Waarom goede deals tóch mislukken

[music] Welcome to Impact Makers, the SuperOffice podcast. Today we have two interesting guests at the table. On the one hand Samantha Pijl and on the other hand, uh, Wouter Schram. My name is Harry van Ek. I am a sales philosopher. And what we are going to talk about is how ERP and CRM can work together, or perhaps work against each other, if people do not go along with the entire implementation of CRM and the EAP systems. What we are looking for is the actual flow through which customer service is optimized. Very interesting discussions. Certainly interesting when you are looking at how you can optimize customer service in your company. It's very nice to briefly introduce yourselves. Samantha, who are you ? What are you doing? And why are you sitting here? Yes , well, thank you. Um, so Smante Pij has been working as a lead sales representative at Succeed for 3 years. Prior to that, a background of approximately 12 to 13 years in IT. Yes. And what makes me really happy is advising companies on their internal processes. So it is really about the ERP processes, the internal processes, and how you, as a wholesaler and B2B company, can further automate them. Fine . And Wouter, uh, Wouter Scharam, Director at Superhos Benelux. Um, 14 years with the club, four years in this role, and uh, yeah, my passion lies in CRM. Well , great. Absolutely beautiful. Well, what we constantly talk about is commercial success. You may have everything sorted out with your CRM system, but the backend needs to be properly covered as well. And how does that actually work? I have three interesting propositions for that. I would like to share that with you . One statement: the pressure to secure orders structurally causes the internal organization to play catch-up . Agree or disagree? It is possible, but not necessary. And how do you view that? Um, I think. At sometime. That's nice. It's not even necessary. Sales representatives ensure they do not gain access. They should not be granted access to the ERP system. But they do need the data to be able to score. At sometime. Not even. At sometime. At sometime. 100% agree. 100% agree. If you automate everything with AI and agents to grow efficiently, you eventually lose the human connection with the customer. Can can [laughter] once once . I see you hesitating again, from "it might be possible" you explain to "do you want to come back to something?" Well, especially about the agents. That is, um, I'll just start with the last one, that one is still the furthest in my memory. Um, about the agents. It is indeed possible that you lose human contact with that, but that also depends entirely on how you arrange it. That is why I say it is possible. It really is a risk what you have with that. Because if you automate too much, you can lose that personal touch, and then you have to think very carefully about how to differentiate yourself from your competitors. After all, if everyone starts automating everything with agents, how do you differentiate yourself? So that is why my answer is that it is indeed possible, but not necessary . It just depends on how you set it up and where you put the money. Okay, that's a very good one. So how exactly does CRM fit into that? Um well, the way I see it now, uh, in the times we are living in right now, um, I think the officers are primarily, uh, yeah, the support, the gateway to get inside somewhere or to be able to stay inside. Um, but I certainly still believe in the market we operate in that, uh yeah, that people buy from people. Hmm hmm. Um, but to enable your people to function as well as possible, I think the agents are, well, crucial at the moment or becoming so. Yes. Um yes, and the role of CRM is of course very important in that. certainly the uh the commercial part uh getting a seat at the table , the uh sharing the right information, making sure you serve your customers well. Um, I think that is crucial. Absolutely beautiful. Um, if you take a very close look at the issues we run into when trying to get ERP and CRM to truly communicate with each other, then we are certainly also talking about the fact that, as consumers, we are used to receiving everything the next day. In B2B, that is actually becoming more and more of a requirement, so to speak. The logistical speed and, uh, adaptability of an organization are very important in that regard. How, how, how do you see it, eh, Samantha? Well , I've certainly seen that happening for years. That pressure is increasing . You see that a uh you are a consumer in your spare time. Well, we have been quite spoiled in that regard in recent years. It does n't matter which day you order. We expect it to arrive the next day. I find it really absurd sometimes, because do you always need it the next day? Hmm hmm. As you can see, I obviously know everything that needs to happen behind the scenes to make that happen, but you see that within B2B we expect that more and more as well. We want to be able to find more and more information online. So no longer just having to call. Well, you also see that more and more millennials are at a certain level. Yes, they look at it differently than before. So you want to be able to find information in there as well. Well , that's already a bit of information provision. And once you have finally placed the order, you want to receive it quickly. But you also expect that when you call, if you have a question, someone answers immediately. So the service rate is expected to be increasingly higher. Yes. And in that regard, I think that on the one hand, yes, you need to automate that. And then you see that from a sales perspective, the conversations are often pleasant. Otherwise, you would n't choose them as your party. Or you need to be more involved in the online field. But just going by a B2B perspective for a moment, you expect the conversations with an account manager to be good. Yes. But after that, that promise must be fulfilled, and that is where ERP comes into play . Ensure that you have set that up efficiently, so that the order moves to the warehouse as quickly as possible for delivery. But does that mean that those uh salespeople promise too much or something, or uh... Well, I think a salesperson is pretty positive about everything anyway. Yes, that suits a salesperson a bit. I can have that myself sometimes too. That you view something very positively and then also, well, those I don't know if they are always promises, but in any case, that feeling works with the customer that it is all possible. Certainly. Yes, but when does your commercial aspect become a threat to logistics and operations? If things are promised that cannot be achieved, of course. Yes. So there needs to be a good balance within your organization. What is feasible for us in terms of delivery times. You also have articles. Yes, we have had quite a few problems in the world too. Yes. Uh, containers that aren't making it to the Netherlands. Yes. You can make all kinds of promises upfront, but if you don't have the product to deliver, well, I think that piece of communication with your customer is very important. Hmm hmm. How do you uh deal with that with your customers? Because I find it quite interesting too, you know? Because whether you are dealing with ages or complaints in general, um, a complaint that comes in, there can of course really be an immediate opportunity there. And that is quite decisive in how you deal with that as a company. Because things going wrong will always happen. No matter what industry you are in . How do your customers talk about that, like: okay, if there is a certain error mass, 5% 10%, it doesn't matter. Um, how do we ensure we make that customer happy in the end? Well, I think it already starts with communicating when something changes. So if you have indicated a delivery time of a week, but the product arrives later, make sure that I am informed of that, at the very least. Yes, I think you can already get a lot of understanding from the customer with that. And you can automate that. That when a delivery time is adjusted in your ERP, messages are automatically sent out. That is not very complicated, but make sure it has the right tone of voice, et cetera. Yes. Um, how they actually handle it otherwise in terms of, uh, error marches. Yes, it varies a lot. Yes. per company, how one person describes it really says: "I have customer service, I want to do everything by phone," while the other is a bit more focused on automation . I think it also depends very much on what kind of product you have. Of course. Look, if they are somewhat smaller products that are perhaps also ordered online, well, there you go, that is often resolved more automatically, so getting in touch. Yes. Um, we do have a comprehensive returns system within our ERP as well, so that if you can process returns—something different from not delivering late, for example—but if they are returns, you can easily resolve that administratively. Yes. However, how it is communicated to a customer varies greatly . Yes. Yes. Because I think that there is indeed a risk there, but also immediately a really huge opportunity for the company to be distinctive in that area . Well, where I see companies increasingly wanting to be distinctive now is indeed how you handle customer contact. Yes. Hmm hmm. You can automate a lot, but you don't want that to come at the expense of your availability. Yes, we... if I look at Succeed Itself itself, it is almost a USP that we have a support desk that speaks Dutch and that you can call, especially when I see it with competitors. Yes. Yes, but our customers do expect that, and it is just as good for many other companies. You do appreciate that there is still some personal contact. Yes. So is that where companies' competitive advantage lies in that customer contact? Yeah, I think that if you, um, where you can make a difference now is, well, keep your customer contact there. Hmm hmm. But also ensure that customers can look up a lot themselves. After all, not everyone feels like having to call BG to find out that it is a time later. So, make sure you offer the possibilities in addition. You can find everything online with us. Hmm hmm. So if you are sitting on the couch in the evening and want to find it, go ahead and look. You can find it very easily with a B2B portal or something similar. But we also just have the sales people who have known you for years. If you would like to discuss something or if something did n't go well, you can also call. And I actually think that by fully utilizing those two areas, you can be distinctive compared to the competition. Hmm hmm. But to what extent is the customer actually able to determine for themselves, based on the information on the internet, whether they are ordering the right products ? That depends very much on your products, of course. Look, you have products that really need to be put together. You need advice on that. More the produced that then, uh, arises. cabinets or something similar. But you also have simple products. Yes, if you have a serial number from something and it matches, then yes, you know what you need . So I think that varies a lot . So in that regard, you also need to look very closely at what type of customer I have. Hmm hmm. But also how mature my client's IT is. After all, we can decide that we are going to do a lot online and keep you informed by email . But if you are in a somewhat more conservative market where that is all a bit less common, well, then that is the plan. Yes. Yes. Yes. I think it is very important for a company to take a close look now at who is my customer? Conduct research into that as well. What does my client expect? What makes them happy? And focus on that . Yes, but the customer is encouraged to do a lot themselves. Uh, to look things up myself. Yes, the seller groups of that is all easy. But you see in many companies that during that transfer from the salesperson who manages the orders to the customer, who essentially has to register his own orders, he sometimes comes under pressure. Uh, how do you do that? Those kinds of transformation processes, then? Um yeah, how you do that kind of transformation... Yeah, you just have clients who are n't suitable for that. You will never manage to get everyone to place orders in your B2B portal . Look, what you from an ERP perspective—what we mainly look at—is how we ensure that people can still send emails as well. Because some simply find it easier, or they have an order coming through from their own ERP system . In any case, we will ensure that they are automatically read by an agent and appear in your EP. Because you don't need to retype it manually , you also remove errors. But for everyone in a portal, yes, it just varies a lot by industry. Yes. Would that be more prone to errors if everyone did it themselves? That they order the wrong things more often, the wrong units? That is just a question. I am curious about that. Um, you mean if it comes in by email? Well, if people start placing the orders themselves, so to speak—meaning a company needs something and thinks: "Well, I'll just go order that from a portal somewhere." And without them really knowing, well, this is really the right product I need to have. Or if they are product combinations that they do not know. Yes, you see that happening. So, what you can build in is ensure that the order is automatically ready, but that someone from sales takes another look at it . Is this correct for that customer? Yes. Yes. So then you are still left with a bit of whether you want a check to be performed from a certain amount onwards to ensure that it doesn't go through the order, either automatically in your ERP or by ensuring there is human intervention. Yes. Can you also automate part of the process based on whether certain products are included or not, or can you say, "Hey, those are allowed," or " Deliveries can always be made to those customers"? Yes. Hmm hmm. And then it can proceed. But you actually want her to move on to the warehouse as quickly as possible. Precisely. Yes. Yes. And that people are no longer occupied with repetitive work, but only with exceptions. Yes. Yes. And that is a whole lot of furnishing you can do. As a result, your inside sales team, for example, only looks at the specific areas they need to focus on and no longer sees every order pass by. Yes. No. But does that mean that standardization is actually an important part of sales as well? So that they sell standard products or yes. And you have to be careful with that, because you also want to be distinctive. So you don't want to stick too closely to standards either. So it's really about looking at, "Hey, how can I make it as standard as possible?" Because that makes handling your processes much easier for you as a company . But you also want to offer a bit of flexibility. So, uh, that is yeah looking at yourself as a company as well: hey, how far can we go with that? But I do see a trend where more and more companies are saying: "We are simply moving towards more and more standard products. We can deliver those much faster, and then we don't have the problems or challenges involved." Yes, but then again, it can also be a point where you make the difference compared to your competitor: that you are the one who is flexible. Yes. Well , exactly. But—and I think that is also where the seller's fear sometimes lies—that he might lose out on the item in order because he cannot deliver as standard, yet always wants to claim those exceptions. Well, what I see a lot is that salespeople also like to have a lot of free rein in the entire pricing process with a client and the negotiations involved. Yes, those are points that I see changing significantly towards increasingly standard prices with a certain discount percentage that a customer falls into. Yes. Where you used to see roughly a separate price list for each customer. Those are also points to standardize it further. Yes, I do see a lot of companies increasingly moving in that direction. And how does the collaboration between CRM and ERP play a role in that? Because, uh, everything about that customer naturally needs to be recorded in CRM. Uh, just name anything . The price agreements, I don't know what else. How, how, how does that all work together, then? I'm just asking as a layman. Uh yes, a good question, because those are indeed the tricky questions, since you have your sales working in CRM. Well, it is really suitable for the Zeals people there too. Can they capture all their quotes, all their opportunities, send them, and customer data? But you also have an ERP where your data eventually ends up. Yes, so it is also very good to have a conversation with each other about what you ultimately really need in your CRM? Well, you have multiple solutions for that. Of course. Well, it isn't a question that, uh, where there is actually only one right answer. It depends quite a bit on the type of company. Um, my view is that salespeople really should work purely in CRM. Uh, but there are quite a few, uh, there are also companies where sales are really super order- driven, and then they really do need a lot of EAP data. So, when we look at companies that do not need that—for example, a revenue information building is sufficient for them to essentially operate commercially there. Uh, looking at companies that are really, uh, very order- driven where there is a high turnover rate. Yes, they just need order information. And where the difficult part lies is often in preparing quotations. Uh, because then you actually need price and, yes, product information from EAP. Um yes, that is actually where you want CRM, but CRM isn't an article database. And where does the emphasis lie, then? Uh, where does the essence lie, then? With ERP or with the CRM? What is the guiding principle, then? Your ERP ultimately leads for your order . Yes, because that is where your order lands. And this is indeed a good point from the quotation. What are you eventually going to use them in? Yes, because you do want your sales people to be able to prepare a quote, but ultimately your ERP is actually the system with all your standard features. Well, I think you look at it the same way , but all your price lists are fixed in that as well. And this is a point you will always look at together. What is the most workable solution here? We're going to create those quotes after all, but based on the standard price list. And if that then—it also depends on how complex the pricing structure is—will it still end up in your ERP, or are you going to record it in the ERP? Varies again. I also see companies that say: "Yes, we have an inside sales team that supports the outside sales team with preparing quotes." Yes. Yes. Yes. They are often included in ERP, because if you have an inside sales team , they ultimately handle the quotes and process the orders as well. But that sounds very complex to me , doesn't it? How do you make that simple, then? Well , if I just take the point information. Look, I am not always in favor of exchanging data with systems if you don't immediately do something with the data afterward. We solve that with Power BI, where you can zoom in on all data. Could you also make that can we do available for sales people? Hmm hmm. That we also prefer not to have them in the ERP if it is not necessary. Because it is not an ERP, it is very data- driven. Yes. And often, sales simply wants to see what is happening with a customer in a straightforward way . Hmm hmm. Well, that is becoming increasingly easier with AI , but right now we are giving them insight into that using Power BI. Yes. And that means that you put something in between, like I'm looking from a bit of a distance, and that you bring the information together there, as it were, like a kind of flow. Yes. Well, what they can see in this is very simple. Who are the clients who report to me? Revenue per customer. How does revenue compare to last year? So you can go there again, and you can find the orders there. Yes. Yes, that is actually recognizable. Is that really the case? Look, the quotation part always remains a... uh... an identical situation, so to speak. That is different everywhere. But actually, when it comes to exchanging that data, we do it that way as well . And the question is also a bit, um, do you want to be able to see information when preparing for your client, for example, or during your client visit, or do you want to be able to apply commercial filters, selections, or dashboards to that? And yes, the moment that, uh, you want that last part, yes, then you really do have to get that data into your CRM. So then you could say, for example: "Well, give me establishments where we haven't been for three months and which, uh, are lagging behind last year in terms of revenue." Well, you can clearly act on that. Hmm hmm. Is that information actually crucial to increase your revenue? Um, at the moment when, in preparation for your appointment, you need to see, "Hey, which products were purchased?" Which product groups are selling well? Um, then a view with Power BI, for example, is actually already sufficient. Yes. Yes. And that's nice, isn't it, because you guys are shouting all sorts of terms, uh, agents, uh, everyone is shouting it. But what is it actually? What exactly is a police officer? Because it is already very interesting for the layperson to listen and think, ' What does that do?' Yes, what an agent is is what you are actually going to do as an organization. Check where I have repetitive work? Hmm hmm. Which are certain steps, actions in sequence. Yes, you will have the system execute that. As an example, an order is sent to my to my simply to my email. I want uh, another 10 uh, boxes of something. What the agent can then do—because there is logic behind it—is read: "Hey, this is that customer, because I see that in the email address, for example. And I can retrieve these items from the written text." And then they go ahead and prepare a quotation or order in the ERP system . It just depends on which choice you make in that regard. So normally, a sales representative would then check the mailbox: "Oh, which customer is this?" and take all of that over. It is being prepared now. So it is actually multiple actions that you are currently performing manually, human actions. Hmm hmm. You are going to automate that. Okay . And that is actually an officer, an assistant. Yes. A digital employee. Yes. And what you do then is read that out, for example from a CRM system, which is put into it, or is it actually the other way around? Both are possible. Yes, all in all if an order comes in, it might not immediately, uh, come from CRM. So, uh, I think it depends a bit on the signal or, uh, yeah, or whatever is happening. Hmm hmm. Um, I see from the CRM side that an agent is more focused on providing the right moments of information based on how the customer behaves. Yes. Um, I think from the EAP perspective that it's much more about what happens in terms of incoming orders? When do they need to order again, or when exactly do they order? And which repetitive actions actually occur then? And uh and and that is much more on a fixed trajectory, I think. I think companies know quite well that when this happens, we always carry out these 3 to 10 steps. Yes. Um, but I think that's more about processing, and with CRM, I think it's more about being able to act proactively. But if you look at that flow , you know—because what you're actually saying is that those flows within the entire contact loop with your customers, as well as internally and with your suppliers, need to be very well documented, so to speak, before you can really have a good system built . Yes, which is very important, but that is the case anyway these days. There is a lot happening on the Jeek front at the moment. It's going really lightning fast. So is it now even more important to know exactly what my processes are? Where do I see points where people say: "I do the same thing every day." Yes. And then you will be able to automate points. But then you do indeed need to know your company very well . Yes. But does that mean that on the one hand you have to document processes on the ERP side just as you do on the CRM side? Yes , I think so. But I think that ERP is also much more process-driven. As you indicated right at the beginning, that also comes from within. It is of course really an internal system—a CRM in a way too—but that is also very much driven by what your customers ask for at certain moments. So yes, there are certainly processes, but I think there is more of a mindset in CRM. So, for example, we want to visit our customers x times a year. Uh, we want us to call within so many hours if a request comes in. So those are more ways of thinking. That's how I see it. And I think that EP really consists of documented processes to manage your internal business operations as well as possible. Yes. Yes. And and how does AI help with that, uh, or EAI—everyone has a different term for it—but how does AI help with that at the moment? If I take a quick look within Business Central, which is a Microsoft solution, you have Copilot. You also have Copilot, so that is the AE solution or AI, however you want to put it . Uh, within Business Central. Well, it can already do all kinds of tasks now. Those agents are actually also part of, uh, that of the copilot. Um, so what you can do right now is that there is a chat function included, and it only looks at your own database. You can ask which customer most recently had an order lagging behind, but also a lot regarding the stock levels. Which items do I need to reorder? You can start asking questions to the system. Well, that is what it is increasingly being used for now, and therefore automating tasks. So that basically means that you enter into a conversation with the system to see what the smart decisions are that I need to make. Yes. And he is already giving advice as well. If you open a customer, for example, you can already see that you can view this from Copilot, and then it provides what is essentially a summary of the customer. Yes. Yes. And in that, you see it going further and further. So you see, um, previously you really had to run analyses. Hmm hmm. And then you had to click all sorts of things together. And now you can simply ask Coopilot within Business Central: "I would like a report on my cash flow or a cash flow report and take such and such into account," and then it will give it to you. So that is very different. Work. Yes. Well, this morning at the BNA there was a uh interview with uh a man who had conducted research into increasing the productivity of uh improvement of uh offices through the use of AI. And a great many companies indicated that they do not see any real productivity improvement. So what makes you think that productivity gains can be achieved there? Well , I think it's quite fun. A colleague of mine has conducted research into this. Yes. Wouter, uh, that's his name too, coincidentally. He presented that recently as well. Um, he really looked at how do you get an organization on board? What you often see is that decisions regarding AI are made top-down. We are going to focus on that. You will all receive a Copilot license. Go ahead and use it. Yes. But it is much better to look at what people need. So ask the people themselves. And he conducted research into that. How do you ensure you get people on board with this ? Because otherwise, you wo n't achieve that productivity if you make decisions top-down. So it will end up being human work again after all. Yes. Ultimately, you want someone to look into their own role and see for themselves how they can take small steps. Yes. And you shouldn't expect the world all at once either , because people need to learn to work with this as well. But that is actually the same process we saw with CRM in the beginning. That no one really used the CRM. for which it was intended. I certainly think you still see that at companies . Yes, that actually involves training people on how to do the integration between CRM and ERP—really taking people along in that whole process. That is a very important one. Yes. And also because it is moving so fast and you also have people who are a bit anxious, so they think: "Ooh, how is AR going to handle this? Is it going to take over my job or can't I do this? This is too much for me technically speaking, because obviously a lot is happening." Then you specifically want people to be given the space themselves to—yes, should that have taken a whole study beforehand, but also how you can embed that in your work by paying attention to it for fifteen minutes a day, by pausing to reflect on it every now and then. Hmm hmm. But especially if it comes from within yourself, because you know the processes of how you work best. So actually, bring the organization along—uh, that was his advice. That seems like very simple advice. Yes. But then also with a certain structure—uh, that's called job crafting. Otherwise, that you also give people the space to work on that during their working hours . Hmm hmm. Make sure you have a few leaders, those who are eager to bring the rest along . Yes. And what, then, is the role you have in such a process as suppliers and partners? Um, uh, I think it's mainly guiding and making them realize how important this is. And I think that, uh—and I think this is where the human aspect comes in—that the moment you start talking to companies and you want to set up, automate, or digitize certain processes together, you really look at it together: okay, but what is this going to bring us as a company, but also really as individuals—and focus primarily on that. Look, what we see a lot in CRM is that certain functionalities are requested that they perhaps, uh, never thought about in the 20 years prior, and now suddenly have to . Uh yes, and actually it is just very simple: the 'why' question, and trying to challenge that and arrive at a certain solution together. Um, if it isn't supported by management and the people, well, then the risk is certainly there with CRM, right, because that is, well, I always call it a no-obligation system. That is not entirely my perspective , but that is how it is perceived. Yes, is the chance of, uh, non-use then extremely high? Then, uh, then it becomes a chore, and, uh, and you can work outside of CRM, and you must avoid that at all times . Yes. Can you also work outside the ERP system, or... then you have to be very creative. No, that is, uh, if you are a wholesaler, that is actually impossible, because it contains all your items, your stock; you order from it, you receive it. If you have your own warehouse, it handles the entire management as well. Your accounting is in it, so actually not. It actually goes wrong that very day if you don't, uh, do it, right? We sometimes see companies where I think: "How did you keep it up for so long keeping track of all this in Excel and then only working with what is actually a bookkeeping system? " Hmm hmm. But once you have ERP, you wo n't go back. But, but well, well, you hear me saying about the CRM and the ERP: that is actually a great combination. But we still see companies where people are retyping things to transfer them from one system to another. So what exactly makes those people take that step now? And I think above all that you need to empower the systems . An ERP system has no or very limited capabilities to create opportunities to use meeting minutes. So first make sure you take a very close look at where to put which system in the front. Well, we definitely support that. Don't do any custom work or anything like that in your ERP to cover this either. Please don't. No, then go look at a system where they have really thought it through and where it is included. Um, I think you start with that and then see which data needs to be exchanged. And even then, that is still reasonably limited if you use those systems for what they are intended for . So don't try to overlap both, that they can both do everything . And then it is mainly about a piece of customer data, actually the points where we have already, uh, stood still. But that essentially means you are talking about choosing, making choices. Yes. Um, those choices are sometimes difficult, I think, because if you choose one thing, you're also choosing not to choose something else. Um, what kind of dilemmas does that present when making decisions regarding the setup of ERP combined with CRM? Yes, I don't know if there really are, uh, dilemmas . I think if it doesn't happen then uh then I think it's mainly uh just the fear of change. Hmm hmm. So that overtyping you were just talking about . Yes, basically that makes absolutely no sense, of course. But if people have been doing it that way for 20 years—and it does n't matter whether we're talking about systems or whatever—but this is of course a, well, a general thing. That’s just where, I think, the difficult part lies, the challenge. In any case, we notice that clearly from our side . I'm also curious how that is with you guys , but uh yeah, change management. Yes, that is, you actually want to take people along with it step by step. That is also coming to see the benefits of something . Yes. Yes. And where do you start? With CRM or with ERP? Yes, ERP is often actually what we were just talking about . That is a must, and CRM is often seen as a nice-to-have. I find it more of a must to be able to do it well. But um, so I do think you often start with your ERP. And the only unfortunate thing is that some companies think: "Yes, but then I'll just create a few extra fields, then you have a kind of CRM." No, it is not a CRM system. Therefore, we advise: "Do you want to do more with this? Move to a real CRM system." Yes, they really are two different worlds, I suppose, that can just dabble a bit. Yes. And what you do have, look, you also have some companies where you have a bit less to do. They don't have account managers, for example. They focus primarily on online activities. Yes. And uh, then you only have a customer service component, or a component for when questions come in. Yes. Then you might not need a full CRM, because you don't want just one; you're not going to record everything about every customer. But if you are a reputable B2B company and you have account managers with regular clients , then you actually want them to have a CRM to be able to document everything. Nice. Nice. Yes. Yes. Well, that brings us to the end of this podcast. Uh, of course you have to end with a good question. Um, what is the most important tip you have that will make an impact when it comes to the synchronization between EP and CRM? for synchronization. Yes, I think that is the most important thing, and certainly in this whole era we are actually in. I'm going to take a very close look at where I put which system in the front. Applies to CRM, ERP, and could be other systems as well. And where do I need which data? Make sure you have all that in order. Because now that AI is becoming increasingly prevalent and we can automate more and more, you must first have the foundation solid. Bright. And do you have another specific tip? Well, they are very close to each other. Um, the the the where is indeed very important. For me, that is also just really, uh, the why. So, uh, why do you need certain data somewhere, and what should it primarily bring you? Um, and don't go looking for an uh overkill in that, because that uh that will really go wrong. And that is certainly on the CRM side. Are you going to move a lot of data there, and people open that system for the first time and see a lot of fields, a lot of data? I've actually already lost her there. So, um yeah, less is more. Less is more. That is a beautiful creature. Um, my takeout is that people are primarily at the center and that it is true change management. That you have to change people's mindset to understand why the systems are the way they are and how you can organize better customer service with those systems, and also get a grip on the processes, so to speak, in a way that really fits well with what you are all doing and what the company is doing, so to speak . This was, uh, the podcast from Impact Makers by SuperOffice. Sitting at the table with me today were Succeedited's lead sales representative , uh Samant Pijl, and uh Wouter as co-host of the SuperOffice. My name is Hardy van Ek. I am a sales philosopher and I was glad that you were, uh, listening again. Thank you, Harry. Thank you.