Why Men Are No Longer Seeking Women - Dr Debra Soh

Is the issue, do you think, more about a desire for sex or coupling? Hm. You mean in terms of why people aren't having it? >> Yeah. It's probably both. I think at the core everybody wants to find someone. Many people may say that they they've given up and they're happy on their own, but I do think that's what most people deep down want. And sex is Well, see, I the thing with sex though, I think porn is a big part of this issue in terms of why people are turning away from actual sexual activity. They're getting their needs met through this proxy that simulate or simulates real sexual activity. Because when you're watching porn, the same network of brain regions is activated as when you're actually having sex. So, you're having the resulting orgasm, and you are, you know, getting these feel-good chemicals. It helps to self-soothe and regulate your emotions, help you help calm down if you're stressed out. And so, it makes men, I think, in particular less likely to want to go out and go through the hassle of having to talk to a woman, having to sit through a date, having to pay for the date, having to follow up, and all this stuff. Like, why bother do that if you can get sexual gratification on a screen? But, I think also that leads to potentially like an overall sense of lethargy. Because when you are masturbating and having orgasm, you are you know, you're going to be sleepy after. So, is that also You can tell me, do you think this is a trend not for you, but just in a trend more generally with young men >> again. in terms of Does does this affect their motivation? Because I'm I'm wondering for guys, this question of why men are not are falling behind in society, right? And I I'm very concerned for young men because I imagine I hear all the time from parents that their daughters are doing really well, excelling academically, but their sons just for whatever reason are just they're not they're not enjoying it, you know, they're having mental health issues. They're just staying at home and fapping all the time. >> Yeah. Well, maybe not fapping, but they're like, you know, vaping and playing video games or online betting or whatever, and they have no motivation. Do you think porn could be part of that? Because I think if you're exposed to this at such a young age and this is the thing that you're watching every day and it's your coping strategy, that potentially that's the thing you're going to constantly gravitate toward and it's actually going to, you know, make you really sedated and lethargic more broadly in life. Yeah, I think sedated is a great word. I've got another idea that Scott probably can't wait to misquote, um, the male sedation hypothesis, young male syndrome, which I know that you know about, historically high volumes of young sexless men tended to cause anarchy and revolutions and push over granny and set stuff on fire. Why is it given that we've seen the highest rates of sexlessness amongst young men in the modern world that we're not seeing the concordant amounts of antisocial behavior. And it's my belief that men are being sedated out of their status seeking and reproductive seeking behavior through screens, video games, and porn. Uh, and yeah, that that's what's happening behaviorally. Maybe the semantic ring disruptors, maybe a lot of weed. I think more people more young guys smoke weed than drink alcohol now. So, yeah, it is a real push toward lethargy. Um, do I think that it's you're anesthetizing yourself from your sort of mate seeking behavior by being able to use porn. Almost certainly to a degree. I mean, there's even the opposite, which is what was it? Masturbate before you evaluate was a tagline at university, which was, "Do I really want to sleep with that girl? Let me Let me have a wank first and work out if I still do." And for the most part, the guys were like, "No." Wasn't that I I I like what was it? I didn't like you, I was just horny. Um, and in some ways you go, "Ah, that that avoids me from making a mistake." But when you do it on mass and when it's very easily available, um, I mean, look, yeah. There's some mixed bag data. Dr. David Ley is very anti-porn panic. I know uh, Mike is very anti-porn panic, too. And then on the other side, there's some people that behaviorally it's not recognized as an addiction properly yet, I don't think. Right. But, um it seems impossible to me that one of the strongest drivers for humans being given to them freely, they can push a essentially push a button like rub a button for a while, and >> [laughter] >> and they get to uh experience this thing that I mean, you know what would be fascinating? I would have loved to have seen in hunter-gatherer tribes how much uh masturbation happen occurs. Like, is it >> Probably too busy foraging. Okay, well, that maybe that might be true. Um but we just talk to me the neuroscience of porn use. Is there anything distinct about that that's different to what's happening when people have sex? Uh Uh okay, I was going to mention I was going to say something. Oh, so what I was going to say, I agree with you in terms of like if you're I can see if you're doing it like constantly and it becomes a lifestyle thing, how This is what my concern is. If it's like a lifestyle thing for guys. Cuz I've had men say to me when they are not watching porn, if they managed to cut out porn entirely, that they actually have more motivation to go up and talk to a woman. Because I would imagine if you see a woman that you're talking to and you want to go speak to her, and say you're maybe more shy or anxious, you know in the back of your mind that you can go home and masturbate. And that's going to give you a release after. In some ways, would that not make it a little bit easier for younger guys especially who may not have as much experience with women, and especially post-Me Too where they're already a little bit understandably more scared to talk to women, how it knowing that you have this other option might That's a good point. That That is a good point. Uh I mean, it's the same thing as if the only way that men could get sex was by marrying a woman, asking her father, becoming a pillar of the community, showing his competence, or if you just need to be in a nightclub at the right time in the right place at 2:00 in the morning. Like men will meet those standards appropriately, including the standards for themselves in order to get sexual gratification through a screen. I mean, it is I can't remember who it was that said it to me, but just for a second, think about how stupid the human brain is, and think about how strong our sex drive is, that looking at a 7-in across screen that I am not a part of, of someone else having sex with someone else, can confuse my brain into thinking some sex is going to happen here. Yeah. >> Like that that is how strong this drive is. Right? [snorts] That a a two-dimensional exclusively video and audio representation on a teeny tiny little screen popped up against a pillow is enough to convince your brain there might be some sex on. You should respond appropriately. Yeah. Uh it is mad. Also, think about what it's doing to kids. Like this is one of the rabbit holes I've been going down more recently and thinking about how has this affected Gen Z's development? They're exposed to porn at such a young age. But um in terms of the difference between say what's going on in the brain, it's the same brain network basically, you know, like regions that are involved in physiological arousal, penile tumescence, visual uh regions. Um this was my dissertation actually, so um it takes me back. Now I'm trying to remember what other parts of You did a motor >> dissertation on penile tumescence? >> No, no, not just penile tumescence, but it was on basically like male sexuality and sexual arousal and yeah, I looked at the structure and function of the brain. I used four different types of brain imaging. It was a lot of fun. It was a very expensive study, but I was I was extremely blessed. >> Really fun for the men. Yeah. Yeah. >> [gasps] >> Um and so basically it's it's it's the same network. It's not activated as strongly, but it's very much the same regions, and that's why pornography is so compelling. And why I think for people who especially if you are if that is your primary motive sexual release, Mhm. you very much become a preference or a stand-in. >> habituating. More than anything, it's just what do you do? You know, it Guys that tend to go to the same bar all the time, sit in the same seat, order the same coffee. Like it just becomes a part of your daily routine, and there's this weird habituation effect, I think, with porn. Mary Harrington calls it the law of fap entropy, which is whatever you start out wanking to gets progressively more extreme over time. >> That's that's actually I I like her work, but actually that's not exactly accurate. >> what is accurate. >> who end up watching quote extreme stuff, that's actually what they liked all along. It just took them a while to admit it to themselves. Oh, god, the algo wasn't delivering them what they needed until it took a bit of time to refine it. Well, because I understandably men who have these unusual sexual preferences, they're a little bit >> Yeah, balloons. They're a little bit more reluctant to to say out loud, so Even to themselves. >> Even to themselves, and so Oh, that's so interesting. >> to say their partner or their friends or if they're talking about this, you know, it's like >> good. I love I love that. I mean, the the law still works, but not for the reason that you think. It's not a progressive habituation to more extreme stuff. It's a progressive revealing to yourself of what you wanted or >> preference. Oh, that's so cool. What about gooning? Let's talk about gooning. >> [laughter] >> Yeah, I mean, you could spend your life masturbating watching porn if you want to. There's enough content out there, for sure. Mhm. Um so, gooning, I'm sure your audience knows what this term is, but it's basically men who predominantly men who like to masturbate to no end in sight, and basically my understanding, they might have multiple screens open for hours. They don't reach an orgasm. It's like edging, but for a longer period of time, and they don't really have any conflict about it. They quite enjoy it. Mhm. How's porn affected women? I think there are more women struggling with porn issues than people realize cuz this is predominantly been an issue, like say, um, porn quote addiction. Although, like you said, I I don't believe porn is addictive. I think it's a poor coping mechanism for people who have anxiety and who procrastinate. That's really what it's been Mhm. when I talk to men who have >> not addicting. Yeah, well, because if you say you have anxiety or you lack assertiveness, it's a very easy way to distract yourself and not have to deal with the problems in your life, which I have a lot of compassion for people who struggle with this because I think because it's pornography and it's related to sex, it's a lot more stigmatized. So, I understand why people want to call it an addiction because there have been studies that claim that it's addiction, but they don't account for other confounding variables. So, they don't ask about things like paraphilias. They don't From what I've seen, they don't ask about anxiety. So, you don't know when you're looking at these brain regions that are supposed to be different that are correlated with addiction. You don't know if what you're seeing in the people with porn problems is due to addiction or is it due to the fact that they're anxious or the the fact that they have these unusual sexual interests. So, I think that research could be a little bit cleaner. If that if it does happen that new studies come out showing this, then I'm fully on board with that, but I'm just not really convinced because when you talk to guys with porn problems, almost always they have anxiety. And this is a way for them to avoid talking to their spouse or their girlfriend. Yeah, so what's different with women? Women, I think it's the same thing. We don't know as much about women because this is a an issue that I think is only really become more of a problem with the younger generation, maybe even millennial women, like younger millennial women, with the accessibility of porn. But, I think even cuz it's even with studies when they're looking at, say, the the effects of porn on kids, women have only really started to show more negative, um, body image, say, or body comparison more recently because girls are being exposed to it now. They Girls tend to watch porn later than boys, and they tend to watch it maybe once or twice out of curiosity, but I do think with like Gen Z, they're being exposed to this even before their first sexual experience, before their first orgasm. They can't make sense of it and I think that it can be integrated into their life a little bit more. So, the same thing I think anxiety, usually for anyone with a porn issue, there's a history of some form of sexual trauma, unfortunately. So, there there it's a way that >> Anyone with a porn issue or most most people with a porn issue, there is some history of sexual trauma. Not everyone, but in my experience many of them have had some issue with uh yeah, either with abuse or being exposed to porn at a young age, either accidentally and that was like a traumatic thing. Like when I say trauma, I'm not the way sometimes people use the word trauma nowadays is very flippant, right? They use it over the this You mean actual >> insignificant thing. No, yeah, I'm referring to something that is actually quite horrific and awful. Or they uh or they might have been shown it in the process of grooming. So, what do you what what do you think's going on? Is it just disinhibition, dysregulation? Is it the same reason that people who maybe had a childhood trauma struggle with gambling or struggle with drugs or alcohol or emotions, rage? Is it just the same but this the particular pathway these people have found is porn or is there something specific about the the mechanism that porn gives that helps them to sort of I don't know, alchemize or try and alchemize whatever they went through? It could be a partially biological thing because it's like a self-soothing thing. So, especially for children, if they're not taught ways to self-regulate, they're looking for ways to feel good when they're stressed out or upset, right? So, some people gravitate toward drugs and alcohol. Other people might gravitate toward porn. I think it's depends on how old you are probably when you uh come across it initially, what your experience is when you see it, like is it a pleasurable thing. But I think for the men say who have like when I was doing research who had had these negative experiences in childhood, it was a way of revisiting it to try and make sense of it, I think. 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