We talk about cheating as if it is only about ‘penetration’. It isn’t!

Hi everyone, welcome back to the podcast. I'm hi are super excited. This is my first copy. Sema's finally back from Delhi and I get my copy. I was so excited to see my name on it and to have written in the book. It has been a fantastic journey because I think it's a book off our podcast and uh there's so much stigma and shame around sex and sexuality and the podcast really gave a space for people to come and ask their question. But just in case if you're not podcast savvy, you can now read all that information in the book. It is super exciting actually to um to have done this together. And today we're actually going to discuss a subject that is in here already, but we're going to go slightly deeper into it today and that is the subject of cheating. Now cheating as we know um it's being discussed a lot. Cheating has taken on many different faces ever since we've gone digital, right? So now it's not just inerson cheating or what people think. People used to say in the past, I cheated a little bit. Like, is there such a thing as cheating a little bit? Is there a way to rank cheating? Like, this cheating is better than that cheating. And what all actually comes under cheating today? >> Yeah. Well, as in what all comes is um you know, we can make a a bookshelf out of it. I think cheating has become really an interesting topic and much spoken about because like you're saying in some ways I think it it was there in all its ways but it was simpler like is it physical is it emotional is it flirting but now it's obviously more complex uh because um it's it is texting flirting with somebody meeting somebody online having an only fans account um going and meeting people online. Is that all of that cheating as well? Um because I guess people get the clarity about it being physical, right? But even in that I feel we were having this discussion with friends because they were actually we were having a conversation on would we tell a friend if we found out that their partner was cheating. Um, and what I what layers came out and what I turned around and said is what might be cheating for somebody might not be cheating for that couple. You know, if there's a pre-negotiation or understanding in everything about how flirting is fine in their relationship or casual kissing is fine in their relationship or otherwise if they have that understanding. So by my standards it might be cheating but by their standards not. So I think the first thing I would want to start by saying is that every couple has their boundaries of what they consider cheating. And if you've not had that conversation, please have that conversation. Partners cannot imagine what your boundaries are. It's not something that is a given. So if you have a boundary, if you feel that somebody one night stand is a problem for you or flirting is a problem for you, please have that conversation with your partner. They cannot imagine that boundary. >> I think that is really good advice actually because people don't talk right. We don't talk about our sexual health. We don't talk about what we want, what we don't want, what our boundaries are, what things mean to us. We just kind of assume like this is something that I don't like and hence you won't like it as well. But you know as I'm sure your friends have come and said to you I can't believe he or she did that you know how can you even imagine and and the thing is yes in your head it's such a clear thing is it such a clear thing in their head and you know and and and and actually the topic even started about people going to a strip club and people looked at me and said oh how can that ever be a problem strip clubs are okay right and I was like that's That's the thing what you think is okay for somebody else might be a big problem you know so how how you need to have a conversation with your partners as what you think is actually healthy and fine versus what would be problematic for you and there's no right or wrong in this it is what can be problematic for you and the circumstances in which it's done because sometimes it's not an issue and Sometimes it is. So it just also depends. So I think yeah, first thing of course conversation. But I actually want to start today's podcast with you remember recently there was that real with um Kajel and Twinkle Kana talking about ranking cheating. Like it's okay if somebody has a one night stand, but it's not okay if they've actually got emotionally attached to somebody else. And to me that's a load of nonsense because I'm sorry whether I mean if you have been on the receiving end of your partner sleeping with somebody else that hurt is no less. Yeah. That betrayal is no less. But but once again that's why I'm going back to the boundary. If in a relationship somebody has had a conversation and said look it's an open or you can go on work trips you know you can sleep with people but don't come and tell me and I don't want to know and it's okay or that it's an open marriage then it doesn't hurt because you know that has been pre-negotiated what I do hear from you is that when it is not pre-spoken about or it is open to one person but not open to the other which becomes problematic. But to your idea of that ranking of like justifying I I'm totally on the same page as you like justifying cheating like say if that's not something that you spoken about if that's not something that's been contracted in your relationship uh saying is not okay. You know, I find that um over the decades, over the centuries, this has become a gendered thing >> that, you know, we've kind of created this um this identity that emotions are weak. Silence and not showing emotion is strength. Men can have sex without emotion, which is completely wrong, of course, but that's the uh identity that's been put out. They can have sex without emotion. Hence, that is okay. It's not a problem. But if you have sex with emotion, that means that is further cheating. I mean, that is absolute crap. >> Yeah. I I think I wonder when you think bring in gender, I wonder how much of it came from surviving or justifying where women didn't have choices. And I think that's the big difference when we contract consensually in a relationship and both parties are empowered and willing that comes from a place of maybe identity, pleasure, uh wanting those choices. But when it comes from a place of and I have to live in this marriage to you know at least emotionally or as a father he's really good or he's committed to the relationship at least he provides all those things we hear so often right that men will be men and they have physical needs and it's only physical how does it matter and I wonder I do think in many cases, I wouldn't say all, there is a lot of pain there. It's a lot of justifying to survive in relationships, I think. Yeah, fair enough. What you're saying is that if it's either been predecided or it's something that you have to live with, that's one thing, but you know, just on the most basic level, like when two people go into a relationship, the idea that this is okay, but this isn't okay. I think we need to first of all shatter that >> that cliche that no it neither is all right. >> Yeah. >> And you know if a if for instance you're saying as a man you're saying well one night stand is okay it's not such a big deal. Most of these men if their wife was to do it or their partner was to do it they wouldn't look at it the same way. >> Yeah. >> So I think it does become very much about it's okay for me but not okay for you. >> No. And that and that's why I say if it is contracted for both right it has to be open. But I think and I think we wrote about that in the book because many times what happened is women really stay with this fear of he will leave if I can't he will leave. So and although they agree to it because it's come they're not comfortable with it. It's coming the consent is coming more out of fear uh than it is actually coming out of uh empowerment like I'm saying it's not coming out of their pleasure or their need to have multiple partners. It's coming from the fear that their marriage might break up or you know that and I think little bit of pride as well because if you stop somebody and they still go ahead and do that I think that hurts way more than saying yeah yeah I know about it you know because then it gives you some control otherwise it feels like somebody's just despite you're saying no somebody's walking all over And I think that a lot of times, at least when it comes to heterosexual relationships, women do, we have been conditioned to believe that our self-esteem is totally linked to how attractive your romantic partner finds you. >> So, the fact that they will cheat means that something is wrong with me. >> And I get these questions all the time. I get women saying, you know, he's doing this, he's not interested in me, he's going out flirting with other women, but doesn't even look at me. How can I bring him back to me? And that breaks my heart. That really makes me want to cry, you know, and if you think about it and if you look at the movies, and that's what I find very problematic. if it's Hollywood or Bollywood all those uh you know makeup like having a re-imaging you know if the women are like not uh you know if they're not attractive if they're simple and everything they need to go have a makeover and suddenly when they come up hot you know you are the best thing ever and and so somewhere we have validated somebody's worth or self image by how they like um and actually I have to say um randomly we were seeing me mea v you know one of the things and in that she says um you know I prefer Percy because at least his likeness for me doesn't change with my clothes uh because she has one of those you know they do an makeover for her and she comes back hotter than she was before but but that is a classic movie all the time what you're talking about uh that it is and that linking up that right like we hear that all the time in the Indian [clears throat] context like this if you're going to look like >> don't you think he's going to go off somewhere else >> exactly as we hear that you know you look better you become more modern you do this otherwise he will go somewhere else and we and so the responsibility is put on the women rather than the men or whoever is the victim in this case. Yeah. >> So, um I think now cheating has become just a little bit more complex because I've heard people say, "Oh, so and so went to a party and they flirted. That's cheating." To another person who wrote to me saying that um my boyfriend masturbated. Is that cheating? So, we've kind of gone all the way from whether you actually have sex with somebody, is that cheating? Or if you haven't had sex, but you've merely flirted or just kissed, is that cheating or not? To the complete other side of it, which is if you masturbated, is that cheating on me? If you watched porn, has that >> does that mean that that you've cheated on me? If you are following people on social media who are dressing hot, particularly if you're following women who are dressing in um like bikinis and stuff, is that cheating? If you are sending them DMs to tell them that they look great, is that cheating? Or you're liking their com their um posts? Because I get that a lot that my boyfriend or my girlfriend is liking so and so's post. Is that cheating? it's just gotten more complex or was it always there and we just didn't see it? >> I think it was always there in some forms, but I I I understand the complexity because I and I also feel like there's a gap. There is this whole world open between only fans, pornography, texting, um you know, Instagram or other social media where or or you know forums where you can go meet people and have sexual conversations and everything and um I'm not remembering the details but I remember we had once spoken years ago about how this uh this man had given up all his money and spent a lot of money on going into the sex forums um and actually had lost all his money become bankrupt because they would go to all these sex forums and everything so you know and so I think obviously there is more accessibility you know uh it it takes way less but I also think there's a gap because for example pornography so many women have a problem but if men have masturbated, watching pornography. To undo that habit takes some time and effort and there's no empathy for that in some ways for women or men because you know if your arousal is so linked to and your ability to orgasm is so linked to watching pornography which is unhealthy. I'm not saying that is it but that is a pattern that has been established to undo it but it's really judged in a lot of ways. Um, so I, so what I'm saying is that all these things are complex rather than black and white. And if people could have conversations around them and not judge them, it would be way healthier for the relationship. It always comes back to that, right? Talk to each other. actually talk to each other because I remember this one woman had written because we had talked about something on porn one time and um we had said that it is there people do do it and it's so long as it's not what we call addiction where you can't actually have sex with your partner anymore just because that's all you want to do and there are people who actually do that they only want to ejaculate to porn they don't actually want to have physical sex with their partner anyway we talked talked about the fact that it happens. There's no need to judge so badly that you know these things are there in our lives and this woman had written a very categoric point saying that if my partner is getting aroused by watching somebody else to me that is cheating. So you know some people can take this sort of thing very very strongly very um seriously. I always say you know people are constantly saying oh monogamy is not um natural to human beings. Monogamy is a social construct. I always say okay we live in this society and most of us prefer monogamy. Most of us feel safer with monogamy. But to me that break in monog that we're not supposed to be monogous means that you are going to constantly be attracted to other people. Attraction to a lot of other people is normal. Yeah. So, I was just laughing because I just recently I sent to my uh cohort, my psychosexual therapy cohort. There was an article that had come out and they had listed where human beings in the animal kingdom are with monogamy and and we are not in the top 10. We're not in the bottom 10, but we're not in the top. I think we were like I I'll have to look at the article. Maybe next time when we do a podcast, I'll keep that article out. Uh but there were other animal species that were way more monogous than human beings and our ancestors chimpanzeee were way lower than us. So we've improved from them. Uh but but yeah there's an article on in the animal kingdom and monogamy. Just want to mention that you know you were talking about that woman and porn. We have to understand that and that's what I mean by come by empathy. And that's that's a little bit the problem with pornography. the stimulus, the stimulus that is provided with now the companies that produce porn and everything, it's kind of a hook and it gets linked and it's so physical that that stimulus sometimes cannot get replicated and that's what is the unhealthy part because what we are watching is so you know physical and different parts and and you know and it's and it's created that way that to replicate that in relationships it's impossible like just because it's done with a lot of software it's done with a lot of technology and you know it's done in bits and pieces and put together um so and and so when somebody gets into a human relationship they're still looking for that stimulus um so I think it can be changed but we have to undo that and you know make the arousal points different and the relationship different. So be patient rather than judge it and see it. There is also a whole industry behind it, you know. So multi-billion dollar industry behind it creating that narrative. >> Yeah. So just be considerate about that. It's just I want to go back and with monogamy I hear you. I think the boundaries are are difficult now because it's so easy to flirt with somebody you see, send that text that could be very sexual, you know, be attracted to somebody or um the stimulus once again that is coming on the Instagram feeds and everything um is so provocative, you know, just to like it and everything and and and I feel that's a lot of pressure if those are our boundaries, you know, that's a lot of pressure to say like you're saying attraction towards somebody else to say it will never happen in your lifetime if you're married or with a monogous relationship. I think that's an impossibility. >> It's a complete impossibility. And I personally think that I mean I know that as you go through life and as you get older you will find yourself attracted to a bunch of other people. You'll find yourself thinking about them sometimes more than maybe you should. You may even find yourself fantasizing about somebody else when you are having sex with your partner >> or dream about it and that's unconscious. It's not in your consciousness but yeah >> but it could be conscious or subconscious. So yeah, >> and I know that for a lot of people if they knew about this, like if this is something that's going on in your head and your partner finds out about it, it is going to for most people be a little bit like, what do you mean you were fantasizing about somebody else? To me, that is not cheating. But what do you think somebody should do? Like if you are fantasizing about somebody for a brief while, even if that brief while means a few weeks or whatever, should you just keep quiet about it, you don't really have to say anything. It's in your head. And once it's out, does that become cheating? If it stays in your head, does it not become cheating? What happens? >> Let me put a twist to this, okay? >> Because um and and we know role play, people talk about role play. So is it okay to fantasize about actors and actresses role play with them and you know say oh I find this actor really attractive and I'm fantasizing them and I fantasize that character Princess Leah Star Wars biggest all the time. Um so >> is that then in the same category or is it only when it's a real person does it become problematic? Um, so what I'm saying is once again complex because a lot of couples might turn around and say fantasizing about characters and actors and celebrities is is very normal and it's okay to be obsessed about it and everything. You know, people all the time will say, "Oh, you do obsessed with that actor or actress and everything." >> And then it's it's a funny moment, right? Um but if it becomes your neighbor which happens a lot um it's problematic >> as in I and and I think that's where it is is what have you contracted in your relationship and are you acting about on it or not. Uh you cannot change your feelings just the way we say you can't change attractiveness. You can't change that you look at somebody and you have that feeling in your stomach or you look again or anything. It those are unconscious things that you will do again and again. However, valuing or staying within whatever has been negotiated in your relationship that is what is that is what you contracted for you know. So please do not contract for I will never feel attracted to another person because that is not going to happen. So be honest. Uh but if you're not acting upon it, you know, if you are not saying let's go for a drink or you were a waste so I went for dinner because then you're kind of playing with fire like if you if you put yourself in those situations. I once did a video on the fact that we all get attracted to other people and when you're in a long-distance relationship that attraction is likely to it'll stay in your head a little bit longer. So now I mean we could you could be sitting next to your partner at a party and still find somebody else attractive. If the partner is not there with you they're long distance you're likely to carry that thought home with you for a little bit longer. >> Yeah. So, I talked about how this happens. The amount of push back on, oh [clears throat] my god, you're teaching people how to cheat. If you really love somebody, you'll never be attracted to anybody else. And I always and I tried saying to people at that point. I normally just don't bother to respond when people get like this. I tried saying to them that look, you know, that's fine. If you are in love with somebody and you never want to be attracted to somebody else, that's perfectly okay. But suppose it happens. I am just trying to tell you that you don't have to start judging yourself at that point. Would they listen? No. So can we just talk about how easily this can happen and how it stays in your head? And and I think as a society especially in India, I would say we have made this into a good and bad thing. Oh, how can he he or she be attracted to somebody else? If you are married or in an relationship, you cannot look at anybody. You can't get attracted to everybody. So, those are the messages we've been getting again and again. Um, and so we really judge this. But like you're saying, I think it's impossible because I would love to meet that one person who has never looked back and said, "Oh, that person's looking really good today." And and the thing is we do it innocently all the time and we'll say, you know, we say that that what you're wearing is looking really good today and somewhere we've obviously found them attractive in the moment. Now, is that a bad thing? Like why is it a bad thing? You know it is people you find somebody attractive is not a bad thing. If I change that perception it all that means is you found them attractive and you know the big debate today is people find people intellectually attractive and everything. There is a lot of things that you will play with because your relationship you will evolve as a person and your relationship will not be able to cater to your growth and that is because your partner will have their own growth journey. You will have your own growth journey and so there's always constant working so that you stay together. And so there will be times and it is very normal that in your growth journey other aspects of other people will find attractive, right? Somebody might go on a growth journey and they're really into fashion and clothes and everything and they've and and they got married to somebody who was very intellectual and very simple and and now they go into this world and they other people like the same thing as they and so they are going to feel attracted to that quality. Whereas your partner might have gone more and more into their intellectual journey and might feel very attractive to somebody who is on their same path and that requires the working to bridge the gap and say we have to stay committed. So what I would say is that actually one shouldn't shy away from these attraction. One should know that that's reality of life and we have to constantly work on our relationships because attractions will always be there. So um I'm going to ask you about a few of these scenarios that if your partner did this would you think that it was cheating or not? >> So that's for me personally. >> For you personally. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So for instance, if your partner is um following various women on Instagram who are like particularly like hot bikini model type girls, you know, the the kind of women who are sort of um like really fabulous to look at for a certain stereotype of body. >> Yeah. My partner is not on social media. Okay. [laughter] No, but but but I'll answer the question if he was following. >> So I so so what happens in our relationship and I'll say it that way. I have been very clear with my boundaries from the beginning of my political leaning around gender and objectification right uh and I speak about that to my partner and everything. So that's a boundary I have created saying this is problematic for me. So say but so if we change that scenario and my partner was following somebody who was you know very attractive maybe not objectified um I think I I I wouldn't say that I would be completely okay with it um but uh that's not something that we've spoken about and I think if I have permission for it I'll be okay with it and I do have permission for it in many ways. So I have to say that when I was very young, I was 23 when I got married and quite immature and we never had these conversations then. So we didn't really know how to react to a lot of things. I wish somebody had sat us down and just talked through it. And um I remember when we got married um I had a very good friend who was stunningly beautiful and I was petrified of my husband meeting her because I was like oh my god she's so beautiful that if he looks at her he's going to actually find her way more attractive than me. Like I said we grow up feeling that our self-esteem is linked to how attractive your romantic partner finds you. So I I remember we were in we were young couples and we had gone for a South African safari and we had this ranger Sha. I thought he was the hottest thing. I think I was like I was just like drooling all over him. But in my head that fear that my partner would be feeling so un you know I can't say it. He'll get so mad. he'll be like so like he'll be so upset about this and everything. So I didn't say anything right. Um, and I remember we came back and I was in New York at that time and some conversation happened and I said, "Who do you think I like whatever I was like um I was flirting with or attracted to?" And he was like, "You were all over like Sean." And I was like, "You noticed." And you know, so so the thing was that it was something that was present and and I don't mean like physical drooling or something. I was just like I just thought he was the coolest thing ever. Um and and and my partner was okay with it, you know. It wasn't I think there was an understanding that I will never cross the boundary and that I could have found somebody cool or attractive, you know. So tables turn. I don't think it's always men who are all over. It can be women as well. Um, and so this is like this was an example like he was what I thought I wasn't speaking about and it was in my head and because I wasn't saying it, it wasn't wrong. >> He knew it and he was okay with it. It didn't trouble him in any way. He was okay um about it. But I think that goes a long way to saying that you built a relationship that you've got the communication enough to be with each other and talk to to talk to each other about certain things. I um [clears throat] when I met Rahul and we didn't really know each other at that point very much. The fear that I had was very very real and and it is you know there is there's always conversations now in our friend circle about women >> um who are maybe very attractive or very outgoing or you know very open independent and everything. Um and people like it is it is shocking to me how much people judge or like you're saying people would say uh I'm not comfortable my partner being around them or being alone with them and everything. Uh so [clears throat] I I do think that there is a lot of discomfort with attractive women women with the fear of it and as in I'll come with the to the fear with or empathy as well. But what I always say is that >> it could be as attractive or as nonattractive. If there is that communication and trust within the relationship, you will be fine with it. So work more on that trust building rather than saying you can't meet this person rather than the fear of course. But I will also say something else that I've noticed. I find that when people get together when they're younger find generally speaking the men and women are more conscious about keeping boundaries >> and being around each other and being more careful >> to not hurt the other person. I have and I'm not generalizing. >> I found that as relationships grow older or as men grow older particularly >> they seem to have less worry about stepping out the boundary. There seem it seems to become easier somehow. >> And it's weird because we have more insecurities when we're younger. >> We have fewer insecurities as we get older. And that's when also the stepping out starts to become a little bit more. >> Yeah, I hear you like I so two things um that that they have come up in conversations. I totally hear you that men or or partners feeling like okay this relationship is not going anywhere so we can play more with the the the um the thought that this relationship might break. um is less on somebody's mind. So then you know playing around or feeling that they can you know when they come back this relationship will be there that that security or shortity is so high. Um and women also in the similarly or the other partner similarly feels like the question of is it worth really you know changing this relationship and it has been a relationship of so many years. Is it worth breaking it over this? That becomes a conversation which is an interesting one. I I I do think that that you change your principles because of the time you've invested in the relationship and is it worth it to you know mess up all that investment over one night over an attraction over a flirt over a text u that is a conversation that I hear a lot and I find that interesting because it would be a non-negotiable for me but that is or maybe I'm not in those shoes maybe if I was in those shoes I would be saying the same thing. Um, is it worth breaking all that investment? The other side that I've heard when you think about women, finally women, middle-aged women where the kids especially like have grown up, uh, you are needed less by them, the household needs you less and everything. They're finally paying attention to themselves and saying, "I haven't looked at my needs at all and I'm happy to look at my needs and I'm happy to cross boundaries now because finally somebody's paying attention to me. Nobody has paid attention to me. I have been on the back burner, you know, doing stuff for everyone and this feels good when somebody's paying attention to me." So, I'm also hearing that a lot. >> Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So that was whether social media would bother you. Suppose your partner found himself feeling very attracted to a colleague. Would you consider that cheating or would you be okay with it? Because I was just I just want to point out that in the book we have done one chapter about this guy who suddenly after 12 years of marriage is now says that he feels that he's very attracted to his neighbor the neighbor's wife >> and um was looking for excuses to you know like oh she's so be you know and she dresses so nicely like my wife doesn't she talks so sensibly like my wife doesn't she does such and such like my wife doesn't. So there were all of this and we've started that particular chapter talking about how a study shows that um over 50% of people in relationships have admitted to being in love with somebody else, not doing anything about it, but being like into somebody else long term. So I think if there was a camaraderie and attraction with a colleague um I'm sure it's been there as in I I'm not saying it hasn't but somewhere if it starts impacting my relationship I I think I would have a problem with it. uh but otherwise if it is something like we've said they feel attracted they you know they are able to provide something to each other that our relationship can't um I so so I feel like till there is that attraction or mutual interest um I would analyze it for sure I'm not saying I'd be completely happy about it will irk me somewhere u but I think I'll be hyp hyper heightened to noticing and be over sensitive of where it is coming into my space and that would kind of be the breaking point if it came into my space. >> So I'll tell you um so my husband many years ago uh there was one of his colleagues and um they got on really well. They had a fabulous relationship and somewhere I feel that there was a very deep attraction towards one another and it didn't go anywhere beyond that. I don't think it did anyway. She's also married. She's also quite committed to her relationship but they really enjoyed spending time together and I was absolutely okay with it. But my best friend at that point said to me, I don't think you should allow this to happen because you do not want him to become emotionally dependent on the other person. And I was like, you know, I also think that at this stage there is I mean they work together, they chat together all the time. There is an emotional dependency that they have anyway because the largest space of your day is at work rather than at home. And I was at that point really busy bringing up my children. I was emotionally more tired. >> And I still remember at that point thinking, "Yeah, it's fine. I, you know, like I wasn't going to fight this." I think it was because somewhere in my head, and I could have been wrong. I could have easily have been wrong. Somewhere in my head, I was like, "Okay, but this isn't going anywhere." Like, it's all right. whatever space they're in. Sometimes you need somebody else. We as women have girlfriends that we can get that close to. But because it's a girlfriend, I was going to switch it. I was going to say, what if that person that your husband was close to was a man, you know, it would become like a bro a bro and it would be completely okay and it would be like they're like brothers. They're like, "So, it's interesting how gender makes a difference." And I also feel like this would be true. And and what if it reversed where you were at work and you got on like fire with a guy? So, I also feel like just because you have a deep friendship, attraction, like what is attraction? You're you they they are fulfilling needs that are important to you in many ways. Could be intellectual, could be support, could be emotional and everything. Why do we believe that our partners need to live in this isolation where we need to provide everything, right? And that's impossible. You cannot provide everything and oh my god, that's a lot of pressure. If you have trust and safety, it's okay that they are growing and they might get other things from other people. You know, I'm not so much into music. If if my my partner loves hearing say metallic, you know, some of the heavy metal or something and they go out with a friend to hear that, that's okay that they enjoy it. Why should I curtail them listening to a music that I have no interest in and what if somebody else shares? So this insecurity that just because somebody else shares a interest with them and that would impact your relationship I think actually is a breeding ground of a lot of insecurities. Feel secure in your relationship. And I think that's where you went. You went and said I'm secure in this relationship. I think it's okay. And and >> we used to we used to laugh about this cuz I have three kids. I used to laugh about it and then say okay you know if he decides to run away with her I am sending the children with him up. She will return him. She'll say please take your kids and yourself back to your wife. [laughter] Okay next one. And this is my final one. Suppose your partner is going out with a bunch of his other men friends and the guys that he goes out with tend to play out. Okay? So, he's going out with um [clears throat] let's say three other guys to a bar. The other three are flirting. They're trying to pick up women, etc. And the the general conversation that we all have is that if they're all doing that, you're not going to be sitting there alone more likely and not doing anything like what are you also doing then? >> So once again, we're like such a bad example and I'm feeling so bad. It's things we've spoken about, right? And so like it was a so he went for one of those 40ths or 50ths. this group of guys were going to call a stripper and he was very vocal saying will kill me if I because this is something that I have political reasons other reasons and everything that we've like you know he knows what's a non like things and in hindsight now I think I was more of an activist when I was young this conversation came up actually at our wedding when there was supposed to be a bachelor's party for him and I was like there better not be you know because women face a lot in the industry and they are exploited you better not be part of the exploitation and it's now different because my I have conversations now with my son and his friends and they talk about how a lot of women today are choosing the industry to um to actually earn money and see it as a profession and it is not exploitative. So I am coming and that it is the oldest profession. So I am you know I think I've changed my views also and it might have looked different. Um so I think we are a different couple because of my political background around these things and him um you know me like badgering him with it in many ways. But at the same time, we have somebody like uh in the in the family and everything and he's been a flirt forever. That's just who he is. And he'll be sitting and there could be parents, there could be friends, there could be something and the waitress will come and he'll just start flirting with her, right? And we're just like can't believe it. Like you can't just But that's just his nature in many ways. But what I'm seeing is in some ways that's seen as okay. That's his nature knowing that he won't cross the boundary. It's flirting. Um so I so I do think that it is what one so once again I'm a really bad example for this conversation in many ways. Uh but I think what I would say is if you don't have awareness that will be different but if you have awareness and you know that these are things that will happen on boy trips or otherwise and if you're uncomfortable about something proactively have that conversation you know there are ways I I hear there's pressure I'm not taking away the pressure there's peer pressure of how can you not come with us what can you do and everything. Uh but you know, if if they if they've had that conversation with you, then you're just you're more relaxed about what's happening or if they're open with you, you don't feel like they're doing it behind your back or something like that. So, all I'm saying to you is have those conversations that you feel um that you have spoken about this rather than feeling like, oh, they went behind my back and they did all this. So because a lot of people have this thing that if my partner, my husband, my committed partner is going out on a boy trip, this is bound to happen. I will not think of it as cheating while others do. So I think it's really complex because it's like, okay, this is where I draw the line. You can do it over here, but it does not come back home with you or whatever. And if you do it over there with these women in another country along with your other buddies because that's what everybody is doing. I don't consider this stepping over the line. It's just like a to me the more examples I look at the more complex it gets >> you know and and talking about that I think it is so complex because I remember I'd gone to and I've attended very few weddings in Delhi but I attended this one wedding in Delhi and they had got this belly dancer or some dancer from like one of the Middle East or something. She was obviously provocatively dressed. Um, she was dancing in a very sensuous way that was supposed to be the entertainment of the night. It was really it was like rather than being in a strip club, you had just got somebody dressed in a certain way at a wedding and surrounded by men and women or even if we think about uh those dances that you know we see in movies or otherwise in Bihar and UP and everything where women will be present while men are being entertained by women. Um, so I I find it ironic when women suddenly have a problem saying, "Oh, they went away and that was problematic." And yet you'd invite somebody to a wedding or a function for the same purpose. So I think it's also so it's also, you know, I I think it's complicated and yet I know a lot of women would be completely fine with it. And I know somebody who actually got um a stripper for their partner's 40th and they thought that that was actually all okay and good for them if that is something that they think is completely fine and that's something so I what I would just want to say is think about what feels comfortable and why not because you just created this idea that everything is bad related to sex and sexuality and they can't do anything or whatever truly what feels uncomfortable able for you. Uh truly, you know, do you really think it's that bad if they engage in something? And if you don't, it's okay. The more room and space you'll give, the easier the relationship will be and you will get the same room and space for yourself. I think that's actually a really great place to bring this podcast to an end because I think with every single um example that I brought up, Anita's response has been about the communication and the personal boundaries that we share. So I think the the final upshot of the conversation is that it is all very individual. There is no one idea to cheating. Even with somebody going all the way to have sex with someone, if that is already part of the boundaries that they've created, then that is not cheating. If you've done it without the other person's knowledge or permission, then it becomes cheating. So, I think everything is very very individual. I think cheating is something that bothers us a lot these days because suddenly the world has opened up in such a way. It's not just about somebody going out physically to somewhere to do something. Now there is possibilities of exchanging nudes online with somebody and sort of, you know, you can do pretty much anything right now. And it all just finally comes down to how much you respect the other person enough to keep their trust, how much you can communicate and draw your boundaries and eventually how much you understand you want to be able to take and how much you want to be able to give. And so and I think that is the most important piece because like you were saying there is no forum like you know we used to do this exercise when we used to do comprehensive sexuality education of what our boundary is you know of what how much how sexually active we want to be right because it was well what happens is you go into a situation with a boyfriend girlfriend new person and you suddenly realize oh I was okay till kissing. I thought that was exciting but they better not touch me anywhere. Right? But you haven't thought of it and in the moment but if you had thought of it before you might say look this is what I'm okay with. I'm okay till oral sex. I don't want to have penetrative sex. I'm okay till like kissing and touching but I don't want to have oral sex. Then people know rather than you being in the middle of it. But like you said nobody has that conversation. So more importantly for us, we need to sit and think and say what genuinely feels unsafe for us in our relationship. What do we really think is is is feels like a non-negotiable for us. Not based on the societal messages because by societal messages everything is bad. what truly feels and then to have that conversation and there might be a negotiation because your partner might come back saying nah and and you can then say am I okay with this or not okay with this right but that conversation has to happen but that conversation cannot happen till you have selfreflected on what is okay and not okay for you so true I hope that all of you found that useful if you did. As always, please comment, like, subscribe. This is a subject that I think is very important to discuss right now just because of the world that we're living in and how we're living in it. And um as always, if you need to get in touch with Dr. Anamadan Behel for a consultation, you can reach out to her at uh my website is culture and theapy.co.uk. And if you want to send a question, I am on info.sema.andgmail.com. anand@gmail.com. Please do send us your questions. We will try our best to answer them for you. And in the meantime, look after yourselves and stay safe. And go buy the book. [music] >> [music]