Why Listening Beats Every Argument

Last night, I figured something out that I'm going to expand upon a bit tonight. So, when I in an event like this, I I have a what would you say? There's something I'm always trying to accomplish and I've I've learned how to do it. Then I learned how to identify what I'm doing and to explain it. So because often, you know, if you're living beyond your own understanding, if you're really living, you're living beyond your own understanding. You sort of catch up with yourself as you go or not. Um, so I use the opportunity, this opportunity, and I did this when I was a university professor. I used the opportunity to speak to think about something. So, I'm not presenting my audience, let's say, with a preconceived notion and attempting to to convince them that that's the case. You can do that, but and you can do that better or worse. But the problem with doing that is that it it doesn't move you along in exactly the right direction. It doesn't move the audience along in the in the optimal direction. It moves it cements you in your own presuppositions and it moves the audience towards a predetermined end. And there's something to be said for that. But it's it's more exciting to take [snorts] yourself and the people you're talking to along for the ride towards what? Well, when I come out and start a lecture, I have question in mind. I have three questions in mind tonight. So, one of them is what's the nature of man and woman? So, that's a question about identity. How do you conceptualize identity? It's a very like major preoccupation with our whole culture at the moment. I mean, it's identity politics. What's that? dispute about the nature of identity. So we'll investigate that. We'll investigate the the identity of the divine and that's both of those investigations will be in some manner a matter of definition. Right? So and then the third question they're all interrelated these questions is what's the nature of the relationship between man and woman and the divine. Okay. So now those are the questions. Now, one thing that really struck me hard last night is that question and the word question and the word quest are the same word as the word inquiry and question and quest are the same word. And a quest is an adventure and a a quest that you'd find fascinating. A movie quest, let's say, and most movies are quests, is it's a journey towards an unspecified destination that transforms in an unpredictable way. That's a quest. And if it's a say a heroic quest, which is a true adventure story, then the destination is worth the destination is worth the effort and the quest is difficult. but meaningful and a question sets up a quest and if you know that then you can use the question to set up a quest and that can be the talk and that could be the b that's the basis of a good conversation someone like Joe Rogan for example who's obviously spectacularly good at conversations by at least in so far as the opinion of people everywhere in the world is concerned he's he's always on a quest Right? Cuz Joe asks questions because he wants the answers and he doesn't know where it's going to go. And he has his opinions, but those are expressed as questions, right? They're they're not so much impositions of his belief on the person he's talking to or the audience as as the foundation of the questions that he's using to interrogate his guest, let's say, and to move the conversation along. what in the direction of what enhanced knowledge something like that. So it's a pretty high order quest and the goal would be to be wiser at the end of it in in a valid manner and then also to be engaged along the way and that would be good like if you could live your life like that that would be good so that you get wiser as you move along and it's engaging along the way that would be good and so a that's what a quest offers and so a a Quest. A question is a quest and so and that's good quest for meaning and wisdom. Okay. So now we have three questions in front of us and they're they're complicated questions. What is a man and a woman? I mean Matt Walsh as many of you know he right well we're right. What is a woman? It's very strange that we're asking that question but we are but we are. And that's worth noticing and I you could parody that and he did and quite effectively but that shouldn't blind you to the fact that that's actually become a question and there's a lot of foolishness in that but there's also a reason that question has come up and it's not trivial and if you're asking the question what is a woman you're asking the question what is a man because you can't ask one of those questions without asking the other. So there we're that's where we're at in the culture is that we're we're questioning our most fun truly our most fundamental assumption. I don't think there's a more fundamental assumption even speaking biologically than than what constitutes male and female. It's it's more fundamental than down and up or black and white or night and day. creatures differentiated sexually before there were nervous systems. Like I said, an old distinction. So that means things without brains can tell the difference between male and female, right? But but it's become a it's become a question. Okay? So I'm going to start this. Remember the questions. What is a man? What is a woman? What's the nature of the divine? And what is the relationship between man and woman and the divine? Those are the three questions. Now, I'm going to hit that those questions from a variety of different perspectives. And uh hopefully that'll culminate in something like the goal of the quest, let's say. So, I'm going to start by telling you a story. This is from Toltoyy's Leo Toltoy who was a great Russian author. He wrote Warren Peace and Anacredina. Um, many people believe that Warren Peace is the greatest novel ever written. I don't think so because I'm more of an admirer of Dossi, but Toltoy is more of a sociologist and DSTski is more of a psychologist and I'm more psychologically minded. So, I like Dosioski, but Toltoy is a great author and Warren Peace is a masterpiece by any definition. And so, whether it's number one or number five in terms of great books, it's it's still you know doing well and Toltoy was an extremely successful man by any standard of success. So he had immense estates. He had a huge family. He had a he was extremely wealthy because of the success of his literary works which is a pretty hard thing to pull off. Um he was and he was a renowned author. So it wasn't just that he was famous and rich because of his writing, he was also extraordinarily admired. And so and at the height of his fame, literally at the height of his success, he was deeply suicidal. Deeply suicidal. He was constantly afraid on his estate when he was there walking that he'd hang himself in the barn or shoot himself. He he had this very strange combination of success at the highest conceivable level and absolute despair. And I think it was also the disjunction between those two things that drove him to despair because you know it's one thing to be miserable when you're actually miserable, right? And that's kind of understandable. Everything's not going your way. But then to have everything that you could think that anyone would want and to have even earned it and deserved it and then to still be in a state where you're desperate beyond belief, that's there's a kind of a perverse hell about that. That's, you know, you could argue it's better to be rich and miserable than poor and miserable. And, you know, fair enough. But you don't have to use your imagination to any great degree to understand that that's a very perverse and paradoxical form of suffering and that that might have because what what would he think? It's like I've got everything that I could have and I can't see any way to to be grounded in my life. I I'm I'm drowning in misery and yet there's nowhere to go. So there's a kind of particular desperation in that. Now, Toltoy wrote a book called Confessions um or Confession. I don't remember if it's singular or plural. And uh it's relatively short book. It's very much worth reading. Uh it's a pretty straightforward read all things considered, although it's a deep book. And it's a meditation on success and suffering. And it ends in a very interesting manner because he didn't commit suicide. He reconciled himself to life. and he turned his attention increasingly to religious matters as he became an older man. And he wrote some very great books uh that were religiously oriented, specifically one had a fairly major impact on me called the kingdom of God is within us. It's a great book and uh he had a a dream or a vision while he was starting to recover from his intense suffering. it. The the dream was that he was he was suspended in in midair at at extreme elevation so that the earth was spread out below him, but thousands of feet below. And he he had that feeling of vertigo that you'd get appropriately if you found yourself suspended thousands of feet in the air. He's looking down and it was extraordinarily painful physically and psychologically to contemplate the depth of the abyss that was beneath him. And it doesn't take a it doesn't take Freud for it doesn't take the genius of Freud to understand how that vision related to his predicament because Toltoy was suffering from gazing into the abyss, right? The abyss of meaninglessness, the abyss of chaos. And the dream was representing that. But then and he could see that he was there was a rope descending from him that reached all the way to the ground and and that that was somehow stabilizing him that was establishing the relationship between him and ground. But in looking down he was overwhelmed and he realized that he could look up. And what he saw when he looked up was the same rope, golden rope, except it was extending so far above him that he couldn't see its culmination point. And that that was suspending him over the abyss. It was what was stopping him from plunging to his death. And he he saw the rope and he gazed upward and that's when he woke up and that was the beginning of his recovery. Now what what Toltoy realized it's very complicated that image what he what he realized I'm going to unpack it for you this is the way you would unpack a complex dream which is a very difficult thing to do a dream is a place where ideas are born and so in a dream a new idea can emerge but not in full-fledged form it it emerges as a vision or an image and it may take it may be beyond you to transform it into words if you look at profound painting, profound religious uh Renaissance painting for example, dealing with like a deep religious matter, you could write about it forever. Like images can be of infinite depth, which is often why cathedrals, for example, are decorated with complex images because they're they're inexhaustible in their meaning. And dreams are like that. And they mean a lot. But you might say even in that they mean so much that they can't be easily comprehended or put into practical put into practice. Ideas have to be born somewhere. An idea won't just a truly creative and original idea will not just emerge in the theater of your imagination. Fullyfledged has a developmental history like anything complex. And the birthplace of the explicit idea is the image, the dream. A dream is a a mo a moving image like a movie. And so Toltoy is trying to work out this problem he has, which is how to cope with the abyss of life even when the material abundance that life can bring is insufficient to provide orientation. That's a complicated problem and the dream is a step towards solving that. And what Toltoy saw in the dream was the fact that as deep as the abyss is below us, the expanse above us is infinitely as infinitely high. And that there was some relation just as there was a relationship between Toltoy and the abyss beneath him. There was a relationship with between Toltoy and the infinite expanse above him. And it was that relationship with what was above that was sustaining him even though he didn't know it over the abyss. Okay. Now the question of course then is well what is the infinite expanse upward? To knew what the infinite abyss downward was. That was suffering and misery and nihilistic catastrophe and hopelessness and pain. But he only got a glimpse of what it was that was extended equally above him. Okay. So now if you're critically minded, you might think, well, why assume that there's anything above? And that would be a nihilistic stance, let's say, or an atheistic stance. Um or possibly a hopeless stance. If your experience of gazing downward was hopelessness, there's nothing that sustains us over the abyss. Well, that's a hard claim to make because people do live in the spite in spite of their suffering and their misery. So, we obviously can prevail and it's clearly the case that we're not suicidally miserable all the time. So despite the fact that we confront our own limitations and death, there are things that sustain us. >> What's it called? >> Peterson Academy. >> It's called Peterson Academy. >> Peterson Academy. If you want an actual education >> with hand selected professors from top universities [music] around the world. bringing the best professors together, making sure they're not censored in any way, giving them the audience and the remuneration and appreciation they deserve. >> And you were true to your word. You gave me absolute intellectual autonomy. I have had it through every course. We figure we can offer people a highquality university level education for under $2,000. >> Well, congratulations, Jordan. It's honestly brilliant. Can't wait to enroll myself. I'll be doing that straight after this. >> Funjo, Joe. >> Now, tall story. I would say spent the rest of his life trying to puzzle out what that might be that rel up upward relationship and he turned to traditional Christianity to flesh out his vision which is a wise thing to do because it's a very difficult the problem of defining the infinite upward expanse is a very complicated problem and other people have tried to to what to specify that expanse and our relationship with it. And there's no reason not to draw on that if you have any sense. Just like with any endeavor, you would want to gather as much knowledge as you can about the territory before wandering off on your own. And so, okay, so now that's one story. So, keep that story in mind. Now, I'm going to tell you another story. It's the same story. And so there's a parallel between them. And the point we're aiming at is illustrated by the parallel. I'm going to tell you a bunch of stories that are parallel. And it'll be in that the exposure to those parallels that the understanding will emerge. That's part of the investigation. Okay. So now there's a story in the Old Testament about a man named Jacob. And Jacob, Jacob is a man whose identity transforms as he has his adventure. Okay, that happens to all of us is that we, you know, that is that you're not the same as you were when you were a child. You might not even be the same as you were last week. People can get stuck so they are in a rut and they can remain static for decades or they can transform so completely that it's as if they become a completely new person. There's a lot of range in the mutability of our identity. And Jacob is a man who starts as a very bad man and ends as a very good man. And so that's a radical transformation. And he does that in part because he decides that he's going to do that. So that's an interesting that's an interesting beginning. So Jacob becomes Israel. And the word Israel means what? the chosen people first. But it also means those who wrestle with God. And I learned that seven years ago, something like that. And it struck me because I thought I understood what it meant. And it it means something like, well, who are the chosen people of God? Those who wrestle with God. Well, what does it mean to wrestle with God? Well, it means to wrestle with it means to wrestle with your destiny. It means to wrestle with the difficult moral decisions that constitute your navigation forward. And it means if you're striving to do that wrestling, which is the striving, then you're one of the chosen people of the divine. And so that's a interesting thing to know to know the next time that you're trapped in a difficult ethical decision and that you're trying to find your way forward that the fact that you're plagued by ethical consideration puts you in the game. Now, Jacob famously transforms his identity in the final sense one night when he's off to reconcile himself with his brother after being absent from his family 14 years after 14 years previously after being really quite a terrible person who who was a who's dependent on his mother in a way that wasn't good. who betrayed his father in a very deep manner repeatedly and who deceived and manipulated his brother in as profound a way as possible in in a manner so egregious that his his brother became homicidally enraged and Jacob had to leave the family. So, and Jacob's brother had every reason to be as angry as he was because what Jacob did was not forgivable in some ways. He there was a there was a law in place at the time that if you were the oldest son, you inherited the lion's share of the estate. Now, there's a reason for that. Modern people might not think that's fair, but there was a reason for that, particularly in agrarian societies because if you kept splitting the land or the ownings, the agricultural ownings over successive generations, everybody would end up with just enough land to starve to death on. And so it was it it made for a more sustainable society to keep the agricultural holdings intact to give them to the firstborn because there had to be some arbitrary decision. And that's an arbitrary decision in some ways. And to tell the other children that they more or less had to fend for themselves. And you might think that's not fair. It's like that's not a very thoughtful analysis that it's a complicated problem that these people were facing. And for better or worse, that was their solution. And so Esau had the rights of the firstborn. And Jacob conspired to take those rights to himself. And so and he did that very treacherously. So he wasn't a good guy and and yet he became one of the greatest heroes, let's say, of the of the biblical stories and and the founder of Israel, the founder of the people of God. So that's quite something given that he was not such a good guy to begin with. And it's one of the things that might give you hope from a narrative perspective is right because you're probably not as good as you could could be. And like maybe your past was, you know, pretty shady and you might think, well, there's no hope for you. And, you know, the more sin you've accumulated as you've moved forward, the harder it is going to be for you to aim up. But so the story goes, that doesn't mean it's hopeless. And and so Jacob's story actually lays out the pattern of upward transformation. So when Jacob leaves his mother who he connives with, when he runs away after his crimes, he leaves his mother, he leaves his father, he leaves his brother, he goes to visit his uncle and on the way he decides that he's he's going to be a new guy. And so he builds an altar and he makes sacrifice and then he has a dream. Okay, so what does it mean that he builds an altar? So the all these story elements, they they meld together. They're all pointing in the same direction. They're coherent. He builds an altar to signify his willingness to sacrifice towards what's highest. Okay? So there's no difference between doing that and deciding that you're going to sort yourself out. It's just the concretization of that. You see, because if you decide you're going to sort yourself out, then you're establishing a relationship with what's up instead of down. By definition, you wouldn't think that you had to sort yourself out unless you were willing to draw a distinction between the terrible things you'd already done and some other way of being that was better. Right? So, you're establishing a gradient between good and evil. And then you're deciding that you're going to serve good even though what the hell do you know? cuz you know you're just you're not a good person and so you're going to do it pretty badly but at least you've decided that that's going to be your intent that's going to be your aim. And then you might say well why the sacrifice? The answer is well you're going to have to give up some things to do this like who you are right because the more corrupt you are the more you're going to sacrifice to aim up. And you see this as the story unfolds. You see this in the story of Abraham, too, because these people, they transform so completely, it's as if they're new people. That's why they end up with a new name. Jacob becomes Israel, which is a name bestowed upon him by God. The same thing happens to Abraham. Abraham starts as Abram, Abbr A, and ends as Abraham. And the meaning of the story is that aiming up can take you on a journey that can transform your character so completely that's it's as if you're a new person as if you've been reborn. That's a way of thinking about in fact baptism itself is a symbolic portrayal of that radical capacity to transform. It's a way of dramatizing it. So you in a baptismal ceremony, you're plunged into chaos. That's the water, the baptismal water. That's a that's a dissolution into the water that existed at the beginning of time. That's a good way of thinking about the waters that the spirit of God rested upon at the beginning of time. You're plunged into that. Your old self is dissolved and your new self emerges. It's like the rise of the phoenix. That's another image of the same thing. And it's a dramatic portrayal of the human capacity to transform and possibly to transform upward. Now remember in in Totoy's vision, Toltoy had a vision of up, right? It wasn't it wasn't a delineated vision. There was not any information in the vision about the nature of up except that the rope that connected the suffering author to the transcendent was what was suspending him above the abyss. So that that's a very interesting idea is that your relationship with what's up in the highest sense is what suspends you over the catastrophic abyss. what maintains you. That's a proposition that Toltoy's dream is offering. Now, dreams are a very interesting phenomena because they don't lie. You you can trust a dream. You might not be able to figure out what a dream means, and that's a problem. But a dream is a natural phenomena like a tree or a or a rock or an animal. There's no guile in it. There's no deceit in it. It just portrays something. And so the dream portrayed to Toltoy the idea that he was suspended over the abyss of his despair by his relationship with what was highest. Now there's still plenty of problems with that formulation because for example it it shows it sheds very little light on what's highest, right? What's the nature of what's highest? Now remember we talked about the questions. What's the identity of man and woman? What's the identity of the divine? And then what's the relationship between the two? So the question of what's highest is part of the question. What's the nature of the divine? What's highest? Okay. So Jacob decides he's going to be a good guy. Now you've done this lots of times in your I hope you've done this at least to some degree many times in your life. you looked at the way you're acting, the way you're attending, and you think, God, you know, I got to do something about that because it's not going in the right direction, and I'm going to change. I'm I'm going to try to put myself together. And, you know, depending on how disciplined you are, and what sacrifices you're willing to make, and whether your new direction is appropriate, that's all going to determine whether you succeed or fail. But you need to understand what experience is being represented here. It's the experience of guilt, let's say, and shame and recognition of wrongdoing and then the determination to do something else or maybe to figure out what that something else would be because if you're steeped in sin, so to speak, it's going to be hard for you to see what's up. But you could at least decide that that would be your aim. Now Tammy pointed out something interesting which is once you aim at something the world of your perceptions rearranges to show you the pathway to that goal. And so that's a this is a remarkable this is dead true. This is how perception works because you wouldn't get anywhere if your perceptions didn't mark out a goal for you. Right? Because if you want to walk across the stage you look at the destination and you see the pathway. And that's how your perceptions work. Your vision is a aid to navigation. And so the path that reveals itself is going to be defined by your aim. This is an amazing thing to understand because it means that you could decide to aim up and without even knowing what up meant, but to really mean to aim and the pathway there would start to reveal itself. And so now you might not be very good at it. And the Old Testament heroes, they're not very good at it when they start. they stumble around pretty badly in their initial adventures, you know, because they got to get going. But, but you know this too because you know when you decide to transform yourself to some degree and you're stupidly trying something new as the fool you are that you're not great at it to begin with, but as you do it, you do get better. And so what that means is once you decide to aim up and you start acting that out, you would gather more information that sharpens your knowledge about your direction and makes you more skillful. Obviously, because if that didn't happen, you'd never learn anything. So clearly that can happen. So you can establish the intent of up and then you can make the presumption that the path will appear however obscured and that if you walk it it will clarify and your understanding of up will improve. And that's I would say that's part of the covenantal offering of relationship with the divine as a matter of definition. Like one of the insistences of the biblical stories is that you can establish a relationship with what's up. That's that's part of it. That's part of your nature. Okay. So let's take that apart. So I I'll close with with with one more episode from the story of Jacob. So the night that Jacob decides to change his life and build an altar and make the sacrifice which is a dramatization of his willingness to offer something valuable in the hope of changing. Let's say he he goes to sleep and he dreams. He has a famous dream and it's the dream of Jacob's ladder and he dreams of a staircase. It's often represented as an upward turning spiral. I like to think about it as a piece of music. That's a it's a nice analogy because I think music represents the same thing. In any case, he he has a vision of a structure that unites the earth with with up with the heavens and that there's a pathway and that the top of the pathway disappears into what's unknown and he saw angels descending and ascending on the ladder. And that was a vision of the structure that relates the earth and heaven and man and God. That's the claim. Now, a skeptic would say, "Well, what's your evidence for that?" That's what we'll investigate. Now you'll you'll note if you're using your imagination that there's an analogy between Jacob's vision and Toltoy's vision, right? Jacob and Toltoy both saw something ascending upward that disappeared into an infinite expanse above. So part of the idea there is that what's the highest form of up so the highest good isn't within the realm of your conception. It's just like if you're a materialist and you dig into the bottom of the world, you eventually run into a completely impenetrable mystery, right? You run into whatever the hell's going on at the quantum level, which is it's incomp it's incomprehensible. Even the people who can model it mathematically don't understand it. So if you drill down into the material world, you hit something beyond your comprehension. The same idea obtains here is if you go up instead of down so to speak, if you go up into the spirit domain of spirit instead of down into the domain of matter, you your knowledge finite as you are, your knowledge cannot conceive of what's at the pinnacle. Okay? If there's an up, there's a greatest up. That's one way of thinking about it. What's the nature of the greatest up? Well, in Toltoy's vision and Jacob's vision, that's not an answerable question. So, here's another way of thinking about it. The good, the highest good recedes as you approach it. Otherwise, you'd exhaust it. And you're not going to exhaust it. No matter how good you get, you're not done. And maybe even at the end of your journey, you're as far away from the pinnacle as you were when you started. And you might think, well, that's hopeless. It's like, no, not exactly. You wouldn't want it to be exhaustable cuz then you could be finished. Now, you kind of understand this in your own life, you know, cuz you can work to improve your circumstances and then you can improve them. But you don't want to be done. You want to now in your improved circumstance have a vision of how you can improve your circumstances, right? And then when you improve them again, your circumstances and your character, let's say, then hopefully you'll be wise enough and well situated so that you can see the next step. And why would you assume that that has uh suffering doesn't seem to have a limit. Why would the ability to move away from suffering, let's say, have a limit? Okay. So the hypothesis in the vision of Toltoy in the vision of Jacob is that that which is it the highest place is beyond our comprehension. It moves out of our field of understanding. But that doesn't mean it isn't real. It just means that it's beyond us. Now you see this insistence occurs repeatedly in the biblical texts. And this is an important thing to understand if you're trying to wrestle with the idea of religious belief. I believe in God. I don't believe in God. It's like, what do you mean by God? Exactly. The atheist types, they'll parody that. It's like the old man with a beard in the sky. It's like that's an image. It's not the reality that's portrayed in the biblical texts. It's an image. It's a characterization. It's a fragmentary characterization. Why do I say that? Well, it's simple. All you have to do is read the text and you figure that out. So I'll give you some examples and these are relevant to the notion of what's at the pinnacle. So Moses encounters the divine twice directly and then multiple times peripherally but in a visionary manner at least twice. The first time both of these episodes are very famous almost everyone knows them even in secular society. The first time is when he encounters the burning bush. So now the situation there Moses is has killed someone in Egypt kind of impulsively and he's had to run away. So it's not a great beginning and he's like an older adolescent when that happens and he leaves Egypt because word of his actions gets out. He's kind of impulsive and a little bit tempted by power. That's Moses' pattern of sin and it recurs repeatedly throughout his life. He leaves Egypt and he goes to Midia Midian. He he he joins the Midianites [snorts] and uh he gets married and he establishes an adult identity and he he likes his father-in-law who's a Midianite priest and he likes his wives. I think he has two wives and he's become an adult. And so that's a transformation, right? An upward transformation. He's become an ordinary responsible adult and good for him. That's better than impulsive, power-seeking juvenile. And so and so now he's a shepherd in in this new land that he's occupied. And that's a demanding job. It's a responsible job. You have to take care of these sheep. And they're sheep. They're not that bright. And so you have to pay attention to them. And they're vulnerable, the lambs in particular, and edible. And that's a big problem when there's wolves and lions about, which there were plentifully at that time in that part of the world. And so if you're a shepherd, you have to be the sort of person that can guard the vulnerable from the predator. It's a good definition of what a man is, by the way. And so, well, that's why that's why the shepherd is a recurring image that's associated with redemption in the biblical text. A a shepherd isn't a high status job, but it's a hard job and it needs to be done. And it's also emblematic of a certain pattern of of of of ordinary heroism. And the the value of the shepherd is indicated, for example, in the fact that Christ is often represented as a shepherd, but also that the news of Christ's birth is first revealed to shepherds and low status shepherds at that. And so, and David, of course, King David is a shepherd. And so, and why a shepherd? Well, I said why? Because if you're a shepherd, you have to be the person who can take out the real predators. So, that's a monstrous element, but who protects the most vulnerable. And and that is what a that is what a man does if he's a man. That's that's perfect definition of being a man. Might not be exhaustive, but it's it's dead on the money. And it's what women look for in men. They look for men who have a monstrous element so they can keep the real monsters at bay, but who have associated with that that capacity to protect and serve. And that's a tough set of opposites to bring together. So Moses is a shepherd and good for him. He's an adult and you know, he could live his life as a shepherd, let's say. But but one day he's wandering around by a mountain which is where the messages mountains connect the earth and the heavens. And so it's very frequently the case that because the mountain is up and heaven is up and up is good and up is towards the light and up is towards the heavens and so the mountain is a place where earth stretches up to the heaven. That's a place where revelation can be received. That's its symbolic significance. And Moses is by the mountain and something attracts his attention. Okay, so that's a good thing to know. Something attracts his attention because things attract our attention, right? And in some ways independent of us, you know, it's not exactly the case that you can decide what's going to attract your attention. Sometimes it seizes you. Well, and then a a very tricky question arises in consequence of that realization. It's like, well, if it's not you, maybe you're attending to something despite yourself. That's often what happens. For example, if you fall in love with the wrong person, it's like, well, what's gripping you? It's not you. You're thinking, man, I wish I could get out of this. It's like, it's not you. What is it? That's a hard question. Okay, so Moses is being a shepherd and minding his own business and something captures his attention and he makes a decision which is a decision we all make all the time. His decision is he's going to go investigate what captures his attention. Now that's worth thinking about, right? Because that story tells you how to establish a relationship with the divine is that you watch while you're about your ordinary business and you see what captures your attention. Now it might be something that calls to you. It interests you. It makes you enthusiastic or it might something that pulls at the heartstrings of your conscience. But it makes itself manifest with a kind of independence and it presents itself to you. Now you do not have to pay further attention. Maybe you're intrigued by something. Maybe you maybe you have a dream of starting a new business, let's say, and you have a kind of an ordinary job and you're feeling a little constrained by it and you've got this dream and you're interested in this new possibility and you can just put that aside. But then then what? Well, then you forgo the opportunity of relationship with what compels you forward. Now, that's a dangerous thing to do because life is hard and if you don't have a relationship with what compels you forward, then you have suffering without meaning. And if you turn away enough times from what compels you forward because you want to remain ordinary, let's say, you want to remain as a shepherd, let's say, then all of what calls you forward will vanish. And that is not a good idea. And that's not what Moses does. Moses goes off the beaten path to investigate. Now, this isn't a forest fire, right? It's a burning bush. It's not even a tree. It's a bush. It's not that big. So, he could ignore it, but he doesn't. He goes off the beaten path and he investigates. Okay. So, what does that mean? Well, a bush is a living organism. It's a small tree. Let's say a tree is a symbol of life. Partly because it's alive. Partly because life has a branching quality. Like all the blood vessels in your body are treelike. All the neural structures in your brain are treelike. The genetic history of an organism is treelike. And a tree is alive. And so why would it be burning? Well, because alive things burn. That's metabolism. Everything that's alive is on fire. I think when you fall in love with someone, you see them on fire. everyone else is. You're blind to everyone else. Like you're blind to other people's children in a way. Your your own children are on fire for you if you love them. It's because you see them properly. You see them accurately and so you're compelled by them. That's the burning bush phenomena. Phenomena. That word. It's from the Greek thigh. That means to to shine forth. That's what phenomena means. Now, if you watch, you'll see that in your life, things shine forth. They call because they grip you. They grip your interest and then you can you have a decision to make. You can forgo that interest or you can investigate. That's a quest. Moses investigates. Now he gets closer and closer to this object of interest. So imagine that's what you do when you start to take something that interests you seriously. That's what a scientist does who's curious about some minor phenomenon, hypothetically minor. And so he decides to focus his attention on it. And he studies that phenomenon for years. And as he studies his knowledge of it grows and grows and his understanding of the world deepens and becomes more profound. And if he's committed to that, then he'll get to the bottom of things and figure things out. And that's what happens to Moses. He interacts with this burning bush. He gets closer and closer to it. Then he realizes he's on sacred ground. What does that mean? He gets to the depths. What's the moral things that attract your attention? It's the deep is calling to you in the guise of the things that attract your attention. They'll glimmer to begin with and they might even be trivial initially. If you take them seriously and you dive in, you'll go farther and farther down into the structure of the world itself. And that's how you learn deeply. That's how you become an expert. And that's what Moses does. And he takes off his shoes while he's doing this. And that's to signify his transformation of identity. Shoes are a symbol of identity like like work boots or dance slippers. He takes off his shoes because he's going to be going somewhere new. He's going to be being someone different, which is what will happen to you if you establish a relationship with beckons to you. And so the culmination of that process is that the voice of the voice of the divine speaks to Moses. He gets to the bottom of things. And that's what people do when they take what beckons to them seriously. They get to the bottom of things. They and they become the sort of person whose words have weight because they know what they're talking about. And God who speaks from the depths of the bush tells Moses that he's going to become a leader and that he is going to speak to the Pharaoh, the tyrant, and he's going to free the slavish Israelites and lead them to the promised land. He's going to take them on a journey. He's going to take them on a quest. He's going to aim them upward. And Moses says, "Why will anyone listen to me?" And the answer to that is God says, "Why?" The voice that speaks to Moses says, "Tell them I sent you." And Moses has had that experience. And the ground on which he's standing when he speaks is firm. And so his words are compelling in the way that the words of someone who speaks compellingly and is believable are compelling. And you might ask, well, why is that? And the answer is, well, it says in the gospels that Christ spoke as one with authority, right? And that his words were compelling. Well, there's a reason there's a reason that words are compelling. And the moral of the story of Moses is that words are compelling in precise proportion to their connection with what's deepest. Right? And that's that's a very hard thing to dispute. So Moses establishes a relationship with the divine and that's what makes him into a leader. And there's leader is defined in that text. A leader is someone who stands up against tyranny and who frees those who are enslaved. That's always true, right? Always. That's what you do for yourself if you stop tyrannizing yourself. That's what you do with your family if you stop tyrannizing them. That's what you do with your children if you encourage them not to be slaves. That's how you set your culture right. It's always the case that the leader is he who delves deeply into something, establishes a relationship with what's fundamental, faces down the tyrant, and brings the slaves on a journey towards the promised land. That's a definition of leadership. Okay? So that's an idea about the divine. So that's a characterization in part of what's at the top of the rope that Toltoy saw or the top of the ladder that Jacob envisioned. Okay, it's just one characterization. It's not total. Now here's here's another example. So, at one point, Moses, who's worked very hard in the service of of his people, he's rewarded by God, and God says it that he'll get a chance to see God. Now, he's already sort of seen him a bit in in the burning bush episode, but it's a little more complete vision this time, but uh it's still not very complete cuz God puts Moses between like two cliffs so that he can only see out a crack and then he says, "I'll let you see my back after I've passed for quite a distance." And so Moses gets to peer out through these two cliffs and see God as he's passed by. And well, why is the story set up that way? Well, it's to point to the same reality that we already described is that what's at the pinnacle of up what's at the top of everything, so to speak, is not comprehensible, right? It's beyond you. It's it's it's not it's something you can establish a relationship with, but whose final comprehension is exceeds the capacity of even a prophet like Moses. So you have to remember this when you're talking about God, let's say, and about your belief. It's like, what is this God that you believe in? Well, the biblical insistence in the final analysis is that there's a that the essence of the divine is beyond comprehension. And that's no different than the claim that there's no limit to up as you move upward, right? And it's no different than the idea in a way that at the base of material reality itself is an impenetrable mystery. the foundations of the world from a material perspective. The nature of the foundations exceeds your comprehension just as the nature of the ultimate divine exceeds your comprehension. Now, that doesn't mean that you can't establish a relationship with it. Right? Now, much of what the biblical texts do is describe that relationship. They describe it as covenantal, for example, that it's a contractual relationship. It's a deal. It's a bargain. And the bargain is something like this. It's likely a bargain that you act out to some degree. We assume that if we do well, we'll do if we conduct ourselves properly, we'll do well. Right? That's sort of the essence of faith. You could say that's the essence of faith in the goodness of being itself. And you wouldn't you wouldn't do well if you didn't believe that in some fundamental way. You're willing to bargain. you're willing to take your bet, especially once you decide to be good. Because your bet is, well, if I'm good, then the world will sort itself out properly around me, within me, and around me. But you don't know. You don't know. That's why faith is necessary. There's there's no way of determining whether that's going to happen before you do it. Just like there's no way of determining how your marriage is going to go before you get married, right? You you have to stake yourself on the game. And you do that in this contractual manner. Okay. So now I want to build another ladder that's associated with identity and it should shed light on the identity of men and women and the identity of the divine in the relationship. Okay. So for a long time in the west we've had a liberal idea of identity and I I mean classic liberal identity classic liberal conceptualization and the conceptualization is that the fundamental reality of the person man and woman is the individual. Now there's truth in that but it's truth that only holds in a certain condition. There are preconditions for that being a tenable hypothesis. There are preconditions, social preconditions, contractual preconditions that must be in place before the decision to focus on the individual at the level of interaction, individual interaction or society works. Now, when the Scottish Enlightenment types conjured up classic liberalism, they conjured it up within the confines of a society that had very profoundly established Judeo-Christian roots. That was the that was what that was the ecosystem in which the liberal philosophy emerged and flourished and whether it can flourish in the absence of that underlying structure is doubtful. So now we need to think about what that underlying structure might be. That would be the structure that allowed your founding fathers to say we hold these truths as self-evident. what made them self-evident. It means everyone takes them for granted. That means there's a social contract in place that's so profound and deep that there are certain propositions, what is a woman, for example, that everyone takes for granted without further discussion. And that means that society has to be structured in a certain manner so that that agreement can take place. And that structuring was a consequence of the propagation of Judeo-Christian ideas throughout the West for 1500 years or more. And that's all shaky now, which is why we have intense debates about the nature of the individual. So let's investigate the individual a bit that the nature of man and woman. So we could build a person from the bottom up. So you say, well, there's there's a level of analysis that characterizes you at the subatomic realm. It's a mysterious level, but you partake in that. There are people who believe that your consciousness itself is a quantum phenomena. I have no idea if that's true. My point is is that down into the material world, you exist at levels. You exist at the quantum level. You exist at the subatomic level, at the atomic level, at the molecular level, at the level of the cell, at the level of the organ, then at the level that we perceive. And then you might say, well, that's that that's the whole story. That's not the whole story. That's foolish. I'll give you an example why. So when when psychotherapy had its origins, it was it was a very liberal enterprise. It focused on the individual. So the idea would be your mental health is a consequence of how you're structured internally, how your psyche is structured, what's inside you. You could even think a variant of that would be you're psychologically healthy if your brain is healthy. And obviously there's some truth in that because you can develop a brain tumor and it can derange your perceptions and your behaviors extremely significantly. But then as the psychotherrapeutic enterprise proceeded, there were people who started to object to that conceptualization because they noticed that well you could find a family where one person was really not doing well and if you analyze the dynamics of the family you'd find something like well that let's call him Hunter that person bore the brunt of all the pathology of the family. Yes, it'd be good if that was funny instead of true. And so then the right level of analysis for that situation wasn't necessarily the problems of that individual, although those were relevant. The right level of analysis would be the dynamic within the family. Well, why? Well, let's think about your identity. It's like if you're married, what's the difference between you and your wife or husband? Like why why would you why would you assume that you're different? Like I mean the the insistence in a sacrificed marriage is that you become one thing. And and that isn't how liberal types think. And and I mean most of us in so far as we're classic liberals because we have a notion of us as separate individuals. But it's a weird idea because let's assume that your marriage is permanent and which is a marriage is supposed to be. It means that person is there with you all the time right right to the end of your life and your identity is going to be characterized to a great degree in consequence of the pattern of interactions that you have with your wife or your husband like continually. And so to think of you and your identity as somehow not a subset of that coupling that's it's just not reasonable. It's so that your boundaries if you're an individualistic liberal your boundary is your skin. But that completely that's completely belied by the fact that if you're married your wife is as important as you are to you. And why? Well, because you're the quality of your experience is absolutely dependent on one another because you're continually it's like you're playing tennis, right? It there's no sense thinking about yourself as the only play person playing tennis if you're in a tennis game and the game is real. If you focus on the single player, you miss the game. And then it's not just the marriage obviously because well then you have kids and so to what degree is your identity then not primarily that of father. So that means you're nested inside a higher order system family. And is that not real? Is that not as real as what's happening inside you? And is it not the case that even your psychological stability is going to be absolutely dependent on the stability of your family. So that even if you're a well-constituted individual, if one of your children start to suffer terribly, that's going to affect you directly. And so that means your mental health isn't inside you. It's a consequence of the nature of the relationship that you have with your wife and your kids, let's say. But that's not all. There's wife and kids. Then there's community. There's career and the business that you're embedded in. There's your town, your city, your state, your nation. And then there's whatever your nation is founded on. Maybe that's the nation is embedded in the natural world. And then all of that's embedded in whatever everything is embedded in. And all of that is part of you. All of it equally, strangely enough. And so the notion that your identity ends at your physical boundaries as an individual, that's not right. And you can tell that it's not right in part because that identity is fragmenting in our culture. Right? That identity is not maintaining its coherence. And part of that is is that your identity as an individual cannot maintain its coherence in the absence of your relationship with other people. Obviously, why obviously? You can take the most antisocial people there are like serious criminals and you can punish them by isolating them. That tells you everything you need to know about people. You take people who are the least social people you can imagine and you can make them seriously miserable by making them alone. Well, that shows you how much we're individual. Now, you could say and should imagine now that you're in a well-constituted marriage, in a well- constituted family, in a town that's functional and stable, in a state that's abundant and and predictable, in a country that works, in a metaphysical reality that's what would you say? wise in a natural order that's sustainable, then you can be an individual. But that's a lot of preconditions that have to be met before you have that dynamic flexibility that enables you to focus here and now on you. And that those higher order levels of existence, let's say, they're predicated on a an ethos. They're a kind of game. There's There's a way you have to treat your wife for it to work. Ask her. She'll tell you. She'll certainly tell you. Even if she won't tell you the rules, she'll tell you when you break them, right? And and you want that. You want that. We're doing that to each other all the time. You know, it's like if I'm interacting with you in a way that you accept as desirable, then you'll want the interaction to continue. you'll be enthusiastically and voluntarily engaged and we'll progress and likely upward assuming that we're not doing something together that's nefarious. And we might not even know what the rules of that dynamic are. But we will know when one or the other of us breaks the pattern, right? There'll be a disjunction, an awkward pause in the conversation, let's say, right? Or a mutual misunderstanding, a breakdown of the relationship. And so here's here's a way of conceptualizing mental health. It's a musical conceptualization. You know how a note has its place in a phrase and in the melody and then in the piece as a whole? Well, that's how your that's your mental health. It's like if you're well constituted in your higher order relationships, then the harmony that exists is your mental health. That's not something you carry around inside you like a well-constituted psyche or a healthy brain. It's partly that because there's all those underlying levels that we talked about, right? Molecular, the molecular level, the level of the organ, that's all real, too. You want that whole thing to be har that's hard. You want that whole thing to be harmonious, right? From the quantum level to whatever's at the pinnacle, right? One nation under God. What is that superordinate reality in which everything's embedded? Well, we we saw a little bit of that in the in the story of Moses, right? Is Moses makes contact with that when he pursues what interests him and delves into it deeply. He establishes a relationship with that that transcendent reality that underlies everything. And one of the insistences in the biblical corpus is that that's one of the ways God that's this is a definition. The divine is what makes itself manifest in what calls you forward. Now that's a that's a wonderful thing to know and I think it's technically true. So, so imagine this is that imagine that you have a vague apprehension of these higher order systems in which you live right now. Some of that knowledge will be explicit and some of it won't be. You don't know exactly how to be a good brother, exactly how to be a good father or good husband. You have some sense of that and but you definitely let's say you want that. So now that's your aim that's your that's the a arrangement you make with the structure of the world. You want to be a better husband. Okay. So now what happens to you is that the pathway to better makes itself manifest as those things that grip your attention. That's what will happen. And then you could think about that as the voice of what's you can think about that as the voice of your higher aim conferring with you. And that's correct. And then you that's correct. That's how your perceptions work. That's how your emotions work. Once you establish your aim, your perceptions lay out the pathway in the world towards that aim. And your emotions come into alignment. So that if you're aiming at point A and you see yourself moving towards point A, that fills you with enthusiasm. And if you see that you're deviating from the path, that produces negative emotion. That's how emotions work. So your aim determines the structure of your perceptions and your emotions. Now once you've established a name, I'm going to be a better person. Then the spirit of that aim makes itself manifest to you in what grips your attention. Now you might say, well, what does that have to do with the divine? That's a hard question because it's the same question as well, what what relationship does your approximation of what's good have to what's ultimately good? Now, you wouldn't say none because then it wouldn't be good, right? I mean, if you're if you're aiming at the good, you've established some proximal relationship with what's ultimately good. It's you're participating in that process. And then you don't know if what grips your attention or perhaps disturbs your conscience, you don't know how high up the ladder that message is coming from. Now, the story of Moses is predicated on the insistence that if you do this seriously, you'll establish contact with as much contact as is possible for you to withstand with what's actually at the highest point. Now you you kind of know this because you know that there are times when you're enticed forward into action say by something that really makes you feel committed. You think yeah this is for me. This is something I'd work for. I'd sacrifice for because work and sacrifice that's the same thing. This is something that would get me in out of bed in the morning even if I was miserable. So, so let me tell you the other let's see I'll tell you the story of Abraham a little bit of the story of Abraham because it makes this clear. Okay. So now what have we done in terms of answering these questions? So, I made the case that we're connected to what's above us, so to speak, in this manner that speaks of our nesting within higher order structures, right? Marriage, family, town, city, state, nation, natural order, and then whatever that's all grounded in. That's the that's that structure that Toltoy envisioned that sustained him above the abyss. And you know this is true. Like when you're doubtful about your own validity, let's say, which was Tolto's situation, why wouldn't you make reference in your own imagination to the service that you've been for your wife or your children or your community? Why wouldn't you justify your own miserable existence to yourself by remembering how you were in service to what was highest? That is what you do. That's what gets you through a long night. And why the the biblical insistence is that it's the establishment of that upward oriented relationship with what's transcendent that does characterize the relationship between the individual and the divine. And I can't I can't see anything wrong with that reasoning. It seems to be how things are structured. It seems to be how our perceptions work. It seems to be how our emotions work. And so, okay, so let's let's return to the questions. What's the nature of man and woman? Well, we we exist at multiple levels from the microcosm to the macrocosm. And we're related we're not only related to everything at all of those levels, we're we're actually constituted at all of those levels. That's why you're a citizen of your country. Is that not part of your identity? So we list we exist at all those levels and then well what's the nature of that existence? Well the higher levels are beyond us. They're transcendent. Do we have a relationship with that? Well as a citizen of your country you certainly have a relationship with that. Do you have a relationship with your aim? Well, if you don't, then there's no way it's going to manifest itself in the world. If it doesn't shape the way that you see and think and feel, then that's a noner for you. Your aim better shape you because otherwise you're not going to pursue it and you're certainly not going to attain it. What's the nature of the divine? The divine is the ineffable up. And that's a definition, you see, and this is a good thing to know when you're plagued by religious doubt. Like, I I don't know whether I believe in God. Well, do you believe in the good? And do you believe in the good that could get better? And is there an end to that? And wouldn't you characterize what's at the pinnacle as the place towards which all good moves? And then what are you going to say that's not real? If it's not real, then why are you doing anything? Because the whole presumption of your action is that the sacrifices that you're making move you towards somewhere better. I mean, unless you're working at cross purposes to yourself, right? You can work to make yourself miserable. You can work to turn everything into hell. But assuming you're not doing that, you're aiming up under the presumption that if you aim up that up exists and that you can continue with that process. And so, why would that be without end? Why would it be without end? And that's Jacob's vision and that's that's Toltoy's vision and that's embedded in the notion of the burning bush and it's part of the characterization of the divine. And it's very useful to understand especially when you also understand that that is what calls to you that you can make that connection is that what I I've laid this out psychologically partly in this book. You do get intuitions about how to act as a consequence of your relationship to your higher aims. That's how the intuitions work. Well, why? Of course, that's how they work, right? I mean, if you're if you're imagining establishing a restaurant, let's say you want to establish your own business, you're going to have a vision of the restaurant. If if you let yourself go there, and that's going to be this that'll become this city on the hill, let's say, hospitable city on the hill that you're aiming at. and you're going to think, "Well, I'm interested in that. It's gripping me." And then having established that as an aim, you're going to tell yourself when you're moving toward it, when you're not, that's how your emotions orient yourself. And you're going to have ideas that are related to the goal. What or or what good would your ideas be? And so, it's obviously the case that your intuitions are informed by your vision and your emotions are structured by your aim. And so then the logical conclusion to that is aim as highly upward as you can. That's what Christ tells his followers in the sermon on the mount. Right? It was actually an instruction manual of sorts. Christ says love God above all else. Okay? So what does that mean practically? It means whenever you do anything you do, start by aiming up. That's what Jacob does when he builds an altar sequentially. That's what Abraham does when he builds an altar and rekindles his covenant with God. He makes a decision at the beginning of every adventure to remember the aim. Well, and what should your aim be if you could have the aim you wanted? It's like, well, why not aim at what's highest? Like, what you'd aim at what's lowest? That's not a good plan. You know, if you're going to start a restaurant, you might as well start one that people want to go to. And then that, you know, one one of the insistences in the Old Testament is that hospitality is a divine virtue. Well, if everyone made everyone else welcome, then the world would turn into the Garden of Eden. And so what attracts you in your vision of let's say a hospitable cafe is a walled garden because that's what paradise means. That's hospitable. And that's the divine itself laying itself out to you as an ambition within the confines of your own vision. And that's a great thing to know. And as far as I can tell, it's just true. Like, it's true theologically, it's true philosophically, it's true biologically, it's true practically, it's true materially. That's just how things are. And the contrary hypothesis is your aim has nothing to do with your perception, which is a staggeringly foolish proposition. And that neither your aims nor your perceptions have anything to do with your ideas or your vision. It's like, yeah, no, that's look, I'll give you an example. Let's say you're fighting with your wife. An example of possession. Let's say you're fighting with your wife or your husband and you're resentful. So that's your aim is to express your resentment. And so that's what you're orienting yourself towards. And so what speaks to you in that moment? The voice of the spirit of resentment obviously is that possession. Let it possess you for a year or two and you'll find out. And so yes, definitely 100% the spirit of your aim informs your emotion and your perceptions. That's a hell of a thing to understand as it means too in part if the world isn't laying itself out to you as a space of expansive opportunity then perhaps your aim is wrong. soul. I said I would talk to you about Abraham, but I won't because I'm out of time. And so, if you want to know about Abraham, you have to read this book, apparently. So, thank you very much everyone. See, you are a hot crowd. All right, Tim. Question time. >> Are you good? >> Are you on? Tammy's microphone needs to be turned on. You could ask me a question and I'll What? Oh, >> there we go. >> All right. >> Yeah, lots of questions. >> Okay. Okay. Let's see. My sister has fallen victim to the woke virus. How would I go about closing the distance she is between herself and her family? Close the distance between herself and her family because she's I think getting further and further away from them. Well, here's a good rule. If people aren't listening to you, stop talking. Okay? So, I I mean I mean something very I mean something very specific by that. It's you could think about it as a strategy, but it's not a manipulative strategy. It's it's an existential strategy. It's a variant of the idea that Christ puts forward in the gospels, which is do not cast pearls before swine. And I'm not associating your sister with swine, by the way. I'm and I I'm seriously not. I I want to delve into the meaning of that statement. There's no sense offering what will be misused. See, if you're if you're talking to someone and they're not listening, you aren't where you think you are, you've got the terrain wrong. And this is something I really learned as a therapist because you want to keep the space where the dialogue is progressing active. And if as a therapist you make a verbal move and the person resists resistance in psychotherapy or circumvents the topic or or doesn't use the offering as an invitation to continue to play, then you said the wrong thing. You said the wrong thing. This is a really useful thing to know. It's like you're trying to make your point and you're not going anywhere. It's like you're not you're not where you think you are. You're not talking to who you think you're talking to. God only knows who you're talking to. The person you're talking to might not even know who they are at that moment or what possesses them, so to speak. If you're talking to someone who's ideologically possessed, the probability that you're talking to the ideology is extremely high. And good luck with that. And and I mean that technically because you you can tell this because if there are 10 people and they have the same ideology, you could talk to any of them and you'd get the same answer. So you're obviously not talking to the person. You're talking to the ideology. And the probability that an ideology will listen to you is especially if you insist it's that forgive it. Like going directly at it is probably is more likely to fortify it than anything else. So, what can you do instead? Well, I would say in that situation, don't offer any of your opinions. None. Zero. Just take yourself out of the game completely. And instead, listen and watch. Remember your aim. You have an aim. You said your aim in the question, right? Your aim is to reestablish a relationship with your sister. Okay. Now, you have no idea how you're going to be able to do that. And the probability that you'll do that by talking her out of her ideology is, well, you already know that's basically zero. That hasn't worked. The family's fractured. That's not working. So, you don't know what to do, but you know what you want. Okay. So, now you're well, you look for an opening, right? You maybe you invite her for dinner. And then you watch and you think, you watch and you see when is what we're doing working and when is what we're doing not working. And you try to find your pathway, right? And you're searching. That's a quest. It's like what's the quest for? I want my sister back. You got to remember that. I want my sister back. I I don't want to win the argument. I don't want to talk her out of anything. You can want that, but then you're not going to get your sister back because you're not going to get all the things you want. You don't want to sacrifice the lower thing, you're going to win the argument to the higher thing, which is you want your sister back. Now, if you really want your sister back and you pay enough attention, she'll tell you how to get her back. She won't even be able to help it. So, one of the there's something I learned as a therapist. This is so interesting. It's so cool. Well, there's two things, I guess, that go together. One is that if you're bored by a conversation, you're the dull one. Okay? So, if you find people boring, it's like you should take a look in the mirror because what you're doing is reducing all your interactions with other people to only that which is trit. And you're doing that to protect yourself for some reason. Because if you listen to people, and I don't care who they are, if you listen to people, they're so interesting that you want to run away screaming because people are very weird. They're very strange and they're they're full of snakes and twists and bends. And that's as true for so-called simple people as it is for sophisticated people. And so you want to engage it with the person in a way that's that keeps the fascination alive. And then you want to listen because if you really listen, they'll tell you what they're up to. They won't be able to help it because if you run across someone who listens, especially if no one's listening to you, you will tell them everything. And as soon as someone tells you everything, then you you can figure out how to get them back. And so, and that works like it might take a while. And it might take a while before your sister trusts you. That's for sure. And what'll happen is, you know, you'll invite her over and hopefully she'll come or you'll say to her, "Look, is there some circumstance under which I could meet you?" Like, could we meet? Can you want to come over for dinner? Well, no, I don't think I can do that. You know, you voted for Donald Trump. It's like, okay, you don't say, well, you know, don't you like Trump, too? It's like, that's kind of obvious. I think you we already know the answer to that question. Um then you might say well you know would you meet me for coffee in the morning for like five minutes and see how that goes. And if she still says no then you might say well is there any circumstances under which we could speak or meet any well and if she says no well you know wait you say look the offer's on the table and I'll I'll phone you in three months and we'll try again. You know, like you got to find a place where you can meet. And then when you meet, you got to listen. And she's not going to trust you. And if you listen enough, she'll tell you something private. And then she'll be really mad at you and probably won't talk to you for like 3 weeks again cuz you know, you sucked her in and and and that'll make her mad. And so then you'll have to kind of start, not quite again, but sort of again. And but if you keep that up, she'll start talking to you. And then when she talks to you, she'll tell you what she needs. And if she tells you what she needs, then you can deliver it. And I don't mean in a way that's going to violate your own integrity. That's not helpful. And then you can get her back. But you don't do that by winning the political argument. That's for sure. It's not a political argument. If your sister is willing to sacrifice your relationship with her to the political, this is nothing to do with politics. It's way deeper problem, way deeper problem than that. And so, you're certainly not going to solve it by discussing the political. Why do you not cast pearls before swine? Because they make no use of them. That it's the wrong it's the wrong place for treasures. And so this is a good thing to know. If you're talking to someone and they're not listening, it's like, "Shut up. You're not where you think you are. You're not who you think you are to that person. And that person is not who you think they are. You're in the wrong place delivering the wrong message to the wrong person." And so what do you do? You do what Tammy said at the beginning of her talk. You pay attention. You think, "Okay, who the hell are you? And what is that's what I do to journalists when they start torturing me. It's like, you know, I thought you were a journalist, but you're not. There's something wrong with you. Now I have to treat you like there's something wrong with you. That's annoying, but you made it necessary. So Tammy resolved a relationship with her sister by listening to her. Tammy's sister had the wrong idea about her. Really like an old >> She was a lot older than me. >> She was a lot older than me and she lost her fiance when she was 21 and I was like 13. And then she was probably 40. And we saw each other as regularly as I saw anybody else in my family, but we always ended up in some sort of misunderstanding. And we had just found out that my mom had dementia. And we gave my sister a cognitive test and it looked like she was developing the same problem. And I said to George, uh, I need to do something because, you know, I need to do something. >> You want my sister back? >> Yeah, I want my sister back. Time is wasting. And he said what he thought would work would be to listen. So I didn't say anything for the rest of the weekend. Really, I just listened and I didn't get in any more trouble. So that was good. And at the end of the weekend, we went whale watching. We were on Vancouver Island. We went whale watching. At the end of the day, we went to a restaurant uh with my aunt and Jordan and I. And we sat down and she started to tell me who she thought I was. And she was saying you were I was dependent on my parents, that they did everything for me, >> that you got everything you ever wanted without any effort. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I was kicking Jordan under the table. I wasn't saying anything. I was like, "Wow, just listen." >> There's no defender. You didn't defend yourself at all. >> No. And then at the end of that, she said, "You know, you're a really good mother." So, I think she had never said out loud what she had been thinking. Maybe I hadn't given her a chance. And uh then we got along very well. She the next year she said the same thing, the same thing >> story. >> And then at the end said, "You're a good mother." And then I never heard that story again. And then we had 20 really good years. >> So it works. >> Yeah. It was so it was very cool. It's very cool to watch it because Tam's sister when we were sitting in this restaurant really took a strip off her but it was so like I knew Tammy and her sister had formulated a picture of Tammy like 20 years ago that was like the picture a 19-year-old might formulate and had never really questioned it since. And it was so unlike what Tammy was like that it was like she was talking about someone who wasn't even there. And so it was even hard to take offense to. It's like that's what you think. And then at the end of it, as as Tammy pointed out, she sort of shook her head and realized that actually bore virtually no relationship whatsoever to the reality that she was actually observing. And she would have never figured that out if you would have said anything to defend yourself, right? You had to let her tell the whole story. She didn't know what she thought of Tammy until she said it. And then it was preposterous. And then it was obvious that it was outdated and useless and not accurate. But it would have never that would realization would have never come if you would have started defending yourself because she would have just backed into a corner and you would never heard what she thought. >> She was very traumatized you know when she was 21 and that just solidified in time. That was where our relationship was. She must have looked at me at 13 not having had any tragedy in my life and felt some jealousy or you know for cuz she was in such pain and but she never talked about it until that moment. So that was very interesting. >> And that only took three days. >> Yeah. Three days. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It was amazing. It was amazing. So, okay. Well, that's that question. Good luck with your sister. >> It's a good It's a mystery to crack. Hey, like you can do it. You can do it. You got to >> It's like taming a wild animal, you know? You got to seriously You got to You got to be awake and see where the pathway is. Are we getting along or not? Like, can I adjust myself? Is it time to shut up? It's time to watch. Don't take That's right. Don't take it personally. >> No. >> Yep. >> Okay. New question. >> Yep. I'm newly engaged and my fiance is here. That's a good thing. [laughter] Uh, I'm newly engaged and my fiance is here with me tonight. What advice would you give us as we enter into our marriage together? Tell tell each other the truth. Like right from right from the beginning. And if you've got lies happening now, just get them get them out. Get them sorted out. Maybe not all at once the same night, you know, but look, you want to build your house on a firm foundation. And lies are not a firm foundation. And the problem with building your house on lies is that when the storms come, your house will fall. That is what will happen because the storms will come and the probability that the storms will destroy you is proportionate to the instability of your foundation. And so you build your relationship on the truth. And the truth will set you free. That's the promise. And how could it be otherwise? Because you want to adapt to the world and to your partner. And you adapt to the world by admitting to the existence of the world. and conforming to its contours. And you do that to each other. You have to say, "So, here's an example of the truth. So, let's say I'm having a scrap with Tammy about something." And, [snorts] you know, some of that scrap is merely going to be the fact that the two of us are confronting an actually difficult problem. Maybe it's like how to discipline our three-year-old son. Cuz, you know, kids are tricky. They're full of tricks. They're complex. Every child is an individualized relationship. Exactly how to do it right is very very difficult. And so you might have a disagreement. You're likely to have a disagreement merely because you're trying to think it through. Right? I mean, if you're trying to figure out how to deal with your the bratty behavior, newly emergent bratty behavior of your three-year-old, you're going to have arguments in your own head about what to do. So why wouldn't your wife have an opinion that's different than yours? And unless you know what to do, which would mean he wouldn't have had the problem to begin with, you should probably listen. Okay? And so you want to listen. You want to tell each other the truth. And you also want to you want to do that in a manner that is revealing. So for example, here's here's a something to understand if you have a fight because you'll have a fight. Now you'll have a fight partly because you have things to fight about. you have things to think through partly because you're both stupid and ignorant and you want to win and it'll be contaminated with your own pathology but some of it's just the fact that you have difficult things to deal with as a couple. Okay. So now if you're having a scrap with your partner and it's kind of auguring in one of the things you can do, here's two things you can do that really work. One is you can separate and you can go your own way for a minute or two knowing you're going to come back together because you shouldn't run away from the fight. You can go to your corner so to speak like boxers and you can think I'm you know certain that my wife is like 95% wrong in this argument but there's some possibility that you know I contributed to it like maybe 5%. Maybe sometime. How? Now, you have to want the answer to that question, which is very annoying because you really don't want to know the answer because you want her to be wrong cuz that would be convenient. Except that if your wife is always wrong, then you're married to someone who's always wrong. And that's really annoying unless you always want to be right. So, you don't really want her to be wrong. Certainly not all the time. And you don't want to defeat her all the time. Unless you want to live with someone who's permanently defeated. Well, then you can be a martyr and you can proclaim to your friends how terrible it is to live under the weight of this defeated person. And you know that's fun, but it's a hell of a way to have a marriage. And so anyways, you're sitting there and you think about the stupid thing you did and then you can go tell your partner the stupid thing you did to contribute to the fight and she can tell you the stupid thing that she did and then you're both stupid and then you can have a talk and maybe you can sort it out. And that's a good thing to do. You know, look to your own sin, so to speak. And then the other thing you can do is you can tell the person what you want. It's like say you're embroiled in a fight with your partner. It's like we've done this like very bluntly. It's there anything I could say at this moment that would hypothetically satisfy you, right? And and that could be a genuine offer. It's like use your imagination for a second. We're having a fight. Clearly, you want something. Clearly. Now, I don't know if I could give it to you or even would, but I might want to know what it is. And so then it's up to the other person to think, okay, obviously I want something. What is it? And that's annoying because what what your partner will inevitably say is something like, if you love me, you don't know. And that's like, see, everyone's heard that. Everyone's heard that. And that what that really means is shut up and leave me alone. That's what that means. I don't want to think about it. It's like, no. It's like I would like to give you what I what you want. Maybe if if I knew what it was. And so that's a worthwhile exercise. It's like if you're angry with each other, you're going to try to fight and win. And that's not a good idea. But you could sit there and think, okay, if this situation turned out the way I would want it to, you know, if I was treating myself right and I wanted my marriage to work and I want to treat my wife right, what would what would that look like? And you'll get that answer because your vision falls into alignment with your aim. And then if your if your partner will tell you, then you can you can say the words they want to hear. But then there's rules about that, too. It's like, here's the rule. It's like, okay, I'm going to try to give you what you need, but I'm not very good at it. I'm not good at it because I'm stupid, which is why I didn't know what you needed to begin with. Um, and I'm going to do it badly the first time I do it. And awkwardly, and maybe somewhat falsely because she's going to think, well, if if I have to tell you what to say, then it's not real. It's like, well, it's not perfect, but maybe the 50th time I do it all have practiced enough, so I got it right. I'm dead serious about that. You know what I mean? It's like I used to have people who were having trouble in their marriage in my clinical practice and I'd say, "Well, when was the last time you guys went on a date?" And they'd just like roll their eyes and like that was they thought this is a stupid therapist. That's what they both agree on. This is a stupid therapist. Now, there's one thing we could agree on. And then often they'd begrudgingly agree to go have a date. And the whole plan was to go have like the worst date in the world so they could come back and triumphantly report how miserable the date was to prove that they had the stupidest therapist in the world. And [laughter] you know, and I can understand that because they're all frustrated because they hadn't had like a good date for like 10 years. And so they're really pretty frustrated. and unwilling even to hope. But you know, if you haven't been getting along very well and you go to try to have a date, if it isn't a complete bloody catastrophe, it might be a step forward. And maybe if you do it 30 times, you'll you'll be it'll sort of be 20% enjoyable, which is a lot more than zero. And if you did it a hundred times, maybe it'd be like 80% enjoyable. And maybe you could get good at it. And maybe because it's worth doing some math mathematics. So for example, let's say we'll get right to the heart of the matter. Let's say that you're going to make love with your partner twice a week for the next 40 years. So let's say if you're lucky and [laughter] really So that's 100 times 40. That's 4,000 times. Okay. So now you have to let each other know what you want. And that's going to be awkward. Like for a hundred times, that's a lot of awkwardness. But that's you got 3,900 times left. I'm dead serious. So, you know, let your partner know what the hell you want and and what you could jointly conjure up a vision of what the perfect romantic episode would look like. Like why not do that? You just sit and think about it. It's like if I could have what I wanted even once, what would that look like? What would that look like? And then, you know, you could ask your partner the same thing. If we had like a perfect date, what would that look like? And there's going to be some difference in opinion. And then you could like have a chat and think about how you could meld your visions together. And then you could go practice that stupidly a hundred times and at the end of it you'd be a hell of a lot better than you were at the beginning of it. And then you got 3,900 more times to get it right. And so try that. Try that with your partner once you're married. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Are we done? I guess we're done. Well, that's a high note. Tandon. All right, everybody.