“What if he wants to do that again after we’re married”

Hi everyone, welcome back to our podcast the helpline. I'm Seema Anand and I have with me as always Dr. Amrita Anand Behl who's a psychosexual and relational therapist. So Amrita, I have a really interesting question for you today. I'm going to read out as much of the question as possible. Because it's got so many layers to it. I think it's a good idea to read it out. So it comes from a young woman who says that she really needs our help and advice. She says that she's been in a long distance relationship with somebody now, but before it became long distance they were actually together. So it's a long term relationship. Recently the young man moved abroad. And once he moved abroad he found that he was able to become more open sexually and he confessed, which he hadn't told her before, that he's also into trans women. And he said that he'd had some sexual encounters with trans women before they had they'd gotten into a relationship together. And now he finds himself craving it again. Now, when we get into it I really want to also talk about why there is just so much interest that so many men have about trans women. But just to finish the question. And he says that he's been suppressing it for a long time. I was very accepting of it, but I asked for some time to be okay with it, which I think is wonderful that she needed to understand. It's not an easy thing to Yes. suddenly be told that when you think you're in a relationship and you know, it's a monogamous one, you love each other and then suddenly you're told, well actually my partner Yeah. likes this slightly different type of person. So she says I asked him for some time to become okay with it. But the fact is that he wants to engage with trans women. And he is not able to keep that desire inside him anymore. So he also did not want to wait till I had sort of come to grips with it. So, he decided to go ahead. Now, at the same time, he also wants to have a normal life with her. So, he wants that relationship with her. Wants a relationship which will eventually end in marriage, have children, and so on. Um so, she said, "I told him that I still accept that and go ahead and engage with whoever you want to. That's fine. I love you, but I'm not sure if I'm willing to get married to him after a few years down the line because I understand that it's not his fault." She says that he's had to keep himself suppressed for a very long time because he's afraid of being judged. And society is not very easily accepting of things like this. And I understand that I am not biologically able to give him what he wants, which he can get from a trans person. And he's very thankful for that. And he loves me for being understanding. Although I also get where he's coming from, but I also fear that he might just never come back. And um he says that he wants to engage with trans women. Uh she says she's fine for him to do that. But I just don't know whether I am okay with this particular desire of his. I want to accept him and his desires, she says, but doing that feels so unfair and unjust to me. And I think that's a wonderful line that she's also conscious of the fact that she wants to love him and accept him, but it's also about her boundaries. What if tomorrow he says that he wants to do it after getting married as well? Mhm. I am so torn and I genuinely hope that you are able to provide some help over here. As in, one, I just want to meet this woman. I love her. As in, I love of fact that she is so understanding and non-judgmental about the whole desires and differences and everything. But at the same time, what I love most is that I think most of the time when we get these questions, women are like, "I don't know if he will leave. I really love him. I want him to stay. Will you know, uh they never And should I just stay and let him go and everything?" I feel like this is so refreshing because this is one of the few first where I've heard a woman saying, "Oh, what about me? You know, I need time to understand this. I need time to accept this. I don't know if I want to get married to somebody who has these desires. What if he has these desires post marriage? And is it fair to me that my partner has these desires?" And I just think it's it's just If there is a rulebook to learn from, as in I really would want to keep her there to really Like how much you should be thinking about yourself when making these decisions. When going into a relationship which you are going to be in for, hopefully, the rest of your life, that how important boundaries are. We tend to think of boundaries as something scary. It's like, "Oh my god, somebody put up a boundary." But this is really what we want, right? But I feel also not about relationships. Like I I I feel also when people are making this You get questions all the time saying, "He has this fetish. He has this desire. Should I just agree? Will he leave me? Will or she leave me?" It's gender agnostic, you know. What we keep saying is do it, think about it, engage with it, accept it only if you're ready, if you like it. And I think she's really given a language to that. Like she has said that And she's not judged. She's not judging him for having um desires. She's just saying, "Great, you have desires. I understand that. But, what would that mean for me?" And that's what I love about her exploring this. Yeah. Absolutely. So, I think let's start at the top. I find that a lot of men, I mean, so many men today are at least saying that they are far more turned on by trans women. And that's who they want to have the relationship with, either the full relationship or even just their pleasure relationship. And it's all about the trans women, and I just want you to explain for the audience what is this um desire that leads them particularly to trans women? I don't know, as in we um and so it would be a good discussion. I have to say I'm not an uh expert on trans um you know, anatomy anatomy anatomy and get it messy in the world, um and how it is, but what we didn't know before is that a lot of people engage uh with trans women or trans men because they want to be engaging in a gay relationship or anal sex, and they didn't know how to have permissibility of it. You know, we we knew historically that um a lot of people um were in involved and even in uh sex workers and otherwise, because men did not know how to accept uh their need to be in a gay relationship or engage with anal sex and everything. I think life has moved away from that, maybe not in reality, but I do think that this was a very old, you know, like when there was not so much openness about it. And now things have changed, and so I wonder what it is about trans women, Like, are they Is there Is it about the mixture of the masculinity or the femininity? Is it about the femininity? Is it about, um, you know, something the power? I as in, um, I'm not really sure, uh, what it is. And uh, also what I And is it to the basic of anal sex, which I was telling you right before this question that I I recently watched Made in Heaven again. Uh, and that was one of the most offensive thing, um, to the character who had transitioned and was now a woman, a transwoman. And she found it so offensive, uh, when you know, people would engage in anal sex with her because what she wanted, uh, was vaginal sex. Yeah, because she's now transitioned and she wishes to be seen in that identity. So, she wants the vaginal sex and people are still coming to her for that. But, I was also thinking, you know, how many men, um, also write to me saying that they actually will go to male sex workers for pleasure. Yeah. Straight men. We're not talking about gay people. We're talking about straight men, often married men, often men who are under a lot of pressure at work and so on. They find that they their only true release and pleasure pleasure comes from sex with or pleasure with another male figure. Yeah. Now, I don't know whether we're talking about trans women who are in the process of transitioning, so they would still have a penis, but maybe the rest of their body has now become more feminine, like you said, or if they're fully transitioned, is it that combination of male and female where the men feel, this one will understand me, no matter what I ask for. I won't be judged like I would with a biological woman. And that worries me a bit because I wonder if it is heterosexual men using trans women because that's not what trans women want to be used for, right? Like they that's not how they want to be treated. Uh but is that for the benefit of the heterosexual men? I I don't know. As in I'm sure there are people out there who truly find trans women very attractive and that's what gets them aroused. And I hope and pray that's the case here. Because I think that you know, when you transition, you um have this new identity that you take on. And generally, whenever I have met a trans person, their aura is just so exquisitely beautiful. That's the word for it. Because they found this new life and they're just so wonderfully happy with it. But I'm also thinking like anatomically, when you recreate a vagina, there are certain differences. I know that you said you're not uh familiar with the anatomy, obviously. Um but I know that you were also telling me that there are some differences like there is less elasticity, I think you said. So the tissue is slightly different and so on. >> Yeah, because I think uh when they do recreate the vagina, it's it's grafted from skin from other places. It might be inversion of a penis or penis and obviously medical people would know that better. But because it is not the natural tissue, um it's one not as elastic and two, uh it doesn't self-lubricate. Um so the lubrication is missing. So yeah, it could also be the fact that it's um it's not as elastic, so it's maybe a little bit tighter and drier, which sometimes men will prefer. But, it's interesting that um there is more interest I I'm finding with the questions that come in of men saying I moved into a different community. I moved to a different country where I'm able to explore my sexuality a little bit more. But, very few of them are saying I mean, moved to the US and I now want to be with a blonde white girl. It is still more and more which is what our stereotype was, right? That these guys want to be with a certain type of woman. It is more and more um with trans women. So, what I do think is that and and and it's it's a page to learn from that more people are able to express their sexuality uh when they go to the western parts of the world. Be it uh being part of the lesbian or the gay community, being bisexual, um or being attracted to trans women, or you know, it could be BDSM, it could be kink, it could be like just that there is I don't know if it feels like it's less scary, there is less judgement from people around, or uh less likelihood of them being caught by friends or family or things like that. Um so, the exploration is definitely there as India becomes more and more open, maybe we'll find the same comfort there as well. Um but, there is something. And and yes, um I think you're right that it has gone away from the stereotypes of like the standards of white beauty to actually expressing your sexual desires. You know, it's it's it's shifted from the stereotypes to actually connecting with what is important to you. You know, um some years ago we did a podcast on a threesome. And we did this podcast, talked about how you know, various things that people get very excited about and think that they want to try. And then it goes very badly wrong because there are so many moving parts and things can go wrong. And I remember somebody writing in and saying that they wanted to try a threesome, they went to listen to our podcast. And he was very annoyed because we were very negative about it. And I was thinking, um you know, we were trying to actually in that podcast to warn people about the things that can go wrong because when you're out there wanting to try something new, you can just see the excitement of it. And you do need somebody saying, "Yeah, but that can happen, that can happen, that can happen." So, I don't want anybody to come back and say to us, "Oh, you're being so negative about it." But, can we talk a little bit more in depth about the fact that if this is what your real desire is, if you are truly turned on by or really aroused by a trans person, how easy is it then for you to also be equally aroused by your straight partner? And is it then what we call the leftover energy that the arousal is going to be put over there, the real excitement will go over there, and this partner will actually just have the vanilla side of you. So, one I think let's take a step back because one of the things I would say is that you would have to be in an open relationship for you to be having a relationship with the trans person and with your, um you know, heterosexual partner. Um yes, if it if you are somebody who has like in this case, uh this person had had previous sexual encounters with trans people, then happened to meet their committed partner, and really craved for what they had experienced before. And And so, we're talking about the sexual desire, and I think they have to make choices, and we have said arousal can be very many different things. For them, the arousal here is trans um women, and so I would say that there is enough We have to understand that there is enough diversity within this, you know, we're just saying a blanket trans word, trans women. How much have they transitioned? Where are they in their transition? Have they completely transitioned? And for this man, what is attractive about having sex with a trans woman? Like we've just spent 10 minutes, and we still don't know what is it about, right? And so So, I think that nuance is really important for us to um you know, for them to think about that is this going to impact their relationships or their sexual life with a heterosexual partner, right? Like if there are certain things that can only be given to them by a trans person, then is are they going to not feel aroused um with uh the anatomy of a uh know, a biological female body, somebody born biologically female. Um And so, that's something that they Is it about the energy? Is it about the power? Like I'm saying that's something that they really need to think about about Or like I'm saying, is it Sometimes it's closeted experimentation of your own identity that you're unable to express outside, you know? And And trans relationships or people from the LGBTQ community provide you with a safe environment to express your sexuality, which you're unable to do outside. So, is it what is really happening here is what I would really want to know. Um and yes, so going back to the young woman, this is something this is the conversation she needs to maybe have deeper to understand as in what is he looking for? Because in some ways, is this something that will impact their sexual life going forward? Two things. Um it's funny that you should say about the queer community, uh the safe spaces of the queer community for straight people. Because I've literally just made a video for the Rainbow Literature Festival talking about this that there are so many men, straight men, going to male sex workers for pleasure. And there's no space for them to talk about it, to discuss these needs. And the only safe spaces left are places like the Rainbow Literature Festival where you have open panels and forums and expert advice and so on. So, yeah, I do want to make a point of saying that yes, the queer community are literally providing the sexual mental health backbone for a lot of the straight community as well. They are providing the safe spaces. And and sometimes at the risk of themselves. And once again, I'm not aware of the of the um LGBTQ scene, but I know initially, when we would do a lot, you know, when HIV AIDS was a big thing, we would find out that a lot of gay men were having I don't It wasn't gay men, but that people who identified as gay and because there was no space, many times they would engage in sex work because that was the only place that men would have come you know would they would be willing to have sex with men in dark places as sex workers and otherwise, but wouldn't openly accept a gay relationship. But then as in they felt exploited obviously, but that they also felt stuck because that was the only way that they could do it. >> Yeah. But the other thing that you also just said and I was just thinking that suppose this was me. My partner said that actually I really really get turned on by trans women. I want to explore that and so on. I would have a lot of the same fears that if he is finding that more exciting, does that mean that I'm not as exciting? If we say, okay, go ahead, experiment, get it out of your system. Does it really ever leave your system? And what happens like she says in her message, if later on when they're married, he wants to do this again. What happens if that is still his point of interest? Like how do you even start to build those boundaries? Yeah, and and that's why I'm saying that she is amazing because she has the awareness of those risks. She has the awareness and she you know, and she also is is seeing these as natural desires and is not judging them. And and so but but I think what works really well in their relationship is that there's communication. And they're being open about their desires and they're talking about it and that she she also feels there's space for her to say this is what I want or these are my boundaries, right? And she is feeling the risk around that in many ways. So, I think one thing that's going for their relationship is communication and space for each person's thing. The other thing that I would say that is going for this relationship is that obviously there is a deep enough connection between the two of them where each one is considering despite different sexual diversity, um if they still if there's enough in the relationship for them to stay. So, there's obviously there's more. Um so, I think that there's something about that that is present. And thirdly, sometimes we like some visuals, you know, we like certain ways of being and everything. Um and or we like a feeling or the way we are treated, and we mistake that to believe that we can only receive it from one community's own person, which is for example, I can only get this from a sex worker. I can only get this from a man. Like as in we pre-decide that we have a way of arousal and we can only receive it from one person. And it's so the important thing would be have you considered or questioned or explored what that fetish or what that arousal is? Can you get it with your partner? So, I think if she thinks or decides or if he thinks or decides to stay in the relationship and they would like a healthy sexual life, maybe that's something for them to consider. Or we should also accept that we have different kind of sex and love with different kind of people. Like not all like we are not robots who have the same kind of sex with each person. Um when we think about different partners, um with some we might have had wild, crazy, erratic sex. With others, it might have been gentler. With others, it might be very kinky. So, I I I do think that that we need to allow that in human nature as well. I think that that sounds like a great idea in theory. I might say that um it's a little bit more difficult to put into practice sometimes. So, you know, uh because it's also very natural thing. You get Again, it's gender agnostic. You get so many people say, "Oh, she was um having better sex with her ex." Or "He was having better sex with his ex." And how come they don't want that with me? So, I think that there is a certain uh level of insecurity that comes with most monogamous or supposedly monogamous relationships. But, what worries me is these words that we put in front of it, better and worse. Like, who decides what's better anyway? If you're feeling satisfied, if you're feeling aroused, um it is So, I hear that. And And And sometimes relationships give us different things, right? I remember I used to have a cousin who used to be all about like Like, he wanted stability in his life and relationship, but wanted the hottest, crazy girl to take out and things. Uh but would never really But, that didn't want her as that person as a committed >> Mistress material and the wife And it was it like And And so So, the thing is that sometimes we all make compromise. And I'm not saying that the mistress material is crazy sex and the Yeah, committed one is saying it I think once again a stereotype. But, all I'm saying is we we make different choices uh because we might want different things in our phases of life. At different times in life. >> Yeah, absolutely. And yes, desire and arousal changes with every phase of your life. I mean, literally, what you are let's say in 2025, you are not in 2023. And what you will not be in 2027. Your desires change, your arousal patterns change, your ability to be aroused changes. Absolutely. And and and obviously, as you grow older, there are some biological issues that come in and there are different things that might be present. But I think what we are talking about is more philosophical and not age-related. Um and and it's just it it's also about, you know, there are phases of life when you just start having sex. You want to experiment, you want to try different things, or you might be scared and you only want to do one thing. Then then, you might feel more liberated or more comfortable in your body and you might try different things. So, there's so many factors, um but I definitely think one of the biggest factor is your dynamic with the partner you're with. I don't think it's a definite, permanent thing that if somebody is enjoying sex with a trans woman, that they will never be able to find pleasure with another with a straight person. And at the same time, if that's something that is their sexual identity, I think that changes the You know, that changes the story in some ways. Like, what if the what they are exploring is their sexual identity, then I think that's different. So, I think that if we were going to um compress all of this into one sentence, into one thing that we think it may be and one bit of advice is so I'm going to ask you all in just a minute to give your one. I think from my side I would like to say to this young lady that I think that sometimes the desire the arousal for a trans person for a trans woman could just be the social narrative that you grow up with you know because there's a lot of peer groups friends pages that will build up stories much like your own of what they think a trans person brings to your life and it could just be a mere case of experimenting with somebody where you actually think that this is the one person who's not going to judge you so it could be as straight forward as that it's just the subconscious carrying that story forward and my advice to the young lady would be that the most important thing here is to hold on to your belief in yourself [clears throat] you know you've got your you've got your thinking really really well over here where you've set your boundaries you are concerned you are worried but like I've already said that as you get further in life there are different things that we all want and you may just find that this bit was it was a little interest that your partner had at that point but that it is okay for you as you go further with everything else that you so that would be my advice and mine would be I I think you're on the right track I think just trust yourself I think you're really seeing this clearly and objectively and not blindly so really credit to you but also I think if you can take it the conversation a bit more deeper and bit more open to understand what's really happening there, you might find your answers because you might find the answers from your partner who might say, "No, actually that's where I want to go." You might figure out that it is a fetish or the nuance is different or something like that. What I would just say to you is your protecting yourself or thinking about yourself. Never feel guilty about it or don't feel like, "Oh, but for my partner I should be more adjusting or sacrificing or things like that." In the long term, it's not healthy for you, your relationship, or your partner. So, thinking about yourself is a great thing. If you do want to stay with this partner and they want to stay with you, just take the conversation a bit more deeper and more nuanced to understand what are they desiring, what are they wanting, and if you're okay with that, keeping that in the center. Thank you so much for that, Amrita. I just want to finish by saying that, you know, as Amrita said right at the start that these conversations are only just starting to open up now. For the longest time, these desires and arousal patterns are not new. This has always been there. For the longest time, it's been under silence. So, we have ourselves all the kinks. Was it exactly this? Exactly this. Absolutely. So, it's just that it's been buried under silence. Conversations are starting to happen now. We're very, very privileged that we get to start actually contributing to this conversation right at the beginning. As the years move on, more and more people are going to join the conversation, more nuances would come out, more ideas, ex- advice. >> And if you have information that you think we missed out, we're happy to learn. You know, we are happy to be more than welcome to learn more and understand it more. So, if you have something or if we said something that you think you disagree with, happy to receive the feedback. >> Yeah, we'd love to know from you. And so, um good luck for the young woman who's written in and for everybody else who's in a similar kind of position because from the messages that we receive, I can tell you that there are several hundred people who've written in about similar things. It's not new. So, um what I'd like to say is that yes, the conversations have started. Find more spaces where you can have more conversations. Talk to friends. Talk to other people about this. Actually, get other people's input because you'd be you'd be surprised that the more you talk, the more you learn. Yeah. And and you know, and I'm sure people now have uh you know, friends in the community. They might have, like you were saying to me, that you've spoken to people who have a political view or thought on it in other ways. Uh so, understand it better from all sides. I think that's where we need to take the conversation. Um is to understand all sides of the you know, coin and also understand each perspective that is present here. Well, I hope that you found that useful. If you did, please as always do comment, like, subscribe. Particularly the comments, like Amrita said, we really want to hear more on this if we're going to develop this conversation further. And if you need to get in touch with Amrita uh for a consultation, Amrita can be found on Uh so, my website is cultureandtherapy.co.uk. And if you need to send in a question, I am as always on info.seema.anand@gmail.com. Write to us. Talk to us. We look forward to hearing from you, and in the meantime, stay safe, stay healthy. >> [music] [music]