What Happened to Nonresistant People During World War I? - Chester Weaver

court marshall prison abuse and the last two Anabaptist martyrs happened over this time these pacifists and chains the two Hoer brothers there's four hutterites in the story but two of them died it's the last antibaptist martyrs we've had >> and then when they got close to al Fort Levvenworth they had to get out of the train and run at Bonet point to the place they were going and by the time they got there they were sweating overheated And then the uh commanders told them to take their clothes off and they had to stand in freezing temperatures for a while. So there is a hugely significant world event that happened like 115 years ago, something like that, and that's World War I. And it's kind of shocking to to when you start try to process the scale of that, something like 37 to 40 million casualties or something crazy. I mean that's including civilians as well and he encompassed so much of the western world really including America but there's a part of that story that I don't know very well uh and that's how it affected the Menanites and so I'd want to have you on today Chester to talk about that the American Menanite story during World War I particularly all those Menanite young men that were drafted into the US military over that time and what their response was what that experience was like for them. This is a big topic. We're not going to cover it in thorough detail. I mean, there's all these books written about it and things, but at least want to touch on that um today. So, are there some groundwork foundational pieces that you want us to start us off with as we get into the topic? >> Yes. Um the Revolutionary War in America and the Civil War were different kinds of wars and the 50 years that separated the Civil War with the First World War. Things had shifted in America quite a bit because the industrial revolution had brought in all these new inventions. Improved railroads, we have uh the telephone, we have the telegraph, we have air with the Wright brothers as though there's this huge optimism in the United States that we are really progressing here and esqueologically postmillennialism was in focus. If things are getting so good, we expect Christ to break into this after a while and really just take things over. >> Oh, postmillennialism being uh the millennium happens after the return or how does that go even? I'm not not quite sure all the difference. >> He's just going to step in to where men had brought it and take it from there. >> Oh, because humans are doing such a good job basically. Interesting. People don't really believe that anymore. >> No, because World War I destroyed it and it has not really resurrected since. >> That's interesting. If if you think in the context of the of the war, so it's 1914 to 19818, right? >> From 1914 basically up through 1917, America is not in the war. They get kind of pulled in or however you want to look at it, you know, historically um towards the end. >> Yes. >> And this is a huge shift for the American >> for for the country of America because they hadn't fought >> foreign on on foreign soil really, I guess, to to this scale. I guess >> there there was a Mexican war, but that was only short. >> I mean, Spanish American war, I mean. >> Okay. >> Spanishame >> and not to the scale that >> That's right. >> was about to happen with World War I. >> So, we'll get into that. The the draft um the how did this affect the Menite churches. Again, we'll start broad and then as we go, we'll narrow it in on some specific stories. >> Okay. So there's never been a war so vast that it all it started out with all volunteers because the people who fought this war were fighting it at first not because they had to because they believed in America. It's like this is going to be the ward to end all wars. This is going to be the war that makes the world safe for democracy. There's this huge reform movement that goes along with postmillennialism. It's like anybody who uh is opposed to this is just kind of out of it. And so the war was almost like an effort to force the extension of human progress. And so if you were not willing to get involved with human progress, there's something wrong with you. And so of course this clashed hugely with Anabaptist uh people in this country. I don't know if you want to go there right now or if you want to talk about the bigger picture as a whole. So Woodro Wilson uh he was a a progressivist and he just believed that his ideas including the League of Nations just need to be in place. >> He's a on character like he kind of looks at himself as almost like this Jesus messianic >> Yes. And figure or something. He believed in himself so much that partway through his administration, he had a nervous breakdown and his wife had to take over. >> This is the president of the United States. >> And then Yeah. >> And then we had Theodore Roosevelt who's also very much of a a progressivist. I mean, the world is really making huge leaps forward. And Theodore Roosevelt has zero tolerance for anybody who won't fight because this progress that we're doing is worth being fought for. And theore Roosevelt's wife died and it was a shock of his life. He had to go west to to his cattle country to even recover from that. But uh by his own bootstraps he pulled himself up and eventually he was elected president. And that's a whole uh bit in its own. The point being here that there was never a time in American history where everybody was so upbeat led by the national government, the president uh or more than one president and uh the mood, the zeitgeist for the country was so upbeat that anybody who was not in step had a problem. Well, the war with Germany was against the Germans. They called them the Huns, the barbarians. See, these are the benited people, the Kaiser, the uh the the Prussian absolutists, the Prussian dictators in contrast to American democracy. Uh >> oh. >> And uh constitutional the rule of law and benevolent reform. All this contrastes sharply with what was going on in Prussia and Germany. >> I hadn't really thought about that. And okay. And then that puts the Metanites and the Amish at the time in a difficult spot because they're speaking German. They're speaking a German dialect. >> Exactly. And that's one of the main reasons that the that the public turned on them because these people, Menanites, Anabaptist people were German speakers. >> You guys must be sympathizing with the ignorant. You folks are not even educated. You are ignorant too, just like those Germans over there. And we need to do something about that. So the US government joins the war, declares war, joins World War I. They initiate >> 1917. >> April 1917. Okay. So they initiate a draft at some point in there because you need a lot of guys to get on boats and go over there and fight in the trenches of World War I basically. Yes. Which I I don't even know the numbers, but the amount of >> people called up in that draft was enormous in America. I don't Would you know the numbers all the time? the numbers right in front of me so I better not venture. >> Yeah. I mean hundreds of thousands I'm sure but >> so what happens to the Menanites in that process. >> Okay. So uh when the Menanites began to be called there there was a conscription act and all the Menanites who were of a certain age I think 18 to there were two drafts. One of them was from 18 to 26 the next was 18 to 36 or something like that. All the boys at that age were just waiting for their letter. >> And this book here, non-resistance under test is the story of a young man and his father and his father and he had talked about the fact that he'll probably be called. And so when he got his letter, you know, the father and the son met and uh the father asks the son, "Are you ready?" And it was an emotional time. He gives, it's an autobiography here. It's really touching. And he didn't know those boys when they got called. There was no alternate service. >> No conscientious status that you >> The government recognized the peace churches that they didn't have to go fight. >> They had to go to camp, but they didn't have to go fight. >> Okay. >> But the exemptions they had were only for the war machine, combatant and non-combatant. You had to do those. And the absolutist position that this boy took, this is Brethren in Christ, by the way. >> They didn't know what they're going to face. And my hat is off to all these boys who were left to for these camps not knowing what they would face. >> And these are horrendous stories of what they faced when they were there. >> Court marshall prison. >> Court marshall prison abuse. And the last two Anabaptist martyrs happened over this time. these pacifists and chains, the two Hoofer brothers. There's four Hutterites to the story, but two of them died. It's the last Anabaptist martyrs we've had. >> Now, let's get into that story specifically. So, if they're you're calling them martyrs. So, they were what? Court marshaled and executed for not going to war. Like, what happened to them? >> They were Hutterites. And when they were called, I could you'd have to read this. This is an entire book about this story. So, I'm going to just give it in brief here. Somehow, they had to go to prison in Fort Lewis in the state of Washington. On the way out to this prison, in the train car, the boys who were traveling with them uh were abusing them, cutting their beards off and just abusing them on the way be to the prison. Well, after they were at the prison, uh they refused to sign work orders because the work orders basically said you are uh under detention by the US government and you cannot refuse lawful commands and they refused that. >> Okay. So, long story short, they got sent to Alcatraz Island, which is this picture right here. >> They got sent to Alcat Alcatraz, right? >> No way. >> All four of them. And so they were chain chained up in Alcatraz >> uh for a while and while they're there they're they're chained they their hand had their hands crossed like this and their feet barely touched the floor and so they couldn't do anything and they and within five days they got boils over them and insect bites that they couldn't do anything and so finally they were released they were released and they had to go back to Fort Levvenworth in Kansas which is a military prison >> and Alcatraz didn't break them and So on the way back from California to to Kansas is a long way and they got overheated in the train car with other people and then when they got close to al uh Leaven Fort Levvenworth they had to get out of the train and run at Bonet Point to the place they were going and by the time they got there they were sweating overheated and then the uh commanders told them to take their clothes off and they had to stand in freezing temperatures for a while and two of these boys got sick. and the other two made out a little bit better. And the two that were sick were put into the hospital and they weren't doing too well. And so one of the other boys, the three brothers and one brother-in-law and the brother-in-law called the boys as wives. The all all four three of the both hover brothers were married. The brother-in-law was not married. So the ladies the wives of these three men got on the train and somehow got to the wrong prison. They got to Fort Riley instead of Fort Levvenworth >> until they got to Fort Levvenworth. One of these boys, I think it was Joseph, was on his deathbed. And she she got there either right after he died or right before he died. And whenever he died, they put him in the box in military uniform, which was just a slap in the hutterite's face. The other boy was survived until his wife got there and he died in the arms of his brother who did not die. And uh these three boys also had children. And uh of course these two boys the way it looks died at the hands of mistreatment by the uh the military people who were in charge. Of course the government does not want to admit that. What would the file say? Like the the official military record? >> No, you'd have to this book probably details it, but I forget to what what it all says, but uh >> it's pretty obvious they died at the hands of their persecutors. >> But uh the other Hutterite brother survived and uh and this other boy who was a Kiper, Jacob, I'm sorry, Jacob Whip. It's it's incredible. They abused this other Hutterite brother. They pulled him around by his feet in a barracks uh and his bare back and he had splinters that went up into his body as a result of all this. And um somehow he survived. The other two boys, I guess the shock of being sweated and the standing in the cold was just too much. Well, these other boys, I don't know if they had a little stronger constitution, but they survived it. So, I just bless Dwayne Stoz for writing the story. It's the persecution of Hutterites during the Great War. Everybody needs to read that story. >> That's literally the subtitle which um >> and this which which interestingly enough is published by a major >> Yes. >> University John Hopkins here in Baltimore [clears throat] published this book. Um I mean I'm going to say it wasn't even that long ago. >> No, that's right. It's a recent publication. >> Yeah. 2020 uh 2013. So I mean that's almost a hundred years after the event itself happens. So you can imagine something like this was like well maybe it was known to like their church and their family but a lot in a lot of ways that story is kind of lost until someone like this a historian digs. >> So one of the things that I find is really unique is their gravestones >> are look look like that and they don't have gravestones. They're just simply markers to say these hoofers martyr. That is their gravestone. I don't >> Yeah, you're right. Right. There's the name Dash Martyr. >> Yeah. I [clears throat] don't know if there's more than that there today or not. >> Yeah. Both 1918. Wow. >> You know, and that's just an, you know, a few stories out of thousands of Menanite and Amish young men that endured things like this. So somehow it seemed like the US government picked out on the Hutterites to I don't know what you say, make them a special target. I wonder why. Oh, >> okay. So may I read just a little bit in here. >> I can't explain why except that they defied >> Hutterites are Christian communism. It's the only Christian communism has ever worked. And my guess is the US com US government is capitalist and this >> they didn't like that. It probably sounded a little too much like the Bolsheviks in Russia or something. >> Yeah, I got it. Yeah. >> Okay. So, being that I think this is particularly interesting. By the summer of 1918, feelings between some Hutterite colonies and their neighbors had become quite tense. Mhm. >> In August 1918, attorney Wyman of Yankton, South Dakota, complained about the Hutterites lack of patriotism and disinterest in public affairs. >> To Wyman, these nonconformist, non-resistant communitarians were undesirable citizens and a menace to the community. >> Surely, yes, surely wise men spoke for many of his fellow citizens. And I think that illustrates the reason why they were a special target. They were a menace to America. >> So, the Hutterites finally offered $10,000 toward war relief if the money would go for humanitarian purposes. But the South Dakota Council of Defense demanded 5% of the proceeds of possible future land sales, an amount to be invested in Liberty Bonds, and contributed to the Red Cross. >> See, the Liberty Bonds were all free. Uh uh you and I could buy Liberty Bonds. Well, the liberty bonds was a loan to the American government to wage the war. >> And that's how the the US government financed this war through liberty bonds, the sale of liberty bonds. It wasn't through taxes. >> It's the same with World War II. You had a lot of the war bonds and you know Yeah. >> The Hutterites agreed. They contributed some $25,000 of the purchase of bonds, $4,000 to the Red Cross, $1,000 to the State Council of Defense. But the Yankton County of Defense wanted more and assessed the Bonhham co colony for 12,000. The colony refused on the grounds it had already purchased some $5,000 in liberty bonds and contributed $51285 to Red Cross. So in early May 1918, the Yankton County of Council of Defense dispatched a squad of good citizens, now get that, a squad of good citizens to Hutterite pastures. There they seized 1,000 sheep and 100 head of cattle. On May 15, the local liberty loan committee sold the animals at public auction for $16,000, although the Hutterites put the value at 40,000 or more. with the proceeds. The committee tried to buy Liberty Bonds, but local federal officials, perhaps having done some having some qualms about the ethics of the legality of the plan, refused to accept the proceeds. So, the money was placed in the Yankton bank in the colony's name. At first, the Hutterites also refused to accept the money. But later, having had enough of South Dakota, the colony used it to help buy land in Canada. And so all the colonies, all the Hutterates decide they're going to move to Canada. We cannot even live with the American government. And so they all moved to Canada except the Bonham colony. And they were probably would haveh followed suit if uh if the war had not ended. So let me finish here. But the story did not end with Bonham. Either shortly before or after that colony's troubles. a matter of a number of patriots invaded the Elm Springs colony near Alexander, South Dakota, and badly beat up two of its members. And back in Bonham, someone broke into the grist mill and tried to adulterate the flower by face placing glass in flower sacks. In June 1918, someone stole 82 gallons of wine from the Jamesville colony. The thief was found, but no charges were filed. Later using the prohibition act, local officials raided the Bonhham colony and confiscated its wine. Despite the law, the arm on Armmesus' day, some celebrants distributed the wine at the county seat. [laughter] In the meantime, in May 1918, the state council of defense brought suit against the Hutterite colonies of Bonham Col County, asking for their dissolution. Get rid of these Hutterites. Wow. >> The council argued that the colonies had transacted business while complaining to be a religious corporation, that the leaders had undue influence over the members, and that they had refused to supply men and money for defense. The case reached the South Dakota Supreme Court, and in 1919, the court ruled against the Hutterites. >> This is at the state supreme court level. >> Yes. >> Whoa. However, already before that ruling, the first Hutterites had left South Dakota in hopes of finding a more hospitable environment in Canada. >> No way. >> And so, uh, there's the rest of the story. I didn't realize that's how at least some of the Hutterites ended up in Canada, actually, because of persecution during World War I. >> But after the war was over, a bunch of them moved back into the US again. >> Yeah, that's that's kind of bizarre though. Like, >> it is bizarre. This is the land of the free. >> Mhm. >> Except you can't be free. You have to agree with the government with this progressivism. >> Yeah. And I I can see that where they this was perceived as a threat like in in times of war if you're a defeist as they say, right? Yes. >> That's a problem. Yes. Like you saw that especially during World War II, whatever. Like there were consequences for these things. Yes. >> Um and so I can see that like I can see the American government saying, "Well, you guys are defeist. You're not fitting into >> Yes. >> what the expectation is at the current time and this is how things are going to go. >> Yes. >> Oh boy. So >> let's let's look again at those guys that got drafted. Right. So you've got I was doing some reading and maybe you would have other numbers which a lot of the records from World War I had been lost because of a fire through the through the archive back in 1973 which is a bit of a shame >> but from what we know of what's left. >> Yes. um is around 2,000 or so that had been drafted and then were like no we're not going to fight or something like that of the medit >> like what about those 20 I mean a lot more were drafted but those are the ones who end up having to go through the >> non-combatant two stories of that relates to this so the garlic clinch story is in coals of fire this is a classic this was written by Elizabeth H Bowman was published in 1954 by Herald press >> this book influenced me as a boy the pictures are still with me to this day. This book was written at the request of the peace problems committee. This is an anthology of 17 stories with pictures. And there's a story in here that's also a story in here. >> Okay. >> Okay. And uh I want to tell that story. So this Garly clinch, these boys were put into into prison by because they're not going to cooperate with what's going on. They won't put on the uniforms and so they get put in prison. Well, this Garly clinch is 70-year-old guard and he does not like these boys. He adopts the whole progressivist mentality. These guys are no good. And so here he has these no good guys under his control. And so he lets them know that he is not happy with them. But the boys would not be mean to him. In fact, to encourage themselves, they sang to themselves. And he would listen to this. And finally, one day when a new boy from camp was put into the guard house, he says, "Okay, boys, I brought you another one of yours. You do me a favor. Would you sing for me?" Cuz he had begun to soften. And so they asked for a song as a further in indication of his softening. So the boys gladly sang the song to him. He appreciated that and uh eventually they sang more songs to him and finally most of the boys were were released. Sometime later after the war was over and these boys were out released from prison, the swam was having meetings someplace and he saw one of his uh prison mates in the audience and he went to him. His name is Morrison. And they got to talking about this Garly clinch. And this Morrison said, "Well, did you know the end? Do you know the end of that story?" And he said, "Eventually before everybody left, Garly came to one of these boys and uh they were able to lead him to Christ." >> Yes. >> Okay. Okay. But didn't stop with that. Before they were actually released, Garly Clinch came to one of these boys and says, "Look, my family, I have a Bible, but my family does not value it. I want to give one of this Bible to you. You folks value this more than my family. My things are going to go to my family, but my family are not going to value this." And they ended up giving Garlic Clinch gave his Bible to this. I don't know who it was. And I just think that is such a neat story. These boys operated so well under test that the prison guard was converted. >> And he didn't didn't make just an intellectual decision. He felt so strongly about it he gave them his own Bible. All right, that's one story. The other story is is in this book, Pastor John. Uh it's it's also in this book. Now, this is a pastor. This is not a boy in prison, but this is an extensive story, so I'm going to have to try to tell you this the best I can remember. But this story about Pastor John happened in the state of Montana. These are general conference menites who were still not wanting to fight and they were also German. And uh Pastor John was taken was going to a school meeting in their community. And uh he had gotten his mail before he went into the meeting. But be when he got there, he noticed there were two cars, strange cars parked out by the road. And uh after he got into the meeting, it was about the time they started because they walked in and it started soon thereafter. And a man came up to Pastor John, Pastor Fron, and said, "Would you come with me?" And so he went out and outside there was a bunch of other men that hustled him and wanted him to get into a car. Well, Pastor John wasn't interested, but they forced him to get into the car. Well, inside the meeting, the schoolhouse, the wife noticed what's the scuffles going on outside. So she went out and said, "Why? Where are you going to take my husband?" And they said, "It's none of your business." And they knocked her down, knocked her unconscious to the ground, had put her husband in the car, and took off. Well, after they got to a place, they went up a hill. Well, in the car, Pastor John noticed that there were shovels, a gun, and a rope in the car. And so when they got to this place, they took him on the arm. And the picture's in the book. This is what sticks in my little brain. and they brought him up to this tree where they're going to hang him. And uh the sheriff was in this crowd and the prosecuting attorney was in this crowd. And Pastor John said, "Do you really want a murder on the hands of this area?" He says, "My father is an American citizen born here. My sorry, I'm a legal American citizen. My father was too. And my grandfather was a naturalized citizen. Are you really want to do kill Americans?" Well, they said, "Well, the reason we need to kill you is you have a German newspaper." You know, he was carrying he got this out of the mailbox. You have a German newspaper here. It's like the worst thing you could do is speak German. So, the the the sheriff said, "Okay, guys." And instead of killing him, why don't we just put him in prison for a while? So, they didn't kill him. And they evidently were drunk and the sheriff was less than drunk. And so he was able to convince them. So they put him in prison and his wife and children came to visit with him. And finally there was a bail raised of of quite of money that the local people didn't think the locals could raise but they promptly did and Pastor John was released. Okay. So that's not quite the end of the story. Years later, one of these men came back and apologized. Pastor John for being involved in that. >> So a number of people in the hysteria, the anti-German hysteria did things that they knew better >> and a few of them were brave enough to come back and apologize for the things that they did. So speaking of these things, this has a bit of a family connection for myself. I remember my grandfather who who just passed away a few years ago telling stories about how um his dad had been drafted during World War I and when grandpa passed away we got those old papers and I was looking at them with my mom this week and I was like I have to bring these to the interview. So you haven't seen these yet have you? >> Um okay so I feel like it kind of makes the point right of what we're talking about. Yes. >> But my great-grandfather >> Emory Hosteller is his name >> was called up in the draft and we have all the papers here. So, I think I'm gonna read these or some of these and and we can look at these. >> This is priceless. Your family was very wise in preserving this. >> I'm so glad grandpa kept this. Um, all right. So, here we go. Order of induction into military service of the United States. The President of the United States to Emmery John Hosteller. Order number 98, serial number 61. Greeting. Having submitted yourself to a local board composed of your neighbors for the purpose of determining the place and time in which you are best ser you can best serve the United States in the present emergency. You are hereby notified that you have now been selected for immediate military service. >> Just imagine getting this in the mail. You know thousands thousands of menite young men getting this in the mail in 1918. You will therefore report the local board named below at New Philadelphia, Ohio at 4:00 p.m. on the 18th day of August 1918 for military duty from and after the day and hour just named. You will be a soldier in the military service of the United States. Signed LH I I can't quite read the signature. Um Orton, I think, member of of local board of number one. And it says the county of Ohio report to local board of date uh stamped again at the bottom August 19 1918. Uh and then and in that process he's actually getting these and you might find these really interesting. These are the different notification cards he was getting throughout. I'm I'm amazed he kept all this stuff right. Um so here's the registration certificate. Um so this is to register you before he's actually selected. Uh this one is from June. So this was a process. I mean, you know, this is a process going on. Um, so registration certificate sign for Emry John Hosteller. So, there's that one. And I think I have these in the correct >> date here. Uh, yes, I do. So, I want to go through each of these like postcard notifications he's getting in the mail. >> Yes. >> Um, so order number, you know, blah blah blah. Serial number 61. Um, signed, uh, for selective service regulations. Um, this is in July. Um, and then here's the next one. A few days later, you are hereby directed to appear, and this is all before he gets the actual, >> you know, you are now inducted into service. This is all building up to that. >> A few days later, July 31, >> you are hereby directed to appear before this local board for physical examination on Tuesday, August 6th. >> Then here's one for that exact day, August 6th. You are hereby notified that as a result of your physical examination, you have been found by the local board qualified for military service. >> Yes. >> Which leaves you in class one subject to call. subject to call and then a couple days later is when he gets this letter. >> Yeah. >> Now, here's the one that's really interesting. >> Two days after he gets that physical, like you are qualified for military service, you're going to get called up probably. Um is this one. This one's very special to me. August 18 or sorry, August 8, 1918. This is to certify that Emory J. Settler order number 98 serial number 61 has been found to be exempt from combatant service and is eligible only to such military service as may be declared non-combatant by the president of the United States. >> Yes, >> somewhere in there and I wish we had letters or records but somewhere in there he makes that appeal like I I will not serve in a combat position and they granted him that. Now we don't know any details of like >> what did he do? Like what was that process like? Did he just hang around a random military camp for a few months? Cuz then I have his discharge papers. Um he was private in battery 13 second field artillery. Um he was discharged then the next spring. So he wasn't even in inducted in for that long but like some kind of non-combatant role. I don't know. He cooked potatoes in the kitchen. Like who knows? He never talked about it. Grandpa said but >> okay. So if you were called there was no alternate service. You had to serve. So if you were absolutist, you refuse to put even on a uniform. You refuse to serve the military machine in any way. But in this case, he's at least saying he's willing to cooperate with it. And so the absolutists, which were mostly the old menites >> versus the non-combatant people, which is General Conference, and a number of other people who took this, >> but these people were still considered military. >> Uh okay. Okay. Okay. Even though he's a he's claiming non-combatant status, but he's not able to get >> like in World War II, you had options to get alternative service. >> This guy, you never had that. >> That's right. >> So, I just I wish I wish I could have met this man and been like, "What? What did you do?" Like, what was that like? Cuz clearly he's like, "I can't fight." But then >> he he will serve the cause. And and many Aaron L was, let me show you a picture here. Aaron LS was the the uh person who represented the absolutist and u Henry Creable was a man who represented the non-combatant side the general conference people >> and so here's a picture of Clarence Stutzman who was a non-combatant so your grandpa probably had to dress like that great grandfather but great so so a non-com you'd still have to wear a uniform you would still have to Okay so uh >> and to be clear there were a lot of Menites who did choose that path. He said we won't fight. We'll be non-combatants. You got it. >> Um but then like you're saying there were those 2,000 or so that said we won't do that >> to the two guys Henry Creel who represented the non-combatant side and these this was the absolutist side. >> Okay. >> And so it turns out long story short a number of people who took this side wish that they would have taken this because these people started to cooperate and got themselves into extra hot water. If they'd have taken the absolutist stand to start with, >> then they have been clear. >> But Theodore Roosevelt showed up in one of these camps, I don't know which one it was anymore, and got these young these young absolutists, and berated them and just did his thing, >> expended his wrath against these cowards, these yellow bellies. >> And you know, what can he say? You know, and and I hear that and I just kind of I'm just kind of like, okay, like whatever. like you know oh you cowards because you won't fight and I look at those hutterey guys who who [clears throat] died for that I'm like now who's the coward >> that's right and that's what Aaron Lox would say >> yeah who is who is actually more courageous we and now in light of history I think most people think oh those guys were courageous even if you disagree with them and I'm sure there's people listening to this they're like okay whoa I majorly disagree with all this >> but even if you disagree you can't really look at those guys who are willing to stand for what they believed do literally died for it. You can't say that they were cowards. Like there's no way you can say they were cowards. Even again, even if you don't agree with their position. So see, and that's and this is where I wish I, you know, I wish we could have gotten these details from great grandpa. Um he he he was a, you know, a good, you know, upstanding member in his church, you know, a metanite his his whole life. >> Particular denomination that was >> grandpa would have known. I I don't know. Unfortunately, this was Ohio. Um, we could maybe dig into it more, but but you know, here's again here I have the discharge papers, you know, and I I thought about actually trying to pull his military records. Maybe we could get some some some clues, you know, I don't know if that'd be possible. Private in battery 13 second field artillery. I don't know what that means. I mean, it again, it was non-combatant, but I found this interesting when they discharge you, right? Here's his um comm I believe his commanding officer um is writing notes about him um and things like this. Um, was he non-commission officer? No. Uh, was he marksman, gun qualification, or rating? None. So, I guess he never touched a weapon. Did was he in any battles, engagement, skirmishes, expeditions? None. Um, and then it lists his vocation as just labor. >> So, again, who who knows? Wounds, no. Physical condition, good. Um, and then at the end it says character. And he writes in big bold letters more than all the other points. Excellent. >> There you go. >> And I think I I I like that if you look, it's in a much stronger handmanship of like excellent character. Yes. And then remarks, honorably discharged, terminating the emergency that caused the draft. And that was that. And again, he he never talked about it, but I think of like the thousands and thousands of Menanite young men who went through this process. And what would it be like getting these notification cards, getting this letter that says you are hereby now indict, you know, inducted into like that would be terrifying. And you're a young guy. I mean, he was 21 at the time. >> So, some of the stories, these young men who got these papers did enroll. There's a story in here of a young man who went against his parents' wishes, crawled out of bed at night and went off someplace and enrolled and went to war and got killed. >> Oh, wow. So there were some >> they did did change their belief or didn't go I guess with the the non-resistant position. >> No, they did not. Some of them took that. Some of them took the non-combatant and some of them took the absolutist uh non-resistant position. So >> but some of the the nonre the nonconformist, the absolutists are the ones that got the worst treatment. So one of the worst treatments I know of, they took a a young man >> and they just wanted his fellow soldiers wanted to abuse him. So they took him to a cesspool and took a roll of his feet and dunked him into the testful head first down in. >> And that's the kind of stuff that they would do to harass these boys. >> And another thing that the communities would do is that they would just dump yellow paint on a church or paint a circle around the church yellow. It's they're just saying one one of church says uh cowards cowards are here uh not allowed to come to church and paint it yellow. It's like a public statement. >> And again I just think of like who's the coward, >> right? You know and and the point being like really standing for what you believe if you actually really believe it, you know, do you really stand on that >> truly? And that was the test for thousands of these young men. And like you said, some of them kind of failed the test. They were like, "Yeah, sure. I'll go fight or whatever. I'll change my belief." You know, I mean, we have to be honest about that, right? It's not all perfect stories. Or even in the case of like my great-grandfather, I don't know. There's nebulousness there. He didn't take apparently the absolutist position. He didn't go to prison according to these discharge papers, for example. >> But, uh, we're just there are 75 stories in this. If I had had time, I'd have read all 75 stories in here. But this book, >> well, okay, it's just full of stories. And last night when we were prepping this interview, cuz like this book is out of print now, right? And it's excellent book. And then we looked it up and here it's free on archive.com and or.org and googlebooksh.com, which is great. That apparently is public domain now. So anybody can look this stuff up, see the pictures, read the stories yourself, print it off, whatever. It's free. And I'm like, that's excellent because >> a lot of these books are either out of print or very hard to find. And that's sad because you know it was 100 years ago and 115 years ago. So people kind of forget >> this coals of fire is under a different cover now. It's not >> so it's still in print. >> It's still in print as far as I know. If it is out of print it's still easy to find. Mhm. >> holes of fire. >> And and I think the the the piece there is like the stories do matter because every generation goes through their challenges that they face and we have to decide how are we going to respond to them, you know, and that was the I'm sure the defining moment for this generation. >> Yes. >> Uh was World War I. >> So uh we ought to talk about Leo Toltoy somewhere along this line. >> Yeah. Sure. Bring that in. Toltoy. So just for context I mean Louis Toltoy wrote like war in peace one of the great novels of all time and you know etc. very famous Russian. >> Yeah. He was um >> his his wife didn't even understand or hold his position, but he read the the words of Jesus and took them. He was he did not want he was a noble, a Russian noble, and he did not want people to work for him. >> And his wife did. >> Interesting. >> And so there's a long story on this, but in his development, he didn't want to he wanted to he thought if other people wrote read the words of Jesus, there must be other people like this in the world. And so he went on to a worldwide search to find for to find other people. And of course he found the Quakers >> and it may be the Quakers who pointed him to Daniel Muser who wrote the book non-resistance asserted the kingdom or the kingdom of Christ and the kingdom of this world separated. And when he sent and got this book he was just really blessed. And he wrote a book on his own called two kingdoms. uh I forget what his title was but anyway >> he was banned by the Russian government if I remember right because it was on this this >> two kingdom two kingdom thing but he quoted from Daniel Muser extensively and he ke held a correspondence an active correspondence with this Daniel Muser so Daniel Muser was giving an apologetic for the whole thing so the Menanites have often done devotional things you know how do we work this out among ourselves >> but nobody had written an apologetic and that's what Leo Toltoy appreciated about Daniel er's work. It was a a defense a rationale for this two kingdom understanding and uh Leo Toltoy just bought into it and we studied Neo Toltoy in in a literature class you know different places uh different stories we have in our literature book by Leo Toltoy >> and that's interesting that this caught his attention >> yes you know how about that >> so where we're where from here again I mean this is a huge topic it affected you know tens of thousands of Menanites I'm sure across America over that time. So again, we'll not tell at all. I mean, you know, go read the books, etc. But is there if you could distill it down into one thing you'd want to leave people with on this topic. What would you say? Okay, thank you for asking that question. This is a deep burden on my heart. The Schlighheim confession sets it out. This is the first time that I know of in more recent history. And this was 1527 by Michael Satler who actually took the words of Christ and articulated the two kingdoms. You know the the Catholics have their version of two kingdoms. The Lutheran have their two version of the two kingdoms but there's nobody who has articulated the way Christ talked about the two kingdoms except the Anabaptist and the Schlightheim is the best statement of that. Okay. If Christ is to be believed, there's a kingdom of Christ. There's a kingdom of God and there's a kingdom of this world and they are not compatible. You cannot serve Christ by serving in the other kingdom. You cannot do that. Jesus require requires strict loyalty. You either love Christ or you don't. You either obey Christ or you don't. You either take the words of Christ literally or you don't. And so the call to Christ is a call to leave the kingdom of the other the other kingdom. And yet it's a call to leave using force to make people behave. This is all voluntary. This is genius. And it's been in existence for 500 years. And now once again, Reagan, we are under test. Some of us are losing the two kingdom doctrine. And we're reverting back to the easier way, which is harder in the long run. And so the last thing I would have to say is that anybody who is Anabaptist owes themselves the Schlheim confession. I think it's article three or article 4 where we have the two kingdoms so well set out and the Swiss story since this is part of their lineage have done a better job of maintaining the two kingdoms than the Dutch story. Menos Simons would have understood the two kingdoms too. And he writes about it but in a less articulate way or a less direct way and the Russia, Dutch Russia, Prussia people have lost that early >> and so it still lingers with the Swiss people and we need to do all we can to help people understand. And this is a voluntary thing where Jesus says come take up the cross and follow me. If you don't follow Christ in life, you don't follow him. You're serving yourself. You're serving the world. And so the call to the end of baptism was always follow Christ in life, not folk, obey Christ, galassin height. And galassin height is the exact opposite of forcing anybody to do what's right. This is a call to love Christ. so supremely I delight to do thy will oh God show me what you want me to do Christ and I'll do it and that's what uh these boys got a hold of and they rejoiced in to follow Christ even though it was tough and this is just 100 years ago if they can do it 100 years ago certainly we can do it today >> that's a good one to to end it with if if they can stand for what they believed 100 years ago we can too >> so may I introduce one other book here we didn't talk about this is a first class fighting man this This is German Baptist story. >> See, there are a number of different groups here. It's not just Menanites who took this stand. There was all kinds of different groups including the German Baptists. This couple was married in in 1915 and then the war eventually separated them. And this is their diary of writing back and forth, husband and wife to each other. >> Yeah. >> And there's also a list in the back of this particular book of other sources to read. >> So, it's valuable for more than one >> reason. And by the way, these are not the only books. I mean, there's some other books that I have at home that still on the same story because this was a this was like a watershed in in Menani history. This this World War I story >> and it's what brought on the uh World War II alternate service program, which it makes me wonder which was better because so many Menanites lost out in the alternative service program. Was the persecution actually helpful? Only Christ understands the answer to that question. >> Nobody wants persecution. And I understand why the church went to great efforts to have the 1W program, voluntary service program. And I think young people do well if they give part of their lives in voluntary service. >> If you're not going to go into the military, you need to serve your country in some way. >> Why not do it in a helpful uh upbuilding constructive way? >> That's what CASP is about and that's what the voluntary service programs are about. And uh young people just don't make a mistake when they make that choice. >> Yeah. >> Well, thank you for peeling back some of the layers of this story and bringing it to us as like these are real people who had difficult decisions to make and maybe the piece to end it with is who was actually the real the the the the truly courageous person. It's easy to call someone a coward, but who's actually the coward? >> Something to think about. Thank you, Chester. Thank you for sharing with us today. >> In this episode, we talked about what it would be like to be called up for military service and what would we do in that situation. And I I interviewed Tanya Taylor about that topic and how she had to process through that for herself and ultimately go through the process of becoming a conscientious objector and leaving the United States Army. You can find that story linked in the description down below. Thank you so much for listening and we'll catch you in the next episode. >> [music]