What Happens When You Scale Engineering Too Fast

What do you think [music] changes for a leader when they're moving from solving, you know, everyday problems or even engineers solving everyday [music] problems to running firm operations? And then on counterpoint, what do you think stays exactly [music] the same? >> You know, when it comes to solving problems, as you move into a more of a leadership position, you still are identifying problems [music] and areas where improvement can occur. It's just not on a technical engineering project. And so you're still [music] trying to solve those problems and make improvements uh where we can in ter but it's just more focused now on uh business [music] functions and operations and and the like on this topic [music] I thought it would be important to mention that what actually changes when an engineer stops solving technical problems and starts running an entire firm's [music] operations and what surprisingly never changes at all. It's a question every technical profession with leadership [music] ambitions eventually faces and the answer might not be what you expect. To help us unpack it, we're joined by Jason Dowy, PE [music] chief operating officer at Majetski and Masters. Jason has spent 29 years in bridge engineering, built the firm's Raleigh office from the ground up into a thriving North Carolina [music] practice, and now guides operations across the firm's national footprint. We'll be talking about the transition from engineer [music] to executive leader. How firms can scale without sacrificing technical experience [music] and what it takes to build a culture where experienced engineers mentor the next generation of bridge leaders. If you're an engineer wondering what it takes to lead beyond the technical work or a firm leader thinking about how to grow without losing what makes your organization great, this conversation [music] is for you. Before we jump in, I want to tell you about AEC PM Connect, a series of in-person events we've created at EMI for AEC project managers and the leaders who develop them. [music] If you want to stay on top of PM trends, elevate your team, and deliver stronger project results, [music] these fullday events are built for you. We're coming to Kansas City this October. Learn more and register at AECpmconnect.com. [music] I'm your host, Fiona Johan, and this is the AEC [music] Leadership Podcast. >> Welcome, Jason. Thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you very much for having me. >> I'm hoping that you could just start us out. We always get to like want to get a feel for where your career journey has been and what your path has been to lead you to your current role as the chief operating officer at Majeski and Masters. Could you walk us through that? >> Sure, absolutely. My career or my association with Majeski and Masters began uh a long time ago. I'm not going to tell you how long ago. uh but I was a uh a co-op student employee with them uh for several summers during my undergraduate work and then after graduation uh the first 10 years of my career were spent in our Pikipsy New York office and during that time I worked as a uh a staff design engineer rose up to project engineer level and uh got to some exposure to some really really interesting projects uh after about 10 years Uh my wife and I had this uh epiphany that we wanted to relocate to North Carolina. So I had to make a difficult decision and uh separate from the firm because at the time they did not have an operation or an office in North Carolina. So I went to work for a competitor for about eight and a half years. Always stayed in touch with the company, you know, see how everybody was doing. And uh you know I always joke that if you ever you know get the urge to open an operation in North Carolina keep me in mind. And sure enough, one day in 2016, uh the president at the time, who happened to be my mentor and supervisor in New York at the time when I was working with the company explained to me that the company had plans to open an office in Raleigh and they wanted to see how much interest I would have in leading that operation. And so it was an easy easy decision for me because I've uh always admired uh and felt honored to have the opportunity to work for Eminem. And so uh long story short, 2016 uh the doors opened in the Raleigh, North Carolina office. And I've been here ever since. And uh and then since then it's been office manager role uh moving up to a business unit leader uh vice president and now uh here we are as of the beginning of this year the firm's first uh chief operating officer. >> Very cool path. I love that you manifested them coming to >> Rock. Yeah. [laughter] >> I feel like you put it out there and it happens. >> Our uh you know our board of directors is very uh calculated. They think about all the everything you can dream of. And so it took a little time for them, I think, to get to that point in terms of making a decision to expand, but uh I think it all worked out pretty well. >> That's great. I think it goes to show how important keeping connections is. >> You know, you you kept letting them know if you're ever here, I'm here. And look at you now. I think that's that's a very uh important point for people to remember. Never never let go of those connections. So you mentioned, you know, you you started you came back, you um started, you said office manager and now you're the first COO. What do you think changes for a leader when they're moving from solving, you know, everyday problems or even engineers solving everyday problems to running firm operations? And then on counterpoint, what do you think stays exactly the same? >> Yeah, that's uh how about we start with what does not change. >> I love that. uh high level of quality of our work product is doesn't change and that's always our one of our you know driving forces pillars to our organization whatever jargon you want to use but technical quality is is uh very important that doesn't change responsiveness uh that's to internal parties as well as external parties accountability uh that doesn't change and then the sound judgment you know these are things that whether you're talking about business decisions or technical decisions, uh, sound judgment always comes into play. So, those are things that definitely do do not change. Um, you know, when it comes to solving problems, as you move into a more of a leadership position, you still are identifying problems and areas where improvement can occur. It's just not on a technical engineering project, you know, uh, basis. And so you're still trying to solve those problems and make improvements uh where we can in ter but it's just more focused now on uh business functions and operations and and the like on this topic I thought it would be important to mention that I think it's important for leaders to be grounded and what I mean by that is as I described with my journey to get to this point I'd really been involved in many different positions uh up to this point and so I know what our teams are going through. I know what our leaders are challenged with and having all of that at my in my brain really is a way for me to help them. And so I think that's going to be something that'll be important for leaders to not forget all about that stuff that happened back, you know, 10, 15 years ago. uh it's important to keep it in the front of your mind as best you can because there may be things that you can do now in a leadership role to make it better for others that come behind you. >> I think that is so important. I think it's often, you know, people want to get into leadership roles, but sometimes all the years of experience of all the roles you will be leading can really make you an excellent leader if you understand what their day-to-day looks like. And that's easy to want to skip, but so important in in leading people that want to follow you because they understand that you understand what they're doing every day. >> Exactly. >> That's so critical. So in 2016, you built a new office from the ground up. I assume you use some of those skills you just mentioned. What does it take to grow a regional practice into a b a thriving business unit? Yeah, it's uh I wish there was a recipe book or some kind of crystal, you know, that we could look at and refer to, but uh life doesn't work that way, you know, it really and I take a lot of pride actually in being a part of uh the operation starting and continuing and thriving. So, but really it boils down to good people, strong relationships, an entrepreneurial spirit, and a dedication and drive. Uh, you know, those are kind of some of those may sound like buzzwords. Uh, but I really believe in them. Um it's something where you know I remember when the office was pretty young and we were trying to find work and that's not an easy thing for the leaders to do and there's always an interest in having these glamorous you know larger projects but when you're starting out it's okay to think small and build and these are building blocks and uh that's exactly what we did. It was sort of a slow, you know, steady growth and then sure enough, um, you know, about a year ago, we were involved in one of the state's largest bridge replacement projects. So, uh, it's it's an interesting evolution, but it also is you can't just start on day one and think you're going to, you know, have, uh, you know, need a huge office and you have, uh, tons and tons of projects coming in the door on day one. It's steady growth. It's strengthening those relationships, but most important of all is the good people that you bring in and work with you. >> Strong project outcomes [music] need skilled managers and competent leaders. EMI's corporate training delivers expert-led courses in project management and people leadership, plus industry recognized certification [music] and exclusive premium content to take your team even further. Elevate [music] your team's leadership capabilities today. Visit engineeringmanagementinstitute.org. org and click on corporate training. >> Sometimes, you know, when you're out there talking to the world, everybody, and I think this happens in any industry, not just the EC space, you do want you want the big thing, right? >> Yeah. >> How do you con how do you convince people that the strategy is not that, right? We can't jump in on the whale. How do we build up? How do we how do we convince those around us, if there are some that want to jump to the big whale, that this is the right way to go? No, it's uh it's really uh it's kind of uh showing examples and it's trying to impress upon people to have a little patience and leadership has to be patient too. You know, you can't just expect a new operation, you flip the switch and there you go, you're off and running. It's an investment and it takes time and effort uh to build those uh project portfolios, to build the staff that you need to have in order to support those projects. So I think some patience uh being realistic, you know, these are things that come to mind as you ask that question. >> Yeah. And you can build up all those people on your smaller projects and then you guys are ready for the big ones. >> That's right. >> Absolutely. So as we're talking about, you know, starting out small strategically and scaling up to something huge, how can engineering firms scale their operations without diluting the technical excellence and quality that built their reputation? Yeah, it's uh to me this was an easy, you know, uh you know, this is kind of an easy question because I think it it gets back to the dedication to the practice. Um you know, one of the reasons why it was so easy for me to return to Majeski Masters is because we always, and this is for my entire career, regardless of who was in the leadership roles at the time, is that we've always been a practice-based business. And what that means is that uh project first, client first and we can figure out all that other stuff later. Uh you know as ter in terms of uh profit and making money. We are business of course but the practicebased business philosophy is really important to me and to our organization. And so as long as that is at the core, the growth and the scaling can happen in a very methodical way. you know, growth for the sake of growth isn't always a good uh a good approach. Uh to me is good people, good projects doing good work that continues to grow and then that could branch out into other locations and just different geographic locations and things. So, um but you have to be dedicated to to the practice. I think that's the uh that's the core the core point there. One thing that comes up for me when you're talking about that is thinking about, you know, you're talking about the people and how they matter. And of course, every firm has, you know, your senior engineers and then your next generation. How do you go about building a culture where where those senior engineers are actively mentoring your next generation so that you can have that good culture and those good people rather than them just working alongside each other, even worse, somewhat siloed, >> right? No, that's uh the I have to confess as the new COO of Eminem, that is one of my hot buttons. And the reason that is is because we need to always be developing the next generation of leaders, senior engineers, technical leaders, project delivery teams, etc. all across and then even into the uh what I'll call the back office you know operations they also need to be having that same kind of training and development and growth and so what that means is it's not just okay here's how you do this good luck see you later it's it's really listening to questions it's encouraging questions to be asked I actually have a meeting with a group of of young engineers this afternoon that I organized because I want to talk to them about a certain topic and I want to share stories and why. And I think these are the kinds of things that senior and more seasoned people can do that will allow their younger groups to absorb a little bit more of that knowledge. And that's really what I think is important. We we say around here sometimes that this some of this happens through osmosis. Yeah, that's true. Sometimes it does. But if you're a little more direct in terms of talking about certain topics and you're approachable and you're always encouraging those discussions, then I think that's a great way for a little more of the informal knowledge sharing and behavior to happen. And that's really uh I I think that's one way that we can encourage that >> some planned osmosis. Not just say do this and we'll check in with you in six months and hope you did it right. you know that that isn't how we operate. >> I love that. So, we're actively reaching out, which I think is huge. That's what what we see in firms all the time that are doing well are the ones that are like leadership's taking that role. They're like, "No, I want to wa I want to talk to these people and I want to see what they're dealing with. I want to share, you know, like I said, planned osmosis versus just like, oh, we hope they soak it up." >> Right. >> Yes. >> Um, and those those conversations are so critical. And I think that's that's wonderful. And I think it leads me a little bit to another question I wanted to ask you was with today's competitive talent market. It sounds like you're doing some of this. What do you see is working well when it comes to recruiting and then re retaining those top engineering professionals? I assume some of it is meeting with them and talking to them. What else are you seeing that works? >> Right. Fiona, this is maybe some may think this is an obvious answer, but you know, of course, we have to have a competitive compensation and benefits package, which we definitely do, but everybody is probably generally in that same category. So, it becomes a little more difficult to differentiate yourself from some of the other competitors. What I think is one of the key benefits and advantages to our operation, our our company, is the projects that we get to work on. And so that coupled with approachable leaders and people that want to help teach and guide, I think that is really where we are above the rest or above a lot of the others and uh in terms of how we promote that. And I remember as a young engineer just being blown away by some of the projects I got to work on. Now when I was, you know, go back a couple of years, some of the team that was here in Raleigh, they got to work on some really incredible projects and I was very jealous and I reminded them, guys, you don't understand how special this is. You really need to understand that this doesn't come along, you know, maybe but once or twice in someone's career. So, uh, savor it and, uh, you know, these are the ways that we can help retain especially, but as new people are starting to come in and express interest, we can paint this picture and explain to them um, you know, what they're going to be able to have a chance to work on. And we can have some of our other people come in and say, "Yeah, he's what he's telling. He's not just telling you a story. This is real." And, uh, I think that goes a long way. >> Yeah. Keeping things interesting is so critical, right? The minute people start getting bored at work, you've got there's trouble ahead. >> But sometimes, you know, some things can be hard, but that's almost if it's interesting and hard, then then people want to show up on Monday at 8 a.m. and keep going. >> Yeah. >> That's >> Yeah. You want to be challenged and you want to be rewarded when it's overact, you know? It's like, man, I work through that >> and gosh, then you get to see one of these big jobs built. I mean, it's really rewarding. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, while we're talking about the younger end and getting people in, keeping them, what advice would you offer younger engineers who aspire to become technical leaders and business leaders? >> Don't rush it. >> No, I I mean, I'm serious about that. I think these days there can be a tendency for younger folks to think, you know, okay, I did that one time and now I'm an expert and I can move on to this. I'm a little bit from a different school of thought where uh practice makes perfect. And uh you know, you want to continue to develop your skills. you go through one project and you've already learned a lot and now you're going to apply apply those lessons that you've learned to the next one and so on and so forth and uh so definitely don't rush it but don't always take advantage of the opportunities that are presented to yourself be resourceful try to learn anticipation and what I mean by that is you know maybe identify where your piece of your project fits in with everybody else's maybe it's an overview of an overall project delivery. Uh try to understand where you fit and what the bigger picture is. I think some of those kinds of things are really helpful things that younger folks can do at any point in their career and those are leadership skills in the end. To be able to anticipate things that are coming is uh half the battle sometimes. And uh if that's something that younger folks can develop uh even at the project level, I think it'll benefit them in the future. >> Absolutely. And you know, we're all fighting with you know what we I think social media is probably part of it is that you know, everyone's doing the next thing. What's next? What's big? And it's hard to disconnect from that and say this is what I'm doing now and doing it right matters. And also >> taking advantage of the safety of like you get to try new things but someone's still checking that nothing's breaking all the way. Right. >> Right. Right. >> And to to live in that and hold it comfortably I think is something that um I will I'll put myself in this category. My generation younger it's hard to fight everything out there being like what's next? What's next? What's bigger? What's more? >> And it's in our face in a way that I think it in the past it never was. Right. you might have been more siloed to your firm saying like, "Oh, I see what's happening here and I understand the growth here, but now you're seeing what everybody else is doing all the time and it's hard not to compare." So, I love what you said is slow down and take it all in. >> Yeah. I I Yeah. I mean, even in my position now, there are days and I still am some I have some involvement with some technical work still, but it's a small percentage of my time now. >> But I do miss it. >> Yeah. I'll be totally honest and you know I've said it to others before and so you know when I see you know a mid-level engineer that's you know doing their thing on a project I you know it's just I really am so happy for them because you're going to miss it someday most likely and so uh again savor it. Yeah, the it's so it's so easy to say that once you're at a certain point, right, do you're going to miss this. Hold on to it, >> right? Yep. >> Oh, so remember Jason says you're going to miss it. Enjoy it. [laughter] And then on the opposite end of the spectrum, I wanted to ask you for firm leaders who are listening. So we kind of covered earlier career, we've got a whole another swath of people, the firm leaders who are listening and are thinking about leadership training for their teams, what should they be looking for to make sure it actually drives real impact? Oh yeah. I mean kind it's it's uh humorous to a certain extent because back in you know when we're going through our engineering curriculum it's not like you know outside of maybe an elective here or there uh there's not a whole lot of leadership training that happens at the uh you know in the engine college of engineering. And so, uh, it's it always is it's funny because all of a sudden, sometimes all of a sudden, uh, someone who is very technically savvy is now elevated to a leadership position. And it's almost like a fish out of water. And so, this is something that our company had recognized a while ago. And I was fortunate enough a couple years ago to work together with another senior uh leader in our company to create our own in-house professional development program. And I think one of the big takeaways for me uh was that it should not be approached as a one-sizefits-all. Uh, every firm, every company is a little bit different and there are different gaps in some of those leadership traits and qualities. And so being able to focus on what some of those are really helps to craft and tailor the program to be specific to your organization. And so to talk to the effectiveness uh part of the question, uh it's analogous to going to a seminar and learning a new piece of software. you learn the new software and then man you don't use it for six to nine months on a project or something and now you lost everything you learned. It's the same thing with leadership training. Uh you can read books, you can go to podcasts, uh you can do all kinds of different, you know, open discussions with groups or one-on-one. There's all different ways and and techniques and uh ways to absorb some of that information. But if you don't put it into practice and try really try some of the things, I'm not sure how effective it can be. And so I think really that's the the core of it is to give it a whirl and see how can it help me in my day-to-day practice. Whether that's in the business development arena, whether it's mentoring younger staff, whether it's uh you know leading teams of leaders, you know those kinds of things. Um, you got to try it and see what works for you and your organization. >> I could not say better myself. [laughter] >> You got to be committed to it. You know, doing the readings and all that is is fine, but you know, how does it apply to you and how does it apply to your group or your organization? I I think that's really the way to make it effective. >> Absolutely. It's one thing to do the reading. It's another to then sit together with your peers and talk about it. And then someone asks you two weeks later, hey, >> how did you try that out on your project and how did it go? >> Right. And then then it's locked in. Right. I think it reminds me back like, you know, when you learned math in elementary school, why'd you have to go home and do homework so that you'd lock it in for the evening, >> right? >> Right. So you use it and lock it in. I think leadership development is so similar and we have to go out there and practice and unfortunately sometimes make mistakes and [snorts] then debrief on it with our peers. Yeah. And I think the other, you know, another aspect of it too is the folks that want to develop to develop themselves as leaders, they have to be committed and say, "Hey, you know, maybe I'm a little weak over here. You know, what can I do?" So, you have to be a little bit vulnerable uh in order to make it effective as well. So, I I that's another aspect of it. If you just join the training and say, "Oh, I'm already a leader. You know, I don't need all this business." you know it's not going to be effective and you probably have a lot of gaps in individuals with that mentality. So uh I that's another part of the effectiveness. >> Yeah. Luckily what I see a lot is engineers are very happy to say everything can be improved. Tell me how I can improve this. That is one thing I have really enjoyed about working with engineers. >> Like there's got to be a better version. I've I and I love that. Anyway, thank you so much. This has been a lovely conversation. and I'm really looking forward to our listeners hearing what you have to say. I think you really hit a lot of key points and important things to think about when it comes to growth and leadership. You have any any last parting words? >> No, I I thank you for this opportunity to speak with you this morning. I uh I thought it was very nice and uh I think these topics are really important for for leaders and uh I think it'll make our entire industry better as if we can all focus on some more of these things. >> Absolutely. Thank you so much, Jason. Have a lovely day. >> You too. Thank you. >> Remember, [music] you can find the show notes for this episode at aecershippodcast.com. [music] There you'll find a summary of the key points discussed in today's episode as well as links to any of the resources, websites, or books mentioned during this episode. [music]