War Stories, Episode 3: A Humanitarian in a conflict zone, Afghanistan and Ukraine, 2009-2021

Welcome to the War Studies podcast. We bring you world-leading research from the School of Security Studies at King's College London, the largest community of scholars in the world dedicated to the study of all aspects of security, defense, and international relations. We explore the complex realm of conflict, but the study of war is fundamental to understanding the world we live in and the world we want to live in. >> Before we begin, a brief warning for this series content. We will be discussing the first-hand experiences of war and conflict, which may well include descriptions of traumatic events and scenarios involving severe injuries or death. These accounts are deeply personal and may be upsetting for some listeners, particularly veterans. If you find yourself becoming overwhelmed, we encourage you to pause the episode or step away entirely. For anyone impacted by these themes, support is available 24/7. In the UK, you can contact the Combat Stress Helpline at 0800 138 1619 or the NHS Op Courage service. Additional resources are linked in our show notes. >> The opinions expressed on this podcast are those of the individual interviewed and do not reflect the official views of King's College London, the School of Security Studies, or the organizations for which the individuals speaking were working at the time of the incidents discussed. >> Hello and welcome to another episode of King's College London War Studies War Stories. Hosting today myself, Nick Dening, and of course Rupert Lane. Say hello, Ru. >> Hello. >> Hello. And our guest today is Rory Moylan. And yeah, good morning, Rory. >> Hi, both. How you doing? >> Very well, thank you. Great to have you here. So far on War Studies War Stories, we've we've interviewed, I think, four soldiers and and two journalists. So, it's high time and we're very excited to speak to someone representing an NGO today. Rory's been with the International Red Cross and has been to Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and Sudan. And I think we're going to put focus on Afghanistan and Ukraine today. >> Ukraine adding to the list at the end, so >> cutting edge and and extremely topical. And um yeah, so we'll jump right into it. So, so Rory, good morning. Please, would you introduce yourself and give us an overview of your career? >> Sure. Yeah, thanks and thanks both for for having me on. I can't wait to listen to the other ones as well. Sounds Sounds like it's a great great project you've you've put together. Um so, I'm I'm Rory Mullan. I'm currently the head of region for the Middle East, North Africa, and Europe at the British Red Cross in London. Um briefly, what that means is that I oversee the partnerships we have with other national societies, so the Ukrainian Red Cross, the Lebanese Red Cross, the Palestinian Red Crescent, for example, in those two geographical areas. Um previously, I worked I started my career um at a French NGO called the Agency for Technical Cooperation and Development or ACTED. Um and then spent the bulk of my career with the International Committee of the Red Cross or the the ICRC. Um and that that's the bit that, as you say, took me kind of to to Afghanistan. Um range of roles, South Sudan, Ukraine, twice in Iraq, Libya, um and the Philippines as well. So, um so yeah, kind of quite a quite a sort of a varied path I took after after studying War Studies uh with you both between 2002 and 2005, which has made me feel extremely old to actually reflect back on exactly how long ago how long ago that that was. >> [clears throat and laughter] >> At least you've got a very strong set of hair and only gray in the bottom half, not the top half like me. >> It's It's It's coming. Yeah, it's coming. >> Time is haggling our once youthful looks. And yeah, you know, it's it's funny to reflect that you the catchment for this podcast is the is the first quarter of this century and you know, we really only just fall into that catchment. So uh Yeah, interesting times. >> worse, isn't it? Yeah. >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um but but fantastic to you and thank you for that that career summary selling. So it's a it's a it's a it's a two-parter for us today looking at Afghanistan, Mazar-i-Sharif and and Ukraine in in 2014. Um so um So for each of those, um could you start us off by giving some high-level overviews of your your role in each of those theaters of conflict, um the the sort of the the the time frames, uh where exactly you were and um and and sort of who you deployed with, what was the situation on the ground? So what was the what was the scene? >> Yeah, sure. Yeah, so it's really um so I spent 3 years in Afghanistan. Um so and it was in two two parts really. So first the the job that I had with um with ACTED. Um and I and you know, interestingly that I I wasn't drawn at first to to working in Afghanistan. I'd been working with them in Tajikistan for 6 months before that and and pretty much everyone I knew there was interested in working in Afghanistan. Um and I I found that a bit much at first. I was like, "Actually, no. I mean, that's a that's a conflict zone. I don't know what you're thinking of. You're all a bit mad." Um but ended up going and sort of like said, "Okay, I'll go for 6 months at first and we'll see see kind of how it how it runs." Um and then 3 years later. And it also just kind of really formed basically everything that came after that for me in my in my career. So the first 2 years with with ACTED I I kind of had um a range of roles but starting in in sort of proposal development basically the relations that you have with donors seeking funds for activities. Those are all projects based around a range of things but kind of vocational training for communities, local governance initiatives, health and basic infrastructure. And it was it was great. I mean roles that I really loved like the agency enjoyed it a lot liked the NGO world but also kind of came to realization that that wasn't quite what I wanted to continue doing. And through exposure I was really drawn to the work of the Red Cross and specifically to the International Committee of the Red Cross which has this this specific mandate to work in armed conflict as an independent organization connected to you know the other parts of the Red Cross movement so Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies like the British Red Cross Palestinian Red Crescent like I mentioned and many others obviously around the world. But it was that focus on conflict that really that really drew me that drew me in. Um then obviously well not obviously but yeah sort of during the first two years that I was with ACTED I also learned Dari so you know Farsi but the the Afghan Afghan dialect to a high level and that was actually one of the things that really facilitated my entry into the ICRC. They have a particular focus on on language skills basically kind of less commonly spoken languages Arabic, Farsi, Russian and so on. Um and that was that was a really kind of key key part as well of what had drawn me in. I was really really invested in Afghanistan in a kind of a personal way as well. It was yeah so I was there sort of 2000 uh 2009 through 2013. Um so when you look at what came afterwards in Afghanistan a relatively peaceful period but still incredibly violent already at that at that point. Um you know I fortunately was to have been in any sort of immediate risk or danger but it certainly happened to people I that I knew. Um and you had sort of incredibly violent moments that were happening in particularly in in kind of rural areas where the government was struggling to assert itself. I was there during a time in which the some of the NATO forces started withdrawing back to to Kabul and that left a bit of a void as well that that you would see kind of um being exploited uh pretty pretty quickly after that as well. And that obviously had a real impact on civilians. And that was again what really had drawn me to that work of the Red Cross was that willingness to make a difference inside conflict in particular. You know, so through the work that the ICRC was doing there around discussions of um how conflicts of hostilities with armed actors of all kinds, how those affect civilians, and its work in detention as well. So, visiting people detained um with a special focus on people detained for security um reasons as well and and for reasons linked to the conflict. But it's not a it's not a legal service that they provide. It's not There's never a question of why they've been detained. You're looking at um you know, why um sorry, whether they're in touch with their with their families, what their health conditions are, what the treatment is like. And you engage in in private and confidential dialogue with those authorities. So, it's not a public activity. It's not like a it's not a denouncement or an advocacy-based activity at all. And that was also one of the things that really drew me to them. It's that kind of pragmatism. You know, looking for working inside a framework, working inside the set of rules that exist, um and discussing that proactively and quietly with with authorities who you can try and make a change with. Um and that sort of that way of doing things was really really appealing to me as well. Um and then it kind of went from there, to be honest. >> You've mentioned uh what what what drew you to it a few times, but we haven't really sort of I suppose gone back to the crux of what your your personal mission was. Like what what why did you end up in you working for actors in the International Red Cross? What drew you into that space uh from a personal mission perspective and then probably just sort of cherry on the cake just if you just put more specifically what the overall aim of ACTED and ICRC in those locations was at the time you were there. >> Yeah, sure. Yeah, I mean yeah, funny I was saying in preparing for this kind of had to had to sort of go back to that time as well. I think the the why and the cause of it kind of changes over time. I think at first there's a there's probably an element of naivety to it, a simplicity, but there is just kind of throughout it a kind of a you have a desire to want to or I did so you know to be part of something bigger than yourself for one and and to help, you know, and like I said that is obviously simplistic, it's a bit naive. You don't know what that means obviously when you start out in something and I think over time you try and refine and and you gain experience in in the how of of doing that as well. Um the two organizations are are completely different. They're two they're parts of, you know, let's say the same humanitarian sector. You could classify ACTED more as a development agency effectively. I mean it has it in its name and and many NGOs would do that um looking to um yeah to to kind of build civilian opportunities, infrastructure, improve health care, you know, support a population basically and that was that was what we were what we were doing. The ICRC has a has a you know some similarities to that um but it's far more focused around being a neutral independent entity um legally mandated through the Geneva Conventions as well of course to focus on the impacts of conflict on civilians as well and that was what really particularly drew me to that. And so yeah, that personal cause um yeah, it changes over time and maybe adapts slightly, but then I was really drawn to the mission and the mandate of the ICRC and found that becoming basically kind of also the mix of the personal cause as well and and and it's always something that I've really appreciated about the work of the Red Cross is it's very clear what you're trying to do and it would be levers [clears throat] with which you're trying to to pursue that as well. Um so yeah, no that that really, like I say, it was kind of a pull and push as well that I was I suppose kind of looking for that um and then really found it in that in that work of the Red Cross as well. >> And did you And you stayed with with the the Red Cross through to the um to your time in Ukraine in 2014 um as well. And um were you on an exact a a a similar footing, a similar task set, and and and and and operational template there as well? >> Yeah, sure. I mean I I mean I left the UK in 2008 and didn't come back until 2021 >> Wow. >> actually. So that was that was that was my entire career was was that. And most of that is is then the ICRC, like I said, um from 2012. So really that that sort of chunk of time. Um The role The first roles I had were were sort of the the entry roles in the ICRC, um and there what what they call a delegate role. Um and it's basically working on two two core things, which is uh dialogue with um armed actors, militaries, non-state actors around the conduct of hostilities, and how that affects civilian population, um broadly speaking, and then around detention as well, like as I mentioned. Um and that that's you know, in Afghanistan that was a the range of facilities, both Afghan and international run. Um so I would I was responsible for visiting a range of facilities in northern Afghanistan. So um Mazar, as we mentioned, but also in the northwest, so Faryab as well, and and Sar-e Pol. So kind of covering basically northwest Afghanistan. Um and then also supported visits that we would undertake to to Bagram, the US-run facility as well, obviously, um in uh near near Kabul. Um and so I did that role for for sort of 2 years, that in Afghanistan, and then South Sudan. And then gradually sort of moved towards more management positions. Um so you still have the same organizational mandate, but you're then not directly involved in those um in those detention and dialogue um activities that I that I described. Um and sort of gradually started taking on the kind of, you know, office management basically. By that, you will have um a you know, a um a a team in a particular area of a country where you're working. So in Ukraine, I was in Sloviansk in the Donbass. Um and you have a range of activities that you're implementing in support of the civilian population. So you still have those detention activities, those discussions with um in this case the Ukrainian armed forces. Um you also have um health, water infrastructure, um prosthetics, um you know, a massive service that we provide in terms of um what we call restoring family links, which is basically tracing. So looking for people who are um missing through the through the through conflicts in in particular. Um and looking to to to find reconnect them with their with their families. Um and so yeah, that that that role sort of shifted. And and that was then the career path that I that I took. So sort of um increasing levels of of seniority and managing different managing teams in in different in different places. So yeah, I'm in Sloviansk in Ukraine was was one. Um Mosul was was probably another really significant one for me as well in in Iraq. >> Understood. When you think about your specific situation on ground, if we spoke focus on was our Sharif and um Sloviansk. Like what does the team look like? Uh what Yeah, it is a conflict zone, so what protection do you have? Do you embed with local forces or do you operate independently? Do you require independent protection? Um yeah, how does that work? What's the team look like? How are you accommodated on in the ground? Are you in a military base or are you independently living within the community? >> Yeah, sure. Um so yeah, on the team, it depends a bit on where you are Um and and because you're obviously going to tailor to what the need is as well, you know, so your services, let's say you the assistance you're providing to a civilian population won't look exactly the same. Um but I'm and and very fortunate to have worked for an organization that that is well-resourced, often well-funded and has, you know, you have a massive machine behind you, you know, and um so, you know, you would you would be working with doctors, engineers, uh you know, we have medical surgical teams that you can deploy, you know, into emergency settings. Um you have, you know, weapons contamination experts that you can consult. You have people who are um IHL, you know, international humanitarian law lawyers and professionals. Like you have this whole range of of resources and support that you can draw on and and obviously deploy. Um prosthetics that I mentioned as well. So, you've got this massive machine behind you. Um when I worked in South Sudan, you know, we had like Antonov cargo planes to bring our stuff in. Like, you know, you have this huge operation that can really support behind you depending on where you are and what the what the need is as well. So, those teams would look very different. You're obviously a mix as well of um international staff members um and and and national staff as well as we would say. So, you know, local staff members, people from the country where you're working. Um and so, that will really kind of depend. The size of the team also depend on the scale of the need, the humanitarian need that you're facing. Worked with teams from between, you know, sort of 40 and 200 depending on the on the scale of things as well. Um Then on on your question around sort of like how you kind of keeping yourself safe and so on. I mean, well, it's it it's kind of none of what you asked, basically. You know, it's it's you are just kind of on your own. You your protection is a range of things. Um and I think it's it's first and foremost it's kind of your the the principles and the way that you work. So, frankly, you know, like are you acting in a way and are you behaving in a way that people then see as matching your words? You know, you say you will be independent, impartial, neutral. Do they see you Do they see you doing that? So, there's no armed escort, there's no armed protection. Um you make sure you have good contacts with everyone that you need to to access any area where civilians require that support. So, that's going to be government, non-government as well. You know, depending where you are. And you basically have to do that. And that's that's what that That's what that looks like. That's also what drives that um private and confidential dialogue as well. So that, you know, you are known as as a as an actor and an organization that isn't talking to everyone about what they discussed with you as well. So, there's you know, so we would have um You would take depending on obviously on the on the place where you are, you take some basic security considerations. Um you know, when I was in Afghanistan, you you live in a in a in a compounds. You know, it's it's But it's not with, you know, kind of huge security walls and barbed wire and so on. What you're relying on is that you are accepted. And that you are wanted there and you are trusted. Um that doesn't rule out that that can't change. It doesn't rule out that you can't be in the wrong place, wrong time. Um you know, that things happen around you. You know, I I've had friends who were um yeah, more than more than one who were in IED incidents because they were you know, the ones who were Yeah, they were passing a military convoy. The military convoy obviously jammed it and they got hit by it, you know. And they were just really lucky. Um or, you know, complex attacks that happen in Kabul. And it's happening where you are, but it's not it's not aimed at you obviously as well. That said, you're obviously still as teams and organization and the humanitarian sector widely is put it you put yourself into kind of dangerous environments as well. You obviously take lots of precautions on taking security advice. Um as I said, from military and armed actors of whether it's a good good idea for you to be going on that particular day. Um but things can obviously still happen. You know, there's there's colleagues that you lose and that's that's that's happened to me. Um Um and it and it's one of you know, it's it's it's kind of a dangerous world for humanitarian workers as well. You know, the Palestine Red Crescent have lost 30 staff in the last few years uh delivering medical assistance and because they work in a dangerous environment. They take precautions they can, but they there's still things that obviously obviously can still happen. But it's those yeah, those kind of principles that you try and frame yourself around as an organization that are I think what what is the foundation of that as well and that you are seen as um you know, non-political. Um and you are there to to kind of serve um you know, civilians and and those who need assistance in conflict. And I think interestingly for the Red Cross as well, we have a natural connection also to armed forces, you know, so that's and that's kind of baked into our foundation and history as well. Um and there's a there's a there's a comfort with that as as an organization as well and then there's also you know, so some of those services that I'm describing would you know, would also apply to um to to military actors as well. You know, I mean, it's a current example, but in Ukraine we run um a particular program between the British Red Cross and the ICRC um which is supporting the Central Burns Hospital of Kyiv. And that supports civilians and soldiers as well and obviously you see a lot of soldiers who pass through that as as well. We bring NHS specialists from the UK to support that. The ICRC help us run the operation of that. Um and that's something that is you know, it is for anyone who is no longer involved in in conflict basically. It's civilian need in that sense. >> It gives a lot of flavor and yeah, it just There's a lot that that we could probably talk for hours on just that idea of sort of consent and and law being your being your protection as you go around sort of unarmed in these in these spaces, which is which is something that a sort of former soldier has got quite hard to imagine. Um so it's absolutely fascinating. I guess the next question for me is you know, how did that work? So if we if we zoomed in on on Mazār, you got your team there, you must have a a litany of potential tasks that that you guys can take on. The sort of the the the the list of welfare and and and and and health and well-being concerns that could be tackled must have been absolutely enormous. So So how does how does the team prioritize and >> and execute against that list? What does that actually look like on the day-to-day and what was your part in the plan? >> Yeah, I mean and and again, Mazār, you know, I was I was still more junior in my career in both those organizations. So I was um thankfully not in charge of of managing the security at that point. I think that would have been probably a bit early. Um and and then on on sort of how you define operations and response, um might link that also to kind of you know, that that idea we had around well, what's the cause and what motivates you as well and this you you realize you have to find your your lane. You have to find your space in doing that as well. You're one of many organizations. In that time in Afghanistan, I mean it was you know, there was a lot of money being pumped into every element of of what was happening in Afghanistan at the time, whether that was obviously military security, local governance, um you know, NGO reform, development. There was a huge amount of money being being pumped in through a range of agencies. So you're one of many. So you have to find the areas where you think you have the most value. Generally for the for the Red Cross, that's that's in the hardest to reach areas. That's actually where as an organization we tend to really I mean, we're writing our own review here, but I think that's where we excel. We're not the only ones, but we do we do well in that. You know, obviously the ICRC would prioritize that, but also here, you I need to mention the way that we would have worked and we did in Afghanistan with the Afghan Red Crescent who, you know, they have all national societies do have a a volunteer base. And so that runs down to to, you know, the smallest community levels that you can you can imagine. So if you can think of it in very simplistic term a community that's cut off for whatever reason whether that's security or natural natural reasons, you'll still have that community base through which you can have some access and that's that's incredibly important. So you work in coordination with with all other humanitarian actors to make sure you're not duplicating and you have to also consider frankly how much money do you have to do that and what what's your value at as well. You know, try not adding something that someone else is already is already doing as well. >> And then and therefore you sort of actively measuring the results of each investment for one of a better phrase. >> Yes. Yes, you are. Yeah, you have kind of you have clear monitoring mechanisms as well. You do and again all of this again kind of back to that like making sure you're trusted for what for doing what you say you will do. You you go and you assess yourself and then you plan and you monitor yourself and you're able to sort of see the impact of what you're of what you're doing. Of course and all conversations around humanitarian aid and assistance include conversations around value for money. You also have to which is yeah, which is normal and is that you're delivering the most assistance to the most people that you can and taking the fewest the smallest amount of resources for the organization itself to do that. But you also have to remember that you're you're providing things that you won't see a return on everything. Like you know, you're you're delivering food somewhere or you're you're repairing water infrastructure that that is the purpose of it as as well. But that's that's definitely part of it as well. So you develop I think credibility with authorities and and governments as well critically. >> Can you maybe talk us through a couple of I suppose typical days both in Mazar-i-Sharif and then in Ukraine as examples of the typical activities you were doing with the Red Cross in those environments. Yeah, down to who you were meeting, what the uh, the social dynamic was, um, yeah, clearly you spoke you so you say Farsi? >> Yeah, yeah, Farsi, yeah. >> So, yeah, that's an advantage, but um, yeah, the need for interpreters or not, the play will work between the different tribes, particularly in in, um, Afghanistan. And then same again for Ukraine, like what was the dynamic? What was the day-to-day? >> Yeah, sure. Um, yeah, so very different. Um, that I did very different roles, obviously, as well. So, the role in Afghanistan first, so I was as I said, I was, um, what's called a protection delegate. So, I was responsible for documenting incidents of the conflict that had affected civilians to to support dialogue with whichever armed group or or actor was, um, was involved, as well. And that, as I said, is it's part of a it's not a public report, it's part of um, building a dialogue with them on on how they might avoid that, you know, and and I hopefully bring them information that they of which they might not be aware, as well. Um, of of how those those operations have affected the civilian population, how they might mitigate that in future, as well. And just engaging [clears throat] in really constructive conversation around that, as well. You're You are looking for behavioral change, but you're not it's not like a public public activity. So, that was kind of one one broad part of it, and then >> So, so when you say making people aware, so they might consider changing their activity, might that be talking to both, um, ISAF forces and the Taliban and tribal groups? >> It Yeah, it is. It's It's any of the actors with whom you can have contact. Um, and so yes, it it did. >> Yeah. And in terms of contact, was that easy enough to achieve, particularly with with certain organizations, or was it quite difficult at times? >> Uh, no, I mean, it's very difficult at the time. I mean, so yeah, the the the the international presence side of that and the Afghan armed forces, very easy. Set locations, headquarters, you can arrange a meeting. Yeah. Um, obviously, when you're when as an organization like the ICRC does is trying to engage with non-state armed actors, it's not quite so straightforward. They do it. They will obviously meet at whatever level and wherever they can. Um but no, I mean it was it was very it's very complicated and you know, there's some you know, kind of obviously phone contact. Um you you would meet as well. Um but it's obviously you're you're very mindful of the considerations around that. They have obviously their own, you know, with no judgments of what's happening, they have their own security considerations around that as well. They yeah, they see uh they're being they're being targeted. That would happen as well. You know, we would have developed um a contact with someone and and and then he would be killed. You know, and then you're you're kind of starting again on on building the the contact for that as well. And of course that that can be very That's a very challenging conversation, right? But it's what It is what you need to do if you are genuinely trying to focus on civilians wherever they are and regardless of of who the actor is. That's what that That's what it does look like. Um but it's but it's challenging and those conversations I had those conversations in Ukraine with the Ukrainian side. Um and obviously at the time this is before 2022, obviously. I was there in 2016. Um and of course, you know, they would ask, "Well, do you have these conversations with the other side?" And you're like, "Well, can't talk to you about that, but we try and we do." And the same as I won't talk to them about what I talk to you about. Um it's the same it's the same kind of the same deal, so to so to speak as as well. >> Do Do you tend to find that sides have similar priorities in a way that perhaps people wouldn't expect? Like say for example, if I if I took my mind back to to 2007 in in Helmand province, I would I wouldn't It's not that I'd find it difficult to believe, but I wouldn't I wouldn't entertain automatically the idea that that the Taliban, sort of our enemy at the time, would would would think to try and get aid pushed to the the that were under their watch and and protection. Um or at least not with the same sort of benign intent that we might. And I wonder if I might just be wrong about that. You know, talking to actors like the Taliban, did they did they show a sort of level of pastoral concern that might surprise us as as people in the West, I suppose. >> Yeah, I mean, there's a lot in there and I should obviously sort of note again again, I was I was still very junior in the organization at that point. So, I wouldn't have been having those those kind of higher level conversations as well. There's there you know, I think you're kind of indicating towards it like there is more nuance to things than we than we than we know. And then again, that sort of I think you learn that complexity as you go in this work as well and that things aren't quite so simple. We often have a conversation in the organization and then people will ask you sometimes like, how do you remain neutral? And you of course have between individual personal and organizational neutrality. Like you know, I worked in Iraq. Was I neutral about what was happening in some of and some of what the Islamic State at the time was doing? Not as an individual, no. But you know, what would I do in terms of promoting access for to certain to any area where I could provide civilian support. What you do come back to is you have to be able to work in the right way. So, it's it's what's the conversation you're having with them around Okay, you let's say they want assistance to deliver it into a certain place. Well, then we have to be able to do that. And we have to be able to monitor it. We have to be able to assess it ourselves. And that's So, those same guidelines and principles apply everywhere. And if you can't meet those principles, then then you keep discussing, basically, as well. So, so I do think there's more nuance to it. I think as well, there are certain things and there are certain activities that basically everyone can agree on. You know, at the time the local governance initiatives were deeply opposed by the Taliban. So, anything that ACTED was doing, for example, around all agencies around local governance were not popular because that was they saw themselves as the government. Yeah. They wanted to be that. So, they're not going to view favorably a local governance initiative, and obviously the means that they used you can you can debate, clearly. Um but around things like family contacts and that people in detention should be well treated, everyone agrees. You know, and that's a framework that you can work with. Around prosthetics, around health care, so you you do have some kind of some shared interest there as well of what you'd like to see as con- as consistent, but it's it's deeply complicated, and of course you know, I think that the point you mentioned of, you know, how it looked to you from a military angle, I mean, I can't even I can't even imagine because it's a completely different it's a completely different world. And And what you were saying earlier about how um even the way that an NGO or or the Red Cross would operate without the protection and the the way that you would, there was um there was a comic book uh written at the time called Kabul Disco, and there's a great scene in it where it's it's um a humanitarian worker he's work- and he's being extracted he's being evacuated from there cuz it's become frankly unsafe, and NATO have gone in to basically scoop him out. And they're having this conversation in the back of in the back of the what are they taking out of just comparing the fact that they couldn't imagine doing the life of the other, that they couldn't they're like, "Well, you go there with guns. I can't imagine that. You go without guns, you know." So, yeah, but anyway, I think there is this this nuance and and things, and you learn to I think I think you have to kind of learn to live in that complexity and to kind of in that sort of ambiguity at times as well. You have to stick to your stick to your principles and stick to what guides and and be consistent. >> And do you And do you were you, do you have training in in that sort of principled thinking and prioritization of um the needs of different actors, you know, like how would how are people in these organizations prepared to think? The military is very structured in the way it makes it in the way that you appreciate situation, for example. Is there a parallel in that in the NGO world and specifically the the Red Cross? >> I can't imagine we're quite so efficient as the military, but there are there are some similarities. Um the ICC in particular, I think borrows a lot from that as well. Um in terms of the training of it. I think there's there's obviously kind of part personal reflections in this and just what you're encouraged to do and and those who coach you into the roles, but you're always thinking of the motivation of the actor that you're talking to as well. Uh you are trained to train, you know, you you're basically training a bit in negotiation. You don't have a way of making anything happen. You have to influence. Um and so your your levers of that develop with time as well. You you learn to sort of understand what's what's the common ground that I can find here. Um you know, Ukraine, we managed to negotiate between two sides that we could deliver some health activities in communities that fell between the front lines, so kind of a no man's lands. And they And so that took a lot of time and it took work on our side, work from colleagues of mine who were working in Donetsk, who were working with the um the Donetsk People's Republic authorities as they were kind of called at the time um to kind of negotiate that and to be able to get health teams to go in and serve this community. You find that kind of that common common ground that you can you can do as well. So there is there's a lot of training. There's a lot of emphasis as well on as you asked on the on the principles, on the way the organization functions, on the mandate. And obviously you're you're you know, you're constantly looking at the examples of those around you who are more more senior, more experienced as you um as you go. Of course, you you know, make mistakes on that. You wouldn't do things the same way necessarily, but you um um yeah, you really you really try. And I think, you know, again, part of the reason I stayed in it for so long is I was just I felt really privileged and just kind of fortunate to be and interested to be involved in so many things that I could never have done otherwise, you know, as well. They might not be top of everyone's list, but I was like, I think it's incredible that I was able to you know, for all what it represented, to go to a place like Bagram and carry out a detention visit. That's you know, that was an extraordinary thing to be able to to do in your career as well, and with a real purpose. So So yeah, there's a real emphasis on it, lots of training, um and then just kind of again, that kind of being very single-minded and sticking to your purpose, your mission, your mandate um as a as an organization. >> Mhm. And what's uh what's the what's the experience of of visiting a detention facility like that? What's What What's that like? What did you experience there? And um you know, cuz yeah, so certainly, you know, as as soldiers we sent people there and you know, we know that the the West does that by certain standards and rules and you just don't think much about it and it's certainly not somewhere you can visit unless you're intimately involved with that as a as a as as a armed forces member. So, you know, what what did you experience in that bizarre world? >> Yeah, I mean, they they varied. Um I mean, start you know, I mean, Afghanistan um I like I said, I I visited mainly Afghan-run facilities. Um so, Afghans central prisons, uh so three of those and then and then um facilities um connected to the the National Directorate of Security, that's the NDS. And then with support on on background visits at points as as well. So, those were very different in of themselves as well. Um yeah, I mean, the first time you go, you're not really sure what you're expecting. Um because I spoke Dari then um to to a high standard I was I often worked a lot independently as well or I would work with with one other colleague who who who was even you know even stronger in in in Dari or Farsi than I was and you have a very sort of clear set of rules and procedures and of how you do it actually so there's lots of manuals and forms that you have to follow but at its heart it's relationship building. And again if you look at what you're doing is is kind of really conveying that you're there for what why you there so you're not there to question why they've been arrested and that's your starting point of like that's you know what we that's your business let's say what we're looking for is what's the what what are their health conditions um what is the treatment like so you also have private conversations with with people who are detained as well. Um are they in touch with their family do their family know that they're there that's critical and and what's the infrastructure like and then through that can we support in any way so you know the ICRC has a deep experience in advising on how prisons can be can be improved I would often then work with you know the engineers that we would have to come in and make basic improvements as well but yeah I mean they're they're they're crazy environments of course I mean it's it was not it's not something that I imagined that I would do and then it's really where your career leads you you know versus what you had I didn't have a plan for it for sure some people do go into this sector with a clear direction of it I kind of fell into it if I'm honest but yeah I mean I also I I think it's also some of the most rewarding work that I've done frankly as well because you know if you strip away why people are there whether right or wrong um you are delivering a very basic human need and service as well and and I kind of always remember speaking to someone in Bagram um who I'd been I can't remember why but he'd been kind of flagged as someone who potentially was was had a had a concern or a need Went to talk to him and he was like, "I'm fine. My family know that I'm here. I I really appreciate someone coming to see me." And that was it. You know, and and you know, I've no clue what led him to be there or not. Um but just the fact that someone would check in and just check that that's working and and that you're still trying to bring an improvement inside inside a a system. And again, working with authorities, trying to bring pragmatic change. You know, that's that's the thing that kind of the cooperative thing. That doesn't mean you don't that they are they are hard environments. I think that it it is I'm probably speaking quite positively about it, but they are they are draining as well. It's It's a challenging environment. Um and again, you're going in there with nothing other than just your time and energy and and and organizational resources behind you to bring some improvements. But um but yeah, I mean, you I would go into facilities of yeah, sort of hundreds of people and many would want to talk to you and they would yeah, they were long long hard days, but you were also able to bring bring some practical change for people. It's amount to support them on something. Again, working with the authorities, trying to bring some uh some follow-up as well. >> Mhm. I can't help but think listening to your stories, you know, we talk about um uh you know, uh your uh personal values and impartiality as well as those of the organizations, you know, very complex nuances, uh skills that are perhaps coached and handed down by seniors as much as they are taught and you know, that that must lead to a a pretty unique team environment for those of you deployed together. You know, what what were the things that sort of um unified you together? We and and and was it easy to um uh to stay in each other's support, you know, when so many individual judgments are being made? Is there ever tension to manage and how's that done? Yeah, no, of course. You know, I think you know, partly if I'm honest, you're you're also dealing with a lot of driven people as well. So, in that in that commitment, everyone can also have an opinion of how how things need to work. So, of course, I mean, it's teams. It's a lot of what I would do through my career is also just it progressively became people management. You know, and also that thing of Don't know if that's true for all all professions and trades, but the the more senior you get, the further away you get from why you joined. Sometimes, you know, there is a bit of that. Um and you're doing more of the machine and managing that. And the external representation, that's still true in what I do now. I do a lot of that. Um but you get a bit further away from what you uh started out doing. Um but you have again like great composition, I think. Um you have a that mix of kind of working with international staff, but but crucially people who are from the place. And and just really really relying on them. And you learn that quickly, or you should, as well. Uh and just that you know, listen listen to them as well. Work through that. Um But yeah, I mean, it's it's it's a it's a again, you come back to that purpose of the organization as well. And that that that's a real binding thing. You have a lot of people who stay a long time in the in the Red Cross and and the Red Crescent as well, you know, it's it's something that seems to keep people uh keep people in it. I mean, I again, I'm it wasn't quite the plan in moving back to London that I would join the British Red Cross, but but I was very happy to see this job come up. And you know, that's like I said, it's been basically my entire career today, you know, so um so there's there's definitely something in it. >> Like the quite long tours as well. So, you we were used to sort of 6 7 months tours. The Americans do a year, which frankly makes much more sense if you're trying to build a local relationships. And in some ways, you were almost the glue, I would imagine, for those some of those societies. You could build relationships cuz they knew you would still be there. >> Yeah. >> Did you that was a sort of and then sort of if you sort of step out a bit and put it in the the wider construct of the security situation around you, and you saw both the the up and then the down, I suppose. Um did you see that you were your products were able to to flourish more in an environment where security was better? Uh and obviously it got more challenging as that situation changed. Um or were you able to even though the security situation might have changed, were you able to continue delivering? >> Yeah, definitely. Um Yeah. No, I mean there's there's a lot in that. But I think partly again coming back to like how you work with the team, the first thing would be whatever the situation is in terms of security, you have to show that that's your first commitment to your team. That's the foundation. You can't really do do kind of anything without without that. So that was the first thing that we would always always kind of draw on. The the how of that is obviously a bit is a bit different. Yeah. Yeah, it could compare to obviously to military force and so on. It's it's nothing to There's nothing to compare. But that that is your foundation of, you know, we if we can't we don't have that we can't work, we can't deliver, don't take place. And that that is the first thing that you demonstrate to your to your teams as as well. Obviously, the better the security situation, the more that you can do. Depends on your your interlocutor as well. You know, like you Some are easier to work with. It's just the case. It doesn't even matter necessarily on the country. Some some you know, it's what's their motivation? What are they like as well? Yeah. Met some incredible prison directors in Afghanistan who wanted to make great changes who were just motivated by the same I honestly the same things that you're motivated by. >> Yeah. >> Just you know, they have different parameters, but they're they're trying to do the right thing, you know, and and they're inside their particular framework, you're inside your particular framework. And you And that's that's what you can work with. That makes that much easier. Um but yeah, for sure like I won't say the security situation in Ukraine was was good at the time. You had to deal with a really intense conflict, but along a much more limited um line of contact as it was called. So you could do more. Um it was we could get good we had good access to really vulnerable people who had stayed on that front line, who just wouldn't move. Frankly, had nowhere else to go. So, really small communities who didn't need huge assistance packages. Uh you might be we might be visiting frankly 12 people, but they lived, you know, kind of either in no man's land or basically just on front lines in a really really tough situations and had nowhere else to to go, didn't want to leave, kind of really often quite old. You know, like a a woman that we would that we knew that she'd been displaced as a child in the Second World War and was like, "I'm not I'm not moving." You know, she's like, "I'm not going again." So, that's the thing and I kind of wondered, "Oh, actually, where is she now?" kind of thing. So, um the other thing that does drive it, if I'm honest though, in terms of what you can do is money. And the and how visible is is the the conflict in the world's in the world's minds. You know, like we struggle to raise money for Sudan. It's not that I don't I don't cover that that context, but we do we struggle. Whereas, we do okay in terms of amazing amazing money for Ukraine. Um for everything that's happening around Israel-Palestine as well, in the occupied Palestinian territories. So, we we do better in that sense and that really impacts what you can do. So, it's part security, it's part resources, as well. >> Mhm. I think it'll be interesting when we're talking to Coco Rocha later in the in the series, who spent a lot of time in in Africa, particularly West Africa. And I think we'll we'll come on to that theme of if it's not in the major press, similar to we've just spoken to a journalist and um you know, what the press is interested in isn't necessarily what you on the ground are trying to achieve. >> Yeah, there is there is some of that. Yeah, don't quote me. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Um but it's really fascinating. Um thinking about a couple of maybe uh good examples that we can sort of pull out um when you think about things you achieved that you look back on you're like, "We changed things for the better there." In Ukraine and and Mazār. What What particular ones sit warmly with you? And maybe, yeah, once we've done that, maybe sort of focus on a couple where you wanted to do more but couldn't. >> Mhm. Um I mentioned to you that it might sound like a small one, but yeah, the sort of negotiating of of health services into an area of of no man's land as well. Um I can't say details around it, but also the the dialogue we have with the Ukraine armed forces at the time around conduct of hostilities. And just that was a productive relationship. And that that felt that felt good. Yeah, that sort of they have their like I said, they have their parameters, their framework, and they work inside those, and you work inside yours, but it was it it it feels like you're contributing to something as well. You're you're um you build the right relationship. That was that was definitely something as well. Um Afghanistan, it might it might sound strange, but I I worked quite a lot of the time with um if you bear with me, detainees who were who were um uh expecting a death sentence. >> Yeah. >> But they didn't have confirmation of it. This is this is an odd example, perhaps, but they I worked a lot of the time on you basically needed to have your sentence confirmed three times for it to be to be confirmed. And so, they had they had two sentences confirmed as death sentence for for the crimes of which they were accused. And they wanted to know what would Cuz it's until you confirm it, you can't be released or and it can't be changed. It can also become a life sentence, and then they know they can be released. They obviously ran a risk of it being confirmed as a death sentence, and then that would be carried out. Um and they they wanted to know. And I was And, you know, basically taking their file and following it up for them. Um and I think here, maybe linking back to something you said before, I didn't see the results of all of that, cuz obviously then your immediate thought would be like, "So, what happened?" I don't know. But it was the working on that with them and and and knowing that their files would be would be returned. Some of the two that I work on recall were returned without a death sentence, and not that's the objective, but they got that clarity. You know, avoid the risks of that. Um, but also you you know you're working inside something longer. You don't just focus on like oh, I'm here for 12 months, so therefore this and this, you know, this this exists. It continues. Um, that's where the work of national societies for example is really important. They don't leave, you know, like the Afghan Red Crescent is still there. The Ukraine Red Cross like if you look at what's happening now in Kiev, like they're they're performing an amazing operation in response to everything they're going through. Because they're there. They were there they can't leave. They're from there, you know, so it's it's a big part of it and you try and fit yourself um, inside that. And I might borrow one if you don't mind from from Mosul of which I think there was a team we were particularly proud which was and it's you know, these things are all quite heavy as well obviously at the same time, but we I mentioned the services that we we provide as the Red Cross around restoring family links or connecting with the people that looking for their their family members and then you know, they just can't can't find them. And we we open we my job was to kind of move the team into Mosul and open the office there after it had been retaken by by Iraqi armed forces. And obviously a city that was you know, widely destroyed and huge needs. Um, and we we opened when we opened our office we planned for a center for people to come and register to look for their missing missing family members. And we had to quadruple it in size because we had people queuing from sort of 4:00 5:00 in the morning to come and see us when we would open. Yeah. And so, you know, hard like really wrenching conversations and things that you're doing, but just you felt I don't know, you feel you feel good about it frankly. You know, you're doing what you can. You know, are you bringing kind of world world changing impacts? I mean obviously not. You're doing what you can in your lane at the level at which you you you can try. On the question of like wanting to do more, I think always. I I could if I sit I could probably think of some some examples, but but yeah, I mean you you always want to be able to do more. You always want to be able to to improve how you did something, to to reach more communities, to to have more funding, to influence government more, you know, to to get better exposure for places that people don't fund. There's There's There's always There's always that. I think that's I think that kind of maybe what drives you as well because again, you know, that's all you It's kind of all you have. You don't have a way of making it happen otherwise, I think. Yeah. Sorry, it's a bit fence-sitting, isn't it, that one? But >> No, no, not at all. I think it's pretty pretty logical. Um you always want to do more if you can. Um there's maybe just one or two times where your heartstrings are particularly strong by a particular event and you really wanted to do more, but for whatever reason couldn't. Um something that There's definitely some I suppose decisions that I've made in the army where I say, "Ah, I wish I'd gone Yeah, not on a tactical level like left instead of right, but what if I' And if we'd stayed" It's actually more around if we'd stayed longer, particularly in Afghanistan, but you know, what would it be like now? Would it be a better place? And cuz we could see the improvement by providing security in the facilities and the the government, etc. Um and I think that's something that probably doesn't help with with suicide, I think, in the in the the military. Um a lot of men very frustrated about having done a lot to improve somewhere only for it to basically go back to the dark ages. Mhm. Yeah, I mean, I I would think as well on that sort of influencing, definitely can think of times you're like, "I wish I'd found a different way to talk to that person." >> Yeah. >> That commander. You know, what what was I missing? >> Yeah. >> Or or you know, you're like, "How did How did we come across? How did I come across?" You know, could I have done that differently? How would you know, you run with the assumption you do it better when you're older, but like you know, that kind of what if obviously all roles you have, you think you think back and maybe you could have done it done it differently. And I can think of yeah, one interaction we had with the military commander in Ukraine, broadly great relationships. Um but you know, he he was like, "Okay, what can I help you with?" Explained it. He's like, "Great, that's it." Yeah, I lost I mean, he's a busy guy, but it was also like, "Okay, there's there's clearly something else here as well." And you you're like, "What what can you do differently on that?" And in Ukraine, you know, we couldn't we couldn't get as many sort of um resolutions for missing families as we wanted. Even with as you asked as well, like a fairly good security environment at the time. You just had so many people living in that unknown of where their loved one was as well. And obviously like, "What could what could we have done differently?" What what, you know, what were we missing? What we pursued all kinds of different avenues, conversations, authorities, others, like, "Well, what were we missing as well?" So So yeah, that kind of questioning of what could you have done differently for sure runs. >> Now, I imagine, you know, God willing, hostilities will end in Ukraine with the sort of the the ongoing conflict. And I guess that that effort re- re-linking families will be an enormous that I'm sure there'll be some sort of surge effort on that from the international community that will be a huge operation. Uh is that something spoken about at this point in preparation or or >> Yeah, I mean, and not just specifically on on sort of um missing missing families reunification. I mean, because we we know unfortunately from experience what protracted conflict looks like as well. And then what protracted need looks like. >> Mhm. >> And Ukraine does fall into a category where you would you would think they will receive a lot of international support in ways that other other contexts don't as we talked about. Um but still, I mean, the need if it stops tomorrow and it's and it's there's a political solution to that as as kind of all conflicts need, um there will still be massive needs. And and and that will be a range that the whole international community that has to support that. Um but people get on with it. It's one of the things I think and I when I was thinking about this this podcast as well of just it's one of the things that does keep you going. Like I again remember when I went to Mosul and seeing people in in rubble, like rebuilding their shops themselves, just getting on with it. You know, so there's if there's anything you can do to kind of contribute into that, you will. You know, cuz you just see that and you're like, he's got they're not waiting for anything, they're just cracking on. Mhm. >> [laughter] >> And like, what can you do? What can you do to help them? And then if you look at like what Ukrainians are dealing with, I mean, even even our own colleagues are there. No power for a week and a half and they're still just trying to get on with stuff. You know, under really difficult circumstances. So then if they have different conditions, they'll be able to rebuild things and just and just get on with it. And and yeah, of course, you want to you know, try and bring anything into that that you that you can. And that will be that'll be a range of things, you know, and and not all of that is about the humanitarian sector as well, you know, you'll have large-scale infrastructure repairs and and rebuilding. Obviously, that's that's completely completely different, you know, kind of World Bank funding and things like that. So. >> Mhm. We've talked briefly about obviously loss of of comrades in the military and and the opportunity to grieve. Um and obviously the impact has on morale. You mentioned a couple of your colleagues in Afghanistan [snorts] [clears throat] being hit by IEDs or such like. How did you as the Red Cross deal with that and um it whether it was from a grieving perspective or providing the the assistance that those who were close to those people needed. >> Yeah, I mean, so you do you do both as you've as you've as you've said, you know, you kind of um yeah, you kind of look after each other as a family in that sense as well. It does happen. You take all the precautions you can. The ICRC has lost staff, as I mentioned, national societies as well. They they lose a lot of South Sudan, it's a lot of South Sudan sorry, Sudanese uh volunteers of the Red Crescent who who have been killed in what they do. Palestine Red Crescent, it happens all around the world. Humanitarian acts is a yeah, it's kind of it's still a risky profession in that sense as well. And particularly if you're for local local staff. Um There were Yeah, and there were colleagues of mine who in Afghanistan who were who were killed. It was after I had left. And I was in Ukraine at the time, actually. And whenever a staff member of the ICRC was was killed when I was working, I would always then kind of gather uh the office and and kind of explain what happened. And and we'd have a good, you know, a minute silence and uh and just to kind of keep that Yeah, that organizational spirit, as well, and to to remember the people that you you've lost. And I I couldn't actually I was like, "Okay, I'll gather everyone in the office and explain what's happened in Afghanistan." And then I started doing it. I was like I was like, "God, actually I can't talk about this." You know, I just kind of gone into that automatic, "Okay, my role in this is to do this." But I actually hadn't realized it was like, "These are people that I knew and they've they've just been killed." You know? And and kind of couldn't get through it all. Had to kind of, you know, regather myself and and kind of then explain to everyone. I was like, "What I haven't mentioned here is I also personally knew these people, as well." Sorry, and I couldn't hold it together at at first. And afterwards, at least, this is not kind of writing a review, but just someone came up to me and they're like, "Well, you know, broadly like at least we know what it would mean to you if something happened to us." I'm like, "Yeah, for sure." And again, you know, it's like that's how you're working as a team because you you have to look out for each other as well. So, it's it's hard and and you know, you lose staff members and the things that happen. And I know I've mentioned a few times, but Palestinian Red Crescent, you know, they've lost over 30 staff just in delivering medical services. And each time that happens, they they feel that because they they all work together. They all know each other. And it's it's kind of hard to comprehend. Um and it happens I'm Yeah, I mean, it happens in all conflicts, of course, but it's um it's a really important part of it. I think it's probably also even in and it's great that you guys are sort of introducing that as an element and it's probably not talked enough about, either, as well, in any of these kind of um professions. >> Yeah, that's right. It's It's something that I think we particularly It when you of an NGO, you don't necessarily think of loss of life. Um you tend to think that they sort of have a a safer time and hence yeah, we were amazed. Even now I'm amazed sat here speaking to you about how freely you could walk about as I Sharif. Um yes. Which yeah is yes your point about the um uh the Kabul disco, yeah. The two different worlds um with weapons without weapons, with body armor without body armor. >> Right. >> Without armored vehicles, with armored vehicles. It's uh amazing that these could happen literally alongside each other. >> It is totally anecdotal, but I was in Bamyan in central Afghanistan privately actually. >> Yeah. >> Um I'd actually finished with ACTED and I decided I was like actually I I had friends in Kabul, journalists and others I could stay with. I was like I'm going to self-fund some travel to places that I that I felt I could do safely. Uh so I went to Herat, I went to Bamyan. And I I spoke Dari really well at this point so I felt very comfortable. I obviously don't blend in much, but you know, I was I still felt comfortable enough to kind of get my to get my way around. Um and I was in Bamyan there's this this kind of series of cascading lakes. And then at some point there was a NATO Chinook that came over the top. And I kind of caught the eye of this of this guy who was in there. And I think we probably both had the same thought of like what's happening here? Like you know, he so he's like who's this? Who's this foreign guy just kind of paddling around in the water? >> Yeah. >> But I was like oh what's that Chinook doing here? >> That's funny. >> Yeah, so again you you kind of have these kind of completely parallel >> Yeah. >> worlds. I think in Afghanistan that was kind of the thing of you whether people would accept that and and and it wouldn't necessarily been their purpose. You were all willingly not or whatever part of this kind of international project. >> Yeah. >> You know, of of state building. Effectively different angles and you wouldn't necessarily have signed up to that. That was the environment in which you were you were all working. And it was that's what made made of such a I think an unusual time as well. Yeah, just all of these things kind of swirling around one place. >> Mhm. It's funny thinking of you cutting about northern Afghanistan looking a little bit like a Viking. Um >> [laughter] >> And then there's a moment I had in Basra which I still remember very clearly it just driving down a street obviously armored vehicles and saw a ginger head very white Iraqi as it turned out and I almost stopped all the vehicles and I was like stop get that guy lost. >> [laughter] >> Get him to safety. >> What's that ginger doing out in the sun? >> Yeah, and then obviously it's just a genetic condition that a few of them have. Um I think it's probably an Alexander the Great throwback. I don't know. >> Mhm. [snorts] >> Um but it's it was just quite a weird sort of seeing this guy on his own walking about completely happy with his own little world and my first reaction was wait stop. >> [laughter] >> Mhm. >> I mean Afghanistan like incredibly diverse as much as I said. >> Very much so yeah. >> I obviously you obviously stand out you you just do. But the northeast um there's a lot of people with red red hair as well. So I would joke sometimes that Afghans when they were like I said where are you from like Nuristan and they're like yeah no. >> [laughter] >> Right. I really I think we've got to wrap it up there. So I think we're just a few final thoughts on like where do you think war studies itself as as a course has maybe helped you um in your career or wherever you sort of felt its impact. >> Yeah, well as I said it was uncomfortable to think back to how long ago that is. So thank you thank you for that. Um I think it was it was that first exposure to I said I didn't have a plan of you know some people do when they enter a sector like I'll do this I'll study this and I'll go into this. I didn't I didn't have that. But certainly that kind of that ambiguity nuance of conflict as well. But then when I once I realized that was kind of where I was going to start working I did draw back on a lot of what I'd what I'd learned to Kings as well. Um and just that kind of the motivation of actors as well and that's sort of the connection between politics, military, and then obviously and then what I started doing as well. And yeah, just it gives you those analytical frameworks, as well. And and at the time, I mean, um I don't know if that's still the case, but I mean, I I considered that course as far as I considered that course at King's was unique. Yeah, once I found that course, I didn't look anywhere else. As soon as I realized that, I was like, yeah, that's all I want to do. That was That was really really what drew me in at the time. And um yeah, and and obviously just really it sets you up probably in ways you don't realize at the time. Um but and and definitely kind of some of the connections, contacts, um but the way of looking at the world, I think, and just the the lens that they were trying to take was was really really useful for me, for sure. >> [snorts] >> Awesome. That's probably a great note to finish on. Thank you. So, I guess that remains for us to to thank you, Rory, for joining us. I think that the the listeners who aren't from your world, um and I'll I'll include my myself in this, have a much better idea of of of what it is to to to fill your shoes and um and understand the uh the uh the the flexibility and and and the principal existence that that that you guys have to observe out on the ground um and in in in conflict. So, very very revealing and and thank you very very much indeed. >> Thanks to you both, as well. It's a pleasure. >> Thanks very much, Rory. >> Thanks. >> We'd like to thank King's College London, specifically the War Studies Department, and Professors James Gow, Jack McDonald, Juliette Pattinson, Dr. David Betz, and the School of Security Studies Communications Team. Without their support and encouragement, this podcast would remain just another idea that never came to fruition. Furthermore, the tremendous War Studies community, especially its alumni, in bringing together such a wonderful collection of unique experiences to share with the world to better understand the experience of war and the lessons learned from conflict. >> You've been listening to the War Studies podcast, produced and edited by the School of Security Studies Communications Team. For more information on our work, visit our website, which you'll find in the podcast description.