Why Does The Female Orgasm Exist? - Dr Robert King

How did you get into studying the female orgasm? >> Um, let's just go dive straight in. Um, okay. So, my background was I was a school teacher for 20 years. Um, and I uh was interested in psychology and math. So, that's what I taught. About 20 years ago, I came across a really interesting book by a woman called Elizabeth Lloyd. Uh, it was uh bias in the science of of evolution. I was on holiday in Thailand. Uh, I read it. Um, the book told me that female orgasm did nothing. uh had no function and uh to say I was I was surprised would be an understatement and uh I I just I got interested and I started studying evolutionary biology and I approached uh some prominent figures in the field and said I think I have an you seem to have an issue here uh studying this subject I think um and it it and you know the sort of you know I'm obviously quite a nerdy kind of character I delve into these things I read the original stuff and once I started reading the original stuff it became obvious that there two very distinct traditions of of studying um human sexuality, particularly female orgasm. One of them went down this this strange route of saying it did nothing and another one which had been somewhat uh sidelined suggested actually had some really interesting functions. >> What was your what was your intuition? What was it that you thought early on, huh, this this seems to be a fruitful area to research more into? Um it became obvious from a fairly early stage that a number of the people who were opining about female orgasm were not studying sex at all. Uh not in any kind of you know sense of of actually being in the room with other people having sex. Uh that's why I start off the book by talking about animals in zoos and mating captivity because what was being studied in laboratories just felt a lot like studying mating in captivity and that doesn't doesn't capture the the range of what humans are up to or interested in. It doesn't capture the range of what other animals are interested uh makes him interesting either to be honest. Yeah. Um I mean it's you know that's why I start off the book talking about COVID and the fact that uh I I live next to photo which is a terrific um uh wildlife park and I recommend it highly. And we have the uh the breeding uh group of of a number of animals. Uh giraffes uh cheetahs. We've got some new tigers there. What else have we got? Uh lions. And they've all had babies. And one of the reasons they had babies is cuz they have privacy. uh they can hide away from humans when they don't don't want to play with us and do want to play with each other. >> What does sex research in the lab look like when it's done well, when it's done badly? What what are the mechanisms of of how you do this? >> Well, I'm I'm not I mean I certainly I'm not not going to uh reject all lab-based research, but one of the primary platforms on which a lot of sex research is based is listeners will probably have heard of Masters and Johnson because there was a TV series about them. I think it was called Masters of Sex a few years back and they are they're the sort of the famous sex researchers from the 60s and the essence of their research into female orgasm was to get half a dozen women um to get them to masturbate to orgasm in a lab and they inserted a uh a glass tube which they called ulyses inside them which had a camera and they measured the results and genuinely that was the that was the platform on which they based the whole idea that female orgasm didn't really have any function >> right slightly I wouldn't say it was done badly, but I I I would just say that it wasn't the final word. >> Okay. And what does better sex research or female orgasm research in a lab look like? >> Well, um the at the same time Marson and Johnson were doing their stuff in labs. There was a a team in England, uh the Foxes, who were both doctors, but they're also they were married and they were having sex in their own marital bedroom. and the the um very intrepid kind of uh pioneers and and and heroes of the field. Uh so Dr. Fox misses inserted a telemetry device and a pressure change device inside herself and had sex with her husband on the marital bed and then measured the pressure changes. >> Okay, that sounds like Yeah. pioneering work. >> Mhm. Yes. and and they and they and they found some very interesting I mean that's I'm just giving one example of the the work that was done but uh it was they they they found something that masters and Johnson didn't which was that female orgasm is associated I mean they they studied oxytocin action and uh they they studied pressure uh utrine interuterrine pressure changes and that that provides a mechanism for for orgasm to to increase fertility. >> So in many ways they were sort of the foundation of the of the of the thread that that we picked up 50 years later. There are other people in that thread, you know, it's not not just sort of me and you our team and the foxes. There's there's a a huge team in central Europe led by a guy called Ludvig Vilt who did a whole load of stuff on oxytocin throughout the late 80s and and 90s as well. And you know, they they sort of uh amplified this research. >> What do most people get wrong when it comes to understanding female orgasm? >> Oh, blime me. Um well, um I think the because it's they think because it it it's comparatively difficult to bring about. there has to be something wrong either with women uh or with nature in general um or with um uh no actually no those are the those are the two dominant fields. So rather than thinking that uh women are picky and choosy in other fields and you can apply that principle to uh their their orgasmic response, they sort of go well either women are sort of psychologically broken which is basically Freud's theory um or that they're just badly designed by a capricious nature which is the byproduct theory. >> Go a little deeper on the byproduct theory for me. >> Mhm. Okay. So starting off uh in the 1970s um with um uh a pioneer called um uh Simons. It was it was uh it was he wrote a book called the evolution of human sexuality. Back in the 70s it was the the full structure and nature of the clitoris. You you might have been mistaken for thinking that it was as he described it uh which was something a bit like a male nipple and uh i.e. sort of small functionless external and uh and not particularly uh not particularly interesting. Now, actually, if you if you delved even even into the uh the specialist research at the time, I mean, that that that story would not have got off the ground because actually, you know, there were people who knew that wasn't true. But it was possible to believe that in the 1970s. By the time we got to the 1990s, it, you know, it really wasn't possible to believe that. However, the idea had sort of taken root that the the the the main area of sensitivity in women was was external and then therefore it was plausible for example that it was almost impossible to generate orgasm through um normal penetrative intercourse. And the the idea behind it was and you know Steve G I mean part of this was publicized by Steve Gold who was an extremely famous and and popular paleontologist and because uh he was considered to be a big supporter of evolutionary theory and and particularly in the states where evolution is is sort of massively politicized and it also became a religious thing. The fact that he was a supporter of evolution meant that people were were willing to elied over the fact that he was politically very opposed to the applying of of evolutionary theory to human beings. I mean to to put it bluntly, he thought that if human beings uh started applying evolutionary theory to themselves, they'd all turn into fascists. So the important thing to do was to stop the and this isn't this isn't me saying this. I mean his his evolution for the people uh group sort of pretty much uh pretty much said that and he championed this idea that uh that female orgasm was a byproduct and then Elizabeth lawy was was his sort of protege and colleague and so her book was the one I read. >> Right. >> That was that was the one that started me off. >> Is this is this similar to sort of looking at it like a spandrel of some kind? >> Yes. Yes. The whole spandrel thing. Yeah. Um this uh that would be a very good example of uh of of Gould's kind of thinking on this. Um I mean you know they're not called spandrels. In fact this would be typical of Steve Gould. I mean he he his famous paper is called the spandrels of S Marcos and it's this idea that these these ornate structures weren't actually integral to the the um the structure of the cathedral. Uh they're just byproducts. But actually the the structures in question aren't even called spandrels. Um uh they're called penditives. Uh and in fact they are integral to the structure. >> Oh for [ __ ] sake. Right. Okay. So, I'm wrong twice. >> No, no, no. You're not you're not wrong at all. Um, you you're you're you're accurately reporting what the literature says. It's just that Ste Steve Gold is is is just notorious for this. He will he will sort of drop these things into and and and then people will sort of pick it up and they'll they'll go around and they'll they'll say things like, "Oh, well, you know, these these things are just spandrels or um or these things are just I mean, one one of his favorites is just so stories." and he he's done a huge amount of damage in in the in the literature because people just sort of dismiss adaptive adaptationist ideas and they think that they've got Steve Gould's backing for for doing so. >> Oh yeah, we are talking the same language here. Um okay, so to to recap what we're doing now, >> show you briefly why Steve why Steve is Steve Gould is wrong. I' I've just taken a carrying. So this this this here is a clitoris. Um and I can't remember whether I said >> that's not that's not that's not a clitoris. That's a Pokemon. >> Well, this is this is a this is a life-sized clitoris. And I've been giving these away with the book. Um, and the because I mean I have I've got chapters in the book that are obviously devoted to to looking at the nature and structure and form and function, all the rest of it. Um, but there is there is nothing quite so dramatic as just sort of going the clitoris isn't what you think it is. You think it's something like a male nipple, you know, and it isn't. Look, you look at the size of it. It's about 4 in long. Most of it is internal. Um, it's got ducts. It's multiply innovated. It's got its own smata sensory cortex associated with it in the brain. you know, and and it none of those things are true of male nipples. >> Is it correct to say that the clitoris is the only part of the human body which is exclusively designed for pleasure? >> Um, no, I don't think so. I I'm not I I wouldn't say it is just exclusively designed for pleasure. I think it's not accidentally designed for pleasure. Uh, but and but Oh, hello. We've I lost I lost you there for a second. Uh, but but pleasure always does a job, doesn't it? if if something is if something is is is pleasant for humans. Uh Dan Dennett does a a nice talk on this on a TED talk a couple years back. So was it called sweet, cute, sexy, funny, I think is the name of the talk, the the order might be different. And and his point which I think is a very good one. It's that if nature needs you to do a job uh which would otherwise be a chore then then it makes it pleasurable or it makes it you know there is there is a there is a >> right maybe I should have rewarded what I said. uh the the approximate reason for the clitoris is pleasure and are you aware of any other areas of the human body where the proximate reason for their existence is also just pleasure? >> Um so that's an interesting question. Uh I would I think you're almost certainly right in so far as it's got the the highest concentration of of nerve endings associated with pleasure. Um so um women are lucky that way. And there is this there is this old story isn't there that the the the um guy Tresas who was the the prophet apparently uh the reason he was made blind by the gods was because because he'd been a man and a woman various times and somebody asked him uh so so you know give us what's the $64,000 question here. Who has the most fun during sex? And he went oh women easily. Um and uh so they blinded him cuz you're not allowed to say that in public if you're if you're Greek prophet. >> Interestingly, I remember listening to a podcast talking about >> either men who transitioned or women who transitioned >> and the difference in the experience of orgasm >> when when they had different hormonal profiles. Um, and the pivot I think it was female to male and the difference being much more local. Well, actually, you can tell me. Have you looked at this? Is this something? >> I not I mean I I I don't uh I I hang around people who who do a lot of that kind of research. I don't I don't do it directly but the the the glands of the clitoris this so the the the bit that a lot lot of people are talking about is so if you imagine sort of the um the walls of the the the the lips of the vulva sort of around there the the bit that's that's visible is what people think of as as the clitoris and it's the glands of the clitoris and that's where the bulk of the the nerve endings are and that's that's a bit which you you want to keep uh if you're doing uh vaginalloplasty you want you want to make sure that that stays around um because otherwise um or if you're doing phalloplasty Um you that's that's where a lot of the nerve endings are. But okay, you know, >> so if Freud uh women are psychologically broken, that's not a thing. If we're saying it's not a spandrel, that it's not some byproduct like male nipples. How is the female orgasm adaptive? Can you make the case for the other side of this argument? >> Sure. Um well I think I mean what I think one of the difficulties is that uh if you ask women about their orgasms quite often they'll say well you know which ones do you mean? Um so just park that for a second because it does their their experiences are more um multifaceted than the male ones. But parking that for a moment the the the common thread that runs through pretty much uh all of this is oxytocin mediated peristalis. So we and and the thing that's that's kind of interesting about that is >> what's peris? So peristalysis is the the pulsing which creates pressure changes and uh administering oxytocin uh artificially which is what the the the vilt team did uh in the '9s will will create those those pressure changes and they'll they'll create um movement um in the uh the ovduct but uh orgasm creates a big flow of oxytocin it has it has the same effect and we've known about this uh in humans for 50 years that was the basis of the fox studies and we've known about it in animal models uh going back nearly 100 years there's particularly there's there's German research going back into the late 20s, early 30s looking at rapid sperm transport in in uh rats, uh dogs, rabbits, uh and then uh animals that are important for agriculture like sheep and uh and pigs and cattle and horses. Now, we don't know what those animals are experiencing. And that's that's the advantage of being a humanologist is you can go up and you can sort of go, you know, to your to your human participants, do you feel um and you've got a big long list of things that we know oxytocin does like it makes you feel floaty. It gives you a sense of trust. It creates breath apnea. All you know and you can ask say they can they can tick these things off and go, "Yep, I get that. Yep, I get that." Now, you can't you can't ask that of uh of dogs and and horses, but you can you can still measure the oxytocin levels. Does that is that answer the question or am I am I going out completely? >> No, no, not at all. I think it increases oxytocin levels, but when most people think about oxytocin, we're thinking about pair bonding. We're thinking about sort of loveydovey sense of buyin. We're thinking about well, you know, we need to stick together if we're going to eventually have kids and I need to be invested in you and I need to see you not as an a stranger but as kin. Um, but you're talking about other stuff. You're just not just talking about pair bonding effects of oxytocin. So, what is doing? >> It's it's even more basic than that. The the it look it looks it looks like and this this is going back phogenetically. It looks like the origin of oxytocin is uh milk production. So it is it's the basic mamalian uh hormone and the uh the thing that it seems to have been primarily associated with is producing um producing milk. So that you know that we are mammals. um it just it has these other functions as well. And as the as the milk production uh started coexisting with the other features of um of being mammals like for example having um altruial young not not all not all mammals have altruial young but some of them do. >> Alishial >> so they they need a lot of um need a lot of care. >> So they I mean they need they need to hang around I'm sorry all all mammals need to hang around the mother a bit because they're being mammals. They're suckling milk. But some of them need a lot more care than others. And human babies need the most care of all. And creating a bond between the uh the mother and the baby is is another uh function of oxytocin. And it looks like nature was just lazy. And it just went, well, we can we can we can do this with with with mothers and offsp. This is one of the this one of the things that's that's interesting about Freud. Freud sort of thought that males would be would be shocked if they realized that um the the sort of the inst the the nurturing instincts um the the sex instincts were being turned into nurturing instincts. And like a lot of things with Freud, I think he got it precisely the wrong way round. The primary instinct was bonding with offspring. And some of that is just sort of overspilled into going, "Oh, it's probably nice to keep a guy around as well." Right. So, what is happening mechanically that is adaptive with regards to female orgasm? Presumably, it's doing something to do with likelihood of conception or or something else. Before we even get into the interpretation the sort of like uh social relational aspects of this what like mechanically how does it help or hinder? >> So the the utrine peristis creates pressure changes and uh you can you can actually you can actually measure the the movement of of sperm like product. Now this is where it become this is becomes where it becomes difficult of course to do this in laboratories. So we sort of have to to measure these things in in various different ways. Uh the Fox team actually measured the pressure changes directly um by while they were having sex and then they also measured uh similar effects by just administering oxytocin. Uh Vilt's team expanded this out and I think eventually they measured up uh end up measuring certainly 100 it might have been even twice that women with with large oxytocin uh doses and then introducing spermatogenic well spermlike material. And then we we came around uh in 2016 and came up with a way of um of measuring uh back flow. So there's a phenomenon called backflow which is up to an hour after sex uh the vagina will eject material uh from the reproductive tract and you can measure the amount that's that's that's come out. Now if you uh if you if you will people know what a moon cup is? It's a it's a device that you can use for collecting um uh period fluid uh if you don't want to insert things. Now, if if we we we um just produced a method for inject injecting something that was like a sperm-like material, putting in a moon cup and then creating a deep orgasm in inside the woman in question and then measuring up to an hour later what came out and 15 to 20% less comes out if she's had an orgasm. >> Right. Is the timing important? I have to assume that if you've got the fluid in and then the orgasm happens that that's more effective than the other way round. But uh that I'm going to guess on average is less likely to happen given that once the man's done, he's done. Uh it's it's very difficult to measure. We we we need to come up with a method of of of injecting a known amount inside. And of course men will vary in the amount they're producing. So you you you can't tell how much is coming out unless you've controlled what's going in. And if you're doing that then then obviously you're moving away from from actual intercourse. So like like a lot of these things you it's extremely difficult to produce one study that just sort of >> timing though. I mean in terms if if if what you're saying is that there is this um change in pressure which it it seems like sort of sucks semen up towards where where it needs to go in sort of simple people language. Um, if that is created by orgasm or if that's more more prevalent when orgasm is reached than when it's not, then I have to assume that it means you need the substance in there and then for female orgasm to occur for that to happen. But that's not the way round that sex works. >> Oh, I see. Yeah. Um, right. Yes. No, I I see what you're saying. Yeah. It it looks like the um the orgasm is one thing and the uh the movement of uh of material is another. So it there there is there is quite possibly an initial uh movement along with the orgasm. But once orgasm is happening what's um sorry once oxytocin levels are raised then it looks like those pressure changes are actually persist for quite a while. Um and it's not it's not just the bit where you're you're feeling pleasure that that insuck is happening. Although it's I I mean I would hazard a guess that it's heightened at that moment but we've not measured that bit directly and I think I think that it was precisely that that got Baker and Bellis um uh confused in the '90s because I think they they thought that women were timing their orgasm and the orgasm itself was creating insect um and that they were they were then generating sperm wars. Have you come across this research? >> Is this like sperm competition? >> Yes, the sort of the direct sperm compet and this is the stuff that that hasn't been replicated. My suspicion is that the what what they were looking for was something where the orgasm just caused in in almost more more or less an instant hit. So you you would have to have um you would have to have sperm from rivals in there at sort of the same kind of time and have a sperm war between them. And it was all uh it was all exciting and dramatic stuff, but it it's defied replication, I'm afraid. >> Okay. You said different categories of female orgasm. What are you talking about there? >> Right. So when we first started off doing this we and we we just sort of really um just opened it up uh to ask women what you what should scientists be asking them and a significant number not all but a significant number said sort of well that's a dumb question which ones do you mean? Um and uh they said well you you know and we said well you you tell us which ones you mean and they come up with various kinds of descriptors of of location intensity uh and associated feelings. And so that was that was just sort of qualitative stuff just to get us off um thinking about it. And so we then created a a questionnaire which which asked people we're very very careful because there's been this big history of separating orgasms into clitoreral and vaginal and that sort of goes back to Freud and and and other people as well. And it has it has a lot of history behind it and it's also what masters and Johnson were trying to overturn. So we're very very careful to stay away from those things for a whole bunch of reasons. partly the history and also because um as as I was just showing with the the the the clitoris, the clitoris is the seat of orgasm, but it's it's quite a large organ and all orgasms, all female orgasms seem to involve the clitoris in some way. So, we we we wanted to keep away from all of that. But, uh when we just asked asked women to to describe their orgasms in, you know, with a quite a complicated questionnaire and then analyze them, um the they did seem to fall into two fairly distinct categories. ones that were very very broadly ones were experienced on the surface which tended to be more intense and ones uh that were experienced deep inside which seem to have more of the uh oxytocin elements although I have to stress we weren't measuring oxytocin directly uh we we're measuring plausible conccommatants of oxytocin like the breath apnea um the floaty feelings feelings of trust and all the rest of it and it looks like the ones that are associated with penetration and deep inside have more of those kinds of things associated with them however that doesn't we wouldn't we didn't want to sort of separate them into these are better than others and certainly the women themselves didn't um there's no there are some sort of neoidian scholars who want to sort of argue that like Freud did that certain orgasms are more mature than others and uh or mentally healthier than others and we weren't going down that route >> right uh I guess the obvious link here is that the deeper orgasm with the more oxytocin results in the paristelis results in the pressure changes because the deeper orgasm is brought on by something being in there and that something has maybe got some sperm that's coming out the end of it and the surface orgasm is maybe just you on your own or something else. So you don't need that level of oxytocin. Is that the theory? >> Something something like that. Yeah. I mean although I I I I would be have to be honest and say we're going beyond uh I'm speculating somewhat because you we haven't we haven't measured the oxytocin levels but it looks like um and and also I mean that would that would also help explain why we don't need to decide between uh whether it's a mate choice or a side choice thing. It could be doing both. Um and it certainly seems to be the case that if you if you find cultures where for example the man giants in Polynia um who were sort of people that Simons was talking about but I think he was um uh trying to impose a model on one on a group that where it didn't fit. um the the the women in those in those cultures are very much in charge of the sexuality and the young men in those cultures are not allowed to have sex with the young girls of their own age until they prove themselves on the older women and quite a lot of that involves them having to make sure that the older women have have or several orgasms before a penis any goes anywhere near them. So it looks like uh when women are calling the shots they are very happy to have you know whichever orgasms and they they may well all contribute to fertility in some way. M what are the biggest predictors of female orgasm? >> Oh um the the biggest one we found uh was attractive partner smell which um we we found really interesting because that was that was when we went from the sort of describe your orgasm types to us to well describe your partners to us. uh one of the first things that they said we should ask about was part of the smell and it turned out to be the the uh I mean none of these are huge effect sizes but but that's because the sort of data you collect with these these things is tends to be quite uh quite muddy but it was the the largest effect size and that's interesting because it suggests that the the biggest predictor is is something to do with genetic compatibility because that's how we're advertising our genetic compatibility to each other with uh with smell. >> Okay. What else? What are some of the other predictors? uh dominance uh sexual dominance um and also at the same time considerateness. So those those things might seem to be pulling in opposite directions but I I I actually don't think they are for for a bunch of interesting reasons. We als we also asked a raft of sort of the usual bunch of questions that evolutionists ask about things like muscularity and um uh that kind of stuff and none of that none of that came out. So, uh it looks like people want somebody who is um a uh sexually dominant but not uh but but also considerate um nice smelling partner who uh pays close attention and uh provides deep penetration. >> Those those would be those would be the the big four. >> Okay. Where does attraction come into this? Where does level of attraction come into this? Um I Yes, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Um I'm I suppose it then depends on how you're going to uh decompose desire. If if you're going to break it down into just um sort of uh uh whether a guy is good-looking or not, we haven't actually found anything that's that's a predictor there. But um there's there's there's so many compounds in there because there women are often not going to go to bed with someone they don't find desirable in the first place. So, uh, we we need to be able to make discrim we need to be able to discriminate between the various guys that the women are talking about. I mean, that that was that was what was interesting in the init, um, in the 2012 study we did is because we were asking women explicitly to make comparisons between different sexual encounters because we're asking them to describe different orgasms. Um, and I' I'd like to I'd like to follow that up with a with a with a bunch of other um uh bunch of other measures because there are some sort of fairly obvious things that make males attractive that as far as we know so far aren't predictive of orgasm. So, I mean, I haven't done this research myself, but Dan Nettle and and I've just forgotten the the guy's name, his student at the time, Tom. It'll come back to me. Um, they looked at things like like finance and that didn't seem to have an effect. I think some people have looked at height and that doesn't seem to have had an effect. Um, they're the kind of things you think might because you might think, well, these these would we would would would spark off certain triggers saying, you know, high status, prestige, acquisition, >> all of all of that kind of stuff. And I'm not for a second saying that they they they aren't there to be measured, but we we haven't we haven't measured them in such a way yet that they've come out as being predictive. I suppose it's interesting because trying to get a representative sample of men having sex with women would require women to get rid of their filter for which men they want to have sex with, it's like, "No, no, no, no, you must have sex with one from each category." And it's like, "No, I've already pre-selected." So when you try and control for other things, it's pretty difficult. >> Yes. Um I mean that and it's one of the reasons why we, you know, we we we have to use um data which are not necessarily the the the most u most robot. We can't do randomized control trials here. Um, alas um uh and um and if we could the ethics um the ethics teams wouldn't let us. Um I'm pretty confident of that. >> Getting in the way again. Okay. How much uh how much of female desire of men is driven by other females desire of those same men do you think? >> Yes. Um considerable. I mean there there are female groupies there aren't male groupies. Um and there's there's good reasons for that. crisis of female rock stars. >> Well, right. Yes. No, you I mean you you you you know all about this stuff, you know, the the whole fisherian sexy sun stuff. Uh women need to queue off one another because what counts as being success in the local environment is not always immediately obvious, whereas what counts as being fertile in the local environment is is is obvious. Men men have a baseline, you know, what they find attractive. Um and and uh I mean women might do as well, but it's it's it's a considerably different one. I mean, the number of men who can just get away with being beautiful, well, we know their names, you know, they're the ones who can be on telly, being models, and being film stars, all the rest of it. The rest of us have to have some other kinds of qualities. >> You're not allowed to play the guitar or do poetry. >> That's the kind of thing. Yes. Yeah. They they and and there's a reason why those groupies get all excited because it makes sense. You know, if if a local local peacock is just slightly more pretty because his feathers are slightly brighter, um then he might have have sons whose feathers are also brighter. And so you know it makes sense for them to queue off each other which they seem to. >> Sexy sun hypothesis is so fascinating to me and uh it makes an awful lot of sense. I remember seeing I remember seeing some fascinating research around the attitudes of uh women to casual sex based on whether they had sons or daughters. Oh, >> so interesting to me like that I guess uh like ecological component of of of how we show up of how our um programming can be adapted to the local environment. Um okay. So what >> and it's also one of the reasons I think a lot of the time that we we we men are are blind to female female competition because there's a real I mean the the the the mere existence of a sexy son's hypothesis immediately means that there's going to be a tension doesn't there because the women are going sexiest sun creator out there and then if you don't get him then it means you need to get you want Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I suppose, you know, going back to the groupies thing, uh, the idea of lots of other men competing for the same woman as you is very different to the idea of other women competing for the same man that you're after. Um, I guess in the same way that men like to go to the gym in order to get bigger muscles, they the kind of male male competition is inherently exciting. But I don't you're you're totally right. Like I don't know. And I suppose the other the other issue that you have is because women are so much more choosy the pool the groupy pool that you're pulling from as a woman of of high I mean like what what do you even what's the level of attractiven like status the guys don't care about your status but that comparatively you know I'm speaking in very broad strokes here um they don't care about your ability to acquire resources they don't care that much about your level of competence beyond being smart you know you being being nice being caring being funny, conscientious, like stuff that people that have done a bit of work will have an understanding of, but for the most part, you know, the the most talented woman on the planet is competing with a 21-year-old barista from Starbucks. Uh, and it's I guess in some ways kind of a a much more vicious hierarchy and then in other ways men's hierarchy is much more vicious as well because it's much more sort of winner takes all. But yeah, you're sir. I mean, female intraexual competition for me, I spent basically probably half of 2023 just obsessing over intraexual competition, especially among women. >> And um >> you you had um Benson on your show, didn't you? >> Benson's been on, Christina Ganti's been on, Sarah Hills been on, Cory Clark came off like, you know, I I've I've done the rounds, so to speak. >> First race scientists. No, no. These are terrific people to have on. Um because I think men often need they need their we need our eyes open to this because otherwise uh you know we just miss stuff. >> Well, we do. But I look I think it's fascinating to observe the kind of very fine scalpel >> that women use the way like venting. Have you have you looked at venting much? >> Nope. >> Oh, sit down. >> Tell us about venting. >> Let me let me spin you a yarn. Um, so venting is a really unique type of gossip. Um, venting is gossip disguised as compassion. So, um, if I'm saying to you, uh, I'm Christina, you're Regina. Uh, and I'm saying, Regina, I'm really worried about Emma. you know, she's just sleeping with all of these guys and I'm just really worried that she's gonna get hurt or, you know, like it's just I mean, I would never I I couldn't do that. I I couldn't do that to myself. I I'm just really worried about her. And so, what am I saying in that short sentence? What am I telling you? I'm telling you about how much sex she's having. I'm positioning myself morally uh in terms of purity, ficcundity, all that sort of stuff above I I would never. It allows me to uh deriggate a potential sexual rival whilst couching it in care and compassion. So if I ever get called up, it's look, I'm sorry, but I'm just worried about you and I didn't think she was going to tell anybody either. And dude, it is >> it and guys are just it just goes past us. We just we're absolutely blind to it. We're like the kid from the sixth sense but in reverse. >> Mhm. Right. Yes. Yeah. No, I I first had my eyes open to this by I told you I was a school teacher and um I the some of the students I was teaching were going you know why why why don't we study female female competition? I went and this was this a few years ago now um 20 25 years ago. Well, we don't really study that. Well, you should you know and we had an afternoon so they made me watch uh Mean Girls and and it was just sort of okay. So, I I realized there's this sort of world that I'm aware of, but like a dog, you know, there were these whistles I wasn't picking up. And then we've just in the last 30 years I've I've seen it happen. We've just got we've got far more female scientists doing behavioral science, and you know, they're just not letting that kind of stuff not be studied. Um, and it's sexy. I mean, I don't think it was I don't think it was the the men being sort of deliberately sexist. It's just we weren't picking up on those things a lot of the time. >> Yeah. I mean, I mean, come on. There's there's ways that men compete. Actually, no, that's a lie. I was I was going to try and make some equivocation, but it's wrong because male competition is very upfront. It's very obvious. Female competition, but female competition I'm I'm just going to go down the intraexual thing. I want to show off to you for a second. Um the reason that female introsexual competition is so subtle and couched and um deniable. I think that's really really important. The fact that the deniability of it, >> the reason for that is that on average women are more fragile and more valuable, right? can't afford to lose them and they are easier to kill basically is one >> and also frequently I think in history not around their kin I think that was a big that's a big >> feature as well they've to form coalitions yeah >> yeah what's that called patrolocal >> uh yes yeah >> yeah so they've been patrolized I guess um and what this means is if you try to start a fight with fists as a woman well the woman that's up against you like the the damage is going to be maybe quite high and it's a big risk and all the rest of it. So you have to use these very subtle forms of status interplay and one of the one of the uh real concerns again because there is a guy at the top but the guys tend to um be more collaborative when it comes to looking at how the status hierarchy works because someone can be really great in one area but not in the other. Whereas this may this might be controversial thing to say the winner takes all happens for women too, right? because they get the guy they get the guy who's got the most resources. So, they're downstream from his level of status also. And um there's this great really great study. I think it was Joyce Benson that I can't remember quite who did it. Um female female basketball players on the same team show less physical affection to each other than male basketball players on opposite teams. >> Yeah, I remember the study. Yes. No, I was >> so [ __ ] interesting. I I've I've got a colleague um a colleague in pretty much the next office to me and she she was um a national uh level player. I can't remember what she think hypothesis >> she absolutely agreed with it and she said no I've been on the receiving end of that repeatedly. I could I could show you I could take you to places and show you that in action. She said this is absolutely true. Yeah. Um and have you have you seen the the research done on um the number of deaths among children of co-wives? Um, so there's I think I think I think is it the Dugon? I don't quote me on this because I'd have to look it up, but there's there is a there's a a group where um they're still uh to some extent um uh polygamous and the uh the law courts of particular countries, one of the one of the the ex-French French colonies are largely taken up with poisonings where the um >> is this Cinderella effect stuff? >> Yeah, the so well you Well, except the Yes, the but they're they're the still living steparents. So you so the the high status man will have three or four wives. Um but but a couple of the couple of the sons of one of the wives the child mortality is a lot higher than it should be that kind of stuff. So there there's a lot of tensions going on beneath the surface um of humans you know and we I mean we sort of and I I I think sex researchers we because we tend to be sort of softy liberal indoor types we tend to sort of assume that uh everybody um would would like to everyone else to have sort of mutually um satisfying sex lives. And so when we actually come across the reality of of of human sexuality can be can be a bit of a a bit damaging because of course it's not true. You know >> I remember I remember reading in Gad Sad's book uh talking about happiness. He said um the right amount of sex that you want in your relationship is not just as much as you want but it's just a little bit more than the amount that your friends around you are having as well. the most intimate private thing that you're going to do maybe except for prayer is still you've got this you're enshed in your local hierarchy and you're think how many times did you win the white three [ __ ] we only did one you know >> and I I wouldn't believe and that was um that was one of the things that that really got me interested way I mean way way back before um I I switched careers um back when I was doing my first degree there was Um, uh, I I I I was I'd be about 19. Uh, had a new girlfriend. Uh, there was a friend of ours doing the degree. She was a lot older than us. She was actually she was the editor of The Face. Um, so she was almost a generation older than us. And I remember we were at the pub and she said, "Well, how do you know if she's not faking with you?" Um, and it wasn't quite the scene from where Harry met Sally, but it was sort of and and I just remember thinking and I just in my innocence I why would you? you'll be like sort of and and then the whole table just sort of erupted in laughter cuz Yeah. >> Can you explain go a little bit more deeply into the reveal the veil of what you're talking about here. >> Yeah. Well, um so I mean invariably I'll I mean if I do talks on this I'll I'll play that scene from where Harry met Sally the the the famous one you know where where she she fakes an orgasm and and everybody sort of collapses into laughter and it's it's a great scene but it's also a very curious event when you think about it. I mean, if you know, if I if I if we had a game of tennis, um I mean, that'd be a very bad idea because I'm I can't play the game, but you know, imagine that, you know, I could and I sort of go, well, you had I had a great game with with with with Chris and and and Chris is saying, yeah, idiot Rob, he thinks I enjoyed that game of tennis. I didn't have a good time at all. Just idiot. Yeah. I mean, it it wouldn't make any sense. Yeah. This is meant to be something of of mutual enjoyment. Um and yet somehow uh it's sort of obvious to people that and so you look at the approximate level and women say well of course you faking it because I'm you I'm bored with him um you I just want him to stop or he's just he's not pressing the right buttons and I felt sorry for him or is his ego and all of those things might be true but they're very superficial. They don't take us to the the number of anything that firstly they don't tell us why men are interested in it as a signal. I mean that so that that's so so male comedians might turn around and go well I don't care so she's faking it. I'm fine with that, you know. Um, which they're not, but you know, they they can make a joke out of it. Um, secondly, it doesn't doesn't explain um why uh why you go to that kind of effort to signal because I mean women are usually quite happy to turn around and tell men they're not interested in them. You that's not usually a problem for women to kind of go not if you you know even even in you know they'll say things like even in a competition of z of one you'd be a loser you know which is what's if you were the last guy on earth I wouldn't sleep. That's right. Yeah. Even in a competition of one you still come out zero. Um so you women aren't usually that uh shy about say so why in this case um and I think once you start thinking about these things in terms of signals then you start think well what what exactly is being signaled here what one of the things is being signaled for the guy I mean I think um and I was uh I was before co happened have you had Athena on your show Athena at Keepis she does >> yes didn't she do stuff about [ __ ] the end of the world >> she did do stuff about zombies in the end of the world yes >> um I uh uh and at one We were we were in touch with she did a lot of stuff about laughter and um we were going to do a joint thing about laughter and then s covid came along and various other things got in the way. Well, one of the main things she found was that laughter can be faked and that you can actually you can look at the sound pattern of laughter being faked and um basically if it's voiced it's it's more likely to be fake. So if I go haha you know that's that's an obviously fake laugh. And there but there are some edge cases where it's not obvious where it's faked or not. And we're going to apply the same thing to orgasms. Uh because there are there are signals of orgasms that are voiced and unvoiced. And the moment you start bringing that into it, you start well why you why do people fake laughter? Well, because laughter is a signal that you're accepted. Laughter is a signal that you're dominant. Laughter is a signal that somebody likes you. You know, and those are all kinds of things you might want somebody to think even if they're not true. Um and so why would why would somebody want to think that um you know that that they orgasmed when they haven't? Well, similar kinds of ideas, you know, that that actually uh you have got a good chance of making this person pregnant, therefore you should invest or you you know, this person is attached to you uh even if they're not. And u at some point it'd be nice to do a follow-up and and apply the stuff that she was um saying about laughter to to orgasm sounds. The the other thing, of course, is you're not just signaling to the guy. Um you you could also be signaling to people around. You know, this guy is now attached to me. Um we had listen to >> in the same way this is a really cool intraexual competition uh insight around women who get their husbands to buy them expensive handbags. So the the the unique thing about handbags is that it is a kind of signal like plastic surgery. A lot of the money that gets spent by women is uh beautifification but beautifification is something that's picked up by men but there are certain types of I guess enhancement in some ways or certain types of expenditure that are only picked up by women and these are the ones that are really interesting and you know a a a niche collector's edition handbag. Oh, yeah. Like that that 8 million pound one that was sold the other day. >> I didn't see that, but I I imagine probably something like that. And you go, okay, well, what is that saying? It's it's saying only to other women. Beware, my husband is so invested in me that he's got this [ __ ] niche Malbury bag that's got the the orange liner and this the longer strap, whatever the whatever. Um, so it's a a special type of signal like that. And I suppose it's it's not too dissimilar in this way. So I guess what's interesting here is sex we think of as being cooperative unless it's unless it's coercive and that you know that's a a world a world that we don't want to talk about. Sex is cooperative but you've you've just made the case there that sex can absolutely be competitive and sensitive as well. >> Oh yeah. No, it has all of those things associated with it. And the thing is I mean one of the things I find fascinating is is we kind of know this and yet we keep on pretending that we don't. um uh I mean for for I mean give let give let me give an example of exa exactly um uh what I mean by sort of pretending we don't know it. So roughly every every generation um the same book basically gets published and this it's it's always written um anonymously by a woman and it has the same plot which is you have a sexually dominant male uh who is brought to realize that he wants to commit yeah wants to commit to this particular female. There are always uh very strong BDSM ele elements to it. There is a non-acal spread of male names. They're quite often Mr. Gray. Uh quite often they just have a title like a captain. Uh they don't have full names at all. Uh there are often very strong BDSM themes. There is there is Anias Nins um Delta Venus. Uh there was Emanuel by Emanuel. There was nine and a half weeks. Uh there was Secretary um which was I missed out story of O. Um and of course Fifty Shades of Gray. And each time one of these books comes out, uh, people go, "Oh my god, you know, this is a woman being subjected to the evils of the patriarchy." Um, what what woman has written this? And and and and but we just keep doing this to ourselves as a species. And and a woman comes out and she goes, "No, I wrote this." Uh, and then and then the reason you've heard all of those is because a movie has been made out of each one of those very successfully to which women dragged their men folk in droves going, "Be a bit more like that." Um, and then we and then and then we just pretend it doesn't happen again. And I I tried to write a bit about this in the book because I'm not saying it's the only female fantasies, but far from it, but it's it's a it's a not uncommon one. It's a not uncommon pattern. >> So fascinating insight on that. [ __ ] Who is who is the I'm going to have to be really crude here. >> Mhm. >> I'm going to have to be really crude because I can't I can't remember a [ __ ] name. Who is the blondhaired big boobed sex researcher who did the come on face research? >> Oh. Uh, not not um not not um well I've got no thing is I know these people so whatever I say I could I could get myself in trouble here thinking either Katherine Salmon or >> Katherine Salmon thank you. Don't say the second one. No need to say the second one. >> Um Katherine Katherine Salmon told me and this is one my this is one of my favorite insights. Um >> when you had the ascendancy of the dark romance genre, um there was, as you've kind of alluded to there, a little bit of a push back. Well, this is a a very sort of barbaric base um uh perspective of female sexuality. It seems to pedestalize the man in a way. It has a lot of elements of dominance that we don't like. Uh, and in a time where time's up and me too and all that stuff was coming about, uh, there was a sense that this needed to be sanitized a little bit. So, they came out with, have you heard of golden retriever husbands or or cinnamon roll husbands? Okay, so >> the reason I know this, >> but I I shall write this down because I don't want to forget it. >> Well, thankfully we're recording it. So, um, >> cinnon roll husbands, uh, golden retriever husbands. I spent I spent every summer from the age of 20 six to about 32 traveling to America because I was a cover model for dark romance books, >> right? Oh, right. Oh, you were the guy who was on those book. Okay, that makes sense. >> I'm on I'm on quite a few. And what was fascinating, what what they would do is they would fly out the male models and imagine a freshest fair or any kind of any kind of um convention. What you want what you want is people to come to your stall. What's a great way if you're an author of Dark Romance to get people to come to the stall, put the model that's on the cover and you can get a photo and he'll sign your book and the author will sign your book and you sell more books, right? And the bigger authors realized that if they flew the models out that they would sell so many more books that it compensated for my flight plus, you know, cash to pay me to eat over whatever it was. Yeah, it was very fun. >> Um, but what I noticed was some of the books, some of the stands had these guys that were very non-dominant, not heavy brow, not built, not high, you know, not V-shaped, the all of the cues typically not brooding. And uh Katherine brought this up on the episode and she said this was an attempt. >> This was an attempt you you can see where I'm gonna go here. Uh this was an attempt to try and sanitize the overly patriarchal, worryingly dominant uh uh world >> that we had and unfortunately >> didn't sell. Didn't sell. >> That being said, that being said, I mean, balance it out. The the man that you fantasize about is not the man that you want to get into a relationship with. And in the same way as guys might watch a part and this is for men when we're talking about visual stuff with men like this a really big effect right if it if it's if men want to say no to a woman who's attractive in in a kind of a way men will happily watch porn of a woman that they would probably not marry. Oh, sure. Yes. >> Right. So, you go, "Oh my god." Like, there's a a hot woman that you want to have sex with that you wouldn't marry. Like, that's a you know what, what an insane. So, you go, okay, well, even in men, we can see this effect. But in women, absolutely. Because what is it that you're looking for? Like, are you wanting this guy who's got all of this attention? And I think that this, you know, going back to the male groupies for women as opposed to female groupies for men, the main concern that you have as a guy is cookoldry. And if you've got this orbiting pool >> of a bunch of other men, that makes that partner less desirable because you think, well, [ __ ] how much additional energy am I going to have to expend with my mate guarding and my jealousy and my intraexual and interexual compet all this [ __ ] Go. Okay. >> Sure. And there's there's a big sort of short-term long-term mating split as well. I mean, the people that we might consider in general, I think men would lower their standards for one night stands. Women tend to raise their standards for one night stands. that kind of stuff. Um um and >> oh that's that's a perfect that's a way quicker way of saying what I just said. That's perfect. >> But but but and there's there's very good reasons why that would be the case. You know, and I think we if we're actually going to be a bit, you know, if we're going to sort of learn, I mean, as a species, as a culture, if we're going to learn from this and sort of move forward and sort of, you know, we one of the things I talk about in the book is is aloof and intimate societies. And um aloof societies are ones where the sexes just don't get on. They don't talk to each other. They live in separate villages. They can live in separate parts of the same villages. Parts of the same village. Sometimes they have different languages. And there are quite a lot of cultures that are like this. And they still have to come together and have sex. And the women quite quite often the anthropologist call these female gardening ecologies which is sort of code for the women do all the real work and the men pre and make magnificent spears and fly into magnificent rages and have jewels with each other all the time. And you there are cultures that are that are like that. And to some extent the English public school system modeled itself to a bit, you know, on things like Rome and Sparta and places like that. Um the the the trouble with places like that is, you know, the men in it are very exciting, but they're they're just they're not you they're not doing the housework. Um and they're um you probably wouldn't want them around the house. They're they're not they're not properly domesticated. But that doesn't mean we can't pretend. You know, if if if women find those kinds of guys sexy, well, you know, we are we are we are very much a species that can pretend to do things. And this is one of the things that those those movies I was describing and the books I was describing get into. You know, they they get into roleplay. They get into pretending. And uh if you you read women's fantasies, they have a lot of that stuff going on. It doesn't need it doesn't need to be that. What's it Dan Savage, the the sex advice columnist, he calls a lot of BDSM. He says it's kind of like cops and robbers but with your pants off. I think it's which is sort of Yeah. >> So, I've been fascinated by this narrative, this sort of meta uh for the last few weeks. I've only recently seen it being commented on. So, it's a commentary on when outside of sex just for a second here. The notebook, The Notebook's a really great example of this. It's a commentary on the romanticization of the kind of hopeless thug in a way. The kind of noble noble thug you might be able to say. So the the notebook's a [ __ ] great example of this because you have a guy who is kind of good as a handyman but can't really hold down a job and is passionate but kind of loose and he is victorious up against a decorated war hero who is a successful business person and really slick and equally attractive or whatever and the same meta I wonder what this is feeding into because as we've said before If female desire can be mediated by other females desire, you have to assume that female desire can be mediated by culture as well. What are the archetypes that we think are part of our did you was your sexual awakening a bad boy or was your sexual awakening a pop a clean pop star or whatever that has to color the way that you look >> and just just being famous. Yeah. I mean I Colin Fur came to the school where I taught not long before I left and one of my students showed him around the school uh cuz he was thinking of sending his kid there. Um, and she was one of the sixth former, so she'd be about 17 or 18. Uh, and she came back to the class and she was appalled at the behavior. And then this is the this was the funny bit. She was appalled at the behavior of the female staff who were following him around the school, spying on him, and just behaving like just I mean, it was now I mean, he's a good-looking fella. Um, but, you know, it's mainly because he's famous, you know, he's he's been presented to them as uh who who was Mr. Darcy, wasn't it? I think he was at the time. You know, he's a good-looking chap, but he's not he's not the best looking chap. He's not the only good-looking chap, but the fact that he was sort of the object of desire in certain films just meant that and I think he was just he was just you bored with it by that stage. >> Yeah. Okay. So, getting back to sex, um just do a recap for me of what the predictors are. It was good smell so immuno compatibility. >> Yeah. >> Uh it was dominance. >> It was dominance penet and and also >> vigor. >> Yeah. Um yeah, we we we went there. Yeah. Um and uh um and also considerate. So >> give me give me we're not go we're not moving on beyond penetrative vigor, I'm afraid. What's what's that? >> Well um okay. So um humans have got the largest penises of any primates and um let's go >> sound like I'm boasting. I um but yeah we're bigger than gorilla. Well gorillas compete with their this well to your to your listeners. I'm sure gorillas compete with their big 400 lb bodies, but they got tiny testicles and tiny penises. Um, chimps are are somewhat stronger and they're less sexually dimorphic, but their their penises aren't as large. Bonobos are as long as ours, but they're not as thick. Um, but also chimps and bonobos are highly promiscuous and so their testicles are huge because they're producing a lot of sperm sperm genetic spermagenetic material. Um, with humans, one of the things we seem to be competing with is penis size because we are larger than the other primates. And uh, there are some supposed explanations of this based on the head size in the womb. I go into some detail in the book why I think that's unlikely to be the case. Uh just just just a linger there. Is there a suggestion or a theory that human penises need to be bigger because baby's heads need to be bigger because which means that women's vaginas need to be sufficiently sized which means that the penis is playing catch-up to the baby head because if it didn't female uh pleasure wouldn't be able to be reached. >> Yeah. Yeah. That is that that's that's kind of roughly the idea. I I go into some detail in the book >> that all of our that uh our penises were in an arms race against our own babies. >> Yeah. I I don't I don't buy the story. I I say I go into some detail in the book with with um sort of comparative uh sizes with um primate heads and and penises. I sort of try and show why why I don't think that's true. But um one one of the big clinches is we don't have a bulum. Uh so other animals often they have a penile bone which keeps it stiff. Uh and we don't. Um, so there's all this talk of sort of female orgasm being sort of inefficient and there's this idea, well that that shows as a byproduct, but of course male, you know, male penises aren't always that efficient. That's that's why we have a a thriving trade in Viagra and uh and all the rest of it. Um because it it it takes a certain amount of uh of health and vitality to produce the kind of penis that will um please the uh the partner. Yeah. In that way, does it mean that male erections are a fitness signal identifying? >> I think I think so. I we haven't studied this directly, but um yeah, the indirect evidence seems to be seems to be there. Plus, also, you know, if you ask women, they say it is, you know, it's one of those things where we get get kind of koi about it, like like you just did with with breast size. Um, I mean there there are these these these big signalers that we carry around on our bodies that if you ask the opposite if heterosexual actually no homosexual and heterosexual members of the opposite sex, you know, do you do you care about these things? Yeah, of course we do. You know, of course, of course we notice them and of course we care about them. >> What is the what is there any data around length versus girth? Is that something that's >> girth? We asked we asked women about girth and girth was was the thing that they they prized the most. That seems to be generally true that it is seems to be thickness rather than length. Um yeah, and that that that would make sense because uh if if we come back to my clitoris here um where the penis >> you keep getting confused, Robert, it's a Pokemon. You keep getting confused by the >> but it's the it's the girth that's sort of is producing sort of tension here uh around the the gland uh the glands of the clitoris. Um and uh this these these are regions that themselves become engorged with blood uh when the woman's aroused. I think that's that that is one of the one one of the things that causes a lot of confusion with this is that that you know women do need to be more aroused than men do often and that arousal is quite often internal. Um but you know um attention spent there is unlikely to be wasted. Um you know and women take take longer to to to get to that point than than men do frequently. >> Why is it very easy for some women to orgasm even multiple times? It's hard for others and they need a combination of increasingly elaborate stimulation to get there and it's impossible as well for a final group. >> Yeah. >> Right. We I mean the the the the simple honest answer is is we don't know. Um and I wouldn't want to suggest that my book is is is a clinical work. So, you know, there could be things that are clinically up with people. There could be drug interactions. There could be hormonal interactions. Um, all of that aside, um, it's it it part of the things that confuse it is that is for a variety of reasons women will have sex when they're not aroused. You know, they could be, uh, and I don't just talk I'm not just talking about sort of the obvious grizzly cases of coercion. It's just a sort of, oh, let's just get on with it, you know, and I'm not really into it. Um, kind of kind of situation, which I'm sure happens all the time. Also, I think a lot of the time people uh can only have sex if they're on some kind of drug, including alcohol. That that doesn't help. Uh and they're koi about uh telling their partners what they want. I mean, one of the ways that you run interference on on people, you know, with if you're if if you're if you're a dominant female baboon, you you go around sort of whacking the other female baboons on the back of the head and that raises their cortisol levels and that that makes it less like Yes. Yeah. Well, this is one of the arguments for concealed female ovulation in humans, right? that it doesn't allow other women to [ __ ] with you when you're ovulating. >> Well, and we we're we're we're better than baboons because we do it by just going around and telling people how they're allowed to orgasm. I mean, there is there is genuinely no culture where um which is neutral about female orgasm. Now, and and this is where it get it gets interesting and I I think I've got I've got some speculative suggestions, but I and some patterns, but there are some cultures that that celebrate female orgasm. to the point um there are those um those temples of Kataka I think they are where they've actually got representations on the walls over a thousand years old of how to generate orgasm in everybody you know in every possible permutation um through uh to cultures where they chop off bits of the clitoris in order to andulate people in order to try and prevent them having an orgasm at all and there's everything in between and some of the things that are in between are things like uh use of guilt uh use of misinformation and all kinds of other stuff like that which are are basically just running sexual interference on each other. That's that's what those mechanisms that's what those those behaviors are in I mean you just described some great examples with venting. Um but also you know telling people uh that they have to lie back and think of England is actually a sexual interference strategy for example. >> Yeah. Yeah. That if you don't enjoy sex that much you're not going to be looking for elsewhere which means that my partner who's supposed to be loyal to me isn't going to be taken away by you because you don't actually enjoy sex that Okay. Yeah. I look I I'm I'm sort of pretty fascinated by the range of physiological blessing and curse that I guess women have got when it comes to their ability to orgasm. Look, I >> I have a nonzero sample of partners across my life. And aside from a kind of slow linear increase in experience, >> Mhm. >> I've been the same person. So you say that we can't do random control trials, but at least I'm a pretty good control because I've been the same person. >> You are you are a longitudinal study. Yeah. >> Of myself. Yeah. Exactly. Um, and unless I've had wild variation in how much women are attracted to me, which I'm sure that I have, but unless it's been like really really high, there are there is a a barbell spectrum from one end which is very easy over and over to another end which is we could be here for days and it's it's not going to happen. And um I think you know the conversation around female orgasm in culture is really interesting because it's almost always laid at laid at the feet of the man's job to understand the woman's body better. And I think that this is a it's like noble in a way. You like women are sensitive about their bodies and don't make them more [ __ ] sensitive. Um, >> yeah, >> I haven't seen the same thing. So, if if a woman didn't reach orgasm, a lot of the time it would be, well, why didn't you ask your partner to do this and why the foreplay wasn't there and you maybe maybe attraction isn't there and so on and so forth. Very rarely is the finger sort of pointed toward, well, you know, maybe you're physiologically just unfortunate in this sort of a way or whatever. But if the reverse happens, if you have I think kind of the only real equivalent that we have as men is not being able to get it up. Um, and but if that happens, I never see a headline that's like men not erect, women to blame. It's like men not erect, men to blame, women not orgasming, also men to blame. So I do think >> I do think this female sexual selection works. I mean I mean Yeah, it's it is our fault. Yeah. No, we we're right to feel judged. I mean, we are being we're being judged. Yeah. >> At all times. >> Your your your your performance anxiety is is is um well well well founded. Not not just yours. I mean all of ours, you know. Um uh I I mean I I I count myself lucky that um I was cuter when I was younger. Uh and and older women sort of explain things to me. Um and and I pay attention in class. Uh >> I see. I see. >> Like the man giants. Well, I suppose what one of I suppose one of the things I mean being less facitious. I mean we certainly discovered a pattern that women become more orgasmic as they get older. And I think one of the reasons there's a bunch of reasons for that. One is that they they know the kind of men they like. Also they know the kind of activities they like. And also I think they they they become aware of of how uh their potential coiners could be exploited by other people saying well you shouldn't do that. You're not allowed to do this and you know this would be a bit dirty if you did that and all the rest of it. And they just and they they reject all of that. They go no screw all that stuff. you know, I I know what I want and I'm going to be more demanding and I also and also announce to my male partner that perhaps I'm not as fragile as some people might alert to believe. You know, all these kinds of things. >> Yeah. Well, I wonder whether uh fears of signaling ficundity uh become less salient as you get older, right? It's like who we who are we kidding? I'm 47. >> You know what I mean? Like [ __ ] like menopausal, you know? like we're not this isn't the first time. So I wonder if that's part of it. Certainly uh confidence in the bedroom, being able to take charge in that sort of a way. Have you seen any data around hormonal birth control impacting orgasm rate, ability, sensation, speed? >> Yeah, I'm I'm I I have and I'm I'm I'm actually just I'm just reading up about that at the moment. Um I I can't remember the book I'm reading. Um, but there is it's it might be your brain on the pill. >> It's your brain. This is your brain on birth control by Sarah Hill. Yeah. >> It was listening to someone on your show maybe think I I like to go and study this in more detail. We did we we've we've certainly uh interviewing people. We certainly found that hormonal birth control affects who they find attractive. Uh we haven't actually studied whether it has an effect on their orgasms. I I will have to confess I would be very surprised if it doesn't and I think it's a real gap in the data because I think um it it it almost has to change. >> That would be a that would be like a headline grabbing study if you did that. I really think it would because if you were to find out that this thing which stops you from getting pregnant also stops you from enjoying sex as much. Like how many how many girls go on birth control in before they've had sex for the first time? Um you know 15, 16, whatever and then go through their entire adult life, their entire sexual career up until the point at which they decide to have kids. if they decide to do that and they just have this assumption about the way that their sort of sexual mechanics work and they don't realize that there was this hormonal like >> this this massive experiment we've we've done on on a huge amount of the population without without a huge without an awful lot of control on it. And it and it's particularly ironic because frequently when we're doing experiments on on on the species, we we we leave the women out. Um >> exclusively being done on the women >> only women. Yeah. Uh I I mean actually it's not even just on our species. The number of experiments where people think, oh, you know, we've studied the brains of rats and it turns out actually we've studied the brains of male rats exclusively. >> Yeah. Okay. What do you make or what do you make of the orgasm gap then? Like what how does this come to to to sort of settle? >> Um oh well, I mean it's it's it's definitely there because once once a man gets erect, he's he's he's very likely to orgasm um through penetrative sex. Although I mean it's not it's not certain by any manner of means but he's very much more likely to. Whereas um uh if if a if a woman gets aroused then um there needs to be there need there needs to there probably needs to be more than just penetration in order to to create an orgasm in her. So there there will probably need to be other things and those things just might be lacking. um you know whether they're a bit of external stimulation uh a bit of additional stimulation uh to other areas um or or or just highly vigorous penetration which you know a lot of guys aren't providing cuz it's it's it's actually a you know it's a physical demand. >> I I saw a study recently that said women typically believe their marriages have about the right frequency of sex. >> Okay, >> whereas men wished for more twice as much as they were having. This suggests that many couples adjust their sexual frequency to the lower rate of desire by the wife, >> right? I wouldn't be surprised if that was true. I mean, the with with the usual provisors that, you know, there there are exceptions to this. Um, you would you would you would expect there to be a certain amount of it's just fun and it's pair bonding and and all the rest of it because that's that's going on. Have you have you come across the con concept of lesbian bed death? >> No, but I love the name. Um, and I've just I've just forgotten uh Peppa Schwarz uh is is a sociologist who coined the term and and what and what and and um what what she said was after a certain amount of time sort of lesbians just stop having having sex. Um and I I and I think you could it's more likely to be uh the case with heterosexual couples that it's the man who's being the instigator just because of things like testosterone levels. you know, he's just the when you got a a lesbian couple, then the chances are that you don't have somebody with the kind of levels of testosterone or either one person in, you know, there won't even be one person in the relationship who is always doing the pushing. There could be, but it's quite possible that you wouldn't, but there wouldn't be. >> I have to assume that if we go to the other end of the barbell and we have gay relationships, manto man, that it's surprising they get anything done. >> I think that's often the case. Yeah. and and you you don't you if you get a new sort of new gay couple that you know you quite often you don't see them for weeks or possibly months. Um mind you I mean one one of the other difference of course is that men have a a different refraction period. So they they will just kind of you know they will just kind of wear out after a while. >> Yeah. What what's the have you look why is it that women can orgasm multiple times within a single session of sex? >> We don't know. Um but uh it's but it would be great. It would be great to know. I I suspect it's because um the in the early stages they're getting very demanding because what's happening is they're getting a hold of a guy. They're signaling to him I'm going to have your baby. Basically that's he's he's getting massive signals of invest heavily in this person. They're orgasming a lot. As long as as long as he's up he's up to the mark. You have as much sex with her as possible and just make sure that she's pregnant. And once once that's once that's over with then you you you need some kind of adjustments to happen, don't you? Um, you don't want him to be continually pestering you for sex. You don't want him to be running off. So, women have got a tough job to do. They've got to get this guy. They've got to make him very excited, make him have lots of sex, and then sort of right, we'll slow him down at that point and go, "Well, you know, now do some other things." >> Wow. Okay. Well, what can we learn then about female orgasm from casual sex compared with coupled sex compared with longterm coupled sex? because it seems Yeah. >> Well, I the uh the the mo most of the data are that the casual sex is less likely to produce uh orgasm in females. Um >> why? >> Well, I I I think it's it's it's simply because one of the things you're doing is you're you're you're learning what that partner wants and you're learning what pleases them. Um however, if if it does produce an orgasm, I've got a I've got a feeling, and now this this is this is speculative on my part, but I've got a feeling it's the kind of thing that underwrites You've had Dave Debus on the show, haven't you? Talking about the monkey branching. Um I I I because I mean initially all a lot of his research was on the idea of of sort of um uh um sort of sperm harvesting behind the scenes and and I know he sort of he's moved away from that. I I think that still happens. I think even if it only happens 1% of the time that's plenty u to drive adaptations >> when you talk about sperm harvesting. >> Oh that you have a primary partner who is the the investor and you're sort of the lady chatly strategy. So you've got the sort of the the the investing partner and you've got the the the the sperm uh supplying partner behind the scenes who's who's clandestine. >> Does that suggest then have you seen any data that women who are having extrammarital affairs are more likely to orgasm with their extrammarital partner than their marital partner? >> Um I think it there I think the chances are that they're they're less likely to orgasm. But if they if they are if they're more likely to orgasm then they're quite more then they're more likely to mate switch. I think is is >> that's a a lead indicator that the lagging indicator of the relationship being over is going to happen soon. >> I mean, I've got I've got someone who now understands me, you know, I can I can move on. Um, so I think I think that can happen, but I also I mean I think um uh I don't want to speak for for uh for Dave Bus here. Um I think I think his is but I'm I'm going to but I I mean subject to his his approval. um quite a lot of the women will fall in love with the person that they're they're um sort of uh they're seeing behind the scenes, which would be a bad strategy if you're just trying to get genes from him and you're trying to keep your primary investment. So although although the the the sperm harvesting thing does seem to be a strategy, it's probably not the primary one. The primary one is is probably just to go from one partner to the next and use use sex as a test bed of who who is the the the one that you who's the one who's actually going to um you know have your babies with you and invest in you because you want >> I mean It really just is female selection all the way down. E it's just >> Yeah. Have you um do you know there's an evolutionary biologist called Olivia Judson. Okay. >> And um she was kind of mentor of mine in the early days. She she taught me a lot of evolutionary biology and she's she's written a book which I recommend to everyone. It was called Dr. Tatiana's sex advice to the whole of creation. And in it she adopts this persona of a um she's like an agony aunt. And um the the the letters will be sort of you know dear Dr. Tatiana, um, I can't have sex unless my husband's head has been ripped off and I've eaten it. Is this normal Mrs. Praying Mantis? And then the sort of the response is all sort of you why why you've evolved like this and why, you know, why it's good evolutionary biology. And it's witty and it's and it's well informed. Um, but one of the things that she says, well, there's a couple of things that she says. One is that the battle of the sexes is eternal, insoluble, and inevitable. So, you know, we need to sort of accept it and and sort of try and live with it and and also move on. Um and and the crucial point, one of the crucial points she she she um instilled from a from an early age uh was that female choice is the is the key driver in all primates. U and that and that we are no exception to that. Um and it was it was that it was really that that you know um that made made me look at female orgasm in that way. Um because it it's it's supposed uh inefficiencies um the orgasm gap uh and all the rest of it are really just they're signifiers that that women are being picky. Uh they're not being koi. They're just uh they're extremely picky and that's reflected in all of their behaviors. I think well one of the problems we've got with social media is because because female sexual selection is is inherently quite a comparative one. We've just widened the the potential comparative base to a point where I think you might be receiving a signal that the number of potential partners is in the thousands or the tens of thousands and so actually making a choice between them becomes computationally just intractable at this point. I wonder if I wonder if female orgasm rates have gone down. >> It's an interesting question. I don't know. Um >> because there's more or you have this perspective that there are more available mates out there. That means that any individual mate is less likely to meet your bar, which means that this, you know, fitness test, this Navy Seal hell week that you're putting that you're putting >> I mean, so sex can be fun as well. I I I I'm I'm sure >> exclusively competitive and and and conflict and deceptive according to you. So >> it's it's the bit where you go into the chamber and they throw the gas in. That's perhaps too much. >> Yes. Too much happening. Um okay. How would you characterize modern sexual culture then? We've got well we've just got we've got shows like Love Island happening at the moment which is kind of taken America by storm despite me trying to flee away from it over here. Um, we have, you know, like even in an interesting conversation around are men kind of allowed to say what they want in the bedroom without it seeming um, patriarchal or demanding or uh, like it's subjugating their partner in some sort of a way. Uh women have got this you know they've got their vestigages of the past which I think Cosmopolitan and those sort of magazines have done a a pretty good job at dispensing you know five new positions to try with him this Easter and [ __ ] like that like we've normalized the conversation around female sex in a way actually this is another another uh point >> I think that women believe that guys sit around and talk about sex like like sex >> apart from just the two of us you mean >> yeah yeah which we've done for an hour and a half. Um, but I think that they believe that guys sit around >> and talk about their sex lives. I have an update. Guys don't sit around and talk about their sex lives in that sort of a way. If if I was to say, "All right, mate. What's the sex like between you and the misses?" You go, "What do you [ __ ] fancy her?" or something. Why do you want to know about the sex between me and my misses? Whereas >> I don't know how frequent it is, but I would bet a big [ __ ] chunk of change that it is way more. >> Oh, yeah. >> Definitely is. >> Yeah. Um and um Yes. I remember when the when that that the the Trump grabbing women by the [ __ ] thing came out and there was this sort of always locker room talk. Locker room talk. I remember thinking I've been in quite a lot of locker rooms over the years. I have never heard that kind of talk. Maybe I'm going into the wrong locker rooms or maybe I'm just not the kind of guy people say those things to. But no, I would agree with you. I mean, there are guys who boast like that, but they they just tend to be seen as being boastful. And >> never around short-term mating. It's never around long-term mating as well. >> Right. No, I think that's that and I don't I don't think that's changed. Um I think I think it's because um it's partly because women have this incredibly difficult job to do. We were just talking about this sort of one of the patterns is that um they find um sexual dominance in the bedroom very erotic. Not all women, but many women do. I mean, enough enough to fuel um you know, Fifty Shades of Gray multi-billion pound industry. Um and yet the trouble is if you if you say that if you say that openly, then you you remove one of your primary mechanisms for for being able to distinguish between the kind of person who you want to be dominant in the bedroom and the kind of person you wouldn't want within a million miles of you. Um who might then sort of go, well, she know she gave me the green light to to behave like this. And so that's a that's a very diff difficult it's like the kind of signaling problem that gay men used to have before homosexuality was legal that you know you want you wanted you wanted you wanted people to know you were gay. However the wrong people might suddenly know that you were gay and you could find yourself in a lot of trouble you know either legal or or you know or violent. But I I I don't think that problem ever goes completely away for women because there are always men out there who are potentially willing to exploit that. So the you have to be on guard for that kind of thing. Um, I mean, as for as for the sort of the sexual culture, I've heard some people of my age say, um, you know, it feels like I've got the last helicopter out of Saigon, which may be a bit bit much, but I I'm glad I'm not a young person dating because, uh, it I mean, I'm I'm around a lot of young people because I I was a school teacher and now I'm a university teacher and I see young people dating and they don't seem happy. They don't seem as happy as I was when I was their age. Um, they they it seems to be really fraught. it seems to be really tense. Um, and that isn't just sort of me being an old guy sort of, you know, waving his fist at the clouds because, you know, they're not getting married, they're not having kids. Um, there is a demographic collapse. Uh, unfortunately, discussion of that has now become left right coded. God help us. Which means that sensible discussion of it is going to be increasingly hard. I I have eaten a metric ton of [ __ ] because I can't talk about birth rate decline without being accused of shilling for Ben Ben Shapiro or something like that. >> Yeah, I know. Yeah. Um I mean, but well, every time Ben Ben opens his mouth about female orgasm, he he he puts something >> in that. Yeah, he's not he's he wasn't exactly fantastic in that on that subject, but I look I I was thinking about this uh earlier on today. One of the most painful situations that you can be in as somebody that sort of thinks about the world is to be right but early. >> Right. But early. >> Oh my god. the unrequited, the bitterness, the resentment, the sense of do you not remember when I said that you just needed to listen to me? And I >> I'm I'm [ __ ] adamant that birth rate decline is going to be one of those right but early things. Everybody that's talking about it is right and everybody that's pushing back against them is just disincentivizing a really important conversation to be had. Can this be weaponized and pointed in a direction that's real nefarious? Yes. can >> I think we proved to ourselves there is nothing that can't be weaponized uh politically. I I genuinely think there is nothing and we just have to set that aside. Um I'm afraid >> this is a this is an interesting stat that I've got for you here. Porn featuring violence against women is also extremely popular among women. It is far more popular among women than men. I hate saying that because misogynists seem to love this fact. Fantasy life isn't always politically correct. The rate at which women watch violent porn is roughly the same in every part of the world. It isn't even correlated with how women are treated. >> Mhm. That sounds like something Jermaine Greer said. Um and it got it got her into a lot of trouble. But I can top that. I can I can get people to hate me even when they hate you. Um um so you know I mean we haven't really even talked about the another big strand of our research here which is into spree killers. So I started studying spree killers uh a few years back and I got really interested in in the different types of spree killer and and and now we've become I've got a PhD student. We've become interested in in whether uh because the these are almost always men go out and they kill strangers publicly and they seem to fall into two types and which wasn't really known when we first started this. There's a there's an older type who tends to be a family controller and he tends to kill family members um and he has very little in common with the younger type who tends to be the school shooter um and tends to have a history of uh mental illness, school refusal and and they the one is not an older version of the other. Here's the bit that's that that was really disturbing when a student come of mine came along and said well have we have we have we tried studying the people who fetishize them and so we did a study on hibistoiles and these are exclusively women who fetishize killers and we found once again we found two types there we found the ones who didn't really distinguish between just the the the the good-looking bad boys and there wasn't really much difference in the fan material they produced whether it was say One Direction or or whether it was a spree killer but there was a small number um uh a a persistent number and I I I'm not a forensic psychologist but I used to be a forensic psychologist sort of living next door to me in the department. Sometimes I knocked on his door and said, "Is this interesting?" You know, "Is this is this known?" He went, "No, you should publish this. This is this is really interesting." Because the the subtype um fetishized the killing and they're very open about it. And they they go along to the courts and they produce um erotic material that is extremely violent. Um focuses uh on the uh the pain and misery of the of the victims. Um and and openly says, you know, they they they desire the the people that do it and to join in. >> Look at [ __ ] Luigi Manion. Yes, I know. >> Sex symbol overnight. People like the the shoes he had on was sold out. >> Yes, >> you guys are style icon. >> We're we're we have a dark we have a dark element to our our character as a species. And and I think um a lot of years of um looking at for example the you know the way that women have been victimized in society and at no point am I suggesting that any of that is remotely false uh has sort of blinded people to the fact that you know women are women hold up half the sky. Yeah. but they also produce half the [ __ ] And we we are we are a sexually reproducing species. We're a mutually sexually reproducing species. And you know, we need to stop having sex with the psychopaths. All of us. >> Okay. Right. Well, good luck. Good luck interjecting there. Um, I mean this is again such an interesting area to think about when it comes to the relational like c where where culture meets desire and the story that we tell ourselves because as soon as you say women can't be deceptive during sex. Women can't women can't be coercive during sex. They can't be manipulative. They can't steal partners from others. They can't monkey branch. They can't use they can't keep their male friends. all the male friends they've got, the orbiters, interestingly, they all seem to be around about the same similar level of attractiveness to the man that they're with. Um, they all of this stuff. It's like, no, no, no. Women don't do any of that stuff. Or they do do it, but they don't do it at that much of a level. It's right. Okay. So, you're telling me that women are completely passive sexual objects, who have no agency over their future, and all that they do is blow with the wind with whatever man comes in front of them first. >> Yes. >> Evidently not. Evidently not. So, square this square this circle for me, dude. like square the circle. >> Sorry. You are you asked me to defend that position? >> No, not at all. Like the imaginary my imaginary sort of blank slate female agent sexual agency denying. >> But what you're what you're saying is itself a strategy. I mean what one of what one of the best ways of manipulating men is to it's and and other and other other women in the environment is is to pretend that you are a koi passive recipient of male order. I mean that that's one of the things that fooled the Victorian bi male biologists is that they and it fooled Darwin up to a point. I mean he could see the sexual selection was happening but it can't be happening to me surely you know and it bugged him because >> Charles I would never I can never do that to you. >> Yeah. No absolutely I I can never be on the receiving end of it. No, of course. I mean that um you know heterosexual men we are fooled a lot of the time and facing up to that is tough for us and also I mean it makes it sound like it makes it sound like women are are sort of um sort of you know sort of conspiring behind the scenes and some of them are of course but quite a lot of them aren't even aware that they're doing those things uh which is you know which is why it it's why it's good that that I mean all of that is changing people like Katherine for example you know we just talked about her you know she she's she comes along she's unequivocal she's she's she's smart she uh she's uncomfortable [Laughter] um she's she's not not not ashamed of the way she looks and um yeah and she's willing to do the science and you know it's but 40 years ago there weren't there wasn't a body of people like that doing behavioral science and now now there is and you know I think I think that's almost certainly you know um hope for um improvement isn't it >> unbelievable Dr. Robert thing, ladies and gentlemen. Robert, you're great. Where should people go? They're going to want to check out the book and everything else that you do. >> Oh, uh, it's very kind. I I don't have a social media presence. I I I kind of got rid of my social media presence because it just felt I wasn't the the the net the net worth wasn't there. Um, I should probably set myself up a YouTube channel for things like this to be on. Um, I've got the book. Um, it's called Naturally Selective. Um, and um, I've got my uh academia.edu edu and all those kind of sites where I put all my um papers and all the rest of it. That's it really. I I I should perhaps be more media savvy about these kinds of things. But >> the book is a uh a really great deep work. So if what we get from you is books and what we lose from you as Instagram posts. I think that that's a good trade. >> Well, I I I've seen I've seen colleagues and friends, not not necessarily ones here at UC, but I have seen people who were more eminent than me suddenly go down the Twitter route and suddenly are pining about things. I'm sort of going, I know you. Why are you talking about this? You >> the work also takes a nose dive, a concurrent nose dive with that a lot. >> So, why are you talking about this? Well, and I say, well, you're getting all these Twitter likes for it and it's highly it's clearly highly addictive. And you know, we we were the kind of nerdy types at school who weren't particularly the pretty ones or the popular ones. And I think getting a bit of that popular I'm just I'm talking about scientists, not you. Um because you're clearly both. But um but we were the you know the the the the colleagues I'm thinking about the kind of people who needed a bit of popularity and once they get it it's it's um they can't they can't stop themselves. It's like a drug to them >> and I don't think it's good for them. >> Wow. Okay dude, you're great. Thank you so um I really really enjoyed this one until >> all the interesting questions. >> I got you. Thank you man. >> Congratulations. You made it to the end of the episode. And if you want more, well, why don't you press right here? Come on.