“We’re At The Beginning Of A Revolution” - Jimmy Carr

How many shows did you do last year? >> Uh maybe oh god I don't know 250 300 something like that. It's the it's the two shows a night thing that that ramps up the numbers and that's been the big kind of innovation in my touring of like going if you Yeah. There's no line um I think it was BB King said it. I do the shows for free. They pay me to travel. And I kind of feel like that. I feel like getting there is the hassle. Doing the show is a joy. And that so I do a show at 7:00 and then a show at 9:30 in most places. So it's that thing of like it's one for me, one for HMRC, [laughter] right? One goes to the tax man, the other one's just all online. Yeah, pretty much these days. Yeah. >> Yeah, it' definitely be after that much scrutiny. What's your relationship with worry like? Do you get overwhelmed? That's a pretty intense schedule. >> Oh, no, not I mean not at I think that thing about if anything that um decreases the stress level doing that many shows makes you less nervous because it's it's kind of like being an airline pilot. It's about sort of hours in the sky. So if you spend that much time on stage and then you know I I I film everything now. So it's often you're you're kind of in the shows you've got you never get bored of it because you know a good third of it is just that night just that show >> and it changes all the time. It's interesting. I was like I I I sort of used to think about jealousy and envy a lot. Like the idea that they're different. And one is I don't want that person to have that thing. And it's a really dark energy, right? And then there's envy, which is telling you what you want. You see someone's got something, you go, "Oh, wow. I want that." And I remember looking at like um uh Matt Refe and Andrew Schultz and their video content online and they were kind of blowing up and going, "I should I should do that. I should take someone on the road and film it and just, you know, copy that methodology. And I did it and I've absolutely loved it. It's really kind of changed the way that I that I gig. Why is it the case that you're not I mean, I've been backstage with you before you go out and within minutes before you're about to go on stage, you snacking on an apple, not really thinking about and then going out and performing in front of 7,000 people. Is then just reps now under the belt that nerves kind of don't take? >> I think it's also it's quite self- selecting being a comedian at sort of at that level where people are you know if I play a club then people have just gone out to see comedy but I'm I'm not in the entertainment business. I'm not in the comedy business. I'm in the Jimmy Car business. >> And people have come out to see my show. So they kind of know what they're going to get. If anyone's offended at this point it's like they bought tickets for a horror movie and they're complaining they're scared. It's just it's like, okay, dum dum. >> It's like [clears throat] it doesn't it doesn't count. It's like so it's also that thing of like the the moments you can have with a crowd now are because they've seen it online because they know what what you do. >> They're they're expecting it. You okay? Oh, wow. I got coffee. Can't believe my luck. Thank you. >> The service is fantastic. There's this line that um made me think about the level of intensity perhaps that you go through with your touring. Your life does not need to be easier. It needs to be simpler. Your system is designed to handle stress and challenge, but not complication. You probably handle hard things pretty well, but feel overwhelmed when they become messy. Do not attribute to difficulty that which can be explained by complexity. It seems like if what you're doing is touring and focusing on touring and doing the live shows and getting to the next show and being in a good mood and performing well, it's kind of one thing all the way as opposed to trying to do that while number two and number three and number four and number five. >> Well, I think it's also that thing of like it's not repetition. It's like how many gigs last year you go you know 250 or 300 and that sounds in a way kind of boring like it would be the same thing again and again and actually it's not it's never repetition it's iteration so you're changing it subtly every time you're changing the jokes you're trying new jokes in at every show every single show at the end of the show you're trying new things so it's con it's quite it's very um stimulating intellectually to to be writing >> why do you think people get stuck in overthinking >> uh well let's let's have a think about it that will It's like trying to sniff our way out of a cocaine problem. >> It's just like >> correct. >> How how like the fact that you're the person asking that the the rumination king. Um I don't know. I think it's like it's it's anxiety I suppose is what it is. Overthinking in in in a larger form. And my sort of view on it is anxiety is thought without control. Your thoughts are just wild. And a flow state is control without thought. And so on stage you are in a flow state. You you know what you're doing. You know what the jokes are. They're just like you don't even have to think about it. It's the next thing. And then people are talking to you and you're just being sort of yourself. You're just being loose. So it's it becomes like it's a flow state. It's not you're not being anxious about anything. So finding something where you can do that is that's the secret source. Finding something that you enjoy doing that you can be in that kind of flow state. >> Thought without control is an interesting insight. I think helplessness. A lot of people have this sensation that I can't enact my will on the world. I can't ensure that this thing is going to uh behave in the way that I want to. >> But if I think about it enough, it's kind of the same as preparing for it. I I I wonder are we um Mark Fischer wrote about this beautifully about the privatization of anxiety and stress and the idea that we're blaming the individual for mental health problems. When if you look at the numbers now, if you look at the stats of how many people are suffering with depression and anxiety, I think you have to uh conclude that it's a societal problem. We're not arranging our society in a way that is uh conducive to good mental health. People are incredibly stressed >> uh in the world and it's a collective action problem. It's not something that you can solve on your own. >> If you're a depressed young man, you cannot solve the problem on your own. You have a dispersed identity. If you want to be happy, go and make some other people happy. >> It's a vicious cycle, though, right? Because the thing that you need is to rely on other people. But given that you're around fewer people than ever before, you don't have the same level of cohesion as you would have done a few thousand years ago. >> Look at look at what we've done. Everything's now for the individual, right? So, what used to be a game of five aside, you know, you know, on a on a Wednesday night is now a personal best at the gym. >> Well, that's isolating. And the idea that you're tracking your uh steps every day rather than going for a walk with a friend, it's like it's it's very isolating. So I had to think of like, you know, think about the the manosphere. Um you know, there's there's a lot of kind of talk about it the last 6 months after Louis Thu's brilliant documentary. And you you kind of look at it and you go, well, it's it's the wrong prescription for the right problem. There is definitely a problem going on. So I mean my my take on it is I'm very I'm pro gang, pro- drinking, pro gambling. Mhm. >> Let me let me let me give you the argument, right? So pro gang, where should men be? Together. Men are really good at checking other men. Gangs gangs have got a bad reputation because some of them do shoot people and deal drugs. Okay, but that's a very small percentage. Mostly it's like guys with other guys, you know, hanging out and they kind of check themselves and it can be an incredibly positive force. >> And I'm very pro uh drinking. I mean, Scott Galloway has the best line on it. the risk to your liver is as nothing compared to the risk of social isolation. So, I think we should like lower the drink. I I've set up these like youth clubs around the world. Uh they they've got like jukeboxes and pool tables and they play sports on a big TV. They're really fun. Uh they're called pubs and they're everywhere, right? And what we should do is just lean into that and go, the youth clubs are already there. They're called pubs. We should lower the drinking age to 16 because if you think 16y olds aren't drinking, well, you're living in a [ __ ] fantasy world anyway. >> Certainly in the UK. I don't know about how much do people drink in the US at 16? >> Quite a bit. A lot. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. People drink at 16. Here's what you do, though. You legalize drinking at 16. Not for individuals. So, you got to bring three mates with you. >> So, you can get hammered in a group and not on your own. >> Yeah. You get h Well, you're not going to get hammered. There's four of you. You're going to check yourself. You're going to make sure you don't get kicked out of the pub. Sometimes I' I've friends on in a group of a group of people. It gets worse sometimes. >> Yeah. But you but maybe but I'm very happy to I'd rather they were together doing that in a space with other people and people of all ages and there's other adults in the room. >> I'd rather that than they were drinking in a park. >> I'd much rather gambling is like there's a there's a huge problem with gambling at the moment where people are gambling um you know online and sports betting. It's like it's a because you're trying to game the system because you can't see a way out, right? You got to deal the younger generation in. I think gambling should be it's the bigger things. It's taking a gamble on yourself, taking a gamble on a career. That's the the big gamble, the big risk, saying that you want to do something and kind of coming out as someone that's, you know, ambitious. >> I don't know. I think the the younger generation sort of need to be dealt in in a way that they're not at the moment. You know, what what hope is there to to buy a house and start a family? >> It's not that they don't want to, it's like they're not given the conditions to do that. I don't think there should be any tax on the under 30s. Have you seen Rory Sutherland's one which is he thinks I think your first £250 grand should be taxfree which is an equivalent >> That's a great idea. >> Yeah. So you just get that first £250,000 and no tax on that and then the tax kicks in afterward. >> It's a great idea. It's a great idea. I mean under 30 is just like that thing of like that life stage of like going just trying to get sort of to the table trying >> the same reason that Bill Perkins suggests giving your kids their inheritance when they're 30 because if >> that book Die with zero is so brilliant it's it's kind of about so much more than that as well that kind of what you should be doing at what stage of life. >> Correct. So the idea that there's young people, you know, feeling anxious. Yeah, great. Well, we've arranged our society incorrectly then >> if everyone, it's almost like we've inverted Maslov's hierarchy of need, you know, that kind of pyramid thing where you've go, okay, so you need food and shelter and security on on >> everyone's trying to self-actualize without any friends or a house. >> Yeah. So, so 200 years ago, people were worried about starving but proud of their name. And now people are, you know, calorifically they're fine and they're anxious. It's it's it's not a great situation. Yeah. >> It's like it's it's kind of you get into kind of I suppose slightly Buddhist almost immediately because it's like I think happiness is a time machine. I think depression is is thinking about the past and anxiety is a worry about a future self. >> In the moment you tend to be fine but it's you know people people don't have a sense of you know being able to do that being able to kind of sit in the moment. Well, it's interesting with the flow state thing because at least in my experience, when you're in the deepest flow state possible, you actually don't have much memory of what happened. When you turn around and think about what you were doing at that time, I guess it might be the same. At least when I've done my show, we did >> shows within days of each other in Sydney at Darling Harour a few months ago. And when you drop into the show, >> you actually someone said, "How did how did that section go?" or "How did how did the I have no idea what happened." >> Yeah. You were in the moment. Yeah. because you have moved yourself out of the way. And it's I don't know. It's it's interesting that what we say that we want is more memories, right? We want to have time expand and for us to be able to look back and yet the most enjoyable way to spend the present moment is in a way that we won't be able to remember in future. It's this sort of odd paradox. Yeah, it's an interesting Yeah, it's cute. But I mean, the worst thing is to go, "Oh, well, I can definitely remember what happened, but I remember that I wasn't there. M >> I remember that I was worrying about this thing that was going to come up next or that I was fearful about this or I was distracted. I wasn't really in the moment. That seems like >> the worst way to spend the >> Isn't that the that's kind of the the Echartlo story, isn't it? You know that story about him like he was horribly depressed in his 20s. I mean really, you know, kind of thinking about ending it all and he was on a uh >> park bench >> park bench and then he and he thought to himself, I can't live with myself. And in saying that, he went, "Well, who's I and who's myself? Wait a second." And just realized you can kind of separate those two things and get kind of beyond that and and kind of there's a equinimity in in being able to kind of separate yourself from your thoughts sometimes. >> I really do think that the worry is about control, right? It's strange because no amount of anxiety is going to make any difference to what's going to happen. >> But control is what control is an illusion right the way down. I mean, I've said this before. I think it's I blame the Plato and the um Sarahustrans for coming up with the idea of heaven and perfection. There is no heaven and perfection. It's all you know I'm I'm with nature on this. It's it's embrace the chaos that like you can't have control over what happens only how you react to it. So it becomes very stoic very quickly because you just go well I I just I'm in charge of how I react to this stuff. I definitely think a lot of people blame themselves and to some degree I understand why because you want to feel like you have agency over what's going on. You want to be the person that's in control. You don't want to have to rely on anybody else. But a good question to ask yourself is, am I depressed or is my life depressing? Right? Like, am I anxious or is my life anxiety? >> Is it is it depression or sadness? You know, if it's circumstantial, then I think it's sadness. >> I think it's much more acceptable to say I'm depressed than to say I'm sad. >> But if it's if it's circumstantial and you could do something about it, then then great. I've been thinking about a thing recently. Okay. I don't believe in generations. And you won't find someone who's a bigger Neil How fan than me. You know, the guy that coin co coined the phrase millennial, but I don't really believe in generations. I think like putting a whole cohort of people into one box, it makes about as much sense to me as horoscopes. So you go the idea there are people that are um entitled and there's people that are ambitious in every cohort. You I mean Donald Trump and Joe Biden are in the same generation. They're very different [ __ ] right? So you go, well actually there's entitled people that are young and there's there's people that are very ambitious. And the difference would be where you are and where you want to get to. If you want to do something about it, you're ambitious. And if you want someone else to do something about it, if it's their responsibility, then that's entitlement. >> It's a pretty good working definition. There's lots of, you know, you meet young people that are just that are, you know, that are great and they get lumped in with this, oh, millennials be like this nonsense. >> But there has to be some sort of delineation. And I do think that there are changes that occur across time, right? Across group from a long time ago to now that are changes. And if you just put these random bars in between them to break them up, does that not make sense? >> I don't think I I don't think it's helping. I don't think it helps. Um, and I I think it's uh well, I mean, listen, you know, there's me sort of saying I contradict myself and say I do think we need to do something for the younger generation. I think we need to sort of change the way because effectively what have we done? We've raised the school leaving age in the UK to 21 >> because it's mandatory to get a degree now. >> Yeah. Every everyone, you know, goes to university and you know university is a a university degree is a luxury item. It's a Louis Vuitton handbag, right? It's it's that's what it is. And you go and if everyone's got one, the value of that obviously decreases. So you get into Peter Turin talks about the end of civilizations. He's a brilliant you know Peter Turchin, right? He's probably been on the show. Um, so he talks about there's two thing two reasons why a society collapses. And one is the inequality of wealth, which we've almost supercharged now with social media cuz everyone can see everything all the time. And then he talks about the overproduction of elites. So when you overproduce elites um and and they don't get what they're promised. So if you go out and you work hard at school and you get a degree from a good university and then you go, "Well, where's where's my fourbedroom house? Where's my wife and family? What's what it hasn't delivered?" Then that elite that feels let down by the system and what it tacitly promised them becomes the counter elite. >> And that counter elite fights against the system and tries to bring it down. So I think that's why we're kind of in the in the the beginnings of a revolution at the moment. I think that's one of the reasons why America has more prevalent victimhood culture than somewhere like the UK does. And that's because when you're growing up in the UK, you're not really told that you can be whatever you want to be. That kind of blue sky thinking helicopter vision I don't think is given to British people in the same way. If you diverge from the path that tall poppy syndrome kicks in and you tend to be chopped down pretty quickly. Whereas in the US for all that it's a horrible misogynistic judgmental xenophobic country trying to keep everybody down. The American dream still kind of is accepted. It's part of the fabric I think that most people believe. And that means that if you did everything right and then grow up and become an adult and the world doesn't deliver to you that which you were promised as a kid, quite rightly you feel indignant like, hey, >> well, where's my stuff? I think it's the >> the UK I don't think has >> you want there to be some social mobility. You want to be able you want essentially you want your kids to do better than you did >> in life. You that's what you kind of want. But it really I suppose it's >> and the kids also want to do better than you did as well. >> Yeah. Sure. I think I think that thing about going, you know, from a political point of view, I'm less concerned with equality. You know, Peter Tur is very worried about there being equality. I'm more concerned with abundance. You know, what does the future hold? Is it going to be um uh Star Wars or Star Trek in 50 years time? And I'd love to believe it could be Star Trek. I'd love to believe that there is abundance. Although, even if there is, we'll get used to it. Because the world that we live in now, if you showed your great great-grandfather your life now, he would think you'd be made emperor. >> Habituation is a hell of a drug. >> Yeah. You you just you get used to this stuff, right? So, but you know, rich and poor is always it's going to be relative and whatever we you know, but but the idea that everyone's needs are taken care of cuz really people think they want more money, but really money is is the is is the thing that gets you what we really want, which is, you know, good healthare and good education and uh the right amount of calories and, you know, all >> until you start to fold status in, right? Because one of the big reasons that you want money is to have more money than the guy that lives next door. >> Yeah. Well, I think that thing about taking care of everyone's um physical needs in society is is a collective action problem. Making sure that there's a safety net there that isn't a hammock. But but you can't take care of people's metaphysical needs. >> Mhm. And so the difference would be between, you know, a Casio watch that tells the time perfectly reasonably and a blingy Rolex that shows that, hey, you made a baby or whatever that that whatever the the the extra value you get from what it means to you rather than what I mean, you know, you get into that kind of reerard where we're full of kind of mimemetic desires. We don't know what to want. And that thing of like not having to impress other people, that's the superpower. >> Yes. >> That's the thing that really makes a difference to the quality of your life. If you if you know what you want, you don't have to impress other people. Like that that really does simplify life. >> That would be a wonderful gift. I don't know how the hell you would give it to people, but the gift of being able to say you don't have to impress anybody else would liberate so many people from perverse desires, from being distracted by things that they don't actually want to do, that they're only doing to perform. It's the hidden versus observable metrics thing that me and George talk about all the time. >> Well, it's interesting. Getting getting stuff is fun. Having stuff isn't fun. Getting stuff is fun. >> Mhm. Um, and that's it's it's a weird kind of lesson. I mean, you talk about that, the 2D 3D lessons, correct? It's a real 3D lesson. You have to experience that. Correct. You kind of go >> Perkins was my first big 2D 3D lesson thing. I read the book and then I brought him on the show. That's like a 2D and then maybe a 2.5D lesson, getting to sit down with him and and talk about these ideas about how to structure your life and to focus on having fun and spending money in smart ways that brings you together with other people. >> And then we finished the episode and he said, "What are you going to do now?" And I was like, I'm probably going to go home and like write the show notes for this episode and upload the get the file across to my editor and stuff. And he says, "Do you want to come wake surfing?" Like, okay, of course I do. Went went downstairs. He had a driver outside waiting for us. We got on the boat with the boat captain who had swim shorts and and a towel and then we did that and then we went back to his house on the lake, the most expensive house ever sold in Austin. And then we did this thing and then his driver on the way to take him back on his jet dropped me off at home. I was like, "Oh, that's a that's a 3D lesson." Like, I could have read the book 50 times and not had the same tangible visceral experience. Yeah. Than that. What should be what you Yeah. What you should be doing right now is is it's hard to get your head around that though. I think it's uh it's not easy for young people. >> I think it's it feels like >> it feels like um limitations are very freeing. >> Correct. Correct. Once you decide what you want to do and what you're going to work out and who you're going to be with, life gets very simple cuz you you stop thinking about how to live and you start thinking about living. >> Well, yeah. I I guess an analogy would be if you were in a boat in the middle of the ocean, if you just have to row real hard and you know the direction you're going in, that's >> Yeah, probably. That's a Marcuselius line, isn't it? The uh if uh if you don't know where you're going, no wind is favorable. >> Uh yeah. Yeah. not not too dissimilar, but I suppose if you're also having to direct yourself, you're lost in the rumination of ah I I I took five miles in that direction, but maybe I should if I take a slight right here. And so yeah, I mean David Epste's new book is all about this. It's all about the power of constraints and how they breed creativity. And yeah, people think that they want as much optionality in life as they can get. >> Homozi is very good on this. I I met Homoszi the other day for the first time, but but we kind of felt it felt like getting together with an old friend. I can't imagine two people that are stoally more different than you and Alex. >> Yeah, it was we we looked slightly slightly odd at dinner. Um yeah, it was uh it's it was really interesting. It was uh it was really interesting cuz his thing is like his new big idea was like there's too much optionality and if you never cash in those options, what's the point? I like getting a a you know an MBA, you know, mast's and then a PhD in business. It's like no, no, just start a business. Doesn't matter if it goes bust, start another one. >> The map is not the territory. get out there and do the thing. >> Yeah. There's [snorts] a I think that's another challenge that young people have. Everybody has. [ __ ] saying young people, it's anybody that is existing in this current world, which is that your ability to say things as opposed to do things has never been more tuned up. Like like you are what you do, not what you'll say you do. >> And unfortunately, talking about the thing and doing the thing v for the same resources, right? You need to allocate yours appropriately. Yeah. Don't tell me about your priorities. Show me last week's diary. >> Yeah. That's what you actually did. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think if >> the prospect of being able to kind of talk your way or proclaim your way publicly and privately, right, to yourself, I'm going to put this plan together. I've got this. This is one of the issues of obsessing over productivity too much that productivity ends up becoming the goal, not the means in order to be able to get a goal. the sort of masturbation of productivity keeps on happening >> and they're off. >> Yeah. Away they go. Most people don't realize how much being dehydrated impacts their performance. Which is why for the last 5 years I've started pretty much every morning with Element. Element is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. This orange salt in a cold glass of water is like a sweet salty orangey nectar. And I really tell the difference when I take it versus when I don't. It plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue. 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You can't quite remember it, but there's this latent distrust in you doing what you said you were going to do and no one else knows about it. >> It's just you. It's your relationship with you. I said that I was going to do this thing and I didn't show up and I didn't show up and I didn't show up. After a while, you begin to resent the part of yourself that makes plans because you don't think that it's going to come into fruition. >> Yeah. Well, I suppose it's that thing of like, you know, having a a six-pack doesn't give you confidence. Being the guy that shows up at the gym every day gives you confidence. Like the the you you take care of yourself. I think it's that. Yeah. It's a it's a very interesting sort of I think that it's about compound interest really cuz compound interest on money is miraculous. when you when you look at you know uh Buffett and his wealth most of it was built through time is the factor that people don't take into consideration there a very smart investor but really time was the thing >> 90% of his wealth was accumulated after the age of 60 >> is exactly right yeah it's it's but compound interest on your skills is insane if you put the reps in if you do the work it's insane what you build over time but it's it's it gets back to that thing for me about your your goals will be beaten by your systems every time. Everyone's got great goals. Everyone's got big ambitions, but like what are you going to do tomorrow? What's the small thing that you can break off and it's manageable and you can do it today? Why I love kind of what I do? You know, mainly it's jokes and writing jokes is is comparatively easy because you can just sit down and write one >> and then you test it. There's no point discussing it. There's no point having a a meeting where you go through it with some some friends. Just go out, find an audience, tell them. They'll tell you whether it's funny or not. Great feedback loop. I suppose the problem with most other projects is that you can't iterate a product and get audience feedback quite so quickly. You can't work out whether or not you want to release a t-shirt design in one small chunk. Go through all of the process of getting the t-shirt design, get it printed, see how many people want to buy a one person. Well, let's update it again. The iterative nature of that is is pretty cool. >> Yeah, it's it's it's harder. It's hard. I mean, I've, you know, I'm very lucky, I think, to be in a business where it's it's that thing of like if if the audience like it, they tell you straight away. >> Mhm. And they can't not tell you either. Even people can dislike you, but if you tell a joke that's sufficiently funny, I think that the response just sort of kicks. >> Well, even if it's like my favorite noise in comedy is still that kind of cognitive dissonance laugh where there's a laugh followed by a deep where they get >> they're shocked at themselves for having just >> No, I guess you laugh at it because you you the laughter that kind of betrays you. I think you'll laugh. It's kind of a deeper level of you. >> I I suppose actually I might be a little bit wrong there. If you really really don't like somebody and you decide to sit in the third row with your arms crossed, you go, "Go on then, funny man. Make me laugh." I think you can will yourself or convince yourself into not liking somebody that's doing well at their craft in comedy. I don't think that the same thing is quite so true in music. I think that an absolute banger pierces through your defenses even more so than comedy. I think something that would be less than that would be a conversation, right? Conversation between two people on stage or some sort of like keynote speech or whatever. It wasn't even that interesting. I didn't find it engaging. Comedy is deeper and then music is deeper still. >> It's like the art the art and the artist. And can you can you separate them? Can can someone that's done a terrible thing and you know they've done a terrible thing can they still be funny? Can they still be musically gifted? >> I think you probably can tease it out. I think it's probably fine. >> Peter Cronhn's got a question. Who could you be in the absence of your concerns? It made me think about >> that's that's that's really good, isn't it? Like that's that's uh >> who could you be in the absence of your concern? >> There's a there's a great line I often think of which is the um uh you can do anything you want. You only have to face the consequences. M >> it's like it's really powerful because it's that thing of like going you've got absolute freedom but you have to wear it like there's freedom of speech but not freedom of consequence >> and I think about St. Lawrence a lot. You know the story of St. Lawrence? No. >> He's the patron saint of comedy and St. Lawrence was um he was burnt by I think it's like it's a really good name for an emperor. Some like it's something like Voldemort like this emperor burnt him alive over a fire and as he was being burnt alive St. Lawrence went, "Turn me over. This side's done." And it makes me think of bravery, right? That's that's a very brave thing to say in a pretty awful moment, but the only reason we remember him is cuz he said that. You go, there's there's a certain amount of like bravery. Like, yeah, no, say the thing. Say the thing. Good luck. >> Mhm. >> Some people won't like it. It be all right. >> Who could you be in the absence of your concerns? But me and George keep on talking about the fact that so many people are held back by a lack of confidence rather than a lack of competence. Like their self-belief is the biggest rate limiter on what it is that they can achieve. >> Yeah. But I mean that self-confidence comes from Mosy's line is, you know, self-confidence comes from giving the world irrefutable proof you are who you say you are. So it's that thing of like find something small that you can do what you can with what you've got where you are >> you know it's you could wish away the first two I wish I had different things I was somewhere else just you know accepting the reality of where you are and working with that seems to seems to be pretty powerful because you just you know start off and you know you can't choose where you start you just choose where you finish what's your relationship like with gratitude >> I do a lot of gratitude practice I think it's there's a mister uh Hle um said uh if you only said one prayer and it was thank you that would be enough. I think that's bang on. >> I think it's the the only because disposition is more important than position. >> Where you are in the world doesn't matter. Your disposition is everything. And the only thing that seems to shift disposition is a sense of gratitude. So across sort of time and space like we're lucky to be here now and we're lucky to have the friends that we have. We're lucky to have live in the world that we live in. It's extraordinary that we're in a privileged position. Uh, and I think acknowledging that on the regular is is great. >> Are you able to take time to celebrate when you're moving so quickly? >> Yeah. I I kind of think that thing of like celebration and gratitude are kind of linked. I think done correctly, celebration is gratitude in action. >> Like you, you know, you throw a party and you invite everyone, you celebrate and you, you know, there's kind of a there's something lovely about that kind of connection to other people and and kind of doing it with others. I don't think you can really celebrate on your own. I think being grateful with other people is really good as well. You know, sit down and chat with other people about how great is this. It's really nice. >> I think a lot of people struggle, especially when they're at their busiest, to take time away from doing the thing to think about the thing and to realize how fortunate they are to be in that situation. >> Yeah. Well, Chairman Mau, isn't it? Uh, you can't smell the roses from a galloping horse. >> I think I should chairman Mao quotes. >> I should I should put together a book. I was thinking about this. It would put together a book of like incredibly wise stuff shared by shitty people. [laughter] >> Like it be quite a good quote book of like going, "Well, I guess you know, stopwatch is right twice a day." >> It would be nice to have the quote on one page and then the person that said it on the next page. >> Yeah. Oh, equinimity with impermanence. Wow. Hitler. Oh, [ __ ] >> Damn it. Yeah. >> [ __ ] That's ruined that for me. >> Yeah. Uh but >> not that he never said that. Never mind. >> It is a It is It is an interesting challenge, right? When things are going well and everything's busy and you're not really paying that much attention, that is the time when gratitude is probably most available to you, but you're so busy, the calendar is always packed and you're moving forward, you're excited about the future. So, taking time to reflect on the present is pretty tough. And then when things slow down and stuff starts to go a little bit worse, that's when you wish that you'd had the gratitude from before to be able to rely on. And you retroactively try to think about >> it's the frames as well. It's how you think about stuff. like problems, right? Problems are uh a feature, not a bug. Problem just means something needs your attention. And I think I think people have a crazy notion if they stop and think about it that one day their problems will be over. They'll have dealt with everything and it's done. And it's it's well obviously not. They'll be you just level up. All you do is level up and you get more comp complex problems. If you can solve really complex problems, you're doing very well in the world. You know, Elon Musk is a trillionaire. Why? Cuz he solved some very complex problems >> and there's money to be made doing that, right? So you go, so problems are a bug, a a feature, not a bug. They're they're they're great. It just means something needs your attention. You should be grateful for that. Someone needs your time. Someone needs you need to take this call. You need to deal with this thing. Boredom, I think, is um boredom is unappreciated serenity. >> It's just you're in a serene moment. There's nothing going on. >> Great. Doesn't happen often. Like I can get to where Tibetan monks get to in an airport lounge in Detroit. Nothing going on. As long >> as you don't get your phone out. >> Yeah, it's fine. Just Yeah. Well, that thing of like we're kind of we're carrying the phone everywhere with us now. The the the it's it's like the mobile labor camp tracking our every mood. >> Mhm. Crazy. I was in the gym a couple of months ago. >> Of course you were. Look at you. >> Yeah. And one of my friends was talking to me about how his wife keeps on complaining at him that he uses his phone at night and he's always sending messages, organizing stuff, running businesses or whatever. And he came up with a very fortunate but uh I think actually philosophically pretty interesting excuse which is he said, "I've got a mind that likes to solve problems. I'm just trying to give it good problems to solve." >> I think lots of people have a problem-solving brain. >> Yeah. But only some people have great problems that they're going to solve with it. >> Well, that's what I think of with anxiety. Like my my mind is often racing. I often like wake up um with I suppose what you call a panic attack at like 4:00 or 5 in the morning. I'll wake up and my mind's just on >> and I'll worry about stuff and it's it's often counterfactuals worried about you know things going wrong people getting hurt you you just going to ruminate on crazy stuff and if I give it like oh we no but we need to write a joke about Kostama or Andy Burnham or something you go okay right give it something to do >> so using action as an antidote to anxiety then >> yeah I love that I love the idea that you go well that's that cures it pretty pretty well >> it's very difficult to worry about the future when you feel like you're moving yourself toward it. And yeah, that that problem solving brain thing is interesting because I wonder how many people are churning themselves up inside because they have a brain that likes to solve problems, but they don't have any good problems to solve. So, they pay attention to politics or porn or their ex or this situation that's outside of their control in some foreign country that they they can't get access to. >> Well, have we is that not what the news is, though? No, I mean, if you were trying to design something to um engender mental health difficulties, you would make someone aware of a problem and and give them no agency, right? And that's what reading about the Middle East is, right? So, you just go, it's a absolute cluster [ __ ] of a situation and there's nothing >> good luck dealing with that >> we can do about it. There's nothing we can there's nothing that you can do about it. >> Yeah. Because if I don't know, I wonder whether it would feel better or worse for the situation to actively have nothing you could do about there's an asteroid coming to Earth. No one can do anything about it. It's the the simulacum that someone could fix this, but not you. Yeah. I mean, we're not we're not in that game. It's uh yeah it's it's very I think that thing about having uh agency at a I think I think that okay there's a there's a bigger thing here which is I think we give maybe empathy to people that we like >> and agency to people that we don't like. So if you imagine there's two marchers right and one of them is like super far right uh dudes marching with skin heads and jack boots. We give them agency. If they put a brick through a window, we say, "Right, lock them up and throw away the key, right?" And then there's another um march and it's people marching for social justice, right? And we we and they throw a brick through a window. We go, "Well, you know, that's the language of the the streets, you the unheard." That thing of like go so we give them empathy and them agency. And actually, you should give both both. >> You need agency and empathy for everyone. like the idea that you go believe that people can handle it and believe that they, you know, everyone's got like um a part to play. >> Well, you need to be responsible for the things that you did, but also you're enshed in the situation that sort of brought you to that point too, >> like the motivations of of what got you there. But yeah, that that that problems thing. I really do think I I I wonder how many people would all that they need are better problems to solve. All that they need is something to focus their time and their attention on in a better way. And yeah, if you've got this situation that's occurring overseas, I came back from a a meditation retreat last week. I'd spent 7 days without my phone almost exclusively in silence. And I came back and I was flying out of SF and walked into the departure terminal. And one of the pieces of advice that we've been given was to put sunglasses on and put AirPods in because you basically been in silence for a week and no screens, no nothing. like it's a lot of stimulus to go from zero to 100. I went and sat down in this some airport restaurant thing. I looked up at the screens and it was wildfires in Europe raging. That was the first thing I saw on a screen basically since I'd got off of this retreat and I remember feeling this strange constriction inside of me. I'm like, >> I better get a hose. >> Why? Yeah. Why the [ __ ] is that what's on aware? Like is it newsworthy? Like, yeah, kind of. But like, what is it do? It's it's it makes us feel like we're being informed about the world, but really all it's doing is just piercing our nervous systems and making us feel worried about stuff. >> Strange. >> And yet, I want to be informed about what's happening in the world. I feel like I I'm so I guess addicted to that. Like, I like knowing what's going on. I like thinking about what the solution might be. >> Mhm. >> But I guess you don't you know, you get to chat about it, but you don't really get to uh influence what happens. M before we continue, most people in their 30s are still training hard. Their protein is dialed in. They sleep better than they did in their 20s. Discipline is not the issue, but recovery feels somewhat different. Strength gains take a little longer. The margin for error starts to shrink. And that is why I'm such a huge fan of timeline. You see, mitochondria are the energy producers inside of your muscle cells. As they weaken with age, your ability to generate power and recover effectively changes. even if your habits stay strong. Mitoure from timeline contains the only clinically validated form of urethylene A used in human trials. It promotes mphagy, which is your body's natural process for clearing out damaged mitochondria and renewing healthy ones. 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As you get better, your standards are always going to increase, so you're always going to suck in comparison to what you think that you should do. That's great because it continues to push you to work harder, to improve, but also it means that success isn't a cause for celebration. It's just the minimum level of acceptable performance and anything less than success becomes a failure. >> Yeah. Well, I think that that thing then you need to you need to be in uh a state of um uh I guess imposter syndrome once every 18 months, two years. need to level up constantly where you feel like you're in a space where oh well this is this is I can't believe I did that that was good >> uh like push yourself a little bit I think try and do something else >> is that difficult when you've got close to the top of your game >> well it depends what game you're in you can change games you can you sort of do things a little bit differently so that thing of like going it's um it's about I suppose you know my my business is uh you know you I'm in the service industry right I I make something that people want I make them happy >> and no one seems to remember any of my jokes, but they remember how I made them feel. And the show tonight is nothing more than an advert for the show when I come back next time. That's the way I'm kind of thinking of it. And then you're trying to find these moments now. The show's changed over the last couple of years where there's moments in every show. There's like a moment someone will ask something and you'll chat to them and it'll be slightly more um heartfelt and it'll there'll always be kind of that they're kind of sweetening the pill with laughter. >> Why did you change that? I I I think it was I I don't know what happened. I don't know what you know went on that I suddenly started chatting to people in the audience and we started to connect in a slightly different way. It's been really lovely >> and people I think I think comedy is is a I love that line is the shortest distance between two people. And I've often done this thing I've spoken about it I think to you before about um if you your best friend is the person you have the least filter with. Right. So, so if you meet someone on a plane and you go, "Wow, I see the World Cup. It's a good game, isn't it?" >> Nothing, right? Surface level. And if you say, "Oh my god, you have to see these hemorrhoids. This is incredible." Like, it's a you, you know, it's connecting at another level, you're just like, you've got no filter with that person. That's your best friend in the world. And if you treat the audience like that, you get paid back >> um 10 times over. Like people feel that, oh, okay, there's no he's treating us like adults. He's saying the things that he thinks are funny, and there's a real there's a connection there. And then increasingly like people aren't talking about things in the in the in the media in the mainstream media. So there's a gap there to chat about things that you know what's going on in the world. Isn't it interesting that what you're looking to do with comedy to kind of say the thing that maybe lots of people think or hadn't realized that they thought and to say it with a degree of um no fucks/bravery that mean that you're the person that that u pushes the boundary in that regard? Well, I think that the Overton window, like people talk about the Overton window in politics, the idea that you go this what's the most leftwing and what's the most right-wing thing you could say that's socially acceptable at a dinner party, right? That's the Overton window of conversation, right? And it's expanded massively in politics the last couple years to the left and to the right for better, for worse. I think comedy does that for conversation. I think the real benefit of going to a comedy show isn't necessarily the two hours you spend laughing at the jokes at the show. It's the conversation you have on the way home where you've the conversational Overton window has has broadened. I don't think people were as open talking about sex and politics u before and after George Carlin and Richard Prior came along. I think they expanded the window and I think you know someone like you know Chappelle's out there expanding the window of what you can and can't talk about. So, you've got that with uh I don't know what to say, how to categorize it, spicy topics, um insights that might be somewhat controversial or inflammatory or on the edges of what people would typically do. But there's another dimension which is a sort of level of sincerity or earnestness or emotionality and depth maybe uh a unapologetic self deprecating sometimes exposing look at how people are motivated and maybe how you are motivated or maybe how somebody in the audience feels about something and that almost feels like another type of Overton window and it's separate from the first one. It doesn't all need to be um you know you talk about the incredibly controversial thing. I'm very happy to talk about third rail topics and try and be funny about them. But I'm also very happy to to be earnest and to be sincere about it. There's a level of earnestness as well which is commonly publicly accepted and there is a level of earnestness and depth which pushes outside of that as well. Kind of obsessed with this idea that people are desperate for authenticity but they're allergic to sincerity. that people love the idea of someone just being themselves, speaking their truth forward. But when you see a father break down, crying because his wife left him, there's a a lot of the internet has this sort of allergic aversion response to that that there is a we want people to show themselves. >> I think if you if you're going to do anything that's that's even vaguely out there, you've got to turn off the comment section. >> Other people's opinion of me is none of my business. just you do your thing and you go you've got your audience and they come and they enjoy it and we have a good time great like anyone kind of you know throwing shade on that and going well you know how how can you talk about serious things he's he tells offensive jokes >> okay well I mean we all contain multitudes >> you get what I mean though here right you have the classic Overton window and then you have this emotional Overton window as well which is how how deep are you prepared to go in a live how how edgy are your jokes allowed to be >> and how earnest are your conversations allowed to be and there is a limit there is a not even a limit, but there is an expected bar beyond which oh like that people really sort of prick their ears up and pay attention and have a kind of they have a more animated response to it. And I think that one of the areas that you can dig into is like, holy [ __ ] like he really he really went there. Or when you're sat down with a friend or you have having a conversation with a friend over dinner and it's, you know, bouncing between the level of emotionality that's normal and then it descends into one that is not so common. Think about what are you what are you solving for in a comedy show? Like laughter is the main metric, right, for comedy. You want there to be three big laughs a minute and you want to have that frequency with the jokes, but also silence. Don't be a don't be afraid of silence. Like a silence where there's a poignant moment and everyone has a little think. Good. Fine. We can have that as well. >> But it's nice that it's changing because I mean it keeps it very exciting for me >> that you're not you're not doing the same thing again. It's not like you're doing the same show >> that we've got kind of different flavors. Certainly, you're looking to optimize for memorability to a degree as well, like for people to go like, "Yeah, I really really loved that sensation as opposed to what did you do? What was it like to go and see this artist last year?" And you're like, "I can't [ __ ] remember." Well, the memorable is because if someone chooses to come and see you live, it's it's a big deal, right? But really, I think people want to go out to festivals, see music, see they want to see play, but also like we used to gather around the fire and talk, right? And then we gathered around the radio >> and we talked and then we gathered around the television and we talked and even something like the royal family, you know that remember that sitcom in the UK, right? That it's like a distant memory people watching TV like that because now we have the phones and people are on their own. They're watching their own thing. They're watching their own stream. >> Even if they were in the same living room together, each person would be on a screen of their own that nobody else is looking at. And I suppose, hey, have you seen this thing, but yeah, you are right. The royal family, which I guess Americans are definitely not going to understand the reference, but people sitting around watching the television together as a family and you would watch shows that you weren't necessarily that into because mom liked it. So you go, "Oh, I guess we're watching Desperate Housewives." Whatever it was, there's only one TV as opposed to five TVs per room. I was thinking about this recently about the the idea of social media and the the issues around it, the bigger picture. There used to be a thing when I was at school where people talk about um uh the Native American peoples having this belief that if someone took their photo, it would steal their soul. Okay? And I remember thinking, "Oh, that's crazy. That is ridiculous. They think their photo is going to steal their soul." And now I think yeah, I mean it might not be one photo, but a thousand a day that'll do it. That'll absolutely do it. That will that will break you away from who you are. That'll you'll you'll be alienated from yourself. And then I was thinking about the even the language of it. It's not hiding. It's nets and webs. The internet. >> How so? >> It's the web, right? >> Mhm. >> It's the internet. What do nets and webs do? They catch people. That's what it's doing. I think Ordis Huxley was right about this. our power will not be taken from us by some overlord. I think we'll give it away for cheap dopamine and Ordis Huxley said it was uh s which was the tablet right and he was even right about that. It's just a different kind of tablet. So not some equivalent here of uh treating people like slaves caused them to not work as hard as you might want them to and they would rebel and sometimes they would be lazy. But if you can manage to create a system where people actually want to work as hard for you as you want them to work by incentivizing them on the back end, then you'll get them to continue to drive themselves insane as they work harder and harder. I guess it's kind of the same here. But with regards to distraction and freely giving away your information and giving away your attention as well, you don't need to demand it from people. You just need to make the incentives align that they want to give it to you. >> Yeah, it's I mean it's a it's a really interesting time. I think we haven't got this it's a very new technology as well. these new technologies are coming along. We have to sort of integrate them into our society. I don't I think it will be ultimately the trajectory will be up and it'll be better, but we have to learn how to work with this stuff. I mean AI is the other thing that everyone's kind of talking about. You go, we haven't quite figured out what it is yet. I think AI is like a musical instrument and anyone can sit down at a piano and make a noise at the piano, but it takes time and attention and practice to direct it into creating a symphony, right? It's it's it's like an instrument. You we're going to be using that tool, but how do we use it? And at the moment, it's it's very sort of early stages. It's that thing of um my take on AI is like I don't have religion. I don't think we were made in God's image. But I think we so wanted there to be a God. We created one in our image. It's >> all knowing, all powerful, can create miracles and lives in a cloud. >> Well, what am I talking about? >> I think it's like that. That's it's Hegel and nature had the idea hundreds of years ago. The idea that the God wasn't there for the big bang, but the universe is a device for creating God and that we are the universe experiencing itself. Everyone's very impressed with AI because they've forgotten what they are. >> We are much more impressive than AI. AI is really good at leftrain [ __ ] Really good at leftrain stuff. But the right brain stuff and and the left brain um apprehends but the right brain comprehends. It's all Ian McGillchrist's stuff and that idea that you go the gestalt the whole the the complex stuff it can't do it can do the complicated though so well so in a sense maybe it'll take away the drudgery of life and allow us to be more human and to do more artistic fulfilling fun things with our lives that make us feel more connected. That's the dream. Yeah, that's that's the dream that's being put forward. I think a lot of people have kind of forgotten about the connection comprehend side of things of their own existence so much that if there is a threat to the drudgery being taken away and that's not to say that that's all it's going to do, right? It very well might take away everything else as well. >> Well, but we can only see the jobs it will take away because they already exist. We can't see the jobs it will create because by definition they don't exist yet. >> Mhm. >> So it's that thing of like going well it's we're in this we're in a pickle now and it's this has happened before. This is precedented. The industrial revolution really made physical strength uh obsolete. You you don't need that anymore to farm the land to to to make things. You don't need physical strength. Machines do all of that for us. >> And then this is taking away some of the the drudgery of white collar work. But hopefully the creativity will become will be uniquely human. Favorable conditions never come. There are always plenty of rivals to our work. We are always falling in love or quarreling, looking for jobs or fearing to lose them, getting ill and recovering, following public affairs. If we let ourselves, we shall always be waiting for some distraction or other to end before we can really get down to our work. The only people who achieve much are those who want knowledge so badly that they seek it while the conditions are still unfavorable. favorable conditions never come. >> Yeah, that's really good, isn't it? >> But just there is this sense that at some point in future my problems will be out of the way and I can finally get down to doing the real thing as opposed to thinking this is the situation that I'm existing in. I'm always going to be faced with problems. There is never going to be a time where I have none. Like completing a video game and arriving at a level where there's no more enemies. M that's just what life is. Yeah. Well, you want people to have some idea that there's a future, that there's a um that that they want to start families, that they want to um live a life. You know, there's, you know, shocking statistics about the abortion rate in the UK. You heard this? >> I don't know. >> So, it's I think it's one in three viable pregnancies now end in abortion in the UK, which you put the morality to one side. Um that's not my business. But the idea of going well what does that really suggest that people feel that they can't start a life they can't build a family they can't you know settle down they don't feel able to with the you know the the climate that we have at the moment >> yeah favorable conditions never come >> yeah the favorable conditions you want people to feel like they can you know that life's going to be better for their kids going to be better for them >> wouldn't it be wonderful if favorable conditions felt like they were here even when they weren't like that's the kind of world that you want people to be in right an abundance mindset as opposed to a scarcity mindset I Believing that you need to wait for favorable conditions in future is by definition a scarcity mindset. Right now is not enough and in future it may be better if I can construct the world into this very specific kind of a way >> does feel like we're living through a very kind of unique time. I mean I suppose everyone always thinks this but like did did they in the '90s there was nothing going on in the '90s. >> There was I mean you you live through it you tell me. Yeah, relatively quiet >> right since the kind of the end of Pax Americana and really since this phase of history sort of starts in ' 89 ' 91 >> it's the Berlin war collapses the Soviet Union's gone and suddenly you go from being a bipolar world to a unipolar world and no one noticed for you know 30 years but just as the American Navy got smaller like the canary in the coal mine was the Somali pirates like that never would have happened when the US Navy was at full strengthm with an enemy in Russia that it was, you know, it would have pleased that no problem at all. Safe navigation. Yeah, they would have they would have schooled them and and then suddenly sort of things fracture. Suddenly you've got all these sort of different things. We live in a multipolar world now and it it's very confusing. It's, you know, on a geopolitics level, it's it's a very strange time. And you're seeing this revolution go on. And you, if you take revolution to mean the replacement of elites, like the mainstream media is being replaced. Um, the the academia, there's a replication crisis and they've lost a lot of credibility. Um, politics now, the the major parties in the UK may never win another election. Uh, the ones that we've had the last hundred years. It's it's really is kind of a a fracturing of our system. I suppose it gets back to Robert Frost and the idea civilization is a clearing in the forest. Then we have to relitigate and rebuild all of this stuff. 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Right now, you can get up to 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom and using the code modern wisdom a checkout. Do you think that people are going to look back in 50 years time, 30 years time at 2026 and go, "Those were the good old days." The nostalgia that a lot of people have for the 90s. I I don't know. I think there's there's something about the uh the what's that lovely quote? Uh, strong men make good times, good times make weak men, weak men make hard times, hard times make strong men, and so it goes. >> And I think there's something about we're in a very tumultuous time now. Like the tech is hard times. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think this is this is hard times. >> I think it's it's very tough out there for people. And um I think that there's a lack of leadership and there's you know, you look at how countries are being run. It's yeah, it's clearly these are these are hard times. >> You know the idea of kayfabe, right? That thing from WWE where it's all about the kind of the meta game that's being played, the optics, it's >> everything is unreal and surreal. And definitely if you look back, I mean, there was that um debate analysis between Obama and I can't remember who it was that he was going up against uh in sort of 2012, 2008. And before they begin, they just wanted to I just wanted to say my opponent, I respect him very much and I appreciate the this thing and d >> and then you roll the clock forward to this literal WWE event where there's personal insults and swearing and back and forth and you think >> I I don't know the the the is statesmanlike behavior unnecessarily stodge is it this sort of uh prim Ed proper pomp and circumstance which isn't needed or has something there been if not lost like caricatured sort of turned into this this uh uh exposition of itself this sort of ridiculous role playing game. Everybody's laughing as what they're supposed to be and it's all being turned to extremis. It certainly feels very extreme at the moment. I mean it really it really does but I think it I don't think it's unfixable. I think we've been in worse spots than this in the past. You know, there must have been there must have been people sort of in 1943 going, "This is we're in the middle of a world war. This is bad, isn't it? >> This is bad. What's going to happen? How are we going to straighten this out?" >> I think about that a lot. I think about how sort of kinetically and literally things were significantly worse at almost every period in human history up until now. But I wonder whether sort of metaphysically and symbolically things were quite as bad. I wonder whether we have the most sort of confusing time now, even if it's not the most kinetically dangerous time. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I think there's there's solutions out there and I think it's a it's a question of um I think statesman is really the thing that you you need. You need great leadership in these kind of times. Need someone that's good thinking about sort of 20 years in the future rather than the election cycle. >> What's happening in the UK at the moment? I've not been back for a while. The UK is not it's not in a great situation and I mean I think Andy Bernham's going to take over and uh I wish him well and I don't know what's going to change. I think it requires some sort of radical realism. You know, if you were going to fix the UK, what would you do? I think the fundamentals are it needs to be more competitive as a nation. And what makes a nation competitive? Well, 2% on income tax either way or changing the stamp duty laws. It's all kind of nothing. just rearranging the debt chairs on the Titanic. They need someone to come in and and actually address the real problem. There's four things that affect a country's competitiveness. I think there's the currency, the rate of the currency, there's the energy cost, there's the amount of um uh what you call it um red tape bureaucracy. Uh and and there's well and then hang on, I'll have a drink. Culture. Oh, no. Uh, sorry, I'll give you that again. Um, so you got the currency y, you've got energy costs, you've got um red tape, and you've got tax. And you can do things to all four of those to make the country more competitive. And really, Britain needs to be competitive on the global stage. We, you know, when we left Europe, for better, for worse, people voted for for that. And we never really did it, and we never really competed. So I mean if I was in charge right if you if I was in charge for the day I devalue the currency I devalue the pound I think pound's overvalued and you know why a pint 750 in London well because it's overvalued as a currency uh the the idea that you you would decrease the value of the pound people talk about redistribution of wealth to the north we keep it high because of the city of London and actually I'm not really concerned about the exchange rate affecting your holiday in France being more expensive for two weeks of the year. I'd be more concerned with the other 50 weeks of the year where you work. We we got to be a net exporter of things. So our things need to be cheaper. And in order to do that, we have to lower the the currency value, which is relatively easy to do. >> People say that the UK is the seventh biggest economy in the world, but it's not. It's the seventh biggest city in the world surrounded by a very poor country. >> Yeah. And then but you want it to be redistributed. You want there to be, you know, factories being built >> as far away from London as you can get. Yeah. It didn't feel like the wealth of the city of London was reaching Newcastle or Middlesborough Stockton. >> No. And we have the most expensive energy in the world. I think it's like four times higher than you go. It's crazy. We, you know, and it's systematically being um being I mean, >> is this Green New Deal stuff? Is that why? >> Well, there's a bit of that, but I mean, it's like we we I'm all for the Green New Deal. Just give me a long enough runway. Give me 25 years and I'll give you net zero. >> Not 2030. But but what I want to do, I want to be as technologically advanced, if you can imagine this for ambition, as technologically advanced as France was in the 70s. So France in the 1970s built 56 nuclear plants. They've got the cheapest energy in Europe. >> They give a [ __ ] what Russia says or what's going on in the Middle East because they've got their they've got their energy sorted. >> Do that. >> Do that. And then but it's a very long range. Anyone that says I can fix energy in in a in two months, like you're living in a dream world. It's a very long range problem. And then regulation, the red tape, the regulation. Just cut all of that. Cut all of that. We're like, we're like the sort of it's like the end of the Soviet Union. The amount of regulation you need to do anything in the UK now. They could cut an awful lot of that red tape and and kind of free people to be more um entrepreneurial. Everybody likes the idea of being in a country that's got an illustrious history. It's so esteemed. Like how long it's been around. Got a guy comes out. He's got this mace and dots his cap and there's wood everywhere. everything's [ __ ] mahogany. You go, "Yeah, that's great." But you also do accumulate a lot of [ __ ] along the way and a lot of bureaucracy and there's a lot of hurdles that you need to jump over in order to get >> like you know the tax thing as well. It's very close to my heart. But the tax thing is like if you go to like Estonia post the Soviet era they went we've got to do something and they didn't have much time to think and they've got one tax form. Estonia has one tax form. Estonia has a law where the government can't ask you for the same bit of information twice. So if you give it if you give your address to your doctors, they assume that the tax man knows your address and everyone else because it's all joined up, >> right? >> So and the tax form is one page and they have a flat rate of tax and they collect an awful lot of tax. I'm not interested in equality. I'm interested in abundance. Like what would be the thing that would just get everyone living in Britain? We just have to compete with other countries and get people to come to us, >> start businesses, and want to live where we are. We've got the same number of universities in the top 10 as America does, but we produce five times fewer entrepreneurs give out of those universities. >> I think we probably produce the same amount of entrepreneurs, but they end up somewhere else. They're not in Great Britain. >> Brain drain. >> Yeah, they're all somewhere else. Which is I think it's like it's possible to, you know, to change it. I mean, listen, that's that's what I would do with the UK. I'd go right currency lower that energy. you need a you need a 20-year plan for energy in the UK regulation. You'd cut a bunch of that and you'd have a flat rate tax and and then just you would you would see if that works and then if it doesn't, you would you would change it. But I think that's that would be a kind of a positive thing to do. I think America's like America's like I think I could fix America in two moves. >> Okay. All right. So I would have um open primaries >> for Congress, Senate, presidential, everything would be open open. So people would have to they'd have to go to the center. You wouldn't be appealing to your constituency. You'd be appealing to the center. 90% of people agree about 90% of everything. >> Mhm. And then I would have term limits for senators uh and Congress because like I don't blame Donald Trump for being powerful. I blame the checks and balances for not checking and balancing. >> Them done their job. >> It's an amazing piece of technology, the American Constitution. But you've got to you've got to work. It doesn't just sit there. You've got to it's it's an active thing. >> I mean, I had Bernie Sanders on the show and he's been in government longer than I've been alive. >> Yeah. All right. I mean, >> it's pretty intense. >> Yeah. That's it. I think the idea like 20 years maybe 20 years doesn't sound that sounds reasonable. >> Is there term limits in the UK? >> Um, no. >> Right. >> But there were term limits that there didn't used to be a term limit on president. I think it was they brought it in with Roosevelt. >> Right. >> Roosevelt did I think three times. >> He was trying to go for three. Yeah. >> Yeah. Anyway, yeah, that's we solve the problems of the world there. >> Fixed it. Yeah. It's super uh Have you heard David Oglevy's line, you can't save souls in an empty church? heard it a couple of weeks ago and I've kind of been obsessed with it since. This sort of idea that if you believe in something, you have a moral duty to spread that message around and that a lot of people insulate themselves from having to have their ideas meet reality by oh it's just so it's so sophisticated and refined. That's the reason that it hasn't managed to become sufficiently popular. It's like being the underground band whose music is just, you know, it's it's very it's sort of a virtuoso type. It would be very hard for you to the the the proletariat. They wouldn't be able to understand how sophisticated it is that we're doing. Um, but yeah, you can't save souls in an empty church to me makes it kind of incumbent on anybody that believes in a thing to find a way to get that message out and to Monday morning quarterback whatever it is that you care about, whether it's climate or young people or suicide or the birth rate or [ __ ] art or taxes or whatever. Like it is kind of incumbent on you to find a way to >> I I don't know. Yeah, I mean I totally agree. Yeah, I think that idea of like talking about those things that are uh third rails and getting a message out there is really good. It's probably the most um difficult but the most kind of beautiful bit of my show at the moment is uh uh I talk about suicide in the show and I say why I tell people the terrible truth which is suicide doesn't work. People commit suicide because they want to get rid of the pain but you can't get rid of the pain. All you can ever hope to do is redistribute the pain to the people that loved you. >> And it's a big moment. It's like a people that are, you know, and there's a non-zero number of people in the audience that are suffering that go, "Oh, right. Oh, this is this is my burden to carry." >> It's a it's a tough thing, but it's it's kind of it's interesting to talk about that stuff. It's interesting to have that platform and to feel like, okay, I can I can say that. >> That's a terrifying realization. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's big. But but if it if if one person listens to that and goes, "Oh, right. Okay. Yeah. That means I can't." Great. There's some data from that George from the Tinmen told me that I think 90% of men who took their own lives had sought help from a mental health practitioner before they did it. So the we just need people to sort of open up and talk to the professionals thing. It doesn't seem to be working in the way that we anticipated it to. >> Yeah. It's it's real, isn't it? Feel everything. Beauty and terror. No feeling is final. >> Yeah. Well, unfortunately it can be if people decide to make that make that decision. Yeah. I um there's a something similar from Blake Burge. One of the best pieces of advice I ever got. If you want a calmer life, you need to address small problems while they're still small. The cost of dealing with an issue rarely gets cheaper with time. Procrastination turns uncomfortable things into unavoidable things. Basically, like if it doesn't fit, eventually it'll hurt wearing it. >> Yeah, I think that's that's really that's again it's on the that kind of compound interest. Yeah. on the positive things and you know if you're saving money it works if you're building skills it works but also if you have problems you don't address them it's going to get worse over time >> um so addressing that and having the tough conversations I think getting a quality of your life is kind of is you could probably track it with how many uncomfortable conversations are you willing to have or do you feel comfortable to have right how many people around you can you speak to with no filter and then there's the other half of that which is who can you sit in silence with and not need to fill it the most the way that you can work out who your best friend is. >> Yeah. Make a terrible [ __ ] podcast. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah. But it would be wonderfully regulating for the two guests that were there. Just don't publish those ones. Publish the ones where you talk with no filter. >> Yeah. >> But yeah, it's uh >> I don't know. I I really feel like we're on the cusp of something happening where, okay, we've got these new technologies and they're atomizing people and they're distracting them and then everyone kind of becomes a little bit aware of the fact that maybe they're dangerous or maybe they're making us live our lives in a way which is maladaptive and although immediately gratifying, uh, ultimately becomes kind of destructive. And now we're just about getting to the point where people are thinking, I probably need to take some like really intense action to try and get rid of that out of my life. I need to join a run club. I need to start going out to shows. I need to force myself to head to a coffee shop. I don't want to be working from home anymore. Like the self-imposed working from home. I'm going to go back into the office. I'm going to spend time around people. I'm going to, you know, try and change the scope on my sniper rifle to adjust for the wind which is blowing toward me so that I can start to shoot more toward the target that I want to live my life like. But yeah, like people's ability to adapt to new techn technology is able to move so much more quickly than our habits are. And that means that for a long time, last decade, decade and a half, people were on the receiving end of it. And now I think people are starting to realize, okay, I >> mean, I think it's knowing what we are as well. It's that it's that great quote of the uh paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions, and god-like technology. >> Well, let's roll the dice on that and see how we do. >> I mean, it seems kind of it it it's crazy, and it's only going to get worse, I think, now with um the interface of AI, the idea that this this new technology has kind of come along and how's that going to change the world? So, it's kind of shifting sands. I just think people people do, you know, we are we need to be connected and that's kind of the business model of what I do is like getting people out to shows and to sit in a room together and to laugh. >> They had to put pants on. That's a big deal. >> Yeah. >> I but I I do think that thing of like that's what people kind of crave going out and being together. They'll be they don't necessarily even have to know the other people just to be there. It's like sort of it's like church. >> They're kind of coming together and finding something. M you might not believe me, but this is what peak sleep optimization looks like. I'm not talking about the night gown that's just for sex appeal. I'm talking about my eight. The eight pod 5 comes with a smart cover you throw on your mattress that actively cools or heats each side of the bed up to 20°. And now they've added the world's first temperature regulating duvet and pillowcase. So you've got 360° coverage for deep uninterrupted rest. 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Like the way that you degrade your trust in yourself, like we were talking about earlier on, happens with one missed promise, with one uh attempt at a change that you decided against doing or that you couldn't hold yourself to doing. And this is why, yeah, small changes do end up compounding. It's also why it feels very unfair. Like people can look at someone who's at the top of their particular industry and say, well, like why is it that all of the gains acrew to that person? It's like well because the compounding interest is working in their favor and the same thing happens in reverse unfortunately too that people kind of spiral up. >> I do worry about the the arts that I like the um uh oligarchy of the arts. There's an oligarchy in the arts now where you go with movies um it's existing IP or it's sequels or prequels >> that dominate I mean really dominate there's like five big movies a year that dominate like 90% of the box office and with music it's the uh oligarchy of like five huge artists that dominate globally. >> Yeah. >> You know and it used to be 100 artists or 200 artists that all sold pretty well. Books is the same. You know books are the same. Um, you know, I hope comedy is broad enough that there's like people can pick their favorite stuff and it doesn't get dominated too much by big names that you you want it to be so that there's lots of different people enjoying it. I think I mean my big kind of driver is I want to get more people interested in doing comedy rather than just going to see it. I mean I I've written this book um on jokes with my friends um Abby Grant and Amanda Baker and it's like how to be a comedian really essentially how to how to write jokes. Can anyone become funny? >> I think so. Yeah, I think so. I think everyone's got kind of a story to tell. And if you think about what standup comedy is, right? It's um ordering your thoughts, writing them down, and finding your own authentic voice. That strikes me as an incredibly worthwhile activity that should be taught in schools. >> That's probably got more um going for it than learning music. Music's very valuable to learn as well, but you go grade eight on the piano won't come in handy when you're doing a best man speech or a presentation at work or talking to your partner. And actually having that ability to um write down your thoughts and find find some perspective in life, which is also kind of what comedy does. It's it's it's very good at um waking us up. Think about what jokes are, right? It's it's kind of like Cardaman. Is it cardaman? Um uh thinking fast and slow. >> Cynaman. Okay. So um first order and second order thinking. So the setup for a joke is first order thinking. It's it's you you make an assumption about what the guy's going to say and then the punch line kind of snaps you into oh I actually had to think about that. Oh, okay. So it's that idea of the brain way to think about it. >> The brain is designed >> to not have to think. >> Your brain is designed to Yeah. It's a >> Your brain's an LLM. >> Yeah. It's it's pattern recognition. It's exactly LLM. You're right. And then comedy makes you kind of, oh, oh, okay, I'm thinking, I've got to think about that in a new way. >> They've actually got to think about that thing. It like snaps you awake. I think it's it's quite childlike in a sense because children really think and grown-ups tend to be like beyond a certain age. You're just pattern recognition. You've seen this all before. And so comedians have this ability to really think about stuff. It's very attractive um uh way of being. I think teaching that is is a I'd like more people to kind of get into it. I think they'd enjoy watching it more if they knew a little bit more about it. And also I think the idea of going there's so many great it's quite a new medium comedy. It's not been around for as long as music. You know what the um Well, hang on. I'll have a drink. I'll tell you a story. >> You heard of Gregorian chants? Yes. Okay. Do you know why you've heard of Gregorian chants? And I will tell you, don't panic. Okay. So, Pope Gregory, I don't know, a thousand years ago, is wandering around the Vatican and he goes to some local churches and they're all singing the songs differently and he goes, "Well, this is some nonsense. I want them all to be sung the same. Um, write down the music." And the guy, the bishops or whatever go, "Ah, the thing is though, you can't write down music because it's sort of ethereal. it's like from another um realm and it just has to be it's about soul and a groove and what whatever the [ __ ] they said and he went here's the thing I'm the pope write it down and so they wrote down the music and we know what Gregorian chants are now interestingly fast forward 400 years from that and you have bark and Mozart Beethoven which couldn't have existed without musical notation so writing down comedy. Like there's too much magical thinking in my business. There's too much, oh that guy's just got funny bones or oh, he just gets up there and and does the thing and oh, he just wings it. He's just funny. >> No, it's like jokes. They're jokes. It doesn't it doesn't diminish the um enjoyment of jokes to know how they work. I think it's uh and and the less magical thinking, the more everyone can go, "Yeah, can you learn how to be funny?" "Yeah, Kushka. Kushka." And you've got a story to tell and you've got a voice. Most men live lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with a song unsung. I don't want that to happen. I'm on jokes. Right. So, you're kind of arguing that unlike music or acting or writing, comedy's never had a a shared vocabulary and you can invent one. You've invented one. Why do you think? >> Well, I suppose it's about putting it together. I mean, you're standing on the shoulders of giants. You kind of didn't invent anything. you just spotted what was there? >> In the same way as musical notation doesn't create music. It describes music that already exists. >> Yeah. And then can you reverse engineer it and and see if it works? So, I'm working on I've written the book that's coming out in October and then or we've written the book. It's Abby and Amanda and I. Um and then we're working on putting together a kind of a course like like kind of an interactive course whereby you could sort of there's such great teaching methods out there especially using AI as a teaching method. It's really it's really interesting like what what can you achieve with that? I mean is it going to grow corn? Can I can I build a comedian with that? If I can then great. >> You say that you've got the first scientific theory of what actually makes jokes work. >> Well, I don't know if it's a scientific theory. You know, we've got it's it's kind of it's all in there. It's a bit inside baseball, but that thing of like the different ways the jokes work and the I mean it broadly speaking is that thing of like um taking that that pattern recognition and reversing it like making sure that you waking up the mind, >> the sudden revelation of a previously concealed fact. >> It's it's it's so simplistic in a way, but that trick is just delightful. >> Have you ever felt guilty at giving the trick away? Like do you think that other comedians are going to get annoyed at you for demystifying it? No, it's like the it's like the everywhere had a a guild, right? Everyone had a um a secret society. It's like the the magic circle of comedy. I think most comedians that I know don't really know how they write jokes. They kind of they find it on stage or stuff occurs to them and they they note it down and they remember it and but they don't have like >> they're virtuoso musicians, but they don't know notation. >> Yeah. It's a it's a they wouldn't be able to teach it because they they haven't thought about it in that way. Great. Well, they're doing their thing and they're doing great. Fine. And but I think the idea of being able to be more systematic about it is is a really sort of positive idea. And I I'd like to have that I'd like to give that gift to people to to to be able to um throw the rope down and say, "Come on, we we can all do this." Is writing harder than performing? >> I think writing is the Yeah, writing is the job. And writing is self assignment. You got to sit down and no one ever tells you. There's no point in a comedian's career career where their manager sits down and goes, "All right, you got to write." It's like the people just assume that. Um, and you know, and you you that's the preparation. That's the reason that you sort of, you know, succeed or fail. You got to sort of deliver on that. >> How do you feel about comedians having writers or buying jokes off other comedians? >> I I guess, you know, if you write on TV shows or whatever, it's the absolute norm. It's like on A Tank Outs or Last One Laughing or any of those shows that I do, we've got like a writing room and we they're brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. And some people are great at writing. Some people are great at writing and they don't really want to perform. So that seems pretty valid. >> Yeah, I there must be a comedian today who you think sort of embodies everything the book's trying to teach and then presumably there's someone who you think is great despite discarding many of the rules. Well, I think you know it's comedians you're dealing with. So I mean I think knowing what the rules are is the first step and then breaking them all will be >> Who do you think breaks them the most? Uh, in terms of comedically, I'm just trying to think of like someone um that's funny and it may it might be someone like Bob Mortimer >> which I don't think Vick and Bob might be slightly lost on your American audience, but the like really surrealist comics where you kind of absurd. >> I can't quite put my finger on why that's funny, but it's really really funny >> and it's taken me kind of >> back and by surprise and out of nowhere. >> Is that stuff less formulaic? Is that a little bit more kind of the jazz virtuoso improvisation? It's less funible than >> I think so. But I mean, but Vic and Bob love jokes as well. So, I mean, it's it Yeah. And no. And it's it's whatever you want to be. I mean, they're they're very unique. I think also they kind of fall into that thing of going this if done correctly, I think, learning how to write jokes and then you put yourself into it. So, it's that thing of like with comedy, you you don't want to be the best. You want to be the only. There's no best in comedy. There's no, "Oh, he's the best comedian." Like a top 10 list is meaningless because it's what makes you laugh. What do you like? And the more someone is themselves on stage, the the more people sort of gravitate towards them. So that idea of going it's it's like it's not a competition. It's like it doesn't matter how many people do well. It just makes it a bigger pie. Let's say that you had six months with someone completely unfunny to try and make them as funny as possible. What would you be teaching them first? I think the the I think the first thing would be to recognize you know that their story what what do they want to say? What could they say that no one else could say? What's their story? What's their take on life? What's their and it might be they want to tell a personal story. It might be they want to talk about politics. It might be that they're interested in sports. Whatever they want to talk about, you sort of assess that and then okay, how do we how do we get into that? How do we get how do we make that surprising and delightful to to listen to? M >> it's nice cuz I think everyone needs I think everyone's got a sense of humor. >> It's like everyone's got like like you say someone unfunny, everyone's got our sense of humor. How dark or sardonic or or sarcastic it is that varies and what you like varies. It's it's that thing of like your taste in comedy is like your taste in uh food and sex. >> Some people like spicy, some people like vanilla. It's great. >> What about timing? What's the secret to comic timing? There seems to be a pattern in rhythm that's the kind of the the the approximate speed of development where if you speak at about sort of 92 beats per minute if you speak in that kind of in that rhythm um that tends to be not just for comedy actually for spoken word for political speeches as well that seems to work very well for people that they they get into that that rhythm and you can see the audience kind of respond to that. So if you if you're I it seems almost kind of um magical. I don't think it is. I think it's like a uh there's something about that cadence of speech that just lends itself to an audience being able to kind of tune into what you're saying and focus. >> And some people kind of they they rush it and it feels a bit garbled and they're all over the place. And that doesn't mean speaking f fast or slow. It's like it's where you put the the intonations, where you put the beat. >> So I think the rhythm is incredibly important. >> Uh I have a dream. Is it 92? >> Yeah. And I think there's a Winston Churchill one as well. >> Obama's Obama's 92. And he he speaks quite slowly, but he's he's on that on that beat and he's a magnificent public speaker. >> What joke template do you think has survived longest? What's the most classic? >> The most classic is I I guess, you know, the the pullback reveal where like it's almost like a comic strip where you you're kind of looking at this thing and then you pull back and he's on the bus. you know that that thing is that seems to work sort of universally across time and there's word play. I mean I think that you know jokes are the the haha and the aha are very similar. They're often kind of insights >> into something and when people kind of um realize something. I think the oldest joke is the uh it's like there's a the lover of laughter. It's an old Roman book of jokes and it has a joke in it that still works, I think, where a guy's in the barbers getting his haircut and the barber says, "How do you want your haircut?" And the guy says, "In silence." It's almost like 4,000 years old. It's joke- shaped. I wouldn't open with it, but yeah. [laughter] [gasps] What's been the change since doing more of the crowdworks stuff and putting that online? Because we're seeing an awful lot of that at the moment. >> I think it's it's made it slightly uh bigger. Um in terms of the audience is like, you know, it's growing. Um I think it's there's there's more of a connection to people now. So you kind of come up and it would have been you know 5 years ago people might come up and say well I saw the show and I thanks a photo and now people kind of want to have a conversation about something. >> It's very nice. deepen the connection. >> Yeah, I think so. I think I'm trying to kind of Okay, so it was like I had my standup sort of persona on stage telling jokes and then this kind of, you know, podcast mode and they're merging >> and I'm really excited about that. I really like it. I really like the idea that there's like there'll be don't don't panic. There'll be 90 minutes of bang oneliners in the show, but there'll also be half an hour of this, you know, chatting about stuff and life. Great. How much has that influenced you? Because obviously, you know, you were pretty well established doing the the jokey thing and then even though you've been well read and you did the university stuff and all the rest of it, the it does feel to me like there's been a pivot and you know, fortunately me and George have been able to like be a part of that and like be friends and hang out and stuff. How much has the wisdom verse come podcast world influenced that thing? >> I think it's been a huge influence. It's also that thing of like it it's what are you interested in talking about, you know? It's it's like it's not it also you don't want to be one note like like you see a band play on stage and they and everything is a is uh a floor filler, but sometimes you want to slow it down. >> You need a couple of ballads in there. So, it's it's nice to have a mix in the set where you go, okay, well, I know, you know, you go out there and you do 20 minutes of just oneliners. Great. But then you want to have a little bit of a chat with people and see where the evening takes us. >> And to also make it feel like it's just live in the room and this is happening now and it's not going to happen again. >> The quick silver of it is really nice. The idea that it's like, okay, this is happening now and then the moment's passed. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I've been thinking a lot about some of the reliance that me and the boys have had on like really trying to drill home a bunch of core principles. And I came across this Nabil Kareshi quote that said, "A cursed fact of the world is that the most important life lessons you learn are the hardest to communicate to others because they always sound like cliches." >> Yeah. And I understand why permanently drilling the same or what appear to be variants of the same kind of like trite insight around well you know fake it until you make it but you need to believe in it and beforehand. >> Is it trit though? >> I don't think it is. I think it's like that thing if you go through >> but it's also that thing of like if you read the comments you know it'll be someone being terribly kind of um above it all going rubbish. Oh. Oh, systems beat goals. Uh, whatever. >> Yeah. Okay. What have you done? >> Well, there's definitely a question of if if you're so smart, how come you still haven't done it? Like, if you get bored of people talking about cold, dark, quiet for your bed. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Why is it that your sleep still sucks? >> Yeah, it's it's okay as well. It's okay to go through that. I think, you know, early 20s is really the best time for that. If you want to be super cynical and [ __ ] on everything, great. Do your thing. And then at some point you go right who's what what can I do? What like because it's that thing of like there's two different ways of learning. Like sometimes some lessons you have to go and like the reason to write the book on jokes is I feel like I macheteed my way through the jungle to become a comedian. I feel like like it was not a wellworn path. You have to kind of write get there and how do I write this and how do I put on a show and how do I do the thing and okay doing two shows a night. what whatever that thing was that I kind of I've created this career for myself and I feel like now it's incumbent on me to help and to say well what how look just do this do this that'll help that'll definitely move you that won't be wasting your time >> if you want to do the same thing as me just that's how you write the jokes great then go and do your own thing but I I I think the idea of like not repeating the stuff because you think well people heard this before well maybe I I think is that what's that great quote about um >> in the work of genius we see our own discarded thoughts. >> Yeah. >> So the idea that we we're constantly uh we're hearing stuff that we kind of know a lot of the time. It's like there's nothing that I'll say that people will go, "Oh, wow. This is totally new." But they might go, "Oh, I've kind of forgotten that." >> I think if it's something that is totally new, often people probably will be more likely to discard it. You I've got no anchor point at all. you need to be incredibly uh brave and have quite high conviction around whoever it is that you're listening to to pivot your entire worldview based on something that you had no reference point prior to. But yeah, I don't know what the critical mass is of people needing to hear an insight before they become convinced by it. But I know that it's usually not once. And with that in mind, yeah, I I look, I I really like trying to drill home pathy insights that are condensed down in a way that you can remember. Like my memor is not that great. So for me, synthesizing or condensing down a big idea into pathy little apherism or a mantra, >> but it's almost like it's what remains, right? So let's say you read a book and it's 500 pages long. You remember one little quote from that book. Well, that's what remains. That's the the the thing that you just can't get rid of. You can't get out of your head. It's just it's in there and you go, "Well, that's that's kind of brilliant. That's great. That's that's the the nugget that you were looking for." >> And then you you walk with that and if it changes how you interact with the world a little bit, then fantastic. Has your opinion on trajectory and position changed given that >> your trajectory has sort of continued to rise now to I think whatever the most dates in the world or something like that that you did last year or the was it the biggest global tour by tickets sold in comedy? Something like that. I you struggle to find anyone to care. But yeah, like I think the trajectory is is very good. It's kind of it, you know, it's building nicely. And I think more important than that, I think when are people happy? When they're getting good at stuff. >> Mhm. >> I think competence is the um is such an important thing for people like to to get good at something. It doesn't matter what it is. >> And to feel like they're getting better as well. >> And you think about like kids kids learn lots of different things. They learn, you know, how to how to ride a bike, right? So, you couldn't ride a bike and then you struggled and then you could. It's really fun to learn how to do stuff, right? And and then some people get better at it and they could do tricks and mess around or whatever. Comedy is something that there's endless amounts of tricks. So, you just keep on getting a little bit better all the time. I really like that. Um, is it Kaizen? I think is the name of the Japanese thing. Like getting very like British cycling does it really well. Getting very slight improvements, incremental improvements over time >> brings an awful lot of satisfaction. I kind of think that thing about going that's very exciting to me and then trying to put myself out of my comfort zone every 18 months or so trying to put on bigger tours or play different rooms or do it in a different way that makes me feel slightly uncomfortable. Maybe try and hold some silence and space on stage for people in a way that feels new to me. You know what else is interesting about the spiraling up or the compounding of doing things and and becoming brave at trying new things with a bigger skill set underneath? I think that uh people's sensitivity to cynicism keeps them in place and as they don't do much more than the basically zero that they're doing now, their fear of cynicism just stays the same. You need to be able to kind of get past it because there are going to be people just say, "I don't think that that's cool or that's a silly idea to try and do something new." But the fewer [ __ ] that you give, the more you become acclimatized to not giving a [ __ ] which means you give fewer [ __ ] over time, which means you can be more brave and you can be more experimental. You can take bigger swings with a bigger skill set underneath. But if people are welded in place by their fear of criticism or skepticism or cynicism, >> that means they don't get started. >> Yeah, that's a really it's a it's slightly tragic. I think worrying about what other people are thinking of you the whole time >> and they're not wanting to do I remember like mid20s I remember when I um I left my job >> and I told my friends that I want to be a comedian and I'd left my job and the reactions were really like I think Jimmy's having a breakdown >> think he's cuz obviously they didn't see this they didn't see where it ended >> they just saw the beginning of it of like going no you've got got a good job what what are you doing you lunatic and it was like I was like yo ho ho a pirates life for me and it's like seemed kind of crazy but if you'd listen to that it was that you talk about it very nicely that the the the lonely uh chapter where you kind of go you have to slightly leave who you were behind. You have to say goodbye to that and there's a grieving to that and you have to sort of >> move on to that that new phase. >> Well, there's two things. There's a a grieving of where you were and there's a fear of where you're going because you don't know that the next step has actually got any promise for you. And again, if you're in a world where you don't have an abundance mindset, which I think a lot of people don't, that so much complexity and uncertainty and chaos, what's going to happen in future? I don't know if this thing's going to go completely terribly wrong. Why would I give up a certain 5 out of 10 for an uncertain 8 out of 10? Because it might be a three out of 10 and that would make me feel really bad. And if you've got high inequality too, you can see not how high you could climb, but also how low you can fall. You're like, "Oh, [ __ ] I really don't want to fall low." that that that looks horrendous to me. >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's um uh there's two most important days. Uh the day you're born and the day you find out why. >> And the finding out why is like what what could you commit to? What could you say, one, I'm all in on this. I'm going to do this thing. I mean, I'm a big advocate of specialization. You find the thing that you enjoy that you can't stop thinking about. What's play to you and work for them? >> That's kind of where your edge is. that's going to be the thing that you're going to do, you know, better than anything else. And the the safe option is, you know, it's it's fine. You know, some people some people don't find that in work. They find that in, you know, hobbies and other pursuits. >> And I was chatting to someone recently about someone in the crowd was asking about music and saying, you know, I'm I'm a, you know, musician. Have you got any advice? And I don't know anything about music. Was like, well, if you would do it anyway, then do it. Like, it doesn't have to be the way that you make money. Doing something creative and fulfilling could be the hobby. And if it if it becomes the way you make money, well, great. But you should be it should be something that you would do anyway. >> There's an interesting relationship between discipline, motivation, and obsession. So discipline is saying I will make myself do the thing. Motivation is I want to do the thing. And obsession is I can't not do the thing. And a lot of the time when we look at somebody who on the outside appears motivated, what they're actually doing, it's just the cooled off version of a past obsession. It's this thing that they were obsessed with 20 years ago that is now just it's formed into a part of their identity. It's somebody that goes to the gym, but they were completely obsessed with. This is me. Like when I was in university, I would not go on nights out and I'd stay in and read bodybuilding.com forums and I'd get up and make sure that my protein was right and all the rest of it. And I'm like, it's [ __ ] lame at the time. But now when I go to the gym, it doesn't really take discipline to go and do it. And not superbly motivated. It just is who I am. But people are kind of serial obsessives. Some people are serial obsessives. But if you don't ever allow that obsession to sort of climb inside of you and and and really wear your life for a little while, kind of like a puppet, you don't get to benefit from all of the acred gains down the line because this obsession isn't going to last forever. It's this weird, >> but those forearms are >> alignment. This is true. These these these are going to >> The heat death of the universe is going to be gone before these finish up. Um the >> It's like It's like talking to Popeye. >> That's true. Yeah. But no spinach. The uh >> the problem I think that people come up against is that if you don't allow if you're not prepared to let that obsession kind of really really get inside of you and drive you forward, you miss out on this like beautiful opportunity. Like lots of people go their entire life without having an obsession that's worth anything. And sometimes people can become obsessed with [ __ ] that they really shouldn't be, right? Which is the politics, porn, your ex, gambling, video games, stuff like that. Video games can be quite fun. >> But if you're the sort of person that is consistently becoming obsessed with stuff, like that's good. I think that you really should allow that to embrace your life for a period because it's this it's this odd alignment of like motivation and opportunity and skill set and timing and life situation. It's all of this [ __ ] kind of comes into alignment in one go and then this weird kind of magic. I don't think you can engineer obsession particularly well. You can force discipline, right? Which is why people love it. People are obsessed with discipline because if you're prepared to pay the price, >> it's always there, >> right? >> Motivation is halfway house. You can kind of engineer it a little bit. Maybe you start to spend a lot of time around other people who do the same sort of thing. >> A bit of a feedback loop, I think, >> to a degree. You can have some social pressure. Maybe you can listen to your favorite playlist, you know, get yourself amped up. That motivation's halfway between the two, but obsession you can't really engineer. And that means that when it comes along, it's got a a a certain sort of magical quality to it. and it's temporary. It is going to leave. You're not obsessed by the same things. Typically, most people aren't obsessed at 50 by the same stuff that they were at 30. And that I think means, okay, if I'm going to >> the people that are you've heard of, correct? Because >> I think the people the people that have got that like because again, it's the compound interest. They've really like that really builds up over time. If you can keep doing that thing, if you're still interested in that thing, >> it's the freest discipline and motivation that you're ever going to get. Right? I can't not do the thing. I It's what I think about when I go to the toilet. It's what I think about when I fall asleep at night. It's what I think about when I'm eating my lunch. It's what I think about when I'm waiting in line to get into the airport. All of every single part of your life is cohesing to get you toward this thing. And that's [ __ ] cool. And I don't know we we have society has a really bad relationship I think with obsession because it comes laden with a lot of baggage that no people either don't understand it or they fear it. Well I guess it's it's linked to addiction. >> You know I think people with addictive personalities uh never really get over the addiction. They just get addicted to something else. Yeah. >> So, some of my best friends that are in, you know, a would have been addicted to the gym afterwards or addicted to eating right or addicted to shopping, whatever the next thing that comes along is, but they'll be addicted to it. They It's compulsive behavior. But if you can direct that compulsive behavior to something that builds and and grows and feeds back, then fantastic. >> That's the problem solving brain thing again, right? It's like give yourself good problems to solve. Give yourself an obsession that's worth something. And again, you can't generate all of them, but I think you can you can kind of help to to guide yourself. So, yeah, I just that really is the the freest way to become great. And it's your insight around like do what feels like play to you but looks like work to everyone else. The boss line if you can manage to I don't know find something that is positive some and pro-social and isn't going to destroy you or the world around you like that. Just let it let it [ __ ] weigh you for a bit. >> Yeah. As long as it's not fentinel, great. Yeah. Well, you know, there's tran now, which is like fentinol's fentinol. They they just keep on releasing new versions that are more powerful at all. >> I think fentinel really scares me. I think, you know, a drug is powerful if if you're using heroin to take the edge off it. [laughter] >> I'm going to come down. >> This is a bit strong. I might put some heroin in this. Like, okay, >> I cut my fentinel with heroin >> enough now. Yeah. There's a there's a there's an argument that the fentinyl crisis is uh is China's revenge for the opium wars. >> What were the opium wars? cuz I've heard this but I don't know what the opium was. >> It's when uh the British went to uh China and forced them to trade with us and we sold them a bunch of opium. That's what that's what >> fentanyl is mostly landing in America. >> Yeah. >> So the British started it and the Americans are paying the price >> on the receiving end of it. >> Yeah. But I can I can definitely see a connection. We are we are Greece to America's Rome. >> Right. Right. >> You know, we're kind of part of the same thing really. I mean I know they had the War of Independence, but come on. >> A lot's coming over the southern border through Mexico. Yeah, >> the fentinel. >> Crazy. >> Yeah, I I've seen some videos. There's this area in Philadelphia, I think, uh where like constantly YouTubers are going and filming the these like it's skid skid row. >> It's so intense. >> No, I've seen it in some in some cities around America. It's really uh it's >> Well, I mean, look, you know what happened that we we shut down all the asylums in the 80s because we saw one floor of the cuckoo's nest and we decided asylums were terrible places. we didn't run out of crazy people. >> You know, there's a lot of crazy people out there. So, I think that thing of like going, you know, the homelessness problem is ultimately a, you know, a drugs, an addiction problem and uh and and a problem with um mental health. And we need to treat that and and take it very seriously rather than, you know, it's you know, building new houses is a part of that, but it's a very small part of it. >> Well, the safety net in America doesn't sweep people up in the same way as it does in the UK. I don't see in the UK the same kind of shuffly shouty at the sky clutching of >> there's still there's still too much of it there still I mean it's like it's really it feels like a um there's other places you go I mean I travel maybe 50 countries around the world on tour and you become very aware of the it's my favorite quote William Gibson the sci-fi writer from Canada said the future is here but it's not evenly distributed >> I think the more you travel around the world you see how different places deal with different problems you sort of go oh right It's kind of like we could have a utopia if we took all the elements from all these different places. >> It's like having the perfect outfit, but you'd have to go to 55 different stores. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Where's had the least intense problems with homelessness that you've been to? >> Well, I think Lisbon really turned it around cuz Lisbon was one of the roughest towns in the world. Lisbon, Portugal was one of the roughest towns. Poor town in Portugal was really rough. Big heroin problem. And they um they legalized drugs. But that's only half the story. It's a very small bit of the story. So, they legalized drugs, but they basically said, "We're going to ring fence the money we spend fighting the drugs war, and we're going to spend all that money on rehabilitation and education and uh some housing." So, they they basically took that money, legalized drugs, and then went, "Okay, anyone that wants to get off drugs, you come here. Anyone that needs to be housed, you go here. Anyone." And they basically solved the problem. They ended up with very few people on heroin. um that that they can get from a pharmacy. >> And the crime rate obviously falls off a cliff when you take illegal drugs out of the situation because people don't have to feed their habit and they don't petty crime goes goes down massively. >> Presumably organized crime as well also has the ass pulled out a bit. >> Yeah. A lot of it. So it's that thing where you go that kind of solved the problem. I think it's slightly creeping back a little bit now because the ring fencing that money you can do for a certain amount of time but then politics gets in the way and people go actually we need that money for something else >> and you you take for granted the progress that's been made. >> Sure. So, the problem creeps up again, but the idea of going there's always going to be, you know, uh a problem around that. We're going to need to fight that. >> It's kind of like the uh strong men make good times, but the equivalent for government in relationship to >> Well, it's like fence. They forget why they're spending that money on that thing. >> It only happened like 10 years ago. >> Yeah. 15 years. Yeah. >> It's um Yeah, it's not. >> Yeah. It's it's interesting those kind of problems that are solved. I mean, I've got quite I've got quite spicy views on drugs, right? Here's my here's my take on marijuana. Do you want to hear my hot take on marijuana? Bring it up. >> Okay. I think it should be illegal for the under 30s, right? Cuz it's it's kind of the opposite of a performance-enhancing drug. It's a performance-inhibiting drug. It takes away people's drive and ambition. And in those kind of, you know, early mid20s years when people really need to have that drive because you're out of the kind of school system and on your own and you got to be a selfarter and you it's it's, you know, self assignment, right? So band 30 to 50, it should be legal. Okay? You're a grown-up. You you make a decision as to what you want to do, what you want to put in your body. 50 and above mandatory and not because I think it's a good drug. I don't think it's a good drug, but I think it would it would redistribute the wealth to the young because old people would be slightly high and out of it. >> Right. Okay. So, you're going to pharmacologically [ __ ] the people that are old. Yes. And make the playing field more even for the people that are coming up. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. But I'm down. I'm down. I hate wheat. It does not It does not agree with me at all. But, uh, yeah, I think it's a an interesting theory. I I on the Portugal thing, I really get the sense that the more we try to legislate our way through things, those are kind of like the one good article per hourong doom scroll on X insights that encourage people to keep chasing red tape. And he's like, "Ah, but what about that one thing that went well and therefore we just add bureaucracy and add bureaucracy and add bureaucracy?" I would be fascinated to know what the relationship between organized crime and the government is. It's one of those like nationwide slapdowns that completely cut off at the knees an entire universe of like pretty dangerous, pretty nasty guys who are all trying to like cartel their way to to to wealth. But it is a single move that would be able to basically put a huge industry of people out of business. They're all just in an underworld as opposed to listed on the Footsie 500. There must be so much pressure between a government and then can you imagine if you're part of some organized crime group how many different favors you're going to call in to try and not get this thing passed. It's going to stop your entire business. I don't know. I I feel like I'm writing a new Tom Hardy series. >> I like the idea though of the the cartels getting getting a lobby group together to go we can't have drugs. >> You're putting us out of business. >> This would be terrible for our business plan. >> Exactly. Think about the gang. What do you think? What are you thinking about the gang? The year on year is going to fall behind. >> Yeah. Yeah, I I I I like what you're saying though about young people really need to use that drive and it's kind of like the obsession thing that a lot of the time people talk about nobody is coming to save you as a line, but nobody is coming to save you also implies that nobody's coming to stop you. >> Well, yeah. And nobody cares more than you. I think that thing about, you know, empathetically, you you want to have there be a great safety net for everyone, right? you you want there to be universal basic income which essentially we sort of have in the UK under the benefit system there's there's a version of that where you know you'll get something from the state and you'll be you'll be okay you won't go hungry uh we hope um but the idea of going the universal basic income is a bit too close to we don't need you >> you know and I worry about that I worry about purpose being one of the key things of like if you take uh Morgan Hel has a great um he's got great equations Morgan Hel he's got this great equation on happiness being uh it's um freedom and purpose. >> If you have those two, you're pretty much on you're on a good road cuz everyone wants there to be benefits available for everyone, right? Everyone wants there to be a um a safety net, but no one think about it, no one wants that for their kids. No one looks at their newborn and goes, "Oh, wow. I hope he hope he gets really great benefits." >> You want him to have uh or her to have a fulfilling life where they they go out and they they do something and they add value to society. That's what we want. >> It is an interesting like challenge, I suppose, where we want to be able to support people. We've got this future of automation coming through. We know that purpose is important, but if you clear off all of the bottom levels of Mazo's hierarchy of needs, which was all that anybody was obsessed by for almost all of human history. But self-actualization, you you asking the question, am I self-actualizing? Is actually an indication that you're in a really wonderful position across the expanse of human history. Yeah, >> but where do I get my next meal from? >> I think it's a false read though on the I think in liberal democracy we've oversold for the individual um the liberal bit and the demos is underutilized. So there's not enough connection between people. So the idea of like going it's the um the the the family and the friends and the community beyond that. So it's it's that smaller level stuff those connections is what people are I think missing. Um so I I do think that kind of it's the safety security you know colorific you want to take care of the basics for everyone you know education and healthcare and uh you know m making sure everyone's okay to a level and then you want to give them the you want it to be abundance. You want it to be that everyone can have an exciting fun time. And you want that for your kids. And if you want that for your kids, you want it for everyone. >> Yeah. Yeah. The intergenerational competition theory is I never even thought about it before, but what you said earlier on, you want your kids to do better than you did. And also your kids want to do better than you did. >> Yeah. >> But that means that there is this like embedded growth obligation that everything always needs to be getting better all of the time. >> Well, there's another way of again Morgan Hel is such a genius writer. He's wonderful. But he has this idea of going there's uh the biggest inflation in the world is not currency inflation. It's expectation inflation. But there's another word for expectation inflation. We expect so much more than we did in the 1970s, right? I remember the ' 70s. It was [ __ ] And it's so much better now. But the expectation is so much higher than it's ever been. But the other name for expectation inflation is progress. >> That's what progress looks like. >> You just factor in all the stuff that's there and you go, "Yeah, and we want more." And that's a good thing ultimately. I mean, if you look at it on a global scale as well, you go if you care about humanity as a whole, like getting everyone up to our level would be an incredible achievement. You know, that's the the biggest things in the world are not talked about. Like the the worst things in the world, the easy fixes that we just ignore because they're not sexy. >> Like burning burning biomass kills 3 million people a year. that's burning like uh wooden people and stuff inside inside homes. >> It kills three million people a year >> from asphixxiation. >> Yeah. Well, it's it's cancer, >> right? >> It's it's horribly bad for people. Smoking is a much bigger problem than we think it is because we've solved it here. Solved it in America and and kind of the English speaking world really. >> But in South America and Africa and Asia, it's smoking is a huge problem and it's so easy to fix. We could just the playbook is there. We know exactly what to do. But we don't. >> So that's the future being distributed to a different area from our future to theirs. >> Like I think it's Peter Singer is is very good on this stuff. The uh Oh no. Um is it Derek Derek Parett's got really good things on like the the debt that we owe to future people and to geographically, you know, dispersed people. >> The idea that we should care about that stuff at least. >> I had William McCascal on the show. He's the long- termism guy, what we owe the future. And um I f I think he was the youngest philosophy professor long the youngest tenure philosophy professor in the world William and uh anyway he's he's talking about yeah what we owe future generations but >> people don't really think about that in quite the same way they think about >> it's odd that thing of like cuz you go like net zero is a really good example of that of like going well we have to uh decrease our reliance on fossil fuels but in the short term like that's very very difficult to and it affects the poor um so the idea of going well that should be an aim in like 25 years but you go but you have to start building the nuclear plants now >> in order to make that happen and then you could have that eventuality that that'd be great but it takes statesmen to look on those time scales >> and everybody just wants to get elected for their next four-year term or whatever it is >> yeah and it's that thing of like going you know what you know Britain I think uh could could put his feet up now in terms of going it's had a big effect on the world. But the idea of being a an example to other nations of how to do that, that would be the flex. That would be the thing to do >> to go to get there before anyone else because you go, "Well, we built the plants, so in 25 years we look like geniuses." And also, if you get energy down to essentially zero cost, how many businesses would that attract to to the UK? >> When it comes to culture, British culture, what do you wish more British people understood or knew? >> What culturally? >> Yeah. Like I I for me the British culture has an awful lot of charm to it, but there's some kind of like lethal poisons thrown in with it. Like the tall poppy syndrome is one of them. The sense of a maybe a lack of mobility, the quite oified class system that in the US what somebody earns kind of determines their yeah >> current level of class, but in the UK it's where you went to school or it's your accent. Is there something that you wish more British people sort of if you could uh inject something into British culture, what would it be? >> I think it'd be uh I think there's a I think it's oinkophobia is the fancy term. It's the hatred of one's own culture. >> I think that people need to take a bit more pride in that. You know, it's not immediately apparent that a place without a past has a future. And I think having that shared um belief in what what we've done in the past, I mean, it's you know, we beat the Nazis and we ended slavery. It's not nothing. It's it's it's big. and going and the English language is a beautiful thing. I mean, it's really uh George Max's got a good line on this on like if you had top trump cards for Great Britain and you go, well, name a thing. Okay, music, the Beatles. Okay, physics. All right, Steven Hawin, you know, biology. Okay, well, Tim Berners Leaf for the internet. What? We've got lots and lots of kind of we've done great things and we continue to punch above our weight and people should take some pride in that. I think taking some pride in where you're from is is quite an important thing >> and the local communities are kind of there's there's that kind of at a lower level. I think people like where they're from. They have a sense of that. >> Heck yeah. Jimmy Carr, ladies and gentlemen. Jimmy, love you. Appreciate you coming for coming through. >> No, I I really enjoy I think you know you're you're right. I think coming on this show and doing this kind of thing has really changed me as a as a performer. It's been really incredibly valuable to me >> in the right direction. >> Yeah. [laughter] B they'll decide. Look at the comment section. >> Till next time. >> Bye everybody. >> Dude. Yes. >> Is that right? >> Yes. >> Best. Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, YouTube knows who you are deeply. 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