What’s Actually Stopping You From Doing Your Best Work

to ask myself, we all ask ourselves, how does the world work? But I absolutely believe that there is at least another dimension directly above us where the muse lives. We as writers, that's what we kind of access. That's what we channel. It's our job to connect to them, to open ourselves up to them. >> Steven Presfield, one of my favorite writers. There are very few people who do historical fiction better than Steven Presfield. his new novel, The Arcadian, which is incredible. It's part of this series he's working on. >> Working on the Telmon book when I once I know it's a western. Yeah. >> I know there are certain beats I have to hit. >> Yeah. >> And each time I say, "Oh, I I'm going to be constrained by this." And but you know, when you don't do it, if you don't have a gunfight at the end, Yes. >> it falls flat. Right. We're self disempowering. these uh demons that are out there, these physically real human beings, that's what they want. >> Yes, >> that's that's the end state they're trying to drive us, you know, into quote that uh is at the start of this book is something I carried with me for like 40 years. I don't know if I ever told you this, Ryan. No, no, tell me. Anyone who commits murder, who takes another life, and including soldiers who kill in war in an honorable cause, three times 10,000 years that soul shall wander, an outcast from felicity. >> Do you believe in reincarnation? >> I do. Absolutely. Tell me about that. I hope it's true. I definitely believe fiction. Not even as teaching. I think it's it's more than that. You know, it's a character. It's a human being. You have a choice between the fact and the legend. Print the How is your day set up? I find I'm most productive creative in the morning and then it sort of peters out like around lunchtimeish. >> Uhhuh. >> I can maybe do a double shift if I really want to, but usually all the good stuff's in the morning. >> Uhhuh. Do you like take the kids to school and then come back and that kind of thing? So, usually I split with my wife. Like this morning I had like a TV interview at 6:00 in the morning or whatever, but usually I I take the kids to school. I I run in town and then I try to get to my desk as soon as possible, like 8:30, 9ish. >> And then um >> your desk here in your office here? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I find if I'm not at the desk working in the morning, the every hour I'm waiting to get started is substantially decreasing the quality of what I bring to the table. >> I mean, I used to be exactly like that. Now, for whatever reason, like I go to the gym really early, I come home and then I I have to like take care of my correspondence and [ __ ] like that then. Really? If I if I don't because like when I finish work, I'm like I've had it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. >> So, I just crash. So, I have to get, you know, the administrative stuff out of the way. Then I I usually don't get to work till like maybe 10:30 or something like that. >> See, what I'm my thinking is, do I want to bring my best self to the administrative work? Like, I'm I'm definitely fried when I stop writing or doing whatever the deep work is for the day. I'm not my best afterwards, but I'd rather be halfassed in a meeting than than schedule some breakfast thing, be all about it, and then come to the office and >> Yeah. I don't know. Well, it used to be like that for me, but now it isn't. It's like if I don't do that administrative stuff, I'll never do it, >> right? Yes. Yeah. But maybe that's a sign you just do. >> Maybe I need an assistant. Yeah. H >> How old are you? >> 82. >> Do you still find you wake up, you're like raring like you you want to sit down and do the creative work? >> Yes, I do. But going to the gym, I feel like it's hell on earth, you know? I feel like it's somebody else in my body, you know, that >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I even find like I I'm I'm not really old, but I find that like >> I'll say >> what I what you can feel the decline, you know, like every year there's just a you're just a little bit less. >> How old are you now, Ryan? >> Almost 40. >> Oh my goodness. Wow. You look like you're 23. So, you know, >> but you know, like I I I even the like I'm freshest in the morning, but I could I can gut it out in the afternoon. >> I used to be able to I could work anytime, anywhere, you know, and now I I'm much the routine becomes more important as the >> ah yeah >> as the skills >> was always important to me. But what I find is I used to be able to work for four hours. >> Yeah. >> Flat out. You know, now two hours, you know, like even at my best maybe two and a half. Yeah. Yeah. >> And I'm just I'm fried. I have to stop. >> Yes. Well, that's an interesting question of that like I'm fried. I'm going to stop. There's a certain amount of self-awareness and a humility there. And then also though the person who says like you're tired after two sets at the gym, you don't want to like when do you listen to the voice that says like you've gotten the best of what you're capable of and when do you listen to the other part of you that's like no, you push past the voice. >> I I always listen. I I stop when I start making typos >> and you know I can really feel it you know >> and then it's like >> point of diminishing returns you know then it's just bad [ __ ] you know. >> Yeah. >> Plus I think like you want to leave a little in the water in the well you know for tomorrow you know. >> Didn't Hemingway say you're supposed to stop in the middle of a sentence. >> Did he say that? I don't know. >> It was the idea of you stop halfway through a sentence so you know what to do tomorrow. like you know you you're starting with a little bit of momentum cuz you're like >> I don't know if I stop in the middle of a sentence but I do want to know what's going to happen tomorrow >> if I can't >> I kind of like leaving it's like I got to clean this up in the morning. So that's something that my warm up is like fixing these little things >> and and because sort of that momentum and that enthusiasm and that sense of progress is so important. Now, but do you have a between books thing, Ryan, or are you always working? >> I'm always working. I got that from you. You >> I mean, I am too, but I always wondered how it is. Yeah. Yeah. >> I think sometimes there's a little bit of a period where you're researching and thinking about the next one, but I tend to find that when I'm on the downhill slope of one project, >> my mind is getting excited about the next one. And so, >> you can you can time it pretty close. You can go from vine to vine. >> Yeah. We we vine to vine. I like that. Yeah. So, I guess we we're we're on the same page on that one. >> Are you already on the next one? >> Not only am I am I on it, but I've finished it. >> Wow. >> Uh or the next Telmon book. >> Yes. >> Yeah. But then I have another one another sort of war of art type book that I'm >> starting on now. >> So, you've got one in the can and you're starting the next one. So, you're ahead. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, let's start let's talk about Telmon a little bit. I don't know if I wasn't paying attention. I it was very obvious to me that he's the same that that he's a reincarnation of the character from A Man at Arms. >> Yeah. >> But I didn't I didn't know he appeared in the other books. >> Ah yeah. >> Have you been doing this a long time? >> Yeah. But the first he was in he was in Tides of War and he was in the Virtues of War. Yeah. So that's probably 15 years ago. But as a minor character. Yeah. And then I sort of for like 10 years I thought I got to do something with this character, but I couldn't figure out what it was. So he was sort of, you know, asleep for about 10 years and then with a man in arms I thought, okay, >> for a couple hundred years thousand of years. >> That's that's his thing. Anyway, he evolved out of the two characters in those two books and then got its own book and now he's got two more. >> Did you watch the second Gladiator movie? >> No, I didn't. >> I thought it was pretty good, the the new Gladiator sequel. But there was famously a script floating around for many years written by Nick Cave, musician, >> that had Maximus because he dies at the end. So, what are you supposed to do with the character, right? Yeah. And and the device was that he is this reincarnated warrior spirit for like every gener shows him as a modern marine. >> They didn't see that. >> No, but it just it's a it's a fascinating device when you have a the character and the ethos of the character. Can they transcend their singular space and time? >> Uhhuh. Well, for me, yeah, the the the the concept of the thing, as you know, is that he has committed a crime in the deep past and is being punished. Yeah. By heaven for this. And his punishment is to be live lifetime after lifetime, always as a soldier. Yeah. Always killing and being killed. So that gives you the sort of the the license to track his evolution. >> Right. >> Like the new one that I've that I've just finished is a prequel. M >> like way back in time >> before A Man at Arms or between A Man of Arms and >> way before Man and Arms like set in an era where the continents drifted apart that far back. >> Wow. >> in history. >> Like a prehistoric character. >> Well, not prehistoric, but in my concept of what that time was like, there were great civilizations that had tremendous access to the occult powers that we've lost. Yeah. And the civilizations are gone now. totally, you know, under the land, whatever. >> And the same character Telmon is sort of, it's like the young Telmon. >> So, this is his origin story. >> Sort of. Yeah. Maybe I'll go back and have even more of an origin story. But a lot of the kind of points of view that he has about fighting only for money. You can sort of see in this book where that all came from, >> right? >> Yeah. Which is fun. You know, >> do you believe in reincarnation? >> I do. Absolutely. Tell me about that. I hope it's true cuz I don't want it just to end. >> Yeah. >> But you you know I mean you have kids right and when they were born they came into this world with their own personality right >> and even with their own calling right their own destiny in a way. Same thing with kittens and puppies and I'm sure horses and everything like that. So it does make you wonder where does that come from? >> Yeah. You know that what is that Tennyson's I think it's Tennyson Werdsworth intimations of immortality. Do you know that poem where he says >> we come into this life not naked or something like that but trailing clouds of glory do we come from God who is our home. So if it's good enough for Wdsworth it's good enough for me. Well, when I was reading the book, I was thinking of that famous Patton poem that he wrote where he believes he's the reincarnated spirit of all these different warriors. >> Yeah, that was such a great scene in the movie Pat. Yeah. >> You know, some version of that happened in real life. >> Really? >> Yeah. So, in in the movie they're in North Africa or Europe or it's some he's like this is where Rome and Carthage fell to describe >> it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. North Africa. Yeah. between the wars, he was touring a battle from the Battle of the Wilderness in the Civil War. >> Oh. >> And he's being told the how the battle went by uh the the the tour guide and he says, "No, no, no. That's not how it happened." And he starts to he was like, "I know. I was here as a boy. He was born well after the Civil War." >> And the Dosen's kind of like, "What's happening?" He's being corrected by Patton. And then finally, they're interrupted by this old man who says, "No, no, no. He's right. I was here. That's how it went. This Civil War veteran intervenes and and sides with Patton. >> Wow. What a great story that is. >> And and so for Patton, I think obviously there's some element of the the movie device in here, too. For Patton, that's proof that, you know, he was this reincarnated spirit. I would argue he just really loved history. So Patton's dyslexic >> and so growing up, his parents take him out of school and they just read to him orally >> till he's like 12. And I think he embibes these stories and his imagination and it become it becomes a part of him. So whether it's literally >> do you believe in reincarnation? >> I mean I don't I'm not so mystical as that but I do think there's some some way at the very least through story he's able to live multiple lives. I I certainly believe that literature is a form of reincarnation because we're able to take these lessons and these ideas and make them live again and then we can add their experience into our own lives. That's something Senica said that through the study of philosophy we annex all of the wisdom of the past into our own sphere. >> So I I believe in that. Do I believe in literal reincarnation? I don't know. uh >> it's not anymore uh out of the possibility to me of the other sort of religious ideas. So >> ah yeah well and also in the movie Patton there was a thing about uh the German officer that was supposed to get into Patton's head which says he's going to invade Sicily because Alabiades invaded Sicily. That's what the next thing is going to be. Yeah. >> I don't know that whether there was any truth to that at all but it's interesting. >> It's funny Jet Lee was here yesterday. you know, the kung fu master. >> Oh, really? Wow. >> And he some interesting people in here. >> He he believes in reincarnation. And he was saying the proof of that for him was as a young kid, he gets sort of selected to be in this sort of Chinese school of martial arts. All the kids are are selected for their physical attributes. But why did he pick it up faster than the other kids? >> And he believed it was past knowledge that he was drawing on. >> Uhhuh. Interesting, huh? I mean, I've done past life regressions, you know. Have you ever done that? >> No. >> It's uh, >> you know, they sort of, actually, this was a friend of mine who did it for me who was a hands-on healer. Yeah. >> And you, they put you on like a table, like a massage table, and kind of work on you to get you deep deep deep deep deep into that state, you know, and then they say, "Okay, now you're going to come out into a place. Tell me what you see." >> Yeah. >> And you start to see stuff, you know. Yeah. And you and you talk. And uh I've uh actually in the new Telmon book I started off with a something that really happened to me in a past life regression. So you know and and a feeling in it. I'll give you sort of the short short version of this. I was on an ancient battlefield >> and I was a like a kid >> and I was looking for the the fight was over. There were bodies everywhere on the battlefield and I was looking for my brother and I couldn't find him and I knew he was dead because he he would have found me if he was alive. M >> so the short version of it was I I buried him on this battlefield and as this is taking as we're doing this past life regression I felt although he was dead waves of love coming >> wow >> from him like I never felt in my life not even close >> from any you know overwhelming and so I just thought I don't know what that means but there's something to that and I I remember my friend who was doing that when we kind of came out of it. He said, "You can always go back to that. You can always access that >> that love." >> Yeah. >> But I have not been able to. >> Huh. >> I I many times I've tried >> but it's it sure made a made a tremendous impression on me because never in my life in real life have I felt anything like that. >> Do you have a brother? Uh, I do have a brother. Oh, but this brother in the thing was actually my friend that was doing the hands-on healing with me. So, which he's always has felt like a brother. Anyway, who knows what it's all about. But in any event, I that really made a deep impression on me like there's got to be something to this. >> Well, at the very least, I think there's something to the kind of mystical supernatural thing you're talking about. Like I was just reading an early copy of Robert Green's new book, which is all about sublime experiences. No, I'm really looking forward to that one. >> It's so It's so >> We've been waiting for like seven years for this. >> I know. I know. And And when you read it, the the amazing thing is when you read it, you're like, I see where this is what I told him. I was like, I hope this comes off as a compliment. I see the seven years. >> Uhhuh. >> Like like I see why it took seven years because it's just at another level. >> Like the the writing is better. or not that he's not an amazing writer, but in one of the scenes he tells the the story of the temple of Demeter and the the the mysteries that they would go and and it really feels like you're there, which is funny because in another sections is about historical sublime, like how you can connect with history that you haven't experienced. So, it's all very similar to what we're talking about here, but just the ancient relationship with those sort of things you can't explain and the sort of >> what you're talking about the we we live in a hyperrational objective. >> Yes. >> Sort of distilled world that that kind of tries to keep all that stuff at the move. >> Yeah. You know, God bless him for even thinking of doing writing a book about the sublime. Who else would think about that? Yes. I mean, nobody, right? and you know so such a great contribution you know to have a mind like his you know that's going to really commit God bless him >> but do you think that because I mean you believe like you you say a prayer to the muses you believe in reincarnation you you believe in uh the Don like the the voice that talks to you uh what what does all that mean to you like that's clearly an important part of your both your sort of practice as a person but also your creative practice Well, it means like what is I I ask myself, we all ask ourselves, how does the how does the world work? >> Yeah. >> You know, and and like you say, our dumbed down world says, "Oh, we're only this body." Da da da da. >> But I absolutely believe that there are is at least another dimension. >> Yeah. >> Directly above us where the muse >> lives, you know, angels, whatever. and that we as writers and I'm really interested to hear what you say about that. >> That's what we kind of access. That's what we channel. That's where the books come from or movies or everything like that. But a part of me, of course, is really skeptical. I'm, you know, I'm born here. I'm I have a material body. So, I really try to reinforce within myself the reality that there are other forces and other entities out there that are on our side. >> Yeah. >> And are aiding us. And it's our job to connect to them, to open ourselves up to them. And so if that's the sublime, I don't know what what you call it. It's the divine anyway. >> Yes. There's something beyond us that we don't control and can't fully conceive and certainly can't comprehend. I I'll concede to all that. You know, there's there's something I mean, just one of the ways you're in touch with that as an artist or a creative or anyone that makes something is that sense of like where did that come from? >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? >> I mean, look at what you've created here. You know, a kid from Riverside, right? You know, >> uh Sacramento. >> How did this or Sacramento? You went to school in Riverside. >> No, that's true. But I just mean like like just where did those words come? like you're sitting there and you're almost like you're typing the end of a sentence that you're in the middle of. Like how like this goes back to Plato like how do you know how do you know this? >> Yeah, >> there's there is something fundamentally otherworldly about the the creative act because it it's coming from somewhere or something. Even if even if you want to just tell me it's this emergent thing happening in our brains, it's crazy. >> I mean, you've heard so many stories about like musicians that are driving down the freeway and suddenly a song >> Yeah. >> completely rushing to get it down. >> Yes. >> How does how does anybody I mean it could be the subconscious, you know, I suppose, >> but I don't I don't know. That's what I don't uh >> I mean but even the subconscious it's pretty like so it's like your brain and then you have another part of your brain and it's just like >> there was this theory that at one point our brains like you know we have two hemispheres of the brain. Have you heard the the bicameal mind theory? >> No >> it was sort of popular and then discredited but it's kind of this out there theory that like at one point we had two brains and you know now our brains they they communicate with each other right? But but like what if they didn't like what if if they were separate and and like the ancients would hear the voice of God like go do this or you need wooden walls or you know all the the different things. What if that was just one side of the brain talking to the other side of the brain but they they didn't recognize it as such. >> But even that's insane. Like the idea that that like you can know something and not know it. Even your idea of the resistance, it's like I want to do this and then there's some part of me that doesn't want me to do it and then I can make myself do it. That's crazy. What how is any of that work? It's there's something just >> unfathomable about that. >> Yeah. >> And what do you think, Brian, about your own >> I mean, a big part to me of writing is grinding >> when it ain't coming, you know, and the floodgates aren't open. Yes. Do you experience that as well? >> Oh. where it's not going well or it's not fun >> or it's just, you know, the muse isn't really there pumping it into you, but you still got to do it, you know, and >> I'm kind of in the middle of that right now because I'm doing a very different kind of writing and I'm doing a biography >> and so who? >> Uh, Stockdale. >> Oh, good for you. >> Yeah, I'll tell you all about it. But I'm not making an argument, >> right? like I'm having to portray a chronological narrative >> of a person's life and understand why they did what they did. So it's a slower pace of writing because >> it's not that emergent of like what do I want to say or what's interesting to me I have to it. So each sentence is a lot slower >> and it's more methodical and so I'm having to exercise a different kind of discipline to do it. you're limited by that it's a reality that you're talking about. You can't just make it up. >> If I know, hey, I want to talk about this >> and then I don't know what that is, then I have to go find that thing. >> That's the, you know, like it's like, okay, I'm describing like right now he flies these top secret missions over Laos right before the Gulf of Tong. >> He's not still alive, is he? >> No, he's not. But I have hours of oral history and I have all but but it's like okay so so it's like oh he he mentions off-handedly in a letter flying these missions over Laos and now it's like >> even if I want to write five sentences about this I have to go understand the whole thing from start to finish what kind of planes they were flying when it was why it was what did he know what did the and I was actually thinking about that when I was reading your book because >> historical fiction unlike I would imagine literary fiction is So based in fact, I felt like I was able to notice in your book just how hard you had to work for each one of those sentences. Uses aside, you had to know what this part of Spain looked like and how horses operated, all of that. You can have all the creative desire you want, but if you don't have the raw materials, >> although in historical fiction, you can make up a lot of [ __ ] that nobody knows you're making it up, you know, >> because they're not going to actually go look up. >> Nobody's going to say, "Hey, that's not how it happened." You know, but actually what you're doing is I guess it would be narrative non-fiction. Sort of like uh Blackhawk Down where you're you're limited by what actually happened. Yeah. But yet you really don't have the license to like put words in anybody's mouth. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Um >> or even feelings in their head. >> Yeah. >> Or you know if you want to say it was sunny, >> you have to see if it was sunny or not. >> Yeah. Is Joe Berley working with you doing research on this thing? Ah >> he's doing amazing. >> Ah that's great. I you know it's great that you guys have connected and that that he's helping you. Yeah, cuz I'm sure this is helping him tremendously on whatever the next phase of his career is. >> I think so. But it's it's like I just logistically don't have the bandwidth to go through boxes and boxes of papers. >> It does. Yeah. Yeah. >> But but then >> other than Robert Caro, you know. >> Yeah. The turn every page thing is good in theory. >> Yeah. >> And then that's a lot of pages. >> That is a lot of pages. Yeah. >> Yeah. But yeah, I have to read all these letters and stuff. It's been but it's been fascinating to sort of go through this person's life, >> but I don't think you're making that much up. >> It's real. >> Maybe it pretends it it No, the point is that it feels real. That's it. >> Yes. But like when you're describing, I don't know, a horse charging a group of soldiers or an escape through the mountains, is that all coming from in here or do you have pictures in the sense like how are you putting me in 15 16th century Spain? >> I could just give you one example. Yeah. Have you ever read the memoirs of Baron Marau? >> No. >> M A R B O T. >> No. >> Oh, fantastic book. you know, and he was a in the Napoleonic Wars, he was a Hassar, right, with a great Shico things and everything. And he tells one story about he had a a horse, a mayor named Lieette who was like this crazed battle horse and how Lzette would like kill enemies on the field, bite them, pull them off the off the back the horse, and trample them, you know, and and he couldn't stop her, you know, and so I thought, well, I stole that, you know. I I immediately recognize it. Yes. You know, so I guess you draw from a lot of sources, but there's one thing in there I talk about a particularly cruel kind of snafle bit that they use in this kind of and that's completely fiction, you know? >> It just seemed like uh it seemed like we needed something like that cuz I wanted to contrast it to this horse that doesn't need a bit or a bridal or anything. So anyway, I'm not sure. >> But but if you don't know horses, you don't know that that's not real. >> That's true. On the other hand, I don't really know horses, but I've I've so I've made up a lot of stuff. But to my amazement, I just was talking to a friend of mine who is a real and he said, you know, that's exactly what it's like. And when I go really >> So do you think does part of the reincarnation thing for you is that how you suddenly know 15 century Spain? Like you're drawing on some? >> I don't No, I wouldn't go that far. I think it's just, you know, fiction just making something. I mean, you have a horse that you need to have him do something, you know, so you make him do it, you know, and try to make it realistic, you know. >> Yeah. >> But, you know, back to grinding for a second. >> You know, Robert Green, this is one of the things I love that he talks about tedium. >> Yeah. >> That that's a huge part of any, you know, wildly creative thing. You know, I'm sure on the sublime, he was grinding many, many months, you know. Well, he talks about in the intro of the book because so he had I don't think I'm spoiling anything, but so he had he had planned to go on this sort of exploration of the sublime, exploring the world, traveling all these places. Then he had this stroke a few years ago. >> Yeah. >> And so he's not housebound, but but his world is much more constrained. >> You know, he used to like to ride his bike and do all this stuff and he can't all that stuff is harder. He had to sort of turn inward. I mean, he has he can't type, so he he writes by hand. >> Uhhuh. And he was talking about how the book itself forced him to create the sublime within himself. >> Ra like it's easy to feel sublime looking at the Grand Canyon, I guess, right? Or traveling over the jungles of Peru or something, >> but it's harder to >> do it in your backyard. >> Yeah. >> And so that for the tedium for him was just like the imagine writing the book out by hand. I >> Yeah. I can't I I literally cannot imagine mine wouldn't be readable for starters, but um >> I that's not how I need to I move stuff around to I have to use a word processor. But doing it when you don't want to do it is obviously >> uh it's it's again it's easier when you have the momentum and everything's going well and it's flowing. But those I find those days are few and far. >> You're an inspiration to me because I know that you're doing the same [ __ ] I'm doing. you know that you're facing the same stuff and and and overcoming it the same way, you know. So >> So I had a resistance question for you as I was talking to this person. I know I won't put them on the spot, but she was she was saying like because of everything that's happening in the world, she's having trouble being creative. Like everything's terrible, everything's depressing, everything's pissing her off. And she just hadn't been able to write. And I was both sympathetic and then also angry about this. Like I was I was like you can't surrender in advance like like I was like you can't let them take this from you. That was my feeling. >> But then I was thinking about it more and I was wondering if that >> that felt like a a form of the resistance for me. Like despair as a form of the resistance. It doesn't matter. You mean >> Yeah. Or but I I've felt it too. It is like despair as like it doesn't matter. despair as in because everything in the world like like allowing that external stuff to get in and take from you the thing that you're supposed to be doing or the work that you're meant to do. >> I would say that's exactly it. You know, it is it's a it's a form of resistance. If Victor Frankle can do, you know, what he did under the conditions that he did had to do it, >> you know, >> but it is easy to fall into that. But that's in and in many ways I think that these these uh demons that are out there, these physically real human beings, that's what they want. >> Yes. >> That's that's the end state they're trying to drive us, you know, into where we're where we're self disempowering. >> Yes. >> You know, because it's just the [ __ ] is just so thick, you know. >> Well, that's what I was thinking. I was like, if an authoritarian president came to you and said, "You can't write your book or I will kill you." >> I think most people would. I mean some people would okay I won't do it but other like I think a real artist would would I'm going to do it even more now right you know like you would immediately fight back against overt censorship or control >> and then here >> you're doing that voluntarily like by by by letting them get in your head or depress you or distract you. You're actually letting them take the thing from you but without without force. >> Like you say it's surrendering in advance. Yeah. >> Yeah. which we're all doing a lot of, you know, in any event. I mean, to me, these past few years, what's kept me sane is being is able to work. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> right. >> And I hang on to that, you know. >> Yes. >> If I wasn't able to do that, it wouldn't be it'd be a bad situation. >> Yes. And and I think it's like the work is more important than ever. Like Yeah. Don't don't surrender it without a fight. Like and if you like I guess the Stokes would say too like you're letting them take the most important thing like they can the Stokes would say you know they can throw you in jail they can take your property they could ban or burn your books but if you let them take the sort of the one thing that's actually yours which is like the act itself or the creativity itself that's behind the walls of the citadel. So so yeah that only comes from surrender >> praise. Yeah. Yeah. And also I think what it whatever it is that comes through Stockdale or whatever it is whether we know it or not it's an answer to that to that external world and probably in a better way than if we were writing an essay or something like that. >> It it's being shaped by what's happening. It's inherently a response to what's happening in the world. Often in ways that you don't fully understand. >> Yeah. In fact, I would say always in ways that you don't at least I don't understand. Yeah. Until it's out there. Yeah. >> Yeah. Because when we look back at fiction from a 100 years ago or 200 years ago, we see how much it's a reflection of the spirit of the times or rebellion against the ethos of the time. >> And the the person was probably much more interested in just like solving the puzzle of the they they didn't fully understand they were representative of a time and place >> and that they were teaching lessons to the future necessarily. >> Let me ask you a question here on the subject of this podcast. >> Yes. two parts. >> Okay. >> How do you decide or or the on who the guests are and then that's part one and maybe it's just because they apply or they want, you know, will you take me on the show? >> And then is there an overarching intention that unites or are you just trying to squeeze the lemon out of each person that's that's before you and the that's in the table? Well, you know, it's I think with every medium, there's always the sort of constraints of it. You know, a TV show's 22 minutes or, you know, and you got to keep people going or they don't, you know, stream it or watch the commercials or whatever. You know, a novel's got to be a certain amount of >> there's there's constraints of the thing that you're thinking about. So, at some level with a podcast, you're like, are people going to want to hear from this person? You know, are there going to be good clips because everything is now clipped. So at some level you think about all the the >> do you actively reach out to certain people and and invite them. >> So you also have your own individual interests and curiosity. I want to talk to this person. I read this. I thought it was good. >> And then there's also like who do you have access to? I would not have woken up on a random day and said, "Hey, I want to talk to Jet Lee." >> But like he was going to be in town for a book signing and I thought >> maybe he has something interesting that I've never heard before. So I think for me it's more you know and then obviously I sometimes am thinking like how connected are they to stoicism or >> you know am I a fan of their work but so it's kind of a multi- >> sort of set of boxes you're hoping someone ticks and then I'm also like is it is it going to be fun for me to talk to because I have to it's going to take an hour of my life or or >> preparation on top of that. Yeah >> totally. But is there an overarching intention through the the the podcasts? >> Sometimes. I think it's more like uh there's a handful of points I think it would be interesting to get their perspective on and so I'm sort of walking them through that. >> Do you listen to a lot of podcasts? >> Um not really. No. >> Huh. >> Uh I probably should. I feel guilty that I don't. But I don't have, you know, hours or three hours or whatever it is to listen to. >> I don't listen to many three-hour podcasts. I'll I'll tell you that. >> Yeah. >> It's an interesting medium because I think it feels like you're being informed about something, >> but oftent times you're just listening to two people [ __ ] >> Uhhuh. >> So, you know, I I try to not do that. >> Uhhuh. >> Um, it's an interesting medium. And then I also am like I feel like I'm collecting as part of what Daily Stoke is all these different things. And then sometimes I'm I don't realize that, oh, okay, later I have this idea. I want to do a a deep dive on a certain topic and then I actually oh you know what I talked to Steven Presfield about that three years ago when he was on and then I can take that and sort of put it into a larger framework. So sometimes you don't >> I kind of also see it as a form of research >> like you're you're just gathering and accumulating and you don't >> you don't totally know where it's going to go until much much later. Do you know about Brian Graasier and how he used to like invite himself to people interesting people's Yeah. So that's a bit like I would imagine hosting a podcast, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. You're baking into your life regular indepth creative, curious, you know. >> Yeah. perspective widening conversations, which like >> the fact that you also get paid for it and it grows the like all those are extra benefits, but just like having some good conversations a couple of times a week is good. >> Yeah. >> To me, the only part of it that feels like work is when it's not checking that box. Like when I'm like, why am I talking to this person again? And then I I only agreed cuz like they have a big name or a friend was like, I think you'll really like talking to them and then I do and I don't like But the other thing I would imagine that's great about it is you're actually talking to the person. Yes. >> You're not just watching a video clip or something like that, you know. Yes. >> And >> who knows what goes on, you know. Yes. On on other levels, you know, if they had the Dollaly Llama hunt or something like that, you know. >> Yeah. And I think at le definitely for my generation, but I think societywide, >> we don't just like >> call someone and talk on the phone for two hours, you know? like it's just not really culturally how we communicate anymore. >> And you know, you think about like even this book I'm working on now, every week from basically the day Stockdale left for the Naval Academy to when he was shot down, he wrote a multi-page letter to his parents. >> Really? and and they wrote obviously he's responding to letters which I don't have but but like that kind of communication is really a thing of the past. >> Yeah. Unfortunately. Yeah. >> And so just that kind of indepth ongoing conversation I find that the one of the nice parts about having a podcast is that it's baking that into the life with a professional justification. >> Yeah. You wonder what did people write about? Was it like journaling when you were writing? >> He was I mean it's amazing. He's just describing everything that he's going through and his feelings and his thought. Like it'll be interesting. Biographers of 50 years from now, what will they draw on? >> Text messages, emails. >> Will they? >> You know, there's there's in some ways there's more material, but also less material because you're not sitting down and really capturing >> Yeah. >> the moment. >> It's been a long time since I actually sat down and wrote anything like in depth, you know, like to your parents or something like that. what I'm thinking about. You know, >> when I whenever I go on trips, I I write postcards to my kids, just like little little things. They used to be excited when they would come in the mail, and now they don't get it. So, now I I don't even mail them. But, you know, I have I I have I have this sort of collection. >> How old are your kids now? >> A 9-year-old and a six-year-old. >> Oh, wow. I remember when it was two and five or something. >> It's crazy. It's >> Wow. >> You know, I had this weird experience the other day. I talked to someone and I remembered meeting his daughter. She had just gotten her driver's license. And I was like, "How's your daughter doing?" And he was like, "Oh, yeah. You know, she's in the Air Force. She's a fighter pilot." And I go, "Whoa, when did that?" And he was like, he was like, "We last saw each other 10 years ago." >> Wow. >> And I was like, "Oh, I have a I basically have a 10-year-old." >> And it was like in in my mind, my kid hasn't gone from driver's license to fighter pilot. My kid is still the same as he was rough. You know, like, you know, where time kind of sneaks up on you? >> Yeah. It was a like I didn't think so much time had elapsed that someone could go from like barely a teenager to >> flying at 18 or whatever. >> But that time had happened because we measure time differently according to like how we're experiencing. >> Kids are kids stay kids for a long time, you know, >> and then suddenly they're not. >> Yeah. >> And that was >> Yeah. This one and the last one, they both have a basically a a young girl roughly the same age. Yeah. >> Why why do you think that character spoke to you? >> Oh, that's a great question. I'll give you sort of a longish answer. Both the Arcadian and the man at arms are westerns essentially. They take and and they follow the conventions of a western >> and the character of Telmon is a gunslinger, right? He's a man of violence that's sort of fixated at a kind of a lower level of uh evolution. >> Yeah. And in westerns there almost always is a vulnerable character. Yeah. Maybe a child, maybe a woman >> that the hard like even the seven samurai which is a a western, right? They have the villagers that they're going to defend, you know, against the bandits. So that's what this young girl character is for Telmon. She's the one who kind of humanizes him. >> And the the first person that he has actually had a real relationship with. >> And so that's actually for like 10 or 15 years. I was I knew I wanted to write a book only about Telmon. >> Mhm. >> To give him his his book, but I couldn't find the way into the story. And somehow I had the thought that just popped into the muse, you know. >> Yeah. >> A girl, a deaf mute girl. >> Yeah. and what that would bring out in him and then that the deaf mute girl is like a a warrior in her heart and so she becomes like you know his kind of alter ego in a way. So that sort of split the diamond for me as soon as that happened right >> for a in a man at arms. And then in the Arcadian I thought part of my belief in reincarnation is that we don't travel alone through time but we travel as part of a little constellation of other >> Yeah. >> beings, male, female, older, younger, and we're all kind of living out a destiny together. Yeah. >> So I just thought I'm going to bring her absolutely back. you know, yes, different, but you know, with the same sort of relationship. >> And it's like he's having to learn the same lesson kind of over and over again or get to a higher plane by learning a different version of the same lesson with >> we all have to learn lessons over and over and over, you know? >> Yes. Yeah. It's like you're it's like you're playing the video game to this level and then you're playing it to a little bit further, but you're starting over at the beginning each time. >> Yeah. And then I realized as as I'm working on this, I flash back to The Legend of Bagger Vance, the book, not the movie. Yeah. >> And I realized that's about reincarnation. And it's about the same, which I didn't even realize at the time. And it also is a a constellation of characters moving through lifetimes together. So I guess I must believe it somehow. It's in my DNA somehow, or at least I think it makes a good story. >> So will the third one also have a young girl? >> Uhhuh. Yeah. >> Interesting. So that he's faded to sort of meet this same character or muse. >> Yeah. Although it's a little different in the in the in the upto-date one. >> Yeah. But but but the idea is that this encounter is what he needs in each of the journeys to be >> Yeah. >> Like every uh this is obviously very different, but it's like the Bond movie has >> Yeah. You know, there has to be this character and this character and this character and then they're reenacting some version of the same >> Yeah. sort of arc even though it can it can end differently and different things can happen but like these are the ingredients you need to to make the thing work just every western has >> conventions of the genre yeah >> yes David Epstein do you know who that is he wrote this book called range that's really good he's a sports journalist is really great I'll give you but his his new book is called inside the box >> and his point is that actually it's the it's the I think the subtitle is the power of constraints >> and his point is that you think you want total artistic freedom or you know unlimited resources but it's actually in like in literary fiction or genre fiction like it's the constraints of the genre that are create the emerging quality of the art. Yes, >> the a haik coup being a classic example of like the poem is only possible if >> you can do 575 and and it's >> incredibly limiting but then also explosively >> powerful in what it enables. It's it's really interesting how those genres do have those hard and fast rules and I know like for me if I'm if I'm like working on the Telmon book when I once I know it's a western Yeah. >> I know there are certain beats I have to hit. >> Yeah. >> And each time I say I'm going to be constrained by this and but you know when you don't do it >> Yes. >> that if you don't have a gunfight at the end Yes. >> it falls flat. Right. >> Yes. So, it also can help guide you through the story because you say to yourself, "Well, I know I have to hit this beat. I know I have to hit that one in in this order and so you sort of can can lay it out." >> Yeah. And it's it's interesting how sometimes the artist is is aware of the conventions or sometimes they call them tropes, which to me feels a little judgmental as a word, but but like sometimes they're independently discovering them a new, right? Like some you you hear George Lucas bases Star Wars on the hero's journey, right? >> And then it's like but was JK Rowling doing that or did she just intuitively sense you know based on her having read other story? Like some sometimes it's very conventional in the sense it's aware of the conventions. Then other times the person that's just where the piece of the puzzle goes and you you're discovering it again. It's by sort of instinct. Like in a man at arms, the characters go uh enter a landscape beyond the law, which is kind of the Sinai western convention, the Sinai desert, right, to where they're going. >> And as I'm writing this thing and they're just entering the desert, for some reason I popped into my head, they encounter a character. It's a man covered in bees, you know, >> bees like >> bees buzzing around, you know, and he he kind of gives him a little gift and he tells him a little something. And later on, I was reading, I think, in Joseph Campbell, the concept of the threshold guardian. >> And I thought, >> yes, it just >> instinct just made, you know, I thought, oh, that's now I really I'm glad that guy was there, you know, right? And he needed to be there. So, it does, I think, work that way. JK Rowling probably is just, you know, going on instinct. I need somebody to do a little something here and it works. >> You could argue maybe that's the reincarnation thing, which is generations and generations of people telling and retelling and >> Yeah. >> like the story of the Odyssey is like in our DNA at this point. >> Yes, it is. Yeah. >> I was just reading this article that was like all the epics that we don't know about. There's the the collection of epics that we know and some were discovered later like Gilgamesh was discovered in the 1800s even though people had known it for thousands of years. >> But it was saying that there's all these epics that we know the titles because they appeared or different references to them like we we have a segment of it here. What the hero's journey isn't like oh these five stories right it's it's like >> thousands and thousands of works of art most of which were lost. Even the epigraph I I love epigraphs. Your epigraph on this book. The second one's Mark's sur which we should talk about. But they just discovered 30 lines of empeted this week. >> Well, really they discovered it in like >> See, that would be exciting to you and to me a piece of papyrus. They just they discovered 30 new lines from >> I can't wait to see where it is. What? And I think they discovered it like in a jar that was or in a mummy something like they because they would use the old Greek pieces of paper in Egypt. They would buy them and reuse them and they found them wrapped in mummies. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Isn't that incredible? >> Huh? Do you do you know what the piece of paper was about or what the quote was about? >> I was reading it. I'm not uh >> where can I find it? >> I I will send it to you. But you're just like, "Wow, this is still happen. We we have only a fraction of the collective creative >> fruits of humankind. >> Only Joseph Campbell knows all those stories. You and I don't, you know. >> Yes. Yes. >> Your book starts with a Markus epigraph which is one of my favorite quotes. Life is warfare and a journey far from home. And I the first time I read this took it as being metaphorical. >> And then 10 years ago or so, I gave a talk in in uh in Budapest and I was flying into Budapest. And so I was like, I know nothing about Budapest. I was like, I should read about it. And so I'm reading about it on the airplane. This is embarrassing, but I'd already written two books about stoic philosophy at this point. >> And it hit me that Mark realized he'd been to Budapest. >> Oh, >> as I'm reading like the Wikipedia page, wait, >> we're so far from Rome. This is insane. How could the how could the emperor of Rome >> been in Budapest? And go down this rabbit hole, I'm looking at this map of like the known travels of Marx. I mean, he dies in Vienna and and I go, "Oh, that that quote that life is warfare and a journey far from home." Like, it hit me in a new way because I had the physical manifestation >> of how far he had traveled. >> And and then I realized I think he was being a lot more literal >> than than I took that quote to mean. >> Oh, I took it the the opposite way. Okay. Okay. I thought I I know the guy traveled long ways, you know, journey far from home. And to me, talk about reincarnation. Yes. I mean, I sure I think the same metaphor you thought. I thought far from home is our our place among the stars, you know, and life here. We're down in this purgatory with its warfare. >> Oh, >> and we're a long way from our real home >> beyond the stars, you know. >> That's a very interpretation. >> Saw it. Now, maybe he he probably didn't mean it that No, I mean I think it's probably working on on a bunch of different levels and and he probably also means like life is fighting and arguing and struggle and you know it's lonely and you're takes you away from home but I mean he spends the majority of his reign or large chunks of his reign you know fighting with the Roman army in these frontier provinces >> and and you go I I think it works on both levels but you go oh this guy wasn't dealt the hand that he wanted to be dealt. >> He had a nice palace. had a great way of Yeah. >> But he didn't get to live in it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's so true. Yeah. Wow. But he sure made the most of it, you know. >> But I I mean what I took it to mean as an epigraph was is is like some version of the hero's journey that it's you got to fight for things. It takes you far away from where you want to be and and it's also in a way a battle to get back home. >> Yeah. Yeah. And the other epigraph just uh for anybody that's a writer here, this is a a quote from Impedicles who I'm not even sure who Impedicles was just he was a Greek philosopher >> a preoccratic philosopher who I was just reading about went for because of this discovery. Do you know how he died? >> No. >> Pedicles believed this is this is one of the dangers of the muse stuff we've been talking about. So he believed that all his works were a gift from the gods and that he himself had become immortal through his gifts and creativity. And so he died throwing himself into a volcano to prove that he was a god. >> Oh wow. >> So you got to be careful. The the line between uh note to self stay away from volcanoes. >> The line between uh mysticism and insanity is thin. But in any event, the quote that uh is at the start of this book is something I carried with me for like 40 years. I don't know if I ever told you this, Ryan. No, no, tell me. >> I I I don't even know where I discovered it, >> but I read it and I thought, "This is fantastic." Whatever. And I thought there's a story in here, but I had no idea what it is. And I just kept it with me forever. And what the heart of the of the quote is for is he empetedly says in this really high-flung archaic way anyone who commits murder who takes another life and including soldiers who kill in war in an honorable cause three times 10,000 years that soul shall wander an outcast from felicity. And so I thought there this is k this is justice this is karma. And I thought, this is this is my character, Telmon. Yeah. So, when I finally put those two together, I thought, oh, he's led these pre these many lives. Yes. And this is why >> he's serving out his sentence. >> He's serving out his sentence. Not that he was an evil guy. He was just a soldier that fought in war. >> And >> so, anyway, if you're a writer and you've got a quote floating around in your head, hang on to it. Yes. Because it may, you know, come to fruition at some point when you can't predict it. I mean the obstacles is the way came because I wrote down this passage in meditations and I thought oh there's something here and then you know many years later that became that book and there's something magical about that too where you save something and then it pops into your head oh this is exactly where I can use that thing that I've been keeping >> something in us recognizes something even if we can't put our finger on it you know this is a value hang on to it you know >> I think that's time travel certainly your past self is flashing forward forward and giving you something in the future, right? Like for me, it's not cards when I'm I'm like, how did I know? >> How did I know that this was exactly what I needed? When I was writing Courage is calling, I decided I would the third part I would talk about the 300 Spartans. I would tell that story. And so, you know, 2020 when I'm working on the book, I go, okay, so obviously I have to go back and read Heroditus and his story. And, you know, I open up a book that was at that point 20 years old for me or no, not 15 years old. And how did my college self highlight and underline the exact passages >> that I would need to write a book that I had not even conceived there? I that gets me very excited when that happens. That's time travel to me. >> Do you I have to ask you this question. >> Okay. >> Do you ever think of about getting into politics? >> Not really. Um, I've been asked >> I'll tell I'll tell I'll tell you about it off the offline, but um, why? >> Well, because you sort of are bordering on politics now. Yeah. And being outspoken about the political situation now. And it certainly wouldn't surprise me if there was there were many people out there who thought that Ryan Holidayiday guy should, you know, I wish he'd run. I'd vote for him, you know. But then again, I'm if it were me, I would think, well, you can probably do more good in other ways than being trapped in Congress or something like that, you know. But I but I wondered if you're thinking in any of those terms. >> Do you know what the the word idiot meant? >> Yes, I do. Yeah. >> It means like not being involved in public affairs. Yeah. It it is weird that that there's something about our like on the one hand if you speak out about what's happening in the world people go like why'd you have to get political as if like you know defending sort of basic values is is the same as lobbying for a a tax bill you know like that doesn't strike me as political that strikes me as ethical sometimes. Yeah. So on the one hand people are like don't get political and then when people go you know we should get involved in politics we seem to think that means you have to run for office as if you can't contribute and be involved politically in other ways. It's like all or nothing. There's something weird about that. >> Yeah. But like say Timothy Snder. >> Yes. >> Yeah. He's not running for office but he's very definitely contributing. >> Yes. >> To the debate. >> So what do you think about him moving to Canada? I don't like that. >> I I actually applaud that. Okay. Uh because, you know, this is for real, >> you know, and you know, he's on a list. He's on a lot of lists. Yeah. >> And there there are people who are thinking, "How are we going to get this motherfucker?" >> Yes. >> And uh so I hope Canada's far enough away. I don't know if he actually did he move there or he just took a job teaching at uh >> Well, he gave up tenure at Harvard or whatever. Yeah. So, as far as I understand it, I don't know. It is weird to even think that reprisal and persecution is part of the political equation now. >> Yes. But >> and it is. Yeah. Uh-huh. >> And you think of all of the Jews the that later that came to the states, you know, in the 30s and even somebody like Billy Wilder or some of the, you know, the movie director that really contributed. True. And what would have happened had they not? >> Yeah. you know, which is another pathetic thing that they they came here, now people are leaving here, you know, that's a whole other >> No, I mean, you could there there is something darkly ironic about the Nazi war machine being ultimately undone by the people that it pushed out, >> you know, like like the their inability to deal with people that they disagreed with or disliked or were different drove was an enormous brain drain that that fueled America, not just for the 5 years of of the war, but but for the rest of the 20th and the 21st century. And now, >> yeah, now we're >> labeling everything as woke and, you know, silly because we don't like it. And, you know, driving those people out of the armed forces, driving those people out of public life, driving them to move to other countries. >> It's the biggest self-own. >> Yeah. >> Since then. >> Yeah. >> It's a huge strategic and cultural error. Yeah. On the other hand, speaking of Timothy Snder, you know, I I maybe I'm reading you wrong, but you were thinking like if he stayed here, that would be a a different statement, you know, to fight from. >> I don't like the don't obey in advance guy moving to Canada before >> they've actually rounded anyone up. >> Yeah, that's that's you know, I I'm of two minds there, too. You know, >> it's like I understand it on a personal level on >> It's a statement, though. It is a statement that uh that's powerful. you know, >> it's a canary in a coal mine >> kind of a thing that you don't like. But anyways, to go to your question, I do think about that like I think it's very important to be engaged politically to not just pretend that what's happening isn't happening and to speak up and to be involved. I just think it's, you know, it's interesting. Today I have to vote some for some reason in this small town we have to vote like every three months. It's like some primary runoff and mayor thing and I was like I don't know if I have time. And then I was like, you know, we talk about being engaged and then 50% of the population doesn't even vote, right? Like like the mayor of this town, the election is going to be decided by like a few dozen votes, you know? And and so >> it is interesting how we tend to I think we focus too much on geopolitics and national politics and not enough on >> the local school board and all that kind of thing. Yeah. >> Yeah. Where the actual decisions get. >> Yeah. Right. Yeah. >> Yeah. Anyway, I was just curious what you were >> No, and I I I do sometimes wonder too if talking about these political things pushes people out of being interested in stoicism. They would have found a lot of value in the philosophy, but maybe we do have different views on, you know, some basic policy issues. So, there's a trade-off, but at the same time, I do it feels weird not to say what you think because you're worried about losing your audience. >> Yeah. >> So, that strikes me as a painful act. Yeah. >> What about you? You don't you talk about it sometimes. >> Not as much as I I think maybe I should, >> but I I I look at it, you know, I don't know if I'm making excuses for not doing it or not, but somebody was talking about a point of leverage. Where can you place yourself where you make the most of what you're doing? And there are, at least this is what I tell myself. Maybe I'm just rational, but there are so many voices, >> ominous thunder goes in the background. Yeah. so many voices out including yours that are saying what I believe. Yeah. And am I gonna help by just repeating? Maybe I'm I'm waiting for a moment, you know. >> Sure. There's a book in the books I'll give you. Um Steven Greenblot, who's this amazing Shakespearean scholar, he wrote this book called on tyrants or on it's similar to Snyder's book, but it's it's a look at Shakespeare's political plays. >> Uhhuh. And he talks about at the beginning that Shakespeare sort of makes one contemporary political reference in his life and it like immediately lands him in jail really >> and almost gets him sort of deplatformed. >> So he decides in that moment like never again. >> Uhhuh. >> And yet almost all of his plays are statements on government and personality and rights and courage and virtues. And so basically his argument was that he just slightly subsumes his political and moral and ethical beliefs in he he decides it's much safer to talk about Roman politics as a means of making political commentary on you know Elizabeth and England and and >> aren't we glad he did? >> Of course. And and by the way if he had mostly talked about Elizabeth in England would we still be talking about him 500 years later? And so I think most of the political writing I do is in the Stoics themselves and talking about the values and the ideas. >> Politics and morality are really you know in many ways the same thing. You know >> I don't know if everyone believes that >> certainly these days they are I think you know >> Yeah. And and I think the founders obviously believed that you couldn't separate the two. Like it was inconceivable to them. It was funny. I I just did this event at Stanford with General Mattis >> and watching he's such a calm contained guy and and he was like someone was asking they were asking him about the political situation he goes you know things have been bad before he's like this country almost elected Aaron Burr you know and he it was like he got really excit like you could tell how animated he was but but the point was that the founders believed that you really couldn't let people without honor or virtue anywhere near the levers of power or you'd have big problem. >> Yeah. >> And that's I think why we're in the mess that we're in. >> Yeah. So true. So true. They couldn't they couldn't inoculate us in advance against that, you know, and that's what that's the sort of the crack that let the you know the cancer into the into the body politics. >> That's right. Yeah. John Adams said a country without virtue in the people would go through the constitution like a whale through a net. >> Ah >> and so you get some singular figure who doesn't have shame, who doesn't feel compelled to be honest, who who embraces corruption and cruelty and >> and all of a sudden you find >> it's like they're speed running through all these checks and balances. >> Okay, so the last thing I wanted to talk to you about, I was reading someone. They were talking about that young men aren't reading enough fiction. That like sort of muscular masculine fiction used to be, you know, you have your Hemingways and your you had these great sort of larger than-l life writers. Not only was that an aspirational occupation for people, but that the fiction was speaking to what it means to be a man, what it means to be a human being, and that that's not what it is today. like most most of the best-selling fiction writers are women and most of the fiction is written for women. >> I I would put you up as an exception to that. But how do you think about the role of fiction in people's lives? >> Wow, that's really interesting. I haven't even thought about that, but it's it is true. You think about James Jones, you know, from here to eternity or John Irving and all the stuff that he did. And actually that sort of male writer has now really really fallen into disrepute. It's like it's a bad thing, right? >> I just reread all James Salter's novels. >> Do you know who that is? >> Yeah. >> Like a fighter pilot who leaves he's like a he has a Russian MIG to his name. Like he and he he leaves the Air Force to be a a novelist. >> That's not a career trajectory so much anymore. >> Yeah, it sure isn't. But I certainly think those those pieces of fiction were formative for me. >> Yeah. I mean, now it's like male fiction is sort of like telling the story of your struggle with drug addiction or, you know what I mean? It's >> No, all the all the novels are about young novelists living in >> Yeah. Really? Or they're serial killers or whatever they are. You know, I wonder what that's about. I haven't really thought about that. I mean, it's I guess it's the masculinity quote unquote has been so, you know, whatever deplatformed that it's almost embarrassing. It's like for me writing Gates of Fire and setting a story in ancient Greece with the Spartans, the part of the reason I did that was >> so you could talk about honor with a straight face. >> Yes. >> If you wrote a contemporary story >> Yeah. and some character says something, you know, well, we have to stand, you know, you it they get laughed out of the room, you know, but yet readers, particularly men and women too, want that, you know, >> so >> to put it in ancient characters mouths, that kind of dialogue and write written in sort of an archaic >> format, it works. Finally, you can say something like that and then people are moved to tears, you know, and people are, you know, so it's like if you'd written a non-fiction book about honor that might have sold, even if it was a big hit, it might have sold 50,000 copies or 100,000 copies, but you put it in a novel and it's sold millions of copies over it and it would have been very much of its moment, right? Like if you'd written that non-fiction book, it would When did you write Gates of Fire? 1998 or six or something like that. >> It would have a 90s feel to it, you know, and you read Gates of Fire because it's it's not just a novel, but it's a novel set in the past. It has a a timelessness to it that allows it to reach not just a bigger audience, but I think as you said, reach reach them in a much more earnest emotional way. >> I think it I think it does. Or or books like that. You know, the idea of like when you said writing a book about honor, I mean, it's like I wouldn't even dream of it, you know? That would be lame. >> Yeah. It would be couldn't be Yeah. >> Well, and and there'd probably be some imposttor syndrome as the author. Like, who am I? Yeah, right. >> Who am I to lecture Jim Mattis? You can't he's like the only guy or you know Craven or somebody like that. That's about the only people who could do it. >> I mean, even am I I I don't do fiction exactly, but I I try to tell stories about the ideas. >> Uhhuh. because it'll it's a way in as opposed to >> Do you ever think you will write fiction someday? >> I have a novel idea. I want to tell you about it. >> Not on camera. >> Not on camera. I'll I'll curious about your advice on it. But yeah, the novel as a way of of teaching is obviously how we learned most lessons for all of human history. I think you miss something when that goes away. >> Yeah. I I think I didn't answer your question, I think, but I definitely believe fiction not even as teaching. I think it's it's more than that, you know. I mean, now, of course, we have movies like Star Wars has certainly influenced >> sure >> bazillion people or Harry Potter or something like that, >> but a novel obviously lets you get into the head >> in a way of of a character or multiple characters that you never could in any other medium other than maybe movies. Yes. You know, >> and that's where it's all, you know, that's what makes people really learn something, I think. You know, really let it sink in. Yeah. >> Like a legend, like a myth, you know? >> It's a character. It's a human being. >> Yeah. And you you get to see the fight because then to carry you through the novel, it's usually like the two virtues or values or whatever it is fighting each other out. >> Mhm. >> Who are you rooting for? Who's going to win? What's going to happen? Where's this going to take this person? That's that's what the novel allows us to do. >> And you get involved emotionally, right? You start rooting for somebody, oh my god, don't let that happen. You know, that kind of thing. Yeah. >> And that's where things sink in. Plus, I don't know, from my point of view, it's just fun, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. I did this piece a couple of months ago where I I wasn't talking about novels so much, but I was I was talking about some of those poems like Long Fellows, A Psalm of Life or Invictus. In the 19th century and 20th century, there were these kind of like even muscular masculine like earnest poems too about like the struggle and the fight. I mean Kipling's famous obviously has a lot of racist poems too, but but if is such a famous example of like an encapsulation, a distillation of like the values you want a a young person to do. And like >> I don't read a lot of poetry now, but if I walked to the poetry section of a bookstore, that's not what most of the poems would be about. >> Yeah. I'm sure most of them would not be for young men. >> Yes. Yeah. Too bad >> it is. By the way, I saw >> I don't know it was on a talk show or something. It was Michael Kaine. >> Yes. >> And he read Did you see this? >> Yes. >> When he read that uh if >> Yes. >> And it was, you know, brilliant. I mean, brought you to tears, you know. >> Oh, man. I had this crazy experience. Anthony Hopkins read a couple of my books and he would for a while he was emailing me and I I told him that I was reading one of these poems to my kids and and he sent me audio of him reading it. And you just like when you have a poem and then it's read by some like incredible voice >> like when you like Yeah. If by Michael Kane is crazy. There's a bunch of like really like poems you thought you got emotionally >> and then a really good voice. It's amazing. It just hits you at this whole other level. >> Yeah. >> Especially on the podcast. >> No. >> But I um >> better get him. >> I would have him on in two seconds. Yeah. I'm in his memoir. >> He wrote about one of the exchanges. It was >> someone was like, you know, you're in >> that can't possibly be real. But yeah, I think the novel I just feel like so much modern fiction is like these kind of unlikable anti-heroes or it's like >> where did that come from? >> Whiny losers, >> you know, who are in publishing >> trying to It's like I don't need to read any more novels about aspiring novelists cheating on their wives in New York City or whatever it is. >> But I think done right, there's something earnest about the medium that's very moving. But they tend not like yeah you hear about these novels that win these awards and then you look at the sales and you're like sold like >> 6,000 copies, you know, it's not even actually speaking to a a large audience. Not that that's always the metric of whether it works or not, but like >> you know >> your your your Fcott Fitzgeralds and your Hemingways and those they were trying to speak to people. >> Yeah. >> You know, and they did. And there are I've never quite understood this phenomenon that there are certain writers and movie makers too that are like the darlings of the critics, you know, and >> you can never shake shake that in any way. Yeah. >> And >> I don't know. I don't know what it's sort it's it's woke. >> Yes. >> In some sense. Yes. >> Although I'm not sure, you know, in a bad sense. You know, >> your novel will sell more copies than most of the books reviewed in the New York Times. most of the novels reviewed in the Times over the next three or four months, right? Because you have an audience, you've done this a long time. >> I hope so. >> Yeah. But they would never think to review this novel. >> Oh, yeah. No chance. Yeah. >> And and so I do think that does create some of the media backlash and some of the resentment and and where it's like the things that is celebrated in the media or in the culture or the elites is not even close to matching >> what people want and like and know is good. >> Yeah. But there has to be kind of a middle area too between Sure. You know, but it's also like when movie critics write the 12 movies you should see, right? You never heard of any of them, right? >> Or what nominated for best picture is like a bunch of movies you never even heard of. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There's a obviously there's a a space for discovering great underappreciated things. But there's also something I think about the medium or the culture where the the people that are writing novels are almost deliberately not trying to speak to a wide or >> or the critics that are praising these things are trying to show how smart they are. >> Yes. >> That they get something that you and me don't get, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. But I think generally people should read more fiction and fiction should reach a larger general audience and I think >> although I understand why people don't you know >> what do you mean >> I think people will say oh it's made up it's not real I want something that that uh you know and you know stuff to argue against that but except madeup stuff a lot of times is realer than real >> it gets closer to the the the big truths. Yeah, when it's right, it is, you know, it does. >> I would put in the middle category, I talk about Plutarch a lot. Like most of what Plutarch tells us is probably not true, right? Or you read um history of the Pelpeneisian War. None of those speeches happened >> like like the words. >> Yes. The words of the >> How do you know that? >> Well, because he wasn't there. Ah I mean the way I heard it was that he went to great pains if he wasn't there to talk to people who were there and who were >> what I mean is that there was never a recording of paraphysis funeral oration right so so so what we have is Thusidities's version of it >> which I I would say gets >> close or closer to the the the the big T truth >> even if it's not the literal >> recording and so so what I mean is that I think also historians have taken as their job to capture literally what happened and everything has to be footnoted and if it if it can't be footnoted or verified they'll spend a lot of time trying to to disprove it >> when really the the purpose of history is actually the same >> purpose as literature >> do you know what I like the purpose is to capture the essence of what happened and to communicate the lesson of the event and the personality and the struggle. >> I mean, you must be dealing with this with the Stockdale book, you know, every day, right? >> But I even think in in the stories that I'm writing in the book sometimes I know it didn't literally happen that way or there's this story that I tell in right thing right now. Do you know the story of Regulus, the Roman general? >> Yeah. Who turned himself in after Yeshua. Yeah. >> And and >> that is an amazing story. Yeah. There's not that much proof that it happened. >> It's a story told over and over and over again in these different ones. Catis is another great example. You know the story of Catus. He's the Roman general. Rome Rome's army is basically captured or on the verge of defeat. And so there's an old Roman general named Catis who they make dictator of Rome to save the country. And he he leaves his retirement. He saves the Roman army and he lays down his powers. 17 days later >> and returns to his farm. >> And it's this myth Catis that that Washington is referring to when he resigns his commission and then when he leaves the presidency. So it's not like we have monuments and and scrolls and documents. >> There's not a lot of historical evidence for Cats. But it doesn't matter because generations of Romans believed in the myth of CNAS to the point that it it was true enough that 2,000 years later >> Washington makes it as a model. So >> if it wasn't true, it should have been true. >> Exactly. Exactly. It's like if it wasn't true, you would have to invent it. >> And and so Regulus another so so I'm telling the story as >> per the ancient sources. I'm telling you what the ancients believed. I'm not adding details and inventing things, you know, I'm I'm making it real by describing, I don't know, the wind at his back. I, you know, I'm I'm coloring the story, but I'm I'm not telling the story and then going, "And by the way, this is [ __ ] and you're an idiot if you believe it." Because I think the essence of that story is really important. Yeah. >> I think there's there's non-fiction and fiction and then there's there's actually kind of a fluid. What is the thing from uh the man who shot Liberty Valiance? The quote of if you have a choice between the fact and a legend, print the legend. I forgot whether that was a line from the movie or it was a true >> Sure. >> newspaperman said that or I don't know, >> right? >> But I'm from that school, too. Yes. Print the legend. You know, it's a lot more fun. But yeah, the purposes of those >> across those three different types, the mission is the same, which is you're supposed to teach people things about the human experience. I think ultimately >> if not, why are you doing it? >> Yeah. Like Braveheart is a great example of that. You know, who knows what the actual story of William Wallace is. >> Yes. >> But I'll take the movie anytime. >> Yes. Well, this is amazing. Want to go pick out some books? >> Yeah, you bet.