What a Career in Public Policy Actually Looks Like | SPPA Stories

Well, it's so nice to have a chance to chat with you one-on-one, Carl. Um, so I'm Alisa and I am a student completing my masters in public policy and administration and uh previously I studied at uh the University of Toronto focusing on uh foreign policy and international relations. And I came to Carlton primarily because I wanted to have the opportunity to learn more about the Canadian policy landscape. And that is sort of what drove me uh to start this program. I'd love to hear a little bit about uh you and what was sort of the impetus for you starting the MPPA. >> Yeah. Um it it the fact that I'm here um has a lot to do with my undergrad. I worked for three years after high school before starting as an mature student. I don't know how mature I was. Uh but I started at WLU in my undergrad and did an honors political science and economics and really found that uh quite interesting. Um and uh it took me to the place where I then started educating myself about what different universities had by way of um complimentary uh masters programs. I hadn't intended on doing a master's program. I had intended on getting my BA, honors BA, as it turned out, get out, get a job and away I go. But then I thought, this is quite enjoyable. Um, and I was intrigued and there was a lot going on at the time in the public policy uh world. I think the opportunity to study and work in the the nation's capital was also important for me and I think that it uh has really been a nice opportunity to learn a lot about the complexities of the Canadian Federation and uh in my case although I studied uh last year here I had the opportunity to go back to Toronto over the summer and apply a lot of the knowledge that I learned over the course of last year to uh my role in intergovernmental affairs. So I will say that I think this program has has certainly prepared me well in terms of uh ensuring that I am able to adapt to a variety of different situations even in in terms of research papers or the the variety of different electives. I know for me a lot of my interest areas uh relate to health and social policy, but I found myself also learning a lot about environmental and energy policy. And so I think there's a lot to uh to gain from a program like this. And I'm grateful that I was able to apply a lot of the knowledge that I acquired here and have a I think a a general comprehensive understanding of how policy uh across various jurisdictions can manifest and how it can um change depending on different as we know uh geopolitical challenges or tensions in addition to uh domestic uh realities as Well, so >> I think it's nice to have uh just something that prepares you as a generalist and I can safely say that I I have felt like this program has given me a a good foundation to apply myself in in various policy roles. >> You know, it's interesting. I think that the school um the actual the school uh uh curriculum, syllabus, whatever you would call it, I think thematically um it has not it has certainly evolved. it's much more complete and a sort of much larger number of choices. But I thought that one of the constants was the fact that in first year you you were expected to take a um and master a set of u of separate um uh program uh policy areas, issue areas, um like economics, uh you know, political science. You're expected to be able to have a foundation and get that in in first year. you may have already had part of that in your undergrad and so therefore you might have had some some ability to maybe obiate one or two of those programs because you've already had like I had I kind of want to make some political science so they said yeah we're not going to make you do that over so it what it did was it it fed into two things requiring you to actually do the things that you might not have really wanted to do in your undergrad and you had to take those accounting for example um which I had not had um but then again in second year um you really did have and I think you still do a fair bit of flexibility in building quite a bit of your own program and um and and so that but by that time you had learned what your interests were maybe what you thought you were good at maybe you weren't but you thought you were and um you were able to um apply yourself uh in at at different programs within say political science or economics or another uh two or uh programs within the university. And I thought that that was um really really a benefit because we're all individuals and we all have uh sort of uh expectations and interests and confidence levels about certain things. So in the second year, I thought that was really a great uh thing to be able to do and it actually took me into a um a a program uh run out of the economics department that actually landed me my first interim job after uh I graduated in um in May of um of 75. So I think that that foundation of the program has not changed and I think that's really really saying a lot after 50 years that it's that uh well thought out and and and and effective. Yeah, I think that's a a really important point is uh seeing what has translated really well and what uh has I think I think it's as someone who didn't have a lot much of a policy background before I started this program. I think the having that uh foundational knowledge is really key as part of the curriculum >> and uh I'm I'm glad to hear that you felt that as well. >> Um as we were uh mentioning we had a great tour of the campus today and the campus has fundamentally changed u many many more students and many more buildings and some of the locations I didn't recognize some I did. Uh but it speaks to the subject of um the world is changing and we're participating in a changing world. Um we are not getting education for this for the purpose of sitting home and doing nothing. We want to be out there. We want to affect uh the world we live in and and we want to see change the right kind of change made. How would you describe you know what you would like to see as a function of your own engagement in the big world? >> Thank you for that question. I think as someone who has had the opportunity to work in the international development sector before I started at uh the SPA, I think I realized that there's so much that you can contribute both, you know, globally and also within your own local community. So for me, I think I want to continue to have experiences where I am able to contribute to uh individuals within my local community, whether that be at the municipal level, provincial level, or at the federal level. I think there's quite a bit of fulfillment in uh having the opportunity to affect change in minute ways and also in perhaps more broader, you know, abstract ways, let's say. >> And so for me, I think I am always open to new opportunities to contribute. And I think it's it's really hard for me to pinpoint in one specific area that I I would like to contribute. But I think I know that when I had the opportunity to work uh in intergovernmental affairs that really inspired me and made me reflect on the complexities of the Canadian Federation and how important it is to engage with stakeholders and engage with local partners uh and indigenous communities and how pivotal all these different voices are in affecting change and in ensuring that we are moving forward and and making improvements and uh I think it's for me it's just it's a goal of mine to continue to learn from others. Again, I I don't think there's one particular uh area that I'm drawn towards, >> but I do think I I have found a great fulfillment in focusing on projects or programs >> or policy areas where I'm able to see how um different uh I guess voices can be uh heard and then also how we can make improvements through feedback from communities and ensure that changes that are made are actually benefiting >> those that are most heavily impacted. >> Well, I think that I think the skill sets that you're going to pick up through the program um will uh give you a foundation for um uh recognizing when you're finished your degree and you're out in the quote unquote real world. um where those opportunities to make a change um and and make people's lives better uh can come from and I'll give you an example um when I finished uh of course you know a lot of polyai and a lot of study in the area and a lot of prov and all kinds of things uh one of the things I did was I I recognized that you know you have to you need to start at the local level to really help people at the in their immediate lives there's lots of ways of doing that um I mean I ended up becoming president of both my federal and provincial uh parties riding association as we then called it EDAS now uh in Ottawa West. Um okay fine I got involved in that because I thought no no no we need to organize this better. We need to be more effective. We need to be more a more able to represent people here and bring our policy initiatives to the party and uh and impact uh local elections. So that because we thought we had some good ideas. Uh the other thing I did was I became president of my local minor hockey association, right? My sons played within it. A whole bunch of other kids in the neighborhood did it and I knew all their families and I thought, well, this is an this is a way of bringing some administrative, policy, management, financial integrity to a program at a local and community level. all of those things which I had been exposed to in the context of this program and didn't realize at the time that no no I can I can do that and I can make an impact there. Um so those are very small examples but they they demonstrate how you can benefit uh others uh take on challenges make a difference change uh predicated on what you've uh you been able to do. Now 2 years at a program here also forces you to get engaged. Uh you got to you got to deal with challenges and you got to deal with administrative challenges of your own uh of the schools. Um and also working with other people. Um I one of the great I would tell students coming in you're going to learn from your profs you're going to learn from the syllabus. You're going to learn from you know being in lecture halls. You're going to learn from doing research paper. Here's where you're really going to learn something of value with the people you're going to school with. Really spend time getting to know them, getting their opinions, thoughts, and and understand their experiences, asking them, "Hey, how would you address this? How would you address that?" uh because as for our program 50 years ago, we had people from lots of different countries and the perceptions about issues were a little different, solutions were a little different, but it opened your mind to the fact that there might be other ways of thinking about things. So yeah, you can make change, you can impact change at a local, maybe a national level, I don't know. Uh but you have to have the skill sets in order to be able to do that. It's it's definitely something that I have incorporated in my own worldview is keeping in mind how one's own biases can sometimes uh cloud your perception of something and how it's important to have those dialogues and see other people's perspectives >> even when you yourself may think that the answer is very obvious or that but it's important to to recognize the nuance and I think see where you know different um where different voices may be underrepresented let's say. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's it's it's fascinating. You can't get through this program without learning how to uh work with other people, learn from other people, collaborate um either in joint projects or even in a you know in a in a in a panel discussion. You have to it really helps you to learn uh to engage um listen um but also come to some conclusions about okay what needs to be done. There's an awful lot of uh academic uh energy wasted on just shuffling around through a particular issue and not coming any conclusions about okay what are we going to do? Well, you get through this place you've done some things. Okay, you've been forced to do some things. Um, and then you carry that with you into uh into working life wherever it is. But that's that's a big that's a big benefit, big bonus. >> I'd love to hear about how the SPAA community made an impact on you during your time at Carlton and also following the completion of your degree. I know today you had an opportunity to go on a tour with some of your um peers and I'd love to hear >> about, you know, when you look back, what has the SPA community meant to you? >> Well, when we when I first started here in 73, um we were a fairly small class. The program had changed in ' 72. It was a very small incoming full-time class. The 73 group that I was with um were probably only full-time, probably only 15 or 16 of us. We were at Patterson Hall. We were in the same building on the same floor and we were very in close proximity to each other. So, we got to know each other. That was one of the benefits of being in close proximity. You had to learn how to get along with people. You had to learn how to help people. They could help you. Um, as a function of that, we also shared a lot of common uh interests uh and socialized a lot together. Uh we had a broom ball team and for example, many of us used to play Saturday afternoon uh at an old outdoor hockey rink uh in the fall, no ice. Uh we would play ball hockey and then we would rejoin to a hotel that still actually exists on the market called the Lafayette. Well, it's it's those inclass in hall and social activities which allow you to really uh learn about people and understand and appreciate their perspective and their value. Part of the value is supporting each other because this can be tough from time to time and somebody's going to have a difficult time and you can perhaps help them. they might they might have an expertise where gee I mean stats I was terrible in stats but I had to get the course or else I wouldn't pass and there were a couple of guys who really really uh helped um so but that was only a function of us getting to really know and be comfortable with each other and confident in each other and respectful. So I I think in the working world you're going to be out there if you have an opportunity to develop the same kind of relationships that's great. So I I I really think that is um one of the was one of the things that we all took away and the evidence of that is today. We've got I think there's about seven or eight of us today that graduated 50 years ago and then I will be hosting a backyard barbecue tomorrow for another four or five that couldn't be here on this location. And but we all see each other and it's like the years just drop away. Um, but it but that's that's only a function of the time we put in together academically and socially. >> That's lovely to hear. I think that's something that's also really important to me is the community here. I compared to my undergrad, I really feel like the SPA community has been incredibly supportive and I as someone who is a member of the SPA society, I think that has played a huge role in ensuring that I am not only um having the opportunity to learn and grow academically but also have the opportunity to as you noted learn from other people, learn from my peers and also foster great friendships and I'm really glad to hear that >> you felt like no time had passed when you all met up again. >> I'm sure with my cohort I we will have the same experience and I think that's what's so valuable about this type this program in particular. I think I noted um when I first arrived how uh incredibly welcoming everyone was and how important this uh work was for everyone. And so we were all I think not only united in our interest in uh policy and the importance of of uh acquiring more knowledge related to policy development. But I think we also have learned a lot uh about what we value aside from that and how that all connects. And I think it's really really nice that people can come from a variety of different regions across the country and still be able to connect in a variety of different ways and also be really I think um genuine and and committed to supporting one another like you said the importance of having say a study group or having assistance when you are having challenges with coursework. I noticed the same thing with with our cohort. the importance of being there for each other is is really key. >> We're all in the same boat. I mean, we all come in here from different places with different backgrounds and experiences. There's some commonalities, but by and large, we bring uh we bring different geographic uh you know, sort of references and maybe different program references. Um maybe we're single, maybe we're married, maybe one of the guys had kids. Uh you know, so you you kind of sort of, well, gee, I'm going to have to figure that out. You know, what's that all about? And by the time you get out of here and you made those relationships uh and friendships and you've learned a lot about um people approach life differently and that's not bad. That's good because that broadens your own horizons, right? There's not just one way of doing things. So I I think that that's good. Um I would say I would also give you a a a thought. Um it this is a very very stressful time uh in a public policy um international geopolitical even in a Canadian you know fedrov environment. Um that's the way it was and that's the way it's going to be. And uh in 73 when we came here uh things seemed kind of interesting. Uh the Vietnam War was still on. Uh Gaza, you know, the Sudan, uh Ukraine, uh a lot of lot of bumptiousness about that. Uh we got here in 73 in September. In October was the Kipper war. Okay. And that resulted in the Arab oil embargo as it was called. Gasoline prices went through the roof. There were long lineups of cars unable to get gas in the states and here. And it set off what became known as stagflation. High inflation, no economic activity, stagflation. And we thought this was the we'd never get out of this. It was the end of the world. Uh but over time there were public policies that addressed that and things changed and people got to work and um you know we went through a couple of elections. There was an election in 1972. The Liberals won by one seat. How many seats did they win by this time? One seat. Okay. So, things happen and and there is change all the time. And I think that that the program, the education you're getting here will stand you in goodstead. Uh but remember that it's all happened before. It's all going to happen again, you know, but be ready. >> Absolutely. I think that's an important uh lesson for us I think especially as young policy students and analysts is that even when the challenges seem insurmountable and seem like they are impossible to correct or you know it it's a there's a lot of precedent and there's a it often times is not a quick fix. So we are certainly seeing that now as well when new challenges present themselves you have to adapt >> and uh I mean it's it's always great to have so many wonderful you know for example faculty members and and academics who are wrestling with those questions at all times both at Carlton and and elsewhere. So >> it's certainly uh always, you know, reassuring when you hear from others that have been through a lot of stressful geopolitical challenges as well and how do you navigate them? So my final question for you is if you could go back and give yourself one piece of advice as an incoming SPA student, what do you think it would be and why? Um I suppose as an incoming student and what I learned expost facto after two years would be um follow your follow your interests. Make sure you're following your interests and that you're applying yourself within the program to subject matter that you're really truly interested in. Don't force yourself, you know, round peg, square hole type thing. The other thing is I suppose after 2 years I learned that um that the people around me, my fellow students uh were becoming more and more important uh both professionally and socially. Uh so those are the two things that I I learned um you know along with the benefit of being in Ottawa. I mean I was able to watch stuff happening in real time in the area that I was interested in. So that was I would say those things they sound a bit amorphous um you know but that was that was reality for me.