Why do we feel guilty about setting boundaries in our partner’s fantasies

Hi everyone. Welcome back to our podcast The Helpline. I'm Simran, and I have with me as always Dr. Amrita Madan Behl. And today we have a very interesting question. So, it's not a new question, but I love how it's an old question about fantasies, boundaries, deciding what you can or don't feel happy doing, but with so much more nuance. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> So, I'm going to read out the question first. It says it's from a young woman, and she [clears throat] says, "I wanted to ask something from very vulnerable and honest place. My partner and I have a deeply loving relationship in every way, including a very fulfilling sex life, as well as being very open about our desires and fantasies. He has always expressed curiosity about trying anal. We did try it once. I didn't really enjoy it. But I did once also ask him whether he would ever try it with someone else, like would he want to? And he mentioned a friend who is gay and who I have met, with whom he had casually discussed it before, and he said that if he ever did try it, he wouldn't mind trying it with him. Now, she says, "He was very clear that he's not emotionally attracted to this other guy. He does not identify as gay. He is attracted to women. He is in love with me, but was simply curious about the physical experience itself. Initially I agreed because I wanted to be open-minded and not restrictive, but [clears throat] then after thinking about it, quite honestly, I realized that emotionally I would not be okay with it happening, even if it was a one-time experience and meant nothing to him. I feel that something inside me would feel emotionally affected afterwards." >> Mhm. >> So, uh she goes and tells him all this, and he said immediately that I'm more important than the experience, and if I'm not okay with it, then he won't do it. No pressure at all. But now I feel guilty. So, here are all her questions. Part of me wonders whether I'm stopping someone I love from exploring a harmless curiosity just because of my own emotional discomfort. At the same time, another part of me feels that emotional safety and personal boundaries are also important. Can someone be deeply fulfilled, satisfied, and in love within a relationship and yet still feel curious about certain sexual experiences outside of it? Very common misconception. Fourth question, how do we know the difference between being emotionally honest about our boundaries versus becoming restrictive out of fear of past pain? And finally, how do we stop feeling guilty when someone lovingly chooses you and your relationship over an experience that they were curious about? >> I can't tell you these such good questions. And more importantly, this is the work we do in therapy, right? Like and and and she's framed it so beautifully. Like great questions. Where should we start? Like we said there are five questions. >> So let's start from where she says I feel guilty. Part of me wonders whether I'm stopping someone I love from exploring a harmless curiosity just because of my emotional discomfort. At the same time, another part feels isn't there your emotional safety and boundaries are important as well. >> So interestingly, what I feel about that is I was just working with a couple and I was I I was trying to get them to feel comfortable with their baggage that they come with. And and I want to change the word baggage. So let's say be comfortable with their past or who they are and their quirks and their differences and everything. And what I want to say is that in every relationship, there is nobody who's perfect or who's angel or who is like, you know, like just a super human who's going to be okay with everyone. We all have our areas of discomfort. Or what I said is that we all have our bruises from past. We might have had a bad experience. We might have had, you know, someone might have done something wrong to us. So we all come with bruises, and those bruises make us very protective. And we don't want our partners to go somewhere. But what is really important to remember is there is no relationship in which one partner has bruises and the other doesn't. Life gives us bruises. So each partner comes with them. And And so it's And they're just different. So it's okay for us to feel like I'm not comfortable with that. It will be different for different partners. Like somebody might say, "I'm not okay that my partner goes for dinner outside alone without me. They should If I'm not going, they shouldn't go." Somebody else might say, "I think it's okay if my partner's going for a holiday with the opposite sex person. I trust them completely." So it's about where we have been resourced, where we haven't been bruised, where we feel reassured. It's It has got to do with our stuff. But what we need to realize is that it's interdependence. Just the way we come with certain bruises, our partner comes with others. And that's the partnership. We We land up not doing certain things because they make our partner uncomfortable, and it might be irrational, but the same is expected of them with our bruises, you know. >> Yeah. And it's interesting because also, as we've discovered in the past, each time somebody says, "Oh, but they have this fantasy which is about somebody else and you've said in the past that having a fantasy doesn't mean that you're dissatisfied in the relationship a fantasy is a whole different thing right so you know so in no way are we judging her partner I love the relationship where they can speak about their fantasies their choices I love the fact that the partner is willing to give it a try and then say actually I didn't like it I love the fact that the partner listened to that no and didn't like push the agenda it was like okay we tried it you didn't like it the other person's like well maybe you want to try it okay who would you try it with so there wasn't like you know we've done this question I feel like a gazillion times I had a gay fantasy I had sex with the same you know sex person am I gay I'm lesbian my partner said they were interested in something are they gay are they lesbian like we do this question all the time so the question don't put labels our spectrum is massive or their fantasies where we're all on a continuum we have bisexual thoughts ideas you know same sex thoughts ideas fantasies wishes desires like it's all normal so I feel like the dilemma is age-old but how they've handled it is really new in some ways they've been really open they've like explored it and what I then feel is a classic and I'm going to say it's a classic gender issue as women we set boundaries and then feel guilty for that and yeah and then feel like oh my God how could I have a boundary and then come into the sacrificial mode of saying oh how can I take away somebody else's pleasure for my boundary? I must feel guilty about it. I must let them do it." And I don't know what to I don't know how to change it for women. Because if we switch tables and there was a man and he said, "I don't feel comfortable with this." and they set a boundary, they would not be writing letters to Seema saying, "I'm questioning my boundary setting." It's something about us or we've been socialized to be >> Yeah, it's how we've been socialized. It's how we've been conditioned. Saying a no, particularly to your partner, has always been seen as the bad woman syndrome. You you're not supposed to say no. You know, you're supposed to say no to everybody but you're never supposed to say no to your partner. It's just a whole bunch of mess. >> I feel like women and and I did this. There is a lot of research actually done in South Asian mental health and otherwise or South Asian gender studies and everything. That somewhere at least South Asian women are raised to believe that they will they need to be people who sacrifice and that's a virtue to have. And a virtuous woman is the one that sacrifices her needs, her wants, her, you know, desires for the sake of and I'm not saying partner and I'm not saying sexual, but for anything for the sake of the family, right? That classic movie scene where there is half a roti but she won't keep it for herself and give it to the family is seen as the most virtuous thing. And I'm not saying that's not a virtue. I I'm not denying it. But what I'm saying >> need to be glorified. >> Exactly. And that's the message we keep getting is that it's virtuous to sacrifice your needs for others and for your family. >> That's the good woman. >> And that's the good woman. But the problem is we put boundary setting in that. Even when our family's comfortable with the boundaries we are setting. And still it's the guilt because of the socialization. >> I think I just want to finish that letter by saying, repeating what you just said that you know, because they talk about curiosity, right? So she's saying he's curious about trying anal. He's curious about certain things. Then wants to know later about whether could you still be curious about things even though you're in such a loving relationship. So yeah, the fact that you're curious, you want to try something and being satisfied or dissatisfied are two very different things. It's not the same thing. >> Well, as in in some ways I feel like you're alive sexually if you're considering other options, you're thinking of sex, it's not all like missionary, let's just go in there and get it over with, right? So in some ways obviously they're in their partnership are sexually active, they're thinking about sex, they're thinking about how else they like sex, how else they feel pleasure and everything. So there's a lot positive here. And so being curious about how else I would feel pleasure or to fantasize, we have said is a good thing. It's just being open to your sex and sexuality. And but just because they have a fantasy, it doesn't always have to be satiated, you know? Just the way there's so many things we choose in our life and that we would want to do but we don't do for the sake of a job, a partner, your children or otherwise. And similarly, it's okay for a fantasy to not be satiated for the sake of a partner. So it's a good thing he has a fantasy. It's a good thing he shared the fantasy. And it's amazing that he respected his partner's wishes and said that actually if you're not interested and if it makes you uncomfortable that I try it somewhere else, I won't. I I actually think it worked out really well. >> I do. And you know, coming back to the idea of the fact that we set boundaries and then we feel guilty about setting boundaries. I just want to say whether we say it out loud or not, your boundaries that you set for yourself are what make you feel safe. >> Mhm. >> That's what makes you feel good. And at the end of the day, that is the basis of your relationship. A truly good, comfortable, mutually trusting, happy relationship depends on how safe and comfortable you feel with the other person. And that directly translates to your boundaries being respected. >> And so, let's take your idea forward, right? Like so, let's look at this situation if she did not set her boundary, right? She had a boundary, she shared it and said, "I don't think I'll be comfortable." The partner respected it. If she had decided to say >> Okay, that's Yeah. >> "No, okay, if you want to." But inside, she is like hating the idea. Then see, how does it impact your relationship? Because now you're constantly wondering what your husband has experienced. Has he liked it? Did he like it? Did he dislike it? Did he like it more than the sex that you have had? Is he going to explore more options outside? Is he interested more in that? Is he angry with me because I said no, now he's finding it somewhere else? You are entering a minefield. But if you set a boundary and say, "No, actually I'm not comfortable with this." And your partner's okay with it, then actually you have saved your relationship and you have made it safer. You created a boundary and now it has less impact on your relationship. And we never see the flip side. We always stay in guilt. >> Absolutely. So, I'm going to go to her next question. It says that can someone, I think we just touched on this, but can someone be deeply fulfilled, satisfied, and in love within a relationship, yet still feel curious about certain sexual experiences outside it? >> Yeah, so I think we spoke about it. I think as an example >> you can have sexual uh fantasies, curiosity, all sorts of things, and it has nothing to do with how close you feel to each other. >> And I think the image always when somebody's thinking about sex, I don't know why we created the image that they're always thinking of sex with somebody else. People thinking about sex doesn't It could be with their partners. It could be within their relationships. It could be within their marriage. Just because people think about sex doesn't mean they're thinking about with people outside of them. >> you're literally just thinking of it as an experience rather than with a specific person. Unless you're specifically fantasizing about someone. >> But even that, we have always said that we fantasize or we uh you know, we get arousal from the library we have of experiences, of images, of you know, uh ideas that we have seen or uh imagined or experienced. So, if that's our library and that's coming, we can't suddenly erase our memories, right? So, if that's a fantasy from before, maybe they've seen a visual before, or maybe they've had an experience before. Either way, that's in their bank and it's okay. >> It is okay. It is absolutely okay. It does not mean that they're being unfaithful to you, disloyal to you. And it doesn't mean that they're bad people just because there's a fantasy that seems out of the box. It has nothing to do with somebody's morality. >> And I'm sure Seema can vouch to that. People Everybody's thinking it, nobody's saying it. So, I I can like I can't like vouch in a betting idea with numbers or something like that, but pretty much I would say majority of the people have like a fantasy that people would consider not in the okay realm, but they're just not sharing it. >> I think I remember you saying that you attended a workshop on fantasies where people shared some of their stuff and some of it was really, really out of the box. >> Yeah, I mean that was my first class. I actually when I That was my first when I was doing my psychosexual thing and in my head I was like I'd gone thinking, I hope they don't make you talk about sex. And this is me who now I'm doing a podcast on sex. I've come a long way as well. Despite talking about sex for years, like I just want to say that it's not the easiest thing to talk about. And I literally sat there and I said, "Of course they will not get us to speak." You know, they shared a form and literally within 10 seconds they were like, "In small groups, you will share." And and part of it was like, "Talk about your fantasies, talk about your desires, talk about your best previous experience, the worst previous experience" and things like that. And but I guess that's what gets you to be comfortable to talk about sex, right? >> I know. I was just thinking. I remember being at a at a gathering and again somebody sat up and they they shared some very interesting experiences that they had and then they said, "Okay, Simmer, your turn." And I just literally went >> [laughter] >> I couldn't actually I was like oh um >> Like you said, we've come a long way. >> Yeah, but and and I do feel like I've come a long way because I remember when I used to do the comprehensive sexuality education program and we always have to do a session with the parents before and we used to go and always say we understand how difficult today is and how it is and we've chosen it as a profession, but we you know we also never go in a living room situation and just start talking about sex. I feel like that answer would be very different now because I feel like so many of my conversations in the living room with people always turn to something to do with sex. Like It has changed. It has changed. So her next question, which is also I think really interesting, she says how do we know the difference between being emotionally honest about our boundaries versus becoming restrictive out of fear or past pain? And I know that you've already spoken about it, but let's sort of put it down comprehensively in a little answer because I think this this idea that I'm setting a boundary to be unfair to somebody or am I setting a boundary to be true to myself? Is there such a thing? >> I think you know, sometimes boundaries are based on our maybe our principles, our wants, our desires or based or being protected towards us. Because there have been experiences of pain in the past that we want to protect ourselves from that pain again, right? And that's why we set that boundary because we feel like this is going to be deja vu. Um and and yes, many times, if we're unable to heal from our past trauma or our past pain, we can >> And I want to just say that healing from a past trauma, healing from past pain is not even a very conscious thing. Sometimes you think you're past it, but deep down it might still be there. >> So, I would say actually most of the time it's in the subconscious. So, till we actively don't heal from it or we actively don't, you know, process that trauma, it we don't even know that it's creating a block. You know, it it it just happens unco- unconsciously. You're like, uh there's like something in my stomach doesn't feel right or like it makes me uncomfortable. And And you're not connecting the dots at all. You're just reacting. You're just responding in many ways because you want to protect yourself. Like if that situation feels like it's going to take you to a place which was very painful. And you're just saying, I can see signs of it. So, it's not even It's like, oh I see a tunnel. I've been in a tunnel before and it was really dark. I see a tunnel coming. Let's just find another way. Like I'm not even going to go towards the tunnel. This tunnel might be short. This tunnel might have lights. This tunnel might not be even dark. But as soon as we see a tunnel, we think this is going to be really dark. I'm not going there. So, that's what I mean by like it's getting comfortable. So, a lot of time it is being protective towards yourself. But be empathetic. There is pain there. You're not just in It's not like for no rhyme or reason you're coming up with this. There is pain there, so be empathetic to yourself. But yes, if your pain is not healed, it can impact future your future or your future relationships. >> And in a very simple way, I think that even if you feel you're being restricted, even if you're setting a boundary because okay, I don't like it. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're doing it to be mean to the other person. You're not trying to stop them from something. There is something making you feel like that. >> Like we started, there's a bruise that you have. And if you feel that if you don't set this boundary, the bruise will get like they it'll get rubbed again. Like, you know, so you feel like they'll be rubbing and you're saying, "I don't I can't take that pain." And that's okay, you're protecting yourself. But if you keep saying no to things because you feel keep feeling scared that the wounds are going to get rubbed or the bruises are going to get rubbed, then there might be a lot that you might not engage with. And this might be related to your partner or not. It might be things you don't engage in because you're scared. So, healing is required. But like I said in the beginning, a lot of times boundary setting might be because of the pain of the past, but it could also be that you might have certain principles in life. You might have >> And they're totally valid. >> Yeah, and and it might be that you've decided that's how you want from a relationship and that's the principle you want to follow or those are the do's and don'ts of a relationship that you want. So, those could be also. And and you have every right to have your own boundaries just as your partner has every right to have their boundaries. >> And finally, and this is really interesting. I think again we touched on this in the beginning. How do we stop feeling guilty when someone lovingly chooses you and your relationship over an experience that they were curious about? So, they wanted to try that but they said, "Okay, you don't like it. I won't do it." Everything's fine and now you're drowning in the guilt. >> I I I feel like it is My friends and I were talking about this the other day. Despite being dynamic, strong, confident women, I don't know what happens. We just are not okay to like receive the love, receive the respect, receive the, you know, I care that I'll choose you over something else. We want to always, you know, I I I remember it was COVID. I was ill and I had like I think lost a lot of hair or something like that. And we had to go for a holiday and I knew that everybody needed a holiday and needed a thing. But I was very conscious. Like I didn't want to be with strangers at that time. Close friends were fine. Family was okay, but I didn't want to be with strangers. And I kept crying and saying and everybody was like, "We'll do what you want to do. We'll go for just a family vacation or we'll just go with really close friends." And I kept crying and saying, "But I know you want to go for a holiday. Everybody wants to go for a holiday. There are more friends that children have in that group, but everybody wants to go, but I'm saying no." And they were like, "It's not the last holiday we're going for. Like what's the big deal?" And I was like and I and I knew I wasn't comfortable, But I still and they were fine. Just like it wasn't like and they would have been fine even if we said no holiday. And anyway then another whatever block happened with the holidays so nobody went on any holiday. But I remember sitting in the evening and like they were like we don't even know what you're crying about because we are okay not going on a holiday or going on a holiday as a family. But I was like but I know everybody wants to go with them and they were just like Yeah. So I don't know what it is. >> They have this thing about your own self-worth. Is that what it is? >> [sighs] >> I do what as in I I I think it's just that socializing that conditioning that we were talking about because yeah, the moment you say no and it's listened to very happily, lovingly. It does make you think God, I'm so horrible for saying no. Rather than saying thank you. That is amazing. Thank you for listening to me. It makes me feel good. >> Yeah. Or or just being like comfortable with making a choice that felt right for you. And my son sometimes gives me these life lessons a lot and he turns around and says, "Mama, it's okay to be selfish at times." Like I you know. And and I think that's the thing. This idea of the word selfish is such a dirty word for us. Like I think as I I don't know. Maybe >> As women as Asian women or women from certain parts of the world. Yeah, that word selfish is the problem. >> Yeah. Like and he was like it's like I don't want to do that and I want to do this. Like it feels more fun for me. And I was like, "Oh, but how can you not think about your friends? How can you not think about family? How can you like For me it was like how can you not think about others?" And he was like, "But that's what I want to do. Like, I'm thinking about myself. And And And so, I think we get really caught, and that could be another podcast. But, I do think we really It's a It's a beautiful thing that we are so family and community-focused as a community. Like, I'm not saying >> They're very giving and loving, and that's great, but >> But, in that, I don't know why we have lost the art of teaching that it's okay to say no, and it's okay to keep your needs in the mix as well. >> Literally, before we started this, Anvita had come back from another meeting, and she said to me, "I don't want to do that, but it's so hard to say no." >> [laughter] >> I've only just learned to say, "No, I don't think I can. Thank you." But, my god, it it kills me to say no. >> Yeah. I think somewhere we need to in that collectivistic culture, we need to somewhere value that saying no is sometimes better for the collective. Because, you have to understand, we still feel annoyed with it. We just say no because we think that's the right way to do things. But, then we feel annoyed, then we feel frustrated, then we get angry with people around us. And And it's passive-aggressive. So, it it would just be better. But, I also think what is interesting is we're so fascinated by women who have learned it. >> Yeah. >> And they Women who have learned it and do it, they fascinate me so much. Yeah. >> Yeah, you can see the power in them. >> Yeah. It is un >> You no longer have to raise your voice, you no longer have to anything. You're just comfortable in saying, "No, I'm sorry, I can't do that." It's It's such a skill. >> Yeah, and it's And And also, that they're very they have clarity, you know, within themselves and to say like this is not going to work or this is not going to And I just So, yeah, more power to those women. And once again, like I I know sometimes we all lot of times get backlash that we're saying this and so I really want to say one is not questioning being part of the collectivistic culture. One is not questioning being giving. I'm the most giving person ever. One is not saying, but there's something about valuing your own needs. And that it is okay to value your own needs. You're also a person in that puzzle, you know? And if you're going to be dissatisfied, it is going to impact the other parts as well. And just the way you'd wish that other people in that collective, their needs are taken care of, your needs are as valuable. >> I guess the ultimate example is always in an aircraft when they talk about the oxygen mask coming down. If you don't have that on yourself, you are not going to be able to do very much for the others. So, you first and then look after everybody with the energy that you have. >> Yeah, and and you first once again does not It means that you're a bad person or you're a bad person. All it means is that you're listening to yourself. Um and I actually And and I and I do think this is really valuable because we really need to teach our daughters that setting boundaries, thinking about themselves is not a bad thing. >> And we need to teach our sons that it's okay when the woman in your life sets a boundary. >> Yeah. >> Right? Yeah. >> Yeah, and and and and that like it is that And I think what happens is we emulate so much of what we've seen in our households and our mothers and our grandmothers and everything that we emulate that to be virtuous and so many of our daughters do it again and and I just and then so many times that I've seen our like my friend's daughters and all when they do create a boundary or they do have a voice or they do stand up, they're always saying, "Oh, but she's so alpha, right? Like she's she's such an A-type personality and you know, who would want a relationship with her?" And all of that. And I'd just be like, "Just because she has a voice and just because like yesterday we were at a friend's place and I was dying, but she like so we had to leave and my son was like, "No, no, I can hang out with them." And so we said, "Okay, bye." And she looked at him and she goes, "You're staying." And he goes, "I can leave if you want me to leave." She goes, "Yeah, I'm seeing you tomorrow and I'll see you a lot in the coming 3 months, so" He's like, "Yeah, fine. I'll leave. It's okay." In my head I was dying. Like I was like, "I would have stayed up. I would have said, 'No, no, stay. How rude.'" And I don't think my son minded and she like it was just so it was so wholesome and normal between them. And she just said, "I'm going to see you tomorrow and I'm going to see a lot of you. I want to go to bed." And he took it as she's just saying she wants to go to bed, so I'll go. She wasn't offended by it. In my head I was like, "How is she saying it?" And I was offended for my son. It was just so stupid. Like I really think it was stupid. >> No, well, I think lesson lessons are learned every day and I think that it takes time for us to uncondition, unlearn, and relearn. >> And that's what we were talking about, remember? That we now see a lot of the younger generations they just know like it's okay. They're just happy just saying no, and that's amazing in that. >> Yeah. >> So, um I think that at the end of it, I'd like to say that, you know, boundaries are actually an extremely good thing. Please don't feel scared about setting boundaries. Stop feeling worried that it's the wrong thing to do. If that's how a relationship, uh curiosity works for you, that's how it works for you. There is no two ways about it. And pushing your own boundaries out and trying to include something that's going to make you feel really miserable is not going to help the relationship. >> And then I was thinking exactly that, because I feel like, specially in the honeymoon period, um both genders, like male and female, in the same sex or opposite, we always feel, because we're in the honeymoon period, we keep wanting to accommodate the other person, right? And we're like, if somebody gets angry, we're like, "Oh, don't get angry. Like it's not It's It's okay." Or something. Like we disregard it, we ignore it, whatever. And I actually feel it should be the reverse. In the honeymoon period, the more comfortable you you are with setting boundaries, it sets the stage. It sets the foundation for your relationship. The stronger the boundary setting at the beginning, the healthier and the more robust the relationship are. Because in many ways, when you're in the honeymoon period and you keep accommodating, then after the five times you've not reacted to somebody getting angry, then the sixth time you're like, "This is not okay." You've never set the boundary the five times before. So, now it's kind of like established that they can scream and it's okay, right? So, if from the like within the first, second, third time, and you can say it nicely, it doesn't need to be a fight. You can just say nicely saying, "I know you're frustrated. You know I'm I know you're angry, but I don't like you screaming at me, and it will be a problem the next time you do it. So, please, can you find another way to express this?" And then, there will be no screaming in the relationship in the future. But, we never do it at the we >> We never do it in the beginning because you're trying to be all nicey-nicey and accommodating. But, um yeah, when it comes to actually fantasies and boundary setting, there is, of course, a chapter on that in the book. So, if you're looking for understanding techniques or tips on how to actually do it or even understand why you're reacting to take the way, um go to the chapter, read it up. Really useful. In the meantime, if you found that it was a useful podcast for you, as always, please do like, comment, subscribe, and we look forward to hearing from you with your other questions. You can reach Amrita if you are looking for therapy. Uh you can reach Amrita on >> Uh my website is cultureandtherapy.co.uk. >> And there's a form on there. >> Yeah, there's a contact form, or you can email me at amrita.madan@gmail.com. But, I Sometimes, the spellings can be tricky of that. So, just cultureandtherapy.co.uk. >> And, of course, if you have a question that you'd like to send in, I am on info.seema.anand@gmail.com. We look forward to hearing from you. Stay safe till we meet again. >> [music] [music]