Why Comedies Suck Now - Judd Apatow (4K)

You said your parents' divorce bought your house and cars. >> That's true. >> How so? >> It's funny. So, when I first started doing standup, I remember writing in a notebook, and this was years actually years before I ever got on stage, you some joke about how Richard Prior's like grandmother ran a brothel. Like, he grew up in a brothel. And all I had to work with to be a comedian was my parents getting divorced. Like it wasn't enough to be a genius. It was just enough damage to get you in the game that I wished my grandmother ran a brothel and then maybe I would be more messed up. >> You wanted more trauma. >> I needed more trauma. But it was enough. It certainly was enough. But back then when people got divorced in in the early 80s, uh people just, you know, fought. They like really like fought it. People weren't aware that you should uh keep it away from the kids. >> Oh, it was all out in the open. >> Yeah. Too much involvement. Too much [laughter] >> trench warfare and you were in the middle of it. >> Exactly. Too much of us knowing what was going on. And I we had really thin walls. I remember I would hear them arguing. So, I knew they were going to get divorced way before they told me. >> It was a protracted dispute. >> Yeah. And the funny part was they sat us all down. And I remember like sitting me and my my my brother and sister down like on the brick next to the fireplace and telling us they were getting divorced. And then 6 months later they got back together and then a year and a half later they sat us down again. >> Oh my god. >> So I had the double the double >> they got divorced twice. >> Uh yeah. I mean they broke up and then they finally finally did. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. a false start and then a small whatever uh treaty between the two and then and then back again. Uh >> certainly a lot of the comedian friends that I see are working with and actually this is the same for music as well. Um >> discomfort and pain seems to be a real creative catalyst. >> Yeah. >> Uh some people turn it into trying to earn money and make a business. Some people turn it into trying to make people laugh. Some people turn it into beautiful chords and lyrics that make people cry. Or >> is it a prerequisite to be a funny comed? Is it difficult to be a funny comedian without a ton of trauma? >> There was a really funny conversation that Gary Shanling had about this with Jerry Seinfeld and they were talking about, you know, do you need pain to be funny? And Jerry Seinfeld says,"Well, what about talent? What about just talent?" And Gary went, "Why are you so angry?" [laughter] >> But it it is true that you you know when you go through something, it just makes you more sensitive and I think you just pay attention in a different way to the world and you don't feel safe >> and you're looking to understand why the world is the way it is. So I think it makes you an observer in a lot of ways because you feel like, wait, this isn't working out the way I wanted it to. Why? >> Oh, that's so good. I think you're really right there. I think the the hypervigilance that people usually try and deprogram once they've gotten a little bit of success. If they look back at where the success came from, it was the level of obsession and observation and detail that they were looking at stuff with. They couldn't not. And that's why they saw in that one interaction between an air hostess s Stewart s and a passenger something that went on to be a really funny bit oract uh in their breakup they tried to work out why did this happen? I didn't feel safe. I was dissatisfied with the world. I don't want it to happen again. I'll obsess and think and ruminate and reflect. Oh, out of this is born a beautiful lyric or a harmony or whatever. And that is my song that you know breaks through. Yeah. >> So yeah, I I I see exactly the I've never I've always realized that pain is the genesis of creativity, but I've never worked out the mechanism. And I think that's a big part of it. That's that's cool. >> Well, definitely. I thought I I need to figure out how to survive in the world. What am I going to do? So it made me more obsessed with the one interest I had, comedy, and trying to figure out, well, how do you get a job? How do you get in? And so I had way too much energy as a really little kid to figure out both the creative side and the business side. You know, how does a how does an open mic night work? How do you get hired to write a screenplay? How do you become a director or an actor? And >> but that was safety. Like because I thought I don't know if I can trust the people around me to take care of me >> and so I'm going to have to take care of myself. And that was probably a big exaggeration, but as a little kid it felt very visceral. Yeah. I mean that I have this belief that most of the things that you're super proud of are the light side of something dark that you're ashamed of. And there uh agency, hyperindependence, executive function, the ability to do it permissionlessly, >> all great. Then when it comes to relinquishing control, delegating to other people, trusting those around you, opening up with intimacy, you go, "Oh no, the thing that I got a lot of uh props for and has made me real successful is the very thing which is now limiting me in my relationship or my business growth or my ability to collaborate with others. So funny how that sort of comes full circle a little bit." >> Well, you get rewarded for your worst qualities. [laughter] So, so if you you know you're obsessive or you're a workaholic, it does work for you, >> but it doesn't work for your life >> for a while. >> Yeah. And it doesn't work for your family. And so then it becomes like, well, how emotional am I getting about the work? Can I calm that down? Do I have to get so worked up? I remember I, you know, sometimes I would just be just ranting and raving about some creative fight I was happening because my biggest fear is always someone being able to ruin the TV show or the movie that there there's a someone who has the power to mess it up. That's because for there's safety in doing a good job also. And so that would be my irrational thing that would project on all of it. And I would come home kind of flipping out and uh Lesie would would always say, "Melt down on the set." And meltdown on on the set meant that I was like getting crazy and overreacting and being too emotional about the problem. And and that helped me to tune into like what am I doing? And I realized I was just projecting all of my abandonment issues and parental issues and divorce issues onto relationships with executives. And so when I didn't get my way or I didn't feel understood, I felt abandoned in a primal way >> that I had to realize, oh, this has nothing to do with this debate we're having about this joke. >> Yep. >> But it was intense and it in a lot of ways it didn't make me do good work. It made me work really hard. But you know, when you have kids, you have to learn how to shut that off before you walk in the door so you can be 100% present with them. >> Yeah. and you're not still running. How are we going to get this deal done or this creative fix done? >> Also, I imagine that you learn with kids. I don't have as much control over them as I do in other areas of my life. I think this is maybe one of the challenges that people who are uh self-powered, hard charging or relatively independent have, which is well, I get to determine my life in this area. And then you have this child >> which has its own consciousness and motivations and wants to wake up at 3:00 in the morning 4 months in a row and you go hey no usually when this happens I can tell a person to stop doing that thing and they do it and if they keep doing it they get fired or I can leave and move somewhere else I can do whatever you go oh this I don't have the same kind of control in this world. I remember not sleeping for a year. Uh, you know, my daughter would the sec I I I would rock her for like an hour and I I I I would just pray she was in a deep sleep and the second her BODY TOUCHED THE CRIB AND THEN I'D [laughter] HAVE TO like do another half hour. And I think that's why I had a herniated disc cuz I was just holding this weight hunched over for a year. And then when she finally started sleeping, I remember my brain fog clearing and going, "Oh, wow. I've been in another dimension for a year. >> I'm alive again." >> My exhaustion, you know, you know, when they talk about if you don't sleep for well for a night or two, it's the equivalent of just being drunk. >> Yep. Yep. >> And that's what it felt like drunk for a year and then the drinking on top wouldn't have helped. >> Exactly. >> Um Yeah. That obsession hypervigilance piece I think is is really really interesting for people who are working out where their success comes from and then what their definition of success is. Certainly when you say I was worried about somebody um ruining it, breaking it, spoiling the the production or the film or the the scene or whatever. Um I imagine that part of that is my work needs to be good or is amazing needs to be fantastic because if it's good the world will accept me and no one will abandon me. >> So you have in the like outcome of the work this that needs to be right and then at each different process along the way like fear of abandonment because it's not good enough and fear of abandonment at each different step in the production too. >> Yeah. Yeah. On each decision even. And I remember I had a friend who I always said, "Wow, he just takes this so seriously and it's like life or death." Like he'll die if this doesn't come out how he wanted to. And it took me a long time to realize that maybe not to that extent, but that's what I'm doing, but it's just 15% less that the person I'm judging for doing it. >> Right. Okay. you were the uh you ever so slightly in the shadow of somebody who is even more hypervigilant, even more obsessive than you. >> Well, because in the beginning I would write for people like Gary Chandling and and you know they they were obsessive and that was a lot of their brilliance and I would I would think, okay, don't be that intense because they seem like they're not having as much fun as they should. Yep. >> That there's a lot of pain in this. And so I've always tried to modulate it. Yep. But as I get older, I realize I didn't succeed as much as I thought I did. Like in my head, I was modulating like, "No, you were pretty bad." Like when I was putting the comedy nerd book together, I you know, I was writing about things that worked, things that failed, and why. And I could see my intensity as I collected all the photos and wrote all the essays. Like, well, you were a maniac. And I would think about some fight I had with an executive where I just, you know, really went too hard. But it was all, you know, in service of, you know, you know, what does it mean if this is really bad? Well, so maybe I won't work again or I'll get worse jobs or people will find out I don't know what I'm doing. >> You know, how can I be solid that in in a career that's not solid at all because every comedy is an experiment. So it's not like one working helps the next one ever. So, as soon as you start one, you're like, I think it'll be funny. And sometimes it is. And sometimes it's not, and you go, "Oh, I was wrong." >> You're [laughter] only as good as your current performance. Basically, >> there's no way to It's not like a consistent job. You can't be a It's not like a dentist where you're just a good dentist and you're just making good decisions. It's it's a roll of the dice of if people will like what you did and if it'll make any sense to anybody. >> Yeah. that the uh turbulence or the uh fickleness maybe of of comedy is something that I hadn't quite considered in the same way. I'm I'm pretty obsessed with the difference between music and every other performance medium. Because >> if you do even the best set of your entire life, the best hour of your entire life, someone will watch it and love it. Maybe they see it live or maybe they're watching it streaming somewhere >> and then maybe they'll watch it again like within a month, but they're not going to watch that again for 6 months or a year after that. If you find a new song, you can put that sucker on repeat for days >> and listen to nothing else >> and then still listen to it and still listen to it and still listen to it. I wonder whether that means that musicians ride the uh vicissitudes of what the next single sounds like or the next record sounds like better than somebody like a comedian because so few people are going back to watch your old stuff whereas people are still listening to [ __ ] Kanye, right? even after all of the fallout and the thing and it's like you know well [ __ ] Jesus walks is like bit of a slammer whatever. >> Um >> so you get a much longer tale of success off the back of something really great >> whereas with comedy it's there and oh it's fantastic but if the next one isn't good people aren't still being carried by the bit of work before. Does that make sense? Yeah, because uh you know I guess more in the modern era musicians are trying to build the great concert, right? So if you have those 10 good songs, some people could get away with five or three, >> you could sell out shows or do well >> for your for your whole life. I I had a a friend tell me once who's in a band that if they can get one song off of every album that the audience demands to hear, that's a big deal. But you're writing the the body of work and you're making money off of it and you're performing and you're touring off of it and you could play your biggest hit and the place will always go crazy. So it's like you've built this thing that grows. You're like Springsteen and like oh I I could do Born to Run. a lot of compounding. >> Yeah. Where in in in comedy, movies, and TV, you have zero. You just start over and you're like, "Well, I hope I hope you like this one." >> If you do a new hour or if your hour next year includes the three best jokes from last year and somebody went, they go, "That's lazy." You go, "Is anybody calling the killers lazy for playing Mr. Bright Side 50,000 times?" >> Well, that's a big question for standup comedy, which is, should you do specials? so often, you know, Jay Leno was always famous because he never did a special because he was of the belief and a lot of the comedians from the 60s uh were like this that you just developed this set for your whole life. It's just one set >> more like the Killers or or Fleetwood Mac. And so Don Rickles had basically the same set his entire life and there were tons of people and maybe it grew and maybe they as they got older there was more time that they could choose from but they they didn't put it on TV in a way that wiped it away where comedians people think as soon as it's an HBO special they're never going to do it live again. And I think there are some comedians and I'm among them who thinks I don't there's nothing wrong with doing 10 minutes out of the hour of your favorite stuff that you've ever done. And I think the crowd loves it, but you know, comedians feel like I have to turn the whole thing over. [snorts] >> Well, I think part of that is at least some of the uh mechanism of the joke is the uncertainty about what's going to come. >> Yeah. >> Whereas like the reason that you like Mr. Bright Side by the Killers is not that you don't know what the chorus is going to sound like. It's precisely because you do know what the chorus is going to sound like. In fact, in many ways, we prefer music that we do know >> the music that we don't know. >> The opposite is true for comedy. The opposite. I'm currently on tour. I'm playing the region this Saturday. [clears throat] >> And um I know once I've done this, I've done Australia with this. I've done the Apollo in London. I've done US and Canada. I I can't I people know the lessons. They know the stories. They've hopefully taken away the things that need to be there. The little bit of stand up I do at the start has, you know, ah isn't that good? So there is this sense of well you're looking for a new resource, a new well to draw from. Maybe it's insightful or interesting or makes you feel something, >> but it you're not going to that well has been dry from the first time. So okay, we now do need a new one. So yeah, maybe the like the physics of comedy are different to the physics of music in that way. But it is interesting. I I I'm intrigued by how having an outlet for the obsession and the hypervigilance, how you think about in retrospect what you could have done to have blended that with more fun, more enjoyment, more presence. >> Is that something you really have that much choice over? I ask myself this a lot. I wonder how much we can step into the outcomes versus enjoyment equation. Yeah, I'd say I mean I don't think you could speed up the lesson of it. I mean it really usually comes from mentors or reading or your observations to adjust yourself, but I think a lot of it is uh this intense youthful madness and passion where it makes no sense that you think you can make it. You know, the the the odds are so against you. But I remember when I when I lived with Adam Sandler, like we all were like, "Oh, Adam's the guy. He's gonna be the like what he is now." We all knew he would be. And I think he believed that that was what was coming. And and there were other people like that, like Jim Carrey, who felt like this is the the trip I'm about to be on. But there's a madness to that that I think everyone in all fields have. But it's mainly when you're in your 20s where you're willing to take those crazy risks. It's probably like in our genes to just be believers in oursel unless something happened that crushed our our confidence and that makes us act just more energetically and and ready to fight because it is like a fight orflight response. It's like a hunter gatherer energy which has nothing to do with comedy. It has nothing to do with art. It has nothing to do with storytelling. It's not helpful other than you have to deal with it because now that I'm older and that has all calmed down, uh, you know, I can be creative in a way that's not as stressful, but maybe it was good. I mean, I did a lot of stuff when I was out of my mind. >> Well, you've repurposed war, right? You know, you're a waring tribe and you don't know who it is that's on the other side, but we don't need to pick up a spear in 2025. we can go and build this comedy set or I'm really interested in what you said there. Um >> well, it's like well Michael Jordan needed to be angry at someone. >> Correct. That was what drove his performance. And that's part of it is that that there's an energy in the that you're you feel opposing forces whether it's I got to win over the crowd. I got to win over the people paying for this. >> But there's it it kind of gets your adrenaline >> connection with something up against as an adversary. Um so two things that you've said so far that I think are really interesting. One is um I was worried that people were going to find out I didn't know what I was doing. Right. So that's imposter syndrome, uncertainty, self-belief, self-esteem. But on the other side, this sort of irrational self-belief that some of the guys thought that they could make it. So, how do you come to think about this relationship between uh I'm going to try and do this thing that I have no certainty about whether or not it's going to work. This seems like a very irrational pursuit to try and go after. uh which would suggest self-belief and also the permanent ambient fear of people are going to find out I don't know what I'm doing d in your experience for you and the other guys that you came up with what how does that slot together rampant uncertainty and anxiety with sort of worldch changing self-belief >> well I think when you're young that uh the the madness self-belief part defeats the terrified of failure part. It's just more energy. There's just more gas. There's more gas in that tank. When I first started doing standup, I was just so terrible because you don't know how to do it. It it's it's uh the only profession that you have to learn how to do it in front of people. Like you have to do it to learn how to do it. It's like if you were a skier and you could you only could learn by going down the >> Sex is another one. >> Exactly. [laughter] Exactly. That's why people need to talk about sex a lot because it is about like the pressure of that. That's like the 40-year-old virgin. The pressure, you know, to jump into something that you don't know how to do. >> Practicing in public. I've called it for the podcast. Practicing in public. There is no practicing in private. There's only practicing in public. >> And you would bomb and you would you would have terrible nights. I I'm amazed that I kept going because it was brutal. But I had talked to so many comedians by that point and they just said that's part of it. So I thought I'm bombing but I'm in it. This is it. We're doing it. So I got kind of excited even after a bomb that I was entering the business. >> What does bombing is R&D mean? >> Bombing as R&D. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like is that do you see the opportunity to eat [ __ ] as research and development? >> Yeah. because every joke is uh something that you're adding to your act. So, you know, I have a a a set that I do and then I'll think of something. Maybe it's a line, maybe it's a a story and I'll try to do a new joke and if it works, then I put it on the it works pile. and every night you're doing things that work and then you you're trying to figure out if you have the the the courage to do the experimental part because it it kills your set sometimes. So say you're really funny for 10 minutes and then you think I'm going to go into that new story that just happened and then maybe it works, maybe you eat it and now you have to go back into your real set and win them back and hope they forget this little side path of trying to discover new material. Before we continue, you have probably heard experts like Dr. Ronda Patrick talk about the benefits of omega-3s. They support brain function. They reduce inflammation. They improve heart health and are backed by hundreds of studies. And it's really hard to get enough omega-3s naturally. 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So I mentioned I'm on tour at the moment and uh as a part of this I tried to earn my keep as best I could. So I did work in progress shows and we tested a bunch of a bunch of stuff. Uh there's a weird kind of liberation. And again, I'm like secondhand living through a bunch of friends that do this properly, like really really fantastic comedians. >> And I asked I was like, "Hey, I'm going to I'm going to roll the dice with a lot like 10 minutes of stuff that's never been said publicly uh at the start of an hour and a half. So if >> all of these go badly, >> I'm I'm going to spend an hour and 20 minutes like desperately trying to win people back around." what's the the mindset to sort of overcome that performance anxiety? Uh, and there was a few bits of advice, but the main one that at least stuck with me was given that they're work in progress shows, your goal is to kill as many babies as possible. Is that okay, that doesn't work and that doesn't work and that doesn't work and fantastic. Because it's better to do it now than to do it in front of 1500 people in a town hall in Manhattan. >> Yeah. >> Way better now. What would you say or what did you learn about dealing with the discomfort of little wobbles during a live performance. I imagine this expands out into a pitch. It expands out into whether you're singing in front of somebody, whether you're on a date and thing like what did you learn about the oh my god, here we go. And then [clears throat] and then bringing it back without being in too in your own head. Is was there a way that you learned to work through that fear compulsion? >> I think I still have it. I I I because my frontal lobe shuts down when I get nervous. There's some people get a kick out of not doing well. So they don't get nervous when it start when they start bombing because they they find it amusing on some level. Uh yeah, exactly. Like someone was saying uh I always forget if it was John Stewart or John Stewart quoting Nor McDonald that you have to lean into the bomb like you just you're you're not like resisting it. You're you're you're like when Nor McDonald would have a joke that didn't work on weekend update he would just slow down. [laughter] It's like Andy Calfman. You know, some people like they they get a kick out of the tension of it not working. And I think Nor McDonald said that his relationship was not with the audience. His relationship was with the joke. That he loved the joke so much that if you don't laugh, he doesn't care like, "Oh, they didn't laugh." But he's getting a kick out of the joke, right? >> Where when I'm on stage, I'm very aware if they're not laughing. I, you know, I I can get in that place, but I'd have to really focus because I'm I don't like when they when they don't laugh. I'm still sensitive to it. But it is a good idea to start with new things because then you can just leap out and get in the real thing. Uh but it is an art of how you weave new thoughts and and it does make sense to go I'm just going to start with it and then suddenly I'll bail. They won't know and then the thing will lift off. >> But it's really about if the audience thinks you're nervous because what happens is when you look nervous they lose faith in you. And the reason why you bomb is not because the jokes are bad. It's because they're just picking up this, you know, wideeyed tank bomb energy and they they see like you've lost your your step and they don't trust you anymore. >> And that happens with movies, too. You know, in a lot of movies, if if you have a lot of broad jokes in a row, if one bombs, usually the next few bomb, too, because the audience goes, "Wait, do they know what they're doing?" >> What's broad jokes? like a big like a big visual joke or a really silly joke and if it doesn't work and and the movie is just like hanging out there like and it just ate it, it kills the next five minutes sometimes. And I I've had it where you cut that joke out and suddenly the whole run murders because you lost that that stumble. >> That's interesting. And you feel like that's a similar dynamic in terms of like trust and momentum that you get when you're live too. >> Yeah. And also uh you know Gary Shan had journals when I did when I did the documentary about him. I read all his journals and he said you know they're not there to see a a joke like people go to see Elvis. They don't go to hear a song and so you have to be comfortable in your persona and your character. They're they're coming to just be a part of the whole vibe of it. It's not about necessarily about any specific joke. see if you can get into your thing that's funny about you and and be able to hang with it. My my failure at times is if I'm having a bad day and I go on stage and I just don't look like I want to be there, then the whole thing falls apart. >> Yeah. Again, it's a a challenge that you have in comedy. I I think about this a lot. Like everybody has bad days. You've just had an argument with the misses and uh you need to go out there and look like you want to be there. If you're, again, I don't mean to be [ __ ] on the Killers as the canonical example of somebody that just does the same thing over and over, but if you're the Killers and you play Mr. Bright Side, yeah, sure, maybe your dance moves are slightly less electric or whatever, but you hit the notes, you play the chords, you drum the beat, the Mr. Bright Side has appeared. Um, the same isn't true when it comes to comedy because so much of it is about yourself and the emotion and the pause and the eyes >> and uh, >> and people will walk out, you know, with comedy like people just leave. Yeah, >> you know, if if it really falls apart. >> Talking about the power dynamic between you and the audience and like that sense of trust. >> Jimmy Carr had this line where he said, "Most comedians are if you don't like me, I don't like me." And it's that sort of externalizing of the selfworth and in the desperation is the loss of trust, >> which I think is really interesting. >> Yeah. They see it and there are some people that they just never get thrown. They just >> Who's the most bulletproof or who are some of the most bulletproof guys that you've seen or girls? >> Uh, I mean, Bill Burr is I mean, he's so funny and he always has his energy and his focus. Uh, he never looks like he he isn't excited to be there and isn't very passionate about what he's doing. And so, he's not someone I mean, angry about what he's I mean, he might engage the crowd I if he feels like, you know, the crowd isn't getting something and it's their fault, you know, and he might have fun with what's happening, but he's always 100% focused. Uh, and I don't think he's worrying about it. Um, >> yeah, there's a lot of people like that who who just enjoy enjoy whatever it brings. >> Stuart Lee is like that in the UK, if you know who Steuart Lee is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He almost makes the audience an adversary >> and if they don't get it, >> he'll lean into that and say, "Well, it's your fault." Like, "I can't believe I he's done a lot of stuff that's really exposed sort of his process." And I've appreciated watching him. And um one of the methods that he uses is he finds a pocket of the audience and despite not knowing anything about them refers to them as sort of you know the real fans and they get it and then picks out another >> territory and says look can we not cuz they're before I didn't even need to finish and you can we can we have a little bit more of the energy and he's he's called it out as he realized there's some sort of social dynamic that goes on where the out group wants to be a part of the in-group. So they try even harder to do it. The in-group feels prestige. The out group feels this desperation to be a part of it. And now the I need to please you has turned into you need to please me and you need to be like them. And I was watching this interview with him. [laughter] I'm like this is [ __ ] wild. How cool. >> Yeah. I mean there are people who understand those dynamics. I never do. It's all just like I'm just leaping into the me. Yeah. But but I think all that stuff is true. And there's even things where like comedians, especially in the old days, they would do physical gestures to signal to laugh. And people didn't understand that's what was happening. And so it might be like Johnny Carson doing a golf swing or, you know, Bob Hope doing his thing, but they would do a move or they would turn their head and the audience didn't know it's a signal >> now. Yeah. >> Now is good to happen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you uh purposefully expose yourself to uncomfortable situations? Because again, if you've come in as the slightly nervous, slightly uncertain, hypervigilant, overoptimizer person, uh getting over the fear of performance anxiety and all the rest of it, >> uh asking the crowd to heckle you purposefully, almost leaning into exposure therapy. Is that a conscious strategy to try and sort of get past this? >> I don't think I knew what I was doing. I just knew I need to do it. I need to do it a lot. If I do it a lot, I'm going to figure it out. And a lot of people told me, it takes years and years to find yourself on stage. And so I just set a very slow clock to figure it out. And you know, I mean, I literally thought, I'm starting standup at 17. If it takes me seven years, I'll be really successful at 24 years [laughter] old. And so I didn't mind when I was 17 and 18 and 19 that I was like still figuring it out because I'm like all right we're getting there and I >> it's 24 you want to hit but not that I hit when I was 24 but >> but that made sense to me like this is like becoming a doctor. It's it's a it's a seven eight year thing. The idea of not being able to practice in private, I think is sort of the fundamental difference and why there is a lot of intrigue and sort of romanticization around uh standup as an art form because the same is not true of writing a song. Like every time that you try to get a lyric or a melody or a chord right or whatever, >> Yeah. >> there is not an audience in front of you scrutinizing all of the ways that you [ __ ] up. So it's less of a highwire act. So the process of developing the body of work is less compelling and less high risk and less socially judged in that way. Uh so yeah saying I had to set a long clock. If someone was to say uh I want to learn to play the guitar really well so I just set a really long clock. No one would be like all right like obviously you're trying to accumulate a skill. It's like saying you want to become good at tennis or learn Italian or something like Yeah. You just >> put the reps in and then it comes out. But because it's being scrutinized publicly, that changes the entire >> Yeah. And you have to make money also. So like you're not that good. You're trying to get paid. You don't want You're hoping you could not have a day job as soon as you can. I mean, I had day jobs for years and years and years. Uh and then I wrote jokes for other comedians, which most comedians wouldn't do, but I was like, I need the money. So, I would offer myself up to help people with their acts, >> even though my act wasn't that good. And and that's part of how I learned to write jokes was to be writing for people who were all better than me. >> And then I would figure out their voice and and I would, you know, try to imagine what I would want them to say. And so I learned how to do comedy by figuring out what is a Gary Shandling joke and and writing with him because then you wind up writing with people and you you just through osmosis learn how they approach >> their creativity. >> Yeah. I think lots of people in entertainment and comedy are concerned with like status and progress, right? I want to be recognized and admired by the people that I recognize and admire. and I want to feel like I'm getting better and I want to keep sort of climbing the ladder. >> I guess the problem is you're regularly going to go before a act who gets more applause and louder laughs or whatever. >> And this feels like a vicious pairing for most comedians because you've got hyper sensitivity to the status which is the thing that they're and progress which is the thing they're being most exposed to like literally within minutes. There was a Was it the Golden Globes or what was it you did with Adam and like you went on and you were like I'm crushing and then he comes out and you're like the volume just got 2xed like I wasn't crushing. >> That was Carnegie Hall. >> Carnegie Hall. >> Yeah. I I I you know I was doing Carnegie Hall uh for the New York Comedy Festival and I asked Adam if he wanted to do a surprise appearance and Adam hadn't done standup in a really long time like more than a a decade and he had just started doing it again and and he said okay yeah I'll come on. So I, you know, I did my whole set to perform for an hour and then I thought, "Oh, that went pretty well." Then Adam came out and the place lost their [laughter] minds. Like it was the biggest applause that you've ever heard in your life. And then he was so funny. We sang a song together. He sang the Chris Farley song for the first time in New York and it was a really special night. But I afterwards I'm like I think his laughs were twice as big as mine. And it was it was a great learning experience too of like what what where the where's the ceiling >> on this? >> Is that is it difficult to keep your ego in check when you're being friends with people whose career suddenly starts outpacing yours. >> Uh it's uh you know it makes you question if you're going to make it or will you make it to the level you want to make it. I mean that for me was a a a unique experience. I don't think a lot of people have where so many people in your social group are like the best of all time. It's like everybody is like Otani, you know, and you're like >> you got 10 Otani friends and you live with one of them. >> Like I'm a pitcher, too. [laughter] >> You I got my I got my knuckle ball and and and you could tell like this is the future of comedy here. And I would get depressed. I mean, I remember sitting home one night and getting drunk by myself just just like, you know, losing confidence uh and just trying to figure out, you know, what am I going to do here? Because I was young and I didn't really have much to say and I wasn't groundbreaking. I didn't have, you know, a new way to do standup. I wasn't that weird. I was just like a kind of like a young smart comic. And and I was aware of that and I was bummed out about that. You know, I wasn't Steven Wright. I wasn't Bob Goldwight. Like people were really taking chances and doing really cool interesting things. And what Adam was doing and what Jim was doing was just so weird and out there. Rob Schneider had this incredible act back when we first started and and they were very inventive and I could write for people and I could, you know, write for Jim and, you know, help him with with stuff and I got a lot of confidence from that. But it took a long time for me to find myself almost till you know freaks and geeks where I realized oh the more personal I am the better it is the the more interesting and creative and emotional it is but I didn't know how to do that for a very long time I think >> in other news you've probably heard me talk about element before and that is because I'm frankly dependent of it for the last as long as I can remember I've started every single day with one of these suckers in cold water. Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mixed with everything you need, nothing that you don't. Uh, each grab-and-go stick pack contains a science-backed electrolyte ratio. Sodium, potassium, and magnesium, including no coloring, no sugar, no artificial ingredients, or any other junk. Plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue, whilst optimizing brain health, regulating appetite, and curbing cravings. This lemonade flavor was so popular, a literally a truckload of it was stole. 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Maybe you were peers or maybe you were a mentor or you were in writer room together or whatever and then >> this person just is out in the stratosphere. >> Yeah. >> Um >> and you're also happy for them because they're your favorites and so you have a lot of mixed emotions about it, right? All of our dreams, we we all had that dream of being on Saturday Night Live or being a part of it. And then suddenly David Spade moved there and then [laughter] Rob Sher moved there and then Sandler moved there and Chris Rock was on there and you know you want to be part of the club. And for me I had to acknowledge that oh I'm not going to get in that way. And so I created a sketch show with Ben Stiller, the Ben Stiller Show around the same time which was a reaction to the fact that I couldn't get a job at Saturday Night Live. Even though I was helping Jim Carrey write sketches for Living Color, I couldn't get >> hired in Living Color. And so, you know, me and Ben, we created a show and suddenly we had a show on Fox and >> it was like, okay, I can't do that, but I can do I can do it here and and my path is just going to be a completely different path. And that's totally fine and kind of great in a way, but I also think, oh man, I missed out on so much fun. you know, I missed out on like being in the SNL offices and and having that that camaraderie and that family, >> but you got to do that yourself and bootstrap it permissionlessly with your crew, with your friends. >> Yeah. And then you wind up creating your own crew cuz now I realize that as a kid, part of the fantasy of it was >> the people from SCV or Montzy Python or Saturday Night Live, they were these little families and that was the thing you wanted to be a part of. like oh my god could you imagine if you were part of one of those and so in a way we you know in different time periods you know created our own >> that's an interesting part the fact that uh so much of creative work now can be done independently you know you can from your bedroom track a single with program drums you don't need a drum kit and you can have your vocals recorded and your instrument that you play and then just pay somebody to come in and do keys or bass or whatever the [ __ ] it is that you don't and go that's now on the internet that's on the internet and then you step up a little bit maybe you've got a producer or something else but largely it's a very solo enterprise the same thing goes for comedy you can Trevor Wallace if you know who Trevor is he was sat in the seat a couple of days ago huge huge huge comedian like 40 million play Tik Toks and 100 million play Tik Toks and him and his video guy and whoever he's starring with can go tomorrow and record the idea he had today so you've reduced down The amount of collaboration that's needed is what I'm saying. You don't need a big team with cam ops and a set and a union and [ __ ] [ __ ] Right? [snorts] >> In some ways that's very attractive and seductive because you think >> I don't need anyone. I can do this myself. I literally don't need anyone. And even if I do need some people, I don't need many. >> Yeah. Uh but the thing that you have gotten rid of is maybe actually the whole reason for doing it in the first place which was the fact that you get to hang with people. I've seen it with this show. You know when I I started this it was on my own after 15 episodes Dean editor joins. We're now a thousand episodes late. You'll be episode 130 or something like that. And um so much of it especially cuz a big ascendancy was around COVID and sort of the working from home revolution. Uh, so much of it's just been us solo degening our way through like caffeine and bedroom offices >> and you go, "Oh, it's cool that you can do it lean, but it's probably more fun if you actually do it as a group." And that realization might might sound kind of obvious, but it took me a little while to realize. Well, and it's also the heartbreak of show business, which is you make a movie, everyone gets close, and it's over. And then you make a TV show and maybe you do it for maybe make one, maybe you do it for a couple years, and then it's over. And so you're constantly having all your all your groups dissolve. And that that's its own kind of mental stress that I never thought about till years later. Like what is what is depressing about this is because you you know you you fall in love with everybody and you're having this creative experience and friendship experience and then everyone heads off in other directions and that's a weird thing to experience a lot in your life. >> Oh camaraderie speed dating. >> Yeah. [laughter] Exactly. Yeah. And that and that was a tough one for me and I didn't realize that that was what was happening. Uh that I was just trying to keep everyone together. >> Well, especially if you want connection which it sounds like you did. I want to be accepted and not abandoned. Hey, guess what? You're in an industry where you're going to be abandoned every 6 to 12 months. >> Mhm. >> Permanently. >> Yeah. And I And I, you know, I realized I only got in it for the connection cuz when I was a kid and I was into comedy, no one liked comedy. There wasn't another kid into it at the school. And so I dreamed that there would be a place where there would be people like me. And then there were people like me when I moved to Los Angeles. and and that I almost wanted to get in the business for that connection >> even more than the love of comedy was you know what what is the language I can speak with with my tribe >> and but all that is unconscious then years later like when you're depressed about something you're like why is this so intense you don't know that's that's what like 30 years of therapy [laughter] help you figure out like what what is the root of all these emotions that come up around this process Yes. >> M I've heard you say anything goes as long as it's funny, wise, and true. >> Mhm. >> Which of those three is hardest to achieve? >> Well, funny is always hard to achieve because it's just a gut instinct. There's no formula that makes anything work. So, you have to trust that it'll happen. And there are people that really know themselves and trust themselves and they can be really funny and really funny on the spot. But you are just you do have to get a place where your inner critic goes away. You do have to I mean David Miltch who is one of my men mentors uh says it's all about like suppressing your ego so you can get in this like clearheaded space to let the creativity creativity bubble up. >> And if you're thinking about yourself and what people will think about it, will they like it? Well, they not like it. It's all like a block to the actual creative moment. >> And so you spend so much of your time trying to figure out how can I get in that space and and especially for jokes, it's all just jumping off a mountain, not knowing if there's a parachute like like every single time. What have you learned about overcoming uncertainty, getting into that self-belief, even maybe sometimes before it was warranted? Is there any speedrunning this or are you just [ __ ] like every time that I sit down with a blank piece of paper, I just got to have faith? How does it work? >> Yeah, I I think it is like it's like a baseball player, you know, if he if he gets three hits out of 10, you know, he's one of the greats of all time. In a way, you have to think that like, yeah, you're not gonna score all the time. Whether it's jokes, whether your script is good, whether your movie came out well, there is, you know, even if you look at the greatest directors of all time, you could pick out like, oh, these are their movies are terrible, but they just went and made the next one. >> Sometimes the best one they ever made is after the worst one they've ever made. And I try to remind myself like, you know, you're just taking swings and that's okay. It's okay to not be perfect all the time, but you can't take this conversation to the computer when you're writing. >> You just have to see what happens. You know, I always say, you know, I try to >> I try to like spew and write and free write and not judge it and then the next day I go into judgment mode and read it and decide if there's anything of value. I try to separate the the flow moment from the judgment moment and I think that people slow down because they're trying to do it at the same time. >> Wasn't that was that Walt Disney's plan as well? He had three writer rooms and in the first one there was no such thing as a bad idea and then you sort of distill it down on that point. Uh this wonderful statistic about Roger Federra. Roger Fedra played 1,526 singles matches across his career. He won nearly 80%. But he only won 54% of all of the points that he played. >> Wow. >> Which means that one of the greatest to ever do it lost nearly every other point. So it's about treating every iteration like it matters and then letting it go. Whether it's an unforced error, a perfect winner, it's still just one point. And realizing that, okay, we get another shot at this. But I suppose again the challenge that you're facing is if you're practicing in public or if you're being scrutinized based on your last performance. >> The stakes are well what if this is the end? What if that's such a huge face plant that I can't I will never come back from this? >> Yeah. He if he loses it doesn't end his career. But you can make a movie bad enough to end your career. >> Wow. or or or bad enough that like your budgets are going to get lower and people's faith in you will disappear. I mean, there definitely have been directors who've made movies that are they're bad in such a bizarre way that people think that they lost it and they don't quite recover. >> Are there any examples of that that come to mind? >> Um, maybe it was the movie Gely, the Martin Breast movie. Okay. >> With uh Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez. I never saw it. It got a lot of press as as a as a movie that didn't work. >> Okay. >> But you also felt like >> it, you know, it breaks, you know, it breaks your career in a way because people are like, "Oh, I didn't think you could make one that bad." [laughter] Well, it's a maybe it's a skill. Who knows? Um, okay. So, you've kind of got to you've got to face the the uncertainty every time that you sort of jump into it. What about wise and true? >> People debate like what you can say on stage, what you can say on stage. And I also add to that like if you have a good heart, you can say almost anything. You know, if you're if you have a at at the core of it, if you're a good person and you're trying to figure something out, then I think you can do edgy jokes and you can do dark jokes because people can sense your goodness. Or if you're really screwed up and saying something demented and you kind of mean it and and that's that's like a very subtle human observation that the crowd is making because there are comedians who get away with saying some wild stuff but there's something in their spirit that makes it okay. Like well Jimmy Carr is a great example of that. you know, he's a really fantastic guy and he has the edgiest jokes of anyone on the planet >> and he can have that career because people know where his heart is. >> They they know even in the worst >> most intense type of subject matter, >> they know the message three levels below the joke. >> Yeah. >> They just sense it from him. And so he gets like a free pass because we know what he's going for and why. Yeah. and other people could do the same stuff and like they would not be allowed, you know, to have that type of >> career. I'm not sure that you're doing this from quite as equinimous and caring of a place as somebody like Jimmy. I suppose this is what the accusation of that joke went too far is. That is somebody imbuing intention beyond >> what was there. And I think uh trying to basically sort of fill in the the vacuum of uncertainty of is Jimmy Carr a nice person? Is Shane Gillis actually a nice person? And them saying ah well this joke isn't just a joke. It belies some underlying motivation. It's like a it's a a little iceberg peeking above the water that shows the xenophobic, racist, misogynist, transphobic, judgmental whatever that has been hiding below the surface. And I guess dealing with a cancellation like that, like whatever, a news story like that, I don't even know if cancellation like fully exists anymore. Dealing with that is you saying, "Fuck you. I'm a good person." >> Yeah. And and like especially with those two, the audience loves them and you know they're good guys and so they're you know and that's the thing they bring onto the stage and so they could talk about difficult subject matter. They know when you're goofing cuz you know there's a lot of people they want to see the edgiest stuff because life is so crazy and they they like the comedians to just pop the pressure on it all and to say the thing you shouldn't say or to like acknowledge how insane it all is through their jokes. And some of it, you know, if you wrote it down, you'd be like, "What what does that mean?" But there's another message which is like we're here together consoling each other that the world feels really [ __ ] up right now. And so there's other levels to it that [snorts] are really important. And and and I always say that people have different tastes. You know, some people some people love country music, some people like you, you know, uh heavy metal, and there's a place for all of it. I think that in the modern culture, one of the big issues of the internet and social media is it's kind of made everyone feel like we're all supposed to like everything where in the old days I feel like say say you're into a band and there were these bands that weren't that popular, but the people who like them loved them. >> They were just obsessed with this band that maybe sold 20,000 records >> and that was fine. But in I feel like in the modern age, people would go they're not successful where that used to not mean the same thing. There was more alternative culture. >> Uh because you're not supposed to like all the comedians. You're supposed to pick the one you like. Maybe you like the clean comedian. Maybe you like the filthy comedian. But but I feel like the people who like the clean comedian might be mad at the filthy comedian. >> Yeah. >> And so hopefully that's changing. But I think that is what throws people cuz you're being fed it. Like maybe you wouldn't have ever seen that comedian if it didn't show up in your feed. But in the old days, nothing was fed to you. You'd had to seek it out. >> Uh I I think it's such a good point. Uh first off, the currency of size has been uh normalized, equalized across the world. I can see your follow account. I can see how many plays your last special got. I can tell whether you're on Netflix or whatever it is. Secondly, subcultures are being judged globally. They don't exist in their own little silo anymore. So you can say that comedian's cringe and you shouldn't listen to them or whatever it is because the communication's become decentralized. Yeah. >> Something else that Jimmy said to me >> was people who say that thing is too sensitive to joke about are saying the exact same as that disease is too serious to treat. and he saw the joking about it as the salve, as the proof that we can try and bring some levity to this really serious issue. And a final bit from Douglas Murray, this is forever ago, uh gay man talking about how in his opinion um sort of gay rights, the the fight for gay rights, it's like I think that we're done. And the coddling in his view of gay people was a type of prejudice that nobody realized was a prejudice. He said, uh, you can work out when you have fully assimilated into a society and when you've got true equality when you have to put up with the same level of [ __ ] that everybody else does. And I I saw that as almost like uh no longer being paternalistic or patronizing by saying, "Oh, we'll we'll try and treat you with this special sort of source that need you mustn't you can't po we can't you can't handle it." As opposed to like no like cool in you come along with the [ __ ] that everybody else has to deal with. And I think that that the audience can sense like what I was saying before that when your heart's in the right place, right? Like they they just know when you're doing that because there is that ver version of comedy which is inclusive by giving everybody a hard time. But there is the mean-spirited stuff. And just like some music is bad, some comedy is just bad. And that's okay. I mean, you know, if you're going to have a thousand comedians, of course, you're going to have some that what they're saying makes no sense or it's cruel or it's whatever. That's just like part of the system of people deciding who they like and who they don't like because so many of these subjects, they're they're so sensitive and it takes like a really bright mind to know how can I talk about this? Like what what is the angle to to get that across? And some people are very sophisticated. And then some people are very uh sloppy, >> you know, and maybe they don't even mean to be mean, but they're kind of lazy or maybe they're not a great joke writer and it's easier, you know. So, and that's also what's fun about comedy is it's really hard and we're all looking to go, who figured it out? >> You know, >> a quick aside, if you have been feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the problem. They play a huge role in your energy, your focus, and your performance. But most people have no idea where theirs are or what to do if something's off. which is why I partnered with function because I wanted a smarter, more comprehensive way to understand what's happening inside of my body. Twice a year, they run lab tests that monitor over a 100 biomarkers and their team of expert physicians analyze the data and give you actionable advice to improve your health and lifespan. Seeing your testosterone levels and tons of other biomarkers charted over the course of a year with actionable insights to improve them gives you a clear path to making your life better. And unfortunately, getting your blood work drawn and analyzed like this usually costs thousands. But with function, it's just $499. And you can get an additional $100 off bringing it down to 399 bucks. Get the exact same blood panels that I get and save a h 100red bucks by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdism. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. Yeah, you say it takes 10 years to really know if you've made a good movie. I imagine that that must be a difficult world to get into which is tenure test on a movie which can be using the exact same fundamental skill of comedy when standup gives you the response in 0.3 seconds. >> So immediate feedback mechanism decade long feedback mechanism. >> Uh I'm interested in the >> it's not even delayed gratification. delayed assessment of your body of work >> with this Batman versus Bruce Wayne life of and also I need to be prepared to accept it immediately if I go and do something very similar tonight at the [ __ ] black factory. >> Yeah. Well, you're judged by by you know by when you make a movie the judgment is coming at different stages, right? So the movie comes out so there's a critical judgment and then there's a financial judgment. Sometimes you have a great movie it doesn't make money. Sometimes you have a bad movie, it does make money. You know, there's every permutation of that and then there's this next judgment which is did people actually like it. So you have there are movies that get bad reviews or make no money and then 10 years later you realize, wait, everyone talks about that movie and they forgot it got bad reviews >> or they don't remember that it didn't make any money. And that's the thing that I noticed. No one remembers what something did or what the reviews were unless it was really extreme >> years later. So, we've had these movies like Walk Hard, which didn't open, and then, you know, 15 years later, you realize, oh, this is like in the top three of all the movies we've done, and people keep watching it, and it never goes away. You can tell when you go on Netflix and it has like the little strip of comedies, and you go, "Oh, we got a couple. We got a couple up there." And some of them you realize aren't around much because they've just people aren't as into them and they don't move up the algorithm >> out of the zeitgeist. and other things you go, "Wow, that movie like never goes away." And you could just tell people must like it and they keep showing it. I don't know what how the system works, but like, "Hey, look, Bridesmaids is still like right there in that key spot, and it doesn't seem to be slipping." And that's the audience judging. >> What's been a real uh U-shaped curve, bad weekend to tenure success? I mean, there are ones that like did like okay, but years later you're like, I don't know. That's one of the main ones they talk about. There's a movie called Heavyweights. There was about a summer camp for Overweight Boys. It starred Ben Stiller. Keenan Thompson was in it. Pige acted in it. And we made that in 1995. Uh, and it's on Disney Plus right now. And so it didn't, you know, maybe cost 10, made 20. It was kind of a wash. Uh the reviews weren't very good and now you go, "All right, all this like 30 years later, it's in the main spot on Disney Plus. People watch it like I put it out yesterday and it's a lot of people's favorite movie from like when they were kids and you're like, "Wow, we we really didn't think anyone was paying attention to that >> and and that's really fun, too, you know, to see things like that." This is 40 is probably the one that most people mention to me. you when people say hi 90% of the time they mention this is 40 and this is 40 did pretty good at the box office it wasn't gigantic but it seems to just keep rising in esteem in a really wonderful way because it's very truthful and also people enter that age group and they watch it and [clears throat] they go oh it is true what what they're talking about there >> one of the things that me and a few of my friends have talked about especially I'm 37 so for me a 40-year-old virgin as an example, Anchor Man, you know, these >> comedy movies moved culture and created taglines that people still now are referring to. Like it's almost >> part of the lexicon sort of modern western language. >> And I don't know the last movie from the comedy world that did nudge that. And it seems like something happened between 2015 to now >> where you go, what was the last movie that people quoted by the water cooler adnauseia like it was just part of the lexicon. What do you what do you come to think about what's happened? And there's this streaming stepping in, lack of box office, people being into their own niches, and nobody having the collective consumption that allows it to reach escape velocity at the same time. Have you considered that? Do you know the dynamic I'm talking about? >> Oh, absolutely. I think it's pretty simple that in the old days, comedies would uh do really well on DVD. So, because people like to own them and watch them over and over again. So if you made a movie like Anchor Man, if it made $60 million, it would also make 60 on DVD, so it would be a big hit. And then when people switched to streaming, nothing replaced the DVD money, right? So now the bet is different. You have to make more in the box office to be a hit. >> You're optimizing for opening weekend. >> Yeah. That's so so so it's hard to know the numbers exactly what the numbers are, but if you made a movie for 20 in the old days, if it made 40 and and 40 on DVD, which adds up to 80, you're you're good. So now take away the 40, you made a movie for 20, it's made 40, but you also had to spend 20 million on marketing and then suddenly it's negative or a wash. where studios can place a different kind of bet on a giant movie that costs $200 million and they're hoping it makes $900 million, but they have every market in the world to sell it to. And the same for horror on the other side. A horror movie might cost $5 million and it can travel to other countries where comedy doesn't always play well in Bulgaria. It plays well culturally specific. >> Yeah. And so all those things just made studios go, we don't want to make as many bets on that. But then you get into a doom loop, which is the audience gets out of the habit of going. The writers start writing different types of movies because there's no money in it. >> Being eaten up by the horror genre. >> Yeah. And then they're not uh breaking new comedy stars because they're not giving people opportunities. So, you don't get your next Adam Sandler or Amy Schumer because they're not taking the risk to give them the movie to prove they're a movie star, but it's always one huge hit away from reversing itself. So, if someone made The Hangover right now, it would be gigantic and then they would chase it a little bit. >> Oh, this has proven that there is money to be made in that area of the world. So, we will start to try and workshop more stuff that's like that. >> Yeah. It it I always say it's like when they used to not make pirate movies because they thought no one wants a pirate movie. There was a big pirate bomb movie that Roman Palansky made with Walter Matau and so you hadn't seen pirate movies in forever and then Pirates of the Caribbean happens and then suddenly it's like the biggest thing and that is how it works. it is uh cyclical and you would think with how uh rough the world is lately that comedy would be the genre that would get bigger and bigger but also I feel like the other genres decided to also be comedies. So the action movies are kind of like comedies and the dramas are kind of funny and so everyone has pulled it in and the audience is like yeah Marvel movie is basically a comedy for half of it. >> Yeah that's interesting. I uh I think I had McConnA on the show and he was talking about how the biggest cash cow in movie history was romcoms for him because he's saying super cheap to make reruns at Valentine's Day, reruns at Christmas, DVD sales through the roof, >> uh licensing or full works. And um >> I'd never considered kind of the business of movies. Obviously, it's ultimately a money-making exercise. Um but yeah, but then you go and look at Avengers and you think technically a little bit more complex, larger bet in order to be able but in some ways a little bit more of a safe bet. Um I wonder why it is that we haven't had in a time where people could do with a bit more levity. I wonder why it is that we haven't had that resurgence of >> I guess there's you know independent new series coming through. Perhaps it is that comedy is being like eaten up by other genres >> and streaming. I mean there's you know movies uh on streaming. There's TV shows. There's a lot of TV shows and there's ton of tons of internet comedy and people doing all sorts of things. So I think some of the talent has you know who normally would go I want to write for Saturday Night Live and write big comedy movies. They're finding other ways to express themselves. >> I mean, look at Shane with tires. >> Yeah. And that that is, you know, a model that people have where you you go off and you raise the money and you show what you want to do and then you sell it to the, you know, to the streamer and you you prove yourself that way. And that is probably the answer for comedy, which is for it to do what it did back when I first started, which is Kevin Smith made clerks, they made, you know, swingers. uh Doug Lyman and John Fabro and and uh and Vince Vaughn and they did it cheap and so I think we have the technology we just need some lunatics to make something groundbreaking now cheap because that's wave >> that's what changes the genre is that someone just did it's like South Park South Park started out as a Christmas card you know someone paid them to do a video Christmas card and they did the Santa versus Jesus South Park Christmas card that was a few minutes and it was just the funniest thing you've ever seen in your life, but they did it with paper cutouts. It was just hand >> like stop motion >> animated. It wasn't done for any money. And then they did a pilot and and South Park became South Park and it's still the funniest thing out there. But you need innovation from people who don't have the big money. >> I wonder who'll fire the starting pistol on that. Uh, you've got this line. I know my level of fame. If I say no, they say all right. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. If someone says, "Are you Jed Appalau?" If I say no, they go, "All right." >> Oh, [laughter] I read That's That's funny. That is funny. Uh, I also had this insight around um when you get to a particular level of gravitas or impressiveness, how many people tell you no? Well, it's [ __ ] Jud Appattow. Like, he knows what he's doing. Look at this illustrious list of previous productions that he's done. And is that a challenge to be uh correction checked, fact checked with your intuition, which sometimes is going to be wrong. It's like, "Hey, hey, hey, no. This one's a no. I know you think it's a yes." >> Yeah. >> At the start of your career, it's all nos. Mhm. >> And then the tenacity that you've got turns into momentum, turns into respect, turns into pliability and sick of fancy and before you know it, you're putting out something that's not being stress tested by the rest of the team. Is that a dynamic that you felt? >> I think that it's important to just figure out who your collaborators are. So, I've made, you know, the vast majority of my movies with Universal since uh The 40-year-old Virgin and it's the same people and they are >> show you no respect. [laughter] >> Well, they like we know each other well enough that we don't have to do any of those dances. Like they'll tell me like, "Hey, I don't think the third act is working so well." And that's really helpful to have a lot of trust where people know they can challenge you and they're not going to hesitate to give you notes and and you know that they're smart and that it's all worth listening to because you know the the nightmare is that you're just working for someone who doesn't get it and you're having a creative debate with someone that you're very different than. And that's that that's truly the worst thing that never happens. >> Yeah. And some people like different things. So, it's almost like you don't why do you have to like what I'm doing? You know what I mean? Like like if you said to a friend, "Here are all the movies nominated for an Oscar for best picture this year." Almost all your friends will hate about twothirds of them. >> Y >> and it doesn't mean the ones they hate are bad. It just means they're bad to them. So when you're in a creative relationship with somebody, it's it's not that they're like dumb or smart, but also maybe their entire life experience makes them not connect with what you're trying to express. If I'm doing a movie about being 40 and I'm talking to a 25-year-old who doesn't have kids, I'm having a different conversation. And so the best thing that ever happened to me was the moments when I found people that got it and were really smart and could go, but seriously, this part isn't good. Where I I think, okay, I'm going to look at that because I I trust their instincts. >> In other news, I've been drinking AG1 every morning for years now. Dude, you tried to fast ball me that. That was down the plate and I've just show Otani. I've been drinking AG1 for as long as I can remember. It is the best all-in-one drink that I've ever found. And that's why I'm such a fan of them. And that's why I partnered with them as well. I have got my mom to start taking it, my dad to start taking it, and all of my friends as well. And if I found anything better, I would switch, but I haven't. Why do you keep throwing it at the mic? Stop throwing it at the mic. See? Anyway, uh over 75 vitamins, minerals, and whole food source ingredients. Got probiotics and prebiotics. Also NSF certified, meaning that even Olympians can use it. And in the throat. In the throat. How dare you? >> I hit the [laughter] I hit the [ __ ] >> Ah. Ah. This isn't even an ad read anymore. It's just a war zone. Oh, okay. Okay. Anyway, if you too want something to throw at your friends or a tasty uh blend of 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food sourced ingredients designed to drink first thing in the morning in one scoop, it's here. Go to drink1.com/moddernwis wisdom for stuff a thank you. So this I mentioned I'm going to bin this show after this run new one uh starts and then we go to Australia in March with a new show. So I'm starting to think about what this is. uh the one that I did for this which has been going for two years now uh completely just like bootstrapped creatively myself which resulted in me making a turn of errors uh I decided okay for the next one it'd be good to get a director wouldn't that be cool so we sort of send up the bat signal and start to ask a few people and start to do a few different interviews and uh the guy that we've ended up going with this dude called Ed from the UK who's [ __ ] fantastic I do this interview with him it's only 30 and his credentials are impressive and all the rest of the stuff and this is before this run around before even the work in progress shows. I was like, I've got this new section that I'm thinking of doing in the show and I was thinking of adding some music to it and what do you think about that? >> Uh just as a like partly I can get some [ __ ] free uh insight on a show that he's not working on during his job interview and he can't really say no. You can't be like oh you must pay me my hourly rate for that. Um, but also I was like, "Oh, it' just be interesting to see what he says." And he sort of thought for a moment and he was like, "I think it's [ __ ] [laughter] I think it's a [ __ ] idea and I think that it's hammy and tacky and I think that it's going to destroy what is a really great section." And you had illustrious history and all the things and the skill set and good demeanor and British and available and the right price and all the rest of the stuff. But the reason that I decided to give him the job was that he told me no. >> Yeah. >> Even when he knew that it would risk his appeasement of me during the [ __ ] job interview. >> Yeah. >> And I was like, "Wow, if this guy's prepared to tell me no when he's pitching for his own job, he cares more about the product, about shipping something that's good than he [clears throat] does about his or my ego." And I was like, it's it just was the first time where I fell in that dynamic had happened. Like during a job interview, you're supposed to like try and make the person feel as good as possible, tell them what they want to hear. It's like by telling me what I could have not wanted to hear. >> That was actually the biggest green flag that I could have seen. I thought that was really interesting. >> No, those people are so essential even when it when it's painful. You know, sometimes I'll do a table read of a script and it doesn't go well, you know, because it's really helpful to just hear it and you invite all your friends and friends of friends who are writers and then you have to tell them, "Okay, hit me with the truth." There's nothing you can say that will offend me and and create a space where people will say what what uh what they they feel. And it's always helpful. Even if you disagree with some of it, you'll notice, "Oh, a few people thought that. Oh, this is a common criticism." >> Especially if one person says it and everyone else goes, >> "Yeah, >> yeah, I agree." >> It's like when they test a movie, they always do a focus group after. So, they'll take 20 people out of a crowd of like 300 and they'll have somebody interview them about the movie and they'll say, "Which parts did you find slow? Which parts uh didn't make sense to you?" And and so someone will always have an opinion like I didn't I didn't know why the girl kissed him. He seems like a jerk. And then they'll go who else thought that? And like 20 people's come up and that becomes really helpful because sometimes you're just not communicating properly >> and people just aren't understanding what you're you're going for. But it is like you have to be like in the mode to like >> take brace for impact, >> take those bullets cuz it's it's it's >> this was my baby. I was so sure that it was going to be good. I want you to you to like it and like me and not abandon me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Sometimes I'll sit so far up in the movie theater while they're doing the focus group and I'm just so low in the chair and I'm just like eating KitKats [laughter] like while they're criticizing like taking notes but like suffering and >> Yeah. Yeah. You've got to have your comfort blanket and comfort food and comfort [ __ ] emotional stress animal. Uh you mentioned before about mentors. Do people underpric how influential or important mentors can be? >> I don't know if everybody talks about the concept of mentors. I I was lucky that I met Gary Shanling when I was very young and he let me write the Grammys for him and then he hired me at the Larry Sanders show and then he let me direct and let me co-run it one year and then he read all my scripts and would give me notes and encourage me and so it it made me think, oh, this is what you're supposed to do for other people. And so that was just like a mindset like all right well I'll help people with their scripts and try to help them learn how to do this so that maybe it's an easier ride if someone tell tells them what to look out for. Um, and a lot of times I would have a project and I would give it to Gary and just the fact that he liked the script gave me the confidence to do the work because I so believed in his opinion and trusted it that if he was like, "Yeah, this 40-year-old Virgin script's really, really funny. This is going to work." And then he would say, you know, I think you need to figure out the end. And and and he would give me notes. But just that he liked it put so much gas in my tank and and so him being gone I think has really hurt me because it really was uh one of the things I really leaned on. >> Second brain. >> Yeah. Does he understand what I'm doing and I knew he wouldn't [ __ ] me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's cool. I I get the sense, you know, going back to that soloreneur lean startup mode production thing that lots of people can do. The lack of collaboration, the lack of needing somebody else. Hey dude, I need you to hold the camera. So, I don't need you to hold the camera. And maybe the person that you're that is doing it for you, you need to do it for next week and that becomes mentor, collaborator, whatever it might be. Um, >> this siloing uh has caused a a mentor effect. I see it in what I've done, you know, thousand episodes and like people stepped in, but it was much more of a like contractor mentor. It was a it was a one night stand, not a not a long-term relationship. Um, but you know to speak to the industry that I'm in, we are really [ __ ] fortunate that kind of the media of the moment, podcasting, long form interviews, uh, the guy that is at the top of the tree is a really [ __ ] benevolent person. Like, because it didn't need to be that way. Yeah, >> we didn't need to have Rogan who is as sort of selflessly philanthropic when it comes to sharing limelight and pedestalizing people who don't have a platform and just following his instincts and sticking with something that he likes regardless of whether or not it's cool or popular or in or trending or whatever. >> It totally did not need to be that way. It could have been some tyrannical [ __ ] that had managed to get themselves into this position and didn't want to ever share the limelight and was very zero sum and scarcity mindset and backbit bitey and all the rest of it. And uh yeah, I mean maybe this is because I'm exclusively because I'm inside of the tent pissing out, but as far as I can see, I think we're real fortunate that the person who kind of got to be the king of the first wave of this was someone who's super pro-social because it it totally [ __ ] didn't need to be that way at all. >> I mean, it reminds me like when you used to play uh when I used to play the the improv, you weren't allowed to play the Comedy Store. like they were in competition and that was like a big thing like are you an improv person or you a comedy store person or >> it's like the bloods and the crips >> or in the old days like if you did this talk show you couldn't do that talk show and and things would be cut off to you. It wasn't like the the whole world was was embracing >> of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My the guest booking company that helps us uh a bunch of the guys and girls that they've got there used to work at Fallon or at Kimmel or whatever and Yeah. You'd get one. You get one. It's like, who's going to get Chris Hemsworth or, you know, whatever on the next run? Gerard Butler's just finished this movie and oh no, they got whatever. >> Um, yeah, I that's a territorial kind of approach to things. Um, >> and in the old days, like you know, the way that Gary Shanning would do it is he had the Larry Sander show and he would just have on the people he thought were funny or he would make them the staff writers and there was a mentor system that you'd get I was a low-level writer. I'd come in two days a week the first year and just pitch jokes and then slowly you'd rise and you were mentored just by being allowed to work there. And so you'd be at a table with like some of the great comedy writers, John Regi and Maya Forbes and Paul Sims and Peter Tolen and and just by watching them work, they were mentoring you just by seeing their >> Maybe you have to go and get a coffee. Maybe it's uh you know, you're there to service people in a way. Well, we're out of ink. We're out of paper. Like, you know, this it is it's the mail room kind of slow uh exposure uh thing. And this is look, if I had a a piece of advice for pretty much anybody that wants to break into at least my industry, if you're good at what you do and you offer work for free to somebody and you say, "Hey, I'm going to come to wherever you are and do whatever it is that you need. I'm a great editor. Get me your files. I'll just I will up and you can call this out." I think that you can actually just break the fourth wall about it and say, "I know that you need this thing. I can give it to you. I'm not going to charge you right now, but in 3 months or 6 months time when you can't imagine living without me, I am going to come with my hand out and we're going to organize a deal. And you can call out the arc that it's going to go through. It's exactly the way that Dean did it with me. And for the first two and a half, three years of the show, we basically broke. It was a wash >> and now >> it's not. Yeah. And uh yeah, if you make yourself indispensable to somebody by uh having the early objections of I don't know if I can trust them and I don't know if it's going to make sense financially and I don't whatever. Like do the apprenticeship thing because pretty soon they're not going to be able to remember what life was like without you. And I think now they have no choice. Yeah, that was always my approach to everything when I was trying to break in. Like I just want to overd deliver it to a ridiculous extreme. So if you asked me to do anything that the work would level would be so high if Shan wanted a few jokes for the Grammys, I'd write him a hundred. >> I I just wanted to people to always think no one is going to outwork him. And maybe when I wasn't as good, but it mattered because like I was, you know, I I cared so much. >> Lot of shots at goal. >> Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, like with Chandling, he would fix all the jokes. So, even if they weren't good, he'd be like, "Oh, that's a good idea, but maybe you should say this." And it was it was fun for him to have too many jokes. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh and uh yeah, I was always a proponent of working for free, just getting the first job I ever had, I worked for Comic Relief in the United States, which is uh you know, it was a big live aid type event for >> the bear with the eye, right? We have one in the UK. >> Yeah. So the the the one here is, you know, for the homeless. And I called them up when I was in college and I said, "I'll work for you for free." And they didn't hire me. And then 3 months later, someone called me like, "Yeah, we need you now." And then I worked for them for five years after that. >> For free. >> Well, a couple of years for [laughter] free. And then they gave me $200 a week, but I needed that $200 a week. And then I was writing jokes for another $200 a week. And I was doing standup and making $200 a week. So like, oh my god, I got 600 bucks a week. and I was always willing to to scrape that way. >> Is there some common advice that you're glad you ignored? It's something that most people believe is true but isn't. >> People were pretty supportive. Like my family always thought I could work and believe that something would happen. I'm trying to think what the bad advice I got. I mean, I certainly got, you know, there always people just don't believe in you or they they tell you to do this instead of that. >> Um, >> notes from standards and practices. >> I remember the I was writing jokes for Tom Arnold and Tom Arnold told me like, I'm going to have a TV show and have a sitcom and uh I told my agent and they're like, he's not going to have a sitcom. Believe me, I know. I know the head of the network. He's not going to have a sitcom. And then uh Tom got a sitcom, you [laughter] know, and I was like and he and he and he didn't kind of line me up to work for it because he just didn't believe it. And so, you know, those things happen all the time, but there wasn't one bad bad piece of advice. I misinterpreted advice. I mean, but people is someone I know said to me, when you make television, like when you make a TV pilot, don't take any of the notes you you don't agree with. Because if you ruin it based on their notes, when it's time to decide if they want to make it a series or not, they're not going to say, "I'm sorry, I screwed you up with my notes. Let's do it." [laughter] you know, so you you should uh >> you know, be judged based on what your idea is and your approach to it is, but I didn't understand the politics of that debate. When you reject, I I would just be like, well, I'm not doing it now. What happens? I mean, I didn't know that there was a give and a take and and the appearance of of u civility and and listening because I would I would just be so frustrated >> because a lot of times when you get notes, you're not getting it from the head person. You're getting it from like a lower level person who has the terrible job to give you all. And so that relationship is always weird because you know that some of the notes you disagree with aren't theirs. They're from some crazy boss who you don't see very much. Yeah. >> And then you're like, "Okay, so how many should I do to make that person happy so they'll maybe like us to not cancel the TV show?" And I would always play that wrong and get cancelled. >> Ah, >> over and over again. I would just not know how to uh how to have that relationship. >> Yeah. I think there's definitely kind of a balance between being a slick operator and um being sort of so talented that it's not about the networking, it's about just sort of the raw product itself, whatever. And um there's definitely a romanticization of well, I mean, he's just so good. He's a bit eccentric and he's kind of hard to work with and everybody hates him and he's a total nightmare and he turns up late and sometimes not at all. But like he's so good because it feels like artistic purity. There's a little bit of elitism in there like, "Oh, you don't get it, man." You know, it's like the very technical math rock band or whatever and you're like, "Oh, you wouldn't you wouldn't understand. Like it's too sophisticated for you." Um, >> or like Larry David, you know, you always hear about Larry David getting bad notes on Seinfeld and and the legend, I don't know if it's even true, was that he was always like, "Well, let's not do the show. You know, he was always willing to walk away. I'd be happy not to do it." And uh I don't know if that's true or not, but it it if it is, you know, there is a power in that. But when I've done it, they've said, "Okay, let's not do the show." >> No, wait. No, I didn't mean that. >> Wait, I thought this was my power move to to do that. >> And you never you never know. And and it's funny because I've been on the other side of the notes because as a producer I'm the one giving the notes to the writers. So I'm very aware like I can screw up their script if I give them a bad note or send them off in the wrong direction >> again because holy [ __ ] it's Jud Appetite. Like I'd better listen to what he's got to say. Like he's always he must be right about this. He's more experienced than me or better credentials than me. So my correction to your thing that I think is an error might also be an error. like there's some infinite human centipede that's just going round and round and round. Um so yeah, you've got the the one side artistic purity. this is the the but then on the other side you have the person who is so proficient at the social stuff that it almost makes people start to question how much legitimacy is in the art here and have they just finessed their way through this and there's you know a first order effect skepticism around the person who's too slick of an operator and you go >> h there's some there there is if I poke this thing is it you know I can wafer thin and there's nothing it's hollow. Um because maybe we're maybe we scrutinize people who feel seem to us as if they're playing the game a lot because it feels like compensatory >> like oh this is to h if he was really that good he wouldn't need to be in all of the rooms he wouldn't need to be smooing take it to dinners and all the rest of it >> but um >> and that's the hard part about Joe business because >> there is a smoo aspect to it and that's the thing you realize like part of it is like to People want you around. They want to talk to you. So, you know, if you're trying to set up a TV show, the the network or the streamer, they're also making a choice of they want to interact with you for years. >> And and if you're not cool and they're on the bubble about whether or not to do it, they're always not going to do it if they don't want to have that relationship. And with some people are incredibly talented, but they're also kind of fun to be around. And there are people who are incredibly talented and they they are not fun to be around. >> This again is I think seen nowhere as sharply as in bands touring musicians >> because you're living on a [ __ ] bus together. Sometimes for weeks, sometimes for months. And that's 6 months of your life every year is you locked in a moving tube with that guy >> who's a [ __ ] dick. or who rubs you up the wrong way, just you or everybody or whatever. But he's so good on the drums or he's so good as a singer or she's so fantastic on the B, whatever it is. >> And he go, >> "Yeah, but the uh cost of morale is not worth the profit of bass playing." There's a comedy version of that which is, you know, in a, you know, on television shows, say you have eight writers in the room and the the writer that is the negative vibe, you know, sometimes it's people who criticize but don't pitch the fix >> or whatever. They're distracting or they're annoying. They always call them a room killer. >> Ah, mood hoover. >> Yeah. Because then you're like, I hate going to work cuz that guy's in the room. And that's a big thing about creating the chemistry of of those creative spaces because it only takes one person to just disrupt the flow of of everybody. >> Yeah. And I suppose you do have this strange balancing act where someone who's just got such fantastic skill needs to learn to be a good operator. It's like, hey, >> be a good hang. It's important for you to be a good hang. >> It's important for you to respond with positivity where possible. Yeah. Uh, and it's a much more difficult uh, piece of advice to say to somebody who's a really good hang to be like, "Yo, be better." >> Yeah. >> Be you kind of suck at the job you're supposed to do. I love having you around, but you're sort of useless. >> Yeah. >> And, uh, yeah, finding the right balance of that, I suppose, is a challenge. Yeah. >> Japan. >> Yes. >> Ladies and gentlemen, where should people go keep up to date with everything that you've got that's going on at the moment? Uh there's a jetabatile.com website out there and I'm on uh Instagram. I have a little link tree of the shows we're doing. I do shows at Largo once a month, standup shows that are usually pretty interesting. I'm doing one tonight with uh musician Andrew Bird and Tom Papa and Kevin Nan and Wayne Federman and >> Oh, it's stacked. >> Yeah, we do we do uh these benefits. So once a month we put on a show and we pick a charity. It's for like tonight it's City of Hope and it's an excuse to just ask people if they want to hang out and have fun and put on a show. And over the years we've had everybody from Kevin Hart to Randy Newman to Beck to to you know Amy Schumer come to these events and so it's really fun. >> Unreal. It's a real uh Russian roulette of who you're going to find this evening. And the book >> and the book Comedy Nerd uh which is a autobiography in scrapbook form is uh it's out there. It's It's been released. You have access to it. It's a good uh It's a good holiday gift. It's the size of a holiday gift. It's heavy. It's actually It's 570 pages and it's heavy. So, when you give it to someone, it's not that expensive, but >> feels expensive. >> It feels expensive. >> Wonderful weapon. If you have a Home Invader. >> Oh, yes. >> Good for flattening down any pastries that need to be done. >> If you drop it, you could you could shatter your foot. >> Okay. Well, I appreciate you, Jud. Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you very much for tuning in, you 40-year-old virgin. Uh, if you want to watch another episode with someone from Hollywood, Matthew McConnA,