Video summary
The conversation centers on a profound psychological inverse to Victor Frankl's observation: while those lacking meaning often distract themselves with pleasure, individuals who cannot find deep pleasure tend to overcompensate by seeking intense purpose and significance in their work. The speaker reflects on how many high-achievers permanently delay gratification, struggling to simply relax or enjoy lightness because they lack the psychological disposition for it. This dynamic is illustrated through the archetype of people who view running up a mountain as fun rather than eating donuts or watching TV; for them, happiness is inextricably linked to suffering and effort. The speaker notes that while some figures like Jocko Willink or David Goggins seem happiest when miserable, this definition of joy differs from the simple pleasure most people seek, creating a tension between finding ease versus maintaining intensity. A significant portion of the discussion addresses the role of measurables in success and personal satisfaction. The speaker acknowledges their own love for metrics like miles run, podcast downloads, and subscriber counts as tools to bring control into a messy world, yet they consciously limit reliance on them because these numbers do not capture true impact or connection. They argue that chasing immediate results often leads people to trade longevity for intensity, much like an unperiodized powerlifter who pushes their one-rep max repeatedly until injury occurs rather than building steady progress over ten years. The speaker suggests that waking up excited to speak with a guest is the best indicator of current life satisfaction and joy, noting that periods where they feel indifferent about upcoming episodes signal a need for adjustment before burnout sets in. The dialogue explores the danger of "gold medalist syndrome," where achieving one goal immediately prompts the search for another, leaving individuals without direction once a milestone like reaching three million subscribers is hit. The speaker references James Clear's concept from *Atomic Habits* that people fall to the level of their systems rather than rise to the level of their goals, emphasizing that while goals provide necessary dopamine-driven direction, long-term success requires sustainable habits and patience. This tension between goal-oriented growth and system-based maintenance is further illustrated by parenting examples; parents often start with rigid outcomes like getting a child into an Ivy League university but eventually realize they simply want their children to be happy and have fun, understanding that it is easier to achieve happiness than to eliminate the obsession with status once established. Ultimately, the speakers agree on the importance of authenticity over external validation in creative endeavors. They contrast two types of work: projects driven by a desire for status or financial gain versus those rooted in genuine artistic expression where one simply wants to "pick up the weight" and be honest about who they are at that moment. The speaker mentions having interviewed four out of five desired guests, including Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Naval Ravikant, and Joe Rogan, jokingly referring to this as possessing most of Thanos's Infinity Stones, but questions whether continuing solely for recognition is sustainable. They conclude that the best feedback comes from knowing a conversation deeply impacted listeners rather than download counts, suggesting that true fulfillment lies in creating work that feels like "really me" without being driven by the need to win or be recognized by others.
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There's a quote from Victor Frankle that
says when a man can't find a deep sense
of meaning they distract themselves with
pleasure right and his point is I think
that if your life is uh barereft of a
higher purpose you uh look at hedonism
and and and short-term gratification and
stuff like that. I think there's an
inverse and I think that you and maybe
me as well are good examples of the
inverse that when a man can't find a
deep sense of pleasure they distract
themselves with meaning. Mhm.
And that if your dayto-day experience of
life, I don't know, just sort of joy and
like play and ease and fun and
lightness, if that's just not what you
grew up being taught or that's not sort
of your psychological set point or
disposition or it just doesn't come as
easily to you as it does maybe to other
people. Uh I I think I see in a lot of
the people that are like overachievers
uh in the winning the marshmallow test
of life just permanently delaying
gratification. Um I think I see that as
quite a common
archetype that how how easily do you
switch off, smoke weed, and play Xbox?
It's like [ __ ] impossibly like it
doesn't happen. Yeah. And and how much
sort of play and ease and grace and joy,
you know, how easy does sort of
enjoyment and lightness come? It's like,
you know, sometimes things are kind of
heavy and I apply pressure to myself or
even when it's not needed and sometimes
I struggle to give myself a break and so
on and so forth. So, I think that yeah,
that uh when a man can't find a deep
sense of pleasure, they distract
themselves with meaning. um you know,
instead of just having a fun Saturday
morning with the kids. Mhm. It's like
we're taking a big rock and a couple of
small rocks and we're going up that
[ __ ] hill again. Yeah. Yeah. It's uh
Yeah. When you when you were saying
that, I was thinking about
um Yeah. I don't know. It's uh I'm I'm
happiest when I'm suffering. So, I've
heard people say like they said this
mostly about Gogggins. I know you've
talked to him too, but it's just like
asking him. was like, "Are you ever
happy?" It's just
like for him, he's happy when he's
miserable. So, it's like, "Well, whose
definition of happy are you talking
about? Is you're happy eating [ __ ]
donuts, watching TV?" Mhm. That sounds
miserable to me. So, it's like the
people that get these words and they're
like, "Are you happy? Are you enjoying
yourself or do you ever have fun?" It's
like running up that mountain is fun.
That's what I like. So yeah, it's uh
when you're talking about pleasure and
passion, I was trying to to weigh that
out there on on what is what is
happiness for people, you know? And also
another thing, um I see you put up like
3 million subscribers. So it's like, is
that what type of does that do anything
for you? Is that I mean because you'll
never let off. You're like, "Okay, I
made it. I'm good. I got three million.
That was my goal." But you put that up
like sometimes people will put up things
like like I made it like this is my I'm
here but I've arrived to you that's just
what is that
just a benchmark just another little
destination I suppose I I what what is
the goal? Do you have a goal? Uh not in
terms of sort of money or follow account
or anything like that. Uh I think I did
originally even though I didn't have a
number in mind. Um, I I think I wanted
to
be I wanted to become really proficient
at something. I wanted to be able to say
that I was like I'd reached something
close to mastery or competence. You like
I was competent at this thing and and
people respected that and recognized
that especially people that I respected
and that I admired. How do you is that a
measurable that tells you that? No. So,
because some people like look at I
haven't even looked at where your
podcast is on the charts today. Okay.
You know, so I'm I like measurables.
Like I like I need to do this many miles
this vast at this pace. I want, you
know, this many downloads to the pot.
It's like I love measure measurables
and I think the my boys have kind of
taken on that too. I love that too. I
think it's a good way to bring some
control into a messy world. Um I I have
just tried to sort of put a bit of a
speed limiter on how much I rely on it
because
I at least for me it is not the most
important metric. The most important
metric is something that's pretty
intangible which is how much did I
connect with the guest? How much did it
impact the the people that were
listening? And a lot of the time the
episodes that do sometimes the episodes
that do the most plays are the ones that
are the most impactful and they
certainly reach the most people, right?
But I don't know how, you know, deeply
that really changes people. Mhm. Um, and
I'm at the stage now, at least with this
particular art form, where I'm trying to
really really connect with the person
I'm sitting opposite and I'm really
really trying to understand why they are
the way they are or what it is that
people should understand or learn about
them. And none of that is going to
appear on a YouTube analytics
spreadsheet. It simply doesn't. And the
The measurement stuff is good and it
ensures that you're at least keeping an
eye on one or a few things. I'm the sort
of person, I think, that would become
very obsessed by it. Yeah. And and I
need to be aware of that and I need to
account for that because it's not all
that matters. You know, um what would be
something
else? A lot of people trade intensity.
They in the very beginning they use
intensity, but the thing that keeps you
going is your longevity, right? That's
what we said, the consistency thing. And
they trade longevity for intensity. And
if you're just chase chase chase chasing
the numbers, you're able to see the
immediate effect of your work. This is
the same with uh powerlters, let's say.
So, you're a powerlifter in the gym and
you're pushing yourself RP9, RP 9.5, RP
10 over and over again. You're not
periodizing. You're not taking weeks off
and you're going, "Dude, my numbers are
going up. I'm [ __ ] crushing it. I'm
crushing it. I'm crushing it. Snap.
Yeah. You go. Okay. Well, what was the
goal? What really what was the goal? The
goal was to get the numbers to go up,
but the goal is to get the numbers to go
up steadily over 10 years. Mhm. And all
that you can see is such a short amount
of time in front of you. And I think
that you should be careful about trading
longevity for intensity. Mhm. Um because
and at least with the show for me, the
more fired up I am when I wake up on a
morning, and I think this is just the
best judgment of sort of where your
life's at at the moment and how much joy
you're getting out of life. When you
wake up, when your alarm goes off on a
morning, how excited are you to get out
of bed? I think that's a pretty good
rubric for how's life going right now.
It's not going to be like that forever.
You know, it's going to be better and
worse and sometimes really worse and
sometimes really better. And if I wake
up on a morning and I go, "Fuck yeah,
like I get to speak to Cam today." Like
that's really exciting. Tomorrow I've
got Will Store, like science of
storytelling, [ __ ] awesome author. He
did the status game. I'm [ __ ] fight.
I can't wait. And then, you know, there
was periods in the show where I wake up
and I'm like, "H, who am I talking to
today?" H yeah, that'll be all right.
You know, maybe the episode would be
great. maybe it would even be a really
great performance, but if it didn't
speak to me. Um, so very much in that
sort
of I don't
know postgrowth thing uh where I've
already got at least with regards to the
show so much further than I ever thought
I was going to [ __ ] move continents.
Mhm. and came over to this this new
country and made all of these friends
and you know have lifted myself out of a
area of the UK that's it was literally
only famous for having the highest teen
pregnancy rating in the UK and then it
lost that so it didn't even have that
anymore
um
I I've already won I've already won so
trying to find ease grace joy and just
seeing how that works me for a little
bit because I've very much applied the
sort of Cam Haynes Gogggins. Yeah. Uh
mindset for a while and I can totally
see me turning around in 6 months or two
years or whatever and being like, "All
right, time to really [ __ ] grip the
bar again." I'm just seeing, okay, what
happens if I try and have a little bit
more play with this and what happens if
I go back in the other direction? Yeah,
I was curious about that just because
we're so inundated with these
measurables every day with the follower
count, the likes, the, you know, when
you start getting into podcast and it is
a downloads because then that affects
what you can ask for advertisers and
they that's all they give a [ __ ] about.
They don't care about what type of
connection you had with your guest.
They're like, "Okay, cool. How many
downloads was it?" You know? So it's
like we get kind of roped into this to
this trap of everything is measurable
and it's like you're not successful
unless you're here and then when you're
here you better be here. So I was just
kind of curious how you how you
navigated that just because it is it's
life nowadays. It it is and it's and
it's easy. It's an easy
like everybody loves like how do I
compare? So it's an easy comparison.
That's why you look at the lists on like
whose podcast is highest rated, right?
But uh I think Joe's done a really good
job of this too. It's like and I want to
kind of adopt Well, your mindset is very
similar now. Um to that's why he can
have on somebody like me who when I
first went on there nobody nobody knew
who I was but he Joe doesn't care. He's
just like am I interested in this
person? Most podcasts are like, "Let's
go with the biggest guest that's gonna
give me the biggest." I dude, I I really
I really think that you can look back on
a body of work that
was like disembodied, disconnected
successes. Or you can look back on
something and be like, "Yeah, that was
me." Mhm. Like that was really me. I put
myself out there. And there's some
people, let's say that you're in a
sport, right? Let's say that you're a
powerlifter or something like that. You
want to be the best in the world. You
want to be the best in the world. It's
not about manifest manifesting your
[ __ ] artistic expression on the
lifting platform. Pick the [ __ ]
weight up. Okay? You know what I mean?
Can you pick it up or not? Can you pick
it up or not? And the goal is to pick
the [ __ ] weight up. And however you
get there is how you do it. Now, you may
feel transcendent. You may feel like
this is you really sort of actualizing
your potential and doing it in the
world. But uh my goal is to look back on
this period of life and look back on you
know the library of work that I do and
go yeah like that was really me. That
was exactly where I was. I really tried
to be open and honest with myself. Uh
it's a selfish project and I think that
the best ones are and not everyone can
do this. Not everyone can be selfish
with with what it is that they get to do
for art because if you're a
trader, oh, please tell me about how
your your artistic [ __ ] expression
helped you lose money on that USD JPY
trade. No, you you have a very very
tightly defined outcome. Um, but in some
other writing books and stuff like that,
you could write a book, you would sell
tons and tons of copies, but you weren't
connected to and you get loads of
success. How do you feel after that? And
for some people, they may take a ton of
well-being and satisfaction and joy and
all the rest of the stuff, meaning from
it just being successful. They just
wanted the success. And I get the sense
that maybe the first few books or the
first few projects or the first few
businesses or the first few years of the
podcast or whatever might be you playing
that game, but then after a while you
go, okay, well kind of satiated my
desire for status and and and maybe
money or being recognized by all of
these people. I had this I made this
joke with regards to the show that I
kind of had the uh five infinity stones
from Thanos's Glove. Yeah. Uh I had uh
Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, Alander
Boton from the School of Life, Naval
Ravocant, and Joe Rogan as like the five
people that I wanted. And I've got four
of them. And Joe texted after the last
episode and was like, "Don't forget we
need to do an episode on Modern Wisdom."
So I'm like, "Okay, well once I do that,
if all it was was about being I've got
gold medalist syndrome, why do you go
from that?" And that's a genuine
question and that's still something
that's true. Every time that you
complete a new goal, Mhm. You have to
ask yourself, okay, well, what is my
life now that I've completed this thing
that I was working toward for a long
time? And that's the danger of goals,
right? You know, James Clear got this
right in atomic habits where he said,
you don't rise to the level of your
goals, you fall to the level of your
systems. So, you just need to iterate
and keep going and keep going and it it
helps with longevity. But there is no
growth without goals because you need a
goal to give you a [ __ ] direction to
move in. Or else you're just like
growing outwardly but not moving toward
a particular thing. It's not great for
the way that motivation works, dopamine,
positive reinforcement, all that stuff.
So again, it's this tension. It's this
balance between the two, but I get the
sense and it'll be interesting, you
know, in a year's time, couple years
time when we chat and you're episode 300
for me to go, okay, and what's driving
you now? Like how how do you feel about
the show? And I would guess that you're
going to say, you know what, it is like
actually I'm kind of taking my eye off
the ball with regards to the metrics a
little bit. M I'm really interested
in
having conversations with underground.
I'm really platforming people that, you
know, no one knows about or I I've
really enjoyed delving into this area of
whatever. And uh I think that is a
realization that lots of people come to.
I think they come to it maybe with even
raising kids that you think I'm going to
get the kid into the
Harvard Ivy League university. I'm going
to get them to be the captain of the
this team or they're going to be the top
in this particular pursuit or whatever.
And then after a while you go, I just
kind of want them to have fun. Want them
to be happy. Yeah. And I thought that I
could get them there through that. But
you kind of need
to It's far easier to achieve it than it
is to get rid of it. Yeah. Uh because if
you haven't achieved it, it's always in
the back of your mind as a you know that
might have been the answer, right? So
you need to do it to see that it isn't
it. Like Naval says, uh the reason to
win the game is to be rid of the game.
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, it's
a it's a tough one. It's like
uh you know, you want to be successful.
You want you I I like I I think when I
was you were kind of explaining that the
best feedback is when somebody says they
really enjoyed whatever discussion you
had or um and they're not talking about
how many people listen to it, you know,
it's just how it impacted them. And it's
like I'm not I'm not great at quote
podcasting, which is why I do the lift
run shoot with my guests to make to
because I can connect on that and then
that hopefully helps the conversation.
Um but yeah, it's uh it's tough. It's
tough sitting down and really
um yeah, I don't know. I mean, maybe
it's not tough. Maybe it's just we don't
do this. Maybe we How often do you sit
down and just talk to somebody? I never
do it like not like this. So maybe it's
like maybe you can learn a lot just by
having a discussion and maybe a podcast
is an excuse that we ne we wouldn't have
we wouldn't do this normally. Yeah. Cuz
I'm not going to be like call up one of
my buddies and say, "Hey, you want to go
talk for a couple hours?" It's like
nobody would say sure. It sounds like
you're saying that you find sort of
doing the podcast is one of the more or
most difficult things that it is that
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