absolute necessity in a situation like this is you got to have clear lanes that everyone is operating in. You know, in an emergency, the fastest way to make things worse is if you have confusion over who owns what. You got these people kind of colliding into each other. and CALR, which is the California Department of Transportation, they have an excellent structure in place with clear lines uh or clear lanes that that operate um for each division. And you can think of a division as a big team. A single division can consist of several hundred people. And at the time, um I was working as a consultant for the CALR division of materials engineering and testing services. We call it METS. Um and we're one piece of a much bigger response. There's another CALR division that's called structure maintenance and investigations and they take the lead for investigations where damage occurs to any existing structures. But when the damage is as extensive as it was, multiple divisions come in to support them and that's how METS got involved. Now METS um we owned an extremely critical piece. So this was the materials sampling and testing work that's used to evaluate the residual condition of the structure and provide the information that the repair replace decision is going to ultimately rest on. So we're under this immense pressure to obtain all this accurate data and we need it yesterday, right? But the the main takeaway here is that everyone knew where their lane started and stopped and that's what allowed this big group to move fast without colliding. Um now once the team knows their role and the team knows their lane now we need to execute effectively as a team right so this is where the communication is critical and we found it uh most effective to designate a single point of contact for our team right and my role was to be that single point of contact for our team that was uh reporting to the CALR Mets lead not because um I have all the answers or anything like that but it's it's so Calrans always has this one clear reliable line for status to to push up the chain within the department. Um, and so the client lead trusted me with the responsibility to to guide our team, document all the activities along the way. Um, you know, so basically when the stakes are that high, you don't need 10 voices inter overlapping. You need one uh voice that you can trust to deliver. And most importantly, if you're going to be in that role or if you're in a position where you have to assign someone to be in that role, you got to ensure that that person can maintain composure because uh everyone on site felt the same pressure and the team is going to take the temperature from the lead that they trust their information with. And nobody had every fact in those first days, but you can you can set up a process where you get the facts. um you you just take a step back, you slow things down, and you let the data drive the decisions, you know, not the adrenaline. So, nobody got to run ahead of what the testing supported. If the data wasn't ready, the answer wasn't ready. And, you know, the last thing to mention, which I think is critical, is document everything. Um, I'll repeat the rule I mentioned earlier. If it's not documented, it didn't happen. Right. >> Right. >> If a bird flies across the bridge, you want to know about it. I want that bird documented. I just everything overdoccument because what I needed to do and what's very important is if you're in a situation like this is you need to have a daily executive report that can be shared with the team that can be shared all the way up the chain because when the decisions are that consequential that record is what you know everyone above you is going to be relying on. But I mean the truth is all this stuff really just works because the team was incredible. um to see the department um operate under that type of pressure was extremely motivating and I don't think just for the people involved but also for the traveling public as well and you know like you mentioned that response went on to win multiple awards uh the mayor the governor even the vice president came down to to thank the response teams in person so it was really an excellent display of teamwork >> in the AEC industry skilled project managers are the backbone of success. EMI's [music] AEC PM certification offers tailored training, ongoing support, and exclusive access to premium content that keeps your team sharp and effective. From foundational [music] training to advanced leadership tools, set your team apart with certified growth. Learn more at aecpm.com. That's aecpm.com. Yeah, it's great. And I think it was probably a two-way street. I think the team was probably incredible because they're incredible and they were probably also incredible because of some of these guidelines and things that were in place like you said. So I think it was probably >> works both ways and I think that so so just to kind of summarize that because I think it was really valuable. So the first piece of it which sounds extremely important is to have these clear lines of responsibility and lines of communication so people know who's communicating what to who and that's something I think you should have in place all the time but obviously comes into place uh when there's an emergency it's even more important. So that's really important. I think the second thing you said which was really critical is keeping your composure and staying calm. I mean literally the biggest highway in the area was on fire and you know in order to you have to stay calm even with all of that going on to try to be able to do your job effectively. So that's I think that's a a really really important one and that's one that quite frankly I see a lot of people struggle with because >> they they just get frazzled right when things happen. I mean it's easy to get frazzled. These are big projects. There are lives at stake here, right? And I think also that that is something that >> you don't necessarily have early in your career, I think it's one of those things you kind of learn over dealing with situations, which is why hands-on experience is really, really good and really, really important because the only way to really, I feel like, gain some of that composure, and I don't know if this is how you developed it, but it's just experiencing these things. >> Absolutely. Yeah. No, 100%. The only way that you're going to know inherently that it's it's not the end of the world even though you're in this high stakes um position is if you you've kind of been there before, you know, even though in this case it was definitely I'd say the highest stakes I've ever been involved in and in such a condensed emergency atmosphere. But having, you know, been in other roles where you feel pressure and you feel this sense of urgency, um, you just, you learn to deal with it. So, you're absolutely right. I mean, the experience is going to build that composure over time and it's also going to build your intuition and you trust that intuition and you trust that you know that um, you're making the right decisions, right? So, >> yeah, absolutely. So clear lines, it was composure, and the last one was documentation, right? Making sure you document as everything you can on the project. I mean, again, it's another thing that we should be doing all the time, but it's going to come into play, especially when there are emergencies or things happen, you have to go back and look at something. So those three things can really be helpful in situations like that. So that's a great, you know, real life example. All right. The last thing I want to ask you about, Julian, is >> I want to ask you a little bit about development and training. You've developed professional development programs. You've delivered training in highly technical disciplines. You know, leadership isn't just about developing yourself. It's about building capability in others. So, what can you tell us about kind of your philosophy or the work you've done on, you know, developing others through training, through things of that nature? Yeah. I mean, so in in our industry, I think um you know, with engineers, for example, the technical material is usually not the hard part, right? I think you'll probably agree that the harder but more important part for most technical staff is the communication and and leadership side of things because it doesn't matter how much, you know, if it's going to stay locked in your head where nobody can use it. And um you know, my father's a civil engineer. He's retired now, but he had a very successful career. And I remember asking him early on. Um, you know, dad, what's the what's the one skill that that I should learn if I want to move up? And right away, he says, communication, public speaking, that's going to be your differentiator. And I think he was right in a lot of ways with that. But, you know, the the other thing that I've learned is capability is not built by passively being exposed to some something. Um, you can hand someone a thick manual. So you can sit them through a long slide deck, but nothing's really going to change. It's built through repetition and application. So when I was helping build a professional development program for one of our major clients, I wanted to ensure that this was something that was not only effective, but that it can be adopted as a routine um to the way that they do business because then you get these repeated cycles that guarantee effective leaders. And I I'll paint a picture of what that looked like in practice. So all staff both new and experienced they build their own development plans and they have uh one two and three year goals it's across four areas uh technical competence leadership communication skills and then uh licenses and certifications and then everyone gets paired with and may also serve as an experienced adviser in a company. Um, partly because that's how the the judgment of the role is actually gonna going to transfer and partly because I mean a lot of firms there's so much specialized knowledge that is going to live in these experienced people's heads and if you don't deliberately pass it on, it's going to walk out the door when they leave. Um, you know, and you also notice how it's not just for the new staff, it's also developing your experienced staff because as advisers, they win because now they're gaining excellent leadership skills as they mentor. Um, you know, your understanding of the material, your communication skills and your your patience, your empathy, it's all got to be intact in order for you to be able to teach it effectively. And a practical technique I guess I'd recommend for leaders listening that that are um thinking of ways that they can they can capitalize on some type of leadership development is u you know give an engineer a new technical article or an engineering report that that they own and then you can ask them to build a presentation on it. Then require that they arrange and deliver that session to the team themselves. So to teach it they have to master that builds technical competence. They then need to condense the key points down uh clearly for an audience, stand up and deliver it. That's communication skills that they're developing. And then they gather the team, they organize, and they run the session. I think that's uh that's leadership. >> That's great. I love that. I think anytime you have to take what you learned and distill it down and teach it to others, that's the best way to develop it. >> Absolutely. >> Well, Julian, I want to thank you so much. You've spent some really good time with us here on the AEC Leadership Podcast. Once again, he is Julian Atala, his vice president, senior program manager at Kleinfelder. Um, it was great to not just not only hear about your kind of leadership philosophy, but also the example um of the interstate emergency was really helpful in thinking about how to frame these things out and people can implement them. So, Julian, thank you so much for really everything you're doing leadership related in our industry and thanks for joining me on the podcast today. >> Thank you, Anthony. Thanks for having me. It's been a great experience. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Julian. I really think a lot of the points were great. I love those three points that he gave there around leadership to emergencies, [music] right? The clear responsibilities, the composure, and the documentation. These are things that you can start to practice right [music] away in your career. If you enjoyed the interview, please subscribe to our podcast here. We do put out videos like this on a weekly basis [music] to help engineers become better managers and leaders. I'll see you next week. >> [music]