When faculty vote no confidence: a Future Trends Forum session

Greetings and welcome to the future trends forum, a weekly conversation about the future of higher education. In this recording, we explored the question of what actually happens when campus presidents lose their faculty's confidence. Our guests were the authors of a new book, No Confidence: When College Faculty Turn against Their Presidents, out from John's Hopkins University Press, Michael T. Nitzel, President Emiritis of Missouri State University, and Charles M. Ambrose, senior education consultant at Hush Blackwell Consulting. We began by describing what a no confidence vote looks like, which led us into a discussion about faculty governance. Next, we branched out into topics including tenure unions, the role of staff, different reasons for holding a no confidence vote, possible outcomes after a winning such a vote, the importance of transparency, how this process is changing, and more. There are links in the show notes. And as always, the comment box stands ready for your thoughts and questions. Well, this looks like the top of the hour, so we should begin. Let me welcome everybody. Welcome to the Future Trends Forum. I'm really glad to see you here today. We have two splendid guests talking about a really really important topic and I'm looking forward to our conversation. The topic here is no confidence votes. When faculty vote no confidence in a president, how does that work? Where does it come about? How is that changing? Um we have with us the authors of a terrific new book out from John's Hopkins University Press that I strongly recommend, No Confidence. uh which is among other things. First of all, a great guide to the whole process where they define the history. Uh they find a lot of examples of no confidence votes. They analyze how they work and they have a great breakdown about the mechanisms by which they work and also the causes of no confidence votes which we're going to be talking about. But it's also and this might sound like a a narrow topic or this might sound like we're looking at a pretty unusual event. Most colleges and universities don't go through these votes, although we'll hear about that in a minute. But also because thinking about no confidence votes gives you a real good cut through a university or a college's operations. It helps you think about for example the role of tenure faculty senates. It helps you rethink governance. It also helps you think about the different crises afflicting higher rate which we've been talking about in the future transform. So enough of that background. Let's bring up to the camera our our two awesome guests. Let's start with Chuck Ambrose. Good afternoon sir. Hey Brian, always good to be with you and uh thanks for having us. Look forward to this discussion. >> Well, I'm I'm really glad to see you always and uh I'm grateful to you for making the time especially for having uh co-written this book. Chuck, what are you going to be working on for the next year? What's ahead for you? you know, um, of course I'm, uh, engaged with Hush Blackwell Consulting after 25 years as either a college president or a philanthropy CEO and, uh, just, uh, like all of you, right, trying to find, uh, the the keys to to what sustainability looks like. Uh, here we are in August, right? I I know that feeling. Some of you have already had startup or students arriving back on campuses. Uh many of you are holding your breath just to see uh what fall is going to look like, but then we're in it, right? And uh I saw somebody refer to last week just kind of the the seasonal rhythm of colleges. And uh again, um my adrenaline's up even though I'm not campus based right now for for what's ahead. Uh you know, unfortunately, Brian, you know, some of the some of the categories that we put into the kind of that no confidence bucket are the ones that are going to be most challenging, right? just uh taking scarce resources, allocating to the outcomes and uh trying right to do what's uh the promise of college for the students we serve. So uh I think it's going to be an exciting year. I think for some it's going to be one of those defining years. >> Wow. Wow. We're going to definitely circle back to that. Um but I expect you will be very very busy and much in demand. Um well, let me uh ask one more question though, Chuck. Where have we found you today? you you found me uh in a little haunt cause called Tabernach, Colorado, where uh I uh I spend a lot of time. Um I work virtually uh through Hush Blackwell's office, the link, which has over a thousand people virtually. So I just disclosed something that I usually don't. They don't know where I am, Brian. So u [laughter] I could I could be anywhere. >> Yeah, you you can you were in a previously undisclosed location. >> Perfect. I I'll keep it at that. >> I like that. Um well, over to your co-author, co-conspirator and colleague, Mike Nitsel. Hello, sir. >> Hey, Brian. Good to see you. Thanks for having us on. >> Always good to have you back. Always good to have you back. So, let me give you the two questions. First of all, Mike, where have we found you besides in the presence of a mighty bookshelf? >> The mighty bookshelf is in my home office here in Tulsa, Oklahoma. uh where I do where I spend a lot of my day too much of my day. >> Understood. Understood. And then uh that's the spatial question and the temporal question is what's ahead for you for the next year? Uh are you also going to be on the road helping uh all kinds of universities and colleges? Um or what are the what are the ideas and the projects for you? >> Well, I'm going to continue to write my regular contributions to Forbes uh which uh occupies quite a bit of my time. I try to keep up with the latest developments in higher ed through that column, particularly focused on finance, faculty affairs, university leadership, philanthropy. So, I'm going to continue to do that. Uh, and there may be some uh manuscript uh scenarios in the future as well, but that's one we're still working on. >> Well, I mean, more books from you guys is definitely a good thing. Um, but also your Forbes columns are remarkable. They're so clear, so lucid. Um just, you know, a real model of academic writing for a journalistic audience. So, >> thanks. Appreciate that >> to people. >> Yeah. Well, um gentlemen, you uh have just come out with this book about no confidence votes. And I'm wondering if we could just quickly start. And by the way, for everyone who's new to the forum, uh I'm going to ask a couple of questions to our good guests, but then it's going to be over to you for your questions and your thoughts. So, as they start to speak, think about what you'd like to know uh and what questions you'd like to put to them, what ideas you'd like to run past them. Uh so, the first one is a scoping question. Uh when you were talking about no confidence vote, if I get this right, you're talking about no confidence votes given by the faculty of a college or university, not necessarily by a department or other unit within a university, but entity representing an entire faculty such as a senate, right? And you're talking about no confidence in a president, not in some other official. You >> That is exactly right. These are votes taken either by the faculty at large or by a duly constituted representative body that speaks for the faculty >> and uh they are directed either at a university president or chancellor. Mhm. [clears throat] >> No confidence votes do occur with deans and occasionally, although very rarely with department chairs. >> No confidence votes are taken by alumni associations um by um student groups as well. But we we focus on the one that we think has the most consequence and that is um a no confidence vote against the university's chief executive officer. Sometimes those are accompanied by no confidence votes also directed against the board, the governing board, >> but we didn't include any votes that were solely against governing boards. they had to have the the president or the chancellor represented as a target for us to include them in our discussion. >> In in your discussion, you have a whole bunch of case studies, a whole bunch of stories of of different no confidence measures that were attempted or taken and their impacts and and boards play such a role where they either prove decisive in backing their president or or they they don't. Um I'm I'm curious. One of the one of the struggles in your book is describing how difficult it is to get good data on this that some people have been working on gathering evidence. Um but one of the issues is as uh Larabe wrote uh higher education in the US is a perfect mess. It's so disorganized and autonomous and it's difficult to get good data. Um but you've you've drawn some interesting conclusions that uh for example uh no confidence votes are more likely to take place at public institutions rather than private. They're more likely to take place at medium and largesiz institutions rather than small ones. Um they're also more likely to occur where uh faculty are unionized um than otherwise. Um but I'm curious looking at your broad sweep of experience because both of you have such wonderful experience. How are no confidence votes changing? You know, what kind of new patterns are starting to emerge? >> Yeah, it's a that's a great question, Brian. And, you know, one of the I think Mike and I started the book writing as two former college presidents who had served together and had, you know, multiple roles um in the state of Missouri as colleagues and and uh we left. Um, I would say, Mike, with our perspective broadened and changed a little bit, we tried to somewhat dissuade our own bias about no confidence votes as former CEOs. Um, >> and um, you know, Mike was really the first to say, you know, not only is the data maybe a little uneven, but it is accelerating u frequency. uh there's some causal uh just like many of the inflection points we're feeling both systemically and structurally in higher education uh really that the the the pandemic right was somewhat of a an accelerant uh and then of course uh now there's many more accelerants that just the headwinds uh Brian that colleges have not necessarily been accustomed to. It's never been smooth sailing uh from a shared governance standpoint, but uh this is kind of an extraordinary set of forces that uh put them square and center of the potential of of trying to manage change. Right. >> So we we did perceive Brian that they were on the upswing. Uh it doesn't mean that they're common still, but they're becoming let's say less rare. Um and if you look at when there was a noticeable uptick at the beginning of uh this decade, you had the COVID pandemic. Uh you had then a few years later some significant campus unrest. Uh and then you had just a host of serious financial difficulties >> indeed >> plaguing colleges that they had not faced before. And those three kinds of situations uh we found to be at the root of of several no confidence votes and we think uh account for the fact that they have been on the upswing. The other pattern that I would mention is you do have presidents being more willing to shortcircuit traditional forms of uh shared governance within institutions and you also have faculty bodies being more willing to weigh in on contentious issues. That's a mix that gets uh translated into an increased frequency of no confidence votes. >> Yikes. Um I mean that's that's just a description of increasing friction. Um, >> and there's the there's also the longer term trend that that I'm so glad that you both uh dwell on, which is the uh decrease decreasing proportion of faculty at a given institution who have tenure and thus governance um responsibilities. >> Correct. >> Yes. >> Um I I want to I usually just ask guests two questions, but I I I like this book so much I I'm wondering if I could just put one more out there um for you. There's um you have a great anatomy of the causes of uh no confidence votes. This is uh this is on page 39. Um and just I want to make sure that people heard this because this is so um so useful uh as a framing device. you include uh reasons for or types of no confidence vote causes uh shared governance concerns, financial mismanagement, institutional restructuring and budget, personality clashes, uh which really loomed large I think in the story, uh mishandling of the COVID pandemic, unpopular personnel decisions, and you've got a couple of really powerful stories about that. personal misconduct, which we we do see, um disagreements over the handling of campus protests and safety, uh especially came up uh during the uh Gaza protests, >> correct? >> And then poor planning and leadership. Um so I I I just thought by that that one paragraph, you managed to sum up so much of contemporary college and academic life right now. Um, but I I'm wondering if you could with those categories, which of those do you see looming largest? I mean, is it personality clashes? Is it uh financial um challenges and cutting? What What do you see really driving the no confidence votes of the near future? >> You want me to take a first stab there, Chuck? >> Go ahead, Mike. I'll follow on. Uh Brian, I think um the the the c first of all, let's be clear that we do try to emphasize that many no confidence votes reflect a mixture of those categories that you just enumerated. They they're not pure categories. They're they have fuzzy boundaries. Uh and uh in the rationale that faculty give for the vote, they often point to more than one particular kind of concern. Although there may be a straw that sort of breaks the camel's back, it's it's pretty multiaceted behind many of these votes. If I were to bet on the one that's going to continue to cause the most contention, it would be budgetary decisions, financial management of the institution. Uh because I think that universities are going to continue to face us a tough financial future. And so when you encounter uh uh financial strain that immediately begins to implicate academic programs, athletic spending, um you know, the hiring and firing of uh adjunct and contingent faculty as opposed to full-time or tenure track faculty. It touches on a lot of third rails. Uh so I think that's the one that's going to continue to be uh the most interesting and the most numerous. There are the occasional misconduct ones. Those aren't all that interesting except for sort of the juicy details. Sure. Because in many of those cases the I think we felt the vote was entirely justified. You know the president had been out of line had misbehaved seriously. uh and so it was it was clear that the faculty was taking a principled stand on on something that did and should have mattered to him. But yeah, if I were to say which one I think will carry the weight the most weight in the future, I think it's going to be financial management and and disagreements about that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, >> Brian. there there could be a little nuance uh as your intro uh kind of illuminated by institutional type um you know the more resources you have perhaps uh the decisions over how you allocate them one of the things that um you know I think is prevalent when it's financial crisis there is a a pervasive fear or angst that kind of uh washes over um both faculty and staff >> um and and one of the things we learned, Brian, especially from our faculty voices, faculty leadership, um, university senate, uh, leadership. uh they gave us kind of a characterization of perhaps some cultural um you know I would say nuance among the faculty of you know there's always there there's always those that will raise concern think otherwise be right on the front um somewhat of that u faculty expectation right to analyze and question everything uh you know another you know probably activates when things uh become come questionable in terms of program reductions, eliminations, hiring freezes, travel. Um, and then there's those that just want to put their head down and do their work and hope the storm blows over. Um and uh we um we really found that the the angst and and somewhat of the the emotional um not just stress but energy uh is shared fairly equally across an administration as it is a faculty when they're attempting to to find their voice. I I noticed several questions about uh if not unionized, is there a place? Um you know, we left this book saying yes, there is a place, right? This is uh part of it. And um which you know, may surprise some people. Um because uh you know, at one side we had voices uh like Brian Rosenberg say that you know, a no confidence vote is actually a vote in the confidence in higher education itself. you know uh and the whole systems of tenure and shared governance. But then we had others right that were literally uh rolled up sleeves attempting to say this is the means by which we hold each other accountable as a community. Uh and uh if we share information and and know the problems we're trying to solve perhaps together we would be better positioned to actually move an institution forward rather than tear it apart. I was impressed by how some of the no confidence presidents um spoke in those terms even during the process. Um uh Ston at NYU for example saying that the the negative feedback can be constructive and and help with their leadership. But I don't I don't want to dominate the floor here friends. This is u this is the space for your questions. And uh Chuck already found one of the questions and I want to give it um its own space here. This is from our friend Tony Synindelar in New England who said he's curious about what no confidence votes looked like at schools without unions. Uh he adds a prior institution he was at felt like it basically had no mechanism for this. Perhaps it was lopsided in the shared governance model. So I'm cur I mean you think what what are the differences between a unionized faculty voting no confidence versus faculty without a union doing that? >> You know you'll find that most no confidence votes are pretty organic there. It's not that universities have a >> a u long list of governing regulations about how to do a no confidence vote. Um frequently it starts as a discussion in a faculty or university senate. They may uh propose a resolution. The senate votes on it like it would any other resolution and the results are published. Other universities do have a a more detailed script and they identify who can vote in such a matter, how the votes are to be counted and how the results are to be distributed and published. So there's a wide range of mechanics involved in how these are taken. For the most part, universities ma make up the the faculty make up the procedures as they go. And I don't mean that in any kind of pjorative sense. this isn't a a common occurrence. Um so I think they they proceed according to a kind of um traditional regular faculty voice process at most institutions. If they have formal mechanisms, they'll follow it. If they don't, it'll grow out of a resolution and a vote taken on that resolution. You have one story about uh one institution where the faculty wanted to know confidence vote but found that they didn't know the procedures. So the first thing they were going to do was launch a committee that would investigate that and determine a course of action and then and then relay that to the faculty which which I thought was um almost charming but also very very practical um you know showing how rare these these moves are and how they want to do it carefully. >> Correct. And and I would emphasize that, Brian, we found that the process by which no confidence votes are taken for the in the vast majority of cases, uh, it's done soberly, seriously, uh, and with a a a great deal of concern about the implications of the vote. Um, so they're not they're not light-hearted matters by any means and they're not taken friv p frivolously by those who uh initiate them. >> Thank you. >> And Brian, several of the the the comments that uh well, I'm going to go back to something Mike said. Um they're not a single issue type of event. Usually there's there there's many steps prior that should uh give notice to an administration or a CEO or a board that something's happening, right? There's these usually by the time they culminate into a formal no confidence vote uh have had plenty of foreseeability, right? um and and probably plenty of means to somewhat diffuse or at least attempt to uh diffuse uh some of the the concerns. Um and of course I I don't want to jump ahead to some recommendations, but the comments about transparency are very real, right? Uh and you know, from a a leadership standpoint, um you know, one of the most common uh comments around a no confidence vote is well, we didn't know, right? uh we had no idea, right? How did we get into this situation? Uh what do you mean we've got the highest enrollment and lowest net tuition uh in school history? Right? Uh because as learning institutions, we really don't teach people how all of this actually comes together and actually works. And Mike, that was again one of those other uh I I think we knew it. Uh but quite the the the outward revelation that if we really uh not just transparency but much more of the elements if you go to most doctoral programs in higher ed go and look and really see how much strategic finance is actually embedded in how we teach people to lead colleges, right? uh take that into a department level uh into a program level uh how many students you have, how long you keep them, uh how much they're willing to pay for your program. We we really usually don't talk about that in terms of how to help, right? How what I do every day actually matters. Uh and um again, there was a comment uh that may be as equally important for staff >> uh as it is for faculty. Um so that's why you see some of them germinate in climate surveys. Uh you certainly see telltale signs in leadership 360s, right? When um boards are willing to actually assess uh by soliciting the community's thoughts about leadership. Um Mike, we've seen referendums that don't really kind of fall into an NCV kind of category, but uh have some of the same impact. Um, of course, social media also has a an increasingly prevalent role in kind of activating a campus. So, uh, >> there's um, usually you know what's coming before uh, it arrives. >> You should know. Yeah. >> Yeah. If you didn't, should should you have known or or did you know? Chuck and Mike, I mean it, among other things, your book and this conversation, I think is is wonderful material for anybody in a leadership position now or seeking such a position. Uh we have questions that are coming in through the chat. I want to make sure we get a chance to uh tackle all of them. Uh our good friend uh Carl Ajo um observes that one outcome of Texas's crackdown on faculty senates in public institutions is that it's likely harder for such faculty to hold no confidence votes. That that's not a question, that's an observation and a good one. But I'm wondering if Mike or Chuck if you want to uh respond to that. >> Well, I um that cuts both ways. A a case that I'm very familiar with because I was there for 32 years is the University of Kentucky >> where uh the president and the board did on their own what some states are doing through legislation and that is it basically demoted the faculty senate um from a policy making body to purely an advisory one >> that got them a no confidence vote very quickly overwhelming vote against President Capaludo for his role in demoting the faculty senate. Uh so I think that uh the question or the comment is correct in that the intent behind some of the legislation is to squash faculty uh voices. It doesn't necessarily result in that. In some cases it has spurred a backlash. the Kentucky case, I think, being one of the the more prominent ones. Uh, and that led to a a strong no confidence vote against Eli Capaludo. >> Auburn would be another Yes. >> case in point. Um, certainly Texas. Um and uh Mike, wouldn't you say that Kentucky has kind of evolved or devolved into even the governor kind of stepping in and saying, "Hey, maybe things aren't going the way that they should for our flagship." >> If we were writing the book today, the Kentucky chapter would uh now include the governor saying, "I'm not sure I have confidence in the president and the leadership of the University of Kentucky." >> This is Andy Basher, right? Danny Basher be because of the university's well several things really. It's not just one but one is the demotion of faculty and silencing of faculty voices. >> Yeah, that was quite a striking statement. Uh I was impressed by that. Please Chuck, go ahead. I >> Well, and I I was just going to add I mean again we're living out uh some some interesting circumstances. Uh maybe [clears throat] some of us would say are are rare. we've not seen before, but just like a campus voting, no confidence in Michigan State's board, right? Uh and uh as Mike said, there's an interplay there between uh the president um whom, you know, is going one day and coming back the next and a board. Um I I think you have some of those same dynamics uh in campuses like Auburn and others where um there's nowhere else to to really direct uh hey you know who are we and where are we headed uh as a public institution than to uh include the board governance, right? So um and and you know actually many of the comments actually you the the thread pulls all the way through right from governance uh to senior leadership to transparency right to stewardship to fiscal integrity um you know Brian one thing that we've said is unfortunately um alongside no confidence votes other tools like financial exigency and and others I I it it I don't think many presidents wants to circumvent uh all of the policies and processes and even some of the traditions and culture. But when you come right down to it, uh the dissonance between culture and structure for an industry that has a hard time presenting enough revenue to pay its expenses is is where we find ourselves, >> which is not a good place. and and combined with the friction that you two described, I'm it seems like we'll see more of this. Uh thank you. Thank you both. We we have uh we have more questions coming in from the other end of the no confidence uh process. Christopher Okonnell asks, "What do you usually see as the outcomes of a no confidence vote? Is it possible for example for a president or chancellor to continue in their role successfully if they receive a vote of no confidence?" >> Yeah, great question. And there is some data on this. Um the it's it's typically the case that no confidence votes are described as symbolic or merely symbolic or having no legal consequence. Uh it's not like a vote in parliament where if you get a no confidence vote in parliament, you're out. However, the data suggests that in more than half the cases, a president who's been the target of a successful no confidence vote in half of those cases is out of office within a year. So, they may be symbolic, but they're influential. They're consequential as far as presidential tenure is concerned. Uh, and I think to directly answer another part of the question, yes, some presidents survive. In fact, they've survived multiple no confidence votes. >> Wow. >> Yes, there there are presidents who've have been uh enough of a lightning rod to have no confidence votes aimed at him more than once. Uh, so yes, they do survive. Their survival typically depends on first not being arrogant about what the no confidence vote means, taking it seriously and second having a board who stands up and uh and announces their support for the president. Those two things tend to be vital. Presidents need to take that vote seriously and respect it and perhaps talk about changes that they're now going to make. uh but without the support of a board, they're really on shaky legs. And I think that's why you see that while it's easy to to dismiss them as just symbols, they they pack a punch. No confidence votes pack a punch. We're we're mostly talking about the the US situation here. Um, we've got a question coming up for another country, but um, but I'm curious, you begin your book by discussing uh, no confidence votes in the British Parliament and the history there, but is there is there anything like a good no confidence vote in the US outside of higher red that we should look to for a model? >> Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, you have no confidence votes in in uh in against school superintendent. You have it uh against co coaches occasionally, >> public companies, right? Shareholders. >> There we go. There we go. Excellent. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you. Sorry to distract with that question. Uh uh Chris, that's a a terrific question to ask and uh again, I recommend the book as it explores stories like this. We have a related question coming from Reema Zenalden uh who asks, "Have you seen occurrences of votes of no confidence ahead of closures of an institution uh and Tony Synindelar gives an example almost of that?" He says he knows that Leslie University in Massachusetts has had multiple no confidence votes. They're still going but in significant financial straits. you know, and Mike was kind to do this, Brian, but since I had experienced one and he had not um >> Oh, boy. >> from somewhat of extraordinary circumstances. I mean, I think most people who are aware of the the Henderson State story in in Arkansas would say um you know, we were in a very unique position where a state system and a governor was basically trying to save an institution and it's really uh directly uh related to the the question from from Ireland. um you know in the the pre-closure um you know it's a unique opportunity to come in uh at the request of a system head and have to tell the governor uh well if we don't restructure and uh literally reduce about 40% of our spend in 5 months I can throw you the keys of the institution and about $80 million of debt and the state can figure out what to do with it right um and it tends to kind of uh up the political resolve to support uh whatever was being recommended for for somewhat of restructuring and at the time when you're trying to save an institution uh which uh you know in reflection many times I I've looked back and said it would been easier to close than restructure uh just because of the the the human toll uh but to release 45 tenur faculty members uh on one day um and eliminate you know, academic programs. Um, you know, the the no confidence vote I experienced was by an executive committee of the the the faculty senate, 13 of 15 had just been notified that they were going to lose their jobs, right? Um and uh one would expect right that um the reaction would be well I mean I think one of the elements I I would underline to to all of us participating is there's a real human toll right to the stress an institution goes through to uh one put its place uh in in in the mission of the state but people's livelihoods the community's livelihoods the largest employer uh within a community. So, um the it's just like change making uh on the offense. Uh the only two things that really impact that is time uh and and resources. And the less resources you have, the less time you have in the bigger decisions, which tend to magnify people's response. Um and uh aligning those Charles, I mean just going in terms of uh you know the political resolve. One quick example, uh we utilized an academic portfolio to to do a unit cost of instruction to make those decisions. Well, we didn't have the money to fund it. So the governor did, right? Because he realized we needed the data. That plays into this whole transparency, you know, element. So if your institution has a transparent and open and datainformed sets of decisionmaking and people know how to use them, the chances of getting into a no confidence vote situation are are are greatly reduced. Right. Um when you have to do it in crisis, um not so fun. Uh, but one thing I've been able to tell campuses over the last couple years, Brian, that I I I think has been a revolution or at least a revelation is they can be used for good just as equally as they can be used for cost containment, right? To invest in programs, feed the things that drive you. And if you have that buy in by faculty and faculty leadership to hey we can actually share in progress not just feel the pain together uh then again the chances of no confidence votes become less. >> That's quite a quite a struggle quite an effort to to facilitate such a process by which everyone is on board with that. on the on the question of financially troubled institutions and no confidence vote. Goddard would be a very interesting example. That's institution that has had struggled for years financially. It had two or three no confidence votes in different presidents as it struggled to to stay afloat. And someone asked a question about Lesie uh University. That one's interesting, Brian. I believe Leslie's president had three no confidence votes. >> Oh my gosh. uh I think her name was Steinmeire and u uh so there people do come back to the well uh with their discontent when things aren't aren't going well. Whoever asked the question about Leslie can correct me but I think it she faced at least three no confidence votes and I believe Goddard has closed. >> It has. >> Yeah, it has. So, but but that's a good example of one where financial struggles really um took a toll on multiple leaders. >> Yeah, it's one of several schools in Vermont to have closed. >> Yes. I I do think since we're on the the future trends forum that you know as we look ahead Brian right um and this is something that that Mike and I uh again our resolve is much higher today than it was even when we finished the book um that if it it comes down to really the bottom line it's going to require more shared governance not less right it's going to have more ownership in decisionm but that's going to require us, right? Again, to create the environment where we understand u what drives, right, resources, what helps make good decisions. Um and uh it it really requires a different set of competencies. I said this uh to Eric Kellerman at the Chronicle about a month in to to the Henderson story. Uh this was my third presidency, but it was a different job than I had ever done before. Right. I mean, it's it's as if the the capacity to make decisions and and the tools and skills I needed totally different. Well, I I can't say that. I I I take that back. I'm going to go back and say many of them I learned uh as a young president at a small Methodist college in North Carolina. Um so, some of the some of the data, some of the the tools we we've always had access to. Uh but the hard decisions, we kicked those cans down the road as as long as we could. U and when you run out of cans, then you make these decisions that can turn a campus and its culture upside down. >> Well, thank you. Thank you for this. I'm I'm and I'm I'm impressed and admire your equinimity in discussing both that experience um and and also your research along these lines. Um, we have a few questions that I want to bring together, but I also want to draw attention to a couple of points in the chat for everybody. Uh, there is a um, I think somewhat tongue and cheek, but also instructive uh, thread about ethics professors getting in trouble for behaving unethically. Um, and so Mark Hbert Wilson, our good friend, has actually shared some research in this, which is good to see. Um but we also have um uh Charles Larkin um is des has been referenced already in our conversation. Uh he mentions um his experience at the chair of as a chair of a board of trustees at a university in Ireland and he adds this the univers excuse me the union was behind the vote with lots of procedures. This had media coverage and created political and regulatory pressures. Uh what I was wondering from Mike and Chuck is what was their experience in the role of political leaders, regulators and officials on the survival of the CEO when such votes happened. I I'm I'm thinking you know we have so many interesting stories of this. I'm I'm reminded of um in uh Alabama uh Birmingham Southern College uh which was you know running running out of financial runway went to the state government and the state government could have helped them survive and and ultimately decided not to but but uh Charles mentions media coverage and I'm thinking about the role of social media of digital media in general. You've already both spoken a little bit to this. Would you have anything more to add about that? Well, you know what's fascinating is there is a playbook, right, on how these script out. People try to follow some strategic communications and some strategies that that that work through this. I'm always taken by how quickly, as Mike referenced, a board will issue a um affirmation of leadership soon thereafter, a no confidence vote. You know, it's just the steps you take. Um and and I think sometimes that may minimize right their their subsequent impact that perhaps maybe a conversation face to face or some engagement with leadership or an openness to I think one of the more radical suggestions we make is to make sure that you have voting faculty uh members as a part of your board. Right? So, some of those uh stakeholder groups actually sit across the table from each other and make decisions uh not just talk about the decisions that that they're going to make. Um I I I do think um and I I hate to reference this because it's it's full of interesting examples, but chapter six in our colleges on the brink uh book is chocked full of examples of the resistance. uh not the formal no confidence votes, but uh it's everything from the weaponization of students uh about losing their programs to uh as my good friend from Scott Carlson once told me, I'm just glad my name doesn't rhyme with duck because the hashtag that people attached to my um uh most social media post were not too nice, right? Um and uh you know um but again I I'll reference the question uh to have political alignments from those that govern institutions and allocate resources all the way throughout uh a campus is is critical uh when uh you're trying to solve uh the wicked problems. Oh, Ryan, you're on mute. >> Uh, sorry. For those who haven't seen this, uh, we hosted, uh, Mike and Chuck, um, um, a few years ago talking about their book, Colleges on the Brink. So, I put a link to that uh, in the chat. Um, and Charles, thank you for for expanding our conversation both geographically to uh, to the British Isles, but also institutionally. And Charles adds, "Oh dear." Uh, to contextualize, quote, "It's never a fun moment when the minister's special advisory calls you for a WTF conversation, followed by threats of appearing before the public accounts committee of parliament." Unquote. Uh, indeed. Indeed. We have we have more questions that approach us from a few different angles, and I I I want to share one, and this came from a a longtime forum participant who couldn't make it today for a schedule conflict. This is uh a splendid psychologist Dr. Anjanna Duta and she says in her experience faculty protests are typically a last resort. They happen when educators feel in consistently unheard misunderstood and unsupported. Increasingly universities seem to prioritize athletics, housing, facilities and technology at the expense of investing in their faculty and their core mission which is to educate students and which cannot be done without genuine attunement to faculty needs and training. So that was a a question but that was an observation. She wanted to offer her perspective as a faculty member. >> Yes, I agree with that. Um [clears throat] a kind of odd recent no confidence vote was at the University of Kansas. And I say odd because of the the way it was conducted against the chancellor Doug Gerard. Uh but at the root of that was a lot of discontent over excessive financial commitments to interccogiate athletics. A problem that's only going to grow um as universities continue to spend more and more money uh on compensation for athletes. But the the the diminishing of faculty senates uh and the and the attempt by conservative legislators in particular to silence faculty voices uh I I think can have a um a kind of um confounding effect here making no confidence votes more likely because it's it's like a last resort. uh I if you don't have regular kinds of exchanges with administrators, if you don't have faculty who are routinely involved in helping guide the budget of the university, if they're not knowledgeable about where revenue and expenses sit for the institution, um then that does tend to breed the conditions where dissatisfaction, resentment, and finally a kind of revolt against the administration are more likely. Indeed. Um thank you uh thank you for this. Um you gentlemen, you two have struck quite a nerve. Um the the questions in that are that are following now um really show just how powerful an account this is and and what a what a powerful tool thinking through uh no confidence votes is. We have two quick uh information questions. Uh, our dear friend Tom Hayes in the Houston area of Texas wants to know when was the first no confidence vote in a in a university or college president. >> Ah, [sighs] I'm not sure what the first one was. we they do go back into the 1980s and >> um some of the more uh notorious were uh against John Silber uh John and John Ston. Uh but I'll follow up and get back to you on that, Brian. I'm not sure when when we to give the the first first place prize to the >> Yeah, Mike. We may have to ask our good friend John Thielen to to help us with that one. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. This uh >> great question >> exactly. >> Um no, it's a good question. In fact, maybe uh Oh, I'm blanking his name. There was a researcher that you cited who did graduate study work on no confidence votes and the chronicle used his research. Um >> but we have a his master's thesis. Uh yes. and he had the first database basically that chronicled no confidence votes. Uh and I think the chronicle actually uh in its followup to that got o over 200 examples. Our book focuses on about 75 where provide some details about them. >> Uh but it's up around 250 at least. >> Thank you. Um and another uh uh information question comes from Kyle Krauss who asks are votes of no confidence primarily faculty-led or what is the prevalence of faculty staff or a college non-administration towards the administration president chancellor as a whole putting forth a vote >> we only considered in our book faculty-led no confidence votes. Uh you occasionally have alumni groups that take them. Um you've had one in the past two weeks uh towards the president of Kentucky State University in H.B.CU. >> Yeah. >> Um in Frankfurt, Kentucky, where the alumni took a vote. You have student organizations, student government who sometimes take them as well. In the case of student government, they typically don't do it uh without some cover or being accompanied by a faculty vote, but we only looked at ones that were u established and conducted by a faculty body believing that those were the ones that were most representative of the of the kind of phenomena we really wanted to focus on. >> Okay. Thank you. This this is this is terrific. Uh, by the way, also I want to give a shout out to a few people in the chat. Uh, when I asked about other examples of no confidence votes in the American situation, Alice Martinez described u a kind of revolution happening in the Los Angeles school district today. So, she and Mark Corbett Wilson have added some very useful details for that. But Mark Corbett Wilson who was very very busy in the chat also added a fascinating document which is uh Whittier College um doing a no confidence vote and publishing uh its results of uh who voted for what. Um so I take a look at that link friends. It's a it's a fascinating uh fascinating case. >> Um I'm conscious of running out of time and so I want to make sure that we hit all themes. There was one that we touched on but I think we could do a bit more of uh which has to do with interhead. >> I don't know if this was the first but I believe in our book the earliest no confidence vote we at least focus on was John Silber at Boston 1976 >> 76 okay Tom was guessing it was sometime since 1945. So so you're you're both on the on the same on the same track there. Uh a friend of ours uh elsewhere in the British Isles in Scotland uh Vei Decki asks, "What are your thoughts of financial transparency? Is that insufficient to prevent a note a vote of no confidence without procedural transparency such as active co-governance and predecision? And can procedural inclusion measurably persuade campus stakeholders to avoid a vote of no confidence even during severe financial retrenchment? >> Yeah, I think u the the devil is really defining what that procedural engagement really looks like, right? Um >> because um you know one of the first steps uh in a school restructuring is to have a thorough review of your policies and procedures, right? Just uh there there's some uh structural policies that won't actually allow you to save enough money to uh reallocate uh to to restore uh operating margins, right? So, uh, you can actually start going down a road, uh, that can cause quite a bit of of turmoil and still not get to the financial objectives that you're trying to meet to to be viable. Um, and, uh, you know, that's a great question that, uh, you know, I would push even a little further. It it's not just being transparent with data and procedurally aligned. Um but we have to have some incentivizing performance. we have to have some ownership uh in resource allocations much deeper into institutions because without it right you're you're really expecting you know um and I'll give you just the the two common elements you know your operating statements not your balance sheet so uh you can still have resources and and not be able to make money uh and budgets don't equal cash >> right >> um and and so people are making decisions every day uh and allocating resources every day that may be moving an institution much closer to the kinds of crisis where no confidence votes uh erupt, right? Um and uh that's that's actually the the narrative and and and certainly the the operating uh cultures that need to flip. Um and uh you can't expect campuses to to understand that if you don't inform them uh and have good data. I I know you've seen uh you know the there are certain faculty unions that are employing people to actually argue uh against uh institutional data uh to justify maintaining. But at the end of the day, uh, you know, if you don't bring in as much money that goes out every month and you have to use your savings account to to pay your operating, someday that's not going to end well, right? So somehow you have to in the smallest institutions with the smallest endowment, that's why you have to manage uh your cash uh because usually cash does not lie or can't be interpreted or argued with. Yes, there's a there's a lot of things to mitigate that, but it takes a much deeper ownership uh Brian and engagement uh in making decisions than what we're accustomed to uh at least on this side of the pond. >> I understand. >> Uh Brian, you uh raised a question about a database. Sean McGinness, >> that's it. was the graduate student who who developed the first database of no confidence votes and that served for many years as kind of the authoritative list of them. So for your listeners who want to pursue this, it's MC Kinnis, I believe Shawn McInness, >> shout out to Sean for doing that work. >> Um we have uh we had two questions come in from Alice Martinez and these will take us towards the end. Um and they're they're closely related. Uh first she asks, should we expect more transparency from presidents during times of uncertainty such as now? >> Yes. >> And uh every campus I have an opportunity. I said you've got as much stake in in knowing where you are current state and how you're going to get to to future state. And uh don't be afraid to ask questions. Um and uh especially how we allocate resources. And I'm saying that as a former president. I I would expect and and hope that my campus cared uh so much that they would challenge uh decisions on the basis of how how do you translate those to outcomes? So that's a simple answer. Uh Brian, yes. >> Yeah, I I agree. I I would say there are some circumstances and we're seeing those play out right now where if your university is under assault by the federal government in the form of a lawsuit or as Harvard recently has been or or others. I think there are some legitimate limits to what a president can say publicly about >> sure >> what's going on. Having said that though, I would also say the president ought to say as much as he or she can because silence is going to be interpreted as compliance >> or complicity >> which these days really pisses the faculty off >> and in the financial realm Brian the only power we have to affect real change is truth right so presidents that's a choice right presidents have and and we'll see it here over the next couple weeks, right? Record enrollments. Well, how how's that translating to actually net revenue, right? Um, so those are the kinds of elements where transparency and uh engagement and knowing where you are and and and what we need to do are really critically important. >> Well, thank you. Thank you. And and uh we have some nice comments coming in. Uh Charles Larkin says, "Knowing your cash position and EBITDA is critical." Uh Mark Wilson, who is on fire when often found Shawn McKinnus' homepage as well as his database. Um right there. So that's in the you know, we can see that. Um Al, I want to give Alice Martinez the last question because I know the answer to it. Um she asks, "Does the book talk about what presidents can do to avoid a vote of no confidence? Are there common best practices besides the obvious?" And I know the answer because the answer is chapter six uh where uh Chuck and Mike go through a series of 10 recommendations uh that I think are really really powerful and and practical things that can be done right now. Everything from giving a faculty member uh on a vote on the to doing a kind of audit or annual reflection on on governance. Um based on our conversation so far, Mike and Chuck, is it are there any of these recommendations that really stand out for you that you want to make sure people take away with them? Well, you're right. We talked about 10 of them in the last chapter. I I'd put them in in three categories, and you've alluded to them, Brian. One is governing board composition and functioning. Um, we think that faculty should have voting membership on governing boards. That is often not the case. um because the rationale has been that they'll be too captured by self-interests to be good board members, >> right? >> We don't find that any longer to be a very convincing uh argument. Uh so certainly the composition of boards need to take u this into consideration. We also think that um having faculty if you're not going to have them be formal members of boards having them be uh work as liaison to board in some kind of official capacity we think uh is maybe the next best thing. The second category has to do with building more campus competence in the finances and budgeting of the university by having uh ongoing mechanism whereby faculty and staff and and students have a role in the budget setting and monitoring process. Uh and the third is to do uh institutional assessments of how your shared governance is working. Um look for areas where a faculty senate can be given some decisive decision making uh role rather than trying to roll it constantly back and have the faculty senate become less and less of an influence. Um, so those three categories are where we spend a lot of our time with recommendations about how universities can prevent the preventable votes of no confidence. Now, those don't address things like misconduct where, >> you know, you do something bad enough to earn a no confidence vote, >> you're going to get one. uh but for the more uh substantive matters ones that involve the actual management of the institution those three categories I think are pretty important. >> Well, I think that's a fantastic fantastic moment to end on. We've we've blown past the end of the hour by a few minutes because you two are awesome and there have been so many great questions and this topic is so important. I I I want to wrap things up with just quickly asking every book you two write is important. Uh, how do we keep up with the two of you? Uh, Mike, I know we should just follow you on Forbes, uh, and look for your comments. >> Please do. [laughter] >> And, and how else can we keep up with your work? >> I tell you, just, uh, connect with us on LinkedIn or or, um, Mike's a little bit more active on on Twitter. We are willing to engage, Brian. Uh, if you'll DM us or or we'll share emails. uh would love to have conversations uh about any kind of supports uh that that we could provide um just conversationally. We love learning right from each other and uh you know I um I have to say this Brian because I'm so appreciative Mike and I just have struck uh the right balance. Mike uh can get thoughts on um and written word in ways uh that I envy every every project we work on. Uh and uh we do have a podcast series edup uh insights. Um you've been a guest Brian. So the edup arthur insights we focus specifically on journalists writers uh thought leaders u that express you know through media u where higher education is going. So uh lots of ways to connect and we'd we'd love to do it with each of you. >> Yeah. I post my articles on X and on Blue Sky so people can follow them there and I'd love to hear from them about what they think. >> Excellent. Excellent. Um, lots of ways to keep up. And in the chat, by the way, uh, if you want to grab a copy of the book, No Confidence, I just put in a discount code, uh, as well as a link to the, um, to the John's Hopkins page, so you can grab it for, uh, some money off there. Um, friends, we have had a wonderful hour plus of conversation. Uh, Chuck, Mike, thank you for doing this important, accessible work. Uh, and thank you for spending an hour with us. Uh thanks as well to the whole forum community uh for all of your great thoughtful resources, questions, your stories, your experiences. Um now we have a whole bunch of sessions coming up uh over the next uh few months uh including uh interactive session where we're going to do uh role playing based on the scenario. There's a lot to cover. I'm looking forward to all of it. Uh in the meantime everybody, as the fall semester comes rushing forward, I hope you're all well. I hope you're safe and sound and you're well prepared for what the fall semester brings. Take care everybody. We'll see you next time online. Bye-bye.