Who Are You Without Your Job Title / Gabriela Salinas / Episode #261

Hi, I'm Gabriella Selenas and this is the service design [music] show episode 261. There's a lie a lot of us in design have quietly bought into that good work speaks for itself and putting yourself out there is just bragging. But here's a twist. What if staying silent is actually the riskier move? That's exactly what we're digging into in this episode. Hi, my name is Mark Fontine and this is the Service Design Show. Our goal here is simple, to figure out how we design services that actually resonate with people, push businesses forward, and do some good for our planet. Our guest today is Gabriella Selenas. She's been designing services for over 15 years, mostly in finance with an entrepreneurial streak that goes back to when she was a kid. She ran the service design chapter in Mterrey, Mexico. And now she's building a startup focused on AI augmented personas grounded in real research, not synthetic users. What's interesting about Gabriella's story isn't really the resume. She'll tell you honestly that the best thing that happened to her last year was actually getting laid off. We get into what she learned from reaching the final round of seven applications and landing none of them. Why she tells her mentees to stop applying to everything. and why some of the designers she knows are now opening taco shops because that turns out might be a kind of success, too. I asked Gabriella to just share her story and let us in on what she's been learning the hard way over the last years. So, in today's conversation, we get into how to stop tying your self-worth to your job title and how to take rejection less personally instead of letting anxiety ruin your decisions. We also talk about what you can actually do now to prepare for your next move, including a career futures exercise and how to read what the market is quietly telling you about where your skills are still wanted. I went into this conversation expecting a layoff story. But the moment that stuck with me most was the rejections, not the layoff. And the way Gabriella worked through those hard nos is generally useful whether you're job hunting right now or not. So, let's get into the conversation with Gabriella. Stick around for the end because I'll be back with a few closing thoughts. My name is Mark Fontine and you are listening to the service design show. Welcome to the show, Gabriella. >> Thank you, Mark. So happy to be here. >> I feel like we've been connected on uh LinkedIn at least forever. Uh and I've been following your work, the work you've been doing in the service design community in Mexico for a very long time. Uh I think a lot of people have known about you, have seen you, hopefully they've even met you. So it's it's a pleasure to to have you on. Um we are going to explore a topic that I feel is very relevant and it's very actual and it has come up a few times in the past episodes. So that tells us something and that is the fact that I think uh a lot of professionals a lot of service design professionals uh somehow tie up a lot of their personal value and a lot of their personal worth into their work. We are very passionate about the things that we do. We care about the things that we do. Um but so much that um when that falls away um it has a huge impact on us on our identity on our well-being and um that's not something that uh yeah it's it's not an ideal situation and now where our industry is going through a tough time at least in some places where people are getting laid off or reorgarchs are happening and people are struggling to find new ways uh new new positions, new jobs. Uh we need to we need to make sure that we are in a good mental healthy condition. Now you told me that you've been working in the finance space as a design professional for 15 years, but last year you were also part of uh bigger wave of people who lost their job because of uh of a layoff. So, I'm really curious, jumping straight in, could you take us back to that moment and talk us through what you feel was maybe the biggest lie you were telling yourself about your self-worth and how that was tied up in your work. >> Yeah. So this is such a a close to my heart topic because I've been working as you said for over 15 years in the financial sector and my last role I was there for almost four years. I was leading a strategic design and user research team and just during the four years that I was there this company transformed so much. they came from having like big rounds of investment and becoming a unicorn. Uh so just like these companies that really grow very fast this the startup in the crypto space and when I just joined the team was so big just in general like the design team I think we were like 30 people like doing product design uh content and the research team. I inherited the research team and there were around eight people in the team and then just shortly after that a couple months later I I received the news that they were doing a big layoff in the company. Obviously the design team was heavily impacted and then things were a bit stable for several years and then just like last year um the company was struggling. They had a lot of changes also in the leadership and then one day they just cut a lot of people. They cut the VP of design. They cut me and they cut all of the research team. So this is like something that I've seen happening a lot as well. Um uh I'm doing coaching and mentoring a lot of designers and most of them that come to me they have also experienced this and I I seen the news. izing the linking post like this is happening all over. So I thought it's besides being personal, it's also something that I worry what could happen long term for design for designers uh and for the companies as well >> and u therefore it is a very important topic to explore even if you're listening right now and not impacted by layoffs I hope you're not like this might give you um a preemptive a sort of a pre pro proactive um advice tips ideas, suggestions, but Gabriella, you sort of um quickly jumped over the fact that you were let go. Now, that might have come as a surprise or not, but like how did you what was going through your mind in like the week after this? How were you looking at yourself as a person, as a professional, as a designer? It was funny actually because I was living in Montter in the north of Mexico and the it the layoff was on Friday and on Monday I was supposed to travel to Mexico City for a company offsite and I already had planned a lot of things for that week because it was also my birthday week. Uh, and it was like, you know what? I'm still going to Mexico City. Let me book my own ticket and just go there and speak with people, network, see what what is going on, like just reconnect with my community that I had in Mexico City. Now I actually moved back to Mexico City because I used to live here. And those weeks, those following weeks were very interesting because for one side I was also connecting with the other team members that they live here in Mexico City. We had free time. We were just going to museums and stuff like that. But also talking a lot about what do we want to do next? Uh what do we see the market moving towards? Uh and this was last year. I think last year we were very worried about AI but I I know especially like this year this is more like connected to what's happening to to the playoffs. uh but just talking about the potential of what we can do with all of these tools maybe if we want to apply to roles or to teach or just thinking about a lot of possibilities but I was also thinking to myself like I don't want to rush I don't want to feel scared and to make decisions like to just start applying the next day like I want to really take a moment to reflect to disconnect to rest. Um I think I was definitely having some burnout. So, this was also part of the conversation like how can we just try to enjoy life and it's hard because you're I'm anxious like maybe if I waste my time uh there's probably going to be a role or something that I might miss but just making sure that uh on the personal side I'm I'm grounded and I'm I'm connected to myself and then just uh exploring the possibilities. >> You're making uh big leaps. So, we need to unpack a lot of things. uh >> being grounded and sort of connected to yourself. Those are really important. I want to understand a little bit more about that. But but first when you are let go and I'm I'm thinking if I was ever fired, I don't think I have been so I I haven't gone through the experience but um so you'll have to help me here. Losing your role maybe says something about the value people put on design. So, the company isn't quote unquote valuing design enough to keep you and you're a design professional. How do you how did you deal with that? Was that even a thought that was going through your mind at that moment? >> For sure. It was also my first time uh getting fired and I think that there's definitely this feeling of like who am I now that I'm not there like I think like having a role like in in my case like being a manager and having like this respected role in in in my design community here in Mexico and also because I'm very involved in in community building like what are they going to think is this does this has to do with me like how much of this was my fault or not that there were definitely thoughts on my mind um but at the same time you know since I've been in community and teaching a lot and mentoring as well um very informally in the past but like mentoring my students or people from the community or even people that were let go from a team my team in in the early years just knowing that this is something that is happening everywhere. Um it's not exactly tied to to you and especially when the entire team is let go. It's more of an organizational uh situation. Uh it was something that I think give me a little bit of peace of mind and also it was especially mentoring like a mirror and a little bit therapeutical talking with people that were going through that because I was trying to give advice to them but I was at the same time like listening to my advice like I think I'm giving advice to myself uh on all of this and and making sure that I understand that it's just something that happens sometimes. And were you doing that mentoring all while you were still in that role? >> Not really. I mean uh I will say yes like informally but actually like becoming a business and having like like a website and everything came out actually after the layoff. So okay, you had a let's say a prestigious role, a leadership role. People were uh you were doing things that people valued that your teammates valued and suddenly you you lose that that it's not there anymore. Now looking back on that experience, did you feel well prepared to go through that or is there anything that you feel ah I wish while I still had that role I would have done XYZ? >> Yeah, I mean not really like I think for one side like I think the most typical thing is that designers they never have their portfolio ready. Uh it's always a work in progress. It's definitely true for me. Um, I'm actually still working on that. Um, but I think that for sure I would have liked to to document my projects better while I was still within the projects and be ready for that. And then the other thing is this is something that I say a lot to my mentees but doing like some uh personal futures exercise just thinking about what can happen with your career in 20 or 30 years from now and exploring like as you will do with a consulting project for design futures like what could be all of the scenarios that you could experiment the good and the and the [clears throat] bad ones and what would you like to be doing? I think this is something that I I tend to think because I think I I've had an entrepreneurial spirit since a young age and I've done several like attempts of building companies but like I think at that point at that point I did not have like a specific idea or something that I wanted to build. So I think that when it was definitely a surprise when I had the layoff is like okay but what should I be working on right now this something that I I was not prepared for. >> Yeah. And I can imagine that this [clears throat] when you have a quoteunquote stable job and things are running and you're mostly busy making sure that you're productive that like there's an endless list of to-do items. Like where do you find the time to actually do conscious career planning and scenario planning and think about the future and like you're just happy that you are in a position, right? >> Yeah. You know what? It's funny because I used to think that I never had time to do any of this. But now, I mean, at least in my current situation that I'm working independently, I'm so extremely busy compared to those times and was like, you know, I should have made space to work more on this. >> And what would that look like? So, you are now uh talking to other design professionals. What do you tell them like make space? What does that mean? And what do you tell them to actually do? >> Yeah. So, I think that I have a lot of recommendations. For one, it's like I know that when when your day is done, you're probably super tired and you just want to lay on the couch and watch a movie or something. But just being intentional of for for once like just recognizing the things that you've done well because they will translate into your portfolio or or the stories you tell during uh any interview. And then also like connecting with people. I think networking and community is super important right now. I don't think like current jobs are being found just on LinkedIn. I actually know like so many of the people that come to my mentoring sessions, they say I applied to 50 jobs. It's like uh I don't think that's going to be fruitful for you. Like I see so many people just not getting anything out of that process but getting a job from a friend or a colleague or just being visible. And that's also something else that I say is like I know a lot of people probably dislike like this culture on LinkedIn of like posting every week or every couple of weeks or just being there and especially I know because like we are probably fed up with everything being like AI writing but visibility it's also something that is key to landing whatever ever is next for you or just exploring your even if it's h going to a job or being entrepreneur or whatever you want to do probably people will have you in your mind if you're visible if you're doing something if you're sharing your thoughts so I think those those are key like um I I will al also say like explore like taking time to explore hobbies um in parallel. I think now we have the the amazing tools that can help us launch and make stuff like very fast and exploring things even if it's just for fun. But you never know if any of these could ever be like a seed to something for your future. >> Uh yeah. No, absolutely. Uh, and when you say explore hobbies, like I I already I hear the resistance of everybody who I don't know, they have a busy job, they have uh a family. Uh so um but I'm [clears throat] always thinking like what's the price you'll pay by not doing that, right? Shortterm you might gain something, but long term that's uh that's a challenge. you were talking about uh applying to 50 jobs and finding roles to uh via LinkedIn. I'm very curious, did you eventually end up applying for new positions after you lost your previous role or did you immediately go into uh the stuff that you're doing right now? you know, it was also I think a typical I would say, but I didn't had actually the time to apply to anything yet when I was getting approached by companies. So, a lot of companies just realized that I was free and then they were like, "Oh, you know, we have like this uh director of design role or a lot of like service design principal roles." Like, okay, this sounds interesting. And I was open to it. I always believe in like you sometimes have to open doors, but sometimes also open doors open for you and you have to peek and see what's in there. So I was very open at the time. It's like I'm going to say yes to everything and see where that leads me. And so for all of these and there were at least seven that I can think of or at least that that I was really excited about uh in different parts of last year. Um so I did went and I had some interviews and in all of them I will say all of them I went on to the last interview like sometimes it was four rounds sometimes it was five h presenting cases or uh doing some challenges you know all of these things that they require of you and all of them they were always like oh we're so happy that you came to this like you're perfect for this role I even had some colleagues in some of these companies probably recommended me. I was so happy about that. But the interesting thing is like I landed none of those. Um and I think that reflecting like why there's going to be a lot of um things that I know like for for some of them for example I know that the roles were landed by other people in Latin America. So roles in Mexico, a lot of them are still remote and a lot of them are hiring in Latin America as opposed to like for example being Mexican trying to apply to other countries. They are all almost all of them trying to get you to the country where they at and that's not always feasible. But Mexico there's still some of these. So a lot of people from Latin America applying. So the talent pool is huge. So I know for sure like for two roles, one was uh gotten by a an Argentinian and another by a Colombian. So that also makes it uh really hard. A couple of those roles didn't open which was also interesting to like later talking with the colleagues that just recommended me there. It's like you know the company's also struggling and then during the process they realize they need to just don't don't open roles. maybe they're not laying off, but then they're freezing hiring. Uh so interesting uh um I don't know findings or insights there of like not really pushing towards these uh goals like it was not something that I look for. I still got I think at some point excited about all of this and then also going through like oh the heartbreak of like uh maybe didn't happen for a reason. Um I I empathize now a lot with my mentees that come and they just say like the same thing happening to them over and over for a year. It's definitely hard also on your motivation and your worth. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you get rejected once like that, most people can handle that two, three times. But like getting to the final round seven times and then not getting the role and getting your hopes up and your excitement and you've put in like there's the sunk cost fallacy where you've put in time, energy, and now you're you're you're talking about this in a very calm and rationalized manner where you've sort of looked at why this might be happening. But at that point, like how do you not let this get personal? How do you what did you do or or were you able to not make it personal? Um, I think that maybe a little part of me was making it very personal, but I think that there's also something else that I haven't touched on and is that I was also being approached to do consulting projects and those they were closing. I was like this uh I don't know it was like very very amazing for me but it was like really flourishing. uh started having a lot of projects for mostly research which is interesting. Uh I really love doing research and a lot of like startups or small companies that they don't have an internal team to do this. They they needed this and then also like some big companies as well like some banks. >> So hold on. So when you say I was approached to consulting what does that mean? Were people reaching out to you on LinkedIn or sending you filling out the form on your website for a new project? Was like what was happening specifically? >> Yes. So I I mean the the very first ones they were acquaintances that had me on WhatsApp. So they just wrote to me on WhatsApp like, "Hey, I just saw that you were laid off. What are you doing? Uh do you want to help me with this project?" And then I just jumped into you know like pitching the project and getting the project and doing the whole project. But eventually I think that uh over the months maybe like by the six month uh I was also working on being more visible and just sharing like oh I'm doing this workshop or I'm teaching here or just sharing more things on LinkedIn. So then I started to get more messages on LinkedIn as well. But you told me uh before that when you're not running workshops, you are sort of more introverted. How did that how did you manage to do that? Because a lot of people and I totally understand sort of don't want to I don't know sell themselves, be out there, promote their work like they're we're as a design community, we're often quite humble and we don't like to brag. Um >> yeah. How did you find emotes, Nar? >> Ah, this is such a great topic because I also think that um when you are either building a business or just trying to to get to some place, you don't get the privilege of being silent. You need to really brag uh so so to speak. And it it was like a big shift inside of me because uh several years ago and this is 2016 to 2020 I had an educational company. It was called Service Design Mexico. It's probably why a lot of people know me on the service design world. And during that period I was really involved in social media. So I used to post a lot about this everywhere. I had a on on LinkedIn, on Twitter, on Instagram. I used to like everything that you saw from that period, it was always about that. And then when I came back to corporate for this last role, for the four years that I was there, I was just sick of social media. It's like I want to be a person on social media. I don't want to be an advertisement for my work. And it got has to do as well with these questions about your identity. and like I don't want to tie myself to that. And for four years I abandoned everything and I rarely spoke about service design was just me leaving my life. I even forgot my password for for LinkedIn. Uh but then like now it's like okay I definitely cannot afford being silent. I need to be there. I need to be showing myself my thoughts, my work. So, I open an Instagram account that's designed with several eyes and started doing Instagram res, which at first was like so cringy. It was like so hard to to do and to see myself doing that. But it's it's the same as like as teaching or as facilitation as you were saying being an introverted you have to really do that several times until you start enjoying it and and lose I also get very nervous like for example giving a talk uh I used to like sweat a lot and my stomach will get upset and after doing a lot of that it's like okay no I'm I think I'm comfortable like being here for example in this podcast I think I'm comfortable that has to do with exposure for sure like putting yourself there like doing these reals and I'm not saying everyone has to do this there's so many platforms and ways like if you want to write there's substack or if doing a newsletter doing whatever there's a lot of ways to get yourself out there and be visible but for me it was definitely like pushing myself to be there and then realizing that there's definitely fruits to gather from doing that effort >> now and when you share that you were basically off social media for 4 years and then you figured out or said to yourself, I can't afford sort of not to be visible. What what made what changed? What clicked? Like did you read a book? Was there an experience or because that's a big shift. >> Yeah, there's actually a book. It's called Stop Being Humble. Um I I read it a while ago and I think I don't know if it clicked until this point, but I don't know like for me it's like I need to pay rent. I need to do something uh to get money. Um the I I had savings but they're not going to last forever. So while I was exploring like what what will I do all of these passions that I have, all of the things that I want to explore, let me just start getting out there and just be there. I think probably that was like my my biggest motivation was like I need to make some money. >> Sure. Yeah. And and I feel that there is such a stigma around that, but like we should be unapologetic about that. And if you're like if you're earning money by helping people honestly helping to get them to where they need to be, for example, by teaching or by being a mentor, like you're doing something hopefully good for the world and people are paying you for that. Good for you. Like that's a win-win. And I feel that that's like a difficult conversation we often have in our uh community. And again, there's still a stigma around that. Um was there anything else you wanted to add about this otherwise I'll have a different ex thing that I want to explore with you? Yeah, I mean something also related to this is that while I was doing all of this, I think I was doing consulting. So consulting just came out naturally to me and then I also wanted to explore mentoring. So I just started like posting like hey I have these mentoring sessions if you want to come. I did not expect a response honestly like for a year now. It's more than a year now since I launched this. I had 90 people come to my sessions. So that's around seven per month was really really really interesting and eye opening. And this definitely has to do with the same situation like designers getting laid off, designers unhappy with their current job and trying to find something else. they all wanted to just take a look at for me to take a look at their portfolio or their their CV and uh also several universities and educational companies reach out for me to teach there. Uh and then just going back to doing community events also we have the the service design network chapter in Montter Mexico City. So definitely I could say like this super um busy time for me. Uh but also like interesting because in paper I will say I don't have a job. So I don't I don't I don't have this thing that I used to value so much like this huge role on a company and yet I'm doing so much things and meeting so much people and just being so happy about it. M and when you when you talk to these uh 90 folks uh which some of them are maybe struggling to keep their job or have already lost their job and they are feeling depleted or sort of lost their sense of contribution of value. um somehow you managed to I'm looking for the right words but lift yourself up or find a sort of positive narrative around that. Do you also see a difference between the people who are maybe able to quicker get back on the feet and those who sort of need more time? like is can you can you identify some I don't know character threads or signals? >> I'm not sure if there's a character trait. I think that it's more of how how I will say this is something that I've seen like how passionate are you really about what you're doing? because I think that there's a lot of people that are very unhappy right now at their jobs. And I'm not going to say that the companies are not to blame. I know that there's in Mexico for for sure. I don't know in other places like uh very toxic environments, very hard to sell the value of design. I think this is making it like harder and harder for designers to believe in design and to to do something about it. And I think also the fear h this fear of losing your income of and if you have family, if you have people to care for all of these compounds and makes it like very hard for designers to be these people that the they need to be and the companies need them to be of being someone that pushes back, that stands up for what what the user needs for um just, you know, like making sure we are not just building stuff that someone ups tell you tells you to do and how can we like be sure that you want to stay there because probably changing companies is not going to change like probably all of the companies are on the same situation right now so I think that's uh to me it's something that it's been interesting on this process is like if you really love design, you need to stop fearing, stop being on this mindset of being afraid and start doing your job like your actual job of of raising your hand, of pushing to do research, of uh doing the things that we should be doing properly. Uh and if not, then really think about what you want to be doing. Uh maybe it's not design, but that's fine. also like I think there's a lot of transferable skills from service designers that can be applied to other things and and this is something that I've seen like becoming entrepreneurs uh going to art uh doing different things like uh I was telling you before this like even like some people have open taco shops so it's like there's stuff that you can do that comes from being a good designer that can be transferred to something else that might also be your passion and it's not within the constraints of like current corporate culture and you might be enjoying that as well. as as we're listening to this, there are there are really tough subjects because how do we know that we're passionate enough and how do we know that um we should say goodbye to this company and open a taco shop or if we should push further for change within this environment? Like how would you respond to that? Like how do how do how do I know if I'm passionate enough about design? I don't know if there's just a single way to know if you're passionate. I know that if you're like really burned out and and unhappy with the situation, you might uh lose faith in design doesn't really mean that you're not passionate. Uh but also I think that something that has helped me and other people that I've spoken with about this topic is maybe trying to connect with whatever you were feeling when you were a child and you were thinking like what do I want I want to do when I grow up. There's probably some uh clues there of like what types of work or things do you enjoy the most? Is it like talking with people? Is it building things? Is it thinking about stuff? Like what are the essence? It's not like you're going to be a veterinarian, but it's like uh what about that? Uh do you think it's the essence of this and how can it be transferred to current professions and maybe there's something else there that is not exactly doing design but could be similar and you can also enjoy that >> we might be stuck in some limiting beliefs thinking that this is the box that we need to be in because I don't know we did the education or our surrounding is expecting it from us or we want this to actually succeed while if we let go and sort of what happens then we we open the box we start exploring again we can still use a lot of the skills and qualities that we have but in areas that we wouldn't call design like a taco shop is that what you're saying >> yeah I think that just breaking probably your idea of of success also like I think depending on like your environment if you grew up also in a family that was just pushing for certain type of success as well that can have a huge impact in why a lot of people are afraid of also leaving uh for example a highpaying job in the corporate world. Um sometimes it's about the title, sometimes it's about the money. Um, I think that's also something you need to break up a little bit. >> So, did did that change for you? Did your notion of success change when you look back for 3 years compared to now? >> Definitely, but it's still also a process. It's not something that I will say like, oh, I'm completely cured of my ideas of what success looks like. I mean for example just being independent definitely shows up as having very variable income and that can be very scary for a lot of people um managing through that. Uh but at the same time you get so much of other things like in my case for example freedom with my time being able to do other things to enjoy more of my family and other friends and life. So it's just reformulating what what do you gain from something and if you are fine with losing something and how big will it be to lose something? So I don't think it's as scary for me now to say like what if I never go back to having like this high job or high high role uh I never got to be a BP. Will it really suck? Will it really matter if I never get to there if I if like the market was telling me like there's there's something here about being independent and like so many opportunities open opening up. So I don't know this it's not probably not the worst thing that could happen. >> And do you see that people are having this conversation with themselves enough and defining what success looks like and why that is important to them? >> Not enough. I think that the conversation is probably around like all of this disruption with AI and the roles. Like a lot of people I know that they were studying for example graphic design still and they just came out of college and it's like okay now I can just do a lot of stuff with these tools and also my clients will be doing all of these. So a lot of concern of like these roles are changing. You go into LinkedIn and you see all of these roles with new names that you've never heard of related to AI. So there's a lot of that but just looking beyond these uh grounds of like corporate world and all of the roles opening there's other possibilities and I don't think that we're pushing beyond what we see just as open roles >> like could you give some examples where where are where aren't we pushing enough? Yeah. I mean just looking at for example like this taco shop situation I know a lot of um friends or or close people they are like you know what I actually never want to go back to corporate. I was reading to this story of a person that just became a butcher. It's like so different to what they were expecting. Or even people like moving to the countryside or to the beaches and raising uh animals or having a farm, you know, that that probably wouldn't sound as something you will be doing if you were a designer, but there's also success there if you apply your uh all of your skills. So, I don't know like those those things are not on LinkedIn that you're not going to get to that those places if you just look for open roles. >> But what if we really really want to succeed as a service design professional? What if we sort of say my vision of success is to help organizations design and deliver more humane services. for that. I think that there's so many things that that go in there. I think that for designers it thinking about designers that got layoffs or thinking about designers that want to move into service design if they are not there yet or want to change companies as well. Something that I say is that you need to be intentional about what you want because I see like this mistake of people just applying to everything but they never reflected on for example what industry do you want to be? Um what type of company is it a startup? Is it a familyowned? Is it really big international company? Um exactly what do you want to do there as well? if you want to become a manager or you want to be an IC. Uh are you more inclined to to research or to facilitation or to futures design like really really understanding where you're at? what do you want to do and being intentional and then also working on building the new skills that you see. I I've been tracking also a lot of these open roles. Um see like what are they looking for? I know that roles in Mexico are not asking for the same things as roles in Europe. Uh for example, I've seen here a lot of behavioral design. So is is if this is not something that you've worked on and you see this pattern like a lot of companies are looking for that then you have to work on building or strengthening those skills um probably while you are at your current role because they're going to ask like show us a project or show us how how did you do this uh take courses or learn more about this. So I think uh if you're really passionate and you love this, you need to to evolve with the what the market is also asking for these roles. >> Yeah, I I like the word evolving. Uh that sounds good. Uh and you said you have to be intentional. It's sort of a it feels almost like a I don't know if it's a paradox, but at at some point you might feel so hopeless that you just apply to anything and everything because you feel that you don't have the position to be picky, for example, and you just need to find a job and you'll apply to anything that remotely relates. But what you're saying is that if you are more intentional, actually lending something might not just something, not just lending something, but something that actually works for you increases your chances instead of sort of trying everything and every anything and everything. >> Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm a probably a little bit esoteric thinking. means like not the same as manifestation. I'm not going to get there. But if you really write what you want and you look for what's open uh that fits this like um I don't know like if you want really want to work in healthcare for example because it's an industry that really calls for on your purpose then don't apply to fintech or other things like really look for the companies that you would love to work see what they do the type of people that work there, what are their skills, even talk with these people. Some some people are really open like uh knock on their door, not to ask for a job, but just to interview them and to see like what will be really valuable for this company and be be intentional on building upon that. What I'm also hearing throughout your story, and you haven't made this explicit yet, so I just want to validate if this is true, you don't have to find the perfect job right away. You can see uh you can think about stepping stones. And if you find a position that sort of has 20% of what you're looking for, that doesn't mean that that's the end goal and that you'll ever forever and ever be here. um use that 20% and then figure out what the next step is. Right? I can also imagine that that's something that limits a lot of folks out there of actually taking the step because this isn't the perfect role. So >> I'm not going the industry doesn't match with what I'm passionate about like how do you feel how do you think about this? This is so true and also I will connect it with what they feel about the title because I I know a lot of designers for example they are senior and they want to get maybe a principal role or or or remain senior but they they maybe come from a smaller company or they've been senior like really fast and they don't have a lot of experience and they want to be there but then they want to apply to I don't know like jobs in Silicon Valley or jobs in like very fastpaced environments that's not going to transfer like you're not going to be senior there. Uh don't be afraid of losing that title. But getting your feet on these companies that you really love and that you connect with there, you will grow inside. I think that that's something that really scares a lot of people and then they don't take a job just because it's not exactly the title that they were expecting. >> Yeah. It feels like taking a step back while sometimes taking a step back is actually a step in the right direction. >> Yeah. Now if you look into the future and sort of project um and listening to everybody who you've spoken to where do you feel this is a very broad question but where do you feel design is heading and like yeah no let let me pause there where do you feel design is heading? Ah, okay. You know, while I'm also looking for like through LinkedIn, and this is not because I'm applying to any job like because I already decided I'm going to be an entrepreneur for a while, but I still do this for my mentees and for my students. I am constantly looking at LinkedIn and trying to to identify signals of what will happen with all of these. It's very easy to just get stuck on this narrative of you know all of the companies are laying off uh designers and researchers and all of these which is true um but I've also seen a couple of things that made me hopeful and it's like there's something there and the first one is that I saw from lovable they are hiring a UX researcher it's the first one for this role and they are just at 200 or something uh employees on this company. It's very for me it was very interesting to see how for a very small company but also like this uh hot uh company in AI they are looking for a researcher because they are not thinking that AI will tell them what to do next. they are probably saying like oh okay we need to innovate and see what's going to be next for our company and that's going to be a researcher that's going to help us for me but that was amazing to see and then also I saw this role they are all in Sweden for some reason something happening there hope that becomes a trend on the rest of the world but for H&M uh so also interesting like huge uh fashion retailer they are hiring for a design future So they are also like trying to see if the methodologies that designers have could help them uh figure out how to deal with and they were saying on on this job posting like dealing with sustainability issues like uh huge demand and globalization and all of the like very big questions that companies have maybe designers could help them solve this. I was really excited to see this and I hope that's a direction that other companies at some point they will realize like you know what we actually do need designers to talk with people and to realize like what we can do instead of just asking Chad GPT to tell us what's next. >> Yeah, it's good that you sort of highlight this. I um I I like the strategy of actually applying to some of those roles. Um I'm seeing on the back end uh what's happening with job positions because we're indexing service design jobs for the last five six years and yes there are layoffs for sure. Uh I know a lot of people who have been affected by this but I'm also seeing like new companies posting job listings that companies haven't posted before. So yes, some companies are firing design professionals, but there are new companies looking into hiring their first, second, third service design professionals. I would I wouldn't like it's it's very easy if you go to LinkedIn and sort of look at all those messages to be doom and gloom about the state of design. Um, but like if you sort of dig underneath it, something else in a different place seems to be emerging, growing, bubbling, and it's not as visible yet, but um, some something's happening for sure. Yeah. Now, um, we like to sort of wrap these conversations up with better questions than we started with. Answers are easy, good questions are hard. So, what's something that you would like to ask us? Something that we should think about when we're walking the dog, taking a shower. Uh, what is a valuable question? >> I think that good good questions have to do with uh what are you really good at? um like the essence of this and how can this be transferred to to skills that companies might like? Um and also what is what is your purest idea of success? like how how will you really if you look back at at your life after it's done like what will make you proud and if it's like landing the highest role or landing getting the highest salary that's fine but just to to really make time to to to think about that and if it's something else uh how can you get there like how can you plan and and identify scenarios of maybe it's not just one one path to get there. Maybe there's different ways to get there. So, how can you uh plan for different scenarios and getting there? >> Calibrating our internal compass. That is the thing that sort of >> emerged uh with me. Awesome. Now, you are more active again on social media. So, if people want to learn more about your work, the stuff that you do, who knows, maybe even hire you for a research project, where should they go? What's the best place to find you? >> Yeah, so I'm in a couple of places. You can find me just as Gabriella Selenas on LinkedIn. Um, I have uh my Instagram platform where I share these reals that I was talking about. Uh, that's design with 11 eyes. >> Why 11? It was actually just the the the one that was open, but you know that that the actual branding for it is five eyes. And for me, it was like a personal exploration of all of the things that I value as design, so research, service design, strategic design. Uh it's so to me it's like expanding the idea or the definition of design to fit all of these uh ideas. But on Instagram, it's just that the one that was available. So there's actually nothing with the other eyes except for design with one eye which is for the Instagram design team and other the others are abandoned. [laughter] But yeah, so I'm there and then I'm also working on my own startup as hope to launch soon. It's called Hybrid Personas. You can also find it on LinkedIn and on Instagram. And it's like a repository of user personas enhanced by AI with actual research. So it's not synthetic users. >> We'll make sure to add all the links in their design with 11 eyes. >> Something else, Mark. Sorry, just to say like probably if you follow me on any of these, you might see a lot of posts in Spanish, but I also tend to have subtitles. So I hope for the more uh international folks they might not mind of having like the spanglish uh context. >> Nice. Good to know. No, I've I've watched some of the reels and there are good to follow with with the subtitles. So for sure check them out. Nice. Gabriella, thanks for giving us a little bit of hope and sort of u uh perspective. I think that's the word I was looking for. Um, we need that right now, especially right now. So, u, thanks, thanks for coming on, sharing your journey and, uh, yeah, being here. >> No, thank you, Mark. >> Before you head off, I want to leave you with one thing that is still sitting with me. Near the end, Gabriella asked this question. What's your purest idea of success? And I think most of us have never actually sat with it. At best, we often just inherit a definition, the title, the salary, the prestige, and then we wonder why a layoff feels like it has broken us. Her other reminder stuck too. So often it's not about you or your talent. [music] As we've heard, roles get frozen, teams get cut, the whole market shifts. Taking it personally is almost always the wrong read. So, here's my takeaway. Run the scenarios for your career the way you'd run them for a client and get honest about what success looks like for you before somebody else decides it for you. Huge thanks to Gabriella for being so open about all of this. If you've enjoyed today's conversation, you can do me one big favor. Click the like button in this video and leave a short comment if you haven't done so already. Not to feed the algorithm, but to let me know whether or not we are on the right track by addressing topics like this. Finally, [music] thanks for hanging out with me today. I know you have a million things you could be doing, so I appreciate you spending your time here. I am Mark Fontine and I'll see you in the next one. Take care.