Why Don’t You Have Sex With Your Sister? - Dr Debra Lieberman

Why don't people want to have sex with their sister >> or their brother or other family members? >> Y >> it ends up that humans have a natural inbreeding avoidance system that develops pretty reliably in most folks exposed to the cues uh which I term kinship cues uh that are available during childhood. Um >> right. Well, what about animals? Because [snorts] I understand there is this label that's your brother, that's your sister. How do animals actually detect who their relatives are? We just take it for granted in humans. You can point and say, but animals don't have language. So, how do they know? >> This is a really good question. It's always fun to open up a interview with incest, incest avoidance. >> Incest of Yes. And so, so it's a really good question. How do we know who our close genetic relatives are and why is that important? Um well, first it's important to know who your close genetic relatives are, not only for the purpose of not mating with them because mating with close genetic relatives can cause a host of problems. So it leads to uh less um less healthy offspring for instance and offspring who might suffer from greater genetic mutations. Uh so evolution engineered into our psychology a very sophisticated system to allow us to detect uh detect relatives close genetic relatives and develop a sexual aversion towards them. We don't even typically think of them as possible uh mating partners. It's not foolproof uh but this is what tends to happen. And the other reason why we should have a system for naturally detecting and automatically detecting genetic relatedness is for altruism. So being nice to your close genetic relatives follows from Hamilton's theory of inclusive fitness. We're nice to other people as a function. One way altruism can evolve is by being nice to people who tend to share uh genes by common descent. But you asked the question of so how do we do this? Um and because humans aren't the only species that encountered this problem of avoiding mating with close genetic relatives for biological purposes. And so other animals without language or culture, they use cues, cues that correlated with another individual being a close genetic relative uh in that species uh you know evolutionary history. So whether it's being part of the same litter or a smell um or imprinting on a particular place or a marking, these are the kinds of things that evolution can engineer to help guide kin detection. Humans have language and so language and culture map very nicely onto these systems. Um but it they're imperfect and so even though we could join a sorority or fraternity and call people brother, sister or in certain religions father, mother, uh you know who your actual father and mother are. You know well with good certainty you know what your who your mom is, who your daddy is is always an interesting question. But certainly siblings are uh also individuals who you tend to correctly identify or would have at least in ancestral environments. Um so we don't use language likely we just use the cues that correlated. And so if you want to go around the horn of the nuclear family to figure out um how do we detect who our close genetic relatives are? Well, who how do you know who your mother is? This is the female who tended to primarily uh breastfeed you. So this type of imprinting or mapping onto the female who nursed you. How does a mom know who her child is? Well, that's kind of it. Yes, it falls out of you. Unmistakable. Um, how does a child know who uh her father is? This is uh not pinned down. I mean, it is a question. I mean, mommy's baby, daddy's maybe. So the question about [laughter] how is it that people um how does people identify their father really probably goes through understanding who is who's have I correctly identified my mother and what males are investing in her because males are going to rely on their paternity certainty in order to direct investment towards their uh offspring. So relying on what kind of who's investing in me heavily uh out there could be one cue that females use, but also the male that was around very early on in development has a better chance of being one's dad than the male that one's mom kind of uh is hanging out with uh later on in life. So but it's a really it's a really good question. So might phenotype matching uh occur? It could be. I don't I'm not a fan. So sorry that is do people use facial resemblance as a cue uh to to understand who's likely a relative that that hypothesis uh does have some interesting data backing it. I I'm not I'm not a fan of it only because I think ancestrally people looked really similar. And not only that, just by the assortment of genes, siblings can look and fathers can look a lot like their offspring or not as much like their offspring, but still be related uh you know, with good certainty. And so I'm not quite sure pinning how we determine kinship onto a few genes that happen to govern facial uh features is is the right way to do it. But maybe it contributes to be sure. Certainly when we see people who look similar similar to us that can spark a type of kinship. But I think that has more to do with a friendship and >> is it in-group outgroup tribalism >> maybe or also we're always looking for people who might value us and identifying people who share features any feature like you know if you were to say oh my gosh I have a sister her name is Deborah Lynn I'd be like oh my god I like you even more [laughter] >> oh yeah what's that the naming effect there's more people called butcher that end up being butchers and more people called Travis that live in Travis and My my my mom and dad's names both start with a K. All right. Well, whatever. Like, okay. [laughter] >> Oh, but they both start with a K. Well, that that's it's that is very interesting. I mean, the idea that we can we seek and we're always looking for people who might value us. So, o looking for overlap in any dimension is something we do naturally to form friendships. So are you saying that the same mechanism that we use to identify who our kin is in order to do reciprocal altruism, I need to look after them more than I would look after a a cousin or a third cousin or a friend or a stranger is the same one that does incess avoidance. So the system that is being used to identify kin for the purpose of being nice to them like the inclusive fitness >> is the same kin detection system that's operating for evaluating someone as a sexual partner. So one >> wow that's so cool. You think that's cool? >> I think it's super cool. I think there's I mean it's it's economical the idea that the brain computes one kinship estimate like I have an for every person I meet I have an estimate of what do I think the probability is not explicitly not consciously but by exposure to these cues my brain has kind of ratcheted up or not ratcheted up this estimate that tells me and I use to determine how related or likely that person is to be relative and that is an input into systems about how nice I should be to that person and how avoidant I should be of them sexually. >> Yeah. How close my heart should be and how far my genitals should be from from this person. [laughter] >> Okay. So, has this been this has to have been tested in adopted siblings. So, if you see pregnancy or breastfeeding uh but you don't share the like early co-resident window, like does that still trigger incest avoidance? like you know h how can you play around with some of the triggers here to see to to see what really works. >> So my research focused on siblings. I did a little bit of the the uh parent offspring as well but the bulk of my research was on how do siblings figure out who they are you know who's related to them. And it looks as if there's two separate cues. So one unmistakable cue that someone is a close genetic is a sibling is you see your mom and to the extent you've met the right woman as mom uh your mom you know pregnant give birth to caring for breastfeeding a newborn that is an unmistakable cue that that their kid you know breastfeeding from my mom being cared for you know by my mom is my sibling and that actually operates regardless of actual genetic relatedness. Um, >> so you can fake you can fake it kind of. You wouldn't need to give birth to it. You would just have to breastfeed it, >> right? And there's actually natural experiments that have shown this to be true. So in uh Taiwan, there was uh that's no longer um being practiced, but a form of marriage called minor marriage where parents would adopt in a newborn girl uh into their family either because they had a son or they were hoping to have a son in the next year or so. And they brought up this adopted girl alongside their son until teenage years when someone said, "And now you will marry." >> Oh god. But they didn't realize that they'd triggered this incest avoidance mechanism. >> Correct. And so but one of the interesting findings is that the uh mom, the adopted mom would often times breastfeed the newborn. And so what what happened is is that the son would have observed his mother breastfeeding a child that is in fact not an actual genetic sibling. >> I imagine that doesn't lay a particularly good foundation for a future successful marriage. >> No, but here's so we're going we're going to go a bit far field here, but the idea is here's one of the striking things about that particular um natural experiment that occurred. This was documented by anthropologist Arthur Wolf. He found and reported that even among um children who were raised together from very early age, many of them did marry and did produce offspring. So when cultural norms are that strong, it can actually cause you to you know do things that you otherwise might not choose to do. Now in those marriages, those unions tended to end more often in divorce and there were more extrammarital affairs. So the recordkeeping was incredible um by the colonial government but it was uh so those marriages when they were raised together from birth they tended to have fewer kids but they did produce kids greater more marriage uh more divorce and more extrammarital affairs compared to marriages where it was the traditional arranged marriage where kids were just raised in their natal household and then met as adults. >> Okay. So the first one was breastfeeding. >> So yeah so sorry. So back back. So the first really potent cue to who is a sibling is who did I see my mom caring for? Kind of this maternal uh investment. The second cue. So this is a great cue, but what happens if you're the younger sibling in a pair? You weren't around to see your mom care for your older sibling as a newborn. Uh what are you to do? And so this starts to get into the Westermark effect. So Edward Westermark was a Finnish social scientist and he you know recognized that children who were raised together throughout childhood tend to develop a sexual aversion toward one another later in adulthood this has been termed the western effect and what he was identifying is this second cue of co-residentidence duration. So I I like So it's been operationalized as co-residents, meaning that if you're the younger sibling in a pair, you've got an older sibling. How do you know that you're they're actually a genetic relative? How does your brain figure that out? You track how long that they lived with you under the same roof receiving care from the same two individuals. So it's really still about parental investment, shared parental investment, the amount of time that you see them being cared for by the same two individuals predominantly probably mother um over the course of dependency. And so this is why the longer the duration of co-residents during early childhood, the more certain you are that an individual again implicitly is a genetic relative. And this leads to not only greater altruism towards that person, but also greater disgust about the thought of sex with that person. We'll get back to talking in just one second, but first, if you have been feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the problem. They play a huge role in your energy, focus, and performance. But most people have no idea what theirs are or what to do if something's off. Which is why I partnered with Function because I wanted a smarter and more comprehensive way to actually understand what's happening inside of my body. Twice a year they run lab tests that monitor over a hundred biomarkers. They've got a team of expert physicians that analyze the data and give you actionable advice to improve your health and lifespan. Seeing your testosterone levels and dozens of other biomarkers charted across the course of a year with actionable insights to genuinely improve them gives you a clear path to making your life better. Getting your blood work drawn and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands and be a nightmare. But with function, it's just $499 bucks. And now you can get an additional $100 off, bringing it down to $399. Get the exact same blood panels that I get and save a h 100red bucks by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modern wisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modern wisdom. When does the Westmark window start and stop? Is there actually a clear cut off? >> So it was thought that perhaps there was a clear kind of imprinting period. My research shows that it basically it it just each year of co-resident seems to add a little bit of certainty um or I should say reduces the uncertainty that someone is a genetic relative. So it looks like throughout the period of dependency starting from birth starting from birth is key. And so individuals who kind of meet later on, the effect still holds, but it's not as strong as people who are exposed to a sibling right from the get- go. I imagine the potential for an absentee father to come back into a daughter's life later in her life. This is one of the leapfrog avoided the Westermark window challenges that can cause some uh pretty uncomfortable outcomes. Well, it's so I would say that fathers don't recognize their daughters by the western mark effect. So westernark effect is going to be all about yes, it's co-resident duration and that might make it seem like it operates for all family members, but it's really about observing who is investing in whom, right? So the idea of I'm if I have an older sibling, I see that the same female who's feeding me, yelling at me, you know, caring for me when I'm sick and so forth is also doing the same thing to another older child, I have a good idea that that's my that's my sibling. So that's and the longer they require that type of um investment, that's the kind of period of co-resident that we're talking about for F. But you raise really important things. So people who are not exposed to these cues. So what does this mean? And so this gets us into fun territory. So people who are not exposed to these cues, they really don't map other people on as siblings. And so fast forward to modern environments where you now have these sperm bags, right? So you can have guys who are depositing their sperm and women are collecting it and they're having all these kids and now there's all these half siblings running around and now you can meet them. Um, in fact, there I remember I don't know 10 10 years ago, but it was probably more like 20 at this point, that there was a show like that kind of brought together all of these um paternal half siblings and they all they were really enjoying each other's company. And I think there was one remark about even being attracted to one another. And so you wonder how does this happen? Well, a couple things. There's couple things going on. First, there's no natural sexual aversion that's developed. There's no there's no system that's activated to say this is my sibling. You telling me that you're my sibling, that that a person is my sibling, you know, that's not really going to do very much to me, you know, that explicit information. It's like someone imagine someone knocking on your door and saying, you know, your mate that you've been living with for 15 years, that's really your genetic relative. And so it really wouldn't really change the way you feel. You might say, "Well, maybe we shouldn't have more kids." But in general, it's not going to kind of cause a disgust. I I I would guess. But here's the other thing that's interesting. By virtue of sharing, why is it you find like what's called genetic sexual attraction? So, it's been thought to be a thing. Have you heard of this genetic sexual attraction? >> That's good. Maybe it's not out there. Maybe I shouldn't talk about it. [laughter] >> Get it out there. Information has it. put it out there and I'll just kind of wipe it away. So, >> genetic sexual attraction, it's been thought that, oh, we actually really are attracted to our family members. Um, so Freud was right and we kind of harbor these sexual desires. Um, no. Uh, not so much. And so I would say probably what happens is that by virtue of the fact that we share genes in common with our close genetic relatives, we develop very similar preferences, right? So imagine designing your perfect mate, right? So what is what does your mate look like? What do they like to do? What do they like to eat? When do they like to get up? When they like to exercise, what kind of you know, all these kinds of things, you know? It's like you and then you finally meet someone. It's like you like kung fu movies. I like kung fu movies. You like spicy foods. I like spicy foods. You like getting up really early in the morning. Yeah. You like reading and you like evolutionary psych. Like I mean literally it is you imagine all these different traits that line up in your really good friends and the mate that you would design if you could. Suddenly you meet a sibling who actually shares a lot of these preferences and these dispositions and it's like well this kind of hits a bullseye. Um, and so the fact that, you know, people might find uh genetic relatives without a sexual aversion present, people that they enjoy spending time with, doesn't uh surprise me. >> Well, I mean, I guess it depends how annoying your brother or sister is, but a lot of people a lot of people like to spend time with their brothers and sisters. Uh, not just because of the history that they've got together. And if you remove the incest aversion, if you remove the disgust response and you're of the sex that that person is attracted to, it's like, well, why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you do this? And uh yeah, what you're saying is basically if you if you weren't brother and sister, but you are, but if you weren't, what would that be like? That'd be pretty it'd be pretty sweet because, you know, 50% of everything we are psychologically is at least in some part shaped by our uh behavioral genetics. Okay. Well, I mean, 50% is a lot more than a lot of relationships that have lasted for quite a while. >> I I'm not quite sure what to say [laughter] in response to that, but what you did So, I'll just say Okay. And that's the other thing is that what you bring up though is um Jonathan Height's great experiment. Are you familiar with the Mark and Julie experiment? >> Maybe >> and moral dumbfounding. Okay. So Jonathan Height did a really great study on moral dumbfounding that had to do with inbreeding avoidance. And he brought students into the lab and or participants into the lab and he gave them the following scenario. Imagine there's Julie and Mark and they're brothers and sisters, their brother and sister, and they decide they want to have sex. And they decide, you know, they really want to. They're adults. They're consenting. They're going to use like five condoms. They can't get pregnant. No one's going to know. They're never going to do it again. You wipe their memory and they'll never even remember it. And no one's going to experience any emotional or physical harm. It's something you really want. So, it's all positive. All, you know, win-win. And so, uh, you know, and so, um, Jonathan Height would pose these questions to participants and say, "Is it wrong for them to have sex?" And, you know, all the participants are like, "Yes." And then he's like, "Well, why?" Well, the condom could break. No, no, no. Condom doesn't break. They're wearing five of them and she's on birth control. Like, everything's fine. Uh, someone could find out. No, no, no. And so, you know, they try to kind of find a way and a a rationalization as to why it's wrong. and finally they just give up. I don't know. It's just wrong. And so he called this moral dumbfounding. And it's really a good question as to what's going on. And are people saying that it's wrong because they're concerned about the harm that could befall Julian Mark? >> Uh and most people are saying yes because most people still think that there could be a harm. I actually think that the reason why people say that it's wrong is not because of Julian Mark. I don't think people care about Julian Mark. [laughter] I think that people care about being in that room with Jonathan Height and the other experimenters to be like, I think incest is okay. I [laughter] think it's okay. >> Oh, so you think it's all just like observer effect stuff. >> I think it's the idea that I could be going against a societal norm that the majority is on the other side and I could be seen as a minority. I think we're very I think we are very sensitive to sticking our necks out on issues where a majority holds one and we are going to oppose it publicly. >> Well, I mean surely you could authority you could just control this by changing the way that people submit their answers, right? You could submit them in complete anonymity. You could do it through a form. You could do it anonymously on the internet. Has this been this has to if this is such a an obvious potential explanation, this has to have been tested. I don't think it's obvious because I think people have been so focused as morality is cooperation. Um and I think that morality I mean you wanted to talk about this getting back into the disgust and morality stuff but um it's very possible that people um are very sensitive about moral condemnation and uh anyway if you I think you only get to this hypothesis if you think that people don't care about harm [laughter] to them but harm to themselves. Okay. What what was that study where you asked men to imagine tongue kissing their sister? >> Um that was uh well there's been a few. [laughter] I've done other stuff like on positive things like gratitude. [laughter] >> No no no sorry I'm I'm keeping my foot on the neck of incest at the moment. >> Incest avoidance please. Um okay so yes there I've done a few studies. So, one of the ways that we have to collect data on what people find objectionable and disgusting is to ask them to imagine um is to a ask them to imagine engaging in a variety of sexual behaviors. Uh and so how do you do this and ethic ethically, right? So asking subjects to imagine tongue kissing their sibling or having sex or you know taking a shower with them. Um, what's interesting about that is at least a while back when I collected those data, females were all at ceiling. You couldn't like one to seven, they'd be like 10. Like you wouldn't they wouldn't be happy. The amount of variation that I found in female responses, seriously, the the bars on my graph were like, oh, basically touching. There were very very little variation. All very squeezed right up at ceiling. Um males on the other hand uh the varian structure was uh quite wide which I found um humorous but it all gets back to I mean it's not humorous this is a very serious subject and actually it is um and so it gets back to some of the cost of reproduction females when selecting a mate have to consider all of I mean they are on the hook for you know nine months of 10 months of gestation 3 years of lactation Um and so getting a baby up and running is easily 3 four years ancestrally. So any bad decision in terms of investing uh uh time and energy into an offspring with a reduced chance of survival uh would have been uh heavily selected against. males their the opportunity costs are are far less. Um and so males while they should not be um pro- sibling incest would find it slightly less horrifically objectionable as compared to females. >> Women also usually have a lower disgust threshold than men, right? >> For most things. Yes, for most things. You know, I tested this. I asked women a whole bunch of different things about how disgusting you find a variety of things. And you're absolutely right that women are far more disgusted by a great many things. It ends up there are a couple things that uh flipped which were um you know changing diapers. Females are like that's yeah and and then having sex during your period. So that also um that sorry it's gross. It's all gross. But so there you go. >> Um >> yeah. So women are disgusting just specifically in specific situations. I think I think just the word period or tampon grosses guys out a little bit more than women. I think that's probably >> correct. We're less we're way less familiar with it. A quick aside, if your sleep's been off, you're taking ages to fall asleep. Waking up at random times feeling groggy in the morning. Momentous's sleep packs are here to help. They are not your typical knock you out supplement just overloaded with melatonin. It only has the most evidence-based ingredients. perfect doses to help you fall asleep more quickly, stay asleep throughout the night, and wake up feeling more rested and revitalized in the morning. These things are an absolute game changer. I take them every single night and when I'm on the road, uh they're unbelievable cuz they're predosed. You just take this and your sleep will improve. What you read on the label is what's in the product and absolutely nothing else. And if you're still insured, they've got a 30-day money back guarantee. So, you can just buy it completely risk- free. Use it. If you don't like it, if your sleep doesn't improve, they'll just give you your money back. That's how confident they are that you'll love it. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now, you can get a 35% discount on your first subscription and that 30-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemus.com/modernwisdom using modern wisdom at checkout. That's lie mus.com/modern wisdom. Modern wisdom at checkout. So, look, I'm an only child and I've realized that I don't have the same visceral disgust response that others have about sibling incest. Like, I understand logically why it's a terrible idea, but I don't get the same gut level recoil. It's do you know what it's like? It's like hearing smokers say, "I need a cigarette." Like, I get the concept, but I don't have the the the craving or whatever or the opposite of the craving. Like, I don't have that that aversion. Um, why? Well, I mean, is that normal? Have you looked at at people who it is literally like I don't have a language? I guess someone could say, "Well, imagine having sex with your mom." And I'm like, "Yeah, but like that you've got the age thing that's already in there on top of like the fact that she's my mom." So, I think for most people that have siblings, it's almost like they have a language of disgust that I don't have the the the understanding of. Does that make sense? >> Oh, 100%. So, um, I'll tell you about another study that I did that didn't get published, but I it's enjoyable nonetheless. Um, and so I, so I don't have a brother and my co-authors don't have opposite sex siblings. So, Lita Cosmet is an only child and John John Tubi only had brothers. And so, the three of us >> sitting around talking about how to gross each other out with these acts, it was actually, it was very disturbing talking about these things with your adviserss. I I have a I remember uh that conversation and being like I'm I'm done. I'm out. [laughter] So, um but it was we did another study which was videotaping facial expressions. At the time I started uh kin detection. No one had really started to look into the psychological aspects of it. But one of the things that we had to do was validate disgust as a possible measure. And in science, even though it's obvious, if you just ask what emotion comes to mind, if you think about tongue kissing a sibling, most people it's really gross. And there you have your dependent measure, you have to establish that. So I set up um I set up a lab where I recorded people's facial expressions and and did a variety of things to understand what facial what muscles were actually activated in response to a variety of different act things that we know elicited disgust. But then also the the sibling incest stuff and um so there people are looking at the screen seeing acts come up on the screen and and just responding to them or just reacting to them. And most of them would have these you know so in addition to like eating your favorite dessert it would be like you know putting your hand in a toilet and all these other things that you would see the the muscles the nose scruncher muscle for disgust activate. When I was matching what was on the screen to participants because those are two different video feeds, I remember seeing one of the matching up the seeing a guy kind of smile like h uh and I was like wait a minute, do I have the time simp? Like am I matching it right? Because it says like tongue kiss a sibling like like what's going on here? I was like oh no. Uh and so I was like and I remember furiously going through all the survey pages to be like please don't have a sibling. please don't have a sibling. And it ends up the guy didn't have any sisters at all. And so I found that really interesting. It kind of gets to what you're talking about, the idea that it doesn't map onto anything. And so it was like imagine it was basically like imagine having sex with a girl. And he's like, [laughter] and so without that natural aversion, um it's you don't have such a strong a strong reaction, >> right? Okay, >> next topic. [laughter] >> Uh, yeah. If incest disgust is so strong, why is incest porn such a huge category online? You'd expect it to barely exist, and yet it's massive. >> Well, I mean, are they really siblings? I mean, people do anything for money. Well, I mean, first off, it's money. And so the idea is if people are going to pay and you need money, I mean that's sure people do stuff for money and people do gross stuff all the time. >> No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Why is there Why is there an audience for it? >> Oh, why is there an audience for it? Because >> No, why are people doing it? I don't think that that many brothers and sisters are being employed. That would be that would be a very special kind of >> relationship. >> It would be a really special kind of business. Yeah, >> I imagine that the margins would be really bad. The amount of money you'd need to pay most people to have sex with their sibling would probably be pretty high. >> Yes. >> Why is there a big audience for it? Well, I watched Game of Thrones and the idea that, you know, these two people, what is it? Um, Jon Snow and, you know, Daenerys, they were ended up being related. I don't think that prevented people from watching that. I think people aren't there. It's just two people who are naked having sex [laughter] like and not only that. So there's that. There's that. And then the idea of kin detection is imperfect, right? So if you don't have a sibling and you're like, "Oh, well this sounds kind of neat and risque like >> Oh, right. You're saying Are you saying that incest porn is exclusively watched by only children?" I don't I don't I don't My hypothesis would be that a guy with six sisters is not the person who's watching this. Unless >> that would be so That would be such a [ __ ] good study. You should do this. This is your next study. Your next study is to work out is to work out um whether the likelihood of watching incest porn goes down based on the number of opposite sex siblings that you've got. Yes. >> The world needs to know. >> Okay. [clears throat] Well, I'm I'm really hoping someone in your audience will now undertake that. >> This is you. You are. This is you. You're in my audience. You're What else are you doing? You've got I mean, >> I'm writing a textbook. I'm starting a business. Come on, man. I'm busy. >> Well, this can be, you know, they there's more stuff to do. Anyway, I I think I think you're right. I think um people don't it's not like um in order to watch this incest porn you need to observe the these two people grow up in the same household as you for the first 10 years of your life and then watch it and then see it because the fantasy I guess is uh I wonder whether it's a little bit of like contravening you know in the kind of the same way that dominatrix stuff or or um uh being insulted or whatever. It's like, ooh, this is a social norm and by breaking it, this is cheeky, but it's done in a safe way because you don't actually have the discussed response. >> I mean, they're not your siblings. >> That's true. Yeah, this is whatever the thingy and Julie uh uh >> the Mark and Julie. Yeah, >> Mark and Julie. It's Mark and Julie all being watched. All right. Um Ayla, who I think you'll probably be aware of, she ran a poll and said, "If your very attractive cousin wanted to sleep with you, would you?" And there was 12,000 votes and it was almost exactly 50/50. Uh now [laughter] I will say her audience is perhaps non-typical like rationalist sex positive slightly autistic coded but >> uh >> that number still surprises me a little. >> It doesn't surprise me. Well, first off, cousins >> hot cousin 50/50. >> Cousins are it's cousin marriage is still I think one of the mo more prevalent forms of marriage worldwide. And so >> um you as soon as you start to drop off of nuclear family members, the biological delletterious and harmful effects of mating with close relatives drops off pretty fast. >> What's the comparison to parent to sibling to cousin? >> I mean it really it drops off really fast. So within the nuclear family are the the greatest risks, right? So you have uh parent offspring certainly mother child there's greater certainty but you know degree of relatedness is you know.5 um siblings tend to be on average.5 but as soon as you go to cousins you get to an eighth you go from a you know a half to an eighth and so that's on average so I would say especially when they're in norms kind of pushing all of that and uh you didn't live with them and so your struct your kinship structure is more it's it your aversions aren't aren't as strong as they would be to nuclear family members and for good reason. >> Would you have is there such a thing as you observing the baby of your mother's sister growing up in the same household as you, being close to them, knowing that it's not being raised by your mother, but knowing that your mother and that woman are close and that woman raised that. Is there such a thing as being able to tune up the cousin aversion? Yeah, I I bet you there is. I mean, just like there's an ability to tune up the sibling aversion by having someone come into the house and be raised by um you know, an adopted child and so forth. And so, it's um I suspect that there's there's a lot more research that needs to be done uh on this. And now that we have these amazing ways to collect massive amounts of data, it' be very interesting. you asked about a kind of imprinting period or developmental period, a sensitive period and the qu the answer is you know we don't we don't exactly know I mean there could be my data I collected data from like a couple hundred people and so the bins that I have like I have most people 3 to 18 they lived with their siblings some 4 to 18 5 to 18 but imagine having the ability for every bin between 0 and 18 filling that with 10,000 people to kind of understand patterns and so that would be a really great study to answer the question uh definitively. >> I agree. Okay. Uh you had this fantastic article on crying which I read >> few months ago. It's it is one of the best things that I've read in a long time. I think it's really really great. So I want to we've talked about incest now we're going to talk about crying. Um, before we continue, I've been drinking AG1 every day for years now because it's the simplest way that I found to cover my bases and not overthink nutrition. And that is why I've partnered with them. One scoop gives you 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food ingredients in a single drink. And now they've taken it even further with AG1 NextGen. The same one scoop once a day ritual, but this time backed by four clinical trials. In those trials, it was shown to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels in just three months, and increase healthy gut bacteria by 10 times, even in people who already eat well. They've upgraded the formula with better probiotics, more bioavailable nutrients, and clinical validation. And it's still NSF certified for sport, meaning that even Olympic athletes can use it. Plus, if I ever actually found something better, I would switch. But I haven't, which is why I still use it every day. And if you're on the fence, they've got a 90-day money back guarantee. Buy it and try it. And if you don't love it, they will give you your money back. Right now, you can get a free bottle of vitamin D3 K2 free AG1 travel packs, a welcome kit, and that 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkaga.com/modernwisdom. That's drinkagg.com/modernwisdom. What's the evolutionary story behind crying? Why why would leaking water from your face ever be adaptive? Um it is well okay so before we get into this I just have to say for the record because it's an important record we've talked about disgust but I've also done a lot of work on gratitude and other emotions and so but it's my work on gratitude that got me into tears because gratitude um and so see how I'm I'm kind of drinking but gratitude it's an important emotion that's responsible for jumpstarting friendships. uh it is an emotion that identifies when other people value you. Right? So someone does something uh that you perceive to be a benefit. You say thank you. You are basically saying you know I I I value you for having done that act and um it would be great if you continue to do that act uh with the promise that potentially we can form a cooperative relationship downstream. >> But it all hinges on what we call kind of social value. In the in the article, it's called welfare trade-off ratio, but let's not talk about that. It's really just about how I value you, how I perceive you to value me. And so, uh, because when we're strangers, I don't think you will value me or I don't value you, and then use something nice, it's like, oh, I how do I recognize how do I positively reinforce that bene uh beneficial behavior, that positive behavior? And gratitude seems to be the way that I say, hey, that was really great. Keep doing that. Um, like, thanks so much. Uh and so but it all hinges on these internal assessments of value. So how do we get people to value us? If you are I promise this is going right straight to tears. And so if I am big and strong and formidable um I can just get you to be nice to me right under threat of penalty. Like I can impose costs. I can beat you up. I can have other people beat you up. I have money. I can pay I can do all sorts of things. Um, and so if I I can use anger as one device and strategy in order to get you to to value me. I can also use gratitude. We've talked about this in the literature as prestige and dominance, but I think it tracks uh a little deeper than that in terms of the strategies of how to get other people to value you. But here's the thing. If I'm on the other side, if I am lowle leveraged, if I if I'm in a situation in a relationship where someone's imposing costs on me or threatening me, right, how do I what do I bring to the table? How do I negotiate? You know, what are what what what in my arsenal? Um, and so I could either just kind of give in and be exploited and manipulated um all the way to the end. [gasps] Or I can try and kind of express that you are imposing too much of a cost. you are asking me to deliver too high a benefit to you that's going to start digging into my own interests and tears is one way that we use to communicate costs or better yet the intensity of a particular state so um so tears I'm mapping it more onto sadness it's not necessarily just associated with sadness but uh using sadness as an example the idea that my tears communicate to you you are starting to impose a cost on me that is threatening your value in this relationship as well. Uh it might be worth your your while to to stop. [laughter] And so uh it's a way it's the it's a tool used by the lower leveraged to get other people to stop imposing costs or to start restart the delivery of benefits. So kids cry, throw tantrums saying, you know, you're not feeding me enough or you're not feeding me the right things, you know, cuz they're not big and burly and they can't be like, you're going to make me that hot dog, [laughter] right? They're just going to cry, I don't want mac and cheese. So, um, but they're so tears can communicate quite a bit. More generally, they communicate value. And so we associate them a lot with the negative value, things that cost us, but they can very much be associated with the positive side too. It's indicating the kinds of things that I benefit, you know, that I find quite beneficial. So you know, someone delivers an a hugely unexpected gift to you. It's, you know, you could be moved to tears, right? Someone does something and and and donates a kidney or does something, you know, life-saving. the idea that you can be moved to tears by such um by such behaviors, it's showing and illustrating um it's illustrating a high value. So, it's very much like the scream, but it's used by the lower leveraged in a an interaction. >> What does lower leveraged mean? >> Means the person who is less likely to get their way in an interaction. So the could be the less physically formidable, the lower socioeconomic status, the less attractive, the you know smaller. >> Oh, okay. Okay, I get it. And >> so women cry more than men, kids cry more than adults. >> Have you looked at trying to control this stuff? So for instance, let's say that you had a woman in a relationship, but she was socioeconomically more successful than her partner. She was the primary bread winner. or you had a mate value discrepancy where the woman was uh higher mate value uh more famous more statusful uh you know trying to rebalance these scales do we tend to see that change >> I would I would say you probably absolutely do um >> wow >> and then and but there's always the fun crocodile tears right so those are the fun ones where it is people who use tears because they know what they do Um, and uh, so you know, psychopaths, dark triad people will pull out crocodile tears in order to get you to think that they care. Um, and so that's always an interesting um, feature. But there's a you can tell I I came up with one way to tell. This has not been studied or at least I don't think that this has been studied and I'd love to study this. So, if you've ever cried, like if you're like me, even in a movie, a dark movie theater, if I like start crying, I like I like start to stare. So, it's like dry up, dry up. Don't [laughter] let anyone see you crying, you know? It's like you you kind of like you you hide and you don't want anyone to see you. You don't want anyone to see you. Um it's kind of like I I don't want to be perceived as weak or lowleveraged or someone who you can now take advantage of and exploit or anything like that, right? So I I don't I don't want to have lost any ground in any type of um in leverage, you know, in any relationship. Again, it's not explicit, but it's just like we tend to hide these things. But people who are trying to use their tears for more manipulative purposes will cry and be like, "Don't you you see my tears? These are tears because I care." And so I think people who uh use crocodile tears need them to be on display. >> Oh, that's so great. Yeah. allow me to put a billboard up so that my tears can run down the front of it. But isn't it isn't it strange the people who are crying and that they've got, you know, if this theory holds true and at least a good bit of the time I think it does. >> People are I'm trying to tell you I value you or the thing that you just did or you were imposing costs on me and I would really like you to stop. >> Yeah. Um, I need you to see this, but also I'm ashamed of the fact that my body and my face and my eyes and the water has betrayed me. So, I'm going to hide, but I'm going to show but I'm going to hide, but I'm going to show you, but I'm going to hide. Like, is there's a tension going on here? >> There is. It's a I don't want you to I'm not giving up too much ground in this relationship, but just for this one instance, you should know that you've gone too far. And so an interesting thing is that in what has been studied are tears and anger at the same time because women tend to when they get angry um also tend to tear up. So if you are in a if you're in a situation where you are you're out leveraged. So you're in a group situation and you're not being valued and people are pissing you off, right? And so, and you say something, right, you're angry. You're you like if if you had, you know, if you had muscle behind you, you'd be in good shape. But if you find that you're the only one making a case for something, what? So, women in these situations, they tend to get angry, but also tear up. It's like, but again, it's that tension. It's like, if I could, I would, but I can't, so I won't. But if I could. [laughter] >> Yeah. That's so great. And I don't think I haven't seen guys get do the angry cry thing in quite the same way. Their rage is able to sort of burst through it a little bit more. >> I think in most situ Yeah. No, I don't think that's a tactic for males who don't. So listen, I mean there is a big difference in there are huge sex differences when it comes to formidability walking around the world where you know around in modern times. I mean, I love modern times. Like, I can walk around without really under threat of being like, you know, hurt. And so, but that's relatively recent in human evolutionary history. Like there were, you know, you go somewhere foreign and suddenly you realize like maybe I shouldn't be walking around alone. Like [laughter] this is this is I'm going to hire someone, you know, tomorrow. And so the idea that females are less formidable and they are at risk of being, you know, I mean, you walk around and it's here's what I was told. I don't know if this is true. Tell me if this is true. That when guys go into a room, a new room, new people at a party, wherever it is, a bar, the the first thing they do or one of the things they do naturally is they kind of sweep the room like who who else is there? What other guys are there? and kind of take a take a kind of back of the nap make a back of the napkin calculation about who's bigger, who's more formidable, like who can I take, who's dangerous, who should I be wary of, and who do I have to worry about [laughter] kind of thing. Is that is that something men do when they walk in a room? >> Uh I I don't know whether it's that conscious, but >> I don't think it's conscious. >> Uh there's certainly stuff that happens that's kind of interesting. Like um if you're in a room, this is a cool way to look at it. If it's a mostly guys room, ideally an all guys room, cuz as soon as you throw women in the mix, it becomes messy. Um, but if you've got a table, um, you'll see what is the angle of the chair, what are the angles of the chairs mostly pointed toward and you will see that there is a head of the table, even if there isn't a head of the table. Um, >> another way that this happens is >> when somebody starts speaking, when a guy starts speaking in a room, >> what is the likelihood that some or all people shut up? But I've been in rooms I've been in rooms with some guys like real real statusful guys that if they fart everyone will [laughter] everyone will decide to be quiet. Um and you can really tell an awful lot about um where the hierarchy falls by who's nearby proximity to that person um whether they will keep talking uh whether they're happy whether they look regulated or whether they sort of seem a bit more sickopantic appeasing. Um, so it's all that I mean that's me getting that's actually me getting a little bit feminine I suppose with it as opposed to the more like brisk shoulders back type way. That's more like status game playing like relational stuff. But there's still even the formidability I think will play a big part of that too. I think if you've got some big [ __ ] dude in the room and he starts speaking I I think your let's say formidability status >> status and resource cues something like that like how big are you who are you and what do you have something like that if you had these buckets and there is this invisible score that is above everybody's head which is some sort of aggregate of all of those things put together. So like the really formidable guy who nobody really knows that much and the really statusful guy who might not be quite so formidable that that would be an interesting like who do we oh well actually I'm physically a little bit weaker so maybe I'll be more scared of the formidable guy but statusfully I'm a little bit stronger so I don't mind the the you know what I mean like how where am I in the pecking order all of that uh is done in a not very long when you sit down in a room I imagine at the back of my mind. >> Yeah. No, I think I think that stuff I think the non-verbal um non-verbal behavior is is really interesting. Um someone that I I've I've read and listened to in terms of the podcast is Joe Navaro who's done a lot of this work on um on non-verbals and so that's that's it's fascinating stuff if you haven't had him on. >> Yeah, he's great. In other news, you've probably heard me talk about element before and that's because I am frankly [laughter] dependent on it. Uh, and it's how I've started my day every single morning. This is the best tasting hydration drink on the market. You might think, why do I need to be more hydrated? Because proper hydration is not just about drinking enough water. It's having sufficient electrolytes to allow your body to use those fluids. Each grab-and-go stick pack is a sciencebacked electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium. It's got no sugar, coloring, artificial ingredients, or any other junk. This plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue while optimizing brain health, regulating your appetite, and curbing cravings. This orange flavor in a cold glass of water is a sweet, salty, orangey nectar, and you will genuinely feel a difference when you take it versus when you don't, which is why I keep going on about it. Best of all, there's a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration. Buy it, use it all, and if you don't like it for any reason, they give you your money back, and you don't even have to return the box. That's how confident they are that you'll love it. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below, heading to drinklnt.com/modernwisdom, that's drinklnt.com/modern wisdom. So, if if tears are um telling another person, I value this thing or you're imposing costs on me and I would like it to stop. >> Uh why do we cry when we're on our own? Oh, because I think that we have dramas played out in our head all the time, you know, like we very easy to imagine a whole bunch of stuff. Typically, it's not just, you know, nothing sparks us. Usually, there's a thought or some type of sequence, >> but who we crying to? >> Oh, I think it's simulating. I I think there's simulations all the time. It's just like, you know, haven't you ever, you know, you know, laughed? [laughter] Like I I work uh you know in my place on my own and if anyone were ever to watch like they'd be like she's crazy cuz she's laughing [laughter] all the time just by thinking about some of these things you know it's hard not to chuckle and so but what's that all about? It's like me thinking about stuff you know and so I think that when we think about things we can absolutely simulate what would be my what would be my reaction in this particular situation. So that kind of playing with uh possible events that could play out to be prepared for them and so forth. Okay. I I think most people and me too, I think that sounds a bit surprising because not that it's not true, but I'm like I'm not gaming this out. I don't want to be [ __ ] in a ball of tears on the floor at the moment having just watched this dog come home to or this this soldier come home to his dog after, you know, 3 years away and now the dog faints and now the daughter's there and, you know, um but I'm not I'm I is it am I confusing the fact that I've seen that those people are here with me? Is it the fact that my whatever system crying system is unable to detect the fact that that's virtual or not? Is it the fact that it's unable to detect the um mental imaging that we've given versus a real situation? Is it the fact that our mental situations are just so powerful that it doesn't matter if there's other people around that we experience them as if it was happening in front of us? >> I think I I think you have empathy with score one for not being a psychopath. [laughter] >> Okay. Well, good. >> So, they go >> I wish I cried less. I wish I I wish I wish I was less of a [ __ ] I My crying threshold is, you know, the discuss threshold thing we said before. My crying threshold is embarrassingly low. It [ __ ] blows. >> That's our Listen, empathy is not overrated. And so I would say, you know, I think that first off, TV and story, we evolved with storytelling. We evolved with people in front of us telling stories about people and about, you know, um, you know, our ancestors and so forth. But I think that when we see them on TV, it's a little confusing to our our ancestral brains. That's for sure. And so, but hearing about these things and putting yourself in a situation and simulating, I think, is or being, you know, showing empathy and putting yourself in the shoes of other people and what what you would experience. Um, because there are people who don't have that ability, right? So you have people who uh you know people who psychopaths for instance who do not have a capacity for empathy and would not cry. >> What about when grief? Because some let's say somebody's passed away. >> Who you crying to? >> They're gone. What are the tears for? >> Well, I think you're showing other people your need state. Um, that's one one thing, but I I think a lot of things are going on at that point in time. So, being upset and depressed and grieving, the idea that it's it's a that it's a loss. Um, and typically we would have been around I mean there's no such thing as privacy to uh, you know, a hunter gatherer. So you know something happens and you would have been around other people and kind of this automatic response of I am in a need state would have potentially been uh quite beneficial. I you know I haven't done so I I I a lot of this is speculation. Uh so the the the so just to stay on you know terrairma here I the paper really was about I was very curious researchers who had been studying tears showing that you you show subjects emotion faces displaying various emotions and if you add tears to some of those emotions they're easier to recognize and when I was so I'm the editor of uh the field's journal evolution and human behavior and so I had one of these papers in front of me and it struck me like there's a lot of research on tears and it hasn't been hooked up with the cognitive side of thing. What's going on internally and what this uh signal value is? And it had struck me that no one really thought about is is tearing an adaptation like what's going on here? Um and so thinking about when we tar and what might be going on, it seemed to be very much tied to social value, right? So being around people who value us and we are going to try to get them to stop imposing costs or try to elicit more benefits from them. Um obviously in not that I I talk science speak but you know we we don't talk that's not consciously available to us. We just we just cry and it has the effects that it does on the people around us. >> Okay. So positive events, the reason that we create positive events is like this is good, do more of it, like an encouraging thing. This is a value to me and and uh I wouldn't do this ridiculous thing if it wasn't. >> Yeah. >> Reliable signal of receptiveness. >> Yeah. You're marking this is of high value to me. I I perceive the events and what's going on now to reg be registering in my brain as high value. >> Okay. Why not why not make our whole body shake? Why not raise our hand in the air and wave it? Why? Because crying presumably wasn't crying is here to lubricate our eyes. That's why crying that's why the tear duct exists primarily. Mhm. >> Why has our emotional system repurposed that? Why don't we [ __ ] ourselves? Like, why don't we why don't we just yell? [laughter] Like, why? >> Well, maybe you do. I don't know. >> Why tears? What is it about the water coming out of the face that is particularly useful for this? >> It's front and center. And so, it is something that is readily available. It's a really good question. And so this was obviously one of the main questions that our reviewers had is like this why why this why now? And so one possibility is that it was built off of um [sighs and gasps] so if you have an onion and you hold it close to your eyes and the acids kind of interact and you start to tear. Um and so the idea is that this is a negative a negative stimulus. So it's already kind of being associated with there's something negative in the environment um that is affecting me. And so that very much could have been the bootstrapping way that another more negative stuff uh could then have been registered by other people. So to the extent that I mean to the extent that that was possible that would have been one possible lineage for how this came online. >> Okay. [snorts] I I see >> you buying that [laughter] >> to a degree. To a degree I do. Um >> I don't the answer is I don't know. But >> another part of it, another part of it is right. Okay. Yeah. Front and center. Right >> here it is. Um it's very hard to ignore. Uh it is for most people I think it would take a bit of even me with my wimpy cry threshold takes a bit of work for me to get it going. So to usually for most people post apart from the psychopaths a pretty reliable signal of authenticity. So it's uh not it's not cheap. It's not that cheap. Um, another thing has to be you really need your eyes. Like you really really need your eyes to see. And if you choose to have water pour out of them, you have temporarily incapacitated yourself. >> Mhm. >> And if you again another sort of reliability, >> a costly signal >> add-on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. That all that all makes good sense, I think. I mean, look, this paper was just written. and it kind of throws out a whole bunch of ideas and now it's time to say you put it through its paces. Test it and you know see where it goes. I think that you know on the the positive emotion and negative emotions so things like gratitude but also depression and sadness uh and pain. I think that there's a lot there's a lot of work to be done. >> That's a good that's a good point. Why why do people cry during uh I remember the last time I cried due to pain, physical pain. >> Mhm. Uh and I was I think 13 and it was one of my first adult cricket matches. Um I I don't cry due to pain anymore. Physical pain. I don't think that there is an amount of physical pain that I would be put in. It would have to get toward the emotional pain. It would have to be an emotional element of this. Is it just that as you grow up from child to adult, you are able to better understand your capacity to deal with pain and the fact that it doesn't necessarily have an emotional component to it? Like why is it that kids cry when they bruise their knee, but I don't. >> Um I mean I I I still cry when [laughter] I hurt myself. Like I mean I I think yes and don't tell anyone. Um, and so, [laughter] uh, it's a really good question. Listen, as a kid, I think the idea that I I need help, you know, like help me. I'm in pain and this and or, you know, stop this stop this un unattached this bristle. Do something like there. I think there that it definitely is a signal. I'm trying to actually think about it now like cuz, you know, I've cut myself with a knife and have I cried? I think I've cursed more than I've cried. Um, isn't that strange? Isn't it strange? Because it's not, you know, >> but I guess look, the same or similar stimulus can cause different responses. Some breakups may cause somebody to shout and scream in someone's face >> because the the specifics, the the the flavor of that one was canankerous. It was aggressive. It was adversarial. And then another may be loving and and and painful and um uh you like um melancholy and those two would have very different responses. In one somebody may not cry and in another they may. >> So I want to throw I want to give you a hairbrain idea that I had and I I don't think it's going to pay out but I but here's what I was thinking. So um you know after a breakup and you just you cry and like you cry uncontrollably and I was thinking so while I was crying I was like why am I crying like this is [laughter] like I got to stop crying this is like what I want to stop crying like this is done let's be done with this and [laughter] so but then I was wondering the function of it is it like a data dump in the sense of someone that you held such high value for and then you realize and you simulate late and you realize they don't value you anymore and that cost and that kind of ratcheting down of someone valuing you, right? Because you have to literally have that time to have that realization that they do not care about you at all, right? [laughter] So um and so but the idea that potentially crying might be a way that you know it just it's a it's a so yes our social value is ratcheting down but might that it's all chemically mediated. So the question is is it are you also ridding yourself of that? So I was if I had like a a well-funded lab, you know, I would think like if you could possibly capture people's tears as they are going through a breakup to see whether or not, you know, the pre the pre kind of level of I don't know, oxytocin, whatever it is that kind of governs social value and attachment um and closeness, but is it kind of being dumped out through the tears to kind of help kind of re-establish? >> So good. I think that's great. I think that's really cool. I think that's really cool. And I think that someone needs to give you a million dollars so you can go and do it. Um, what it makes me think about is how much of crying is about changing other people's behavior >> and how much is about recalibrating our own emotional state. >> I think there could be multiple things going on. I think there's probably because I think that just like shouting can be done in in most emotional states like different types of shouting could be used to uh help express anger as in joy um or gratitude or shame like uh you know you find that the volume and amplitude of our voice can definitely do that. So why and those are different types of emotions some are internal calibrating some of them are other calibrating. So my anger and gratitude is to calibrate you, [laughter] right? So, but my shame and my pride is calibrating me potentially. So the um in any case, I think that you just put your finger on a really interesting thing that there's probably multiple things going on. >> So cool. So cool. Dead Liberman, ladies and gentlemen, uh you're fantastic. You're part of this weird like council mason masonic like group of cool >> women doing evolutionary [laughter] psychology and everybody needs to follow you and uh I think your works I think your work's wonderful and um I enjoyed speaking with you at HBS and uh I think that you need to keep doing more stuff. So where should people go if they want to check out all of your fun cool work about incest? Um well actually on the center for evolutionary psychology is a whole uh list of a a great set of papers not only on kinship inbreeding avoidance altruism but also morality um and anger and cooperation and coalitional psychology. So, center for evolutionary psychology is where I would uh direct everyone. Um, and also you can read about it in the textbook that is hopefully forthcoming at, you know, at the end of 26, beginning at 27. Um, and if if you will permit me just to say one thing as an academic and the frustration that I often hear a lot of people who want to get access to these things is that they're hit with these pay walls. And so one my business venture with a partner the problem we're solving is allowing people to get access to articles not only news but journal articles uh that are currently held behind pay walls for subscription but allowing people to get just the one article they want when they want it. So that's what I'm up to. >> When's that available? Can I get that now? >> Um check an app store soon. Uh Mediabyte, we are on it. >> Okay. When do you think it'll be launched? When it'll be live? >> Uh hopefully late 26. Okay. Well, hurry up because I need that. Uh, Deb, you're great. Keep doing your thing. >> Thank you. You, too. Be well. This is great. >> Congratulations. You made it to the end of an episode. Your brain has not been completely [music] destroyed by the internet just yet. Here's another one that you should watch. Go on.