Trade, tech and geopolitics: what you need to understand about China today

Welcome to Radio Davos and >> I'm Ravi Valour with the Straits Times and this [music] is the Straits Times Asian Insider podcast. >> It's great to be pres co-presenting with you Ravi. Absolute delight. We've talked about this literally for years. >> Absolutely. >> And uh so finally we get to do it. Yeah. So Radio Davos for your listeners is the weekly podcast from the World Economic Forum which looks up lots of big issues in the world with the emphasis on potential solutions, ways of dealing with those problems. What What's your podcast about? >> Well, it's about Asia generally and it's a weekly podcast [music] and it rotates between four of us and I do it on the second Friday of every month. >> Great. Well, and audiences will get the best of both worlds. We have a fantastic guest with us to talk about China and China in the world. She's the founder and chief executive officer of Wawa Advisory. It's Tienlu. >> Correct. >> Very good. [laughter] Did I get the name of your advisory company? >> Absolutely. Yes. Thank you. >> Tell us what what that is. >> Wawa is a name um that I created. It takes after the Swahili name of Wawa. So takes the W outside the equation. So it's USA WA which means balance and equity. So I got the inspiration from Masamara when I was there and I realized look at nature you know nature has this magical way of balancing different species and how is it in the current geopolitical world that we have is so disrupted and uneven. So I felt that you know the company that we have um the mission is really to provide that understanding and bridges to help the business to navigate through this very uncertain and uneven geopolitical world especially in the age of China rising and Swahili is great because that's where humans originated from. So that's how we got the name. The purpose is to help business to navigate through this uncertain and uneven geopolitical world. You're the perfect guest for this episode. >> Absolutely, Robin. >> She's absolutely perfect. And what a name uh that that you given your company. If you don't mind me telling you a little bit of a story about the African dung beetle. Uh [laughter] >> would you be s would you like to know that the African dung beetle navigates at night using the Milky Way as its guide point? >> That's beautiful. That shows how related man and not just man but beast and even the smallest insect is with the universe. >> Yeah. >> Wow. We've started very poetic and but it's great to be talking about the environment because I've not been hearing enough about that. >> Absolutely. >> Um you know our relationship with nature >> ecosystem really. >> Great. Well hopefully we'll get on to that a little bit. But first you mentioned the the period of China rising. Um we're speaking by the way uh here at the World Economic Forums. summer Davos in China in Dallion and yeah it's China rising but there are challenges to the Chinese economy aren't there if I came to you and said can you explain to me we know China's had an economic miracle but where are things right now what are the challenges what would you tell me >> yeah so uh I'd like to start by saying that there are both challenges and great opportunities at the Chinese economy but when we look at the challenges um let me frame it when we look at sort of the typical way of looking at any economy which is the three key pillars the export and the import sector the private consumption part and then there is the investment part so when it comes to export actually it's very important to know that as much as the world is talking about China you know over capacity um sort of uh the rising trade surplus like last year China's trade surplus grew by 20% compared to the year before right um so this is causing a lot of discussions in the world but the truth is export does not matter matters to China as much as before. At the peak of time about 20 years ago, 2007, export was 35% of China's GDP and right now is about only half of that. Last year was 19 18% of it. And as much as we talk about you know tariffs with the US for instance, the trade to US is only a tiny part of that. In in fact last year, China's export to the US was less than 10%. And so that is less than 10% of less than 50% of the peak. So when you do the math, even if the entire China's export to the US were to collapse, that is only about 2% of China's GDP. So export as important and much discussed is not the most important part of the Chinese economy. But there are of course challenges. for instance, terrorist war with the US, but I'm a lot more worried about the upcoming uh trade war potentially um with with Europe. So that's one side and then the largest part of the Chinese economy is private consumption and that's worrying because that's almost 40% of the GDP. So how how this perform is fundamental um to Chinese economy but there is a level of lack of confidence to start with the uh annual disposable growth rate is much slower compared to before so last year was 5% the same level of GDP not like 8% or double digit growth right and on top of that the unemployment rate is quite high and the youth unemployment is especially high um depending on you know different surveys whether it's official or some professors the highest number I've seen for youth uh unemployment was 46% a couple of years ago and this is enormous so imagine you're one of the consumer >> 46% 40% yes for youth right so kids graduate from college they don't have a job right so put yourself into their shoes then >> your annual income is not really growing as much as before on top of that you have a much higher chance of getting unemployed of course you don't have the confidence to spend and there's another side of that which is the wealth um uh impact. So property market is very important to China and according to some different surveys the absolute majority of Chinese household own a house of some sort. So more than 90% of Chinese household own a house and 20% of them own at least two houses or even more. Now when the property prices start to drop that means all of a sudden I don't feel as rich as before but when the price was going up before every day even if I weren't doing anything I was becoming richer of course I had the confidence to spend but now I don't so when you put all these three together I'm not earning as much or rapidly growth as before I have a higher risk of getting unemployed and then I'm not as rich as before obviously the confidence to spend is much lower than before. So that is really the biggest challenge for the private consumption part. And then finally is the investment side whether it's infrastructure or property market or just sort of overall investment fiscal investment you know all the companies investment we're also seeing that um a level of uncertainty whether is caused by the external world or the lack of confident that is all feeding into that sentiment and then on top of that interesting there are times I compare China with Silinkin Valley in the sense that Silicon Valley is you know the place that we have venture capitals that we try a lot of different project right and in China is the same different provinces compete different cities compete so it's like a giant venture capital but the beauty of venture capital is that you have so many pipeline project at the same time and also the spirit is you fail fast and then you pivot fast and that was in in an essence how China was like people were encouraged to try different things. It's fine if you make mistakes but then you try something else but right now the overall sentiment is not to make any mistakes. And what is if if you change that success or pivot fast um if you change the KPI from that to make fewer mistakes then what is the safe bet? The safer bet is not to do anything. And that to me is something that is a big challenge that sentiment change in China. So, um, yeah, that's where China is. >> Chen, you know, uh, in April 2020, I wrote a column in the Straits Times, and it's called the risks of putting all your eggs in the China basket. >> And one of the points I picked up in that uh, column is the massive debt pile of China Everrand. And I said, look, this doesn't look sustainable. And it reminds me of the early days of the Asian financial crisis and you know what happened to real estate. But I've heard lately that a lot of that poison has left the system. Is there hope for a turnaround in Chinese property uh in the near future? Is there something that you see? I wouldn't um put my money to bet on a high return of Chinese property market in the longer term, right? >> There are certain positive factors that will continue to drive the Chinese property market, whether it's urbanization rate, where is the growth in people's incomes, da da da, but there are also big factors to um drag this down. for instance um whether the current stocks in certain regions are much higher compared to the actual demand or we look at um you know the major demographic shifts as such. So, so property market would not be like sort of the fast growing engine for Chinese economy going forward. >> Maybe pockets of it because I was talking to a major Australian uh property developer and they were talking about going into the elder care uh segment as a possible growth opportunity in China. You know, building for the elderly. Uh Robin, >> just for anyone who's not following Asia quite as closely as both of you, the Ever Grand affair was this uh Chinese property development company um that got into a lot of trouble because of debt. Um there was so much in in your initial answer. I don't know what to come back. The f the first follow-up question I thought of you said the impending trade war with Europe. I'm I'm often curious what is a trade war? Because is there a trade war with the the US at the moment? There certainly there've been trade battles maybe I don't know but why do you think there's well apparently an inevitable trade war with Europe? >> I hope I'm wrong but um perhaps instead of saying inevitable I would say the very likely uh upcoming trade war with Europe initiated by Europe. I just came back from Europe and I'm more convinced and worried than ever about that. So the trade, we'll call it trade war, trade frictions with the United States, you know, between these two countries, you're still seeing the the bans of rare rare earth or high-end chips and all of that. And you still see quite a level of terrorists um on many uh products. So I would still call that a trade war even if it's no longer 145% right. Um but with Europe is is different. US and especially the Trump administration is very quotequote practical about this. So to President Trump is more a negotiation is his art of the deal. So it's everything is about to come up with a number that he would be very happy about and he can change it from the morning to the evening but not so much about Europe. The way I see it is that Europe is slowly cooking that negative sentiment about trade with China, about trade um deficit with China, and that it takes quite some time for Europe to decide the actions, but once they do, it will stick. And when they do that, China will also retaliate. and China cares more about the United States um than any other countries unfortunately in this case and so China would retaliate and then chances are Europe would add on top of that and the narratives are just changing before it was just about trade and now it's changing into people are getting unemployed because of China there's part of me almost hating to repeat this at the podcast because it only reinforced versus that, you know. So there there there there's there two me at the moment. There's the me that is the economist me advising the world the risks are coming. There's the other me as a human and we know that psychologically the more we repeat something the chances are it'll happen or the more you're scared about something chances are it it will happen and this is where I'm worried about. >> So I had aligned at the economist about how China look at the Europe. People both love it and hate it. People love it because they believe it's so true. They hate it because it's so brutal. And I used to study and live in Europe. So there's part of me almost don't want to say it. But the line was that Europe is being seen as an aging concubine >> um that has not accepted the fact >> that it's been ditched by the American emperor. So as someone who studied and lived there, Europe is like my second home. It pens me to say that. Um and I certainly do not hope that we will see that >> uh trade war between Europe and China. >> Is it [laughter] >> is it so like like any war like a hot war you can see a buildup of arms and then someone goes over the top and the war actually starts. Do you know when it's going to happen and do you know what will be the first battle? Is it going to be about a certain product or product lines and is is this going to happen in the next six months in the next two years? >> Technically it already happened. I mean Europe imposed certain tariffs and barriers on for instance Chinese EV cars and China as retaliation also took on certain things such as um agriculture and also um cognac for instance and it was when you look at this is so interesting because EV is less than 1% of the trade between Europe and China less than 1% but is becoming the dominant talk about the Chinese trade with Europe right so China's retaliation is almost like so perfectly engineered to go against that versus one of that was cognac because cognac it has to be cognac from the region of cognac in France which is so typically European and is also less than 1% of the total trade between Europe and Europe and China. So China has engineered this beautifully. So technically it's already happened but more are being discussed as we speak. So later this year I think there's a very high likelihood that we're going to see more actions from uh Brussels. >> Right. Sure. And I know the Chinese too love their cognac, but have they tried armanyak as a substitute? >> Uh I'm not an expert on alcohol, so I I I can't different region. >> Maybe the almanac. >> I like bubble tea better. [laughter] >> Maybe the Armenyak producers should be lobbying Beijing for the cognac, >> right? Uh [laughter] can I just ask uh ask ask you a question because you talked about trade and uh how Chinese uh trade as a uh as a factor of the Chinese GDP has actually come down significantly. >> Yes. >> Uh but you know we in Southeast Asia we are very sensitive to uh China's economy. We want the Chinese economy to do well because it helps us as well, you know, but one of the issues we're having is that look, you did mention that trade as a percentage of GDP has come down, but we're talking about a much bigger as percentage >> uh as as a percentage of GDP has come down, but we're talking about a much bigger Chinese economy. Now this morning, Premier Lee Chang said, "Please don't talk about the second China shock." Uh, you know, I think he said that in his speech, but the fact is that China has got so good at manufacturing. uh and maybe you don't have much of a option because as you said investment is slowing, consumption is uh you know for whatever reason is taking a a breather but the the Chinese export push especially after the US markets became a little constrained into Southeast Asia is causing a lot of grief in Southeast Asia. In Indonesia, we have had significant losses in the uh textile industry and the Chinese are actually selling but shirts to Indonesia. In Malaysia, the furniture industry is in crisis because the Chinese exports are so good. Furniture exports. Thai auto industry is in trouble. Is there something? Because we remember China when we signed the ASEAN China FDA. China gave us an early harvest and which helped all the ASEAN economies. But today because of your own domestic constraints are you compelled to keep pushing the exports out into the world including in Europe you know to come back to where you started is that a factor that you know I mean you do need to find jobs for the people 45% youth unemployment is a frightening number you know the last I heard that number was in the Indian context I thought China was much lower than that 28% but what you said certainly surprised What do you think? What do you think China can do so that it doesn't kill the goose uh uh uh you know of consumption in the surrounding economies that are so critical to it? >> Yeah, that's a really good question and um there are few foes that we can look at this and to start with when I say you know export doesn't matter to China that much I meant from the Chinese economy perspective as the question went. Um but I certainly understand the level of sort of >> concern the rest of the world would have and even say that 5% of of GDP growth that China enjoys every year um that is every year China produces a new country that is the size of Switzerland >> or Saudi Arabia. >> So that is enormous and last year trade surplus was 1.2 trillion. that is um absolutely enormous. So I understand this but perhaps let me try to reframe it and also how in a way China looks at this and then we can talk about how China decide to make this more sustainable. I have analogy um that when we think about Chinese manufacturing think about China is a shop that sells ice creams. Okay. Imagine vanilla ice creams. And as you said, China feels like is so good. Let me try to do the President Trump way. Is so good. >> Oh, there you go. >> And so cheap. [snorts] And that you buy so much out of China and you get fat. And then you complain it to China. And you say it's China's fault that you're becoming so fat. And China's like, "Wait a second. You have every right not to buy us. You buy it not because we force it on you, but because we're so good and so cheap. So who is the one to blame here? So when we talk about trade surpluses, deficits, there's part of China feels a bit vulnerable in the sense that we would love to buy more from you, but what do you have to sell it to us? I'm looking at certain interviewees about your >> but but we're back with trade wars that so governments could say okay it is great goods from China but we're getting fat to use your analogy we'll put up we'll put up trade barriers isn't that the inevitable >> and some people might say that yes and no we need get to get more time to be as fit as you are uh >> that would be a healthier way so protections are for the weak rather than say, um, I'm going to not buy your ice creams. You can also say, I'm going to produce better ice creams that are tastier and cheaper. So, that would be the other way around. As always, as trained economists, as sensible as we are, we know that tariffs are bad. Um, protections are for the weak. So, that's something I want to argue. But then to um to go back to your question about how sustainable this is in fact China itself realizes that this is not sustainable and there are different China like so when we talk about you China what is that you is it the government is it the business is it the Chinese people the answers are completely different on this for all of these all of the above whether the government or the business or the Chinese people we know that it's not sustainable for instance when you look at the much younger people um there's this phenomena called lying flat that >> they ting um that the younger uh that the young generation believe that it's much more important to be happy rather than work hard and make money. But I'm from the generation where when I grow up we had very little food. I couldn't have like meat in my dumplings only at Chinese New Year, right? So it's a completely different kind of mentality. So when you are a lot more well off then you don't bother to work as hard anymore. That is part of the reason why this is not going to be sustainable because the younger generation will be different. And then on top of it is that the business realized that this is not sustainable. Um when we visit some of the Chinese companies in different um you know cities and regions we see that uh right after co they were extra working hard even if they were losing money and I asked them why is that because there are two different concepts of cost there is the average and fixed cost there is the marginal cost. So if they have invested all this machinery and everything even if the marginal cost so long the money they make is higher than the marginal cost they are happy to continue to do that. The the simple answer they said to me is I know I'm losing money but if I don't I would lose out even more money. So that's why they were doing it. But already, especially since last year, we're seeing that this so-called involution nan the like extra competitiveness among Chinese companies themselves are starting to change. So the business realized themselves that this is not sustainable. >> So they're changing that organically without the interference with the government or with people or from the rest of the world. And Chinese government also realizes this. I mean that's why as you said you know the prime minister mentioned that that the China shock is the wrong way to put it that the China opportunity is really the right way to put it the government has all this pressure from Europe from you know Latin America etc they want China to buy more to reduce that trade deficit and China will look to do that and for instance one of that would be service account right because typically when we talk about trade surplus we just think about goods uh per se but um depending how you want to play around the numbers for the argument if anything the service account uh trade deficit that China runs it almost increased by seven times in the last 5 years time. So it depends how um we frame this. >> I just wanted to mention the straight of horm's effect um on China. I' interested to hear Ravi as well the impact that's had in Southeast Asia where where you're based. [snorts] What impact has it had on China? because I've spoken to several Chinese people who've said actually we've been pretty insulated from it because of electrification of our cars and the fact we're producing so much renewable energy here. How do you see it and do you think there's it's a game changer? Will it change anything in terms of the bigger picture on anything in China? >> Economically it hasn't impacted China that much. um is more on the political and geopolitical front. Less than 50% of China's import of oil go through the strait whether is import from Iran, Iraq, Saudi etc. So um that is quite a bit of share but on the other hand oil is only about 6% or 7% of ch total China energy use. So the impact that has brought directly on China is much less compared to for instance Europe, right? And then on top of that, China has an oil storage about seven months or so. So this really like if you ask citizens on the street, ask a random person, they they feel a bit not so much. But more importantly is the idea that this is changing and giving the world a different perspective of the current Trump administration and how is really disrupting and shaking people's faith and uh in the US leadership of the world and that China is watching it more um enthusiastically. Since you spoke about US leadership, how much of a watershed has this year 2026 been in global affairs? You saw a a very uh I don't want to say timid, but a very respectful, polite Donald Trump show up in Beijing. How much has the world changed for China in this year? So from the US geopolitical perspective um yes so much has changed. I mean you know we start the year by seeing um US taking um President Maduro from Venezuela and then you know uh President Trump keep on insisting and be even more assertive on Greenland for instance right and then we had Iran um and then we had President Trump visiting um China. So to China somewhat this year was more about watching US destroying itself and its allies globally. You're absolutely right that President Trump u visited China and he called presidenc a great leader incredible China and all of that but China is not naive in the sense that it believes this will be how the bilateral relationship going forward. Um the very reason why President Trump turned um it stand and style with China is because China showed the rare earth card and President Trump is someone that believes in the games of power >> and China showed his hand and that was very critical. So the fact that the two countries are um smiling at each other and shaking hands certainly do not mean that this will be the great relationship, you know, romantic honeymoon going forward. But at least before the midterm, um the bilateral relationship would be very stable, >> right? >> And depending on how the midterm goes, um President Trump may adopt a different strategy on China or maybe not. So for instance um Russia, Ukraine, Israel, Palestine, Iran, all of these is distracting um the US um from its priority on China. It's just got its hands so full at the moment. It's got no attention or ability really in a way at least trade- wise to take um on China. But that is just trade for instance. The bilateral relationship goes so much more beyond just trade. There's technology rivalry, there's um military security rivalry and there is financial rivalry. So I believe the ongoing frictions between US China will be one of the key defining themes in the world. >> So it's not ended. The story that story is not ended. >> Oh no, this is just the beginning of the >> just the beginning. And do you think in about 5 years from now when the Americans fix their vulnerability on rare earths that fear of China will certainly go away? >> To start with there is no way that US will be able to catch up with China's uh level of dominance on rare earth. >> Is that so? um in 5 years in 5 years because you talk about 5 years when we talk about the dominance in rare earth there is the access to the resources itself and there is also the capacity to produce and process them so China has the absolute dominant power on both side right so US will not be able to replace China for at least another >> and Europe everywhere yeah so so that's why people are concerned about you know interdependence of supply chains and all of that But on rare earth, can I just say it's actually very important to know that China didn't want to play the rare earth card. So, you know, Europe is quite concerned about China continue to use this. Let me emphasize again that China does China did not want to play the rare earth card. If it wanted to, it would have played this long time ago. In fact, it's almost a public knowledge. Everybody knows about it. So the question should really be people know that China has access and dominance of this. Why did they not think China can do? Because China never played this car. Um chairman Don Xiaoing said decades ago that the Middle East has oil and China has rare earth. This is no secret. China could have played this. China could have played this 40 years ago. China could have played this in the first Trump administration. It did not. China could have played immediately immediately on liberation day. China did not. China played the rare earth card when the back and forth of the tariffs war negotiations between the two country were just dragging on and on and back and forth and almost with higher than expected or wouldliked kind of risks. That was when China decided enough is enough like no is no. That is when China played the card. China never wanted to because look at this one of the consequences Europe and many other regions got scared and say we're worried that China might want to play it on China does not if anything China is still as prime minister uh Liang called this morning China still wants a very stable global economy and China is still very committed and wants a good globalization and economic globalization because China benefits from that so China doesn't want any trade wars whatsoever >> right do you China has a similar dominance in active pharmaceutical ingredients APIs as they have in rare. >> I'm not an expert on that specific industries. Um but my limited knowledge is that is not um but is certainly getting more power than before. I mean one of my favorite example is that um we we have the there's this Chinese company who the founder was uh I forgot Harvard or MIT educated so she set up the company in Boston a brilliant hub for biio medicine related but especially during co time so she came back and over time she took the team back with her so now their headquarters in China with all the R&D centers in China and only the sales and marketing teams in the US because they know the language which they know how to sell. And this is a great example of telling us cuz when people think about Chinese manufacturers, a few years ago it was about EV and then it was AI, deepseek and now we're looking at robotics. The next is very likely to be biotech. >> I did want to ask you about um the gender gap. The World Economic Forum produces every year the uh global gender gap report. I know it's something you've taken a great interest in. You mentioned your book on the subject has become so successful. what's happened to it? >> Yes. So, I wrote a book on gender economics in Mandarin at the moment. Um, it got so popular that there are pirated copies now, >> right? People are clamoring for it >> because the rise of female power is, you know, I talk about the rise of China is one of the key defining themes of the century and the rise of female powers is another one. >> How do you tell companies or governments that it's in their interest to address the gender gap? >> Well, because it's good for the women and the men and the children and the economy. So let me take one example. So there's studies looking at the world in the past 46 years and basically if you put a dollar on investment on the US bonds and stock market your annual return was 2.4%. But if you invest that in people's education every additional year of uh education the average return is about 8.8%. That means investing into human capital gives you a lot higher yield than financial capital. And within this 8.8% the returns to women education is 10%. Which means that it's guaranteed that when you invest more in women, the women make more. On top of that, there's a study in the US showing that when the wife's education grows by an additional year, the husband makes an additional somewhere between 18% to 23%. So that's great for the men as well. And on top of that, we see that when the women are better educated, the kids are taller, um they're healthier, they have better performance at school. So that's good for um the next generation as well. And then on top of that, it's actually very good for the economic growth. So for instance, according to UN women um they have um a finding suggesting that when we invest more in women, that can significantly increase the global GDP by about 4 trillion US dollars by 2030. And that is more than 3% of the current GDP that we have. So that's why I say educating the women is great for everybody. For women, for the men, for the kids, and for the society and the economy. >> Right. But Chun, you were born in Shanong, right? >> Yes. >> And that is known to be a fairly traditional Chinese society in Shanong if I'm not mistaken. Did you get lucky? Where did you get your fantastic education in Europe? >> How did you manage to do it? Were your parents uh far-sighted or uh they just wanted you to have the best? >> Um yes. So I was born in Tinga in Shandong where Confucious came from. It's very traditional. So even nowadays in certain part of Shandong um women are not allowed to dine at the same table with men and that whenever we go out you're supposed to give men the face, let them talk more. Let them take the lead. you know, you smile and collapse when they do the talk. Um, so that was one side of me. And then I had the opportunity to study in Sweden, um, one of the most gender equal country in the world, and also at UC Berkeley, the most sort of progressive, um, university. So I got very lucky in that I saw that gender equality can be very different and that they are possible. So one of my PhD thesis well the majority of them were about labor economics even though later I dived into you know macroeconomics uh geopolitical economics d one of my PhD thesis was about labor economics human capital D and one of that was to study is it true that when women are better educated we have a lower marriage rate >> because back then um there was a saying in China that there are three kinds of people in the world. A man and a woman and a woman who has a PhD and I was getting my PhD and there were another saying that there are four kinds of people in the world. A man, a woman, a woman who has a PhD and a man who dares to marry the third type. So I wanted to prove them wrong. So that's how like gradually over time apart from my day-to-day work on geopolitics um advising the world on China and Chinese companies going overseas um I've spent the past uh more than a decade writing along the topic of gender economics and I'm very lucky because my parents believe in the power of education and they um let me took my PhD. Do you think there might be a future book from you called a man's place is in the home? >> Um I like the idea but um I want to rephrase it to a man's place is wherever he wishes because when we talk about gender equality the idea is not to sort of let women become the more senior um species in gender than men. We want equality and the idea of equality is not that women should work and men should stay home but um women can work um if she chooses so and man can stay at home if he chooses so. So ultimately I believe the definition of gender equality is not about the same results but that we have the same access and same opportunity. So men can cry, men can wear pink. Um however you know you can play Barbie dolls. Um we can also become super men's as well. >> I'm wearing pink. Did you see that? Did [laughter] you see her? I'm still blue. I think I change to pink one of these days. Lovely. Thank you very much. >> And I did not mean as a object objectifying you. >> At least I've not cried during this interview. We have to bring it to a close there. That's all we've got time for. Ravi, it's been great to co-host this with you. If your listeners, if your audience want to follow Radio Davos, they can find us on any podcast app. They can also go to web.chodcast or you'll find we have three weekly podcasts. This one, Radio Davos, meet the leader and agenda dialogues. [music] Ravi, where can we find you? Robin, that's been a fantastic conversation and thank you Chen for a brilliant uh presentation. We didn't talk enough of concubines yet, but maybe we'll keep that for the next uh session. This is Ravi Velour for the Straits Times Asian Insider podcast. >> That a [music] great pleasure. Thank you for having me today. >> Thank you.