Welcoming Blind and Low Vision Visitors with the New Accessible Big Astronomy Kit

out later got it welcome everyone I think you're in the right place we have an exciting presentation for you today my name is Vivian white and we'll be welcoming Teresa summer here in just a minute who's going to be really leading this but we're having some technical difficulties so we're gonna roll with it um I want to welcome you to the big astronomy uh webinar for a brand new toolkit that we have just sent to many of you this is for working with Blind and Visually Impaired visitors and these um well you'll hear a lot about all of these um pieces of the toolkit in just a second let me see if I can advance momento let's see there we go this is the overview we'll just do a few introductions we have a lot of people who helped to make this happen um hopefully Teresa will be back in time for the best practices um and then we're going to share some of our activities that we created for this toolkit and if you have questions I think maybe if you could just stick them in the chat as we go along and Brian will you help with that one help us kind of field some of these questions thank you so much all right um welcome um we are also waiting for one other person to join us who is Ken Quinn who has been an amazing resource for this um toolkit and I also want to mention that Noreen Grace is on here and we're so happy to have you on here because you were part of the inspiration for this toolkit as well Noreen um does a lot of things let's see you've got uh I've got many of her books here on my shelf behind me everyone's universe and a lot of others that she has done Noreen's been working with the blind in low vision Community for a long time um creating great astronomy activities and planetarium activities so welcome Noreen and thanks for being a part of this um we have one other webinar that we have done before Noreen had created had taken some of the original toolkit activities that I'll show you in a minute and created some do-it-yourself versions of those for working with people with visual impairments and um and we have taken some of what she's done and some new ideas and created a physical toolkit that we have mailed out to a lot of you so I know not everyone has gotten them yet because we just sent them out last week but we will be you should be getting them very soon if you have signed up for them and if you haven't give us a minute and there's a place to sign up for them um we'll show you how to do that so can um uh Brian is Canon yet yes but then right after you said his name hi oh and Theresa's back okay good yes and I think I should be good yes I can hear I had some technical difficulties everyone we can so it's great to see everyone and and welcome if I missed that part it's go right ahead I'm gonna let you take over Theresa because you know what you're doing okay and um yeah it's great to see you all and thanks so much for joining us for this uh webinar and welcoming blind and low vision folks to your Museum or astronomy event and we are going to talk a little bit um Vivian did you do the overview of the talk and this is this is your section Vivian sorry about that I get it sorry I'm with you okay give me one second let's see if that works now oh there we are okay yeah I did do the overview very quickly before you got here great so uh Ken maybe we should welcome Ken hi Ken welcome hi Vivia thanks glad to be here great to have you here um I'll do a quick uh bit of uh Ken's got his whole section but maybe I'll do a quick introduction Ken actually maybe I'll let you do your introduction Ken I think that would be good if we all did our own intros all righty um hello everyone my name is Ken Quinn I live in Western Pennsylvania specifically in Erie Pennsylvania um and I live with my wife and three children been making astronomy um accessible to all included in Blind and Visually Impaired communities for over the last 22 years and working in conjunction with aui as well as NASA to make those astronomy limit areas accessible over the last 22 years and I just want to say that can you've been an amazing part of our team and we couldn't have done half of this without you um so thanks for all of your support and input and oh you're what you're welcome and I appreciate that yeah and I'm Theresa summer and I work here at the Astronomical Society of the Pacific I've been here for seven years now and I also have worked in a lot of planetariums and museums and so some of you I know from that realm and others of you I know from ASP but it is good to see everyone um Vivian do you want to do your own intro sure I'll do a quick one on Vivian white I am the director of free choice learning at the Astronomical Society of the Pacific and um and I am just thrilled to get to work with Ken and Teresa and Noreen and lots of other people who have been so helpful on this this is an exciting new area for us to explore at the Astronomical Society of the Pacific so um yeah it's great to be here I think I'll just launch right into it so that you all know what we're doing the big astronomy [Music] grant that we got from the National Science Foundation was to to create a planetarium show all about the big telescopes that are located in Chile and talk some about why we invest so much money in astronomy in Chile in particular we created a well I shouldn't say we the California Academy of Sciences created an amazing planetarium show that won lots of awards and it was created in both English and Spanish which has been a nice way to distribute it more widely it's also been translated into quite a few other languages and this is available for free in the 2K version if you're a planetarian you can also get them in the 4K version you just have to pay for the hard drive that we used to send it to you so this is a really lovely resource and was released right in March of 2020 which you can imagine is not the best time timing for releasing a planetarium show because not a lot of people were in planetariums at that exact moment we had other things on our minds but luckily it was part of a big wide Suite of materials and Not only was there the show but we had Live Events and those went spectacularly well during um when we were all kind of working from home as much as we could but a lot of the museums were closed and they were doing online activities we had a lot of live events that happened with people who were from Chile who could talk to us about what was going on there um we also the ASP the Astronomical Society of the Pacific came in and we created some Hands-On toolkits which again were not ideal during a pandemic but so we translated some of that into online learning um and I'll show you where to find all of that in a minute we're doing a lot of cool research on um on well what started was going to be a big Suite of activities but now it's on how we learned what we learned during the pandemic turns out so that's great we're presenting that Abrams Planetarium and Shannon schmull or and her team are doing quite a bit of cool research on that so that's exciting and this is all funded by the National Science Foundation under the auspices of the um Associated universities Inc aui and Aura and norlab now so um two of the big things that came out of it besides the planetarium show are an educator guide and an informal tool kit and this informal toolkit has been the inspiration for what we're going to show you today um the initial toolkit was really so much fun to make and it had some pretty cool goals uh to it so we the the planetarium show talks a lot about um all the people that it takes to do big astronomy so it takes everyone from driving you know the people who drive the big trucks that move the the detectors all the way through to um you know it also takes a full kitchen of people and it takes a lot of coders and a lots of um technicians and things like that so we we highlighted a lot of the different jobs that it took to uh to do big astronomy and so that was one of our main goals and so we have that there you can see the astronomy there's space for everyone talks about a lot of the different jobs um that and we have a suite of about uh seven activities that came with the original toolkit which has been really fun and distributed to amateur astronomy clubs and museums around the world um you can get to that at bit.ly Big Astro or with that QR code there that should get you to everything you need to know um oops let's see nope not gonna do that either oh there we go um and then I was telling you Noreen is here and she helped us create some really lovely um materials that helped to visualize our galaxy and and other things for those visitors that were blind and had low vision so these are tactile images that are created kind of a do-it-yourself version of some of these activities the first top left you'll see we have uh showing some of the different constellations there and legends in the sky that we've created uh that we've talked about from around the world this was one of the original activities that had been um then used uh has been modified for use with um those with low vision and who cannot see um and then also you'll see some where some of these have gone for our newest toolkit and I'll show you those in just a second so a big shout out to Noreen these were really fun and amazing and we have tested them in many many places with many people and I think Teresa is going to talk about that in a second um oh this is just what I wanted to tell you the learning goals for the main toolkit where of course teamwork as I just talked about a second ago also why we put the telescopes in Chile because it's dry and High and um has a great infrastructure um and lots and lots of space for um placing large telescopes in great locations and also that the last goal there would be that we take information in many different forms from all different wavelengths of light and also even detecting with gravitational waves and things like that so multi-messenger is what they call that approach to astronomy so oh last but not least and this is um these are some funny pictures not what I plan to put up there but this was a part of um Chile also uh this is honoring some indigenous knowledge and just talking about how astronomy has got a cultural heritage to it that we all share and what um that has meant to us over the years and currently okay so I think with that all oh maybe just talk about Community as the astronomy Community today we have created this kit um in preparation for the Community Day April 29th but you can celebrate all month of April um we encourage you to share this kit and the original kit with your audiences if you'd like to sign up on bigastronomy.org you can um you can be entered to win some cool telescopes you will also get your events posted they're going to do lots of splashy pages about it and share with everyone what's going on so I encourage you to participate in community day or Community month all April if you go to the main website you will find information on that and with that I will stop talking and pass it back thanks Viv um just one one thing about Community day that I wanted to mention is that you know with everything happening in March of 2020 this is a great opportunity to sort of remind folks of this amazing resource and you can get the show for free um you can either have it for your planetarium or for your flat screen or whatever you use in your Museum or event okay so just moving on to the main portion of the talkers we're going to talk about best practices and that's for welcoming low vision and blind individuals to your Museum and so I just wanted to mention that there's 1.3 million legally blind people in the U.S and at one point I'm sorry 12 million people who have visual damage in their eyes um and so there's a large population of the U.S that we would like to Welcome to our events and so I just wanted to point that out before I turn it over to Ken who is going to talk specifically about some of the best practices sorry Teresa thank you much um do you happen to have access to slides if you could tell me what's on that first one there I don't have access to it all my texts not working today for some reason uh that's the text and Screen readers one okay um so screen readers are used by all Blind and Visually Impaired individuals to access any printed information that comes across pretty much any computerized device whether it be a tablet a cell phone or a computer device um it reads what shows up there so all text all pictures however if pictures aren't labeled um it will just tell us a graphic number so if you don't have your pictures labeled it will say Graphics 6 trillion 534 292. um if you know what graphic numbers means that gives you at least a little bit of information but it really doesn't give you the extent of what you're viewing for more information about that I would suggest contacting your web designers and they'd be able to best assist you with how to label those also there are links in the toolkit that you can go to that will show you best practices on how to do that yeah this whole best practices section is going to really be a lot about um go and read the best practices section that came with the kit because there are links to different accessibility tools that can help you you see um it just points out specifically what's what's needs to be adjusted for to make your website more accessible correct and if people have heard of alternate text or alt text before what I just previously spoke about is totally different than alt text um so I would definitely take a look at the toolkit for that no and I've just put in there Graphics need to be labeled like the buttons that you push to go to a certain um page or something that also needs to be labeled which I didn't um I haven't thought about before even if it's a button for like your cart or submit button if you have a form for a sign up for a field trip or something like that anything that you would visually see needs to be labeled exactly and we're going to make these slides available and we're also recording this so you'll have lots of opportunities to check this out Vivian you want to go to the next slide which is about setting up the space when you're having an event um yep so setting up the spaces crucial if you're going to have um stuff in your facility that you're going to want the participants to manipulate and especially if they're on table have them in tray so they can't roll around when you foreign are talking to a person who's visually impaired or blind you always want to refer to the face of a clock when referring to where things are placed on that tray for example the clay is in the upper right hand corner your string is at six o'clock every single person that's blind or visually impaired has been oriented to the face clock and we use that in orientation of multiple things throughout our day so we're very familiar with it um also if you have signage or anything that you want them to know about you know tell them where it's at just don't say over there give specific directions go five feet and then turn right and you'll find it approximately five feet up on the wall let's go to the next slide Vivian go ahead you just did a little about the etiquette um um so other other types of etiquette would be always to talk to the person who's visually impaired or blind directly don't talk to their friend or whoever might be with them um they can hear you they just can't see you um and they're personally able to communicate and tell you your their needs that they need to when you come into a room say you know Mr Jones hi I'm you know Janet the front desk officer how can I help you if you have to leave for some reason let them know that you're leaving and when you come back let them know that you're back great next slide this one is about how do you recognize a blind person when you're there in your Museum or event do we have any other bullet points on that Teresa yeah we have uh Kane and guide dog glasses and ifog um so not every single blind or visually impaired person will look the same um as the world is an individual so as the Blind and Visually Impaired community um if somebody is standing there without a cane or a guide dog it's a possibility that they are just visually impaired um they may need to walk up to an item to see it closely but that's maybe all the need that they need other times they might be wearing glasses due to the fact that they have some eye shadowing issues or issues with what's called photophobia or light fatigue um so you know just take that into account if you are seeing someone that's like that also um you know a real big indicator of somebody who's standing there with a guard dog or a cane you never want to grab a person's cane out of their hand or even touch the cane while they're using it and same thing goes with the guide dog you never want to touch them while they're working even if they're just standing there still a good rule of thumb is if a guide dog and this goes for any type of service dog if they have a harness on they are working and should be considered working and ignored best rule of thumb is to ask the Handler before you touch their dog because the dog in the Handler is a team they both rely on each other I'm just thinking as if from the visually impaired perspective and the guide dog is their eyes so would you like somebody to come up and touch your eyes as you're walking down the center of a street I can assume you probably wouldn't so it's kind of the same same thought process for the visually impaired and our guide dogs thanks and then um you wanted to talk about Universal Design a little bit yeah um when setting up your locations and also your exhibits um I would use Universal Design principles so just when we talk about making a facility universally designed for all to be able to use same thing goes to with regards to setting up interactive stations or anything that you're going to have in your exhibit so best thing is to look at your exhibit look at what you want to have come out of that per the participants and then it's like can everybody do this um and if somebody can't see can they do that and I've had people before say well how can I do that I don't know any tasks or tools or how you know every single blind person can access this and I say to them okay well if you if you never knew what you were coming up to and you came up to it with your eyes totally closed would you be able to do this and sometimes they say yes sometimes they say no and when they say no then they go back to their drawing board and they figure out how could I do this if I couldn't see it so that is just one example of a Universal Design thanks and then um it's specific for astronomy say you're going to do a presentation about the Big Dipper and you had a visually impaired person come into your Dome you could simply take a paper plate in with either a drill bit attached to a drill or even just a nail poke some holes in the paper plate and they could at least feel a Big Dipper and follow along with your presentation thanks you also want to talk to about large print and brown whenever possible have large print and Braille available just as you would have regular documentation available for the public if you had the ability to have it on hand you should large print is considered no less than 18 point font um and Braille is just a standard standard Braille font there's actually no font like there is in print for Braille there's something called the unified English brow code which everything nowadays is produced in um there used to be multiple codes but that went out the window about I believe roughly five years ago now so now everything's in unified English braille code and every single blind originally impaired person that reads Braille is able to understand it and read it and it kind of goes back to that thought process of Universal Design so if we're going to have it in print for the Normal public to read and access we should have it also in large print Edinburgh thanks we were audio descriptions but I just put the link in there because I think that that's something that would be great for you to explore on your own but um unless you want to do it now again I feel like we've had a lot of technical difficulties and I don't want to be if you if you think we could pull it off I'd be able to do it now but I still want to pose the question I'd be um willing to receive um responses is why is audio description um in media important would you guys like to answer that in the chat why you think that um this description audio description is media is important and I'll let's just know because I haven't heard anything come across the chat yet but hmm and we'll put some of those samples in the chat as well give us just a second the question Kenya said was why do you think it's important all right Myra said that people need to follow a visual narrative as well yeah and Mary says to make get things more accessible for everyone Kim mentions to be inclusive yeah all good points um mainly because what you don't get to see um basically you lose a lot out on so it does add context to the dialogue like one person just stated in the chat but it gives you what you're missing visually just think if you were watching your movie or a show that you'd like to watch on TV all the visual cues and actions that happen if you could not see that you would miss out on it oftentimes changes the meaning of what you're hearing both verbally as well as the sound effects so wherever it's possible to do so you should always have audio description I know that's not always possible everywhere but there are ways to do it for a very inexpensive as well also kind of going on that same hand wherever it's possible and probable it's always good practice to have closed captioning and when possible live um sign language available and Noreen I just uh watched your other presentation about um accessibility and breast best practices and I thought if you had if you wanted to jump in you did a great description of um the Big Dipper that you might use while you're in the planetarium and sort of doing in the live sections of your show just um describing things visually instead of just pointing with the pointer um to say and I'm gonna paraphrase this but Noreen like I said if you're you're welcome to join in um that you want to say that there are seven stars and that they make the shape of a ice cream scoop where there's a scoop on the four stars um on the bottom and then that there's a handle that is going those made up of three stars and um that it's in this North portion of the sky since Maureen's not jumping in that's that's about the best as I can remember um yeah I want to say you hit the nail on the head right there Teresa um more desperative than pointing and saying you know star a b c and d and actually being really descriptive yeah it's kind of the same thing with don't say over there right you want to win it right you know um so I think that that can be a big help that we can do for free in our planetarium shows at most places have live segments so no Noreen just put in the chat that pictorial descriptions help everyone I definitely would agree with that um think about if you're doing a presentation for you know school-age kids preschool kindergarten first grade you're going to relate whatever they're seeing in the night sky to something that they're they already know exactly um and we have one last slide about the best practices and I'm not sure if um we said this in the beginning but um if you have questions put them in the chat jump on let us know um because there's a lot of different sections we're going to be covering um but this just says not all people who are blind and visually impaired are the same so um there's a lot of individual um differences as Ken was saying between people who are legally blind and people who have impairment and um it's best to just ask the person yeah yeah best of just asking you know there's a difference too between legally blind and totally blind um so pretty much anybody who wears glasses um to an extent depending on what their vision is without classes could be labeled as legally blind um totally blind normally means you have no vision or very little usable vision and sometimes no vision at all with the exception of only light perception thank you was there anything else you wanted to add uh no I think we covered it covered it all um you know open for questions of course great um so I'll just keep looking in the chat but I'm going to move on to the activities that are in the actual kit uh here's a picture of some of them in front of you we're going to talk about three activities um one is called In a Different Light which is about that multi-wavelength Spectrum there's losing the night which is about light pollution and why telescopes are in Chile and then Legends in the sky is about um this the constellations and the cultural connections that different people have with the sky and so um if you want to go to the next slide there's a couple of commonalities that each activity has if you look there's like a a big print guide to each for the visitor that anyone can read and we do big prints so that low vision folks can see it there's also a separate piece that's not in this picture but everyone has a presenter information so that's specifically looking at um the tips that you can use to share this information and then I'm going to show the materials as well next Theresa can I um jump in here for one question one moment I saw a question come through the chat um the differences between I believe it was between all texts and um labels is that all text describes the major things that are in a picture so for example if you had a picture that showed a dusk with Helen Keller in it her teacher Ann Sullivan sitting next to it a bunch of stuff on her desk and what they were wearing you wouldn't want to put that whole description into the alternate text it's a um total overload for the screen reader to read for the blind or visually impaired person to listen to and comprehend so you want to put in the major bullet points so for that example you'd put in um you know and Sullivan and her student you could even name her student if you wanted to sitting at a desk um along with and you could put several the items that were listed on the desk for example a typewriter and pen so then with labeling your website you would go a different route best practices to talk to your web designer but it's actually labeling buttons and pictures that are on there that have an actual name to them so for example it'd be cart um submit different buttons like that so that's the main differences between that and ALT text thanks and if you um find if you have a question that pops up also that like after about best practices we are going to have time at the questions and for questions at the end so I just wanted to let you know there's also a I want to mention that uh the Vivian put in the chat that there's a we did 30 point for these activities it um it limits the information that you can put which is actually kind of a neat feature in a way because you really want to really brings your focus down to what you want to communicate um and I think that that's a way that um doing accessible activities are beneficial for everyone because it really helps you hone in on the messages you want to share so um as we get into this activity in a different light I want to talk about the types of light um I'm sure you all know about them but like the wavelength and electromagnetic spectrum are complex topics so we just use types of light in this activity and I just want you to be able to judge it for your audience um this is you know geared towards families and and younger kids but you never know what people are interested in learning right um the questions that we ask are also about everyday use of different types of light like microwaves or for cooking food not specialized use but uh as I said you know your audience best so [Music] um and then I want to encourage you of course you probably know this already but asking questions is a great way to get people to talk about what they know and to find out there um level of sophistication so what we start the activity with is just asking have you heard about the types of visible of light beyond the visible and you could probably read because it's such a big print that even in this picture you can see what we said next page please next slide yeah um so the goals of this are just that there's many different types of light and the visible spectrum is just a small part and you can read the rest of them but I wanted to show you um this image which also Vivian showed because it was one of the activities that Noreen shared um some ideas about how to make it more accessible and we ended up using a lot of those to make what we call a thermoform so you'll be seeing this if you haven't already gotten the kit you'll be seeing it shortly but this is the different information and so I'm gonna just quickly change over my camera I hope that this works and we don't have too much issues but we'll see um it looks like you might still have your background on Theresa oh there you go oh there we go great thank you still let's see if that works a little bit it's kind of foggy so let me see if I still have the Blurred background there you go that looks so this is the visual image this comes with the kit and it has the different information from the different telescopes Alma which is the radio waves and is mentioned in the show and has a because it's based in Chile and then Hubble which is visible of course and then following the X-ray is from Chandra and so you can see that each of these different telescope images make a complete image that has the information from the different wavelengths and that's what we want to get across is that each type of light can give us new information about our universe so this is a translation that we did into these thermal forms and so if you look at this this is the key and one thing that you should know about this activity is that Braille is always on the top so this information on the top should um is like saying here's a key um and it's about um it's about different textures and so each of these different textures represents a different telescope this one here that's sort of a little bit bumpy as a image of the alma telescope and then there is the Hubble visible and the um kind of mesh one that represents the x-rays and so we're going to just scoot over to the other one which is the compilation image so again braille's always on the top and then here you can see the completed image that has when you feel it you can feel the different levels from each radio telescope from the um visible and x-ray so it's a tactile um information that you can share so I'm just gonna put these here in case anybody has any questions about those and also I'm going to switch back to the other camera okay so we're back um next slide Vivian I think this one is for you I think so too okay excellent so um uh thank you so much if you don't have these in front of you you can create them yourself we do we did um work with Noreen and she helped us create um the the version of the do-it-yourself version so if you don't have the tactiles in front of you you can also make it yourself and we have all that up on line we'll put that link in the chat again um all right but this one we actually took um we great minds think alike because Teresa and I had been working on an activity testing with some local um audiences on light pollution and one of the themes in the toolkit was understanding um why dark skies are better for seeing the night sky and um so this turns out there was also I well you can see it right there but um the third the solar system exploration research virtual Institute um Community had been putting together this exact book which was very much like what we wanted to do it was written and edited by David Hurd and Cass Runyan and Joseph minnifra and Ken our very own Ken so the four of them worked together to create this really cool tactile version of urban versus rural skies and um we simply added those initial sheets you can use to help present it in the planetarium or Museum so in the same way that we had um those sheets the public facing sheets for the first activity we also had them for this one let's see uh and this was our original one that we went from City Skies where there are very few stars in this case this is Orion for those of you who know this constellation to a Suburban Sky to a rural sky and how much more detail you can see how many more of these guys of these stars that you can see in a rural Sky um uh but this one so the book that is the light pollution book has not just Orion but in there so you can use it all year long in the northern hemisphere I think there's somebody who's got some noise coming through um if one of y'all could help with that that'd be awesome um so this was just a a new write-up using a very cool new resource that's also available so thank you so much David Hurd and team uh for creating this it's been a really fabulous resource so um yeah those are the basics for that um I think I'm going to let you go on to the next one Teresa which is the last of the three activities that we used now we're going through these pretty quick so again if you have questions just jump on and let us know and so um Legends in the sky is the one that's really about how humans have Through the Ages sat around the campfire looked at the sky and saw and saw the sky and made meaning in it so that's kind of the big takeaway we also have that constellations are made up of a group of stars that are form a pattern that's our uh that's a science standard and also it's a a kind of astronomy um from the Greeks or uh classical definition of constellation this activity expands that definition a little bit next slide and so a couple of notes that I want to share and then I'll show you the image the activity a little bit on the other camera but um one of the things that actually let me show you them first and then that'll make more sense hold on going to it's still showing me let me switch to the other one and I have to take off my background okay great thank you Bill um this is our big print sign has the same um 30 font right and what we really want to encourage visitors to do is to think about why cultures around the world have had different Sky Legends and why why that's been important a lot of times people emphasize their local animals and the climate that they're in and so um one of the um constellations in Chile tells people to leave the desert and go up to the mountains during different times of the year um so Theresa hold it a little bit closer to the camera that would be helpful uh yes thank you so this is kind of this is has both sided activity cited words and then also Braille that you can feel underneath it I don't know if I can a little bit lower we can't see the top of it thanks great so there's I just well I'm just trying to show that there's like Braille on the page and so you can feel these outlines of the constellations on the right and then um that tells a little bit about the the idea behind the constellation but it also has the star field so that you can compare both the star fields and what each culture has made of that star field so there's different ones that highlight different interpretations and for those of you in Tasmania I am so sorry we have used here the Big Dipper which is a northern hemisphere asterism so the Dubai is the set of stars that I'm sorry this is going to be harder for southern hemisphere observers I apologize yeah um unfortunately we had to um use it use a constellation that was visible to the folks in the U.S because the kit is geared towards the us but in the original interpret Legends we had constellations for the southern hemisphere so check that out um and go switch over again I wanted to mention too that this the original activities are in both English and Spanish so that's helpful for those of us those of you in Chile and um Spanish-speaking um countries too good point thank you and I also had um so yeah let's get back to the some of the points that I wanted to make which is that we only have the shape of the constellation with a little bit of information we don't it's not our story to tell it's not our Legend to tell so we don't have that part um and that's really important because each group of indigenous people have their own ideas about what's going on in the sky and that's why we call it Legends we don't call it stories or fables because there's more to it than that a lot of different cultures have their ancestors up there or they it's part of the large belief system um and so we want to respect uh indigenous knowledge and and we use that word Legend also um as I was mentioning about constellations um there's lots of other parts of the sky besides stars that um that different cultures use for example and again in the southern hemisphere there's like dark patches and light patches of both the magellanic clouds the coal Sac the things that are down in there in that section of the sky and so they make their Sky patterns with the spaces in between the stars and the um the the objects that they can see and so it's really about the location and the culture and the people and again that's one of the things we want to share is um like what you would know um like what I'm sorry let me just think about this for a second because I had it here and I um can't access that but um we want to be able to have folks think about what's important to them and if if they know any Sky Legends they can share that with the group that they're at also um who would they honor with a place in the sky so that's going to be very um special and meaningful to the group that you're with the visitors um also in the activity guide we have a really great um idea of a constellation which is that um Zion National Park is in Utah while the Sombrero Galaxy is in the constellation Virgo and um that and we also talk about how the classical 88 constellations that we use as road maps for this guy next slide questions I was hoping we would have about 10 minutes for this we only have five so I'm gonna um turn off the recording now and just that we can see each other and if you want to turn on your camera you're welcome to do that and Brian could you stop the recording yeah