Um, Hunter Biden...

I wish I could say I'm on my way to saintthood. I'm not even close on my way to >> degenerate. Yeah, I am. That's exactly right. >> Welcome to the club. >> Yeah. >> Hunter Biden, the son of President Joe [music] Biden. >> Hunter has been in the center of major political and legal controversies. >> He addresses his lifelong battle with addiction. >> When I took my first drink, it seemed to be an answer to everything. And then it wasn't just Coke, it was crack. And then you chase that [music] answer into your own prison cell. And I had the binary choice of live or die. >> The intensity >> Yeah. >> of what you had to endure. Like I don't think anybody can understand what that must have been like. >> I was given the greatest gift that any addict could ever ask for if they can survive it. Total and complete exposure. That [music] has stuck with me. The shame. I don't know why I haven't even telling you this right now. [music] If you think that you are alone, I'm [music] here to tell you you can make it. It's great to have you here, man. I'm so excited to talk to you. We have uh a bunch of points of intersection. We're both of a certain age. We're about the same age. And we both came up in and around DC in the late 80s and early 90s. You know, I was doing what I was doing and you were in and out. I mean, you went to Georgetown. My parents live in Georgetown. >> I was thinking this morning, there's a fairly decent chance we might have been at the same bar at the same time. I promise you [laughter] if you were at any >> partying uh and and and not realizing it, >> it's auditory this this mission that you're on. I mean there are very few people whose lives are not touched by addiction either directly or indirectly or tangentially. Uh, and I see you as somebody who has done a lot of work and is now whole enough to enter the public sphere and talk about this not from a perspective of of trying to repair your public image, but from a real serviceoriented motivation to advance understanding and compassion around this cunning, baffling, and powerful disease that has afflicted you, it's afflicted me, >> it's an animating, you know, reason why I do this podcast. Uh, and even if it impacts one life positively and saves them from some of the suffering, you know, that you suffered and I have suffered, then it's worth it, you know, and I and it comes across loud and clear. It's clear that's why you're doing it. Where does the, you know, addiction story begin for you? I first got sober in 2003. I'm I'm going to go back. Um and when I first the first time I got sober, which I stayed sober for extended period of time. And uh um I was a firm believer in the idea that that you know I was a drunk because I was genetically predisposed to be a drunk and and that's it. And [clears throat] there doesn't have to be any other reason. >> I mean that's very much an AA thing. It's like we don't really need to spend a lot of time wondering why, you know, I'm starting to change my mind about that. >> And I did. And um this time around and uh and one of the one of the people that helped change my mind was uh uh Kabora Mate, >> Dr. Mate, same for me. >> Yeah. and uh and based upon his own um uh anecdotal evidence as uh treating um hardcore addicts in Toronto for extended periods of Toronto, right? Or Vancouver. Vancouver. Yeah, Vancouver for an extended period of time. >> He came to the conclusion that not, you know, a large percentage but 100% of the people that he was treating all experienced um significant trauma in their lives. And it may not be a direct causal connection to addiction, but it is a um but there is an obvious connection just by virtue of that as he I think says in some of the things about she said he there's not a single person that is an addict that he has treated that has not had significant trauma in their life. >> Um and so yeah, >> for me where does my addiction begin? Part of it may be my genetic predisposal um to uh to addiction, which they haven't been able to figure out, you know, what gene that is necessarily, but part of it's a trauma of um of my early childhood. My mom and sister and my brother and I were in a car accident. It was an incredibly violent um uh uh accident that killed both of them. My brother and I were trapped in the car for an extended period of time. um they finally got us out and I spent I spent about a month in the hospital with traumatic brain injury and my brother spent um you know longer in a body cast for extended period of time >> and equally significant was the fact that it was essentially like never to be spoken about again. >> Yeah, it was >> it wasn't there wasn't like an open kind of like let's heal this wound kind of environment. My mom as we called her mommy. Mommy and Casby were always spoken about, but never the accident and never that trauma afterwards. Never the um you know the aspect of loss. It was only the honoring of the of the um of her memory of their memory. And um and the reality was is that I was surrounded by love after that. My aunt Valerie moved in with us and um she raised Bo and I when uh until my dad got remarried and we got remarried as we we say and my uncle Jimmy converted the the garage into an apartment for himself and he was there and my my my grandparents on both sides we spent you know uh [sighs] you know an enormous amount of time with and then the wider community because my dad had just got elected. He was 29. And so my childhood was filled a lot of love. But you know what? I was um uh my brother and I reacted very differently uh to to it. You know, I was filled with anxiety. And when I took my first drink, um I remember it clear as day is that before I got sick from uh over taking too much of the alcohol in is that it seemed to be an answer to everything. >> Mhm. >> You know, >> how old were you? Well, I mean, at that time, I literally snuck a glass of champagne under a table like when I was eight years old, eight or nine years old and um and uh and then snuck another and um and I didn't like continue drinking after that, but I remember that um vividly remember that. And um and then when I you know I started drinking in high school and it was the thing that you know you could ask the girl to dance and you know and or you could um you know whatever it is that whatever feeling of being alone in a room uh uh full of people however it manifested itself was gone once I took a drink and um and that you know and and so I developed a persona around uh drinking in Georgetown. I think the reason that I most wanted to go to Georgetown because the drinking age was 18 in DC until the year I got there. >> Yeah, I know. Like I got grandfathered in. I think um I think I was right on the cusp there. But now it was kind of amazing. I'm 59 about to turn you grandfathered. Yeah. Yeah. >> And uh yeah, just being 18 and going hog wild. Yeah. >> It was, you know, it was a good time. I mean it works. That's the thing >> that you're speaking to also. They say why? Because it worked. >> It's very effective. Suddenly, no anxiety. You can walk into >> the high school dance or the bar or the cocktail party and just >> no problem. >> Yeah. And I think when I talk to a girl, I can like, you know, be care tell a joke. All of that. >> Yeah. And I think when we say anxiety to people out there, it's like everybody has a little anxiety. what are you talking well I you know and I don't know whether it's this like um circular you know I mean reinforcement but you know the anxiety to me was almost debilitating it it made me feel empty inside I you know and and now I I I know what all of it is and whether is the result of the trauma and things like that but it was all fear >> everything every bad decision that I made every habit that I formed was uh based on fear. And what I mean by that was it's was with everyone is that we all have this delusion or illusion that that uh that we need to be afraid of of people, places, things um ourselves of being found out that you're not really who you profess to be that the mask is going to come off. And so anyway, going forward to what you were saying was so nice to say, and I really mean that. It means a great deal to me, particularly coming from you, is this idea that I've done the work and that it shows. [laughter] Here's another really honest thing. I was given the greatest gift that any addict could ever ask for if they can survive. It is total and complete exposure. I was so publicly humiliated, so publicly exposed with literally video and and uh you know uh in in Technicolor [snorts] on every newspaper in the globe on every TV screen for a period of time. I was the third most spoken about person on Fox News for a 4-year period of time other than Donald Trump and my father. And on top of that, they did 16 hours of documentary film and they took all the pictures from my my digital life and, you know, put them up for everybody to see. And [snorts] wasn't just coke, it was crack, you know what I mean? And it was this much crack and it was that. And what that did is it it it gave me a binary choice. I wish I could say that it was the result of what most people have to do in order to get to the space that at least I hoped that I'm in today, which is this incredible freedom of being exactly who I am and being comfortable with that, which is they just completely obliterated my ego and I had the binary choice of live or die. I could go back and I could use and I knew I would die. And if I didn't die a physical death, I'd obviously die at a an even worse type of death. Or I could choose to live. And I chose to live. And I had to learn how to live in that um uh in that fishbowl. And with everybody seeing all of my faults, not just the pictures, but like the the out of context text to um uh you know, like calling my mother a bad name in in a in a fit of anger and and and addiction um you know, or like lashing out at so and so or you know, like everything. Everything. how I spent my money, you know, on, you know, on sex and and things like all of it. All of it. There's nothing out there that um there's nothing that is that I have as a secret anymore. >> I don't think anybody could have had their covers pulled and been more nakedly exposed than you, like in the history of the human race. By the way, absolutely insane that you survived that. I mean, there's rock bottom and there's the dark knight of the soul, but the intensity >> Yeah. >> of what you had to endure like to burn in those flames for such an extended period of time. >> I I don't think any anybody can can like understand what that must have been like. >> No. And and here's the thing. I mean like the New York Post, you know, I I I was told I don't know whether it's true or apocryphal that I was on the cover of the New York Post in like a year period of time more than any single other individual in the history of the paper going back to when it was founded uh in like the late 1700s. And in that though, which you you like you it just creates a choice. If we can get back to the idea of how did how do we allow that to happen to anyone? >> I mean, can you imagine it to any other person where people wouldn't stand up and say, but they didn't. You know why they didn't? And the reason I'm out there talking about it is because I was a crack addict. and they have a vision and idea of what a crack is >> the lowest of the low in drug >> addict and then you take crack you know what I mean I think that the uh you know I joke the only thing worse would be a meth addict but the meth addicts all online tell me [ __ ] you >> worse but it's sufficiently dehumanizing that no one's losing sleep over taking shots at you >> exactly no by the way no one didn't matter whether it was on MSNBC or whether it was on Fox News on the the left, they dismiss me as being a uh degenerate fail son who's drifted off his father coattails his whole life. And so, you know, but that's not Joe Biden's problem. It's his problem as a father, not as a president. So, you know, just stay in the corner over here. [gasps] >> That level of dismissal was was probably the hardest. It was the hardest to to um for me to get comfortable with um and and accept as being uh the reality of my life at that moment in time. The other one was easier because it was such just costic. It was just so vitriolic and and irrational in um you know they spin from you know that addiction which is really easy to do. It's called eliminationist rhetoric. And what they do is, you know, they they uh they [sighs] they put into the into the the bloodstream of the public the worst possible accusation that you can make about someone, which is that they're a pedophile. And that's the original thing that Rudy Giuliani and Bernie Carrick did. They went and stood on the courthouse steps in Newcastle County in Delaware and they held a laptop, which was not my laptop, and uh and talked about inappropriate images of children. And what that does is is that if 5% of the people can believe that, then 50% of the people can believe that you're capable of bribery or influence pedaling or anything else. One of the things that I point out to everybody is that I don't know anybody in public life uh that has been more exposed, had their digital life more exposed than me. 22 years of my entire digital footprint, and I'm not talking about a laptop. This is why I always say there is the laptop is [ __ ] What I'm talking about is 22 years of everything. Everything that was deleted, everything that was still existed in a cloud somewhere. So every deleted photo, every actual photo that was uh still in a cloud. They had all my voicemails going back a decade. My voicemails from different devices over the period of that time. They had every text message, every single deleted or otherwise. They had um every single email and you know what was not in that all of that. That's why I always say show me yours. Is this not a single instance of a single communication from me to anyone that worked for my dad or my dad saying, "Hey, I need you to do this on behalf of someone that I'm getting paid by." Not one. Not one. So the thing that is most attached to my name as a symbol of criminality is actually the thing that is the most exculpatory that uh to me. But anyway, back to what we were saying in terms of level of of the recovery and why now for me I don't have any fear anymore. And I have a message for people that are still out there sick and suffering. If you think that you are alone in your misery and can't climb out of the of the well of addiction that you fell into, I'm here to tell you, you can make it. And no matter what the consequences that are coming down the pike for you, I promise you, >> you can make it. >> I mean, if you could survive that >> Yeah. I mean >> whatever somebody is going through there's there's always hope and there's always help but it is it is a you know relapse is also a large you know part of your story and I want to talk about uh you know right thinking around relapse >> it's all about willingness you know it's sobriety isn't for the people that need it it's for the people that want it and you can't impose willingness on another human being and so the hopefulness and the possibility of achieving sobriety is very much a function of your internal drive and that has to be arrived upon organically, right? Like you had to be beaten down like nobody's business to arrive at a place where you were broken enough to try to do this a different way. Uh and everybody has their own version of that, right? You can't just tell somebody, "Hey, it's time." Like they have to decide that it's time. >> Yeah, that's exactly right. And you know I one of the other things that I say all the time and I steal all this [ __ ] by the way. None of it's original to me. Any any of these like great lines that I have are 100% stolen from people that are much wiser than me that I listen to in the rooms a long time ago. And one of them is that I use all the time is um getting sober's easy. All you got to do is change everything. >> Yeah, I've heard that one many times. >> And to me there's a real truth to that. and uh and I got really really uh lucky and I view it as a as as a miracle, but I've witnessed others that in recovery that have received this miracle is the angel of uh Melissa in in my life, my wife. Now, [gasps] it's really really hard. And I the thing that I'm most imp the people I'm most impressed by in this world are the people that uh that that uh that do it alone that don't have the support system that I did. But when I met Melissa, she just intuitively knew things that um that I hadn't hadn't done before. I mean, she took every she she took my phone, she erased every single number in it. She uh you know she moved us to a house that was secluded in the in the hills and um you know she took my car key she but she had to act as my jailer for a period of time but it was also a complete shift in I didn't have to return immediately to the um to the chaos or what some people would call the comfort of of uh of all the people that desperately were trying to get me clean and sober. And in that separation from that uh I found something that I had never accessed before in the early days or at any period um in recovery which was my practice of art which I had done my whole life but I never had done it to the degree that I um uh seven years ago uh um became a way of life for me. And um and so those two things and I always say to people like I found my purpose not with a big P, you know what I mean? Like I think that's kind of like it's kind of [ __ ] and if you or not it's not [ __ ] but it it sets people up for failure. This idea that you know like yeah why you know I work at McDonald's and I need to get clean and sober and you're telling me to find my purpose you know when I'm working two shifts and I'm driving an Uber. I'm like, >> "Yeah, I mean, I think these words do more harm than good often, you know, because they make people feel bad because they don't know what their purpose is or like what, you know, like you need to find meaning." It's like it's well intended, but like, you know, if you're someone like myself who's walking around insecure and feeling like a a fraud and all that, like it's just totally [laughter] like you're like, "What do you find?" You know, like, "Oh, well, good luck with that." You know, >> find your bliss. You know what I mean? like and I'm like just Jesus Christ I'm just trying to get out of bed. But for me what I mean by it with the small P purpose is that I literally found something to do with my hands. I you know one of the things about crack addiction that I always uh say to people is that there's a ritual piece of it and the habit of the pipe and I mean I can do all of the hand motions still and it's it's I'm 70 years removed and I'll be able to do them for the rest of my life and there's this thing about ignition and things and all of these things that are are brain body um connections that that I realized that when I was painting and it doesn't have to be painting. It doesn't have to. It could be um running. It could be. All I'm saying is that I know for me, I don't have a prescription for anything else, but what helped me was giving me something to do hours at a time in my free time that took me out of my head, occupied my my body and my hands in particular in an exercise that at the end of I felt like I had done something. And um and I've watched people do it with um athletic things. I've watched people do it with um uh uh you know gardening. I've watched people do it with but I just felt like I and I still feel to this day if there's any prescription that I have is uh I find that to be a really really important part at least of my recovery. >> Mr. Andrew Yang, would you say that your relationship with your phone is intentional or reactive? >> Mostly reactive, unfortunately. Uh, you could even say abusive where it just sends me pings and notifications and vibrations and I just run to it and respond saying, "What is it? What's the matter?" >> Well, I got good news for you, Andrew, because there is a cellular company that's going to help you with that very problem. And it's actually gonna pay you to use your phone less. >> Well, I do like money. What's it called? >> It's called Noble Mobile. Have you heard of it? >> I have. In a dream, it came. [music] [laughter] >> If you want to learn about Noble Mobile, the company founded by the great Andrew Yang sitting next to me right now. 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For people that don't have direct experience with addiction, uh it it's important to understand the degree of self-obsession uh that takes place in the addict's mind and the incessant, you know, looping of self-defeating narratives. Like you're just lost in your head. >> Yeah. >> And it feels impossible to interrupt that or or to arrest that in any way. And for you, like what I see is somebody who found art as a way to quiet that. Like, oh, I can just disabuse myself of my self-obsession for a moment because I'm present with this thing that I'm creating. >> And that becomes like a wedge where you're like, "Oh, it is possible to not just be thinking about myself all the time." >> And then to have something three-dimensional or two-dimensional that you were like, "Oh, I did this. Oh, by the way, everything I you created at first was genius. >> Yeah. I mean, who cares whether it's bad or good? >> Picasso. >> The point is that uh that you're making yourself like at least nominally useful. Uh and you're you're getting outside of your head, you know what I mean? And ultimately that can with greater work become an act of service. I mean, service is the antidote to the self-obsessive mind of the addict. and that's what you're doing and showing up in all these public forums, but you have to find something like for me it was running. But I think where it gets confusing for people is they start to conflate like whether it's the art or something athletic. They start to think that that's the solution to the addiction. like this is just like one spoke in a wheel and it doesn't come at the cost of actually like working the program and you know like learning a new way of life to your point like you have to change everything >> and first and foremost you have to put your sobriety first and you have to like work these steps and like do all the [ __ ] [ __ ] that they tell you to do that sounds stupid and you have to believe in all of these apherisms that you know feel like your you know grandmother came up with >> and that's part of it and then you get to like sit down and you know draw something or paint a picture and get out of your own head for a minute. One of the things that kept me trapped in my addiction, in the cycle of relapse that I was in, was that I wasn't being honest with the people around me. And in doing so, I wasn't being honest with myself. And I had all these secrets, you know, that all um uh had to do with uh my failure to stay uh clean and sober for, you know, it was like a the 10y year odyssey um nine-year odyssey. And um and the shame of that, you know, not just the shame of the rooms that you find yourself in, but the shame of failure, of not being able to uh of not being able to to uh to find a way through uh with the >> and the spectre of a father who's literally >> Yeah. But even with that, I think everybody can associate with this. It's just a shame of your to my my kids, you know, my three older girls who were in their teens at the time that I went through the really harshest part after my brother's death of u of uh my addiction is that I had I was ever present in their lives. Most of their lives I was they didn't know me to have a problem. I they knew that I was in recovery and um but I was I was uh I was never absent. And when they lost their uncle who was like a second father to them because we were that close, I wasn't there. You know, I became lost in my own addiction. And that's what I always say is that again, I steal all these things is that um addiction is never an excuse, but at least it's an explanation. And it's an explanation uh there that that uh I before could never admit the things that I had done that I should have felt guilty for to myself or otherwise because it just filled me with shame and appropriately. And I realized that guilt is an appropriate emotion, meaning that you should feel bad and seek amends for the things that you've done to wrong to other people um or to yourself. Um but shame is something that's telling you that you're not worthy of their love ever and you get trapped in that cycle. >> Guilt is feeling bad about something you did. Shame is uh you know basically the idea that you're a bad person, >> not somebody who did a bad thing. >> Exactly. >> And guilt and shame, unless you reckon with them uh and make peace with your past, is inevitably just leading you back to using. every single relapse that I had between 2010 and 2019 >> and there were dozens >> dozens of attempts. You know, >> you wrote kind of an incredible uh piece on your Substack about relapse and I wanted to >> I wanted to read a little bit of it. I won't read the whole thing, but I want to read a part of it. Uh it's titled The Addiction of Nations. Uh and you can find it on Hunter Substack. Relapse does not begin with a drink or a pill. It begins with a thought. The thought arrives quietly. It does not announce itself as danger. If it did, the person would recognize it immediately and shut it down. Instead, it appears in a form so ordinary that it passes unnoticed at first, the way a small seed disappears into soil before anyone thinks to mark where it landed. The moment usually occurs during something unremarkable. Driving home from work, sitting alone at a kitchen table after the house has gone quiet, walking past a place that used to mean something else. The mind drifts and somewhere inside the drift, a sentence begins to assemble itself. Not a declaration, more like a suggestion. Maybe things are different now. The sentence is so small that it hardly feels like a decision. It feels like curiosity. The mind turns it over once, then sets it down again. A person who has lived through addiction knows this moment well enough to distrust it. But distrust alone is rarely enough to erase it. The thought remains, and once it remains, it begins to grow. Not all at once. Slowly, the way a root system spreads beneath the ground where no one can see it. The mind begins constructing explanations around the idea. The explanations feel reasonable because they borrow the language of responsibility and self-control. You have learned something. You understand the consequences now. You are not the person you were then. The thought becomes a narrative. The narrative becomes a permission structure. And by the time the person recognizes what has happened, the small seed that appeared earlier in the day has grown into something much larger, an oak tree in the middle of the mind. At that point, the relapse is already underway. The substance comes later. I mean, that's so beautiful. It's a very eloquent and poetic way of saying, you know, the the the relapse train pulls out of the station well before the drink. And it is this seed of a thought that at its inception, you know, is crazy and insane, but if you don't find a way to deal with it, it will linger. And it is a seed that you will unconsciously fertilize >> to the point where it's impo like by the time you pick up the drink or the drug like >> there's no thought involved like it's a done deal and sometimes it's it's a conscious decision and sometimes it's that unconscious thing where you know you hear these stories all the time like oh I just I was in this situation and then it just occurred to me to like order the drink and then I was drinking and I don't even know how it happened. Well, it happened because of all the things that you just, you know, kind of beautifully elaborated on. >> The only [clears throat] thing at least I I this is my talk about the work. The only thing that I allow myself to live in fear of is my own mind. It is like just you reading that back to me gave me chills because every addict knows exactly what it's like. >> Yeah. I mean that was like reading my mind. >> Yeah. And the hardest hardest thing at least for me one of the hardest things in recovery is in any way trying to articulate to those who have not experienced the why of it. Like how how like all the work that you put in all of the the healing that had been done all of the the consequences that you know that you're going to face. There's a scene in that movie that got kind of got panned um in uh with Denzel Washington, you know, where he's flight. >> Yeah. A friend of mine wrote that movie. >> Yeah. >> So that scene and you'll know the one I'm talking about. >> It's it's it's the most accurate description of alcoholism on screen that I've ever seen. >> Ever seen. And it's him in the hotel room. He knows that he has the biggest day in his life. That if he just makes it through this, he's back in the captain's chair. and that everybody on screen that has not faced addiction looked at what he did and thought that that was a Hollywood um you know [ __ ] Like of course he wouldn't go into the mini bar and drink the mini bar. [clears throat] >> But I mean you just you know exactly what's going to happen. So [sighs] it is and uh today is different but I really lived like this today like I did not wake up today and and there was not even a seed um and there's also I don't know with you about you I know for me there's this delicate dance of not giving these uh experiences and and this uh this knowledge too much weight that it paralyzes you in your life while at the same time being constantly aware >> Mhm. >> of that in your life. You know, here's another really selfish reason why I'm doing what I'm doing right now. You know, I say because it's in service to other people that are still out there sick and suffering. The real honest answer is is first and foremost it's in service to myself is the person that I'm helping the most by speaking about my experience is me. >> Yeah. the the you know service being this cornerstone of recovery like you're not going to be able to maintain long-term sobriety if you're not uh you know of service to those that are still suffering and that comes across as some kind of sacrifice or martyrdom. Uh but the truth is is there's a selfish motive to this. Like it's actually like selfish service because in sponsoring somebody else or showing up for somebody else, >> this is more [clears throat] healing to you than it is to the other person. And it's a necessary aspect of disabusing yourself of the obsession of the mind and investing yourself in the well-being of somebody else that is essential to maintaining sobriety. So it is a selfish act to be >> selfless in your service. Uh, and if service feels like annoying or inconvenient or whatever, couching it in in those selfish terms, uh, makes it easier to pick up the phone and call that person who's having a hard time when you're sitting and spinning and lost in thought and like just, you know, kind of rehashing what happened yesterday or, you know, like terrified about what's going to happen tomorrow. >> Yeah. you know, as much as I was exposed, you know, there are those moments of um in my addiction in which I, you know, that I still experience as, you know, as like real, you know, traumas. um and and left to my own devices and in my own head, you know, they become that seed. [snorts] >> And so again, like >> the big thing though >> is I wish I could say like I'm I'm on my way to saintthood. I'm not even [ __ ] close on my way to You're a [ __ ] degenerate. >> Yeah, I am. I am. That's exactly right. >> Welcome to the club. Uh >> at the core of all of this is resentment. Resentment >> is always going to lead you back to relapse. >> Yeah. >> Resentment is an indulgence that the addict or the [clears throat] alcoholic cannot afford. And I don't know if there's anyone on planet earth who is more entitled to resent certain people than you. like so many people >> directly vilified you, you know, it's it's absurd to call it the town square. I mean, like globally, right? So, I'm interested in how you were able to relinquish what I'm sure were deep-seated resentments against these people who were attacking you uh for things that were not evidence-based or unfairly or whatever in your mind. >> Okay, everybody's going to get mad at me. But uh again, why do you think I went on Tucker Carlson? Because one of my deepest resentments >> so that you could overcome your resentment towards him. >> Yeah. You know, I know Tucker for 30 years, and I didn't know him well. We weren't close friends in any way. >> Do you know him from the program? No, I didn't know from the program, but he lived in the same neighborhood in Spring Valley where I was, and we had a lot of mutual friends going back to the time when, you know, uh, my high school girlfriend, uh, went to high school with him. I mean, I I've known Tucker and his wife and my wife at the time. became running buddies and friends and and and so we were never friends, but we were um but but we knew each other and we were acquaintances and >> which makes all the vilification on his part all the more painful. >> Yeah. >> Because you had a you already had a relationship that he was saying wasn't true. >> And what can I do um in service? I think part of service is is that you need to do things in service of yourself, even if they're hard. And resentments are the hardest. And like you said, I have resentments towards, you know, the Miranda Divine at the New York Post and I have resentments towards and what I I've decided is is that um I just have to just go head on. And um you know when Tucker asked if I wanted to talk to him, I said, "Yeah, I do." Because number one, it it it um it gave me a lot of anxiety. >> Mhm. >> And I've decided to do everything that I'm scared to do. I used to be scared to sit down. You put a microphone at me and and it, you know, it was hard for me to formulate my thoughts and fast as I wanted to or to sound as good as I thought that I needed to sound or to not stammer a little bit and, you know, take out all the ands and butts and ums. And, you know, I don't even think about that anymore. And uh part of the reason is is because I keep in the back of my mind rich has seen the worst of me. [laughter] And I don't have to pretend to be anything other than the person that I am sitting in front of him right now or make excuses or defend myself in any way. I just need to be me. >> And you don't need anything from that other person. Like if you were to everything Tucker said about you negatively and clipped it together into like it would probably be hours of you know >> just >> something very difficult to sit through and then you're sitting across from him and he's he's like pretty cheery about it's not like he's like oh my god you know I can't believe I saw you there's none of that right >> but I also didn't get the sense that you needed that from him. No, >> you know, you were just like, I'm here to like overcome my own resentment. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And it has nothing to do with how he responds to me. It's all about my relationship to this dynamic. >> It's the reverse of what we learn about forgiveness is that we as as addicts have to see amends and we have to seek forgiveness, but not the result of it. The act of actually going and and saying you're sorry with sincerity is not about whether or not that person forgives you. It's about the fact that you do it. Again, it's incredibly selfish. >> And the same thing with resentment is it's it's my thing. It's not theirs. I it's it's for me to lay down. >> Yeah. And um because I I I could live the rest of my life just filled with hate over what they did to me and how they did. You know how I think about it now? They gave me the most incredible beautiful gift that I've ever been given in my entire life, which was complete in total liberty. Complete freedom from all of my secrets, complete freedom from all of the shame. They gave me this incredible chance at a life in which I could simply be who I am. Everything and and every day trying to do the next right thing and failing so often. Like I guarantee you I'm going to do enough things in this podcast alone to piss off 30% of the people that'll be on here calling me a pedophile and this and that and the other thing and make decisions and do things that are, you know, but it doesn't even remotely affect me. And uh now I'm open to criticism, you know what I mean? I'm I'm open if I'm going to be public and I'm going to be talking, then, you know, I should be responsible for the things that I say and hopefully not be misleading or or or uh doing something in a way that is hurtful or harmful to somebody else. But you know uh again like I wish I could say that you know that this practice that I had came to me through this an enormous amount of like hard work and I moved to Rishihash and I lived with a monk for 7 years and I you know and and I practiced but most of it was um [music] uh just pure survival. >> Yeah. Fasting has been a recurring and very popular topic on this show. And over the years, I've hosted so many experts on it, more than I can count. And the throughine is always the same. The benefits are real and evidence-based. But actually doing it is kind of hard. Well, [music] Prolong gets this and it solves this problem for you. It's a 5-day plant-based program. 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As summer winds down, crowds thin out and the events arrive, the marathons, the festivals, the games, and suddenly hundreds of thousands of people are descending on a city for a weekend. I've been on the traveler side of that equation plenty, landing in a city that's completely full, scrolling Airbnb, and finding somebody's actual apartment, real [music] kitchen, local neighborhood. Every time I think about the person who lives there, off on their own trip, their home [music] earning its keep while they're gone. Because that's the flip side almost nobody thinks about. When the big event comes to your town, that's your moment. Accommodations fill up fast and your place with your comfortable chair and your good coffee setup and your actual functioning kitchen could be precisely what they're hoping [music] to find. You give somebody the comfort of a real home and you make real extra money. money to put towards your own travels or that renovation you've been circling. Your home doesn't have to just sit there while the biggest weekend of the year happens outside it. [music] Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host. [music] I completely understand this notion of of your ego death being a gift. I imagine that's difficult for the average person who hasn't kind of flirted in this world uh to to really get their heads around. So, I think it would be [clears throat] good if you could talk a little bit more in explaining that. I mean, obviously, it's our it's it's healing our broken parts that make us uh you know, able to be a healing energy for other people. >> And it's a level of humility uh because you've been beaten down. so deliberately for so long that allows you to be with other people who are undergoing challenges or or who disagree with you and to to kind of navigate those social environments with a degree of grace. Uh but how do you like further define that? >> Yeah, that's a great question and I'm not sure I have the answer, but I do know this is that my ego death was much easier on me than it was around for the people that love me. [sighs] the for the people that love me, for Melissa, for my children, for um my dad, uh um the uh my friends, people that really knew me, is that they have a righteous anger about it, you know, and it's very it's very trit for me to say, you know, or maybe it's not trait, but but it's uh for me on my lofty perch to say like, I forgive, let's move on. It was a gift to me. Well, it wasn't a gift for my wife who had people show up at our door when she was 7 months pregnant with uh with red hats on um and chase her down Mhalland Drive and drive her off the road. You know, it wasn't a gift for her when um you know, they surrounded when we moved to to uh Venice to get away from that. um when they literally sat out in the in the canal with uh bullhorns and >> and chanted anti-semitic uh stuff uh and uh [sighs] >> because she's Jewish and and uh and so there was a lot of violence in their speech and and and real actual threats of violence um that happened. So I and again in like you know I get to be this paragon of like of recovery and like oh it was a gift to me and all my secrets are exposed. Well what about all the people that were in those pictures that didn't ask for any of this that had to you know had to answer questions to you know their family and their friends and and their lives you know the innocent bystanders. Um and what about my mom? What about my sister? You know, what about my, you know, my aunts and uncles and and and and their righteous anger that the person that they know was was this was happening to. And I have to admit, I feel guilty about that. >> Sometimes I feel guilty that sometimes I'm not aware enough of the damage that was done to them. Just think about it from this perspective. my three older daughters uh who are all professionals and adults in in in their lives now. >> You know how hard it is like who's your dad, >> right? >> Well, 7 months ago when you answered that question, what do you do? Because I know that they love me more than anything in the world. But think of them. It feels, you know, for them to think that everywhere that they have to go, they have to to be in some kind of a defensive mode that they're either going to fight on my behalf or they're going to flee. That every relationship, every new job, every um new person that they meet at their university or thing is going to be the first thing is going to be what you know. >> Yeah. They can never outrun that. >> Never outrun it. I get to be here and talk to Rich Roll and I get to have this like incredible conversation about growth and spirituality and what I've discovered in the worst moment of my life was the greatest gift. And isn't that a beautiful thing? What about them? >> They're watching this podcast with, you know, a lot of [ __ ] you energy. >> Yeah. Not towards me anymore. and and and but I but but 100% um uh I the the [ __ ] you energy is is directed at the people that did this and um because there are people that did this. Let's also remember >> I take full responsibility for my addiction. I take full responsibility for the fact that I put a lot of it on camera. I take full responsibility for a whole lot of that stuff. But what I don't take responsibility is for the complete and total invasion of my privacy and the corruption of the narrative of what it actually said. And so there you know and so do I have a target in that in terms of who? Yeah. I mean for me because I know for certain that it is all the product of the depravity of Donald Trump himself. Um but again to your original question about this is um you know around resentment is yeah I've gotten to a great place like wow me I'm I'm you know what I mean and I really have I've gotten in a great place where I'm I can write that about relapse >> but there's people there's a lot of casualties out there with the people that you care about and for you, you know, overcoming your your resentments is life or death. >> But normal people are, >> you know, more than welcome to, you know, nourish their resentments without, you know, cataclysmic life consequences as a result of that. And so that's that's that's the gift of of the program and the tools. And not everybody, you know, has those tools as much as I think like everybody would be a better person if they went through the steps. Um, most people don't have to and and so they have to live with certain uh difficult emotions without the capacity to process them in the way that you have. But I would imagine like listen, you haven't transcended the mortal coil. Like there's got to be [ __ ] that you grind on still. >> Oh, of course. Damn. One of the things I grind on is is is um is Donald Trump, you know, and I'm and and I and and I say without any apology whatsoever or, you know, unap unapologetically is that um uh that there are people that are um that are deserving of of my derision, but I think of all of our derision. I think that there are people that are um you know there is a sickness that has descended upon the land [laughter] to be to be uh to to steal a uh another piece of pros and and and it's real. >> Mhm. >> In my estimation, it's real. It's not derangement syndrome. It's not anything. there's this um uh there's this uh license to cruelty um that exists and >> encouragement and permissiveness. >> Yeah. I had a really fascinating conversation with an undocumented um person yesterday that has been here for 38 years. They came when they were 2 years old and they went through the whole process uh you know of DACA and everything. excuse me, 28 years of DACA and um and then it ended when they were right at the end of it and Trump came in and they have had um uh three family members that they can't find now that have been put into detention. And the point that I made to them is their question was why? This doesn't make any sense. None of them are criminals. They've all been here for for decades. Yes, they they came here on no account of of their own quote unquote criminality of crossing the border >> and they paid taxes, you know, from [snorts] the moment they got jobs when they were 15, 16 years old is why are they targeting them? And the answer is this cruelty. Cruelty is the point with them. It's the first time and I think in uh I think since um you know in at least that behavior has been modeled by a president since Andrew Johnson and uh after the assassination of Abraham Lincoln is cruelty is the point. And um and by the way, that was my whole story as it relates to that, of this exposure, of this humiliation, um of this uh uh dehumanizing. That was the whole point. It was never about me. They thought that they were going to if they could kill me in whatever sense of the word, literal or figuratively, they would end my dad. and they were the he was the person that they feared the most just by polling in terms of of that and they were right. >> They did miscalculate uh though in that Trump thought he could go after you uh for being this addict and I think he um misunderstood how that was going to be received. I think that that really uh did not go well for him because because everybody >> has a relationship with somebody who was suffering in in this regard and >> you know best case scenario that fell flat uh and I think it in many ways it worked against him and I see now you know there is a tide that's shifting like I am hopeful uh you know when all of these sort of hardcore MAGA people are breaking ranks like it's fracturing. >> Yeah. And I think people are waking up to the realization that this is not the way. Uh and you know I I am also very inspired by Gen Z. >> I think Gen Z is the kindest generation that uh that I've had the good fortune of you know being connected with. And I think that they are carrying a certain hopefulness as well. Uh that has no time for, you know, what we're seeing at the kind of highest levels at the moment. >> Well, they just have no time for the [ __ ] They can they to them at least to my experience like when I went out with Andrew Callahan on he has he does this he did this tour which was awesome. It was it was Channel 5 Carnival. >> Mhm. in part of the Channel 5 carnival for a 56 year old guy and people that that know me like watched like clips of it and they were like what what were you doing? Well, part of the carnival was that he has a you know it's an audience of about 2,000 people in these stadiums and he invited me to go out with him on the last three of them. It was one of the mo it was one of the best things that I've ever done for myself. It's mainly, you know, like I say, draft age 18 to like 35 year old and um all the people that people sitting behind microphones in, you know, wherever call like, you know, the lazy in their basement, terminally online, you know, out of touch, Gen Z, D, what, whatever. >> And uh and what I found was a incredible community. I found people that were in that didn't have any that it wasn't about partisanship. It wasn't about, you know, Republicans or Democrats, but they cared. They cared deeply, but more than anything, they cared deeply for each other. And the evidence of that was this. They did a talent show. And these people would come up and do these silly tricks, but people that you would look at, you would that you knew were that in any other setting were kind of scared of their shadow. At least you that's what you would have thought about them. >> And they do these silly, funny, sometimes serious things. And the whole energy of the of that community was love. like no matter what it is or how silly it was, you got cheered and high-fived and everybody and it was it was one of the coolest eye opening things that I've ever you know um I went with these guys that that you know Dead City Punk band there like legendary punk band they used they did all those I mean they're they're true anarchist each one of them is a like >> I love them they're my buddies you know why because they're all in recovery and They talk about it openly and you know now do they you know do they literally like uh you know I mean they are true anarchists like I say dead city for life like these guys but they're part of this community they're part and and they're and they're incredibly well read and they understand what's going on and it's the opposite reaction of the the people that listen to Nick Fentes is that instead of disconnecting instead thinking everything's a joke. They know that it's not. They understand all the jokes, but they know that they have a voice. And um I don't know if you feel like this is all the things I learned in recovery like you know what what we haven't dealt with yet was the trauma of co I mean over a million people died the people that like the like and we act as if this entire generation that didn't get to go to their graduations or weddings or or you know their or grandmother dying or you know but particularly the ones that missed like the three years of you know interactction ction with your friends when you know when the most important time in your life to have that. >> Yeah. An entire generation deprived of experiences we take for granted and we dismiss >> the impact of that period of time on literally millions of young people. >> And then you know what we did to them? We allowed for these tech oligarchs and their social media platforms to literally prey on them to make them at best unhealthy, at worst dead. It's sick. >> Mhm. [clears throat] It's sick. And so I don't even remember the question. >> I don't either. But but I think to your point, >> you were talking about um this kind of celebration of cruelty. >> Yeah. I think that's working in lock step with this >> celebration of these tech oligarchs. Like these guys are like rock stars, you know, and they go on >> friendly platforms and spin their yarns and everybody kind of like, you know, >> bows at the altar of these people as if they're some kind of demigods. I mean, they are like, you know, this is our pantheon in our secular world right now. >> And you know, like these people don't have our best interest at heart. like, you know, they're all about just accumulating power and wealth >> and we're meanwhile like worshiping them for that >> as we see this moral decay around us. Like it is the Odyssey. Like did you see the Odyssey? Like >> I had Ryan Holiday on and we were talking about the fact that like this is this is like >> a movie about the 12 steps. Like he is going through the ringer and you know he has to get to this point of surrender to make it home. you know, he's I mean, there's it's just like the parallels are like all over the place, but obviously also a parable of like what's happening right now in >> in in modern society where we don't have a unifying like anchor to bring us together. What we celebrate is self-interest. And you know, when cruelty is something that, you know, we're seeing [snorts] at the top of the pyramid, it's giving everyone else this permission or this encouragement to act accordingly. And you know, Elon Musk said it himself like, you know, empathy is weakness. We need to purge our society of empathy. And like this is just anathema to recovery. Empathy is like what is going to heal us. And when I see you go on all these podcasts and sit with all these like controversial people and all of that, like you are practicing empathy sometimes with people who are deeply unempathetic simply for the purpose of modeling it because all of the callousness and the cruelty is really a function of fear. Like you said it earlier like all of the crave and bad behavior is about fear and you know like you can say well I'm mad at this whatever the reason is you just keep peeling the layers of the onion and ultimately it always comes down to fear like that is that is the emotion that animates all of this at the same time. So these are people who are masquerading as you know alpha strong men >> but they are the most like fearful people >> broken >> in society. Yeah. They're they're they're broken and they're inflicting their unhealed trauma on the rest of us and costumeuming it as as you know masculinity or something like that. and each one of them, you know, and I don't know any of them personally, but I watch um I I've had little experience with um with Elon and and because he really really attacked me during the time because of Twitter and that that gave a whole new life and energy to the whole Hunter Biden question of suppression of you know blah blah blah >> and um [sighs and gasps] and I was really angry and what the [ __ ] And um he's a really broken person. He's had he has had 100% incredible amount of trauma in his life. And I don't say this to be revealing of anything that's not already out there. His father is a um a really really awful human being. And and people can go look for themselves, but I think it very unlikely that his father did not treat him like the way that he treated every other child in his life. his father and you can see it, you know, all of these, you know, that's why I love Ryan Holidayiday is that um, you know, I I I have his book, The Daily Stoic, and I use it and um and I'm a a huge believer in and in and uh the lessons that we can learn, not from only from Aurelius, but from from all of those myths and, you know, the hero's journey and Um, and in those in those incredible pieces of wisdom that exist out there, whether it's Aldis Huxley or whether it's Young or whether it's um, you know, the Bhagat Gita, you you know what's always the same is those characters. They're evil. They're they're the the the archetype that of the broken person, the sociopath, the psycho, what whatever label that you want to put on them, the malignant narcissist, the um each one of the the carrier, the agamemnons [snorts] >> and and and they repeat themselves. And that's why I say nothing is new under the sun. We are all on our uh on a personal level on our own heroes journey but we we are collectively uh you know now we may live in what I think it at a moment of which is an inflection point um and we may be living through the most significant step in our evolution because of AI and I know that you've had some people on here that know way more about it than >> [gasps] [sighs] >> But I think that at a moment in time in which compassion, understanding, and empathy will be the central question of whether we make it through or not. Is that like maybe I'm just a drop in the bucket, but [laughter] but you know what what what other choice do we have? >> Yeah, >> I don't know. But like they are uh did you ever see uh um what's his name? Sam Alman he given an interview about I think it was two or three years ago and he said what he was asked what piece of fiction do you um uh you know what in fiction uh science fiction most represents what you think the world could look like um with the uh introduction of AGI and super intelligence. [snorts] And he said without hesitation, he said, "Pantheon." Have you seen Pantheon? >> I haven't. >> It's cartoon, but it's but it's the voices are like William Herd. They're like serious actors. And it's a series that's on I think it's still on Netflix. >> Go watch it. >> The theme being >> The theme being that we're all screwed. [laughter] >> I thought you were going to say like Terminator. >> No. No. But this is worse. This is worse. And yet we barrel forward. >> This is this is the tragedy of the the human species. Like we are nothing if not builders who are insistent on just continuing to move forward and innovate irrespective of the downstream consequences. Like we'll deal with that when it happens. And history you know is pretty clear that like there's always unforeseen consequences. And the fact that the people that are innovating, doing the innovating, already have that insight and it has no impact on on, you know, how they're on the pace of this advancement is deeply disconcerting. You know, that's why I always go back to again, I don't know, it's apocryphal and or she really actually said it, but the Mother Teresa's line and if you want to change the world, go home and love your family is um and I think that your family doesn't have to just mean your blood relatives, but that that family that is the community that you're a part of. And I get to I get to lay claim to a family that is uh 50 million uh wide and strong as do you of people that I know that we have experienced that we we share one thing the experience in pain of addiction and the and the trauma in and of it of itself and it's to varying different degrees but I know there's a a half a dozen rooms within stones throw of me right here where I can if I need to go sit >> and and um and be witness to to their pain and um and not feel alone. And there's an amazing amazing selfish thing about that. Again, like the single thing the what one of wisdom which I've learned from you. I literally I mean I've learned from listening to you like I'm sitting here talking as if I know anything and the fact of the matter is is that you've done more in service to this than anyone else out there talking about it. Um, and I've learned more from you than I think that I could ever impart if I you have another 50 years. And that is that we are not alone. And that um, uh, that all of the things that I just said are things that, you know, you've spent, you know, an entire career trying to, you know, educate people about. >> At the same time, like everything that I've shared is not these are not my original thoughts either. These are all things that I've learned through experience and and you know that I'm just paring. >> The cool part of this about it is if you if if you aren't familiar with addiction to everybody outside, you sound really [ __ ] smart, [laughter] >> which is really my this is my secret agenda. Yeah. Meanwhile, you learned it from a toothless guy that was sitting in the corner of a meeting who, you know, is the oldtime that's been there 16 years. And, you know, he doesn't have a job and hadn't taken a shower in two weeks. >> And he is like, you go, "Oh my, >> this is the wisest person ever met in my life." It >> cuz these prophets walk among us. >> Yeah. >> I want to talk about the trauma piece a little bit. Uh you mentioned Gabbor Mate earlier. It must have been it was probably like eight or nine years ago. >> Yeah. >> Uh when I read In the Realm of of the Hungry Ghosts and uh I was like I got to meet this guy and I flew to Vancouver to do a podcast with him and and he did exactly what I wanted him to do which is flip the table on me and then dissect my >> Yeah. >> story. And it was a real epiphany for me because I grew up, you know, like I had a like there's nothing I could point to in my child like I didn't have a car accident where people, you know, like there were my parents didn't abuse like they were always there. There's no reason for me to think like I have anything to complain about. I had my insecurities and my feeling like I didn't belong in my own skin and all that stuff that you hear in the rooms um with addicts and alcoholics. But my alcoholism, be it a genetic disposition, it just is what it is. Like I had never delved beneath the surface of that because that really isn't part of what the program is about. And Gabbor like really pulled the covers for me and I was resistant to what he had to say in that moment, but I couldn't stop thinking about it. And so I've been on this journey of trying to unpack my past and make peace with certain things and reckon with it honestly, but it's nothing like what you've had to contend with. And this is outside of the 12step paradigm, right? So where are you in your reckoning or your healing with the things that happened in your early childhood that have repercussions in terms of your, you know, behavior in adulthood? It's still um it's still work in progress, but I'm working and and earnestly. >> And what does that look like? >> What does that look like for me? For me, it has a lot to do with writing. um is that um I spend a lot of time uh uh because it's a way for me to be in thought without it uh without it being um uh dangerous. >> Mhm. You know, I I find that when I just um uh find myself kind of um you know, engaged in this delusional thinking, meaning like that I understand the future or am beholden to the past, you know, that those kinds of thought like the oh my god, like what about this and what's going to happen then and things like that. when I want to reflect on something, the way that I find I'm able to do it in a healthy way is through writing. >> And I don't I I would love to hear your take on it, but you know, like I have that one traumatic event, but the but beyond that traumatic event, I was surrounded by love. I mean, surrounded by love. I have the best example of a father I can ever wish on anyone. If I am half the father my dad has been to me, my sister, my brother, then I am I I will have been a success in this world. And I really truly mean that is that he's incredible. And what was it? And um and I'm still unpacking it. You know, I I think part of it, and this is even hard, is it the accumulation of of of a of selfish decisions even as a child that created shame in my life. You know, I have this one memory that sticks with me. And I've never actually told anybody this [snorts] >> exclusive. >> And I don't want to overblow it, but I literally think about it all the time. I got a dog and his name was Mo. It was a black lab. All I wanted. It was a puppy. And uh and Mo lived for 16 years. The greatest dog ever. And I was uh 16 when I got Mo. And um and I I don't want to overblow this because it wasn't I remember trying to train Mo, my dog, and getting so angry that I kicked the dog like where she whimpered and and um and hid from me for like a period of time. that has stuck with me, the shame. I don't know why I'm even telling you this right now other than the fact like the things. And so I guess what I'm trying to say is that your traumas don't have to be things that were um inflicted upon you. Traumas sometimes are things that you did yourself. Like who is that? Who is that person that was capable of kicking that dog? Like I think about it all the time. And the way that I think about it is this. Can I really be a good person? >> Am I or am I a bad person? >> The fact that it stays with you and that you think about it frequently basically says you're not pathological because somebody who is would wouldn't reflect on that. Uh, and I think, you know, it's an example of our pain is our pain. It can be a car accident where you're there's traumatic casualties or it can just be, you know, a slight that the person never thought of again and has lived with you for 40 years and influences your behaviors that turn into these looping patterns that, you know, send your life in a negative trajectory. It is what it is. So, it's not about the severity of the pain. It's simply what you experienced. And I think that in your case I think it's and listen I'm not a psychologist like you know like you know please like I'm the furthest thing from a clinician but what I hear is somebody who >> went through you know had a incredibly traumatic ordeal that even the most put together person would struggle with recovering from. And yes you were surrounded with love and you grew up in privilege etc. And so that fuels your dismissal of recognizing this thing really was traumatic even though you were cared for in the aftermath. And it's not just that isolated event. It's also, as I mentioned earlier, like the spectre of growing up with like such a prominent figure, you know, your your father, even if he is and was like the most beautiful and loving person possible, like >> yeah, >> that's that would be a challenge for anyone, especially an anxietyriddled young kid who had a who had a brother who seemed to be kind of the embodiment of of charisma and potential and all these things like the insecurity that that you know I would imagine you were marinating in as a young person. So there's that and then not for nothing like the trauma of having to go through the dismantlement you know that you suffered you know from 2019 to 24 or whenever it was the new cycle where you were just pillaried like nobody ever has been. Like all of these things are are difficult things for a well-grounded person to manage. Uh and the fact that you're alive is remarkable in and of itself. But I think there's real I think there's real healing that is still available to you by going like what we learn in the rooms like you don't avoid your pain, you go directly towards it. And I think there there's more freedom on the other side of excavating whatever is there. >> Yeah. And that's my point is that that a lot of it what I do is is you ask me how I'm I'm if I if I'm engaged in that practice and what I find is is that I'm willing to like explore those things without getting lost in them. And that's why I brought up the example which it may seem like oh you're so full of [ __ ] that's the worst thing that you know but the um because it's not and I'm not saying that that the trauma was to me that that but what I do know is that what still exists in me is uh a voice that says you're not worthy of this love like this moment in time right now. >> Mhm. Is it you? >> You got to earn it. You got to earn it. You got to write like a dope piece on Substack or you got to crush some podcast or you have to, you know, paint something that, you know, everybody is going to like freak out about. Like that's the only way that you can feel love and accept it because love is transactional. >> Yeah. And I think that I'm growing beyond that. But I [clears throat] I know I lived in that space for a long time. I know that I live for instance is that I went to law school and I excelled and I went to Georgetown and then I transferred to Yale and I got out and I was scared to death of public speaking so I knew that I didn't want to go into politics. Um, but I was my brother and I literally were were inseparable and I I knew that he could have that. But the real thing I wanted to be was an artist and I wanted to write and >> that wasn't part of the the the Biden blueprint though. I would imagine >> my dad would have been fine. I really But you know who wasn't okay with that? Me because I didn't think that myself you know and by the way not because of anything other than this. is because I was scared to death because you know what it takes to be an artist takes courage and I lacked it. So there's the fear but it's that disavowel of self, you know, [snorts] that creates the dissonance like you're living out of integrity with who you are. >> Yeah. >> With unhealed trauma like shocker, you know. >> Yeah. >> Here comes the crackpipe. >> Yeah. And it was answered everything. That's the other thing I say to people is why? because at first it was the answer to everything and then you chased that answer into your own prison cell. >> And um but man, okay, back to fun things. All right. >> The fun things is is is that you know despite all of that is um like the other part about living in this space that I'm living in right now. It like it is it can it can be fun. It's like part part of it is >> is that and I mean this sincerely I get to meet Rich like I get to come and talk to you. You know, I'm I'm a super fan and the idea that uh that I get to sit here and have a uh discussion with somebody that I know cares as deeply as I do about some of these things. Um and that has been uh uh that has given me the opportunity to learn from the people that he has on and elicites from them things that have, you know, uh really made a difference in my life is like this. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's cool. I mean this this idea that you know sobriety is nothing but martyrdom and suffering and pain like no it's not that at all it's actually liberation and there's a lot of joy and >> tons of laughter and you know suddenly life >> uh you get to experience life in the full spectrum you know in technol right for better or for worse >> and you know I'm I'm sitting here going can't believe this [ __ ] guy Hunter Biden is sitting he actually came to the studio and he's doing this like How is this my life? How did this happen? >> Yeah, >> I can't make sense of it other than to say like, well, it's all because of recovery. You know, it all stems back to that. Like, it is not logical or rational. It wasn't my plan to like be doing this. >> It's about every single day trying to bring my, you know, my my thoughts and my words into greater integrity with my actions and incrementally over like, you know, [ __ ] 30 years. It's like this is, you know, it's slow variety. >> Uh somehow I've arrived at this point where, you know, I have like the best job in the world and I get to like invite cool people that I'm just curious about and hold them hostage and force them to talk to me and then share that with the world and and and this is nourishing and beneficial to other people. Like it's a commercial enterprise, but fundamentally that's even cooler. It's a it's a it's [laughter] a Yeah. I mean, but it's like it's a it's in the spirit of service. Yeah. >> And I also get to like support my family. Like it's like a magic trick. >> So I give you >> it's in the it's what I'm getting at is Sorry to cut you off is >> because it doesn't make sense. It allows me to appreciate the mystical and the spiritual in a way that, you know, has always been challenging for me because there is no explanation. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm curious around like your what does your relationship with spirituality look like? >> Well, I give you the that the that [gasps] you know this idea of serendipity and the idea of the um uh of when you're kind of like living in the flow. Um that's my idea of spirituality. You know, I was raised a Catholic and um I have deep reverence for the faith of my father and my grandmother and the way in which they um uh practice their faith. Um it the I I stopped going to to to mass a long time ago and um and uh but because for me the my the my spirituality is rooted in you know the perennial philosophy. It's rooted in the idea that we are all um not just um figuratively but literally connected. We are all one thing. All of the source of consciousness is a is is derived from uh a a a single source of which we will never be able to articulate or know. And you know I I find it kind of funny that this kind of whole idea of that we're all living in the matrix and you know this kind of uh I think from these technologists that say that this is all a simulation. I mean, you go back and read the opponents um and it's literally this it's the >> it's more extreme than a simulation complicated. >> They're acting as if they're that they're um their analysis is some how novel. It's just using the language of the moment uh in which I believe in the idea that our actions have consequences but they begin with how we treat each other and and but more importantly how we treat ourselves >> and everything emanates from that >> and um and so that's my spirituality. I give you the serendipity. So I uh uh I uh am working with a organization called Peak Path Health or Rehab Center and but I'm working with them to here in LA and um and to set up a afterare foundation um and a a foundation centered on the continuity of care for people that can't afford it. >> Mhm. Because I don't know about you, one of the re the realizations that I had is the enormity of the privilege that I had is that while I had to go to nine 10 rehabs um and go through I don't know how many outpatient programs and and sit through you know uh how much therapy and and I did Iaska and I did I gain and I did five DMT and I did all of these things because I had access and the capacity and capability because I could Well, 99% of the people that suffer from what we suffer from don't. And even if they're uh the capacity insurance or they go on scholarship like we offer, they they afterwards go back into the same exact environment. And there's like um you know, it's not called recidivism, but it's a a you know, 85% the industry says like 75% you know, relapse rate. I think it's more like 90%. >> And part of the reason is because the giant chasm, the gap in in in recovery, I think, is in the continuity [clears throat] of care afterwards. >> You can go to a treatment center for 28 days, but it spits you out the other side. And if you don't have, you know, some kind of support system and structure and accountability, like you're spinning in the wind. >> Yeah. And so, you know what? Now I get to try to build that. >> Yeah. >> And you know I think and it's like the most amazing thing in the world and and it's something I that I feel like I know a lot about. It's something like I know that I don't know everything about and I get to go and find people to help me do it. And you kept these connections and your thing and again it's like you know these selfish acts of service that are you know you realize that they they just propagate more and more opportunity and more and more um kind of wonderment of like what's next and you know >> as long as you stay disconnected from uh outcomes >> which is and expectations. >> Exactly. What is you know like what you said my spirituality like It's you know it's Krishna to Arjuna and the Bhagat Gita that's what it is all all about you know it doesn't have anything to do with anything other than you detaching from the outcome do your service your service to yourself your service to your family your service to your community do your service well and detach from the outcome and that is what it's about >> maybe we can land this plane with uh some thoughts for the person who is out there who's still suffering Yeah. Again, I I know my own experience is that the thing that made it feel impossible to me was the idea that I was completely alone in my suffering. And not only are you not alone, but you are surrounded by people that if you just have a moment of clarity and and pick up a phone, reach out for help, call someone, uh, is that that the miracle of what I'm experienced at least for today is available to you. And it really is. Secrets uh grow in the darkness. Yeah. >> Shame can't survive the light. >> And that's the other thing I made it through. People >> Yeah. And if this [ __ ] guy, I promise you, >> I always say to people is this is that here's one of the things that I'm grateful for. I benefit more than anybody that I know in my lifetime at least from very low expectations. [laughter] If I show up to your dinner party and I'm not whacked out on crack and you know I mean like oh my god he was amazing. >> He actually like you know Yeah. He he could like say words. >> Yeah. [laughter] Exactly. Exactly. >> Um Hunter this was amazing. Uh what a treat. I appreciate you taking the time >> and uh I really am a champion of of this campaign you are on right now where you are broadening understanding around addiction and modeling a new way of trying to communicate with people that we you know maybe are are challenging our worldviews and I I think that's the way forward u not just politically but as a culture if we you know want to surv survive as a healthy society as a as a you know liberal democracy. Um we have to overcome this acrimony and I think the compassion and the understanding and the just the the ability to sit with somebody and and listen and take them seriously and engage with their ideas uh is is laudable and uh I commend you for that and >> I really really appreciate it means it means it more to me than you can possibly imagine. Thank you. >> Um well let's do this again man. Absolutely. >> I'm in the neighborhood. >> Peace.