WATCH THIS To Stay Motivated Everyday & Achieve GREATNESS! | John Maxwell

I heard Earl Nightingale say on a tape, "If you had spent 1 hour a day, every [music] day, on one subject for 5 years, you could become an expert on that subject." So, I said, "Wow, I I want to become an expert [music] in leadership." So, for the next 5 years, you know, I spent an hour every day reading about leadership, talking to leaders, asking leaders questions, [music] practicing leadership. And when I started that process, I I was thinking 5 years. Earl Nightingale said I could become an expert in 5 years. Okay, wow, actually leadership. Thank for it. Hello. But, something happened to me about [music] halfway through that 5-year process. Instead of keeping asking myself, "How long will it take? How long [music] will it take? How long will it take?" One day, I began to realize [music] how I was growing as a leader and the change that was happening within me. And I stopped asking the question, "How [music] long will it take?" and I started asking the question, "How far can I go?" [music] Hey everybody, welcome to Impact Theory. Today's guest is a multiple-time New York Times best-selling author who has written more than 100 books that have collectively sold more than an astonishing 31 million copies. One of the world's most famous and respected speakers and coaches, he's worked with more than 6 million leaders from literally every single country on Earth. His works have been translated into 50 languages and he's coached the presidents of nations and an untold number of business leaders, including many Fortune 500 executives. He's a recipient of the Horatio Alger Award and the Mother Teresa Prize for Global Peace and Leadership from the Luminary Leadership Network. The American Management Association recognized him as the number one leader in business and both Inc. Magazine and Business Insider named him the most influential leadership expert in the world and he's been voted the top leadership professional six years in a row on leadershipgurus.net. Additionally, he's founded multiple nonprofit organizations designed to make positive impact through leadership the world over. So, please help me in welcoming the man that Toastmasters International awarded with their prestigious Golden Gavel and who Amazon inducted into their Authors Hall of Fame, the leadership expert, John C. MAXWELL. THERE IT IS. WELCOME. WELCOME. WELCOME. Good to be with you. Dude, it is so good to have you. The first book of yours that I read was Sometimes You Win and Sometimes You Learn and that literally changed the direction of how I thought about failures and mistakes and just opened up a whole new world for me and your new book on leadership is really fantastic about how to get the multiplication effect from creating other leaders and I'd love to start with what exactly is leadership? Well, you know, Tom, uh leadership's just influence. In fact, I say it's really nothing more or it's nothing less. You You show me a person that influences others and I'll show you a person that leads them. Uh so many people think leadership's title or position and uh you may be a leader that has a title position, but many people who have great influence really don't have that. But uh I just learned very early that if I could teach a person how to increase their influence, then I would help that person become a better leader. So, we just kind of deal in the leadership influence world and uh it works really well. What's interesting is reading your books and hearing you talk about your strategies, but then seeing you come in today. So, you say that you're in the people business. You tell a really great story about how one of your leaders had walked by a group of people and not said anything um and you taught him, you you that that was a a real missed opportunity. And then when you came in today, you literally went to each person and introduced yourself. What is that power of connection? Well, I think first of all, it's valuing people. Uh you know, you have a incredible incredible work here and every person here in this studio makes it happen. And um one is too small of a number to achieve greatness and and the moment that you understand that the people that you have around you, they're you know, they're either they're your number one asset or to be honest with you, they could be your number one liability. But the moment that you understand that and begin to value people, I think that is what creates the connection. Because the moment that um I think we all know. Don't you Tom think Don't you think you know when a person values you and and when a person doesn't value you? And and so I think that giving value to people and expressing that to them is the common ground that builds relationships. And so, yeah, when I came in the studio, I wanted to meet everybody because you've got an incredible successful program and I want to meet the people who help you be who you are. I love that. Well, okay, you're so obsessed with leadership and you've been doing this for a long time, traveling all over the world. Correct. It's pretty extraordinary and to go from starting in a small town as a pastor to what you've accomplished now, what is it that drives you? Well, in 1974, I came to the conclusion that everything rises and falls on leadership. Now, the reason I did that is because I started off as a pastor and by the time I was um 28, I had the 10th largest church in America. Woah. And so people would come to me and say, "Well, how did you do this?" And I came to the conclusion that I learned leadership. I was a good leader. And and the day that I became convinced that everything rises and falls on leadership is the day I said that's what I'm going to give my life to. Because think about it. If that is true that in the in the business world and the in the education world and the in the government world and in every world if you can just help people lead better you're going to help them be more successful. And when I wrote the um 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership that first law, the law of the lid Mhm. which basically says how well you lead determines how well you succeed. I truly believe that. And so what better thing can I do than to help people increase their influence, learn how to lead better so that they can be more successful in whatever area of life they really want to be successful in. So one thing that I love about you is when people ask you if leaders are born or if they can be made that um you make it pretty clear that first of all, yes, they're born, of course. Um but that they can be made. Did you just take to it naturally? Did you have a mentor? Like how did you I mean at 28 have the 10th largest church? That's pretty extraordinary. Well, I I think first of all, I think there are people who would be born with what I would call leadership leanings. They would have a a tendency to lean or be gifted in that area. Just like somebody's gifted in music or whatever. So I think that that that starts it and I think I have that. But then I I I grew up in a leader's home. In fact, my father is 98, still living. Woah. And in fact, until 2 years ago was still working full-time and and was a terrific leader. So I grew up in a culture and environment of leadership. And so when I look at myself where I am today so much of it was caught from from not only my father, but I've had great mentors throughout my life. In fact, while we're out here in Los Angeles, you know, every time I come out here I think of John Wooden who mentored me for the last probably 11 years of his life. Woah. And um in fact, when you're when you talked about the sometimes you win, sometimes you learn. Uh he he he did the forward on that book. And and he just loved the idea of of of how to get back up after after you fail. So, when you look at my home background, uh the leadership experiences that I had, because a person learns to lead by practicing leadership. And at a very early age, I was practicing leadership. And so, it all comes together. And then when I began to realize everything rises and falls on leadership, I became really intentional, Tom, of developing my leadership skills. So, I can remember, for example, I was probably, I don't know, maybe 26. I heard Earl Nightingale say on a tape that uh if you had spent 1 hour a day, every day, on one subject for 5 years, you could become an expert on that subject. So, I said, "Wow, I I want to become an expert in leadership." So, for the next 5 years, you know, I spent an hour every day reading about leadership, talking to leaders, asking leaders questions, practicing leadership. But I really was consistent. And when I started that process, I I was thinking 5 years. Earl Nightingale said I could become an expert in 5 years. Okay, wow, actually leadership expert. Hello. And and and so, I kept, you know, I was kind of like doing countdown. 5 years, 4 years, 3 years. I'm thinking I'm Cape Canaveral, okay. But something happened to me about halfway through that 5-year process. Instead of keeping asking myself, "How long will it take? How long will it take? How long will it take?" One day I began to realize how I was growing as a leader and the change that was happening within me. And I stopped asking the question, "How long will it take?" and I started asking the question, "How far can I go?" And everything changed that day. I realized that you can set goals and have 5-year goals, whatever, but but I I I changed from a goal mindset to a growth mindset. And the fact that if I would be intentional in the areas of growth that would have the return and and would fit who I was, then I could really be successful and help a lot of people. And and that was a kind of a shift for me. And so when I wrote my first leadership book, I thought I would write one leadership book and I'd be done. I I you know, I didn't think 100 books later I I had a lady the other day said, "You've written more books than I've ever read in my life." You know what I mean. But I didn't have any intention to write a lot of books. I but but growth allows you to continue to expand yourself and your world until there's just, you know, so much more that you know and so much more that you want to share. So, you know, my journey has been really one of of understanding that that if I every day intentionally grow, the question is just how you know, how far can I go? And I I don't know that answer. I'm still I'm still growing. I'm still I'm still moving towards that finish line. No, I love that. So, you talk a lot about how I think you called it the 70-20-10 principle of how we learn. So, the vast majority of what we learn, we learn by actually doing. Um and and I love the way that you detail that in the book. So, for somebody who wants to become a better leader, especially if they're in a company that doesn't necessarily foster that, how do they get that practice? How do they do those reps? Well, first of all, a lot of companies don't foster leadership. It They don't have a leadership environment. They'll come and say, "I love your leadership principles, but but you know, I'm not a leader because I don't have the position." In fact, I wrote a book several years ago called the 360-degree leader, and I wrote it for that person that, you know, kind of is in the middle of you how how to influence or lead people above you, you know, besides you and you know, kind of around you at 360 idea. Helping them understand that that the key to leading people, even if you're not in a leadership environment, is again influence. So, the question now comes down, then how do I influence people? And if I do influence people, how do I increase that influence? And my answer is very simple. We increase the influence with people when we intentionally add value to them on a consistent basis. Because if you think about Tom, think about people in your life that have a high influence on your life. They've really added a lot of value to you. And so what what I share, I do a little simple formula that kind of works. And that is every day, again, I'm you know, consistency compounds. So you put consistency with intentionality. And you've got a powerful combination. So every day, every day I basically do five things. Every day, first of all, I value people. Uh it begins there. Because if I don't truly value people, I won't add value to them. You don't add value to people that you don't value. You don't add value to anything you don't value. So every day I value people. That's where it starts. But then every day I I think of ways to add value to people. So I mean, I'll look at my calendar and I look at my agenda today and I realize I was going to be with you. And and I think, well, okay, how can I add value to you? Uh what can I do for Impact Theory that'll, you know, just help? Because again, if you're constantly adding value to people, you're going to be of great value to people. So okay, I value people, think of ways to add value to people. Then I look for ways to add value to people. When I'm in the setting, I'm looking for, okay, what can I do? What can I say? And and but we we we what we see is what we look for. And so if I'm looking to add value, guess what? I'll see ways to add value to it. Somebody else might be beside you, not add value at all to you. But but but I look for ways, and then number four, I I I do things that add value to people. And then number five, I encourage others to add value to people. And I've just lived that simple formula. I do that every day in my life. It's very simple. And I try to help other people do that, understanding that if they do that, wherever they are, leadership culture, not a leadership culture, doesn't really matter, they'll begin to influence and begin to lead people and they'll begin to make a difference in people's lives. And I think that's essential, but I think you have to be intentional. And I think you have to be consistent. Consistency compounds. I'm 72. And I've been doing leadership for 50 years. And so when people say, "Well, how did you become a leadership guru?" and all these things that you got, I I tell them it's just consistency. So, for those people that are learning the 360° leadership, they're not necessarily somewhere that's making these opportunities readily available for them. Um other than just adding value, where can they go to learn what are principles of leadership that they should be um taking in in the sort of abstract learning that they can then apply? Well, I think that there are several things. First of all, uh for in the beginning, I I couldn't find anybody to mentor me in leadership. I mean, they didn't know who I was. And so books became my mentors. And then I did something that I just encourage everybody to do. I've done this for 40 years. Is is I began to have what I call learning lunches. And um I love to in your in your green room, your your statement on on on learning. I just love it. But But I I would go out. I would take somebody like you, Tom, out and and I you know, I'd buy the lunch. I didn't even eat. I just had questions. And and and I would ask you uh leadership questions. And and I would What are some of your go-to leadership questions? Well, I the the the first question is I I always look at somebody and I ask them, you know, "Tell me about your greatest failure." And the reason I ask that is because I think that the character of a person comes out of their failures, not out of their success. And I think that the uh bedrock part of foundation of leadership is character. And you build on it. And so I I want to know about, you know, what what what tell me about a mess up in your life. And I've had so many of them. I mean, the when people ask me that question, it's kind of like, you know, which one do I pull out? But I really like to talk to people about their losses. Because it it it it it just really tells me a lot about who the person really is. I I'm not sure success I'm not sure success does, but I know failure does. So, I ask that question I ask I ask one of the questions I ask them is who do you know that I should know? And that's led me to meet some incredible people in my life that somebody else opened the door that I wouldn't have. So, I just find that in asking questions. I in fact I wrote a book one time, Good Leaders Ask Great Questions. I just find in asking questions uh that's the way that I I can grow and develop myself the best. And I tell leaders all the time that um before you lead people, you got to find them. And I think this is a big miss in leadership. We just assume people are already on our page and so we just start leading and we've never found them. And I so I think there's a finding and in these Give me a little more detail on that. So, you're talking about finding what they want, what they like, Yeah, I find I find who they are. You know, the the expression Tom um uh it's lonely at the top. That's not a leadership expression, although people say it all the time in the context of leadership. I In fact, I tell people all the time, if you're lonely at the top, it's not a leadership issue, it's just the fact you're dysfunctional. But if you think about it, if you're lonely at the top, no one's with you, no one's following you. I mean, that's a hiker, not a leader. And and I think one of the things that leaders need to do one of the first things is they need to get off the top. That's interesting. What do you mean by that? Well, I I think that it's if if the leader, I don't ask you to come to where I am. I go to where you are. I get on your ground because people are more secure in the areas that they're that they're comfortable. And so, I always go to where they live and who they are and and begin a relationship with them and and ask questions and and and get to know them. Just get to know them because um you know, uh managers try to lead everybody the same. Whereas leaders understand that you lead everyone differently. You and you lead them according to their temperament, according to their passion, according to their giftedness. I mean, there are about a dozen things that you lead them according that is unique to every individual. And so, the only way I can lead you correctly, Tom, is to know you so I I know what you care about and and and I know what you value. And the moment I do that, then I put all my leadership with you in context of who you are, not who I am. So, finding people really means to intentionally um value them and show that you value them by um learning about them and and and getting to know them and doing Then you lead them with their best interest in mind, which is a a beautiful way to lead people. I want to go back to what you were talking about with character. Are there particular things that you believe every person should have to build a strong or I'm not sure what the right word would be, meaningful character. I think character mainly is developed out of adversity. Um I I know in my life uh it's been in my failures that um that I've discovered myself. And it's been in my failures I've discovered things that I really probably do well. It's also been in my failure failures things that I've discovered about myself that I thought discovery though or is it like can you build your character? Oh, I think you build it off of it, but I think you have to discover first. I I think awareness is always on the front end. Uh you you can't grow yourself if you don't know yourself. So, I think awareness is huge. You have to be aware of of of yourself. Uh strengths, weaknesses, you know, the whole deal. And once you're aware of yourself, then you have to take your giftedness and and and and and maximize your strengths, and then you have to make the right choices. And but awareness is on the front end, and we don't hear a lot about awareness. How can you develop awareness? Well, first of all, I think you need other people's help. That's interesting. I I I I hear people all the time say, "Well, I think I'm very self-aware." And I always get abused for that because we're not. You know, we all have blind spots. I have blind spots. So, if there's any self-awareness for me, it's because I've had somebody speak into my life. And and one more thing on character, okay? I was I was having an interview with a uh major CEO of a of a large large software company. And so, I asked him, I said, "Talk to me about your failures like I do in my learning lunches." This was on an executive circle call where I was on the phone and and other executives were listening in. So, I said, "Talk to me about your failures." I said, uh "What would you like to go in your life and do over? You know, get the do over. So, what what what what's your top do over?" And he said something very interesting to me. He said, "Well, he said I've I've made I've had failures and I've had a lot of mistakes, made some wrong decisions. But I don't think I want to do any of them over." I said, "You're kidding me." "You mean if you could go back and correct a failure or mistake, you wouldn't want to go back and correct it?" He said, "No." He said, "The lessons I learned out of my failures probably are a lot more valuable than if I'd have just made a successful decision and moved on." He said, "Who I am today is based upon not having do-overs and and learning out of my adversity and difficulties and struggles and darkness. And I thought it was a fantastic answer. It really talked to me a lot. And and I thought to myself, I think that's a perfect example of leaders building character out of their failure and out of their uh adversity. Going back to what you were saying about asking the right questions, part of just being a good leader is the questions that you ask. Talk to me about a U-turn leader. Oh, yes. Um I love what you say about how to to really get something going in a new direction. Well, I think that the if somebody said, "John, what is a What is the acid test of a of a great leader?" I I think that it's it's a U-turn leader. And I use the word uh U-turn uh Tom in in the fact that you take something that's going down. In other words, the ship's sinking. And so you you grab a hold of it and you slow that going south down. And and finally, you kind of bottom it out and so it's no longer losing. It's probably not gaining. It's just trying to hang on. And then as a leader, you begin to turn it and begin to bring it back up. I think that's the greatest indication that you know how to lead. In fact, I'm not sure anybody uh proves their leadership until they until they get something that's not doing well and they turn it around. What role does competency have in leadership? Like at some point, surely you actually have to be good as well. You can't just be sort of this facilitator. Yeah, it's it's kind of like a a surgeon who just has great relationship skills, but hey, but they're not competent as a surgeon. You know, I I I want I want to get the very best. I think competence and skill set is is what's developed over years of practice and and implementing and applying to your life. And and again, I think that's those are things that you learn through experience. I think those are things that you learn through mentoring. Um and so when I when I look at my skill set as a leader today compared to when it started, it's been incredibly improved, but it would not have been been improved if I wouldn't have practiced leadership. It would not have been improved if I wouldn't have learned from my leadership experiences. Because I think this is another myth. I think you know, experience is not the best teacher. Go on. Yeah. Yeah, it's not here but we hear it all the time. In fact, I used to say experience is the best teacher and then one day I woke up and said, "That's a stupid statement, John." If experience was the best teacher, then it's everybody got older, everybody get better. And yet I know a lot of people they're getting older and they're not getting better. Yeah. And and so I stop and I say, "Okay, it's not the experience that's the best teacher, it's evaluating that experience." That's interesting. It's you know, reflection turns experience into insight. So how do we get good at that? It well, we get good at that by understanding that experience isn't enough. The point being is is is is that after every experience, I have to pull away. And I have to ask myself, "Okay, what did I learn from that?" Because there's something to teach you. In fact, when my children when we would have experiences with our children, I would always ask them two questions after every experience. "What did you learn and what did you love?" And and you know, for a kid in fact, I'd really ask them, "What did you love? What did you learn?" Because kids kind of know me, "Oh, I love that, Dad. This is This was a lot of fun." So that was kind of an easy one, but I always said and wanted them to I would say, "Now, what what did you learn from that?" Till till probably by the time they were 10, after every experience, they'd just say, "Okay, here's what I loved and here's what I learned." Well, what I taught my children to do is evaluate every experience because um if I don't stop and reflect and evaluate out of that experience, I will do the same thing next time. And And that's not what is where the growth is. The growth is always in learning and evaluating. And not only evaluating, but in in you know, learning is overrated unless you improve. So, I mean, I you know, it's it's more than what did I just learn out of that? What What do I do out of that that I improve my life with and And I think that that's a I think that's a big miss, also. Mhm. That's so interesting. So, in the book you really go into detail and I'd actually like to dive into this part of it now about how to cultivate other leaders. And as I was reading it, I was like, "Man, there's there's an element of this where it's like you you even say it in the book." I was literally like, "Oh, please tell me he addresses this." Where Okay, you have the leadership table, you're giving people the chance to be a leader, but some people don't get invited to the leadership table. And so, how do you deal with that? Like, how do you keep the organization functional? How do you say the hard things? You know, if somebody has a blind spot at a minimum, if they're not effective, you can't have them at the leadership table. So, like, how do you manage that? Well, first of all, I I think it's fair to say that everybody should have an invitation to the leadership table. Because it's the table It's at the table where you learn about each other. So, tell everybody what the leadership table is. Well, the leadership table It's a phrase I use to let everybody sit down and just like you come to a table to have a meal or you go to a table to play a game, here you come to the table to sit with other leaders. And at that table, uh you're going to the discussion's going to be leadership. And And they're going to be talking about uh decisions they're having to make. They're going to be asking questions about things that they need to do as a leader. And so, you're in this leadership environment where uh and and you're going to participate and you're going to be able to ask questions and and you're probably going to be given a project, you know, let's okay, now that the table's done today, let's go out and do this. But what happens is that that leadership table, everybody ought to be able to come there, but that doesn't mean everybody's going to stay there. Because there are some people who come to the table and and they just aren't to the capacity yet where they need to be. And so, um that's where you get into what I call the, you know, the tough conversations. And and what I say to people all the time um is that um is that I care enough for you to be honest with you. In our John Maxwell company, we do a lot of corporate training with the five levels of leadership. And in the five levels of leadership, level number two is relationships, the connecting factor, but level number three is production. And anybody that's got it know that it's one thing to be a friend and and and it's good to be together, it's even good to work together, but you know, but you do have to produce. That we got to have some results down the road. And so, that's a big gap for many people to go from a relationship level to a leadership level where I now we we've got to get you to become effective and fruitful. And I think that if I truly value you as a person, I I'm going to share with you how you can improve. And and and and and it's one thing to say I don't like what you're doing, but it's more more important to say there's some things you're going to have to do to improve there. And I think you ought to always give people a path to improvement. And then it's their decision. You know, the the two questions you ask all the time, can he or can she or or and will he or will will she, you know, you know, can the person is all about competence and ability, Will is probably more about about attitude. But what we've discovered is that is that it's very important to keep an authenticity and an honesty. And I think it's also very important for the leader to share um their difficulties. And I was I was with Johnson & Johnson one time speaking to about 100 presidents of companies. It was kind of like an appreciation day by Johnson & Johnson. So they brought in all the companies they work with and so it was a what they call a president's day. And I was telling the presidents I said, "Now, you need to go home or go back to your offices and share with the people your weaknesses." And oh, that room just bowed right up. I It was so much fun. I mean I mean they were just resist us. I mean they were stiff-arming me big time. So I called a little break and said, "I'll sign some books." And so I had a a CEO standing beside me while I'm signing books and he's not happy. You know, it's it's a rain cloud for sure. And um So finally they all left and he said, "You know, I really disagree with you about telling people about your weaknesses." He said that he said, "You you And then he gave me this kind of old-time leadership talk about you never let them see you flinch, you know?" And so he So I'm letting kind of go through this process. It was, you know, I could be a therapist for a day. So when he finished I said, "I think you're operating your leadership under a misunderstanding." He said, "What what misunderstanding that be?" I said, "You think your people don't know your weaknesses." Word. They already know about The fact they're talking about it. But I said the reason I want you to go back and share your weaknesses with your people is so that you they know that you know. It'll make them just feel a lot Oh, thank God he knows. You know, he knows. But I think that they're I think that even in being having the difficult conversations with people, um I think it that when you're open with your own areas of that you're working on, I think that's really I think that's very I think that's very important. And in fact, we one of the things that we teach in our companies is um have upfront expectations. Mhm. And I learned a long time ago, again, as uh we all the things I'm teaching now is because I did them wrong in the beginning. It's It's not like I have this wisdom. It's like if you do it wrong, you either keep doing it wrong and never build anything or else you change. And and when I started off, I was very relational. So, I wouldn't have tough conversations with people. I thought, "How I'll friendship them through the process." And and then I realized that's uh and and and So, we just teach our people to have upfront expectations. And basically, we just sit down and say, "Tom, I'm glad you're going to join the team. Now, uh we're going to have some tough conversations down the road. It's That's going to happen. Don't Today, it's a kind of like a high-five day, but but we'll have days when when we just have to sit down, look at each other, and and and deal with some issues. And I just think that if you tell people up on the front end, then when you have them, it's not so personal. I mean, it's personal, but at least they knew that it was coming. I think leaders uh leaders prepare their people for uh not only the good days and and the touchdowns, but for the adversity, also. No doubt about it. All right, let's get really specific. What are some of the keys to fostering the growth of leaders within your organization? First of all, I think that Tom, I think 90% of leaders never develop leaders. I think they just have followers. Mhm. And one of the reasons is a lot of leaders don't really want other leaders. Leaders are hard to lead. I mean, it's like herding cats. You know what I mean? They just don't They just don't naturally fall in line. So, so I I think that first of all, most people don't really develop leaders. But but in developing leaders, you know, there are three things that are just absolutely essential. And um you know, in the book The Leader's Leader's Greatest Return, I wrote The leader's greatest return because I truly believe that the greatest return ever a leader ever gets is developing other leaders because that's when you really begin to compound. And I think there are three three essentials always in developing leaders. First of all is is your own example. Um people do what people see. So, if I'm going to develop leaders, I have to be a good leader. Maybe the greatest leadership words ever said was follow me. Just just follow me. Watch me because people in what several research says 89% of what we know, we know visually. That's interesting. And and so, I I think first of all in developing leaders, you have to model it. The second thing I think in developing leaders is you have to be intentional. I think that um uh you have to uh commit yourself to uh finding them, which I talk about in the book, letting them come to the leadership table, uh discerning what kind of capacity they have. And then I think you have to intentionally have a a program of development for them. I think you have to have a process. I think of all the money we spend in companies in in marketing and in advertising and and and you know, I was I was speaking one time. This is several years ago for AT&T and uh when I got was introduced to their maybe top 300 leaders. I was going to spend an afternoon with them. Uh the guy said something very interesting. He said to them, he said, "You're our most appreciable asset." And of course, that's a wonderful statement there. Everybody loves that. And I and I came up behind him and I said, "It's true and it's not true." I said, "You're really only an appreciable asset if somebody intentionally develops you and you intentionally develop yourself. We We don't automatically get better." And this is a big miss. I think that we think, "Well, if I just automatically go to work or if I automatically do my job, then I'll just grow." And and you know, I had a mentor when I was in my 20s, just say, you know, John, growth is not automatic. You know, getting older is automatic. But, but getting better isn't. And And there's a lot world of difference. So, I think that you have to be an example, and then I think you have to be incredibly intentional in saying, okay, I'm going to have a leadership culture. I'm going to have I'm going to I I I I'm going to develop leaders. And the third thing I think that is just overlooked consistently in development is is that you you you've got to empower them. You You have got to um let them run the ball. Because the only way you learn leadership is by practicing leadership. So, I think what a good leader does is he sets the or she sets the stage for a successful run. You want to get some wins under their belts for them. And uh I just think that it's an empowering environment where you release people. And And I the problem is leaders will stop and say, well, but they don't do it as well as I do it. And And so, that's not the point. The only way they can ever do it as well as that you you do it is for them to do it. And then for you to coach them and come alongside of them and and and and say, okay, here's how you can do that better. And you know, we have a kind of like a five-step equipping process. I do it. I do it, you're with me. You do it, I'm with you. You do it, and then you do it and someone else is with you. And it's a multiplication process there. So, I think those three things of the example, the intentionality, and the empowerment, that's I think what develops a leadership culture that really establishes the fact that if you want to learn how to lead, this is a place where, you know, where you where you can do that. I say this in the book, by the way. Um that when I would bring people on the team, I would share with them that I wanted them to work themselves out of a job. Yeah. And And And And pretty much I would just say, okay, you've got the job. I want you to do it well. Let me see you do it well. But while you're doing it well, you find somebody to replace replace you. And and and that's how you Well, that's really how you develop Well, you talk about a a farm team of leaders. And and if if if you can work yourself out of your job, I'll give you another job. You know, uh Mark Cole who he and I are are owners of the company now and he's the CEO and president, but he started off in in the stock room 20 years ago. Woah. 20 years ago. And I was just asking him recently in a conversation, I said, "How many jobs did you work your way out of to get where you are?" He said, "Nine. Nine Nine times." And I tell people, "First of all, I can't promote you unless you got somebody to replace you." So, the first part of promotion isn't just getting better till they want to bring you up. First part promotion is to show me some person that we're not going to have a big loss if I do bring you up. And you know, nine times he worked himself out of out of a job, found somebody else, and so, "Okay, come on up. Come on up. Come on up." until one day he's he's he's where he is. Not bad. That's very impressive. All right, there's two people I would be remiss if we don't get to before the end of this interview. One is Claude. So, why don't we start there? Tell me about Claude. That was such a great insight in terms of how many different flavors leadership can take and it's ultimately just about being effective. And and then of course the person that took over that church after you and how it went south. Wow. You read the book. [applause] Yay top. You read the book. Well, this isn't my first church, okay? So, I I have very little leadership experience. And my the bylaws me being the pastor of the church, the bylaws Tom said that I was the chairman of the board, which I thought meant that I was the leader. So, I went to my first little This was a little country church, a place called Hillham, okay? Nobody's ever heard of Hillham. So, I'm way out in the country, way out, just farmers. So, we have about five people in our little board meeting, and I go in to be the chairman of the board, and you know, and and these farmers don't have a clue what the chairman of the board is, which means basically I open the meeting, and and and so I I course I never was instructed on how to have a board meeting. I mean, I just graduated with a degree, and they never taught me anything that would be practical and helpful. So, I thought, "Well, what you know, what do I do?" So, I I looked at it and I said, "Well, uh does anybody have anything they'd like to share?" Well, there was one farmer, his name was Claude, and he'd say, "Well, yeah, John." He said, uh I I think that we need to paint the front door. He said, you know, "It's cracked, peeling." And he said, "People come up, and they see that door, I think we need to you know, we need to take off the old paint and paint the door." And there was a guy sat right beside him named Benny. And Benny would second everything that Claude would suggest. So, So, Benny would say it, and Benny or Claude would say it, Benny would suggest it, and everybody said, "Aye." And I'm just kind of watching them, and and then Claude says, "Well, there's a second thing we need to be doing." And he talked about the two rooms behind the the the platform area, and and that we needed some more Sunday school space, and we needed to clean them out cuz they had junk. And so, he said and and you know, Benny seconds it, and everybody And so, anyway, I'm I'm watching all this. I'm just 22 years old. I'm I'm just a kid. I'm watching all this. And finally, Benny looks at me, said, "Well, he said, 'Pastor,' he said, 'uh I think we're done tonight.'" He said, "You can close in prayer." So, you know, thank you, God. And I walked out of that meeting, and so, you know, when I got home, Aris said, "Well, how'd it go?" And I said, "Wow, I said, 'I learned a lot tonight.'" And she said, "What'd you learn?" I said, "Well, I only need two people." She said, "What's that?" She said, "I need God and Claude." You know, and it just seems like that's the way it works there. And and then and and so, Claude was a farmer. And so, about a week before the next board meeting, I called him. I said, "Claude, can I come down and just hang with you while I do some chores today?" Oh, he said, "I'd love that." So, I did. And I went down to Claude and I'd say, you know, I I I I would I would make a suggestion of something that would need to be done and Claude would say, "I I like that." He said, "That's a good idea." I said, "Would you bring that up to the the board next Tuesday night?" He said, "Sure, I'll take I'll take care of that. Take care of that." And literally, I was there for 3 years and 3 months. So, we we went just from a handful of people to over 300, which is big in that community. And uh I I never brought a In 3 years and 3 months, I never brought an item to the to the board. I I just would open up the meeting and ask if anybody had anything on their heart and Claude would say it and Benny would second it and everybody would vote. [laughter] And I I kind of go, "Huh. Good board meeting. Good morning." So, So, So, I did that for 3 years and 3 months. And and it was there, by the way, that I learned that leadership was influence, not title or position. Cuz I had the title, I had the position, I just didn't have any influence. I'm just a kid. Those farmers aren't going to listen to me. So, I'm going to go to my second church and uh and so a guy named Danny that I went to college with me was going to be the pastor. So, I took him to the Villager Inn restaurant. And I said I said, "Look, I said, this has been a great place to start. I mean, these people These are farmers. They're just simple people. They were good to me and we've grown from 3 to 300 and it's it's been great." I said, I you know, it's not you're going to have the church, not mine, but I said I I just want to give you one just one leadership thought. So, I told him about Claude. And how I worked with Claude. And And the more I was talking to him, I'll never forget I mean, Danny's sitting up there and I mean, he's getting ready. He's not very happy, boy. And And And suddenly, I finally I closed it and kind of that conversation and he looked at me and said, "Look," he said, "I'm not going to do it that way." He said, "I'm the leader of the church, not Claude. And Claude needs to know his place. And I just want you to know right now that I'm not going down the farm." And And And he started talking. And I I remember sitting back in that booth at the Villager Inn and just silent. I didn't say it to him. I'm just looking at him and I'm saying to myself, "You're looking at a stupid man." And sure enough, he he did it his way and he lasted 8 months. Lasted 8 months and and sadly, the church went down some. But But But it was a it's a it's a it's a classic leadership story of of again, understanding who has the influence and and influence the influencer. It does You know, you don't have to You don't have to get all the credit. Just But he never learned He never learned that. He went from that to He He I think he went to three within two or three years and burned out. He was done. He He He was done. But But he just never really learned that a very important leadership principle. Yeah, you don't need to get the credit. I think that is super powerful. Just the result. All right. Where is the best place for them to get more of you and your teaching? Go to johnmaxwell.com. They'll find everything. Sounds good. think. And then your books are certainly easy to find. Um one last question. What's the impact that you want to have on the world? First of all, I want to This has kind of been my North Star. I I I want to add value to leaders who multiply value to others. So, I have consciously uh focused on leaders. Because if every time you impact a leader, influence a leader, it multiplies. It It compounds. Uh but my passion is to uh help uh communities and help uh people be transformed by uh living and learning great values. And so, uh this is a whole different story, but I We have uh you know, we we um we train through our one of our nonprofit organization 19 years we trained 5 million leaders in every country of the world. And now we're doing transformation in countries where we have values transformational tables what we call transformation table transformation happens one table at a time where we people six to eight sit around and and talk about values and learn good values and start to live out those good values. And um we're invited by leaders of the country presidents of the country we were in Guatemala, Puerto Rico Costa Rica and Paraguay I get ready to go to our fourth country and we have you know, we have like 1.3 million people now in round tables. Wow. And and and 135,000 facilitators of these round tables and we're just really seeing communities change and and when and we have it for we have it we have curriculum for kids. But it's all based on just good values learning it here's what we know if you learn good values and you live them out you just become more valuable to yourself and other people it's just that simple. So you know, my passion is that um is to help people experience a transformational life by embracing good values and practicing them where everybody wins and and that's the world I hope for that's the world I give my life for. Well, it's amazing. Guys 100 bucks 100 bucks this guy really is the expert on leadership you cannot go wrong I've read so many of his books every one of them has been incredibly valuable few people have shaped my thinking on leadership more than he has I cannot recommend enough getting involved in all of the stuff that he's doing. And speaking of getting involved if you haven't already be sure to subscribe and until next time my friends be legendary. Take care. John thank you so much that was incredible. Thank you Tom. Muhammad Ali said "I'm the greatest." [music] But he never won a championship without Angelo Dundee. And Michael Jordan never won a championship without Phil Jackson. So, you've got to have someone [music] that can see something in you that you can't see.