Why HIV Progress is Under Attack Right Now!

We've seen the continued erosion of support for ending the HIV epidemic, both domestically here in the US, but also abroad through the dismantling of US aid, stripping funds and logistical support for PEPAR, the war being waged on anything considered DEI, undermining HIV science and data collecting, attacks on long-running critical HIV government programs such as ADAP or the AIDS drug assistance program, and more. 2026 seems to be a sobering inflection point that will determine what trajectory the HIV epidemic will take moving forward. Joining me today is someone with a unique perspective having worked both inside and outside of the US government. I'm Raif Dazzy. Thank you so much for tuning in. Today I'm going to chat with Harold Phillips, the CEO of ENMAC in hopes that we can get a better understanding of exactly what is happening in the world of HIV here in the US and abroad and gauge the near-term outlook. Harold Phillips currently serves as chief executive officer at ENMAC, formerly known as the National Minority AIDS Council, where he oversees the administration of policy, leadership, development, technical assistance programs, communications, and advocacy efforts to help address the disperate impact of the HIV epidemic on the minority community. Prior to joining ENMAC, Mr. Phillips served as the director of the White House Office of National AIDS Policy, or ONAP. In this position, he led the effort to set the administration's domestic HIV AIDS priorities to ensure America's response to the HIV epidemic was accelerated, comprehensive, and reflective of the lived experiences of those at risk of and living with HIV. Mr. Phillips held prior positions at the Health Resources and Services Administration's HIV AIDS Bureau, HERSA, and HAB. He was the deputy director of the Ryan White part B and AIDS drug assistance programs or ADAPP and worked with Ryan White HIV AIDS program recipients, planning councils, providers, and patients. Harold has a master's degree in urban and regional planning from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, an undergraduate degree from Kalamazoo College in Michigan, and he is a person living with HIV. Hey Harold, good to see you. How are you? >> Good to see you. Thanks for being thanks for having me out with you. Yes. >> I mean, thank you. Uh this is such a privilege and an honor. I've seen you multiple times at various conferences and meetings and stuff like that. So, it's nice to finally be able to to do this. >> Yeah. Finally. And we're both looking good in blue. We've been lots of different events together and seeing you online and the content that you're putting out there and really helping to normalize conversations about living with HIV. So, thank you for that work. >> Much appreciated. Thank you. Um, so I I'll start with the general question that I ask a lot of my interviewees, which is, "What is your assessment of the current state of the global HIV AIDS epidemic?" >> Well, you know, it's so interesting because this year marks our 45th anniversary of the CDC's first report of what became literally became known as AIDS. So, it's 45 years of the HIV movement this year. And you know, we've been at a point where we have new prevent HIV prevention tools such as long- acting injectables. We know that oral prep really works. We know that getting into treatment and staying into treatment and getting virally suppressed means that somebody can't pass HIV on to their sexual partners. And so, we've got the science, we've got the tools, we understand the medicine, they're easier to take. And yet we've got a government that is rolling back a lot of our progress or attempting to roll back a lot of the progress that we've made both in addressing the HIV epidemic and they're rolling back um the general appro science-based approach to public health. Um it's impacting us here in the United States. It's impacting countries in other places in the world. The president's emergency plan for AIDS relief has been one of the greatest successes of the United States in partnership with countries around the world in addressing the HIV epidemic and bringing their epidemics under control in many cases. And yet due to um our government, there have been service interruptions. There have been individuals who've had to go without their medications. There have been clinics closing around the world and it's been really threatening our progress. >> Okay. A sobering insight into the state of things. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one good thing is that, you know, last year the US Congress did put money back in the budget for our programs, but so we did get funding, but there were all of these interruptions and there was all this uncertainty that really did um create a mess and create havoc uh within um the HIV community um not only here but also around the world. Yeah, I think it's a little underappreciated just how important continuity is, not just for like services and, you know, making sure that especially with HIV treatment. I mean, you can't just like skip a month or two and then hop back on the train. It doesn't exactly work like that. Um, but all the wraparound services and then the science too. I mean there's so many like uh studies and research that was going on that you can't stop like you have to start over if you if you stop it. >> Absolutely. You know the research comm community was hit really hard with this and not and not just our research toward a vaccine or a cure. they were definitely hit hard but also something we call implementation science like what is the best way let's say to reach um people in rural areas or which is what's the best way to talk about HIV prevention to young girls in an urban setting you know those kinds of studies were really things that were being uh funded through our government but in partnership with community- based organizations on the ground and we would take some of those lessons learned learned and really try to bring them up to scale and help replicate them across the country and also across the globe. So, a lot of um that work also got interrupted and stopped um as a result of a lot of the changes last year. >> Okay. Gosh, there are so many different um uh routes that I want to go here and questions that I have for you. But uh before we dive even deeper, I would like to get an idea of like, you know, kind of where you came from, how did you get involved in HIV? >> Yeah. Wow. So if you really want me to go back like many a few decades um you know I I I think initially for me it's uh it's been an interesting journey um as sort of a a a young activist sort of involved in LGBTQ uh movements as well as um I was doing a lot of work in the reproductive health space and marching to pro protect women's rights to uh abortion access as needed um and health care. And then um and then the HIV epidemic came along and it really um became personal for me initially um when friends were getting sick and dying or friends were getting sick and weren't really saying what they were getting sick from. Um there was a lot of stigma and discrimination as well. um some of it's still pre prevalent today. But um that was uh extremely um upsetting and concerning. And I first started working on HOPWA issues, housing opportunities for people with AIDS um and and using my master's degree to enter into that space and to figure out how to provide rental assistance and shelter uh plus care to individuals living with HIV. And from there uh started my work uh at INMAC back in the day uh working with organizations and then later joined the government where I was working both with the health resource services administration and the Ryan White program and then leading EHE the ending the HIV epidemic initiative which then led me to working in the White House as the director of the office of national AIDS policy. Um and and also during those days and in that work also um part of my journey was my own serial conversion. And so my own personal experience then became part of how I thought about and approached policy and program decisions both on a federal and national level. >> Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. That's um >> that's really insightful. And did did your own diagnosis alter your perspective on what you were doing in any meaningful ways? >> Absolutely. Um I can remember um the moment I was doing some work post diagnosis and being hit with the realization that this wasn't just now about other people or people that I cared about. This was now also about me. I was looking at some data and I was thinking, you know, next year I'm going to show up in that data as a newly diagnosed individual. And and having to sit with the serious of that, but also thinking about it gave me in many ways it gave me a new fire and a new sense of urgency regarding the work. uh in that you know I I always cared about the work and was always passionate about it but once I serial converted it it really felt a lot more personal like this is about me too. This is about services. I am now part of this community in a very different way than previously. And so, um, I do feel like that did sort of help guide me and ground me in the work a little bit more and in a different way if that makes sense at all. >> Totally. Yeah. So, as you said before entering your role as CEO at ENMAC, you were the director of the Office of National AIDS Policy or ONAP at the White House during Biden's presidency. What can you give me a just an overview of what that experience was like? I know so many people have just have no idea of the inner workings and um especially being someone living with HIV and diagnosed I that just now that I'm thinking about it is so profound to have somebody actually living with HIV in such a a critical role. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for that. It it was um definitely the honor of a lifetime um to be chosen uh for that role. And and what that role does is the office of national aids policy or the ONAP director because we love our acronyms here in Washington. So the ONAP director in the White House is responsible for working with the domestic policy team uh in helping to shape the nation's HIV response. And so by that I mean we developed a national HIV strategy that President Biden released on his first World AIDS Day as president. And as part of that strategy, it called for departments within HHS, within HUD, the Department of Labor, uh, to all work together and coordinate and and sort of make sure their work was aligned with the president's goals for ending the HIV epidemic in the United States. It also served as a call to action for the academic community, the faith-based community, community- based organizations to all line up behind the president's strategy for ending the HIV epidemic in the United States. And so, it was a huge honor as a person living with HIV to help be a part of developing that strategy and figuring out how to move it forward. um and and helping to make sure the pre the community was informed about this strategy and that the community had a place in helping to figure out what should go into it. There was a lot of community input uh over those six months that we spent developing it too, >> right? And I know that the ending the HIV epidemic initiative must have been a large part of the overall strategy. Um, it's confounding because President Trump launched the initiative in his first term and now seems to be doing everything to oppose any progress in it. [laughter] >> What happened? Why >> is that the question helping make sense there? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, it is. It is conf it is um frustrating and and confounding all at the same time. So in 2019, like you said, pres then President Trump started the ending the HIV epidemic initiative. Um and and actually to his credit, he was the first president to say, "Hey, we can end this thing knowing that, you know, we have all the right tools both for care and treatment and for prevention." And as part of that, I'm going to put additional money into services designed to help people learn their status, get into care, additional money in prevention in communities, and we're going to focus on the areas of the country, including seven rural states that are most impacted by HIV. All good stuff. All great. And you know, and we were able to move that forward. And the program has been successful too, which is the thing that like gets me. The president in this administration continues to support the initiative. And I say that because it continues to show up in his budget. So back in April, early April, the president released his budget for 227. and and the president's budget is usually I you know people are like you know Congress really approves the budget and sets the budget but when a president releases a budget it really shows what he and his administration care about and what the priorities are and like you've been saying the ending the HIV epidemic initiative continues to show up in President Trump's budget. It continues to be and I think he and the people around him are aware that that initiative is part of his legacy good, bad or indifferent, it's part of his legacy and so it shows up. They also continue to support the Ryan White program and continue to flatf fund it where I think they get confused or there's a lack of understanding and this is where we need the community's help with making sure Congress continues to understand this is what's the role of HIV prevention and so he they keep sort of zeroing out or cutting down HIV prevention funding and I don't think that there's an understanding about how HIV prevention, the Ryan White Care Act, and [clears throat] the Ending the HIV epidemic initiative all fit together. You know, how we fund health care in the United States is this patchwork of different programs. And I don't think they quite get that in the Trump White House. Um, so we need the community's help to make sure that Congress understands it because last year, Congress did put the funding back for HIV prevention. And so which is great um but we still have this problem coming out of the White House. And I think that's the confusion that you sort of see and we sort of hear about when we look at what is the president supporting. And then also what is he saying you know because there are certain groups where HIV uh impacts those groups more than others. the LGBTQ populations, the transgender populations, and then there are other things that the administration are doing that lead to the eraser and disenfranchise of those communities that also doesn't line up with the initiative. So, yeah. So, it's a little schizophrenic here in Washington. >> Yeah. I I wonder on the prevention side of things you what you especially what you just mentioned with DEI and LGBTQ if there is some sort of because I've seen this sort of rhetoric play out before where for example the the idea of supporting something like prep um could be seen as encouraging like just gay sex- w without any kind of um discretion. And so prep is seen as this like enemy to puritanical Christian, you know, the reason why we're put on the earth to have to get married and have babies, for example. >> I wonder if that's kind of like a, >> you know what I mean? >> I you know, I I I think that is most definitely a part of it because we we've heard those same kind of arguments in the reproductive health space. So like myopristone is going to like encourage people to have random sex and with no consequences and you know without um you know folks getting pregnant which is studies have not shown that is that is true at all. Um, you know, it >> yeah, there are a lot of myths, a lot of mis misconceptions around HIV prevention and the tools that we have right now and and quite frankly, we need to do a lot of work to educate folks to really understand um and to get them, you know, to to really be in favor of of not only the understanding the effectiveness, but understanding that by preventing folks from acquiring HIV, we ser we save in long-term cost, cost of medication, cost of hospitalization, cost of care. And so it makes sense to invest in HIV prevention. >> And you mentioned community. Um what's the community's role? I remember when I went to AIDS watch for the first time last year and we were getting ready to go on the hill and we were doing our training and um there was really an emphasis on uh on those of us meeting with our congressional representatives to really utilize storytelling and how impactful that is. Do is that the same sort of kind of draw for community here? >> Absolutely. And I would say and I would encourage folks to not only think about, you know, storytelling and meeting with your members of Congress here in Washington, but at home, you know, this summer they're going to be doing a lot of town hall meetings back in congressional offices. Um, you know, we we joke here in Washington that often, you know, members of Congress get on planes on Thursday night and they leave town and go back to their districts uh or their home state over the weekend. They're there. And I think community has a great opportunity to go to those offices, to go to those town hall meetings, and to use storytelling to talk about the impacts. They really um need to understand how the decisions that they make here in Washington are impacting people at home. Um and so the people, the services, the families. Um, and I think being able to tell those stories is really important and impactful. Here in at INMAC, we try to when we have the opportunity to bring folks in to work with them to learn how to use their sto to use their stories and use their lived experiences to influence policy and program. That means so much more to members of Congress than just me, some dude here in Washington that may not vote for them because I don't live in their district or I don't live in their state and and I'm here talking policy and facts, but somebody who can give that lived experience about here's how this impacts me at home, that goes a long way. Okay, I want to talk more about ENMAC and the annual conference that you guys host and put on the also known as USCA or the United States Conference on HIV AIDS which is the largest HIV conference in the US. Um how considering all the things that we've been talking about h how do you see the role shifting this year and in years to come? What gaps are you guys trying to fill or how are you trying to empower those that are attending? Yeah. So, thanks. That's a great question. So, this year our conference is going to be in Anaheim, California in September. Um, and the conference is going to do a couple of things I think that are different and and both exciting. Um, because this is the 45th anniversary of the AIDS movement, our theme for this year's conference is United and Unbreakable. And so, you know, I it's a chance for it usually is a chance for us to bring the HIV community together. And by community, I'm I'm not only talking about people living with HIV, but people at risk for HIV, but also our community of health care providers, those that are working clinics, those are working at C in CBOS, those that are working as case managers and peer navigators. And it is an opportunity for us to come together to learn new skills to learn the latest that's going on both in terms of HIV prevention care and treatment but also sort of the policy. And this year we're also going to focus on bringing some of the implementation research to the community and we're also focusing on a clinical track as well so that we can make sure that our workforce is using some of the best practices. So, the conference itself, uh, there are usually over 2,000 participants. Um, this year with us being in Anaheim, I think it's going to have a regional Southern California flare to it. Um, so that's going to be um, an exciting aspect of it, too. And I think a lot of people also don't realize that in the state of California, they have the largest number of federally recognized tribes and Native Americans in Southern California. So, you know, Southern California, we usually hear a lot about the African-American and the Latino community, but we're also going to be showcasing and highlighting the Native American community, too, because of our location in Southern California. And they've done incredible work on working to end the HIV epidemic and addressing STI and viral hepatitis. So hopefully we'll get to lift up some of those uh examples and models for the rest of the country to think about as we all work collectively to end the HIV epidemic. >> Okay, awesome. Yeah, Anaheim is right in my backyard where I grew up. So it'll it'll be a nice treat to just uh drive our tour guide and tell us what not to miss [laughter] then other than Disney which everybody >> Disneyland's going to be across the street I'm sure. >> Right. Exactly. >> Um well, okay. Okay. And I saw that you have developed something called the HIV situation room in MAC. Can you talk a little bit about that? That sounds intriguing. >> Yeah. So, this came about as a response to a lot of the things that were happening here in in um Washington with the new administration where we did like a these short sort of newsletter policy briefs just to let everyone know sort of what the situation was here in DC because things were happening so fast. if you recall sort of after January 20th uh of 2025 and there were a lot of changes and there were a lot of things that were happening and the situation room newsletter was just a way to let people know what was happening and also ways that they could get involved and really sort of do something about it because we were getting a lot of uh emails or phone calls from members of the community going well what can I do about this and so the situation news room newsletter was our way of sort of putting making sure that was out there. >> Is that something that's ongoing? >> Yes, that and an Inmax newsletter. I would encourage uh any of your viewers and listeners to check out uh InMax website uh nmac.org and um sign up for our newsletter and and those policy briefs as well. I think they're a great way to stay in touch of what's happening here in the news and and also ways you can get involved. There's also information about how to get involved in some of our leadership and empowerment trainings as well um that we that we frequently do. >> Okay, great. Yeah, I'll have the links any links that we mentioned, including that one, down in the description box below this video when it goes live. >> Cool. And okay, so I mean we're we're trying to reconcile with potentially uh nearly 800 million in proposed cuts to nationwide prevention and surve surveillance at the CDC. How does the community continue to diagnose and respond if the data gathering infrastructure that's been there for so long is being dismantled? Yeah, I think you know like I said earlier about really informing and educating lawmakers about the impact of surve also need to do the same thing when it comes to surveillance. You know our and and we saw this a lot we saw this a lot during co like our surveillance system needs help. It needs support. It needs federal funding. um it may even need state and local funding in order for it really to get where it needs to be. Um and this is not the time to cut back on uh surveillance and in disease reporting. And so I think it's the community really needs to make sure that our voices are heard among lawmakers so that we can try to protect and defend against some of those cuts. And hopefully what we're seeing with measles might be a kick in the butt too to make sure that we're monitoring. >> AB: >> Absolutely. Absolutely. you know, we um measles, everything from flu, um you know, COVID, uh imprains of imp um making sure that folks are getting vaccinated against and that we sort of have the surveillance report so that we can know where some of our hot spots are. Um it's it's all so important. Um and it it and it is something that you know when when public health works I think many times people think you don't see it and it's not important but it is sort of working behind the scenes and it is important that we continue um continue support for it. Florida recently changed the qualifications for ADAPP or the AIDS drug assistance program in the state as well as limiting some of the benefits of the program too. Have you heard any immediate impacts of these changes? I know there was I mean there was a lot I saw read a lot of articles talking about all the things that could go wrong, but I'm just curious to know what the latest. It was a huge push between both community and the press to get the word out about the changes in eligibility in the Florida AIDS drug assistance program that we're going to to um cut off access to life-saving medications to thousands of Flidians living with HIV. And so there was a huge push between both the community, the press, and working with lawmakers to um get um funding reinstated so that those 11,000 people have access now through the end of June. Um so that is an example of where rapid advocacy and work with lawmakers really helped to make a difference there. Um but we are which is great. Um, and I think that past June on starting on July 1, we're gonna have to see what happens with the program and and funding for the program. But Florida is, I think, like many states, facing a time when we're seeing increased medication cost, increased insurance cost, the loss of the ACA premium tax credits, and they're all and flat funding of the AIDS drug assistance program. And so as more people are having to rely on that program, program is stretched. The programs are stretched and um without an increase in funding, people are going to lose access to life-saving medications. Um and we could, like we started talking about at the beginning, see a lot of our HIV gains rolled back, which is not something we want to do. Do you think that this is kind of working as a model for what people are hoping to do in other states as far as limiting ADAP um limiting the benefits of ADAP using it to to justify you know paying for other things in the state? Yeah, I think you know um there was a report that came out just recently that talked about there are 23 states where they are feeling you know for lack of a better word they're feeling squeezed either more people are coming into the program and they don't have enough money to serve them all or they're having to look at other measures to try and cut down costs so they can maintain access to medications for all the people they currently have enrolled. So there 23 states that are feeling this pressure. So you know hopefully um they don't use Florida as an example because part of the challenge in Florida was um it has local laws about a public notification process when you change eligibility and and at first that wasn't followed but then they had to take some other steps. But I think it's really important, especially any consumers that are are people living with HIV who are uh listening to your program, that they really um attend your state AIDS drug assistance program meeting to find out what's going on with your program, to find out what pressures your program might be under. Um because I we really are going to have to work in collaboration with state health departments to figure out how do we maintain coverage and access to medication for people currently in the program and then what do we do about future growth of the program and have those conversations with lawmakers. >> Is that is this something where in the past the government kind of just signed off and said okay if you need an increase in budget here it is. it kind of just happens and now it's not happening and that's why we need to have these discussions or >> for years the Ryan White program has been flatfunded. >> Okay. >> And and you know and just like and I've I've used this example with folks too. So just imagine you had $20 in your pocket 10 years ago. Imagine what you could buy with $20 10 years ago. Now think about that same 20 bucks in your pocket today. You might not even be able to fill the you can't fill the tank up with gas for sure. You can't buy the number of groceries that you put in that bag today is not the same as what that $20 would buy 10 years ago. So just think about that. So even though the Ryan White program under Ryan White part B is like a $1.2 billion program, $1.2 2 billion in what it could buy 10 years ago versus today is not the same. And at the same time, we've been doing what I would say is a good job of testing people and trying to link them to treatment. So we've had more people coming in to the program and our buying power has shrunk due to the increase of cost of medications, increasing health care costs, and then the loss of premium tax credit assistance. So the program is really strained right now. >> Yeah, that's such a good point because I've heard arguments made about how oh it's just going up and up and up every single year without restrictions. how that's fiscally irresponsible, but like inflation, hello. >> It's much higher than what CPI is saying it is. >> Um, >> and that's why I use that example of like $20 in your pocket 10 years ago versus $20 in your pocket today, right? >> Yeah. You don't have the same buying power. >> How do people figure out where they can go if they want to attend their state's ADAP meetings? So, one of the places to go, um, if you, um, I would say each state health department, um, has a Ryan White program and, and I would start by googling that and going to your website and finding that piece of it out. Um, if you're living and you're watching this from a major city like a Miami, like a San Francisco or a San Diego is an example or a New Orleans or Memphis, you can Google your Ryan White program in that city and then find out about sort of when your planning council is meeting. Those are great ways to get involved and at least um hear what's happening and going on. They also on their websites are supposed to post their meeting notes. So even if you don't want to go to a meeting, but you want to sort of find out more, you can look for the um meeting minutes on the website and and do a quick read and find out what's happening and then maybe you'll be inspired to go uh go to a actual meeting. >> Okay, cool. And I was just thinking maybe chat GPT or Gemini can help narrow down that search a little bit too. >> There you go. a a good use of AI. >> Yeah. >> Um Okay. So, all things considered, what is your outlook on the fate of ending the HIV epidemic? Maybe not just in the US, but globally in the coming 5 10 years out. I there are a number of countries many of them were pepfar funded and many of the pepfar funded countries have looked at ways to continue within their own country to continue those programs. In the next 5 to 10 years we are going to see other countries reach epidemic control or ending their HIV epidemic before the United States. And and it pains me as a proud American to be able to say or to have to say they're going to get there before us. Um um but I'm excited that they're going to get there because maybe that will show us what is actually possible with both political will, determination and funding. Um, I think for us, um, if we don't see some increased investments and and political commitment to this, we're going to we're going to fall backwards. Um, some of our progress is going to going to roll back downhill in the United States. But I think other countries are going to sort of show us the way. And I think we we're already seeing it in some European countries. Um in in England for example um they are reaching epidemic control. I think the Netherlands was another one that may be sort of reaching epidemic control in in their country as well. Um and so you know it can be done. Um but yeah it's going to take the United States a little while longer. Well, for those of us who are here in the US, uh, how do we continue to to have hope and strive for progress in light of what's happening? >> I think, you know, at the same time, I the thing that excited me uh because INMEC just had the biomedical summit in Chicago um back in [clears throat] in early April. The thing that excited me is that people are finding new and different ways to collaborate and to to meet community needs. Um, and that I [clears throat] think is exciting. I think I'm also excited about the ways that um conversations about HIV and the conversations about health are showing up on social media. Um and um the ways that folks are combating some of the stigma and the misinformation are also exciting. Um and so that those are the things that still give me hope. Um, and I think that, you know, pharma is coming out with lots of of new and exciting products for both HIV prevention, like the six-month injectable long acting. I mean, they pharma is also working on long acting treatment. Um, like imagine [clears throat] instead of having to take an HIV pill every day, once a week, that's I'm like I'm jazzed about that. I'm like this that would be great. You know, there's stuff all sorts of things that I do once a week that, you know, incorporating that into my routine rather than my daily routine because to be honest, if I change my daily routine in the slightest way, I'm sort of delayed on taking my medication or it's like, oh my god, I forgot. like my god I ran out of my bedroom and didn't or I was running late and I left it on the dresser man what you know and so being as as our farmer partners continue to make this easier on us I think it's going to be um that gives me hope as well for the future and and knowing that hey they've invested a lot in this they're not going to let the government give up on us >> yeah You're so right. There's been such a response. I mean, I think initially people were just sort of dazed by what was going on, but now you're and that was part of the argument too about social media. It's like there's all these really elevated podcasters and and pseudo intellectuals, pseudocientists who are spouting all all this misinformation. It's like, where are the people w with reason and logic and and science speaking on on social media? And you're really starting to see them rise and gain a following and have louder voices. And then like activism is really taking root again and people are becoming nimble like you with your newsletter just we kind of became maybe complacent in some ways because things were moving along and now it's like people are are charged and fired up. I I I don't remember if it it was Peter Staley or someone else at Croy at one of the plenaries saying that it's like, you know, all the act old activists were like this old rock band that had retired and now they're kind of like dusting off their instruments and like you're getting ready to do another final tour again. [laughter] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. That that is that is so true. And I was just talking to a friend of mine from Florida who had pseudo retired and then you know when the crisis happened he like put on his shoes got off the sofa you know started you know going back to Tallahassee and you know the thing for for for a lot of those activists the thing that really got them is they spent decades of their lives fighting for this movement and they had done dedicated so much time and energy and effort to this and they don't want to see it dismantled. They don't want to see us roll back to those days where, you know, people were were we're were dying in mass numbers and so they're like they're coming off the couch. >> Yeah. >> Well, as we wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to share that we haven't been able to address yet? Well, I think um the thing I would say is definitely you mentioned USCA uh and our theme of united and unbreakable 45 years of the HIV movement. Uh please definitely check out our website to um find out more about the conference and ways that you can engage in the conference. We are working on both our program, our plenary. Um, for those of you that are in the Southern California area and want to be part of the host committee, there are opportunities to get involved and engage there. Um, and I would say thank you so much for what you do. um in and like I said, normalizing our conversations about HIV and being, you know, hopefully a role model and an inspiration for other people who, you know, may feel like this de the the news of um of them learning that they're HIV positive doesn't necessarily have to be the end of of your life. It can be the beginning of your life and put you on a a path to something new and and something where your story can help influence other people. So, thank you, Ry, for doing what you do. >> Absolutely. And and a diagnosis can even lead you to a life that's even greater than you ever thought possible before. >> Exactly. I never thought I'd end up working in the White House and being a gay man living with HIV and talking to the president about life with HIV. The president of the United States is like, >> yeah, that's that's huge. Thank you for everything you've done and continue to do. Um, it's really inspiring for me. Um, and I'm looking forward to attending USCA this year and sharing uh that experience with everyone as well. >> Thank you. >> Everyone at home, please like this video, comment, give me your questions. I'm happy to follow up too. Uh, don't forget to share this with anyone who might find value in this content. Those are the best ways that you can help support me and my channel. Harold, thank you so much everyone at home. I'll see you next time. Cheers. It's a buy.