When Feminism Stopped Being About Women - Freya India

Is Gen Z in a mental health crisis? Yes. Yeah. Um basically since the early 2010s, our mental health is just tanked. Um especially for girls. So, we started to see these spikes in anxiety and depression, things like eating disorders. Um but also rising self-harm and suicide. So, for example, in the US between 2012 and 2019, the suicide rate for white middle-aged men increased by 3%. But for girls aged between 12 and 14, it increased by 138%. And the the statistics on self-harm are equally as horrific. So, something happened around 2012 that is particularly affecting girls, but uh as a whole it was affecting the entirety of Gen Z. How much of this is laid at the feet of social media, do you think? Well, I would say a lot, but obviously there's, you know, it's debatable. So, some studies show like a negligible impact of social media, others show that it's terrible. Um but the thing is with those is some of the studies kind of lump in screen time with social media. So, they'll say like, you know, screen time is bad for you, but that could be texting friends, that could be scrolling through Instagram. So, they're kind of unreliable, but I think the most compelling bit of evidence is the timeline. So, mental health started to decline in the early 2010s. The iPhone came out in 2007, Instagram came out in 2010, editing apps started to come out around 2013. Um and also the fact that it's particularly affecting girls. We know that girls spend a lot more time on social media. All the other explanations don't really seem to add up when it comes to why it would be girls. So, things like people say the housing ladder or the economy or the climate crisis and none of them quite fit that explanation apart from social media for me, anyway. Yeah, why is it that women would be particularly concerned about the housing crisis or about the future temperature or the amount of carbon in the atmosphere? What is it that's causing, beyond just the excessive use of social media, what's the What's the type of use of social media that's causing this uh disparate effect on girls? Yeah, well, I think there's there's different aspects to it. So, there's how girls are using social media. So, things like obviously social comparison, comparing yourself to everybody, and comparing your productivity and your looks and your lifestyle to everyone all the time, which is terrible for mental health. So, there's that, but then there's also how social media enables companies to have close access to girls. So, the targeted advertising, um and the ability to monitor them, to collect data, and to sell that data to platforms who then bombard them with advertisements. Um so, I think a big part of this is the industries that are now able to follow girls around and kind of inundate them. It's an onslaught of advertising, and it's, you know, specific to that young girl's insecurities or vulnerabilities. So, you know, if a girl is anxious about how she looks, she'll get bombarded with beauty companies who are trying to sell her fixes to her specific worries. So, it's kind of both at the same time. It's how they're spending their time on social media, but also how companies are utilizing that to exploit them for profit. Yeah, dig into that. What what are the companies that are targeting, monetizing mental distress of girls online? How are they doing this? So, the the way I would phrase it is I would like firstly say that, you know, to have some like adolescent angst and turmoil when you're young is normal, especially for like adolescent girls. So, we know that adolescent girls are more anxious, more risk-averse, more prone to perfectionism than boys of the same age. So, I think all of that's pretty normal and I think every woman would say she's been through, you know, body image issues or whatever. But, I think what's happening now is companies are able to exploit those vulnerabilities and and target them. So, for example, I would say it's completely normal for a girl to worry about how she looks. You know, everyone will experience that. But, it's not normal to have to deal with that in a world of Instagram influencers and Tik Tok filters and editing apps. The same time, it's probably normal to worry about your feelings, to feel a bit anxious, but now girls are having to contend with that in a world of therapy culture and ads for ADHD medication and quizzes saying like you might be autistic. Um and other things as well, like you know, insecurities in relationships, jealousy, paranoia. I think that's all normal when you're young. But, dealing with that in a world of dating apps and hookup culture and online porn, it becomes unmanageable. So, I think what's happening is those all kinds of industries, so the beauty industry, what I would call the therapy industry, the pharmaceutical industry, social media companies, are all going after these age-old feelings and kind of ramping them up to a degree that I think the average girl can't cope with. Yeah, it's very interesting. Uh you know, online therapy companies in some ways and I'm I'm a huge proponent of therapy. I'm using it myself in Austin, in-person talk therapy. And I never thought about the dangers of having immediate 24/7 access over the internet to somebody that What what what is the problem with that? Shouldn't people be able to talk about their feelings with someone who's a qualified professional at all times? Why is that Why is there a danger behind that? Yeah, well, so that's the thing now. It's called unlimited messaging therapy. So, it's what most of these platforms are like BetterHelp, Talkspace, that's what they're advertising. Um and the way they phrase it, so for example, Talkspace will say, you know, "Talking to a therapist is like texting with a trusted friend." Or something. BetterHelp will say, you know, pay an influencer to say, "Oh, you know, it's like talking to a bestie." And that the problem with There's a couple of problems with that. The first is that, you know, being able to message a therapist 24/7 from your room means that you're not developing resilience to deal with things. So, if you're socially anxious, you're still in your room, you're still on your phone. Um and, you know, if you're struggling with something, if you feel an uncomfortable emotion, you're able to just get that instant gratification and be soothed. Which is the worst thing for anxiety. Um So, so that's bad, but then it's also I feel like these companies push this kind of therapy culture. Which is this this kind of idea that you can have perfect mental health. So, you can any negative emotion you feel is diagnosable and solvable through their service. And I think that puts pressure on Gen Z. I think, you know, there's pressure from social media companies to have this perfect life. There's pressure from beauty companies to have a perfect face. Then you have pressure from therapy companies to have like this perfect soul that never experiences negative emotions. Like if you look at the advertising, the advertising is like, "If you If you ever feel worried, if you ever have anxiety, you know, connect with a therapist now." Which, you know, it's it's so bad for resilience, but it's also so obvious why they're doing that. Because if you can convince a generation that, you know, they can if they pay enough, they can remove those negative emotions, then there's nothing more profitable than that. Yeah, you've said uh it's the marketization and medicalization of normal distress, a cultural emphasis on treating every emotion we feel as diagnosable and solvable with consumption is doing so much psychological damage. Yeah. So, I think, you know, two things can be true. There can be a mental health crisis where there's girls that severely mentally ill, but there can also be this growing population of girls who are just anxious and stressed, and they're being convinced to see their behavior in ways that suit these therapy companies and these drug companies. And I think very often, ironically, it makes them feel mentally ill. What are hot girl pills? Um so, hot girl pills are SSRIs or antidepressants. Um it's a way that Gen Z girls seem to describe their antidepressants on TikTok. There's also silly girl pills. Um there's also all kinds of like mental health merchandise with pills on them. There's Prozac pillows, there's antidepressant phone cases. I could go on. There's a common phrase now like hot girls take Lexapro, uh sexy girls take sertraline, all kinds of stuff like that. So, not only is there kind of the normalization of these mental health diagnosis, but the absolute glamorization of them now. How much of this is talked about in person, do you think? Because obviously on the internet you select for a very particular type of communication, a very particular type of person. Some insane percentage of people on Twitter just lurk and never tweet or essentially never tweet, you know, Mhm. 90% of the content is created by 3% of the users, something along those lines. Um I wonder what the in-person discussions have online discussions about SSRIs and mental health and hot girls have IBS or whatever the new trend is. Mhm. Is that showing up IRL as well? Well, the thing is so sometimes I get criticism where people will say, "Oh, you know, this is you're you're taking Tik Toks or you're talking about what's on Twitter." But it's like Gen Z in the UK is spending 10.6 hours a day on screens. I think uh that is the average. Girls So, there was a new um study recently saying Gen Z is spending 2 hours a day on Tik Tok alone. Um girls are making up the majority of that. So, 57% of Tik Tok users are female. Um I think a third are under 14. And so, when people say, "Oh, you know, this is just a social media thing. I don't see this in real life." It's like this is real life. For a lot of young people, this is the majority of their day. This is what's forming their assumptions about themselves and the world, you know. That distinction has gone. Um and so, I think I don't hear it as much in real life, but you know, I do think if you took a 12-year-old's day and you took, you know, the time she's spending talking in real life to friends and then the amount of time she's passively scrolling through her Instagram and Tik Tok, I think those trends really matter and shape her world view. We were in Dubai for 3 years ago and escaping lockdown and um we were in Mr. Miyagi's, just a like famous popular bar on the marina. And George, who's been on the show, was talking to a 22-year-old, 23-year-old girl that lives in Dubai and didn't have much to do and I can't I can't remember what her job was or maybe she was in school or something and he said, "Oh, can I just have a look at your screen time?" So, went in and she didn't even know I don't think she was aware of of that there was a something tracking and that day she'd spent 8 hours on Tik Tok. That one day. She'd spent 8 hours on Tik Tok. 8 hours in a single day on Tik Tok. Yeah. So, that's real life then. But that yeah, it's it's a full-time job. It's probably more than the amount of sleep that she'd gotten. Uh which is wild and I think that you're right, you know, if during a period of your life that's so super formative, so much of the things that you're exposed to are through the internet, talking about that's just what you see online is a presumption from people who assume that there is a life outside of being online. Yeah. Like it's a misunderstanding of how the day is portioned out between keyboard and non-keyboard. I I think that about a lot of things. Like I think it about say like beauty trends. Some people will be like, "Oh, I I don't understand why girls are having this plastic women are having this plastic surgery and they look so weird in real life." And it's like they don't they're not doing it for real life. They're doing it for social media very often and for how they look on camera. And so I think there's a lot of trends that people find confusing about Gen Z whereas if you start to think actually there's no distinction between social media and the real world anymore, they start to make a bit more sense. Yes, if it's an online first existence, Yeah. everything kind of opens up from that. There is no distinction between what you're seeing on the internet or maybe even the internet is more true than the real world. But this is this is where No, I don't need to listen to mom and dad. No, I don't need to listen to what's happening on the news. No, I don't need to listen to the whatever. This is my source. This is my oracle and my source of of insight about how I should behave, about how other people behave. I had this idea a while ago. I've not I've never talked about this before actually cuz I thought it'd get me into much [ __ ] But I will at some point. Recursive red pill learning. So, one of the problems with some areas of the manosphere is that a lot of the guys go to this type of content as a safe haven from having to interact with things in the real world. And monk mode, I've had super amounts of success with monk mode in my own life. I'm I'm I'm big into that. But done to the extreme, it can end up if all of your information comes from other people within your echo chamber, it skews your opinion of what's happening in the real world. And this recursive red pill learning thing was the most egregious stories on the internet are the ones that get the most exposure because they're the most outlandish and crazy. Then that crazy misrepresentative unrepresentative story gets used as a signal of what actually happens in the real world by everybody else. Then that forms the base of their beliefs and then that gets re-spun up into the sort of things that they're looking for. And you get this recursive sort of self-learning AI [ __ ] chat GPT from hell. But is always looking for the most caricatured most outlandish stories. Yeah. Yeah, well, there's a similar thing that I've written about. So, I called it like a the the algorithmic conveyor belt that children are on. Which is basically to say that every child is on their own conveyor belt on social media depending on whatever say interest or insecurity or vulnerability they have. And whatever it is, they will get pushed to the extreme end point of that. So, for example, if you're worried about your looks, you'll start with makeup tutorials, which will then gradually become uh cosmetic surgeries, which will then become, you know, Botox near you on TikTok ads. Same with things like uh gender identity. You might start questioning that, and then you see videos saying, "Oh, you know, being tired is a symptom of gender dysphoria" or something. And then you see which is a real TikTok I've seen. And then you see one which is like glamorizing the surgery. When another child might be worrying about their mental health, and then they go on the conveyor belt and end up taking medication for um you know, something that they don't actually have a diagnosis for. And the the theory of it is, you know, like so many things in Gen Z feel really extreme, like the way we talk about mental health, the way we talk about sexuality, the way we talk about politics. Everything's supposed to be very extreme, and I think that's because each child is getting pushed to the extreme of whatever they're interested in. And that explains, you know, when some parents say, "Oh, you know, my child's fine. They're not looking at um you know, gender identity stuff. They'd never get into this mental health space." And it's like, "No, they're on their own path." And whatever it is, the algorithm will learn more about them, and the content will get more extreme to boost engagement. It's this balance between normalizing and glamorizing mental health issues, I think. You know, cuz how old are you? 24. Okay. So, you must be the top end You must be the older end of Gen Z, right? Bridging straddling that and millennial. Um there was a period, I think it probably about 5 years ago or so, uh what it it's okay to talk? That was the mental health campaign in the UK, do you remember? Like, always had a problem with that. Mental health is something I'm so I'm super passionate about because it was always a difficulty for me in my 20s. And I hated that it's okay to talk thing because I understood what it was trying to do was say, we must literally normalize the uh, topic of mental health as something which is discussed by typical people from friends to friends. But, I was like, it's not just like and what? Like, and what after that? What else needs to be done? I think we have moved way beyond normalizing the conversation about mental health. Now, there's certain subgroups Yeah. My dad My dad, for instance, I imagine that him and his friends, you know, in their 60s probably could do with a little bit more of a push and a poke to do that. They had the men's sheds initiative in Australia, which was very good at this, men talking shoulder to shoulder, whereas women are talking face-to-face. But, it's almost like the it's like a badge of honor or a rite of passage for certain subgroups, especially in Gen Z to talk at the hot girls have IBS. Like, your gut problems uh, something that you should be wearing front and center, you know, like at IBS hottie or whatever on TikTok probably exists. You know, it And this links in, I suppose, to something else that you've spoken about and I had a huge conversation with Mary Harrington about which is the danger of showing the entirety of your life on the internet. What's your perspective on that? Yeah, well, I feel that especially with mental health issues. Like, the amount of that you said, the amount of campaigns saying, we need to open up, we need to talk. You need to share your problems, share them on social media. So, there's influencers who start hashtags like there's this guy, Dr. Alex George. He was on Love Island. Um, I remember Dr. Alex. Yeah. So, he started a campaign called Post Your Pill, which is to encourage young fans to post their mental health medication and talk about it. And he's kind of urging them, you know, please join in because you need to fight the stigma. You need to join part of the conversation. And firstly, I don't think we should be telling young people that it's their duty or it's kind of you know, they should be part of fighting the stigma like noble for you to post about your pharmaceutical intervention that may have predatorily been pushed on you by an Instagram ad and a TikTok algorithm that showed that you didn't actually need the thing that you thought you needed. Yeah. What a [ __ ] idiot. Yeah, well, I'm thinking like surely I don't I don't know if he must have good intent. He must think that this Wasn't he he's the government's advi- What was he? What is he? He's the like mental health advisor or something. He's a [ __ ] tit, that's what he is. Well, this campaign is just to me, I find it so irresponsible because you know, his fans are like probably pre-teens and teens. And if you go on the hashtag, they're all kind of listing out their mental health problems, sharing their pills. And I'm thinking also at that age, you you don't know where you're going to be in say 5, 10 years time. You might not want that out there. You know, once you post something, it especially on TikTok, it can stay there. And I think there's a lot of young people now who think it's kind of you know, it's a good it's noble and it's brave to post their mental health problems. But what if you get over your social anxiety and in 5 years you want people to see you as confident, but you made it your whole brand and you posted it all over TikTok? You know, I just think that a lot of people will grow up and realize that maybe this is not the place to be sharing it and that these influencers were very irresponsible to be pushing this on young people, and to be kind of framing it as activism, like it's their duty. This desire of everybody on the internet to have a cause to fight for, to be some white knight, flaming sword, performative empathy, toxic compassion person is so perverse because it's it's causing people to find issues where there are none so that they can be the paragon that's fighting the power, you know, that that's speak speaking truth forward. I am here for you, people who don't feel like their SSRI medication is sufficiently public. Like, who's got that problem? Who's got that I'm looking at like antidepressant prescriptions. Like, for example, I think it's one in three teenagers in the UK have been prescribed antidepressants. Um, and I'm pretty sure between something like between 2015 and 2021, the number of antidepressant prescriptions for children aged 4 to 12 has increased by over 40%. So, these are like more in the US as well. Yeah, yeah, way more. Um And so, and you've got like kids putting their mental health medication and diagnosis in their Twitter bios. It's not Young, you know, young people putting them on their Tinder profiles. Like, you can't say it's stigma anymore. That's the wrong context. Yeah. Especially for things like anxiety and and depression, autism, ADHD. You know, I'm sure there's areas of it that are stigmatized, but the way they talk about it, the way these campaigns talk about it, it's as if we're it's 10 years ago. Yeah. It's like the context is completely different now. Um Right. Yeah, but it's such a it's such an easy narrative. It's it's very simple to understand, right? We need to normalize the conversation around this. You know, it's it's the same as if if somebody has one answer to every question, that's because the demand for answers outstrips their ability to supply them. So, they just retrofit the one answer they have Yeah. to everything. All right, what about what what are the other things what this trend of people documenting their lives on the internet? What other ridiculous things have people been documenting? Well, the most ridiculous, so I wrote recently like ranted about this, but the the thing that's really getting to me recently is like the intimate personal moments. So, meaningful things that happen in your life like once or twice, never again, people are spending that time filming them and recording them for social media. Like ordinary people, I'm not just talking about influencers. I'm talking about this pressure to to capture everything and share it. So, I did like a Substack post where I was like looking through some of these TikToks. For so influencers are the worst examples, so theirs are the the most crazy, but there's like one where this woman has just given birth and um her family come in to view the baby, all holding their phones, filming as they come in the door and then looking at the child through the screen rather than at the actual child. And that's not the most dystopian thing. The most dystopian thing with the normal young people like quote tweeting this really dystopian video saying like there's nothing wrong with it. You know, they're just trying to remember the moment. And if you take yourself out and look at it, it's so dystopian. And it's just so weird that we we come up with you know, justifications for something really surreal like that. And there's that video Did you see the video of Paris on New Year's Eve? Yes, where the biggest light show were people's phone screens on the Yeah. Everyone. The people justifying that saying you know, they want to remember the fireworks. And I just think don't exist without You've traveled all the way to Paris. You're about to see the countdown. I I understand. It's It's strange because things that are really impressive are the things you want to take photos of because they're impressive, but because they're impressive, they're going to stick in your memory more. So, you don't actually need to take the photos. It's different if you're taking a selfie, like that's hard that you don't see yourself. Yeah. Or, you know, there's something special about that. I don't know. I that I really struggle with this. I had a I encountered an issue a that I realized about 2 years ago. I dissociated any sort of posting any sort of photo taking as super cringe because I thought classic influencer [ __ ] Here he is, you know, can't even go out for dinner without taking a photo of the food, but I realized that almost all of the photos I was taking weren't getting posted on social media. Yeah. They were for me. They were for me. I was sending them to my mom or I was sending them to friends or I was doing whatever. Like I just wanted that. And it wasn't big [ __ ] It was usually small things on the way. The taxi the $30 10-minute taxi ride I got in Honduras back here. I took photo of the guy's the driver's seat because he had this crazy fixed the seat obviously a little bit of a developing country in some ways. And I was like, that's [ __ ] cool. Mhm. I just wanted to remember Oh god, you remember when you were in Honduras and that guy's seat was fixed with a tennis racket. Like that's cool. Yeah. But yeah, I I just especially if there's news cameras there. There's so much footage of the things that many people take photos of like that Paris thing. If you want to remember it, there's someone with an 8K telescopic zoom that you could probably use. Yeah, that that's why that's why that one makes no sense because like there's millions of people all filming the same thing and like you said there's professional people there. But I think there's nothing wrong with documenting things and keeping them for you. It's it's the pressure to like make a moment marketable for other people while you're in the moment. So it's like you know, like I was saying, really meaningful moments like say pregnancy, finding out you're pregnant and telling your partner and filming it. I think there's something about getting the camera or knowing the camera's there that cheapens that moment and to and takes your mind away from the moment because instead you're thinking how's this coming across? How am I looking on camera? How are people going to respond to this? while you're in the moment. So it's more those things that I think are extremely dystopian because they're like people have the urge to do it when a moment is meaningful, but that's when it's the most kind of corrupt because you you only get those meaningful moments a few times in your life and you're cheapening it. Well, we don't need the Apple Vision Pro for people to live their life via a screen if that's what they're already doing. It's just a [ __ ] it's a shittier 6-in version of it. Mhm. But they're already coming in doing This is something else that I learned that um she's so funny. You know how if you were to suggest to one of the waiters while you were on holiday, "Hi, would you mind taking a photo of us, please?" Like that's the universal that universal take a photo of us, please. That's actually Yes. Yes, I only found that out recently that it's not it's like would you take a photo of us, please? Like this, pressing on the middle of the middle of your palm as opposed to the top of the finger. Dude, so crazy. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, but it's it's it's so weird because like that that woman who's given birth and the family looking at it through the screen is like she could have just FaceTimed you and you'd have the same experience like there is a woman who's literally looking at the baby smiling, not looking up or not looking. Um I think there's something to be said for like you said, remembering things through memories. Like I think there's something nostalgic about only having a memory of something. I think if you're if you've just got tens of thousands of kind of Instagram Reels and Snapchat Stories and whatever of moments you don't first of all you're not going to have time to look back at them all and feel that nostalgia. And I think the things that will actually stand out are the things that you forgot to film because you were so in the moment. You weren't even thinking about for that is now being changed. The threshold for things that are pulled into the moment so much that you forget to film them is basically zero. Yeah, and people say oh, you know, the amount of kind of tweets and stuff you see people saying oh, I went to this and I forgot to film or I forgot to take a picture and then the regret and it's like no, that's a good thing because you were living your life and for a moment you forgot. The big difference I think is are you doing it as a memory for you or are you doing it so that you can then post it on social media? Because even if it's your job, there are certain things that I think it's a good idea to keep off social media. And especially if it isn't your job, who's this for? If you're posting it online, what you're trying to do is get some [ __ ] titrated dose of whatever Kim Kardashian did. Which one of the Kardashians was it that used a surrogate and then the baby was born and immediately like handed it over to the Was Khloe? I don't really know. I don't know them. I'm bad with my job. I try hard not to know. Okay. You also said I've seen a quote from you that says, "What's totally absent from modern mental health advice is trying to be a better person." What's that mean? Yeah, I got some backlash for that. Well, what I was trying to say by that is I think, you know, Gen Z especially are bombarded with mental health advice that is always buy a product or have this service or um you know, take a pill for whatever's wrong with you. Um and I'm not talking about, you know, severely mentally ill people, but for most of Gen Z who are anxious, stressed, um having these normal adolescent feelings that are being ramped up by modern life. Um you know, you you you don't necessarily need therapy. You don't necessarily need to take a pill. What you very often need is to look at your life and think about it. You know, the first thing to think about is whether you have real human connection in your life, whether you have like a solid community. Um then if you're, you know, eating right, if you're exercising right, then things like how you're treating people, how you're maintaining your relationships. But it's so absent from mental health advice because people like are absolutely terrified now of telling young people, you know, maybe this is not a mental health diagnosis. Maybe this is something you have agency over. You just would never hear it. You would never hear it from a mental health campaign. You'd never hear it from an influencer. Mhm. They'd never say, you know, take a look at your own life. Have you done everything you can to feel good? And are you trying your best to be a good person? Um yeah, there's no way they would get away with saying it. It's very strange, you know, coming from this Joe Rogan, David Goggins, Jocko Willink, Alex Hormozi universe of everyone saying no one cares, just work harder, uh like stop complaining, just improve, like that whole sort of worldview almost feels trite and obvious and kind of in some ways like old. Uh oh, well, that, you know, that's that's that's there's nothing novel to be said with that. Um but, I guess you're forgetting about the cohort of people for whom that is a radical Yeah. assumption. Well, I think girls and young women don't hear that. Um you know, I think there's there's a lot of um obviously talk about like young men not having role models. But, I think in recent years that has changed. You know, there's there's Jordan Peterson, there's you, there's all kinds of podcasters who trying to fill that gap and speak to young men and tell them, you know, to think about discipline and think about how they're treating people and, you know, if they're the best version of themselves. But, I think there is a massive gap for young women because people are absolutely terrified to say, Yep. you know, are you being a good person? Especially to women because they think it's, you know, regressing back um to telling women what to do. But, I think, you know, young women are craving that because deep down cuz all we're hearing is everything you do is great, everything you do is empowering, everything, you know, if if if you like it, then it's good for your mental health, then go for it. You know, we're hearing that from like mainstream feminism, we're hearing it from therapy culture. And we're hearing it from all of these kind of influencers and celebrities who are our role models, like Kim Kardashian or whoever it is. You know, where is the female Jordan Peterson saying, "No, this behavior is not good. Um this is the kind of behavior that, you know, is going to be bad for your well-being and the people around you." We we just won't hear that. Who are the heroes heroines who are the heroines of Gen Z? Like what are the girls you know if you were talking about I'm aware that you say there isn't an equivalent of the of the Jordan Peterson or the Andrew Tate or the the Rogan or whatever but who is the who are the girls looking up to? Kardashians? What else? Yeah, I think pop culture figures. So I think it would if you were to ask them it would be like singers and celebrity it would be like Taylor Swift it would be like actresses they see on TV. Zendaya, Ariana Grande. Yeah. Yeah, so you know people who are aren't going to push a strong moral um value system on young women. They're going to be very vague about everything for fear of offending and for fear of lecturing. Um and I think you know everyone talks about um coddling Gen Z but I think this is a big part of it is that we're absolutely terrified to to tell girls and young women what to do. You know but you have to tell young people what to do what to aim for so that they can you know they're growing up now with absolutely no milestones for coming of age, no kind of guidance of where to go in the direction of their life. And I think it does a great you know disservice to young women to just pretend everything they do is fine. Um and I think yeah, we are actually craving some of that discipline that men are craving as well. Yeah, I have a theory that over the next 10 years the female mental health crisis will be the main story and the male body image crisis. I think that we're going to switch from crisis of femininity crisis of masculinity to crisis of femininity and crisis of female body image to crisis of male body image. Now girls are also maybe going to hold on to both of those titles I'm not sure but a male male body dysmorphia is on track to overtake female body dysmorphia within about two decades. Really? Yeah. is that caused by is that fitness kind of A good chunk of it. Um so the male the ideal male body has changed an awful lot. You know, perfect examples of this if you look at action figures. If you look at Luke Skywalker from the 70s as a you know, a kid's action figure, he's just normal dude. You look at Luke Skywalker now and he looks like he's on a very heavy course of PEDs. Um and yeah, like all of the representations physically of men are unbelievably jacked. You That's not to say I mean, look at what's happened with Barbie. Like how many um Look at the waist to hip ratio of Barbie. If Barbie was in the real world, she'd basically have no internal organs, etc. etc. There's been a a reckoning around that for women and that hasn't been for men. So it's always this flip-flop of well, men have got you know, that that this thing is something that we need to be concerned about with them and that gets forgotten for the girls and then the same thing happens for girls with what gets forgotten for men. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I think the I think a lot of the mental health advice now is is geared toward women. So it's like, you know, talk more about your problems, you know, view it in a very kind of female way. Um but I actually think that's gone so far that it's now harming women as well. You know, we're constantly saying to men, you should be opening up more about your problems. Would never ever, you know, ever dare to say to women, maybe you're opening up too much. Yeah. You know, that would be unacceptable. There was this interesting uh quote that I found from Steve Stewart-Williams, guy that wrote uh The Ape Who Understood the Universe, one of my favorite books. And he said, uh consider the claim that society encourages males to be aggressive. This is probably true in some ways. We do sometimes give boys the message that they ought to be tough and not cry. Overall though, we spend a lot more time discouraging male aggression than female. Why? Because males are more aggressive. Or consider the claim that we tell girls to be quiet and passive. Again, we probably do this sometimes. More often though, we tell boys to be quiet and passive. Why? For the same reason. Boys are louder and more disruptive. Yeah, that's true. Very interesting. I think it's um Yeah, but I think what's happening now is we we try to the more you try to do something that's going to help young women, like I think everyone's trying to be very um careful with their language and careful with how they approach these issues because they know that women don't really like that direct discipline the same amount that boys and men do. They don't We don't respond to it quite the same. I think that is true, but now we've taken it to such an extreme where we're terrified to tell women anything, you know, it's all about um what makes us happy, what our desires are. Um So, it's based on some truth, but it's just swung way too far. It's like this is coddling culture, basically. Yeah. What is it making girls more depressed or more [ __ ] do you think? Uh, both at the same time. No, I think um I think most of the narrative now is you know, social media and uh therapy culture and all of these things are making girls anxious, they're making them depressed. Um but I think a lot of things in modern life are also making girls, you know, behave worse as well. So, social media for example, we know that girls' insecurities are a lucrative market that companies go after, but I also think companies know how to draw out female vices as well. So, if you look at social media platforms, they're like perfectly set up for girls to be mean to each other, to engage in this kind of indirect forms of aggression, like reputation destruction, passive aggression, gossip. It's like perfect on social media. So, if you want to socially exclude someone, you've got like the Snapchat Snapmap, where you can have your live location, all of the friends are together, and you can see that you're not with them. Um you know, you can create group chats where you cut people out. You can If you want to be passive aggressive, you can like tweet about someone, but not mention their names, so you're just like subtly um digging them. And you know, companies play on this. Like Instagram lets you have a set of close friends, where you can exclude other people. There's apps like um NGL, which is like an anonymous messaging app. NGL? Not going to lie. So, it's like you say something like, "Not going to lie, she's really ugly." Ah. There was something called Yak Yak Yak Yak. Oh, yeah. Is that a similar thing? Yeah, that was basically the same. So, it was geo-located anonymous posting. And uh this was for a a couple of years in club promo, this was [ __ ] fire, because it meant it meant that we could all we could all talk [ __ ] about every other promoter from town, and know that everyone in town that was using Yak Yak or whatever, um would see it, but that no one could say who it came from. Uh because it by design it was anonymous. It was so funny. Did you have um Ask.fm? Was that when you were younger? No, what was Ask.fm? Oh, so that was like brutal. That was again, it's like anonymous messaging app, where you can just like people would just use it to rate other people. So you'd be like, can you give this girl a rating on like looks, personality? It's absolutely brutal. But yeah, companies are doing that because they know adolescents, teenagers, especially girls, can be absolutely brutal to each other in that way. Um so they're playing on that as well. So I I think it's it's not only how social media is making us feel, but it's like who it's encouraging us to become as well. Mhm. Do you think selfie editing is a powerful act of self-expression? Um no. Uh yeah, so that was Facetune, wasn't it? Um so it's so weird how that has changed. I mean I remember when I was younger, people used to kind of disguise the fact they were editing their photos. It was like a a shameful thing. But now it's kind of spun to uh something to be proud of. It's like self-expression. It's just like putting on makeup. Um and the companies, I don't know what came first, but now the companies are jumping on that saying you know, selfie editing is empowering and it's about um self-love. It's like about being proud of who you are and enhancing that. Like they use all kinds of language to spin it. Um I think it was Khloe Kardashian uh said like Facetune is life-changing. She also Facetuned her newborn baby as well. She Facetuned her newborn baby? Yeah, there's a picture of her holding her baby and the baby is like ridiculously airbrushed. Um Did anyone pull her up on this? Yeah, I think people did say, you know, this is a step step too far. But saying that it's a powerful female self-expression and it's true self-love to Yeah. What's hap- Talk talk me through what's happening with self-image, body image, girls sort of perspectives and perceptions of how they should look physically, facially, all the rest of it. Well, it's interesting because we we seem to be the generation that's been inundated with this kind of message of self-love and body positivity. It's like it's everywhere. But we're the generation who seem to be struggling with it the most. So, we're having we've got record rates of cosmetic surgeries among Gen Z. So, things like lip fillers, liposuction, boob jobs all going up for Gen Z. And the client's getting younger and younger. So, you're getting kind of teenagers who are So, Botox is banned in England. Teenagers are traveling to Wales to get Botox to prevent aging. So, you've got this like record rates of cosmetic surgery, record rates of body dysmorphia, eating disorders, uh facial dysmorphia. So, things like um young women going to plastic surgeons asking to look like the Snapchat filter version of themselves. Mhm. Whereas before they'd come in with like a picture of a celebrity. Um now it's them with a filter. So, despite being so loud about, you know, self-love and self-acceptance and having that kind of shoved down our throats, the opposite seems to be happening. That's so interesting. Yeah, and I mean I would put that down to social media because you know, I don't think older generations quite realize how often Gen Z, especially Gen Z women, are looking at their faces because of their phone. And because of TikTok and Instagram. Oh, it's like having a mirror with you everywhere that you go. Yeah, and it's uh you know, it's also that you're seeing a distorted version of yourself through filters and through your camera. So, when you're looking in the mirror or someone takes a photo of you, it's very different to that camera image that you're so accustomed to. With the right angle that you know, with the right lighting that you know, with the filter that you like. So it's dysmorphia. It's like I But it's selfie dysmorphia. Yeah. It's not it's it's So there's there's a couple of things here. First off being other people on the internet portray themselves and make photos and videos of themselves in a way which is misrepresentative of the way that they actually look in the real world. And again this recursive conveyor belt thing that we both separately came up with causes you to spend or to see people as their online version not their real life version. Yeah. Then this is a very unique version of it which is how you see yourself on the phone is actually different to how you are in the real world. So I imagine I mean there must be something like mirror dysmorphia or like phone dysmorphia which is wow on my phone I look so great but in the mirror I don't like myself. Well, because you're making all of these edits. And it's I mean have you seen the TikTok filters now like the beauty filters? No. They are so So like when I was younger we would have like Snapchat filters but they would kind of like lag. So they had like There was one that was like puppy ears but it kind of smoothed your skin and like chiseled your cheeks. So like all of the 13-year-old girls were using it. But if you moved it would like lag so it was obvious you were wearing a filter. But now like there's What the puppy ears weren't enough of a giveaway? Okay. Well well well what people would do is Not the puppy ears one. But there would be other ones like um you'll be makeup or you have like butterflies or something and girls would try and crop out the filter bit. Right. I see. Then companies tried to introduce seamless ones. But now there's like young women trying on these filters that give them like a perfect kind of avatar face, but it's very realistic. And if they go like this, nothing changes. So when I was younger like the fake eyelashes would be like on your hand or something. Whereas now you can do that, you can move, you can you know, speak normally. You can edit your body on FaceTune. So you can like make your waist microscopic. You can change your like bum size, whatever. works for videos as well as photos, right? And then you can film yourself walking around with a different body and the background doesn't move or wobble or anything. And so not only are girls staring at their faces for hours a day, but they're staring at a often distorted version of that. Then going to the mirror, then thinking they have a mental illness of body dysmorphia or whatever. And it's like anyone would have dysmorphia because you're not supposed to be staring at your face for this long, especially a modified version. Have you been watching this season of Love Island that's happening right now? I have not. Right. What a shame for you. What a shame. Uh so this is Love Island All-Stars which is bringing back there's at least two or three uh people from my season. Yeah. And uh that's been interesting to observe. Um remembering my season was uh uh eight years ago, eight or nine years ago. Hannah who was this uh Scouse girl. Um she purposefully went to get Bratz doll surgery. Right. heard of this? No, but I can guess. Is it Brat's Brat's face or Brat's body proportion? Face, but also body too a degree. There's a video Josh, one of the kids actually, another kid that was on my season. Wow, they really took a lot from season one. Maybe I was left out. I don't know. Um, but they he was she was walking away from him. They were just catching up or whatever as friends and she was walking away from him and he said, "Fucking hell, have you had your ass done as well?" And she went, "Yeah, I have." Uh, so you know, there's no there's very few bits. I mean, she was pretty enhanced the first time, but this broke the internet at when when the thing first came out. Someone sent it to me. And I mean, Hannah was a Playboy girl, Scouse Playboy girl. For the Americans listening, Scouse is kind of like New Jersey a little bit, I guess. It's like sort of Geordie Shore, Jersey Shore type sort of fake tan and fake lashes and and and stuff. And um, she really took it to the extreme about this. And yeah, the the internet was lit up. So, is that a BBL that she's had? She would have had a BBL. You know that I mean, she had a boob job [ __ ] eight years ago when we were on the show. She had a pretty big set of Scud missiles on her and now they're like nuclear warheads. Well, that's the thing is is I think when you get this you just morph it well when you start to get these procedures, it's almost like you get blind to how far you're taking it. Uh, and and until like she might look in the mirror and not see it as extreme. Almost certainly almost certainly does. Yeah, because it's been gradual process for her. She know she's upgraded each feature one by one. Whereas you meet her in real life and it's like jarring. Well, that was the thing that people were comparing the photo from eight years ago to the photo now, but it's the it's the question when did you get older when did you get fat or when did you get whatever? Well, one one at a time. One procedure at a time, one lip filler appointment at a time. Yeah, it's true. And then social media I think is a big part of that again cuz it's the algorithm one step at a time. So firstly you get an ad for lip fillers and then it's like oh well if you've had lip fillers you might want to even it out with a nose job and then if you get a nose job you probably want to get you know and it just goes on and on until you know there's a lot of influencers now who are coming out and dissolving fillers or reversing surgery. And they all say the same thing which is I just woke up and didn't recognize myself. And almost like did a lucky this is like Love Island podcast. Molly Mae did a a big thing with that didn't she? She sort of de-beautification herself. Yeah, she looks way better. She looks way younger. Um but she said the same thing. She just said I have no idea who that person was. Like she's like I look at that filler version and I don't recognize her. Because it happened gradually. What do you think about this trend of uh fitness chicks or just Instagram girls uploading see I've got rolls and stretch marks too. What what do you make of that? Yeah, um well I I've seen a couple of those and they're always like unflattering but flattering. So it's like the most flattering version of an unflattering photo you could get. Which I think is kind of worse than just posting a load of flattering stuff because it's like oh here's my vulnerabilities but I'm also still using good lighting and it's it's not that like repulsive. bodily humble brag. Yeah, yeah. So I think I don't know. I still see that as kind of inauthentic sometimes and and actually worse in a way because you're pretending it's your ultimate vulnerability. The goal is laudable, right? Which is look I am not perfect all the time. This is a photo of me posing and this is a photo of me not posing. James Smith, my business partner on New Tonic and Darren Cartel made a very big mess of Instagram for like they were like mercenary assassins going around and finding these girls that were doing it and then doing a parody of it themselves with them in like a girl's crop top sort of posing going crying on the fact that they've got They've got rolls and stuff, but then on the on the other side how you supposed to fight back against insane body standard imagery? If you don't do that, if you don't try and do the well, this is me in real life. This is what happens if I've had too much gluten or this is me around that time of the month or this is me when I'm not posing and I'm not lit and I don't have makeup on. Well, I think it's it's like the mental health thing. So, I think a lot of people share their mental health problems online because they think oh, you know, social media is a highlight reel and everyone's pretending to be perfect. So, I'm going to show my vulnerability. You know, a lot of influencers do that. They'll be like oh, here's a selfie of me crying, you know, I'm normal. You know, don't worry. But it's like I don't think the answer to the endless posting of perfection is then to start revealing your most vulnerable personal moment. Especially if you're a normal young girl, I think the answer is to post less in general and to consume less of this stuff. Cuz I think a lot of young people now are kind of being convinced that they need to share their vulnerability so that their whole self is on social media and it's kind of balanced. But I I don't think that, you know, if you're a preteen or a teenager, I just would not be putting my deepest vulnerabilities online. Now, you know, when you don't know yourself, you don't know how you're going to feel in the future. Um it's a similar thing. What do Gen Z girls think about guys? Um well, there's a big gap between Gen Z girls and Gen Z guys. I don't know, did you see that Financial Times? Yeah, so the Gen Z girls and Gen Z guys worldview and values definitely seem to be diverging. What do you what do you lay that at the feet of? Um a couple of things. So, most of it most of the divide in most of the countries is girls and young women shifting to the left. So, guys seem to be either staying the same or becoming slightly more conservative on things like gender roles or I think race and immigration as well. But it's young women who are like blurching rapidly to becoming more progressive. Um and so, I think to explain that to explain like the rise of liberal women, I think a big part of it is education. So, universities leaning left. But young women way more likely to go to university than men. Men are actually This is this is an age group that's for a lot of them below the age of going to university, right? True. So, well, yeah, I think this most such surveys are looking at Gen Z men and women. Right. But I think if you were to include, you know, Gen Z girls and boys, it would also be the things like social media. So, for example, if you're if you're looking at progressive um something progressive on social media, some social justice um post or something, again, the algorithm will serve you the more extreme version of that. Uh and you can end up going from kind of like a normal liberal position to the extreme left very quickly. And obviously, the same is true of right-wing content. But it's liberal teen girls who are spending five or more hours a day on social media. So it seems to be what I think is happening is girls are kind of naturally drawn to something like the social justice movement because it's very much about compassion. It's very much about lived experiences and I think, you know, young women are higher in empathy, more conformist. So we're drawn to that and then those natural tendencies are then picked up by the algorithm. And then you're spending hours a day on social media getting that confirmed and getting it more extreme. And guys are getting a different experience. And then as they grow older, going to university, getting a different experience. Guys are more likely to study STEM subjects rather than humanities, which are much less left-leaning. So it just seems to be that we're having such different experiences and it's getting to the point where our world views are completely different. Um and we're not even like inhabiting the same reality anymore. Yeah, I've got Daniel Cox, who was the dude that did the research. I've got him coming on. He was a bit of a digital ghost. I had to go through a bunch of people to to get in touch with him. Um but I can't wait for that episode. I think that's going to be so good. Um so that's exciting. Going to bring him on, have a conversation, really dig into the mechanisms of it. I'd be interested to try and find somebody else that can dig into the mechanisms more cuz obviously he knows the demographics and he's made some inferences and that article's fantastic. But um yeah, there's a bit more I want to understand why is this happening more than just what's happening. Um okay, so um Gen Z girls about guys, what do they think about relationships and dating and the importance of of that? Well, I think a big thing now that I've noticed is being is Gen Z women being risk averse around guys and around dating. So, for example, if you go on like Tik Tok dating advice, it's very kind of cynical, it's very negative. It's like, you know, if a guy approaches you, he's a predator. Or if he kind of compliments you a lot and gives you loads of gifts, he's love bombing you, he's an abuser. You know, the words like narcissism and red flags getting thrown around. Um and it's honestly everywhere. Like I saw a tweet recently that was went viral that was like, "Oh, if you if you meet someone and you have intense chemistry, that's a major red flag. Like you should leave because Why? because it's like um a trauma signal that reminds you of your caregiver who mistreated you or whatever." And it's got like thousands of likes. And it's that kind of language is so common among young women talking about dating. Which like I get, I think there are legitimate reasons to be risk averse. So, I think, you know, obviously it's much harder to date now with in after the sexual revolution with less kind of guardrails of custom and chivalry. And I do think there's reasons women are risk averse to being kind of disposed of and, you know, not having a meaningful relationship follow from meeting someone. I also think, you know, we've got um you know, very high rates of divorced parents, which, you know, plays into that risk aversion. I also think social media teaches you to be risk averse and avoid discomfort. Well, what what is the reason for the risk aversion? Is it just not wanting to ever get hurt? How much of this is just an avoidance of any discomfort? Yeah, so basically all of these things are creating this absolute terror of getting hurt. So, I think a lot of the therapy speak and the kind of feminist language is a is cloaking this deep fear of vulnerability. Um you know, I think Gen Z grew up with this kind of message that anything with risk is a threat to be avoided. You know, whether that's through social media, whether that's family structure, whether it was you know, the childhoods we had. You know, our childhoods were very much like avoid risk, you know, prioritize health and safety and regulations. And you know, simulating it all online rather than actually engaging in risk-taking behavior. And I think that plays out all the time in in Gen Z's life, but a a big, you know, part of that is relationships because they come with a high level of risk. And I I don't think some Gen Z people can kind of it's almost like we've been convinced that's not a part of life, that you can actually get away with a life that avoids risk and, you know, uncomfortable emotions. Um but you can't, and so it it's actually, you know, really tragic because it puts us on a path to miss out on really meaningful things. So, I think a lot of the kind of child-free Tik Tok stuff that everyone makes fun of and the you know, less desire among Gen Z to have children can be explained by this fear of discomfort and risk aversion. You know, there's like a deep terror of things going wrong. Um which you know, you go on like child-free Tik Tok as well. It's all about discomfort and it's all about What is that for the people that don't know? So, um people who've made the decision not to have children will post on like a dink, which is like double income, no kids. So, they'll post like their luxury lifestyles that they can afford. And then they'll post their kind of child-free days and what they get up to and everything. Um but there's also among that, there's a lot of young women especially talking about uh kind of the risks and discomfort that comes with having children and trying to warn other young women and girls not to have children. So for example, there's a girl who does a free birth control series on Tik Tok where she basically lists like every possible risk that could go wrong with pregnancy or children. To kind of say girl with a list? Well, that's another one. So then there's another one? So this is just a girl. She She does like a um helpful birth control series to remind you why you shouldn't have children. And she'll just put clips of like children screaming and throwing up and destroying stuff and like Right. Okay. This is like a cultural intervention type lifestyle a lifestyle warning. Yeah, but I think the first She doesn't have kids. So she's Right. Right. Right. Yeah. And then I think the first person to do that was this woman who created the list which is like a crowd-sourced list of reasons not to have children. I think it was 350 reasons not to have not to have kids and there was a page and a half but she printed them out so it's you know like nine pages, 10 pages or something of reasons not to and I think the the reasons to amounted to a page of A4. But in the reasons not to have kids was um can't wear cute heels anymore, will miss miss brunch with the girls, literal parasite living inside of your body. Yeah. Uh plus every every kind of risk or health scare that could possibly go wrong is like listed on it. So if like everything from starting with, you know, losing sleep and you know, having like a stomach ache or headache to absolute worst-case scenario risk that can happen. And you kind of read it and you're like, "God, this is like the most meaningful thing a human can do." You know, it is the fundamental human instinct. Not not to say that everyone should have children, but when you see, you know, so many young people convinced that life should be fun and easy all the time, and that anything that comes with this level of risk is not worth it, I think that's a symptom of like something extremely sinister, which is which is, you know, Gen Z are suffering from because they're on a path to miss out on the most meaningful things because of it, out of fear. It's the prioritization of immediate emotional comfort over long-term flourishing. It's the avoidance of risk, but also change, because change is associated with risk. Yeah. there is a a kind of individualized solipsism about Uh I think the the most popular reasons for why people aren't in relationships or why they're not dating, it's uh working on myself right now, just don't feel ready, don't have enough time, having too much fun on my own. Uh the same thing for why people don't want to have kids. Uh it's this sort of imposition on their life. Yeah. That's what that's what they're primarily concerned about, because if I do this thing, things are going to change, and if the things change, uh why was it here? This is interesting. Um When asked what it takes to lead a fulfilling life, the public prioritizes job satisfaction and friendship over marriage and parenthood. 71% of all adults say having a job or career they enjoy is extremely or very important for people to live a fulfilling life, and 61% say having close friends is equally important. Only about one in four adults say having children, or 23%, being married is extremely or very important to in order to live a fulfilling life. A third say each of these is somewhat important and 42% and 44% say having children or being married is not too or not at all important. Having a lot of money is viewed as extremely or very important for a fulfilling life. Women place a little more importance on job career enjoyment than men do. 74% versus 69%. At the same time men place somewhat more importance on marriage and having children. 28% of men compared to with 18% of women say being married is extremely or very important for a fulfilling life. Similarly, 29% of men versus 22% of women say the same about having children. And that was Pew research that literally came out 3 months ago. The interesting take online was having a great job is zero sum. Only one person can be the best salesperson, but hypothetically everyone can have a happy marriage and family. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think again that's the I would put that down to the lack of you know, role models again for young women who are or who are showing that different lifestyle of, you know, family and children. Um you know, if you look at the top kind of pop culture stars that Gen Z women are looking up to and loving, they're all living a similar lifestyle because they're in that um world where their ultimate goal is money and you know, fame and um all of these values that, you know, are kind of incompatible with children. They make, you know, children get in the way of that. Yep. They're not seeing role models whose ultimate values are family or you know, legacy or anything like that. So, it is just not being translated to them. I wonder what will happen if Taylor Swift gets pregnant. Like I I I I [ __ ] hesitate to use Taylor Swift as the linchpin for female culture, but she has captured culture in a way that I, you know, I I think really anybody else has. And something tells me that Travis Kelce he's a bearded beer drinker. I mean, he's also sponsored by Pfizer and maybe paid for by George Soros. But he is a pretty like old-school sweary guy. Him and his brother, you know, behave in that kind of a manner. Something tells me that he probably intends on having a family at some point. And if you've got the greatest or one of the greatest NFL players ever their genes plus perhaps one of the greatest female pop stars. Like make some kids. Come on. But if that if that happens, do you remember when Adele lost weight? And all the body positivity people were like, you betrayed us and blah blah blah. I wonder how many people will say, you know, they're all happy for the fact that Taylor Swift's in a relationship. Mhm. But she is still able to do the dink role model thing. But if she decides to start having a family, I wonder how much of that would change. And then look at it the other way. I mean Alex Cooper should have been called to account so [ __ ] hard. She should have got dragged so [ __ ] hard on the internet for extolling the virtues of casual sex and no frills attached and sleep with them and don't catch feels and here's how to the glug glug 4000 or whatever this like good [ __ ] episode that was episode number three of a podcast or something else. Like extolling the virtues of casual sex and then for the final three years of the podcast secretly having a relationship with the guy that she was totally besotted and in love with. And then to kind of like like Bruce Wayne saying that he's Batman go I'm engaged. And the engagement was so cute and there was a rose garden and he got down on one knee and he'd asked my dad and he'd done all of this other stuff. And he goes, "Yo, how big is the wake of broken girls that allowed themselves to be used by guys Yeah. over the last half decade because of you as the the second biggest or whatever one of the biggest female podcast on the planet, how many girls did you basically sell a lie to about the lifestyle that you thought was good when what you were doing was the opposite and then you knew it. You knew that this was the case. Yeah. Yeah, I I think again, it's that fear. You know, the fear of telling girls what to do, but also the fear of in promoting a traditional lifestyle in any way. You know, that I think there's like a terror of thinking that you're regressive if you start saying, "Oh, you know, I actually enjoy my marriage. I'm actually glad I got married young." or you know, uh I'm going to give up some of this um you know, I'm going to put fame to the side to have children or things like that. I think a lot of probably older women feel that, but don't translate it to younger women because they don't want to lecture them. Um what you know, whereas you know, we need some people in culture who are who are pointing, you know, not saying, "Oh, young women need to have children or get married." but saying, you know, actually the most fulfilling things are things that you don't buy and you don't um you know, need to have sold to you. They're things like a meaningful relationship and children which are separate from the market and they provide this kind of sustainable meaning. You know, no one's saying that because it's not sexy and it's not like attention-grabbing. Well, how many women as well that would be the role models for this talking point just don't exist in the same communication ecosystem as the audience that would benefit from it most? Yeah, and also the the people with the platform are usually influencers who are whose ultimate values are the fame, money, and possessions. did a very particular type of person that was chasing the fame and the fame is what got them the platform on which they can talk about the virtues of chasing fame. Yeah, so probably the best role models for women are not on social media and are not famous. Yeah, they're having a quiet coffee with their friends on a Tuesday afternoon. Yeah. Yeah, and then and then you get this like like trad wife movement or whatever where you get the the other extreme end but it's still it's still a performance. They're still like filming it for TikTok. So it's like either way, we're still getting like a shallow version. Um Do you know who Sam Sulek is? No, who's that? It's like so unsurprising that you, a girl on the internet, doesn't when every guy on the internet pretty much does. He is a uh 22-year-old, 23-year-old bodybuilder. Mhm. I guess. Um and his whole thing is completely raw authenticity. Uh his entire YouTube channel, there's no crafting of thumbnails, there's no crafting of titles, um and all he does is film his training sessions and he gets in a car and he's just the the least polished person that you're going to meet. He's a little bit socially awkward. He's jacked out of his mind, so he's huge. So there's a lot of aspiration in his normality. Uh but there's a trend at the moment, at least on the guys' side, I think, of moving away from the hyper-polished, very edited, very curated messaging. I think people are falling in love with people that Yeah, I get that. Like I understand I I I I I drive a Toyota [ __ ] Avensis. I um you know, sometimes get uh uncomfortable when people come up to me in the gym. Those sorts of things. He's he's just showing what's going on and I wonder when there will be a female equivalent because he's had phenomenal success that seems to be I mean he's playing five-dimensional chess if he's if that's actually a role. Yeah. And he's conned everybody. But yeah, I I think there could be gap in the market for an influential female to come in and do something similar. Yeah, I think uh the problem is with that is I think some people try they try to be very authentic online and then like I said, they end up performing but in a different ways. So they end up performing like you know, like you see videos on TikTok like influencers saying, "Oh, you know, this is me kind of crying on my bedroom floor because everything's going wrong." And it's like Yeah. And it's also you've set up the camera in order to cry, in order to capture this moment. Um you know, there's like influencers saying, "Oh, you know, I caught my panic attack on camera." And you watch it and it's like, "Yeah, this is performance again." So I think there's a very narrow line to to actually be authentic. Um and again, we just seem to be swinging right past it. Um to still be performing all the time. How is or why is it the case that sex and dating are down if hookup culture is so prominent? Yeah, this is interesting. I think I think it seems to be that uh when people are having sex it's more often casual sex. But in general, Gen Z are having less sex compared to previous generations at the same age. But if you talk to young people about their sexual experiences, they'll usually typically be like a hookup or something like that. Um but I think a lot of what Gen Z are in now is like situationships. So they're in like this gray area where they seem to be hooking up and there's no commitment, there's no relationship out of it. So, the people who are having sex like don't seem to be in committed relationships like previous generations were. They're in this kind of weird stage where you're not exclusive, but you're having sex. And I I think that is like a big cause of um anxiety and relationship problems is that there doesn't seem to be boundaries anymore with that. Mhm. And why is that the case? What What is the underlying driver that's that encouraging both sex positivity and risk aversion at the same time? Like I I I I don't understand what what the current is. Well, it seems to be this paradox in so many areas of young women's lives. So, like you said, there's the risk aversion and the sex positivity. Then there's also the, you know, self-love and body positivity and the body dysmorphia and the eating disorders. Then there's also like, you know, I'm a feminist um empowered woman who doesn't care, but also I have crippling anxiety and depression and there seems to be so many like paradoxes going on. And I I think it's because a lot of the narratives are like a front for how we're actually feeling, like a defense mechanism. So, there's a lot of people talking about sex positivity and how casual sex is empowering, but there's also a lot of people saying they they're stuck in situationships, they can't get a guy to commit, they don't want to commit, you know, they're having all kinds of doubts and thinking of all kinds of red flags of reasons not to commit. So, I think like the louder we get about sex positivity, the louder we get about anything really in modern life, it seems to be that deep down the opposite is true. There's real pain, there's real confusion. But yeah, it seems to be a way of dealing with it. There's definitely the paradoxes I think exist because people are performing this performative empathy toxic compassion thing. Causes where you want to thread the needle to intersect two Venn diagrams sometimes, right? Like I don't want to kink shame and women can have sex the same as men do and also like I you should be afraid of all of the things that exist on the internet and all of the things that can happen in real life and here's red flags because he's come up to you in the gym. Like that sometimes that that needle gets threaded between the two because people aren't actually doing the sense making for themselves. They're outsourcing it to people on the internet and this person over here, the guy shouldn't approach girls in the gym person, also that there's one cohort. Okay, I believe that thing even if I don't believe that thing, I think that thing or I've seen that thing and then you've got the other side which is the don't kink shame me, you can sleep with them and not catch feels, I listen to Alex Cooper and you know, those things come together. Yeah, yeah, no, it's true and I think it's one of those things where people it's like they've not thought through the consequences of it. So that they'll be for example, there's like a lot of feminists who push kind of commodifying yourself and selling yourself online as as fun and like risk-free and empowering. But then if they saw like a 13-year-old copying that behavior, they would be absolutely horrified. Um so they know that there's you know, when they're saying it's fun and risk-free and there's nothing wrong with it. They know that like there is something about it that you shouldn't be sharing with young girls without warnings of the risks and the dangers. Um but they continue to do it and sell it that way. Uh so I think a lot of the time what people are pushing and celebrating they know there's dark sides to it or they know there's dangers, but they keep pushing and celebrating it to kind of justify that and it's like a mechanism. Talk to me about the glamorizing of divorce. Yeah, so um I first started writing about that when I saw uh so Adele got divorced, and it was like a big Oh, did she? I In my world, she'd only just got married. No, she got she was uh married very young, and she got divorced. Um and she made it kind of like her personal brand, so like she had I'm pretty sure she was selling like divorce merchandise at her concerts. Uh What does that consist of? I think it was necklaces saying divorced, um I'm pretty sure. And her catchphrase was like divorce babe or something. And uh to be fair to her, like a lot of fans were pushing it as well. Like it was her divorce album, so they were like loving it. Um and I'd noticed as well like mainstream magazines and publications also glamorizing divorce. So like The New York Times called it a radical act of self-love. Um and uh the Vogue was saying this Valentine's Day, let's like celebrate divorce. Um and yeah, or The Guardian was talking about the joy of divorce parties. They spoke about it recently as well. Um Joy of divorce parties? Yeah, so to celebrate your divorce with your loved ones. Um so I'd seen all of this stuff in culture that was not just kind of saying, you know, don't shame people for getting divorced. It was saying like that's actively celebrated. And I think it's the same thing again. It's like a defense mechanism because we all know intuitively and through the data that you know, divorce is devastating for children and families by almost every metric. And yet to kind of deal with that, again, we're getting louder and louder about the joys of divorce and how it's self-love and it's empowering. And I think the only way to explain that is it's it's like a topic that's so close to home that's so like difficult to confront that the only way to handle it is to kind of wrap it up in this language and pretend that you know, we're all celebrating it. Um but I've seen that so much and it's also interesting that it's never mentioned as like a factor in Gen Z's mental health. Family breakdown is just if you look at the academic essays, if you look at mainstream, you know, um media commentators trying to figure out, it's never divorce, it's never you know, maybe this there could be a part to play that, you know, one in three Gen Z see their parents split by the time they're 16 in the UK. That's never mentioned. It's always again the climate crisis or the housing ladder or whatever it is. How much of a big role do you think or how instrumental are broken families and single-parent households, how much of Gen Z's problems are downstream from that? Um well, I would say I would say a lot of Gen Z struggle because of that bec- because, you know, we know from um research that having divorced parents means that you're more likely to suffer from anxiety, from depression, from eating disorders, self-harm, you know, girls especially seem to have these like internalizing behaviors when they go through trauma like uh family breakdown, so they'll very often get very anxious and withdraw inwards and kind of punish themselves through things like eating disorders or self-harm, which we're seeing like on mass now. Um so, it's not to say that I think like family breakdown causes all of Gen Z's mental health problems, but I think everything Gen Z is struggling with is made worse by family breakdown. So, for example, if you're like I think social media is terrible for young girls, but I would say it's probably worse if you don't have a family to ground you and you're putting more of your self-worth into these platforms and you're depending on strangers online for that emotional validation that you're not getting from both parents. Same with things like I'm sure there are some Gen Z who are terrified of climate change, but I'm pretty sure if you don't have a stable family around you and like, you know, a place to develop that resilience and those healthier coping strategies, then you're going to be even more afraid of climate change. So, the way I see it is just that family breakdown will be exacerbating all of these problems and not giving girls and boys that kind of grounding to be more resilient to these things. Do you think that progressives make worse parents? Um, I think that the like parenting style that's popular among progressives, so this new like gentle parenting style, which is very much uh listening to your child's uh like validating their emotions and their explanations for things instead of punishment. Um, so having the compassion and the love that parenting needs, but without the kind of strictness. Um, I think that is worse for parenting and I think there's a lot of research showing that conservatives are actually much better at disciplining children and actually have better relationships with their children as a result. It's that thing again of like girls and young women and men, but girls and young women as well, need this discipline with the compassion, but society as a whole and some families seem to be just prioritizing the compassion and the instant gratification, you know, what looks most loving in the moment but is not long-term. There was a really interesting book, Life of Dad by Anna Machin, and she came out of Robin Dunbar's lab, I think in Oxford, evolutionary anthropologist, uh and like ardently pro-women, but when she had her first kid, her husband really suffered, his mental health suffered. It was a difficult pregnancy, a difficult birth, difficult pregnancy. And his wife and newborn child got wheeled out of the room with you did ventilators and things attached and all the rest of it, and he was just left there. And she started researching the challenges that fathers face, the fact that we all of the attention is on mom, but that dads don't even get prepared with this cascade of hormones that they still have. And obviously, the woman's body is the one that goes through it and the hormones and the stress and the health and all the rest of it, the morning sickness, yeah, obviously. But it's this inability of the modern world to hold two slightly nuanced thoughts in your mind. They're not contradictory, they don't conflict with each other. It's like, hey, having a child can be stressful on both participants, even the one that doesn't have the child inside of their body. Like, that's the That's the level of nuance that we need to get to. But it's such a zero-sum mentality. And again, this sort of hyper-individualism, this focus on the discomfort of the person means that it's very hard to be able to get someone to to see that. And she was great. The The episode I did with her was was super interesting. And um Yeah, I wonder There was some really cool stuff about how we often hear about the negative outcomes for males when they grow up in a fatherless household because the kind of externalizing behavior that men do when they grow up is you know they burn down car they burn set cars of on fire and do antisocial behavior or get involved in gang culture or find surrogate fathers that aren't good for them or whatever. But it's not good for girls either. It's very very important there's some really worrying sociosexual adjustments that girls who grow up without a father have that they seem to chase male validation in different kind of way. It's particularly formative during their teenage years to have a father around. I can't remember why that was but it's just so so many things and again the main reason is well if you say this you are implicitly derogating the hard-working single mothers that are trying to Yeah. build a family on their own and we need to be inclusive especially to the people who are the ones that are suffering the most in life which means that this conversation and the insights of it are publicly less in vogue. Yeah, I think it's it's this concept of of stigma which obviously comes from somewhere that like there's there's truth in it that you know there are issues that um that have stigma attached but I think there's a fixation with stigma particularly on the progressive left that seems to just stop us from being able to have honest conversations about things. So family breakdown is a is a good example of it like it's all about the stigma against single mothers so you can't talk about fathers leaving or it's the stigma of you know divorced parents so you can't talk about all the data showing that you know that's not good for children. Um and I feel like that again with the mental health stuff especially this word stigma seems to just block off honest um discussions about these issues. And it seems to be a way to shut people down and stop them from going any further. Where it's like some sometimes, you know, this conversation is more important than this idea of societal stigma. You know, it's very important that we talk about the effects of divorce on children. Um and I think, yeah, constantly bringing that up stops that and makes people afraid to talk about it. There was this idea I learned that I think explains this. It's called a semantic stop sign. One way that people end discussions is by disguising descriptions as explanations. For instance, the word evil is used to explain behavior, but really only describes it. It resolves the question not by creating understanding, but by killing curiosity. Yeah. Semantic stop sign. I think that stigma what it is. It stops stop sign. kind of further analysis. Um you know, like, okay, we can't go any further because it's it's now stigmatizing. Um which I think, you know, for so many issues this idea of stigma stops us from actually getting to the root of the mental health crisis. What's the role of mainstream feminism here then? Like how does that fold into like what's happening? What what are what are they supposed to be What are they spending their time doing? Um I feel like, you know, the the feminism I grew up seeing and, you know, I I I've not read all the feminist literature, but I can just go off of what I have grown up with and what I associate it with. And what I associate mainstream feminism with is very much selling me things. Um it's like almost like a marketing strategy because it feels like whenever I hear about feminism or empowerment, it's like some kind of product or service or procedure that's being sold to me or it's a lifestyle that's very much uh materialistic and consumerist in some way. Um so so that's like my interpretation of feminism now because that's what I'm seeing. So I feel like it's been co-opted by corporations. And this version that Gen Z are growing up with the the thing that that um feminism kind of tells you to value again is is money, is um you know, working for a corporation. It's it's kind of all of these uh values that are very very convenient for companies and industries. Um so that's definitely what I associate it with, unfortunately. Well, that's how powerful the patriarchy is. We've convinced women that not only do they need to be the homemaker, but also that they can go to work and be the breadwinner while we get to stay at home and play Xbox. Yeah, exactly. It's worked out well for you. It's worked out incredibly well. What are you working on next? What's coming up? Um well, I've just written an article actually about what we were talking about about um stopping opening up about mental health online. Um so that's yeah, uh kind of saying, you know, we need to stop swinging too far to the extreme. We need to stop, you know, telling young people it's their duty to open up. I'm trying to backtrack on some of this. So I think my focus at the moment is mental health culture and the industry that's developing around it because I think like I said, I think there's a genuine mental health crisis, but I think a lot of it is the way young people are being taught to think about their mental health and to talk about it um has just gone way too far in the wrong direction. Do you follow Seerat Chawla on Instagram? She's [ __ ] fantastic. She was on the show. She'd had 3 hours sleep because she'd gone down to some Netflix rabbit hole the night before. But she's so she's so great and she's very sort of unapologetic. She's a tough love. She's a good girl. She's my role model. That's what we mean. she's a tough love kind she's like the psychotherapist female psychotherapist David Goggins. Very anti-coddle culture, very anti-victimhood. Yeah, that's cool. Look Freya, I'm I'm really really impressed with you. I think that your work's fantastic. I think that the next few years has got huge things in store. You're part of the based British women squad with Louise but I'm it's me that came up with it. But then Mary is in it, Louise is in it. I think kind of Helen Lewis is in it a little bit. Nina Powers in it. The problem that we found was that based British women shortens as an acronym to BBW which is a type of porn. Oh no. So we need to come up with a new name. I thought like IDW based British women based British women's cool but BBW is maybe a little we might be fighting a fighting uphill with that. Where should people go if they want to keep keep up to date with all of this stuff that you're doing? Um So mostly my Substack. So that's freyaindia.co.uk. It's called Girls. So I'm publishing most of my articles on there and also Twitter is freyaindiaa. But I have no other social media. Cuz it's terrible. Well played, Freya. I really appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you. 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