Weaving Together Ecovillages & Dances of Universal Peace, with Thao Kin & Jem Bendell

Hello, thank you for joining me. I'm Jim Bendelle, professor emmeritus now uh and coordinator of the metacar crisis initiative. Uh you're joining me here in Indonesia and I'm very pleased today to be joined by Tal Kin who is the network coordinator for the uh global echo village network of Oiana and Asia. So known as Genoa. So Kin as you're known, thank you for joining me today. >> Thank you for having me. It's uh I thought I really wanted to to sit down with you and have a chat because you've been in Indonesia now for a while. Uh you're from Vietnam, that's where you live, but you're visiting here. Uh so I thought maybe we could just start by uh discovering what why what have you been doing in Indonesia. >> Yeah. So I have been here for I think um over 3 weeks now. And uh I'm here in a journey that we call the interbeing journey. It's a a um integrated journey where we go around meet people and share about dances of universal peace, echo village and deep ecology. >> Oh wow. The three things. So you you um those those I'd love to hear how those three things interconnect because the way you are I see how they interconnect. We seem to move uh move seamlessly between talking about eco villages or then leading a a spiritual dance or then talking about uh ecological philosophy. But um yeah, what what what do you feel has been a highlight of your time in in Indonesia the last few weeks? H yeah I think for me before coming to Indonesia I didn't have a lot of knowledge about how rich the uh cultural diversity is uh and also social diversity in Indonesia. I was in Java uh particularly in Jakarta and Borgore and now in Bali and I've been in a little bit the northwest Bali and central Bali and they all have differences in cultural and you know who are living there and how people are living their lives. So it's pretty interesting and I also have the chance to meet with many people who are really passionate about the earth about regeneration and community building. So that's been quite a blessing. >> And that's your passion as well. Yeah. >> So how did you get into this um the eco village uh movement and Genoa specifically? >> Mhm. Yeah. So I actually have been in the path of uh environmental and ecology education since before I knew of eco village movement. But at some point I started to really question what I was doing. uh is it really making an impact or is it just kind of like a bandage on a wound and then I started to have a bit of more like deep dive questioning and exploring around and that's where I found the equivalent education and when I took the equival education course I realized that there's a more holistic and more whole system ways of looking at what I was doing at the time and I felt a bit more um connected to the reason why I was doing it and uh where else I could explore and develop myself in just yeah it's it's still the same path that I was on before but now I felt like more connected and and more wholesome in many way >> right so for people who don't know what is an eco village and why someone would want to live in an eco village could you tell us something about that >> yeah so an eco village um we in the global eco village network. Uh we're thinking of an eco village as a community that um is thriving or trying to develop themselves in the four areas of regeneration. that includes social uh economic ecology which are the three that very familiar with people and the fourth one is world view or cultural how you see the world which we find is very important is the foundation that shape the other three how you see the world how you relate to the world uh dictates how you act in the world and also there's the whole system design where you kind of integrate all the other four together and work through all of them. So that's the more like theory part of it. But there's privileges manifests in many different ways, different scales, different context around the world. And for me, it's basically about how we live in the community of human and more than human beings, but in a way that's more in harmony and supportive of each other and and support life to thrive. And you yourself now live that way in in some type of eco village or eco community. >> Yeah, we have a small group that started an eco community in Vietnam. Um it's a very small uh group of six people living on 5.5 hectares of land. Uh and we are stewarding the land by um learning, applying, practicing regenerative agriculture and ecosystem restoration. We also uh look at how we can um build our houses in a more eco and less uh resource inensive way and how to produce our own food, how to build relationship with the ecosystem and neighbors around uh things like that. >> And so your community is registered with the global echo village networks database. Is that right or >> Yeah, we are in the database. Uh the name of the community is project R. Okay. As in awesome. >> Yes. O as in awesome. >> So why would you what's the benefit for your community of being part of uh the the the gen global network or Genoa specific to Oiana and Asia? >> Mhm. uh I think first is really the motivation and the aspiration to continue because if uh anyone is on this path of doing things that are more regenerative you can realize that sometime you feel like you're against the stream >> and it's just so difficult to continue and when you are part of a bigger network you get a lot of motivation from just learning from what others are doing and also kind of uh rekindle the spire the fire that's always in you and keep moving on. So that the first the second is that there's many tools and frameworks that have been developed by other communities throughout the history of the movement that now we are inheriting from. We can learn from them and apply onto what we're doing. So there are certain mistakes that I think we avoided and there are so many things that we we inherited from the network and just learn how to design our community better, how to work with each other better. And lastly, I think um it's just so important this understanding that we are not alone and we cannot do all of this alone. So the network give us the amplifying of our impact. The sense that we are actually uh contributing to something bigger and our effort is just not not just our own you know. Yeah, I've seen that with the the workshops you've you've run here uh where yeah, I can see that people who maybe are a bit isolated or their communities only doing so much at this point then uh the workshops you you you've run people can then see what's possible or the different areas of opportunity also with your resilience work uh the different ways your communities could be stressed and disrupted. So that was interesting to me because of my work in deep adaptation to see that the uh global eco village network has been doing more on this issue of resilience. Could you could you say something about how the eco village network is seeing this this the potential threat from ecological disruption and what the role of eco villages might be for that. >> Yeah. So when we talk about uh resilience in the project of the global eco village network um we look at how the world is going to change in a warmer uh scenario. uh to be very particular we look at the scenarios of 2.5° warmer how the world is going to look like how the context that we are living on is definitely going to change and of course we have many different ways to react to that but closing our eyes and moving on just daytoday it's it's only going to take us so far cuz um the reality is going to change regardless if you want to look at it or not. So we we think that it's very important that communities become more wellprepared to a scenario when everything is going to be less familiar or maybe very different from what we used to be. Um so weather patterns going to be different. Uh the way that we can do our ecology practice or uh economic practices are going to be different. So how are we going to prepare for all of that? And the other thing is also important to for us as Eco Village network to look at is that sometime echo village can become a bit of an island where you know you do a lot of good practices just inside the boundaries of your own land and you can feel like oh things are very good because we produce our own food. We have really nice atmosphere to stay in. We have a very tight knitted community that love each other. But then what happens in the outer boundaries bound like the boundaries of the echo village will affect the eco village sooner or later and we cannot just close our eyes to that. So how are we going to just look at it and actually be an active member of the wider community and support this transition? >> Yes. So for me, I find it far more impressive, admirable, and attractive when I meet people who are in an eco community and see themselves as a catalyst of wider change in the in the community. So don't see themselves uh in a bubble. Um because in some way it's it's it's not building a bunker, but if you're just huddling together in your eco village, there's something a little bit defensive and and I think maybe shortsighted because uh disruption is coming uh at scale and therefore you you can't really just run away or hide from it. So I'm really impressed. Like we were up there in in North Bali with Alilayia Eco Loge and the people there very focused on how they can work with the local village heads and find those environmentally passionate people in the local villages. Uh for me that's more authentic and also more likely to to help in this disrupted future. you said >> that's um and it's good to hear that's something that the Eco Village community at network level is encouraging. >> Yeah. Yeah. We're looking at this and we also uh try to leverage the fact that we have communities from many different parts of the world with different background and context. Some of the communities in our network are more intentional communities and the people in the communities are not necessarily actually indigenous from that land and were not born on that land and they moved there from somewhere else. But some other communities are actually traditional and indigenous. They have been on the land for so many years and these different communities can learn from each other. >> Right. Yeah. That's good to hear. So, um why should um why should people who are worried about the future or just understand it's going to be disrupted? I mean, you mentioned 2.5° C above pre-industrial temperatures. That can all sound quite technical, but obviously what it means is weather extremes, volatility, unpredictability, and also possibly selfamplifying change. So it's passing tipping points and so we could see much much worse damage and some studies are pointing to that meaning disrupting agriculture to the extent of even billions of people dying young dying earlier than would have been thought. So with that kind of really troubling view does it feel right to focus on eco villages for you? Does this feel that it goes deep enough and wide enough? And if it is going deep and wide enough, how >> how is it really impacting? >> So when people talk about or hear about eco village, they usually think of a a group of people living together on a piece of land in a more ecofriendly way. But for us in the global equivals uh equivalage um in the map of regeneration that I introduced earlier with the four dimension social economy ecology and wound view that's um where echo village and communities want to develop themsel not just in the eco-friendly way of living but also how do we live together how we can really celebrate life together, make life more meaningful without having to have a lot of fancy um houses or you know a lot of uh consumptions. So how life can be flourishing and really worth living even when actually it's quite modest in material terms >> and also how you can sustain yourself how you can earn living in a rightful way like right livelihood it's the term from um Buddhist economics >> and also how you can keep building and preserving and also adding new flavors into the culture of how you live and But again once more time it add into the richness of your life make you feel more fulfilled. It's not like I'm doing this because I need to save the world but I'm doing this because I want to have a very um loving way of life that it's uh supportive not to not only to me but to my people to my community and to the wider web of life. >> Yeah. So, e eco village living is reminding us about how we can live more beautifully right now and also perhaps create a sense of calm and joy despite how bad everything's uh appearing and might become. um and perhaps therefore also giving people a confidence of critique of industrial consumer societies and saying like you don't have to be like that you can try something else. You mentioned worldview or culture and you also said at the start and that's actually how we met uh is this thing dances of universal peace. Um and I was fascinated to discover the role of the eco village network in bringing this um dances of universal peace this uh spiritual circle dance which was created in in by sufis in America originally but bringing that to the majority world and now to Asia. Um, could you say why it feels so right for you as someone who's aware of the environmental crisis and passionate about living differently? Like why does why does this spiritual circle dance matter? >> What does it offer you? >> Mhm. Um well first and foremost for me it's a community practice and uh in the equivalent for us to realize that we are always living in community even if we try to deny it. You have a living system that support you to live. So just your pure existence right now it's possible because you have community of people and the more than human beings to make it possible. So a community practice is very important for me because it just keep reminding us that we are here in connection with others and just keep building that sense of you belong to a community. Um which then again fuel any um mission or passion you'll have in life. And the other uh elements to it is that when we practice dance of universal peace, we tap in this uh well of wisdom from many different traditions around the world. But they usually point to the same messages of love, of compassion, of living in a way that honor the past and uh loving to the present moment. So all of these are I think in many other practices we try to cultivate the sense and leave these wisdom and in dances of universal peace you can do that in community together. So that's really like the sweet spot for me. It's uh some people can see it as a spiritual practice. But even if you're not spiritual, you can just see it as a community practice. And then it bring people together. Those who even don't have to agree on a same topic, but those who feels that they want to connect and to belong and they can come together even just for a brief amount of time. >> Yeah, I've I've I love it. It's uh I mean I played music in kitan bands so devotional music uh and even a cacao ceremony band but there's something about being together in circle moving bodily together in prayer while chanting mantras which is is very beautiful >> and yeah it's kind of like a a fun journey around the world isn't it where I know the ones that you've led uh since we've been here in Ubud uh you've used mar you've drawn from Mari traditions I believe and I think Native American traditions. >> Is there a is there a favorite you could just to illustrate like one that you've led recently which draws on say an indigenous tradition and culture and what their me what the words are and what the message is. Um yeah so one of the song that I've learned from the uh Native American traditions uh lot people um that comes up into my mind right now it's um metuasin >> and metu yasin the terms is means all my relations means that we are all connected we are all families >> um and uh I don't know if it's appropriate if I can maybe sing the melody Sure. Yeah, go for it. Don't know how it will come out on the audio. We haven't. But we can I mean if you don't like it, we can overdub the real thing. >> Go for it. Lovely. >> Okay. So uh first we received uh this song from a dancers of universal peace camp where so we received it from our mentors and I just want to pay respect to the Lakota people and all the indigenous tribe before singing the song knowing that we inherit uh this song from them in the spirit of the song. So it goes Can we do it again? And then it has the part that goes hey >> and it repeats. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And there's something about these ancient indigenous melody >> that when you just sing it, even if you don't know the meaning of the words, it still h carries power, right? Like you still feel like, oh, there's something bigger than myself that is calling me to notice, to pay attention, and to connect. And the song is about this desire to acknowledge and connect with all the rest of life that's inside us and around us. >> Yeah, I um I love singing that one. And of course, the key thing is you get the melody and the words and the meaning, but then the movements um which is lovely. So, it's actually to to make this more of a somatic practice, embody it and uh what do these words and concepts mean? How can you sort of express that bodily but also in sync with other people in a circle? >> Yeah. >> And also then the lovely pair dance is that come where you then connect with every member of the circle. >> So yeah, it it certainly puts me into a different state after a couple of hours of of dancing. >> Yeah. And so you're um you're uh yeah it's it's great that that we're going to meet in in India at this massive DUP beyond initiative dance camp. It seems I mean I was I was amazed that my recollection of DUP was of sort of a an old hippie practice um that I was a bit worried it might die out. Um but coming to Asia it's just taking on new form. Lots of young people really identifying with it. >> I think also identifying perhaps with this idea of the one truth and joy hidden sometimes hidden within different religious teachings. >> Uh but that's lovely to see. Um, and so it's, yeah, it's almost like pointing to the possibility of a spiritual revival that's non-dogmatic and that celebrates diversity. >> Is that your I mean, I'm fairly new to it in Asia, but is is what I've said does that make sense to you or >> Yeah. Uh I think the practice of dances of universal peace or we call the UP uh arrived in Asia through the work of uh the global equivalists uh on the ground. So maybe that's how because that's where entered >> how did that happen? >> Yeah. So um a lot of the uh dense leaders the mentors in this practice are actually people who are living in eco villages in other parts of the world and uh my mentor Arjun uh he was the first one who brought uh DUP to my country in Vietnam and he's the founder of an eco village in Colombia and so he's uh plucked in with the eco village network movement already and when he come to Asia he was connecting to people in the Eco Village network and that's how we uh got introduced to each other and got uh the invitation to um to try the practice to experience it and uh that's also kind of the network that we already have. So it's ripple out from that network of people who are in the equivalative movements and maybe that's why you see a lot of young people as well. And the other elements to it I felt like is that if you are a young person and you care deeply about the earth, about the future of the earth, about the regenerative movement, um sometimes it could feel a bit lonely and also um uh tiring when you have to do this work for a long time without resourcing yourself. And this practice comes as a way of developing the sense of belonging and we can feel that we receive so much. We receive a lot of love, a lot of energy when we do the dances of universal peace. And that's also another element I've I think >> it's why it's like a very open feel uh with the young people in this movement receiving p this practice and feel nourished by it. Yeah, it feels very much like a celebration of um the the easily accessible spiritual dimension of reality and of our lives >> and and yeah, it's celebration as enjoyous. It's enjoyable to do. Um, and I think a lot of people when they become spiritually curious might not find that sense of of of of joy, pleasure, celebration. >> Um, they might instead discover rules >> uh and be worried about divisions and things. So there's something very beautiful for me in the DUP. It's lovely to hear how the Eco Village network has helped bring it to the world. Um, yeah, I I think, you know, every every political movement, every cultural movement, every spiritual movement needs some kind of joyous celebratory experience >> and so yeah, DUP seems to offer that. >> Can I also add an elements with DUP? I think this is also where DUP and the equivalage uh meth of regeneration really meet. >> It's when you practice DUP there's this sense of uh you still are aware of yourself but you can feel that you are becoming part of a bigger hole. >> Yeah. And uh that is where I think it cultivates so much humility and um the sense of connection of interconnection and that's the same thing when we talk about the cultural or wound view dimension in the global equivalent that we have to do everything. It's our um uh responsibility but we are contributing as part of a bigger movement of a bigger body and that sense you can feel really deeply when you're part of an a DUP dance we call it human mandala when we just move effortlessly you make some effort but it's actually not that difficult and then at some point you won't feel like oh you are being dissolved into this uh harmony of sound and movement and the movement itself feel like a moving mandala and there's also something that's it's very invisible but the quality of it you can really feel when you're part of the circle and I think these kind of spiritual practice can help really deepen the intention and the values uh of those who are working in regenerative movements of doing this not just because of our own ego of we want to do it or we feel like it's so important that we're doing it, but we're doing it because we honor that this is our part to play >> in the bigger scheme of things. >> Yeah. And as things get very difficult in the world and it's difficult to see that much progress as concerned people environmentalists then finding that deeper resolve that deeper ground for our action which is this is just we know how this is a beautiful way to live and this is we choose to live more beautifully no matter what's happening. um that that can't really be damaged through the latest bad news. It's it's like a deeper foundation for purpose and for action. >> Yeah. >> Um so >> you know when you are faced with the challenges in the world, you might feel um it's very painful sometimes and it's okay to to rest when it feels painful and then you're still going to be supported by your community. If you're in DP practice, then there are songs that support you when you need to hold that pain you have for the world and process it before you are able to continue what you do. >> Yeah. And talking to you about this, Kin, I'm thinking it's such a shame that so much of mainstream environmentalism has become very technical uh dry about finding the business case for doing this, why it's going to make us more money or finding the latest technology that will fix a problem. Um so it's kind of I I feel like yeah the environmental movement and profession in many parts of the world seems to have lost this sense of there's a more real authentic and joyous way of being and living in harmony with nature. Um, so yeah, the work you're doing and the crossover between Eco Villages and DUP, this celebration of human culture and wisdom traditions is important and is possibly one portal back into a much more interesting environmentalism. Um, I mean, we needed all the environmental consultants and the corporate sustainability stuff and that I gave my career to that for decades, but but it loses some of the magic and the joy, >> I find. So, I'm I'm drawn to the work you're doing in the two communities that you've been become a leader within. Um, yeah, and it's great for me. It's like u you talk about cultural humility. I mean, so I'm from Britain and where I'm finding hope and joy and a sense of home is uh in Asia with people who uh like to sing and dance and praise the divine before going back to um look after their vegetables. >> Great. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Super. Um so what do you think that what do you think uh like we're coming to the end of the interview. What from your perspective the work you do now for many years in in the environmental sector the kind of people most of the people who watch my stuff or read my stuff are from the the data shows from America and then it's Europe. Um, is there anything do you feel like sharing anything to the environmentally concerned people who are aware of potential or unfolding collapse? Is there anything that you think would be really important to share from your perspective as a as a as a a woman working on this from Vietnam and regionally in Asia? >> Mhm. Yeah, I think um being from Vietnam uh we experience how our country is striving to develop as fast as possible and development here. It's usually about economic growth >> and that take a toll on our environment on our culture and these impacts are felt deeply among the uh local and indigenous people that we are now part of. relief among indigenous people and um the working people uh who don't really have a lot of um contributions into how the uh bigger trajectory of economic development is going but they are uh receiving the impact of it very very um significantly and I think that's it's the same stories in many other countries in Asia But with the um with the drive to solve solve all of these crisis and problems if we like you said focus on uh techniques solutions and um only the environmental side of things. There's always a risk that what we are trying to do create more harm than good. especially to communities that are far away from us that we not aware of how it's all of this ripple effects it's happening and that is why um in the Asian in well in my country's tradition in the Asian tradition and in many I think uh cultural traditions in the world there's always this emphasize on uh cultivating inner inner peace inner work and uh how that should go line in line with any activists or environmentalists work that we're doing because then we would uh we would then feel more the connection and be more considerate in many ways in looking at what we're doing and the impact it might have on ourselves and others. So, so that one one thing that I feel like in both the equival communities, we we're working even if we're not saying it out loud, but we're working on uh merging all of these dimensions together, the ecological dimensions of things. We are still working on how to minimize our impact, how to regenerate the land. But the uh the cultural or wound view dimension is really keeping us to be moderate, to be um considerate while doing it. >> Uh yes, I'm hearing an invitation to moderation instead of the idea that let's just electrify everything and power our high consumption lifestyles with renewables. You didn't say that, but I'm I'm I'm thinking of that because there is a what I call a fake green fairy tale that's very popular amongst um people who ideologically uh might even selfidentify as ecomodernist, meaning we can fix the climate. We can get ourselves off fossil fuels and we can maintain life as we know it with our conveniences and our consumption. And actually there's a terrible ecological footprint to that idea. Um you've got a lot of mining for metals, for the batteries, for all the the the wires for electrifying everything. And so yeah, the tragedy is that some of the most pristine environments in the world are under threat uh from this so-called green transition. And yeah, I think there's an absence of this spirit of moderation like actually we need to reduce some of consumption levels. We need to find ways of >> having peace and joy and purpose without using so much of the world's resources. Um that's not just a western challenge. Obviously middle classes in urban areas around the world now, but yeah, that's um a big thing. and at least the Eco Village movement and even just the very fact of the joy through DUP. This is often unamplified music. Um uh and you don't need you don't you don't need a kind of a venue with fancy chairs or any of that. You can just take over any space and have one guitar and you all sing together. This is this is a sort of low ecological footprint form of of worship and celebration. So yeah, I think um I get inspiration from from both of the things that you're doing and I feel like I'll be more involved in both in future. So it's been really fun to have have uh spent some time with you here in in Bali at the events we did. So and thank you for sitting down before you you go back home. >> Yeah, thank you. I also feel very privileged to get to know your work more and feel like we were just uh colleges working alongside for so many years and now we can meet and see how can we can synergize our work together. >> Yeah, >> it's amazing. >> Thank you, Kim.