Transport Committee - 16 September 2026

Good morning and welcome to the fifth meeting of the transport committee in 2026. We've received apologies from Zen Gani. I welcome Martin D um who's attending as Zen substitute. As this is Martin's first appearance at the transport committee, our first item of business is to invite Martin to declare any relevant interests. Uh, thank you. Uh, I have no relevant interest to declare, but I will try and make my contributions as exciting as I can. [laughter] Thank you, Martin. Right, so the next item on our agenda is an evidence session on Scotland's rail services. And I welcome our guest this morning. Graeme Cook, director of rail delivery at Transport Scotland. Welcome Graeme. Joan Magcguire, managing director of Scot Rail. Hannah Ross, chief executive of Scottish Rail Holdings Limited. And Liam Sumpter, managing director of Network Rail Scotland. So, welcome all. Um, can I ask members and witnesses to try and keep our questions short and our answers short and snappy? Um, of course you need time to answer them in properly, but we'll try and speed things along. Um, so we're going to open with questions from Colette Stevenson. >> Okay. Thanks very much, Convenor, and a very warm welcome um to our panel today. So, I'm going to touch upon um violence against women and girls. And you've obviously are aware that there has been several reports um of assaults occurring on the Caledonian sleeper and and whilst I completely understand that you can't comment on what is subjuditial, I wonder if you could give me um more information on what the numbers are and the nature of the incidents which have been reported um how they were handled um and whether there's any operational or safeguarding in place um as a result of of these incidents. Um I don't know Joanne, do you want to come in first? Thanks. >> So thank you Miss Stevenson and I'm happy to talk about safety. >> Joan, just wait. There we are. That's it. On you go. >> So morning everyone. Um thank you for the question Stevenson. I'm absolutely happy to talk about safety across um our railway. Um Hannah might want to talk about sleeper um in particular. So the safety of our passengers and our staff is of absolute paramount importance to us and it probably not surprise you to hear that the safety of women and girls is particularly personally important to me and since we came into public ownership we have been backed by government to make a significant investment in safety at personal safety across the railway. So we have one of the largest CCTV networks in the UK that cover our stations and we also have on train CCTV specific to Scott Rail. We've also trebled the number of bodywn cameras that we have. So we've gone from 300 to 1,000. So our commitment is that every frontline member of staff has a bodywn camera available to them and there are reports that show that they reduce the number of offenses on the railway. We also have an uninterrupted power supply to all of our help points and we have help points on every platform. Those connect directly to one of our two CCTV centers. So be that Paisley or Den Firmland and you can talk to a human being 24 hours a day, seven days a week if you feel you you are not safe on a platform and you want to connect with someone and on our trains we have that second member of staff. So the driver and a member of train crew to talk to. We also have expanded our travel safe team. So they work permanent back shift and initially we had a team who booked on in Paisley. We now also have a team who book on in Hay Market and they cover the east of the country and we work proactively on that team with BTP. We're very proud of our partnership with the transport police and I know myself and Liam work very closely with them on a weekly basis and our teams work with them on a daily basis and we work with them to focus the work on the travel safe team where we have known hotspots. And the final thing I'll say before handing over to Hannah is we also know that antisocial behavior is linked to ticketless travel. So we have our revenue protection team. We've invested in frontline staff to make sure our gate lines are closed and we're checking tickets. In 2022 we had 8% ticketless travel and we're now just over 2%. So under public ownership we have driven down ticketless travel which is also helping to combat antisocial behavior. But on the specifics around sleeper you Hannah. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. I just want to acknowledge this is a really uh serious and crucial issue and I also want to give you assurance that the board of Calonian Sleeper and the executive team at Caledonian Sleeper take it incredibly seriously and are motivated to respond fully to it. There have been a handful of issues of antisocial behavior and violence against women and girls on the Caledonian sleepers, some of which are reported. Um, in order to respond to that, there's been a real look at the culture um, within the sleeper team both on board and in the HR team that has included um, sexual harassment training, safeguarding training and policy development. Um, there has been uh, a real focus on escalation of grievances and how we respond to those completely and fully. uh a re a refresh of training around what what counts as sexual harassment, for example, to ensure that's fully recognized and what counts as sexual assault. Um and all of the issues which are uncovered or happen on train are now escalated to the board for and and to the sh committee uh the safety, health and environment committee of Caledonian sleeper for focus. So, it's a real area of focus for the team and as I say, the executive team are highly motivated to respond to it. To Joe's point about body warn cameras as well, they are also working with the union to expand the use of body warn cameras on the sleeper. >> And that that's reassuring to know that as well. Um I maybe want to just ask a bit more in terms of is there further I know I know CCTV can be it's not preventative if you know that that the incident's already occurred for but what sort of security arrangements are actually in place on the sleeper um particularly because it's overnight and the other thing I want to ask about is that alcohol now allowed to be drunk back on the trains again and is that have you seen an increase in incidents occurring the causing that? >> So I'll ask Joe to come in on the alcohol question. Um as you'll be aware alcohol has been served on the Calonian sleeper for a number of years and we don't see that as a particular factor. Um, in our incidents, a couple of recent antisocial behavior incidents have involved alcohol, but it's not, I think, a common theme. In terms of CCTV, there is CCTV on the sleeper. Uh, but it's in the public areas. It doesn't it doesn't include the whole train. I just ask I take it within the sleeper you is the the alcohol times are as what you would be if you were to go and buy alcohol in the in the shops. >> Uh I'll need to double check that. I don't think there is a cut off for alcohol service on the sleeper. Uh but can I just double check that to be sure of myself and and respond to the committee. >> Okay. I really appreciate that. Thanks very much. Um I don't know if anybody else wants to come in on that. Joan, regarding alcohol, >> of course. So specific to Scot Rail services, we categorically have not seen an increase in antisocial behavior since the alcohol ban was lifted. Um and alcohol can be consumed on Scotil trains between 10:00 a.m. and 2100. So not exactly the same, but not dissimilar to um alcohol licensing in retail premises. And but we have not seen a spike in antisocial behavior since we lifted the ban. And we are not seeing a link between the consumption of alcohol on our trains and antisocial behavior. >> Okay. Does anyone else want to come in? Liam, thanks. >> Yeah. Um good morning, committee. Um I I share I share the comments um from from my colleagues um about um how um unacceptable this sort of behavior is. Has no place in society and it absolutely has no place on our railway. Um I wanted to focus on Glasgow Central Station because that's probably um the location where um we have uh the largest number of reports of these sorts of incidents. Um and to try and give the committee some confidence in how we're reacting to that. Um we are investing very heavily in improving the CCTV coverage at um at Glasgow Central. So, we've got a3.7 million pound program to renew all of the CCTV. And as part of renewing it, it includes increasing the coverage to places that um aren't currently covered or haven't previously been covered by CCTV to improve the coverage. We've got a dedicated British Transport Police team there. We have regular meetings with them to try and work with Scott Rail, with BTP to try and sort of eliminate the um the scourge of this sort of activity in that station. Um, and we're also going through a process of training and retraining everybody who works at that station so they're able to try and identify um signs of where this sort of activity might be uh might be starting to um to percolate um but also to intervene and um and to to de deescalate um where possible as well. So Glasgow Central is a is a location where we we see more of these these issues. Um and we are we're absolutely responding to that to try and stamp it out. >> Thank you. Um Graeme, do you want to come in? Thanks. >> Thank you. Thank you. And good morning everybody. I wanted to add uh a reminder um to the committee that the Scottish government along with all of the the partners in the railway um set up a rail enforcement powers working group to address the rise in antisocial behavior on the railway which of course is part of a wider societal uh escalation of antisocial behavior. It reported in February this year. It made 11 recommendations, all of which were endorsed and supported by the previous cabinet secretary for transport and officials are working with the railway um to implement those 11 recommendations and interest of time, I won't go through all 11. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you. One one last question is I'm just trying to look for the the the number that you can call. Is that widely advertised in the trains as well so that women and girls that they they can see it at a glance? Should it be more readily be advertised? So it's we can always look at doing more and it's advertised on our trains physically and we also include it in our on train and at station announcements. So we can we remind people to contact BTP for women and girls. We also launched um ourselves and network rail jointly launched a campaign with crimes stoppers as well specific um to supporting women who are suff um experiencing fog. >> Okay. Thank you. That Thanks. >> Thanks Colette. Um Irish Dwayne. >> Thank you so much and thank you members for joining us today. [clears throat] I just wanted to jump off a comment that you had said Hannah. You noted that there'd been a um a handful of issues on the Calonian speaker. I was just hoping uh between you and Joanne, are we seeing a decrease in this um violence against women and girls on the Calonian sleeper and and the trains? Are we seeing an increase? And um how have you responded to to that? >> So, we have seen an increase in reports being made to us. I would not like to speculate about whether that is a genuine increase or if it's an increase in reporting and understanding. and Joan if you >> so across our network we have seen an increase in reports um of assaults however that would be proportionate in some cases to the numbers traveling and we would we also encourage reporting both from our staff in fact we do more reporting with our staff than most other train operators um and our h customers so for example we'll look at um verbal assaults we'll look at physical assaults we look at them very closely we work with our trade unions on them. But we have seen an increase. Unfortunately, there is a societal challenge as the committee will be aware of with antisocial behavior >> and the railway experiences that. >> No, of course. And like you said, Hannah, that may be an increase in in confidence in reporting, not potentially um incidents. But just slightly jumping off something that Colette said, is there um any internal discussions about how to best um I guess cascade the information of of how you are supporting individuals? I know you you have stuff on stations, but I was very impressed to hear um that you've tripled the amount of body warn cameras that the amount of CCTV that is available. And when I speak to my constituents, especially um younger women, teenagers, and and often mothers, there's a lot of fear of allowing people to be on trains or on stations later at night. So potentially there's there's also a campaign in there about making sure people have confidence not only where to report, but um that there is also support in that area. >> So one of the areas we're working on is our um with and through our partners, the transport police. So something that we're very proud of at Scott Rail um around two years ago. So all of our frontline staff come for at least one annual safety briefing. Um and we made the commitment that senior managers attend that briefing so that we can take feedback directly from the front line on what is happening because our staff know much better than me and my team what's happening dayto-day. We actually had a dedicated member of transport police, an officer who joined those briefings for a year and we're going to we've restarted that as of this year and we're having a dedicated member of transport police. So they are working with our frontline teams to break down barriers to explain what happens when you send a text message. We've looked at the best information you can give so our staff know. Give the carriage number, give the service you're on, give the next train you're stopping at, and that that is the best chance of BTP being able to meet the train or being able to meet it a couple of stations along. So, we are working to educate our staff on the best ways to work with the transport police because they can't be everywhere and on every train. Um, and then we'll look at what we can do as well with the public. As I say, we do announce um through our public information systems and it is advertised on train. We obviously need to do more. >> That's very helpful. And one final question on on this topic. Just of course um full confidence in that the intention of keeping every station great, but some of the less service stations sometimes we hear of problems potentially with lighting. Is that something that is often considered and and do you know how quickly incidents such as that are responded to? So we have lots of ways in check of checking that our stations are operating properly including our unstaffed stations. So, as I mentioned, um, we do have the help points and they're unstaffed stations as well as staff stations. And we do, we know we need to encourage more people. If you feel unsafe, press the help point and you will be connected to a I use the example, they'd be able to say to me, oh, we can see you've got a Navy jacket on. >> Don't worry. Do you want to keep talking to us till your train arrives or do you want us just to keep an eye on you till the train arrives? So, they can do either. In terms of checking, um, our managers will check every station on at least a 30-day cycle. So, that includes our unstaffed stations. Um, and we also have an audit regime, um, by Transport Scotland where they will go around and check, they provide feedback direct to us and every and we review that feedback and property services teams take action. Um in terms of further enhancing safety and we have around 70 senior managers in the business and we carry out one safety audit period. So every four weeks everyone including myself goes out and engages with the front line on safety and we record our actions through that. They're auditable and they're followed up. >> No problem. >> Thank you [clears throat] Graeme Simpson. >> Yeah, thanks. Thanks Kavina. Just a couple of quick questions on CCTV. Um, I think it'll be Joanne will answer the first and maybe Liam might be able to help with the second. So Joanne, um, my question to you is the CCTV that's on Scot Rail Trains, is that monitored live? And Liam, >> [clears throat] >> um, of course Scott Rail is not the only operator that has trains in Scotland. Um, I do know that certainly up until a few years ago, Cross Country didn't have CCTV on all its trains. Um, do you know if that's been rectified? Do you do you know of any other operators that don't have it? So, maybe Joanne first. >> So, h thank you Mr. Simpson and I know you've been to visit our CCTV center in Paisley. So, you've seen firsthand the investment um that we've made with backing of the government. So at um stations, our CCTV absolutely is live. Currently, it is not live on our trains. We can access that footage. And part of that is why we're also encouraging staff to wear bodywn cameras because we know we get better footage from the bodywn cameras. Also, it's in closer proximity to the action. >> Okay, Liam. So, um, first of all, in terms of CCTV in stations, if I touch on that first, Glasgow Central and Edinburgh Waverly, we have a control room at both of those locations that has live CCTV in it. We have somebody in there watching that as part of their overall duties in the station um, at all times when it's open. Um, I I can't comment on on which other operators have CCTV on every single service or not. I think that'd be a question for those operators. >> Does anyone know? >> Graeme, >> thank you. I I don't know the answer. Um but the the all of the crosscountry operators other than the sleeper are of course overseen by the department for transport um UK government. Um so that's it's a matter for for DFT to decide whether that's an appropriate um policy to roll out and I'm afraid I don't know if that is the case on all of the operators. >> Okay. Yeah, that's fine. And thank you very much for answering those questions. Those were substantial answers and we appreciate your time on that. And I want to turn to the app. So um it was reported that there was 3,000 complaints in the first 10 days of the roll out. What's the number of complaints at now Joanne? >> Thank you convenor. So the number of comp Thankfully the number of complaints hasn't increased significantly since what you've seen reported on the 3000. >> I want to start by saying that we know >> you have a number >> I don't have the exact number as of this morning but we can certainly get back to your convenor. the launch of the app hasn't been good enough and for that I apologize apologize to the committee and I apologize that um all of our passengers that we've spent four years building up the confidence of and investing in improving our services and we know that day one wasn't good enough. We had significant challenges with loons and there have then been six other days when we've had challenges and the service we've provided hasn't been good enough. Um, for the long term, this app is an investment that will make improvements for our passengers. Unfortunately, you've not seen them yet because what we're focused on is stabilizing the day-to-day delivery and operation of the app. >> Okay. Can I just go back to the numbers though? >> Yes. I would have hoped you would be on top of exactly how many complaints and the trends of what's happening because I am a frequent user of your services and almost every day that I travel I see people having problems. I myself had a problem last week going into Glasgow Queen Street returning to Edinburgh where my return ticket wouldn't show on the system. Now your staff were very good. They let me through. Um but I see other people um encountering similar problems. So I'm disappointed you don't have the numbers. Do you have have you got anything in your papers there that can tell us? >> So I I don't have the exact number as of of this morning in terms of where the complaints have got to. I can tell you that this morning we have had a handful of customers come to us who couldn't access their flexi passes. Um, and as frustrating as that is for the customer experience, those issues were resolved by signing in and signing out and signing back in to the app. We also had a challenge um on Monday morning with payments which lasted around half an hour. We had a hundred contacts to social media on Monday morning um that we worked with customers to resolve. But in terms of specific complaints because they generally will come into customer relations, I wouldn't want to mislead the committee. So I'd rather give you an exact number which we can get up to this morning for you and we can get that to you later today. >> Okay, that's fine. Okay, so £83 million over 9 years. >> Yes. >> Um but only one bidder in hindsight. Is that an error? >> So there were several biders. There was only one compliant bidder. >> So we work within the frameworks of Scottish government procurement. um and Silver Rail where the compliant bidder. Um hindsight is a great thing and we are carrying out a lessons learned exercise to really examine what could have been done better, what we should have done differently. Um and we will be sharing that with our boards and with Transport Scotland. Um but there was only one compliant bidder when we ran the tender exercise. Did were you would or should have you been able to predict that you would only have one compliant bidder because of the way that you shaped the contract? >> We had about five people there either five or six tendered but only one compliant. >> Um >> was that predictable? >> No, I don't believe it was. >> I don't believe it was. We we put a lot of require we built a lot of requirements in because we want an app that will enable future developments and we will be compliing which is an ambition of the government and so there were a lot of requirements built into the procurement spec. Um however we did not foresee that we'd only have one compliant bidder. Why? Surely with the advisor that you have on site, you would know who was out there that would be compliant. Was that not something you foresaw? >> Um, it was not something that we in hindsight. Um, so we chose the decision to go or we made the decision to go to the market because our contract with Train Line was coming to an end. Um, and the contract we had with Train Line prohibited us from making further developments that we wanted to. Um, as I say, hindsight's a great thing. I'm sure there are things will have been done differently. Um, I didn't see any reason. I've read the 494 page contract that we have, and there was nothing in there that told me that we wouldn't find another compliant bidder. Unfortunately, like many aspects of the railway, our supply chain is quite constrained. Um, but no, we didn't we didn't see this arising. It is as frustrating for us as you >> are you not alarmed by that that with all the myriad of people that you've got advising you the support from Hannah and her team you know the the experts that exist within the system that you didn't foresee that it was just going to be one compliant bidder. >> Can I Well, if I could go back in time um >> No, but it's not going back in time though, is it? Yeah, >> cuz actually, you know, this is a publicly owned railway. We expect it to perform better, but one of the biggest contracts that we're going to award for the next few years. We just get one compliant bidder and we have these myriad of problems. Surely that was foreseeable. >> So, up until the week before launch, um we were assured that everything was going to plan with regards to launch of the app. We let our passengers down. Um it was notified us at very short notice that Silver Rail had made a change to the system. Um on the compliant bidder h it was not foreseen by us. But I don't know if you wanted to comment Hannah. >> I was just going to provide some assurance that Joe and her team have identified that one of the areas to be looked at as part of the lessons learned is the procurement process. um and that bid and I think that you know it will come through the lessons learned when we undertake that as to the market the the the market engagement and the understanding of the market's appetite for risk. >> Silver Rail had a problem when they rolled out an app for Southwest Railways and GWR as well. So they've got a track record of having problems of rolling out new systems. Um was that did that come up in your risk register at all? Was that identified as a problem? >> So we were assured that um Silver Rail had learned from that and the improvements had been made to their app. Um as I said unfortunately there was user testing ongoing since May and there was very low late notification that changes had been made to the app and which caused our customers significant frustration which we are very sorry for since the launch of the app. Does does that not knock your confidence in silver rail? I mean, how how do you judge about what they're going to do next? Because if the problems are continuing, and this is what, six weeks on now. >> Um, have you really got confidence in Silver Rail that they're going to be able to deliver this 9-year contract? >> There are um it it is a 9-year contract. However, um there are clauses within the contract where we could terminate. Were >> you thinking of breaking? >> That's not the point. we're at just now. Okay. >> We are committed to making this right and we are working very hard with Silver Rail, including my team still meeting them multiple times a day until I have the assurance and the public have the assurance that they can pick up the app without thinking about it and they know that they can either buy a ticket, search for a journey or their ticket will be there. And as soon as we have that stability, we will be making that publicly known and we will then be working with Silver Rail to make enhancements to the app and improvements to the customer journey. It is not good enough right now. >> So you did um internal testing, but there was no soft launch. Why was that? So part of our contract with the outgoing provider meant that [clears throat and snorts] there wasn't an opportunity to do a soft launch because Train Line had exclusive rights on retailing our tickets. >> So there was no way is it there's that train line insisting that there had to be >> contractually I'm I'm informed that contractually we could not make the change in a phased basis that will be picked up as part of the lessons learned review. I find that remarkable that there was the companies of the experience of train line and silver rail could not reach an agreement between the two of them to have a more a softer transition between the two. I mean this is well known isn't it across IT system rollouts that you know you have teething problems and you need to just soft launch you need to test the system publicly but you're saying they couldn't reach an agreement between the two of them >> to be fair to the two companies. So Train Line were the outgoing provider so I would be fair to them and say they were possibly less motivated um to work with Silver Rail. Silver Rail tell us that they couldn't separate retailing and information to run a soft launch, but that is going to be forensically examined as part of the lessons learned. >> And did you not call a halt at that point when you realized there couldn't be a soft transition? >> I mean, it was a steep cliff you were jumping off. >> Everything was going well up until less than 24 hours before the launch. >> Okay. Okay. And so there was no other opportunities to do like a pre-download window. that wasn't possible. >> So, there had been internal user testing, not unfortunately, and we hadn't been able to use our test um on our quarter of a million passengers who choose to travel with us every day who were very thankful for and thankful for their patience during this time. Um, as I say, we will be forensically examining through the lessons learned, what could have been done differently. The information I'm sharing with the committee is the information I have at this time. Okay, Lloyd Melville, >> thank you for that. Um, reputationally, uh, it doesn't do a lot for, uh, our publicly owned railway and indeed the first minister himself has said that the the launch of the app has damaged the [snorts] reputation of Scot Rail, um, as an operator. What are your reflections on that? And how are you looking to build back up Scott Rail's reputation going forward? >> Yeah. Um, thank you for that and I I'll offer my reflections and then Hannah might want to say a few words as the chair of our board. As I mentioned when we talked about safety, we know we've had significant investment from the Scottish government and since coming into public ownership and we're really proud of a lot of the improvements that we've made under public ownership. Um, you know, we've invested in our driver numbers. We've reduced the number of services we're um cancelling. We've driven up our revenue. Um, our passengers are currently benefiting from peak fairs being gone for good, which was a significant investment by government. And we're also currently investing in new fleet. Um, there was a lot that was going very very well for us up until unfortunately we didn't deliver a successful launch day in the 30th of July. We are acutely aware of that and we're acutely um aware and that it wasn't good enough. Not to undermine that it wasn't good enough in any way. That same week was the busiest week we've had since coming into public ownership and we continue since the 30th of July. We are continuing to exceed on our revenue targets and we're continuing to deliver on journey growth which we have done for the whole year. But we know that we need to rebuild our passenger confidence, but we also need to rebuild our stakeholder confidence. So what we are doing is in addition to continuing the good work that we do day in day out to improve our service reliability and to work on our future improvements, we are absolutely committed to putting this right and ensuring that the app is delivering sta a stable service. and we will then be looking to publicly announce improvements to the app, but only when it's the right time to do so. But we know, as I said, we're very fortunate that um our passenger numbers and our revenue continues to be a success story, but we know that that's not good enough and we're not complacent about it. >> Come back in though because uncertainty about being able to to to use the app might actually cause some people to switch away from using the train if they're not sure they're going to be able to use that functionality. Is that something that you've modeled in? >> So, in the first couple of weeks, what we actually seen was a slight increase in people going back to buying from a booking office um or buying from a ticket vending machine or indeed from our staff on train, which again we're very fortunate that we have staffed um ticket offices and we have a second member of staff on every train. So, we've seen the first couple of weeks we did see a small spike in that. that has started to decrease again as people are going back to using our app and we have um around 800,000 users um of the app signed up. >> Just back on reputation, Hannah, did you want to come in on the reputation aspect? >> You know, I absolutely associate myself with Joe's apology for the um difficulties that people have faced in using the app since it was launched. the um from a board perspective, we see firsthand the very hard work that Joe and her team and all the staff at Scott Rail put into the reputation of the organization in terms of delivering high performing service um and a safe service. Uh and so it has been really disappointing to see the hit on the reputation, but I agree with Joe that the focus now needs to be on stabilizing the app and then growing the benefits of the app. Um that's absolutely key to um to getting back the confidence of the consumer in using the app so that they can understand what it is that the new functionality can bring. >> Thank you. >> Joanne, you said that Silver Rail made changes to the system 24 hours before launch. What were the changes? So it it was background changes to the um the operating system that we weren't aware of as I say till very shortly before the launch. Since the launch um there have been um updates to the app to rectify the changes that they made. >> Okay. Um I read that there was an FOI request and it showed that Scott Rail exchanged around 600 emails with Silver Rail over a two-day period. That is a lot of emails. What was the tone of those emails? >> Um, so I wasn't copied on most of these emails. I have certainly myself personally been speaking them to their chief commercial officer um to ensure that I'm kept up to date and also to express my concern and dissatisfaction at the service they have provided to us. Um whilst we've been keen to express that what they've done is not good enough, we have also had to work with a lot of their frontline staff and ensure that they remain motivated to fixing. Um and that included Scott um Silver Rail actually basing themselves in our offices at our request to be available to work with us in the early days as we rectify the challenges of the app. >> So they're in where? Glasgow. >> Yes. We we sorry we we asked them to work with us in our offices in Glasgow. >> And are they still there? >> Um some of them um are still in Glasgow. We're having daily calls with them um that start h at 7:00 a.m. every morning as well. We're having repeated calls throughout the day to have that assurity um that the service is running steadily. >> I'm I'm still not clear as to why you needed a new app. Um maybe I haven't explained it properly but yeah to me if you have a new app it needs to do something different to the old app. The old app seemed to work um in terms of you know if you just want to buy tickets that's what it did um and this doesn't even do that properly. >> So that's absolutely a fair challenge. And so we were coming to the end of our contract with Train Line. Train Line is a legacy contract that we inherited from the Abelio franchise. um and we were due to retender. We are absolutely committed to getting to a stage where you um and all of our customers um Mr. Zimpson will have the confidence that you will pick the app up in the morning and be able to either search their journey or buy a ticket. In the longer term, Train Line improves Train Line couldn't deliver the functionality. So, a couple of um very simple examples um that will be transformative for some of our users. So on our new app um you can actually book passenger assistance at the time when you buy a ticket. Previously you would have needed to have gone to a separate app or made a phone call. So for any of our passengers who require assistance they will be able to assure themsel of that at the point of buying a ticket. Um and also um we're about to come into storm season which is one of those times when we need to be able to communicate with our customers more often than ever. So the new app will enable push notifications. So those notifications like you'll see you might get from the BBC or other providers will flash up on your screen if there's disruption to our services. Those are just a couple of examples. There are lots of other functionality to Silver Rail that once we have a dependable platform day in day out we will start to launch um further functionality and you will see that it is improved versus the previous provider. If I use train line, which I have occasionally, um I will get those notifications telling me if trains delayed. Did it Did did your old app not do that? >> No, the previous app did not. >> It didn't do that. Even though it was run by train, it didn't. >> Okay. So, just one more thing. you you mentioned that the app once we got the basics right then you may want to add to it um and it could be used for multimodal ticketing could be were you asked by government to build that in >> so my team are part of the national smart ticketing advisory board um which was set up by transport Scotland >> there's a bit of a dirty word on this committee I have to say. >> So um as part of the procurement spec we did detail the requirement for the app to be able to to be built in such a way that it can cope with multimodal ticketing. Um so yes obviously it requires further development and when the scheme is developed it may require different bus operators for example. So we would need to work with individuals but the capability is absolutely there. >> Okay. Thank you. >> So, are you saying that Train Line refused to make the changes to the app that they've got available on other parts of their system in [snorts] terms of this functionality? >> So, they were invited to bid um against >> through the through the previous contract. Did they not make those improvements? >> So, due to the contract have been set up by Abelio, we weren't able to make changes within the constraints of the contract we inherited. >> Okay. But in future they hadn't refused to do that. But the way that you had constructed the contract to make it if I call it vertically integrated, you're doing the whole system rather than just the app. Um that was something that they're not experts on and I understand. Um so the way that you constructed the contract effectively excluded train line, did it not? >> The the contract wasn't constructed to exclude anyone. It was to enable Scott Rail to be able to participate in the delivery of government ambitions for example around multimodal ticketing. >> But the way that you did it constructed it to do the whole system including you know the ticket machines and the whole as well as the app and the technology um that was not something that Train Line um um were able to do and they were not prepared to put a joint venture together in order to make that possible. So was that not effectively the way that you constructed it was that not effectively excluding train line effect I know you're not I know you didn't design it >> purposefully to exclude train line but was that not the effect of it >> it's so you're absolutely correct convenor as you would expect that the contract was not just for the app it was for delivering our station retail systems and our on train retail systems and that isn't train line specialtity and they as yeah they chose not to work with someone else which they they've required to do >> and how long are the problems going to last for >> um we are working on a dayto-day basis to ensure that we reach a point of stability. I'm absolutely committed to delivering that as quickly as we possibly can >> by Christmas. >> Um I absolutely give this um committee my commitment that we are working day in day out and um it will be as early as we possibly can. So you're not confident by Christmas? >> Um we will do everything we possibly can. >> Okay. Um why didn't you um join in the efforts of CR British Railway to do their joint system? So we have we would have an integrated system between all the crossber services as well as uh Scott rail. And why was it why was it not deemed appropriate to join in the larger UKwide effort? So um we uh are very much um kept up to date with the work that's going on. In fact, I was at a briefing meeting with um all of the other train operating company managing directors last Thursday afternoon where we were given an update on the development um of retail and ticketing under GBR. Um our contract with train line was expiring this year and our commitment is to delivering multimodal ticketing. Part of our commitment is delivered multimodal ticketing. um as an operator who's owned by Scottish government. >> So were you told by ministers you couldn't join in GBR? >> Absolutely not. >> Okay. You're absolutely confident that if you judged that it would been appropriate to join in the GBR effort in order to meet your objectives, you would have been free to do that. >> So that's not a conversation we've had. Um and I'm sure that we don't rule out in future working with GBR in various ways. Um, however, we certainly haven't had any type of instruction like that. >> Okay, just to recap, this has been utterly chaotic. I see it on a daily basis. People complaining to your staff and your staff have been very good as I say, but it is a repeated problem that is, I would say, knocking your the confidence in the company significantly and you'll have to go some to recover that reputation. Um, and I hope that the app is worth it. Um, because so far we've not seen it. So anyway, thank you for answering the questions on that. I'm going to move on um to Lloyd Melville. Thank you, convenor. Um, I want to talk about fairs. Um, the abolition of peak fairs for good. Very welcome uh uh commitment and policy by the government. Um, have you noticed a change in people's travel patterns since then? Are people moving from car onto the train? are the moving from bus onto the train since that policy came in. >> So, um, thank you, Deputy Convenor. I might say a few words and then Graeme Cook might want to say a few words on behalf of Transport Scotland. Um, so our [snorts] C customers were delighted um with the news that peak fairs were gone for good. In addition to making um it cheaper to travel at certain times of the day, it's also simplified the fair's offering. So, for example, we had evening peaks in some areas and not in the others. So it's very reassuring to our customers that they can buy a ticket and travel at any time of day. Um in terms of the annualized position and it's only this month that we have actually annualized the position on removing um peak fairs um and we also have the fairs freeze um which again um governmentbacked as it was a policy decision by government and our customers um are very happy with in terms of our passenger numbers and um year to date we have seen about a 7% increase across our network and year on year um in terms of journeys, but in terms of that multimodal modeling and looking at the impact on other aspects um of public transport, that's something my team are participating in, but it's certainly being led by Transport Scotland. >> Grim, thank you. Um so work is underway to assess the impact of the removal of peak fairs and also of the fairs freeze. Um the statistical analysis will conclude um we think in early 2027 that's the the target. It does take time to do meaningful useful statistically relevant analysis. Um not least because excuse me [clears throat] patronage is is sensitive to a number of different factors um including weather for example. Um so we need to get a large enough sample size to make it meaningful. Um but yeah early 2027 is when we expect that analysis to be complete. >> Thanks. And and you you mentioned Joan um about kind of about support from the government. Um and it's a significant investment by the government to um scrap peak fairs. Um has it paid for itself yet? Um so as I said so we've only just annualized um in terms of journeys and its contribution to the broader decarbonization agenda by government. We are seeing that increase in journeys um we will be closely monitoring our revenue figures now that it's annualized. So this month >> but it's not paid for itself yet. So given that we have um a fairs freeze on last year despite our increase in passenger numbers our revenue growth is our revenue growth is around half a percent to a percent as I say that's contributed to by both the fairs freeze and the removal of peak fairs but the good news story is that um in terms of decarbonization we're certainly seeing more passenger journeys >> okay do you think the um the fierce freeze in the scrapping of peak fairs has been value for money so far for passengers. >> So um four years into public ownership and last year um we had an external survey conducted and jointly by oursel and network rail that tells us that rail contributes 4.1 billion to the broader Scottish economy. Um, so I'd say that in some ways answers a value for money question. >> And you'll have seen there's been some concern about the minimum fair, um, which I I appreciate is is is largely for for ticketless travel. The minimum fair is is £10. Was that the figure that you wanted it to be? Um so we looked um at various iterations of the minimum fair um and we took various proposals to our boards um and to transport Scotland before we actually introduced the minimum fair on the 1st of July. We had a three-month education period. So that was opportunity for our staff to engage directly with customers especially those buying on train and at gate lines to explain that they would pay the minimum fair in future. um and it is absolutely paying dividends for us both in terms of um revenue generation but also in terms of the other consequences. For example um as I mentioned earlier antisocial behavior is often committed by those choosing to travel um without a ticket. >> So who signed off on the final figure? >> So the final figure would make it all its way up. So we I send it on to Scottish Holdings who then um send it onwards to Transport Scotland for approval. >> Graeme, do you want to speak to who in Transport Scotland made the decision? >> The so the the decision is endorsed. Um so it was supported as a policy, >> not least um because of the impact on antisocial behavior. Um but of course the revenue we we do need to address the net cost of the railway. Um Joe's mentioned the the gross value ad of over four billion. So it does represent enormous value for the taxpayer. Nonetheless, that that doesn't mean that we can't address um the level of subsidy, which is significant 1.6 billion pounds a year. >> So in terms of the options to press this point, obviously we've we've got to a point where it's £10. Were there higher options considered for a minimum fair? >> [clears throat] >> I think that's better better answer by John. >> Um so so we did have a proposal where we could have looked at a higher option part of the process um of coming to a decision also involved in a quality impact assessment as part as one part of the decision-m process. Um and 10 pounds was deemed to be um an appropriate minimum fair to deter those people um who were trying to claim um for example shorter journeys than they'd actually taken and also to deter um those who were trying to travel without a ticket. >> Okay. Um coming to uh impacts of of of other public transport policy. Um you'll be aware that the two pound busfare cap is now um fully operational across the west of Scotland and indeed has been in in the Highlands and Islands for for some time. Have you made any assessment of the impact of that on passenger numbers on your services? >> So thank you. So in terms of the two pound bus cap, um we've been working very closely both with Scottish Rail Holdings and with Transport Scotland um since the manifesto commitment was announced to roll it out to the rest um of Scotland. Um there was the trial h in the north of the country um which we are aware of and we're we've been modeling the impacts of that with Transport Scotland. Um just last week the two pound bus cap rolled out um broadly across the Strath Clyde area. So it's very early days in terms of the impact of that. We are very aware um that we need to ensure that we are as competitive as we can be um and we build customer confidence um in choosing us whether that be for a leisure journey or to get to work. H we know that in Strath Clyde on journey time in large parts of Strath Clyde we are much quicker than the bus and and we know that especially for commuters in their decision- making processes they are very led by journey time and so we will be watching it closely and we are working um with Scottish Rail Holdings and Transport Scotland to understand um when [snorts] the two pound bus cap will be rolled out to other parts of the country and how it will operate. But in terms of your kind of initial data, I appreciate that it's still quite early days. Um, but uh I would have thought you would have received some data uh for the Highlands for instance uh from your stations. Is there anything that you can share with the committee about that? >> So in terms of the trial in the Highlands, so I'm sure some of the committee will be even more familiar with this than I. Um but the trial happened around the time where there's a lot of tourist travel um in the Highlands. So we did see about a 10% extrapolation. That's what we'd call it. So shift modal shift. And we know that in some parts of the highland bus can actually be quicker than train due to the stopping patterns of our trains. And but again that's something that we are continuing to monitor. Okay. >> And we're also aware obviously that 40% of the population already qualify for free bus travel. So, you know, we we've always been in competition. >> Okay. >> And given that um there's such a big price disparity now between the bus and the train, are you looking at other ticket price incentives, for instance, if if your data was to tell you that there has been a big shift from the train to the bus because of the price element, will you be looking at at price incentives to try to get people back onto the railways? Um so and the short answer is we're always looking um at ways in which we can innovate. We know there's a cost of living crisis and we know the challenges around child poverty in Scotland. Um you know we've had great backing from the Scottish government in terms of peak fairs being gone for good in terms of the fairs freeze. We're proud of the value for money we already offer for example on kids for a quid where a fair paying adult can take um four children out with them um for a pound on a return journey anywhere in the network. Um we've promoted our great value um holiday passes where families can travel together um and we're promoting that again for the October holidays that are upcoming. So we are committed to looking at ways in which we can bake in better value for money. Um and as part of our budgeting rounds and indeed as part of um the smart ticketing advisory group and other um groups that we are involved in across industry, we're always looking um to develop our fairs in terms of the value for money offering. >> Okay. Does anyone else want to come in on that point? >> I think I just echo Joe's comments but and and also the um I think it's you mentioned about trying to extract people back out from buses. You we do try not to see ourselves as in competition across public transport modes but more working um together and of course the different people have different motivations for uh taking uh you know whatever mode of transport they choose for some journey time may be the most important thing in which case we're likely to retain them. If price is the most important thing if bus is the cheapest option then then then they will choose that option and that's now available to them. Okay. Anyone else? No. Thanks. Come here. >> So, um, Glasgow to Inesse two pound on a bus potentially if it's a national scheme. What would you say to that Joan if that was to come forward as a proposal? >> So, at this present time, um, we are working hard to, um, replace our intercity trains. Um so we will be replacing them um with the treble twos that are um current that are going to be um refitted h and um have some maintenance improvement work done before uh you see the first trains in service in late 2027. So we are absolutely committed to improving um our customers journey experience on inter city Glasgow tess being one example of that um part of that um business case um was developed on the basis of the fairs that we currently charge. So um2 um on that journey on that corridor would be a concern to us. However, we will absolutely be committed um to marketing um our uh services as best we can to ensure that we retain customers and are always looking to build our customer base. As I say, um you know, things like our kids for a quid and our family passes where we offer unlimited travel across Scotland for £50 um during the holidays um are value for money and we're always looking to improve value for money. But if government were to say that the two pounds would apply um across intercity routes then yes that that would be a concern to us. Have you heard that Graham? What's your thoughts about that? Did are you hearing what the concern from Scott Rail is about if the scheme is rolled out nationally and there's two pound versus I don't know what's the fair to from Glasgow to Veress 20 plus. Um what what's your response to that Graeme? So we are committed to introducing the legislation for a nationwide two pound bus cap before the end of this parliament. Um it it is a priority for the government to roll this out to the rest of Scotland. [clears throat and cough] The analysis is ongoing. Um the data coming in from the Highland pilot and the data beginning to come in um from the Strathclide um interim roll out will inform exactly what the nationwide roll out will look like and of course information coming back from uh alternative modes as well will will form part of that analysis and that picture. >> What what I don't want is the process describing about how you're going to reach decision. What I would really like is just a quality assessment of what Joan has just said that it would be a direct threat to their intercity services if you could get on the bus. Some of the quality of the buses now is quite remarkable. They're very comfortable. That would have a dramatic impact on Scot Rail, publicly owned Scot Rail services. So, what are you advising ministers on that? So the analysis hasn't yet been done on on those numbers on those data. >> We don't have a but we don't have an intercity service just now. So how can you make any assessment? >> We we do have an intercity service just now. It's run run with the HSTS which are being replaced by the 222s. So >> we're talking about an intercity bus two pound. We don't have that just now. So how can you make the assessment? not at two pounds but of course 40% of the population can travel for free on those intercity buses right now. Um but in terms of the analysis and the data being gathered to inform that advice to ministers then absolutely um the feedback from not just Scott rail but all of the rail operators for example LNER go right up to Aberdine that's an important intercity service within Scotland. So the input, the data, the concerns um and the opportunities being fed to us by all of the rail operators and other modes will absolutely form part of that analysis and part of that ultimate advice. >> Okay, Lloyd Melville. >> Thanks Camil. The point I was just going to make is that um if you wanted to get a bus from from Glasgow uh Buchanan bus station to um UK Pier for instance it's it's actually4 pounds because it's two pounds capped within one region and then two pounds capped in the other. But I think the the point is is a very fair one. you know, the price disparity is is significant and and I think that um it would be um a dereliction of duty, I should say, if you didn't model um that and and we look forward to seeing that data coming forward. >> Okay. Right. We're going to move on and Graeme Simpson. >> Um thanks very much. Uh we won't quite move on because I just uh want to just follow up on on that and then I'm going to ask about the uh rolling stock uh and then we'll move on to freight if the convenor will allow that. Very good. Um so just on just on the the discussion we've just had um I've I've got to say I will I will at current price point always get the train from where I live in East Coid into Glasgow. Um, it costs more than the bus, but there's a time factor as well that people have to factor in. Um, and it's significantly quicker by train. And actually, I like your trains. So, I will continue to do that when I'm going into Glasgow. Um, Graeme, I think it was you that said there's the subsidy um is 1.6 billion billion was that a year? >> 1.6 billion to track and train. So that pays for infrastructure and the the Scott Rail and Caloni sleeper services. >> Okay, >> that's for this financial year. >> Okay. I mean that's it's a significant amount. Um are we doing anything to reduce that figure? >> Absolutely. So the the the track and train with it the short hand for the entire system um is constantly vigilant um both in managing costs and in seeking opportunities for further revenue. Uh there are savings there have always been saving targets across the railway and of course rail reform um is an opportunity to integrate the railway to put it back together again um after 30 years of track and train being separate um and that will bring opportunities for further efficiencies as well. So from the top to the bottom of the railway system, the the rolling stock and the infrastructure um both revenue and costs are are very carefully managed to ensure that the the railway in Scotland continues to deliver significant value to the taxpayer. >> Joan, you were nodding at that point. >> Yep. So thank you Graeme for those comments. In terms of efficiency at Scot Rail, we look at it in two ways. One is what can we do to increase the revenue we're bringing in. So we look at passenger revenue but also how can we best use our station estate. So working with for example retailers to ensure that we are maximizing um the income we have from retail estate. So what can we do to bring more money in but we also deliver on efficiency and so this year we are delivering a12 million pounds efficiency program program. Last year we delivered around 20 million pounds of efficiencies. So we are absolutely um focused on delivering efficiencies into the system as well. >> Tasked with with doing that to reduce that subsidy. >> Um so we are um two two ways we are always tasked um with looking at how we can deliver more efficiently but we also look at working um on our own initiative. Um and as a Scott rail executive and also working with Liam and his colleagues through the alliance um executive we look at ways in which we can deliver more efficiently together as a whole system as well. >> Okay. Um I shall move on to the fleet. Uh you touched on it already Joan but I was having a quick look. Um, and correct me if I've got this wrong, but the Scott Rail fleet at the moment is older than uh the Rolling Stock average across the UK um at around 25 years. Uh that compares to a UK average of 17 years. So it's among the older operator fleets. Although if you're unlucky enough to travel by Chilton Railways, uh that is older. Uh that is the oldest. Um we've got some newer fleets. Um Lumo 3.8 years, Greater Anglia 3.9 years. Uh and indeed the Sleeper um 6.2 years. So you just explain to us in a bit of detail what you're doing to bring that figure down. >> Yep. Absolutely. And there are there are some um UK charts which um Scotland Railway tops. This is not one of them we want to top unfortunately and but we do. So you're absolutely right um Mr. Simpson and twothirds of our fleet um are going to reach the age where they're no longer fit for continued operation within the next 15 years or so. So we're absolutely committed to a program of replacement. Um I touched on the replacement of our HSTs which are largely um an intercity fleet just now. So we have um acquired the Treble 2s which will be going through an overhaul both in terms of maintenance in terms of the repaint and the internal um passenger layout to improve familyfriendly spaces to improve wheelchair spaces um and to improve um the overall environment for our customers. and you will see those trains start to enter service in late 2037. Um, and then with regards to suburban fleet, so these are fleets that you would see around you will see around Eastco Bride um, in the 2030s when they're introduced. You'll also see them around areas like Fif and the borders um, and the Glasgow sort of inner suburban roots. So Glasgow to Motherwall, Lark Hall, Lanarch and places like that. So we're currently in the invitation to negotiate stage with biders um for our suburban fleet. Um and h that process is ongoing. So um as I said 2030s we'll be looking um to introduce our new suburban fleet. Um I also touched on Eastco Bride because linked to everything we do. So suburban fleet is likely to be a mix of EMU and BMU. are battery electric trains as well as electric trains. Um but everything we do on fleet replacement um we do closely and in partnership with Liam's team and there's been some great examples of joint working in terms of planning for new fleets um and the electrification of Isco Bride last year um was a good example Miss Stevenson I remember you being at the re the opening of our new Hammer new hair meer station because we remember electrification just isn't about new fleets it's about the accessibility of the railway so we were able to deliver two new stations. We we' be able to deliver um lifts at stations where passengers wouldn't have been able to if they'd had um if they were disabled, they wouldn't have been able to travel between platforms previously. So, there are lots of opportunities to electrification, but electrification is also key to our fleet replacement and that's why the work is currently ongoing in FIF and the borders um to electrify those parts of our network. So we are progressing through our new fleet program and we're thankful to government for their backing um on that. Um Hannah I don't know if there's anything you want to say about new fleets. I think on the basis of keeping things short I we'll leave it there. >> Thank you. Um I'm just m >> it was no the other one is on. There we go. Sorry. Apologies everyone. Um I I may have misheard Joel, but I I think she said the 222s will be introduced in late 2037. It's late 2027 that the first 222 will come into service. >> Um I heard us say 2027. I've got that. >> Ah well apologies to everybody then. >> Yeah. >> Um uh yeah, I was also at the uh opening of Hair Meyers. Um startled one or two people by cycling there in my shorts. That probably was unnecessary, but um anyway, if we could break it down, um if we could look at the class 222 trains, they're going to be are they going to be refurbs? >> So, they are um having a maintenance overhaul and also being refurbished. That's correct. Yes. Before they enter service late next year. >> And are they diesel trains? >> They are diesel trains. They are less diesel. They're less emitting than our current HST fleet. However, the joint work that we done um across Scotland Railway, but um principally between Scot Rail and Network Rail was around the time scales for the replacement of our current HSTs um and the possibility um to electrify the route, which led us to conclude that there was a requirement for an interim diesel fleet. So they're diesel because the the roots are not electrified. >> They will not be electrified in time for the replacement time scales required for the HSTS >> by 2027 >> late next year. Yeah. >> Right. So when when will the roots be electrified? >> So I'm going to pass that question to >> Yeah, I could perhaps mic I perhaps come in on that. Um so we've got a rolling program of electrification which I think you'd be familiar with. As uh as Joe referenced, we successfully electrified the East Club bride line on time and on budget last year and we're currently um on the ground in F and B is electrifying that as part of the next trench of rolling program and the rolling program is really important because it enables us to transfer the skills and the project teams between projects um so that we retain the capability but can also continue to deliver better um more efficient electrification. So we're reducing the cost bit by bit. Well, when it comes to the long distance intercity stuff, um that that requires a a funding commitment that will um will exist over over multiple years and we're not yet at a point where we've got that funding commitment and to enable us to commence that electrification. What we would anticipate is in order to comply with the requirement to electrify or decarbonize the railway by 2045 that we'll be in a position to electrify um that th those lines by the end of the 2030s in time for the introduction of the permanent replacement of the intercity trains. >> Who do you who do you need the commitment from? Is it the UK government? >> No, it's uh Scottish government provide the commitment for all of our enhancement. So all of our enhancements are are funded through Scottish government. Yeah, >> we've got the commitment already, as I said, for five and borders, which is a£342 million program that's ongoing at present. And when we've made sufficient progress through that, we will turn our attention to planning for the intercity routes as well. And that will come at a a different cost um and uh and we'll we'll start to plan for that with Scottish government so that we can sort of sequence it and continue that rolling program >> and then you'll replace the diesel trains. >> Well, that with electric trains. >> Yeah. I mean Joe really u I thought described it really well in that electrification is not is not just something in in and of itself. It is there to facilitate the introduction of more efficient um and greener rolling stock. So we'll electrify so that um so that we can introduce the new rolling stock and um and that's that's done as part of a team across Scotland's railway. >> Okay, Graeme. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. the the Scottish government's ambition for electrification decarbonization of the railway is set out in a document called rail recharged um and so that sets out the fleet transition plans but also the electrification plans um that includes the policy to electrify um those intercity routes that have been touched upon um but yeah the ambition is set out in that document which I'll be happy to send to the committee >> okay that' be useful um If I could just ask about the suburban trains then are they brand new? >> So they will they will be. Yes, >> they will be. Okay, simple answer. I don't know if anyone else convenor wants to come in on this before I move on. >> Anybody else on this section? And before you do freight, could I bring in Martin first? That'll be okay. And then we'll come back to you. Yeah, Martin D. >> Yeah, it's it's freight that I want to to go on. Um, and I suppose this is really directed to to Graeme. Can you can you tell me what is being done to support the modal shift from road to rail for freight? >> Thank you. Um, so Scotland within a a GB context has shown genuine leadership when it comes to freight on the rails. Um, Scotland was first to actually set a growth target for freight. Um over the past decade 40 million pounds has been invested in re in rail freight specific projects. Um and in addition over41 million pounds in wider projects that have [clears throat] freight benefits that that would include for example electrification. Um the freight facility grant um has been a significant intervention as well helping uh West Fraser Limited and John G. Russell Transport Group um take millions of Lori miles off the system. Now to illustrate what's been taken off uh with support of these in in 2025 26 just over 10,000 commercial freight trains moved around 4 million tons of goods saving around 58 million lorry miles in Scotland and that's around 233,000 tons of carbon um reduced relevant uh compared to the equivalent road journey. by diesel HGV. >> Right. That sounds very impressive. How did we manage to do that with a freight facilities grant that sits at 1.3 million? The well freight facilities, freight heads, rail heads are already part of the system, of course. So, it's it's not just um new facilities um that are part of that intervention. Um and Network Rail has very specific targets um set by Scottish ministers to drive freight to work with um logistics firms um and to to put more and more um onto the rails. So it's it's greater use of existing facilities as well as new facilities. >> Okay. You you mentioned that that we've made very good progress. Now the targets we've got in this CP7, we're sort of two years into the current period. How how well are we doing towards making that 8.7% shift? We've had some significant dents um some big losses any um changes there um has impacted on the the number uh let's say the tons um on the rails um but with specific relation to the targets um I would look to to Liam to to answer the specifics. >> Yeah, I'm happy to come in there. Thank you, Graeme. Um, so we are we are behind our rate growth target for the control period. As you rightly said, we're halfway through the control period. The target for growth is 8.7%. Across the across the uh the control period and at the moment with what we currently now, we expect to outturn around about 4% of growth, maybe a little bit higher. That's with things that um we believe we can control and uh and there are things within this system as Graeme correctly pointed out that we we cannot control. So the loss of the the Inos traffic and also the loss of Royal Mail who shifted their operations from rail to to road that cost around 6%. So in effect our target became 14.7% if you were if you take the 8.7% um target growth plus the 6% loss and we recover 10% of that 14 I think in the in the current control period. It is not just um new facilities as Graeme said. Um we work very closely with freight community with with the freight community to improve um things such as uh train length um improve overall train performance. We've got a really good record of train performance for freight at the moment. So um cancellations um for freight are below one below the 1.4% target for each of the last three years. That's really strong considering some of the weather implications that badly impacts freight traffic. So we are working very closely with freight community. We're working closely with and increasingly closely with businesses who could choose freight in the future to try and make life easier for them to work out what is it that would attract you to um come to rail and to stay in rail. But freight even more so than passenger rail is affected by exogenous factors out with the direct control of the industry. Um notwithstanding that we'll continue to work with Transport Scotland and the freight community to try and get closer and close to that um that growth target. Um and I've given that number of roughly 4% by the end of the control period because I'm confident that we can get there. There are other elements of growth that um perhaps I have more me medium level of confidence on that could get us closer to the 8.7%. >> Yeah, that's all very interesting. Now I I'm trying to think well where would be the easiest way to get more freight off roads and onto rail? Um, and if I look at my own area, um, we have the port of Grangemouth, which is Scotland's largest container port. Now, currently, no freight going in or out of Grangemouth on rail. Now, the port itself has spent several million upgrading its inport facilities. It's well capable of that. Um, but the difficulty seems to be finding operators that can fill trains in both directions. So, so, you know, what can you do to assist with that? because that surely would make the biggest dent in our road to rail transfer if we could get stuff to the ports going by rail. >> Yeah. Uh you're quite right. Graange mouth is a is an opportunity for us. Um we've been talking to to freight company about how we can support them to provide that um that that multi-direction um stuff. the um the the big growth opportunity for us I think is in some of the en energy sector and some of the project work that is going on um across Scotland and how we can support that through rail and that's where some of those conversations talk about that 4% growth and that above 4% growth as well that's where those conversations are. We're trying to remove barriers to entry into the industry. Um and I think that uh we are increasing our capability in that space but there's probably a lot more that we can do to go direct to business and convince them because there are um you know road is there are fewer barriers to entry. >> Yeah. How how much have we spent say in the last few financial years on the mode shift revenue support >> on revenue support to freight? So not [clears throat] netware don't don't spend that directly directly to Graham. Yeah. >> So I have the the 40 million over the past decade um specific to rail freight. Um I've got some figures on some specific interventions. Um but I think I don't want to miss the job. I'll write to you with with the exact figures if that's okay. Mr. D. >> Thank you very much. >> Okay. Thanks very much. Back to Graeme Simpson. >> Well, Mr. Day has done a sterling job. Uh, and I think, uh, he's covered freight admirably. Um, I did have a slightly different question. >> Yeah. >> Um, not on freight. We were keen to explore last week. Um, I think this maybe a question for you, Mr. Cook. um what happens um when Transport Scotland is uh moved into government that we're >> we're going to come to >> Are we coming to that? >> We're coming to that later. That's okay. >> Right. Well, I've got no further questions. >> All right. Okay. That's fine. Um I'm going to come to Donald McKinnon. >> Thank you, Convenor, and thank you to the panel. Um I'm going to turn to Rail and the Highlands um briefly if we could. Um and I I'll just briefly pick up on the point that um that Simpson was making around uh replacement of rolling stock as well. And am I right in understanding that the replacement of some of the rolling stock in the routes that were discussed earlier in the central belt and then the intercity trains that some of that rolling stock would then be cascaded down to um the Highland lines. Um, I understand that at the moment the the trains servicing the West Highland line are currently um as old as 19 from 1987 to 1989. These are old trains already and these services could be being replaced with with even not older stock but but again with with H handme-down trains from other parts of the network. Is is that correct? Maybe Joan if you could take that first. Of course. So, uh, thank you for the question and yes, with regards to the replacement of our trains. So, inter city is up first. Um, our HSTs um are some of our oldest rolling stock. That will be followed by suburban. And then we'll be looking at a replacement of some of our rural fleets. But you're absolutely right, in the intervening years, we will be looking to move our rolling stock around so that the age profile overall will decrease. Um so there will be um removal a bit like the interim intercity fleet. So the where we're replacing intercity it's on an interim basis on an interim basis as rolling stock has moved >> and what sort of time scale would that look like for for seeing seeing um beyond that incident period for for the Highland lines. >> So as it stands our new suburban fleets um will be introduced in the 2030s. So you are looking at after that >> quite a while. It it is quite a while. Um in terms of the new suburban, it will take us around it takes around five years from commencing a procurement um exercise until we see trains in service. Um but we are committed to looking at other improvements and we have already delivered other improvements um in the far north and the west highland lines. >> Thanks for that. Um in the interest of time, I'll move on from this uh this point. um was looking at reliability um across the the highlands um and the the far north line caught my eye. Um in the past in 25 26 there was nearly 5% cancellations on on that route. In the past 3 years it was over 5% approaching six in 23 24. [snorts] Um there's clearly some issues in that line um pushing these cancellations above the the the average. Um and I'm also aware of um commitments in the past or at least discussions in the past about improvements to the line in the far north particular particularly looking at a a loop um in Mu Reward um and um something that would would improve reliability and improve the service and and and the times as well um which is another issue on that line in particular. Um, I was wondering if you could pick up on that point around cancellations around in on the far north line, but also that wider point about improvements in real infrastructure in in the north and in the highlands. And in the interest of time, I'll also add in the the West Highland line there as well and aware of some works taking place there. Um, Joan, I don't know if you you want to start and then maybe if pick up with Network Rail and >> Yep, that's it. So thank you for that. So since coming into public ownership, we've been committed to improving performance across our network. Um and there is a significant amount of work that has been done. The two biggest challenges for us um on performance have been around the availability of our train crew. So that's our drivers and our on train staff and also our aging fleet which the committee um have touched upon. Um, with regards to train crew, we have absolutely focused um, on delivering driver training and we are currently delivering with the back of the Scottish government the biggest driver training program in the UK. So we're training 160 drivers per year. Um, and through that we are reducing cancellations overall across the network and we are sitting at 2% cancellations. Um and that is a statistic that many operators especially with as challenging a geography as ours um would bite your hand off for. Um in terms of our fleet that remains our biggest challenge. So we've been addressing the driver challenge. We're addressing fleet. Two ways in which we're addressing fleet. One is with the fleet replacement program. But as you say um for some that means there will be some years before they see new trains. they'll see newer trains and then it'll be some years before they see new trains. So again um with backing of government we are investing in a capital improvement program and we are doing improvement works on our existing fleet to improve their reliability um which will lead to um reductions in cancellations um and also providing uh seat capacity. So, the number of seats we've committed to um across across Scotland um 92% of our customers tell us they're satisfied. That's verified by Transport Focus, our watchdog. And again, relative um to other train operators, that puts us um certainly one of the highest for a large operator. So, there is more to be done, but we have actually um driven down cancellations and public ownership. and we are committed to both maintaining our commitment to driver training and train crew training and but also to improving our fleets whilst we um wait for our new fleets. Um but I'm sure Liam will want to talk on infrastructure. >> Yeah, thanks Joe. Um so I everything Joe said is obviously spot on in terms of um overall levels of reliability. We have very low levels of cancellations in Scotland compared to the rest of the uh the rest of the network and that's something we're really proud of. We know it's really important to our to our customers. Um over the last so far in this control period, we've we've committed and we've started to spend roughly 40 million pounds on renewing um parts of the infrastructure in on the far north line, which is a significant investment for that line of route, but that's renewing what is is is currently there. You mentioned um a potential enhancement around um around a passing loop effectively. that would be an enhancement. Um and uh and that's something that Graeme might want to to comment on. >> Thank you. So Liam's mentioned the enhancements so far. Um as phase two of enhancements to the far north line. Um Network Rail have worked on an outline design of a new passing loop. Um the one you mention um there's no funding for that this year. Um, and any decisions as to whether or not that's one of the next investments in the railway will of course be subject to affordability considerations and and constraints, but the work has been done to start to understand um what it would take to to build that additional loop. Um, in terms of um significant investments in the Highlands, lots have been made, but convenor I won't I won't list them now um given the time. >> Yeah, thanks for that. Um just um um one one final question before we move on from this and uh it was around accessibility at stations. Um and uh the picture across the highlands isn't great. Um but actually the picture across um the the the whole country um could could be better. Um I I understand that 26% of uh stations in the highlands are fully accessible. Um but the picture across Scotland um is 37% as far as I can make out. Um what steps are you taking to improve accessibility full accessibility uh that is at stations um in the highlands but but across Scotland and across the wider network and maybe uh start with Gem on that one. >> Thank you. Um so accessibility is a a reserved matter in the railway. Um that doesn't mean of course that that Scottish ministers or transport Scotland are are disinterested. Um funding um does come uh from two sources there. Um and ultimately it is um network rail um and the funding uh let's say the GB side of the railway that will decide which priorities come first. Um so I I'll hand over to to Liam to talk further on that. >> Yeah, certainly happy to. So um as as Graeme says the access for all program is a department for transport program rather than a uh transport Scotland funded one. It effectively provides a pot of funding distributed across Scotland, England and Wales to improve accessibility at a variety of stations. We generally deliver those improvements um and that would um usually include stepf free access at stations um in control period six. So, we're in the halfway through the five-year period known as control period 7 at the moment. In control period six, we delivered improvements at um at six stations to make them step free access. Um in the current control period, funding is going to be less for that program. So, at the moment, the only station we've got committed by through the access for all fund is Belgrove station. So, Belgrove will be the only station at present which will get the full access for all treatment during this control period. though we do have some funding to do a detailed design at Falerk Grahamston as well. So um there is less funding for that program during this control period. So in order to supplement that and we know we know that's coming. So in order to supplement it we have developed across Scotland railway um railway for everyone program which looks at things that we could do that [clears throat] are easier than the full access for all scheme to improve accessibility at our stations. We look at all the stations across the entire network and whether they uh and the extent to which they're accessible from a perspective of getting to the station, moving around the station, getting on the train, and then getting off your eventual eventual um train as well. Um and we break it down to try and see well what elements of that can we deliver to improve overall quality of accessibility within um within existing funding arrangements within Scotland to supplement effectively supplement the access for all program. A good example of the work we've done is at Dumbar and I was recently at Dumbar with the cabinet secretary looking at a new footpath that has been put in in place on one side of the station which dramatically improves accessibility of that station um through some funding that's come from local council and from from other sources um to to improve the overall accessibility of the station outside out with the um the generally more expensive uh arrangements of an access program. So um we've done a lot of work in the past in in the last control period we're doing less work because there's less funding effectively in this control per grid but when we build new stations when we do electrification projects we take that opportunity I think Joe mentioned it earlier actually we take that opportunity to improve accessibility as well so um when we're going through the east bride when we're through east bride project improved accessibility and create a step free access at hair meers and the new east bride station and when we're doing five and borders we'll do more of that and then when we um when we go beyond that with the next stage of the rolling program of electrification, we look to include um include more activity at that time. >> Thanks. That's everything for me. Thank you. >> Right. So, we're already out of time. We've got lots to cover yet. So, I'm hoping you might be able to stay for a little bit longer. Yeah. You okay for that? Um, but before we move on from that, there was a Times report in November of last year that said, "Old, cold and dirty West Highland line is going off the rails." And there was concerns from a lot of users about not just the age of the trains, but the fact they were cold and the fact they were dirty. Um, and it was described as the first train in the morning thing from Glasgow was described as the Polar Express. Um, is that going to change this year? Are we going to have them better maintained, clean, and warm? Do you think that's going to happen, Joanne? >> Um, so thank you, Convener, and yes, I do vividly remember reading the report at the time. Um and we know that it's not good enough for customers and we have experienced um heating issues um with some of the fleets that serve um that area and our engineering team have been consistently looking at new ways to ensure that we can provide um a better passenger experience on those lines. Um so we we are making improvements um for this winter for those passengers um on on those lines. >> Okay, that's fine. Right, I'm going to move on to Irish Dwayne. Thank you so much, Convena. I was just hoping to move slightly on to climate change. I know it tangently relates to what Graeme was saying about electrification. Um and as we've seen recently down in England and Wales to an extent there's been a significant amount of heat waves which may have we wait for the investigation to conclude uh have led to some buckling of some train lines and some disruption on the services. I understand of course there's the uh the clement action plan for for Scott Rail. I was just wondering if we could dive a little bit deeper into what preparations we're making in the case that that starts to happen up here and are we concerned that there will be uh continued levels of disruption due to changing climate in Scotland? >> I'd be I'd be happy to answer that. Um, so everything you say is absolutely spot on and of course um we're very um sad to hear of the uh the derailments that took place in um in England in in in most one of the most recent heat waves. Um we also had our own heat waves here probably not quite as hot obviously but um but it's still a relevant factor for us as as Scotland gets warmer as well. But we are are I think ahead of the curve on climate change in Scotland compared to the rest of the network because we've of course have started to see the impact of climate change on our railway for a um for a longer period of time and most obviously and most tragically at Carmont um in uh back in 2020. So um we um in anticipation of climate change and the impact the house on the railway've started to invest very heavily in preparing our network for it. So, I've mentioned on a couple of occasions that we're roughly halfway through control period 7, five-year funding period. Through that fiveyear funding period, um our to the total expenditure through um operations, maintenance and renewal of the railway is roughly4.2 billion pounds. Um and half of that around 2 billion is spent on renewing the network. Um so, replacing what is currently there. And of that two billion around 400 million is dedicated to climate change resilience activity. So there's a lot of investment going into um stabilizing our earthworks um improving drainage um resilience of our structures and that's generally um as a result of and and preparing for inclement weather in Scotland particularly associated with precipitation and high levels of of rainfall. Um, we're also investing 100 million pounds as part of that in the removal of vegetation from the line side because that has an impact during storms with trees coming down and creating a hazard for trains. Um, and and that's a significant increase on the previous funding period as well. So, we've made really good progress on all of those activities. We're reducing the number of sites that are susceptible to flooding on the railway. We're stabilizing our embankments. You will see some of those things. So, if you're traveling about on the train, you will see some of the innovative things such as if you see these little vertical poles pop up along the line side. They are um Earthworks monitors that will tell our control center when anything starts to shift, particularly during weather. We've also got a dedicated weather um weather ops delivery center in in Scotland. We're the only part of the railway that has that in Britain where we've got 24/7 meteorologists, weather weather and rail experts working together to um to monitor when weather patterns start to shift in real time, how we respond to them and what operational things we want to put in place to mitigate the impact of them. So there's a huge amount of work already ongoing. Um but of course the um you know climate change marches on very very quickly and we will face more challenges like that. So when we go into discussion, we're commencing those discussions now about the next funding period, which will be known um confusingly as funding period one rather than control period 8. Don't get me started on that, but um when we go into those discussions, we will be making the case for continued ongoing and greater investment in climate change resilience. Um and I think we will need to reflect on the experience of south of the border and the heat um of this summer and whether that is caused um to require more investment in management of heat which isn't traditionally something that we need to manage in quite the same way that our colleagues after the border need to. >> That's very helpful and actually you touched on something that I was going to pull up on. Obviously climate change is anything but predictable. We don't know exactly what's going to happen at times and recent reports have indicated that we are now going to miss our targets of keeping the heat down. How far in the future are you guys looking when you're are so-called future proofing uh the tech and um how adaptable is that because things really can change at a hat when new reports come out when we see differing effects. >> That's a it's a really good question. We the answer is we look a long long long way in the future. So we will look at for example coastal erosion that's uh that is a feature in parts of Scotland particularly on the east coast where the railway is quite close to the coast. We look at projections over a hundred year time frame. And when we when we [snorts] did our first projections on that um we we set a range of possible um coastal erosion um scenarios. Um that started with well we'll see not much erosion to we'll see lots and lots and what we are now seeing around eight years since we first did that analysis is that we are right at the upper end of that. So we are seeing the the worst and and actually more so than we we even anticipated in the worst case scenario. So, we do need to adapt very quickly to those things. We have seen um increased amounts of um precipitation throughout um throughout throughout this autumn and winter seasons as well. We're expecting to see more of that. So, we look really far out for changing climate um scenarios and we try and plan accordingly. our structures when we renew them, our earthworks renew, we do that on the basis of protecting them for 30, 50 or 100 years into the future rather than just getting us through a few seasons. But at the same time, we do have to look at the short term as well. Um so I'm sure some of you will have read about or seen the super El Nino phenomena that is likely to hit us. So that's all about whe um the temperature of the oceans in the Pacific and then that has an impact on our climate and on and specifically on our railway probably sometime in the spring of 2027. So we are looking at what that means as well and what what extra we need to do to prepare ourselves for the short term as well as the long term. This is a really dynamic environment. We've got some brilliant climate change experts in network rail that are looking at all the different scenarios and what we're going to do to prepare the railway um and help to prepare Scotland for that um for that future. And we're not just working within rail. We do first of all we we do learn from railways um abroad that that experience different types of weather and we're also engaging with different um different uh transport networks in Scotland and uh and other other uh utilities such as water and canals and people like we we talk to all of them about the impact of climate change because it doesn't just affect the railway. >> Thank you so much. And if you'll indulge me, just one more supplementary convenor. And you're virtually very good at anticipating what my next question will be. Um, when looking at at things such as El Nino, um, and bringing it in the short to medium term, climate change often for many feels very tangental. Um, are we expecting significant disruptions to current services that we're seeing? Is there any ways that you are considering and communicating that to consumers as to why that's happening or why we're unable to adapt to it per se? >> So um obviously these things are very difficult to predict. Um we really don't know um the the scale of the challenge that we're going to face in in the next year. It's it's um it's something we we model different scenarios. Um, and if we if we have I think we're sort of expecting windier and wetter weather in the late winter, early spring, and we're expecting hotter air temperatures, which can lead to hotter rail temperatures in um in the summer as well. The extent to which that affects Scotland's railway is is really unknown at the moment, but we make our preparations in advance. I think it'd be far too early to say that we anticipate disruption. But if we do get closer to the time frame when we do think, well, actually there's going to be really severe storms or there's going to be extreme heat that we can't cope with, then we will look to communicate that, we'll work with Scott Rail to communicate that um to plan accordingly um as best we possibly can. We actually have a really good way of working around these weather events where we'll have a strategic um meeting about how we're going to face into some of these weather events. We'll determine the range of outcomes that could happen from a storm for example and what we are going to do with the service. If we lose lots of the network because there's trees down or because of any other thing, then how are we going to reopen it? How are we going to rep prior how we're going to prioritize? We work handin glove with Scott Rail on on working through that and obviously with communicating that to passengers as early as we possibly can. Joe is always on my case during these events say look let's tell passengers early early early and I'm well we don't quite know how things are going to work out yet. So we work really closely trying to trying to model what the outcomes might be to give as much well to minimize service disruption but to give as much confidence in what's actually going to happen um for passengers as we possibly can. >> That's very helpful and thank you. It's a deeply impressive system. So hopefully >> thanks very much Iris. We've witnessed your partnership working when we visited. So, um, we do recognize, including the sticks by the side of the Royal Wheel lines, as I call them. They're probably more sophisticated name than that. Um, but we're going to try and pick up the speed a little bit. Um, we've just got a few subjects left. Um, so first over to Lloyd Melville. >> Thank you. I wanted to talk about uh weekend uh rail travel. um there has been an uptick in in weekend rail travel as as people are um looking to to um get out and about h for leisure purposes. Do you consider weekend services to be meeting that demand currently? Joan, >> so thank thank you for the question and we we absolutely recognize that you know in a post-pandemic world leisure travel is more important to us um than it ever has been. Um, and we are seeing some really busy weekends. You know, just this year we've had the combination of the Edinburgh Festivals and the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow and making for a really busy summer for us. Um, and some of our busiest weeks and some of our busiest Sundays in fact since entering public ownership. Um, we review our timets twice a year. um and we go out and we consult um broadly on those timetables um across Scotland and in fact I myself go out and hold um meetings um in different parts of Scotland um around every six weeks. Just last week, two weeks ago we were in um offering to meet local MSPs um and local counselors and other elected representatives. So we consult broadly in terms of building the timetable. we have ambition um to do more um on a weekend specifically on a Sunday. Um >> you know what I'm going to ask next. >> However, um we um we know that this is this is a whole system approach. So um we can't just look at the Scot Rail timetable whether it be Sunday or any other day. We can't look at that in isolation. Um when we look at running more services, we need to um consider what that does to the impact on engineering and improvement works that might be carried out at a weekend or indeed overnight. We we've spoken about freight. So what impact might it have on freight paths if we have ambitions to do more? Um and we also need to look at a staffing perspective um both from Scott Rail um and from a network rail point of view. Um committee members may be aware that when we came into public ownership, we did make a public commitment to bring Sunday into the working week at Scot Rail. Um so like most train operators in the UK, we run services over seven days of the week and but staff are largely contracted to work across Monday to Saturday, so six days of the week. Um so we have um developed a proposal um that is going through um the necessary approvals um because we'd need to be able to negotiate with staff on their terms and conditions because we're going to ask them um to contractually um work on a Sunday. Um and we'd also need um to increase the number of train crew we have um to be able to deliver our train services reliably because again you're stretching your resources across a 7-day commitment rather than six. Um so that is um something that we have ambition to deliver and are committed to doing so because we also know there's a revenue potential and that decarbonization impact of getting more people onto the train and out of their cars on a Sunday. >> Thank you. appreciate that. Um, Bony Feith though, the trains run past Bony Feath on a Sunday. They don't stop there. Now, this is a small growing community. It's seen big uptick in passenger numbers since services have expanded across the the other six days, which is very very welcome. Um, but on a Sunday, train will stop at Broy Ferry, it'll go past Monie, it'll stop at Kerni, and then it'll keep going. Um, why can't it stop at Monie? So um stopping patterns um aren't just uh dependent on a train passing a station. There's lots of different variables [clears throat] including journey time um including um staff availability. H certainly um it's something that we're happy to take off. I know that um we met with Graeme on more than one occasion um around this matter and it's certainly something that we'd be happy to come out um and meet with you on very specifically um and look at the possibilities but um unlocking Sunday in the working week is going to be key um to improving our Sunday timetable. >> That would be useful. I mean I think in particular because um it is something that has been uh longstanding particularly within the community and you and I have had discussions about that previously as well. If I can turn though away from my own constituency towards um late night services um because um they are uh limited and I'm aware that Scott Rail particularly when big events are are on do try to put on more services and that is very much appreciated but I think what people are looking for particularly if they're safe they're going out to Edinburgh on a on a Friday night um they want to go out and have a nice time they want to be able to get back reliably um how are you looking at building in later services as you're evaluating the timetable going forward Yeah. So um it it's very good challenge and it's challenge that we have heard before and again you know I refer to a whole system approach. So um I'm sure most of the committee are probably aware but um a lot of our maintenance is done overnight. >> Um so whether that be uh cleaning the train and and I' I've been out and seen the the very hard work that our train presentation staff do on cleaning trains overnight um and maintaining our trains overnight. And as I say, there's work done by um Liam and his teams um largely overnight when the railway is not operating. And not to forget um that we have freight trains which run through the night and services like the Caledonian Sleeper. Um so as we continue to deliver the biggest driver training program in the UK, so 160 drivers a year um and unlock Sundays in the working week, we can also look at other possibilities. But I say it's all about whole system change and what we can operate and when and obviously new fleets as well will give us opportunities to do things differently. >> Okay. I don't know if I have time to go into the performance uh piece. >> Yeah, I think we'll just we've still got quite a few other things to do. So move on. >> I'm happy. All right. Thank you. >> Okay. Colette Stevenson. >> Thanks very much convenor. Um I'm delighted that Esco Bride's real enhancement has been showcased very well today and um you answered quite a few of the questions in terms of like the actual rolling stalk and the electric trains as well. One of the things um that we also touched upon um is the actual project value of these infrastructure uh programs such as accessible clean toilets, clean carriages as well. But one of the things and G I met with them actually network really bride was the social value. So it's like community benefits. So there was 11 young people that get taken on um during that time um as part of the real academy. I'm just I'm just curious to know um if how they got on in terms of their employment, but also do you keep a register of what community benefits that you provide as well? Um I'll ask Liam that. Thanks. >> Yeah. Um thank you for the question on that. Um I think the the rail skills academy that you referred to is one of the initiatives that um I think you know I'm probably proudest of um within uh within what we do in infrastructure. So Ekkill bride much like um the leave and mouth project for example um are projects delivered by a series of um contractors. So um somewhere between six and eight depending on the particular type of skills that we require and the skills academy um enables um enables us to bring on young people who perhaps wouldn't have an opportunity to get into the industry might actually not have an opportunity much employment opportunity at all by giving them experience within one of those one or many of those um companies during the um during the project itself. And then at the end of the project or a certain time during the project um they are interviewed for um permanent roles and um to use your example of Eastbride um I think all 11 of those young people managed to get a permanent role within the industry which is transformative for their life experience and you know we should all be very proud of that and it's some it's a model that we're hoping to continue with um with future projects as well because we see so much social value in it. Brilliant brilliant thing. Um and we do keep a record of all of the uh community um value that we bring through these projects and we have somebody within my communications team who's uh who's sort of responsible for for covering that. So if you would like we'd be happy to share with you some more details um of exactly what that is outside of the committee. >> Yeah, that would be really helpful. Thank you very much. Just quickly on future projects, um, Clyde Metro, which has appeared in so many transport strategies since a way back in 2009, but there's there's still nothing as as Graeme and I too, it's just a squiggle really. So I I'm wondering if um you are aware or you can comment, Graeme, I say you in terms of when is this going to be completed? what are be going to the you know the details of it as well and and and particularly for the public as well because it's been mitted about for for quite a while now and who is ultimately responsible and accountable for it and um quickly will bride fair in that as well. >> Thank you. Um so in November 2023 the then cabinet secretary for transport net zero and just transition endorsed the outcome of govern governance discussions uh around this and at that time um it was decided that Strath Clyde partnership for transport and supported by Glasgow City Council um would be the the primary partners um to look at delivering the Clyde Metro and Transport Scot Scotland performs an assurance role in that. Now that assurance role is about making sure that any business cases that come forward um are of a a form that could be supported by Scottish ministers and the necessary um checks and balances that come with significant investment. So it's up to SPT and the Glasgow City Council to come up with that case for investment. That's currently anticipated to be complete in mid 2027. >> Thank you. Yeah, that's me. >> Thank you, Colette. Graeme Simpson. >> Yeah. Um, I'm going to ask you about Winchra. Before I do, if I could just go back to the Sunday service. Um, and getting drivers on a Sunday roster. Um, is that dependent on hiring new drivers on new contracts? >> Nope. That is not part of our plans. Um our plan is to work um with ALF who are trade union who represent drivers and as you'd expect we've had ongoing informal conversations with ASL um about implementing Sunday in the working week because there was a very public commitment made to that and through our 2022 pay deal. As I referred to, we would need additional drivers as we'd need additional um train crew to run to run um Sundays in the working week contractually. Um but it would be about negotiating a change to existing contracts. >> It would and are ASL being cooperative? Are they resistant to the idea? >> We are very proud of the relationship we have with all four of our recognized trade unions and it's something that we've been able to work very hard on since coming into public ownership. Um, so we have been very much having conversations with ASL and meeting them with them as we do regularly um, in developing a proposal around Sundays in the working week. >> That didn't quite answer the question. Are ASL opposed to the idea or not? >> Absolutely not opposed to the idea. It will always be a negotiation as it would with any trade union. >> Okay. Um, winch >> they've signed up to it. >> They've signed up to it. >> Well, through the through the pio they've signed up to made a commitment to Sundays in the working week. >> Good for them. Good for them. Um, Winchbr um long-standing proposal to build a new station. I don't know who wants to answer this, Graeme Cook. Um, so the proposal's there. We've got the business case. We just haven't got the money yet. Nobody's agreed to pay for it. So, Mr. Cook, who's going to stump up the bill, and when are we going to see a new station? So as co-promoters um of the new station um the West Loing Council and Winburgh Developments Limited retain responsibility for that that business case. The OBC so the outline business case is broadly concluded and and the mitigations to address um any risks within that um will be covered by a final business case. Officials in Transport Scotland are investigating the financial options available for delivery in advance of putting an evaluation of those options to Scotch ministers. >> Right. So what's the time scale? >> So the advice will be going up imminently. It's not quite ready yet. Um I can't put a specific >> advice to ministers. >> Yes. >> So that's going to be soon. And if ministers say go for it, then when can we expect to see a new station? >> I I'm afraid I don't know how long it would take to um run tenders and establish the supply chain and so on, but perhaps Liam could give an idea. Well, I what what I can say is that we would need to go through a detailed design phase that would probably take about a year before we would then be able to enter into um enter into tenders and into the delivery stage. >> Okay. So, we still need we need a decision from ministers. We need the advice to ministers first, then a decision from ministers, then go out to tender. Somebody needs to design it. That could take a year, then we've got to build it. So all this could take several years. Meanwhile, Winchra continues to grow and it doesn't have a train service. It's not very good, is it? What I would say is that since 2020, we've funded the railway industry to construct 24 new stations across the Scottish network. So, um, yes, it does take a long time to establish the right due diligence and to make and do the right designs. Um, it has to be safe. It has to be robust and we need to be able to demonstrate to taxpayers that it was the right investment and achieving that does take time. Yes, but we've got a significant track record of delivering new stations in Scotland. I'm I'm not doubting you have delivered new stations, but this one is desperately needed. I'll leave it there. >> We'll excuse the pun of your track record. >> Thank you. >> But we're going to conclude um with some quick questions from from Irish Dwayne. >> Just very very briefly as I'm aware of the time. Obviously, Great British Railways is now a new and large factor in the way that we are providing our railway service. some of that will how that looks in Scotland will come down to political decisions both made at Westminster uh and made here at Hollywood. But I just thought very briefly if whoever wants to take it if we could reflect on what you think would be the most effective way to integrate British railways with our existing services. >> Yeah. So I mean others might want to comment but um the one thing that I would like to comment on is that in Scotland we we are proud that we've been trailblazers in terms of the way the railway works together. You know the convenor mentioned that he had seen that in action firsthand when he came out to visit our integrated control center. So the work that both Liam's team and I do day in day out to deliver best outcomes from passengers has been seen as trailblazing in terms of our alliance work. Um but I don't know if other wants others want to comment. >> Yeah, I mean I'm happy to come in as well. Um um I've worked in this industry for 23 years now. Um and I'm absolutely convinced that a more integrated railway is a better railway. We will make quicker decisions. We will make better decisions that are um really aligned if our incentives are the same, if our reasons for doing business are exactly the same. Um, and it's not that they are, you know, really different at the moment, but I think the more that you can give clarity to that, the better. So, I'm really interested in how we integrate. I think we had an a conversation earlier about nighttime services, for example. Now, I think there is an opportunity in a more integrated environment to really look at nighttime services and determine whether we could run later trains to service the nighttime economies. um in you know particularly in Edinburgh for example run later services but then um maybe stop services a little bit earlier on different days of the week or different times of the year in order to ensure that we can still carry out the necessary maintenance work. That's that's stuff that we could do now. It's just it's just quite complicated because of the industry arrangements, but a more integrated railway should be able to make those decisions more dynamically and and more easily. So, um, I'm really excited about what integration can mean for Scotland's Railway and we really look forward with the interest to see how it plays out here. >> Any further reflections? >> Yeah. >> So, I'm like Joe and Liam, I think it's really exciting the prospects of more integration for the railway and that kind of the way that we work together to the benefit of all the passengers and the taxpayer. What I would say is that I appreciate that the the political decisions you refer to those are often about the structure that we that that is chosen for the basis of that integration. I think what's really important is we look at the the cultural change because the structure will be what what it is. Um I think that building on the existing alliance work of um both Scot Rail and Network Rail will be absolutely key to to bringing forward that integration. And I think you know the the leadership we demonstrate uh today to to make that real. >> Well, fair enough. I [clears throat] guess go ahead. >> Thank you. >> We we have heard from colleagues in Whiteall and we've heard from Westminster um that it very much is the case um that rail reform um has been inspired by the success of Scotland's railway alliance. Um, so we've heard that from significant figures and we hear it again and again. Um, so I am very confident that not only is Scotland already benefiting from the benefits of a more integrated railway, um, also that we'll benefit even further when there's [clears throat] changes to the underlying legislation that will enable further choices to be made to better integrate the railway. >> It's nice to see everyone singing from the same sheet. Uh, in the interest of time, I think I'm happy to leave my question. >> We've got we're going to squeeze one very last small one in Graham Simpson. >> Um, I've got to apologize for the late running of this particular train, but you're not entitled to compensation, I'm afraid. Um, [snorts] if I can go back um to the question I was trying to ask earlier um about just to get a sense of how you think the new arrangements for Transport Scotland might work in practice. um when it's brought into government. We were exploring this last week. Um don't think we're I'm certainly not clear how it's how that would work um on the ground. Do any of you have any any thoughts? Yeah, Mr. Cook. Thank you. So, Transport Scotland has played a pivotal role um in transport um over the last almost 20 years in Scotland. Um but policy shifts, the opportunities of public service reform as well as the fiscal pressures mean it's time to look again um to see if we if there are opportunities um to [clears throat] do things differently. Now two of the stated aims of the public service reform program are to be more efficient and productive and to be more preventative. So it's inevitable that having multiple layers of accountability in a system comes with complexity and a degree of duplication of reporting. So removing a reporting layer will give the opportunity to release staff time to being more preventative. I I would say that's being more efficient and delivering the the benefits the stated benefits to be delivered through public service reform. What what's the reporting layer that's that would be removed though? >> Well, Transport Scotland reports into government. So, um Allison Irvin, our chief executive um is an accountable officer. Now, that requires sets of accounts to be prepared. Those have to be submitted to the core government. Those then need to be scrutinized by the core government and then they need to be considered by the director general. um that will be removed by Transport Scotland moving into the core. Um something as simple as the accounts will become part of the wider account system. Um so there isn't that same reporting on accounts and then that scrutiny scrutinizing of those accounts and those accounts being wrapped up into the Scottish government accounts. So there there's one opportunity if you like of um a more efficient system uh by removing a layer of reporting. >> So do we not have an accountable officer then? >> The accountable officer um will be the director general and the permanent secretary as as the primary accountable officer. So there will still be accountable officers um and they will absolutely be accountable to this parliament. Um but yes the that just the the the layers will reduce the numbers of reports layers of scrutiny and so on will reduce. So there's there's an opportunity for um being more productive and more efficient there. >> Okay. I know we're going to want to explore this further but we don't really have time. collect you on a very very very short >> it's very quickly but I think you're right Graeme we probably do need to look at this further because the taking that I take it transport Scotland's a registered charity >> transport Scotland is a nondep departmental government body >> right okay so I take it then when you transfer over will the staff will be getting to appealed over >> so the we're actually sorry transport Scotland is an agency um and so all of the transport Sport Scotland staff are um already part of the civil service. There will be no change in employment whatsoever. It's the same same legal entity. So as as an agency, Transport Scotland is the same legal entity as the Scottish government. So there won't be a change of terms. There won't be Chupy or Kosop. >> Okay. Thanks. >> Thanks very much, Colette. Um thank you for your indulgence. um we've stayed much longer than I promised at the very beginning, but you can't trust politicians. So, um you should expect that. But thank you very much for your evidence this morning. There's been some challenging questions, but we appreciate your answers that you've provided today. And so, that brings us to the end of this morning's evidence session. I thank the panel. Um and that concludes our meeting in public. I'm now going to suspend the meeting before moving into a private session. Thanks again.