Today's Technology - Net Negative - Trent Larson

How much time do I spend on technology every day versus, you know, directly talking with people. >> Do you guys think religion is also a technology? I I sometimes characterize it that way. Let's talk about >> [snorts] >> government as well, cuz that's what I call the algorithm. >> My mind's going to be racing all night because of everything. >> Stephen Grow. Um, those are the good kinds of things that are transcendental, those sorts of kinds of things that are most rewarding in life and they often show up between people. And um, devices [clears throat] can enable some of that, but there's a huge cost to them. What brings us together is the things that we achieve together, things that we actually work on together, the things that we uh, participate in that define you know, how we socialize. Um, and it's it's not handed down to us, it's not rules that um, are are just given by uh, those of on high. I'm I'm going to say some things later about government where I don't have a lot of faith in some of the governance institutions we have. One of my best friends, Justin, says, "Hey, uh, the most efficient form of government is a uh, dictatorship." And he's absolutely right. Yeah, if you want efficiency, that's what you go to, but I don't think that's what we want in our lives and that's not what gets us to those transcendent values. So, tech, great. It's given us some great things. Um, you know, knowledge, science that we can get on YouTube and Khan Academy and learn things so quickly and now with ChatGPT and robots, they're actually marvelous teaching us things. It's it's fantastic. And I'll scale, you know, never who seen before and the connections [clears throat] that we have. So, I can call my mom tonight. She's in Kansas City and I better remember to do that. Most of the forget some Sundays. But they're not the long-running relationships. They're not the long-running connections that we have. And so, okay. So far, tech has got some good things, but where have the benefits of technology gone? The massive the majority of the benefits of tech have gone to organizations. They haven't gone directly to these connections that we have. TikTok, you know, the algorithms, the engagement, the ad spend. Those are the things that have gotten the most traction. And that's what tech pulls us towards. So, it hasn't been towards a spiritual ends. And [clears throat] you know, um our work the work that I do in technology, it supports some of these mechanisms like my latest work was in county recorders where we deal with land rights. And people want to know that if they own a land or a property, that they can work on it. We did some of that work in Rwanda. And there was a huge interest because they're very insecure in their rights there. But our technology didn't solve those. It's mostly all of the social problems around it. That is the biggest part of the work. The technology just recording it and having somebody stamp it isn't the solution. So, um you know, it could be different, but that's just the way that the world is right now. So, um we'll certainly organizations that that dictate the meaning that that you know, supports our our jobs, our salaries, that that pays us money. And we give our attention to these things. >> [clears throat] >> Um there's always the argument that AI will save us from this. Um the Okay, I'm hearing laughs, so this is good because, you know, hearing that argument um that it's, you know, going to all of this knowledge is somehow going to reward us, you know, there's still incentives on running those algorithms and who gets to, you know, manage the token spend that goes to what purposes. And or, you know, that is still something that's managed by people in the end. And so, that alone is not going to save us. Let's talk about government as well because that's what I call the algorithms. That's, you know, walls that are enshrined and so police will come and enforce the rules that were set up and those were supposed to be for our good, right? For peace. Um we've had some great benefits, you know, we never would have had nuclear power without large S of the government applying to that. And same thing for space exploration. But you know, this last century was the century of democide. I'd argue that the large governments, I mean, this is just one factor, but it's hundreds of millions of people that were killed by their own governments. This isn't warring neighbors. This isn't civil wars even. This is the government actively oppressed and murdered and, you know, some of them were due to famine induced and then things like that. Um you know, can you imagine just that much death that is caused by these institutions? And on top of that, the oppression that would happen at the same time, you know, how many people had to live lives segregated and and coerced and and, you know, how much creativity did that squash? Hundreds of millions of people. Um so I I haven't read this book. I want to the Utopia of Rules, Technology Stupidity and the Secret Joys of Bureaucracy. I feel like we might be caught in that, especially in America. There's all the cry for legislation to solve problems. Now, you know, there's all alternative ways that we could be doing things. It's going to be harder and harder as say governments give more and more uh control, especially over our digital lives. Um it used to be that we had common law in England. That's how things started out in small communities, small governments. When there was a dispute, then something was decided and then that became precedent that you could judge against for future decisions. Eventually, it got twisted. The king and the court used to just oversee the uh ways that they did it to make sure they followed, you know, good standards rules, but it got flipped to where now they were deciding the rules. Rules were actually made by fiat. So, that's where we come up with statutory law. And now that's what the world we live in. Legislators create laws because they're trying to solve problems rather than hey, we have disputes and here's the precedent for previous disputes where we resolve it. Um that may mean that we don't have you know, we're not not keeping children safe in some ways, you know, that may mean we're not um guarding against every possible traffic infraction, you know, where there's certain things safety that we don't get if we actually go by common law, but there's other alternative ways. For example, indigenous peoples had different ways of governing that we could learn from. Part of the problem is that we beg for this ourselves. Um we think of retirement and it's just okay, how much do we have to save to get there? Rather than hey, what kind of family are we building so that we have that support when we get older? Um and it's you know, of course along the way we rack up debt. We've got to pay off that debt. Um but banks are more than happy to get us into that. Um Another part is we've heard of stakeholder capitalism recently where hey, okay, the government's going to take parts of companies and then that will trickle down to us, you know, with the benefits of those. Um that in my mind that just enables some more cronyism and that will all and you know, how much do we actually get in the end? Um It also I feel like it empowers the corporate power. So for example, BlackRock is buying all kinds of land and homes in areas. You know, that of course affects prices and things, but it's also you know, who as a neighbor, who do you work with when you want? I I have friends who've built roads between their houses. It's like who do you talk with if you wanted to build a road or you wanted to solve problem in your cul-de-sac? And they are remote. Uh you you want to be able to work with your neighbors and anyway, there's a problem if they own so much of the uh so much property. Aladdin is the name of their algorithm. Um >> [clears throat] [laughter] >> So you know, this may just be the way the world is. You know, my friend Robbie says, you know I I like your revision of what things could be, but you know what? We ended up with the world we have because we had indigenous people here and they were beat. Um it's just nowadays those with the bigger guns they get society the way they want it to be. So, you know, they support the bankers and the merchants, and that's who's going to win. So, um I hope not. Uh I will read this just in case you can't see it all. He's saying that giving a story around a campfire saying, "Yes, the planet got destroyed, but for a beautiful moment in time, we created a lot of value for stakeholders for shareholders and all of us." May just be the way the world's going, and we just have to be as judicious as we can with our families and our friends and loved ones and people here in uh uh uh good communities. Um I've [clears throat] got a little bit of tangent here because this is the Mormon Transhumanist Association, and it sounds like you're using the word transfigurism now, which >> we um we but is the name, but that's just like the domain name. I mean >> The domain name, right right right. >> Transfigurism is uh was always this thing that was like um something we wanted to input like to promote, but it was like we knew it was aspirational. Um Yeah. Yeah, anyway, go ahead. >> So, um I can't wait to talk afterwards because I mean, trans is beyond. It's It's so what? Beyond humanism. So, does that mean it's posthumanism? I mean, enhancement seems like an okay idea, but um when it comes to, you know, if we're going to get beyond that, what does that mean? You know, is it an organism that we have created we understand it or >> [clears throat] >> created and we don't understand it, and there's problems either way with that. So, anyway, that will Yeah, I'm sure come out in the discussion. Um Okay, technologists love peer-to-peer technologies. These are, you know, directly interacting uh technologies. We've got blockchain with Bitcoin and Monero, and then we've got mesh-tastic networks with low-power radio signals that we can connect directly between each other, and I've always loved that. But, um and I'll just mention my biggest project is gifteconomy.org where I'm trying to create more and more interactions that are gift and actually create a actual sustainable living based on those. I think that would be fun, but maybe that's still a technology that's getting in between people and I may be totally wrong on that and this may be a digression and thanks, you know, to Carl who wrote that an insightful comment here where he said that I had him install it and he said, "Okay, yeah, but the work of tracking and curating contributions could get kind of tedious." Exactly, that's the kind of interaction you don't want. >> mean to critical in any way. >> Now you say >> That's a quote, isn't it? >> Let the record show. >> Right. So, I got to admit this is about me. Uh this is my experience in the industry. I live in tech. I have spent my my my time making tech problems work um and planning with others to make it work and and planning to to solve things just with tech and, you know, that empowers other organizations, it empowers systems. I haven't seen how it empowers people and and that's why I'm giving this talk. So, for me part of the solution has been trying to right-size the time that I spend. Um how much time do I spend on technology every day versus, you know, directly talking with people. Uh so, how much how that is on the technical problems versus the people problems, problems people have directly with one another and um you know, in their lives just empowering each other. And then are the technical solutions real or do they, you know, give more power to someone like the banks. Um Sorry, I don't mean to call them out. It's just yeah, I don't have a lot of respect for today's banks. Um okay, so that's how I try and uh ask myself the right questions and this is my goal to spend as much time directly with people even though I work in technology. I can't leave it to my product managers to be the ones that are talking to my customers. You know, I have I should be involved in talking to humans and to making the solutions and hopefully I'll right-size that in real life. So, so happy to have this discussion rather than just a talk because I I can't wait to hear what you people's impressions and um you know, gain real understanding of what is progress, you know, and maybe there may not be any way to measure it. Um it's just something we we always have to feel, but um I'm I'm open to other uh opinions. So, I'm happy. Yeah, go ahead and any questions or comments or any discussion points. You ready? Go. >> Yeah, so um I guess I'll kick it off by saying uh your question about transhumanism is a good one and um it's often one of the first ones that we get. Um and I think that it's a debate that's even been had amongst transhumanists is like um one of the things on our website that in our introductory um essays about what we believe in um that we talk about is that we would we've kind of downplayed the use of the term posthuman. Uh some transhumanists have used that term to talk about whatever state we're in way down the future. So So the idea being like if you think about um the way we are now compared to let's say the way our pre-human ancestors were, um it's different enough that we think of humanity as a a different species altogether. And so when transhumanists [clears throat] use that term post-human, they're thinking of a state that's so much so different from what we are now that it merits being called something else. However, we sort of feel like the term post-human could have a dehumanizing uh overtone to it where it's like what kind of post-human are are you talking about? It could be something um someone could imagine that to be a state that is um deficient in some way or lack something really valuable that we valued in being human. So we've used we started using the terms term superhuman to talk about that state or super-humanity. >> [clears throat] >> Um now there still are dangers in using that term because some people when they hear that term imagine some solitary superhero who's like taking over and and fixing everything, right? Which is more like a dictator than like a collective uh transcendent humanity, right? So um so getting the feel or the vibe right is hard and um but that that is what we've uh tried to do in the work that we're doing and especially we've used uh Christ as kind of the ideal human. And the interesting thing about that metaphor is that the Christian world also has a collective metaphor for Christ, right? When Paul talked about the body of Christ and how every every member of that body has a purpose and a and a function. Um so, it doesn't have to be just an individual. You could you could aspire to be being more Christ-like as an individual, but you could also do it as a community, you know, so. Um so, that you know, those are that's my short version of like the kind of transhumanism we're going. >> Right. >> Yes. >> So. >> As that going according to Carl Jung. >> Right. So, I mean, if you guys disagree like chime in, you know, like >> I remember at one of their shows is David Pearce went there and I went to Singularity Summit 2011. It's the only one I've been to, so I don't know how representative it is, but it was a gathering of many transhumanists and the theme of the year was to like emphasizing humanism as it as like kind of humanism being encompasses transhumanism. Like it is a very human thing to use to think about how hopefully advising you to better yourselves and to use technology in uh to that end. And um yeah, I think I've sometimes heard posthuman as just uh not even necessarily an aspirational thing, but as a you could What are What are all of the places that are reachable >> Yeah. >> whether or not it's advisable starting from the point of human. One way that you can reach this state is by stripping parts of your humanity away. So, are we going to do that? >> But this is actually a really good point because um we are already transhumans in the sense that to be human is to is to have your reach exceed your grasp. Right, to be human is to try to fix things that you don't like. Um and also uh if we look at the core technologies of humanity, which I always go back to cooking and clothing, like uh there was a time when humans didn't wear clothes and when they didn't cook their food, or maybe you could call those prehumans, but like for all intents and purposes, to be human is to wear clothing. Like nobody walks around uh for the most part naked all the time, you know, and um and our brains actually evolved and adapted to cooking. And so, um we're not static a static species. We're actually always in a state of changing things. >> Mhm. >> And that's kind of part of what it means to be to be human. >> I have a question about your presentation. You talked a lot about how like, you know, technology has spiritually hurt us. In your imagination, is there a possibility space in which it has enhanced us spiritually? >> I don't know. I haven't seen much of that. >> Really? >> I You know, there are people that have, you know, apps and and things that um um you know, try and connect. I I love to read poetry online and there's so there's there's little, you know, little >> Cuz you read poetry without the invention of writing. >> Yeah, we have to decide about technology. >> Which reading is that? >> True. Like, so we We really would have >> We go deep on what tech >> Yeah. >> Ah, yeah, yeah. No, that's great. >> We're not just thinking of like iPhones and >> Yeah. >> Chrome and like souped-up cars. We're thinking of like the full gamut of what tech is. >> Absolutely. >> Pants and democracy and all of that. >> Say that again? >> Pants. >> Pants and democracy. >> Democracy needs >> [laughter] >> Right. So, okay, writing, let's go back to that basic one. Um did we gain anything spiritually from being able to >> I think so. >> write? And and so, the communication we had before that, verbal, you know, and It's funny how we might be getting back to verbal now interactions. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Um but did, you know, we we can share Okay, we can share poetry and and that can be inspiring. Um so, let's see. That that is a good counterargument. I'm and to thinking about that one. >> I should So, the another interesting thing is we have this scripture that says, "In the beginning was the word, right?" It also implies that like something about writing was like uh godlier or whatever. >> I don't know. Like and that would be speech. I mean, speech language. >> Yeah, that's a good >> Yeah, that's true. It could be just speech. Yeah. >> So, that that would support I would say yeah, it definitely supports us in um being able to to to to evoke our spirituality that's already there. Um does it really build anything that wasn't already there? Does it Does it, you know, does writing give someone who wasn't didn't have that spiritual aspect, you know, something new? And I don't know whether it does. I I feel like if you had those sensibilities, you know, and you didn't have writing, you know, you would find that very rewarding in other ways. So, um that is that's not a great argument back. So, I'm going to keep thinking about that. >> So, it may not It sounds like it's more of an enhancement than something changes. So, um for someone who's a poet, in order for them to enhance their spirituality, the tool of language itself then becomes the expression of that thing. So, without the tool, you can't have the expression. So, similar with like maybe the I don't know. You You said writing. The church has a website. So, the church has a website to to contact people and use technology and things to in find enhance. So, did that mean like all of a sudden the church became more spiritual with the internet? I don't know. Maybe, but it definitely did become more powerful. >> It became more influential. >> Yeah. So, what >> Yeah, spread the knowledge, spread the Yeah. >> Exactly. >> That I can see. >> So, I think there's I think there is a possibility because it definitely can't spiritually hurt us, absolutely. But, there's a possibility space in which it actually enhances. I don't know. Imagine using like a chatbot to prepare your spiritual lessons for your Sunday school lesson in the school or whatever. >> But, wouldn't that already come from you know, your um you're making it happen because you've got that spiritual hunger inside you that that's doing it. And it it it maybe enhances it and it allows you to um generate more content, for sure. Maybe generate more interesting pictures. >> More sloth, too. >> Yeah. But, does it bring out more of the the spirituality? I I feel like the language, the speech, you've got me on that one cuz that that is a core thing that we can now I like forgiveness. You know. Or or connection between me and my wife and sharing goals. Those those affection totally elevate our spiritual connection. Um that's a good counterargument. I don't know if that I see it in today's internet. >> I see I really like in your uh gifteconomy.org Actually, one of the paragraphs here you say, "We're growing a digital platform that helps people connect locally, share resources, and support one another directly without middle men or gatekeepers. Whether it's sharing a meal, lending a skill, or helping a neighbor, this tool will make generosity easier, safer, and more visible. It's technology is designed not to take your attention, but to give it back to your community." And something that stands out on your own website is this idea that these tools make it easier, safer, and more visible. I know for me, I feel like I can grow spiritually the most when I'm safe, when I feel safe. And uh I feel like >> [clears throat] >> my ego doesn't want to be in a self-preservation mode. And then it can just feel very um Yeah, it just feels like really safe and so I think it's cool that even your own website here is like saying something that's like it's a way to spiritually enhance us in my opinion. So >> Interesting. >> Yeah, kind of building off of that comment on the last sorry, did you raise your hand? >> Yeah, I'm going to >> Okay, raise your hand you can >> I'm going to do it later. >> Um but just segwaying in a little reverse order. Uh the feeling safe as a prerequisite, someone can shout out which uh prophet it was that talked about their mission experience of giving a tract to women who took it last this is going to help me probably greatly handle that. Um you can't and you you can't you can't you can't blame people for not being spiritual when they're dying. So yeah, like anything that enhances those things and spirituality affirming um to jump back is it 1600 years farther from that we've got this is pure religion or this is true piety? Uh and then the translation to care for the widow and the orphan. Um the other so first question is uh I I I missed it again. Did we talk about like good definition spaces spirituality and whether like loving and forgiving people is the most important thing about religion as some of that more heretical uh early Christian writers would say um or and then segwaying out of that, second question, mutual aid mutual aid organizations that are an extremely important technology for actually in the society we're in getting food to people. >> [clears throat] >> Um >> Yeah, I think that's a good point. >> you I have a then as your >> The real quick on that one like don't put too many out at once cuz we won't be able to answer them all. >> But I tried to specify. >> But I like this like first thing like the one you mentioned of visiting the widow and the fatherless. I bet if you look at what you're doing in those activities, you're using tech. >> Oh, yes. >> to feed that. And then also I think your point about mutual aid societies is really good because like we don't often think of some other inventions like religion corporations, commerce, trade all sorts of human organization, human ways of organizing themselves as tech but really it is technology. It's like >> Like hospitality expectations is a technology and it made human like insane travel for extremely early humans possible. >> Yes. >> Yeah, yeah. Absolutely everybody in my language group I know what to expect when they show up on their doorstep. >> Yeah. >> And that was incredibly beneficial to us. So yeah. >> Do you guys think religion is also a technology? I I sometimes characterize it that way. Um >> So his third question is religion is a technology. >> I would have said no. I want to keep hearing what you have to say. >> Yeah, what I'm thinking of is that um if you there there may be a time when you go back far enough to where whatever it was and by the way whenever he starts driving you crazy I can take him out and then I can put him outside. He's just a little too affectionate. >> He's a little too friendly. >> Anyway, uh I I do think that there may have been a time when humans didn't organize themselves the way they do and didn't have these elaborate rituals and these ways of engaging with each other in what we think of as religion today. And I do think those are like social accumulations, kind of like developments that took place over time. And so um if you think of technology as applied knowledge, which is one of the core definitions of technology, it's sort of um you could say that the knowledge of like how to ritualize or these practices and beliefs in a way that allows them to be sustained by larger bodies of people, that could be thought of as a type of social technology. >> Kind of analogous to writing code, right? [clears throat] Like the code is not the hard wires that it's running on, but it's >> It is dynamic. >> Yeah, it's applied knowledge that is then able to be distributed in a way that's understood and then and can connect people all over. >> Yeah. >> The So, the two questions were um like defining defining spirituality. Defining spirituality as maybe just caring for those widow and the fatherless. >> And what defines spirituality? >> Yeah, like like what what definition are you working with for spirituality when we say technology and algorithms are depreciating or spirituality or enhancing it? What is spirituality in your eyes? And the second one was have you talked to mutual aid societies? >> Yeah, you talked with mutual aid or like what you may think about like what you time bank stuff and what your priorities and the gift economy stuff cuz I also didn't learn about that because I was starting to lose track of the questions. >> [laughter] >> There's a lot of stuff outside. >> So, I'll >> Just get on the car. So, that's our excuse. >> Right. Uh I'm trying to remember all of these. Oh, religion, yeah. Uh cuz I'm going to forget. All right. Uh so, I'm going to start with the last one first with the mutual aid societies. Love, I mean, that is uh somebody getting together and if you want to call that a technology, yeah, I I guess that was outside of my thinking what a technology is. We we get together, we, you know, may have an way we organize, but that's the key part of that is is coming together meeting and doing. A lot of today's Uh, benefit organizations are for part of things we delegate. We pay the Battle Food Pantry. They do a great job, but it's been shown that they haven't really reduced the rate of poverty. And the ones that like time banking is a great idea. I've I've enjoyed some of those stories Berkshire's and and whatever, but they're still focused on this technology of trade and exact accounting, which is I think the safety part is a good argument and I'm still wrestling with that one, but I don't think that I don't know how the the technology save money or the the mutual aid automatically builds anything with spirituality. In fact, I think it does serve to pull us apart if we're not I'm careful. >> What about the argument that um like money enables more it facilitates an exchange of value and so therefore it produces greater prosperity generally speaking and a modicum of prosperity is necessary for us to meet the baseline of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And like it was said earlier, like you're not going to be wanting to hear much about the gospel if you're starving to death. >> That's what I'm still wrestling with that safety one. So I we've got speech that's that's a very very good example. We've got the >> [clears throat] >> safe so I When you brought that out, uh you felt like that there might be tech or internet that has built your sense of safety? >> Yeah, I guess especially the first part of the paragraph I >> Oh, so wait. Yeah, my words yeah. I I said a lot of them there. But do you have you seen examples of of how that has helped like you have been helped in your safety from tech and internet? >> Yeah, um I have my husband to think about who I really am. >> What? >> Yeah, like all the time. >> I need a specific example. >> I can I can literally tell my girls if I'm going somewhere that I don't feel safe at and we automatically build a community with the technology. We have apps for it. >> Right, cuz you can follow each other. >> Yeah, safe. >> Always check >> You can say I'm walking home now. If you don't hear from me in >> Yeah. >> And you can say I'm walking home with which you can do with stranger mode. I women I've never met and be like I am in this location. >> Wow, okay. >> So there's lots of safety there. >> Yeah, and so uh earlier one thing I thought of was like maybe somebody as far as it um enhancing your spiritual development like maybe somebody wants to talk to their pastor, bishop and like they don't feel comfortable approaching them after the sermon and like once websites were created for churches they find it very well to send like somebody an email to staff. And also um I I guess I'm curious your take on the fact that there used to be um like uh sexual assault crisis hotlines that you had to call in from. And so there used to be like one landline for the family. Most of the time someone's assaulted is family. Like and then it became like, "Okay, there are websites now and you don't have to worry someone's going to hear you in the next room because you have online." But um I did training for one of these uh for for the national one for rain, and I remember this was like '07 feeling like I didn't like graduate from there totally certain of how to talk through somebody how to block the text so like that could be a vulnerability where like somebody thinks they're in a safe environment, but like it's not really safe. Don't worry I didn't end up volunteering cuz I moved out of state and stuff, but like um the side of like getting anybody into a compromised situation, but um I don't know. Yeah, I'm curious to see your response. There's all that like the drama the the um you know, the the veneer of safety maybe where it's not life fully covered in. >> Sorry, I'll let you answer cuz um I I don't have an answer for that one. I'm just writing it down. You know, I'll do them. In fact, I want to before you go on, you mentioned two, you mentioned the mutual aid. >> I was just echoing that and then I had my own, but we haven't gotten to those yet. >> By the way, don't feel like you have to totally answer all this like >> [laughter] >> These are good criticisms that you know, I want to go away with and think about. >> This is really an exploration and one of the things I maybe should have mentioned is like we often disagree with each other about things like um and all we ask is that people engage respectfully, but like each person here may have slightly different opinions about stuff. So don't um feel like it's you know, everyone against just this or that. >> Yeah, no I get that. >> I'm offended that I'm going home any minute, but go ahead. >> I was going to I was also going >> I've changed my opinion a lot on this. >> Well, so Fran Fran so Fran so brought up something interesting which uh made me think about the Catholic church actually. Um their practice of confession is really interesting because it's a ritual that everyone is expected to perform regularly. I suppose supposed to go every week as far as I understand. Um so it's not something that anyone would think ill of you for going to the confession booth because it's like, "Oh, no, we're just doing what everyone else does, right?" And then once you're there, it's it's supposed to be totally confidential. And the priest is not supposed to even mention what's been said in there outside of that context, right? So, um, that's a really interesting approach, very low-tech, relatively low-tech, right? But interesting in that it um, I could we can obviously see some situations where it might be abused, but like in a lot of cases >> I think we have. >> Yeah, yeah. [clears throat] Yeah, yeah. Yeah. >> There's been evidence of abuse in the church. >> However, I would bet I would bet that there's also been lots of like positive examples coming from confession as well where but mostly I'm just pointing out that it's interesting because it's like a place where you can unburden yourself without anyone else having to be like shame you for it, right? >> And also with like, one thing I liked about the Christian world is like, it's not like, are you going for premarital counseling? It's like, to whose pastor? It's just assumed that like you get premarital counseling maybe before you're even engaged. And like, I think in the secular world it's sort of like pathologized if you do that. >> Right, right. Yeah. I think that's maybe fading a little bit. It used to be that if you were getting counseling you were getting a divorce. And now it's now I think it's much more common for people to seek out therapy with their spouse. >> I think along with us, so the the study on veterans in the military and they got therapists to come talk with them to try to figure out what their PTSD symptoms were so they can get them help and access. Because of their training if you're a marine with PTSD you can't say, "My symptom is I still wet the bed in PTSD whatever they're going through." And so they set them up with chatbots and said, "Talk to the chatbot. Don't talk to a human, talk to the chatbot. And [clears throat] they got more in-depth information about their PTSD symptoms through the chatbots than they did talking to real people. And they knew, they're like, "We're going to get this information and we're going to process it." But for a Marine who has been trained that certain things like nightmares are weak, you know, things like that, they can't even talk about their symptoms with a human, they went through the medium of the technology to get access to the care they actually needed. It saved their lives. >> Um I think we're kind of brainwashing ourselves that the technology is threatening us. It's kind of bringing us down. Look pretty good. Um And just in the like yeah, there's an app that helps you be safe on the streets, but the ways that people can stalk you have so exponentially increased by technology. >> Oh, stalk. You said stalk. Oh, I thought I said stalk. Okay. Yeah. >> Stalking, stalking, I don't know. Technology, arms racing. Yes, human standings. Okay, well, sexploitation online is now a big thing or scammers are calling grandma and for technological ineptitude and its uniqueness, what we do to like deal with these problems. And so I think for me like the question of like is technology good or bad is dumb. >> [laughter] >> Like are dogs good or bad? Like they might bite you, but they are man's best friend. Like there's this dual nature. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And with all like specifically deciding what aspects of technology we want to define or we want to discuss or what use is, like we're just going to go in circles and be like, "Oh, but fire can heat up your food, but it can burn you." Like >> That's >> I I think I appreciate that. I I thank you because it brings me back to a point. It can be used for good. Let's go back to speech. Yes, that enabled um all kinds of communication. You know, it may be poetry, maybe it's spiritual uplifting, but it also enabled all kinds of manipulation and all kinds of Oh, wait. Religion. Same thing. How many religions out there actually, you know, I would not trust with my spirituality. So, um overriding um uh uh push, I I feel like might I I still feel like like it might be negative. I'm I'm sorry to say there's reasons to go the other way, but um yeah, um there there's so much more that pulls us away. >> Yeah. Did you want to finish? >> Yeah, I think kind of what we're seeing with a lot of our examples, uh going back to what Blair said in the beginning, you know, um technology is the answer. >> It's the amplification of whatever. >> Of whatever. >> And it's a question of like, yeah, we can take what we start with our our control of essence and whatever and then put it through an algorithm and get something out and it can go more good or more bad. Um but like the question, I don't know, for me the idea of using a bot to like prepare something cool lesson or like be something spiritual, for me it feels like it it robs my own spiritual growth, my own opportunity to like wrestle with the things. Um at best it would empower my ability to like research inspirational material that I could like learn from and then add into my spiritual practice and something like that. So, it empowers me to maybe go through something a process faster, but it doesn't create like it doesn't change the process that I'm pursuing. Like if I want to if I want to say words that are pretty and make people be like, "Hallelujah." I can do that, but if I actually want those words to mean something to me, I still have to go through the words to I what it means spiritually and then living them and experiencing them yourself and naturally to me to some level I can I can like boost that with an algorithm but I can't shortcut it. >> Yeah, that's sitting by me here. I I think that'll be a lot more empowering for me. >> [laughter] >> Well, I I have a question about that and maybe maybe trying to lean more towards like is it more positive as like a question? Um one of my favorite books Factfulness, oh something he says in it is that the world is still bad but it's better than it's ever been before. And so if it is an amplification of us if technology is and we are safer than we've ever been before then to me that's like does wonders for trying to see that it might it's like probably at a net positive. At least it's definitely worth it to uphold that. It's like we can make it a net positive to to put in the work that is like I see those things and I see it like robbing a spirituality but I also like how I engage with it spiritually is I see people and and I see them say things or put communities together online directly, you know, get rid of the middle man. You meet people more directly online and and then I go, "Oh my gosh, I am going through the the same thing you are. I'm not alone." And then I feel safer that I'm not alone. And then I put work towards talking with those people and once I feel safe, I feel like I'm more open to ideas outside of what I currently believe. So it doesn't even feel like it's like enhancing my own echo chamber, my own algorithms. In a way it feels like it's that safety opens me up towards I'm trying to see different spiritual perspectives. And so honestly the way that I engage with like technology feels a world just like a net positive, because the world is bad, but it it's safer than it's ever been. >> And I have a feeling the most people in this group are yeah, tending towards the positive part. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> That is selection bias, right? >> Yeah, right. >> Yeah. In fact, like our logo right here, see that? Um, the wheel, the wagon wheel, symbolizes human ingenuity. And the wings are like divine aid. And so really what we're sort of promoting is this notion that we can use our ingenuity or whatever gifts we have, in fact, we think of those even as being like a part of the divine image, um, with God's help to kind of make the world a better place, you know. So [clears throat] >> And the sewing was done by a robot. >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> I love that. >> I hope you win, yeah. >> You're >> Yeah. Yeah, I'm on that on the other side. >> [clears throat] >> Going back to some of your content, I think that one of the things that should could resonate with the Mormon transhumanist audience with what you're saying is that in terms of the evidence you were presenting in and the negative impact, a lot of it was about the way that technologies has been used to centralize power within governments and within corporations. And um, the Mormon transhumanist vision of, you know, how these technologies should be used is is necessarily messianic, meaning um, concerned for the least of these and the oppressed. And um, I think the way your argument resonates the most is um, not necessarily in theoretical, but in the demand it [clears throat] creates for receipt that are not there. I mean, that I would argue are not there. And um, and that like um, the world is less is more unequal, con- power is concentrated more than it's ever been in our world's history and that's because of this technology and like you know the the commitment to the Mormon transhumanist vision of the world is an absolute ethical commitment to the decentralization of power [clears throat] and that's kind of like the opposite of what we've seen in the last 10 years or so. >> I don't necessarily disagree but I am curious about the ways that it's also empowered individuals, you know, like I I'm still thinking through whether or not it's been a net centralization of power or a net decentralization of power because if you think about like >> Well, that's some >> some types of tech like money for example is is possibly like decentralizing power in the sense that it uh each individual who has like they they have more >> autonomy distributed. >> Yeah. No, I agree. I agree but like they have like the autonomy to go and like procure things that maybe they used to have to rely on the manor lord to get, right? Or or like um I don't know um Right, but these little >> These little pressure valves are also part of the mechanism that helps the power become centralized and more too. >> So sure >> You can always point to little to little things like that but that's the big question is the macro question. I mean we we all should a covenant against the singleton which is like on the horizon, you know, so >> singularity. >> Well, I mean I'm just thinking about the ways that like individuals are empowered by technology as well. Like so like the fact that everyone has a device that they can communicate with anyone else in the world at at a moment's notice is like a form of of decentralization type empowerment, right? So >> Yeah. >> So maybe it's What I want to know is what is the covenant >> All the time, right? >> decentralization >> Well, no like >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like just today I made a phone call, right? >> I'm just saying that some of these things like because we have the technology and we're like great I can do this, but we have all these detractors whether and it's an a power imbalance that's like distracting us or it's incentivizing certain things then that takes some of that away from us. So like yeah, the internet is extremely democratic like Nepal used it to great efficacy to restructure their government, right? Yeah, like Discord. Other countries aren't doing that. We're still using like the electoral college that centralizes things. >> What did Nepal do? Sorry, I was curious. >> Um they used Discord to distribute like how to do I think that helped who is person in there to choose a new person and use Discord to >> [laughter] >> Discord was radically structured in Nepal to do things that were real serious Discord. >> They really had the the organizational structure and the mutual aid type structure and on the ground like to use that tool really effectively. But even though we have the same tools, we don't have the same like power, [laughter] we have no aligned ethics, no aligned aligned spiritual values. And I'm getting really frustrated that like I have all these tools in my own life but they are degrading my life because yeah, I have unlimited unlimited time, but do I know I scroll on TikTok? >> Mhm. >> Because that even though I'm empowered by using TikTok, right? I'm empowered by using TikTok because I can make videos about things that are important to me and I can learn more about the world. But I end up with these distractions that are enriching our relations instead of allowing me to communicate with the many people that I know in my life and what actions I take. >> Mhm. Is that all? >> Back in the day when it was a hot question whether it was really evil or illegal to bundle a browser with an OS. Mhm. Oh, man. >> That's been a while, yeah. >> Yeah, yeah. Like the last >> Or Netscape. >> That's it. >> So, some people haven't like raised their hand, but yeah. >> I'm spoken. Uh yeah, the final answer I think my perspective on it is I like that you brought up Maslow's hierarchy of needs already. So, I think she like as much as technology raises people out of the base level of red light the light food, shelter, as much as technology can get people out of that into self-actualization. I think that's a spiritual net positive. But, it doesn't necessitate that more technology means that that's happening. >> [clears throat] >> It's still just a tool. I look at it as a tool. I guess I don't know about your first slide about any morality. It is let's go on. I look at the technology and it's like whether or not it's really using it is kind of hitting us spiritually. I think if we're already past those base levels um it's a struggle if you're looking to help other people who are also at that level. But, if you're able to use the technology to lift others, then I think that would be again a spiritual net positive again. But, you're lifting others to where they can now have more spiritual experiences. And in that spiritual heaven. >> I mean, it sounds like a few of us think that way where it like basically technology is orthogonal to morality. And and so, it depends on what it's used because it is an augmenter and an intensifier and whatever. Um I'm happy to be after having just listened to a couple hour podcast with Tristan Harris um who's the founder of the What is it? Center for Humane Technology. He's the guy that did that documentary, The Social Dilemma. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And then now he's been involved with this one, the AI doc. >> Mhm. >> Um And so and he doesn't like the term doomer, but I kind of felt like, "Oh, this is good for me to get away from my MTA peeps and kind of listen to someone that's kind of a little more pessimistic on this." Although he calls himself a apocalyptimist. >> Mhm. >> So But anyway Yeah, right. But uh it basically made me like I thought he made a really good point um in talking about, "Yes, you know, you can use this for good and for bad, all kinds of technology, right?" And specifically talking about once we got to the internet and especially social media and now AI we're getting to a point where as he puts it, the number of bad outcomes are infinitely more they're just more options of ways this can go wrong than there are on ways that it can go right. Which doesn't mean that it couldn't be the best, most utopian future ever, but it's not going to do that by accident. And so the questions that you're asking here um were a lot of the same ones that they were kind of asking too that I think are I think that it becomes really incumbent upon anyone that is bullish on technology to say, "You don't just build it and they will come." Or you don't just do the approach that Sam Altman and every other AI person seems to be taking, which is "Well, if I don't do it, someone else will do it. Therefore, let's charge full steam ahead without worrying about about the brakes or the you know, I mean, maybe you get Anthropic occasionally saying something like "No, Mr. President, we don't want to hand you the ability to have AI >> But even that didn't >> make kill decisions." Right, they went to someone else. They they jumped them and said, "Go >> Well, not only that, but like has been basically coerced into >> Right. >> Right. So, like, it Yeah, so it fails on both fronts. And I think it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The other thing I'm kind of throwing in here So, it I'm talking about my own views, I feel like I'm bullish on technology as it's more primitive technology. Certainly, look at things like speech. You're like, yeah, there's there's the first example, too. You can say bad things, you can say good things, you can heal the world, you can hurt the world. I don't think anyone here says humanity would be better if we couldn't communicate. Right? Like, you know, we >> [laughter] >> But, people I I I would say that the people who didn't communicate are probably dead, though. >> Right. Right. >> people who had the power, the technology, whether it was communication, the ability to build alliances, the ability to do things, they're dead. >> Right. >> So, we can sit here and say, oh, it's spiritually hurting us, and that's fine. It probably is. I I agree with you to a certain extent. But, that's going to be the dead group. >> Right. The people that take the vow of silence, the people that that say, oh, our religion is great, but we have a vow of celibacy, they're not going to have a shaking You know, they're not >> argument to be bullish about technology, but recognize the power involved in it. It's instead of building a dam, like, start rerouting, start >> Yeah. >> new pathways, in which could this be spiritual? >> I think we had a comment from you for a long time. Did you >> Yeah, sure. Thank you. My name is Chris, by the way. I'm Middle Eastern. It's my second time here. >> So, what was your name? >> Chris. >> Chris. Okay. >> Um, what you said today in this discussion helped me with the decision that I had in my mind. Um, I do a lot of work with I guess I'd call them the disenfranchised. They're the most victimized by the banks, by every system, pharma, food, education system, prison industrial complex, all of that. Like they're just got the short end of all of it and they're just trying to live and get by and it's hard cuz they're compromised on so many levels. And I'm like in the guts of their messy lives helping them survive, learn skills. >> Is this part of your work, your job? >> Um no, just by personal endeavors. >> Okay. >> Um kind of through the church but without an official calling to serve the need. >> Mhm. >> Is there a film series? >> On the other side of that, I have a zillion ideas in my head of books, programs, podcasts, information that I think would make the world better. And I just realized and I always have this FOMO that when I'm over here helping this person just like get a job even though they're out of prison, they have felonies, and no one wants to hire them. And how do you explain that story? Even if you can get in front of a human who cares cuz it's all an algorithm, right? And you can't rent anywhere because BlackRock owns the houses and you just get dumped in the trash pile of the applications, right? So, I realized today I don't think the I think this is more on the level you were talking then like well is speech technology, but I don't think the world needs my book ideas and another podcast and another whatever with my good ideas. It needs more of me in doing that stuff. >> Action speaks louder than action. >> someone saying the feeding of the whatever it was that you said that sounded better but literally on the ground. The widow and the fatherless and like really really helping people instead of writing my brainy stuff. >> Yeah, one on one. >> I want to push back a little bit on this and say not that I disagree so much as that I think the idea that there is one course of action that would be more productive or more overall useful for humanity, it might be mistaken. This idea I think it might be more I don't know. I I feel like we even amongst this group here probably have many different callings and gifts and talents and >> I just said I have that in my brain. I was like oh when I'm doing this I was not right after one of the 20 books in my mind is realized like I don't know the world needs more of my >> For you you're saying this is like this is the better use of your time. Is that what you're saying? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. >> But if you want somebody to push back against I'll I'll line up Chris and say I think it'd be better if more people took that route rather than the you know >> Yeah, I mean I guess I guess what I'd say is like there are times though when someone because of their particular talents or gifts like has a voice a message for the world or whatever and it ends up influencing a much larger group of people because they have that gift or whatever. I don't >> And maybe my book comes later when I've worked with 10,000 people right and I get this picture of like what's really happening. So maybe it's just later. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Um there was a a master class by Melinda Gates um on philanthropy and doing doing good works like that and kind of breaking down this dichotomy even into more fragments like there are lots of ways that all of us can spend our time and I think that if you hyper fixate on one of them you're going to burn out, you're going to lose like you like you you just articulated maybe your book comes later after you've done something else. And um you know like we all have talents, we all have influence, we all have time and money and all that stuff to varying degrees and in different ways. And I think that if we if we use them mindfully and think about ways. Like for example, my time is usually best spent according to this Master Class um locally and my money is best spent out of where I am now cuz right here my dollar doesn't go as far as it does in poorer countries for example. And so um so like a lot of our donations go out of the country and a lot of our volunteer time goes locally. And so like that kind of thing like breaking up your time and and your thoughts and it kind of connects back into something that I I kind of pinned for for a while. My my thought is my my algorithm on Instagram for example has been kind of like consciously curated to be almost entirely positive environmentalism news because I feel like a lot of young people that I know are very very convinced that the world will end and so they are not applying to school or work, they're not pursuing relationships, they're having less sex, they're not doing living. They're they they are giving up. And so I felt about a year and a half two years ago called to like sharing the ideas that we can save the world. That yeah, climate change is real. It is a big problem and we can do things to fix it and there are people taking action. Like it it is a it is a problem that will that will get worse and it will suck and species will go extinct and people will die, but we will pull out of it and we can have a future still. The world is not going to burn entirely. You know, like that kind of thinking. And so like I feel as though I feel as though algorithms kind of depend on our feedback. And the idea of like technology kind of makes the world frictionless and it's so much easier now to enter an echo chamber or to, you know, like create a to create slop or to eat unhealthily or whatever. Like the the key I think is a little bit of intentional effort in the direction that we want to go. And so like if by default we mean something like when we are exhausted and stressed and we are just looking for a quick a quick dopamine hit or a quick sugar rush or whatever. Um then like I I just I I prefer to believe that humanity at its default is not at stress. And or rather I don't think that we should think of it that way. In the same way that I don't really like the idea of like the Buddhist principle that all life is Dukkha, all life is suffering. Um and then there are like there are moments where you're experiencing some temporary like pleasure or joy or something, but even there there's a form of Dukkha because you must acknowledge that it will end or that it could have been better even while you're experiencing it. And so the answer for that problem that they that they kind of state is baseline that all life is suffering is to remove desire from the world. And I would argue that you could very easily say that the zebra is black with white stripes not white with black stripes that the default could also be joy and peace and love and awe and all that and sometimes you dip down into suffering. And that's true for different people's privileges real all of that is something that we need to acknowledge, but when it comes to this group in particular and like people who are using social media and they're victims of algorithms and and like are addicted to chatting with AIs and stuff, I think that the The for me has been just to be really intentional about how I use my technology. Like I make it a point to call my parents across the world at least once a week. And I I make it a point to have cash on hand so that I can give it to the homeless person on the corner. And so like I try to be mindful of the technology that I have access to and use it intentionally. >> I think that's perfect for what any individual can and should be doing now. Like that combined with Chris's, you know, get out there and hands-on active, be the change you want to see in the world. Um the questions that really bug me are the ones that seem out of my control, but which affect me and everyone else, which a lot of times aren't due to malice, they're due to a lack of the same kind of conscientious planning that you're talking about on the individual level, but perpetrated on the [clears throat] international level. I mean, that I think social media is such a great example where it's like >> [clears throat] >> nothing malicious, it's just the fact that the payment structure for it was designed to be, you know, money for eyeballs. And that automatically selects for rage baiting and doom scrolling and people retracting from the world rather than going out into it. And all of these things that in retrospect were foreseeable, but but no one was motivated to see it. And it actually came probably from a good place where people are saying we want the internet we don't want to have it be even a buck a year, but if we in retrospect if we'd paid for that, it's like we could have we could have made social media actually make our lives better rather than having us become the product for someone else's shareholder value. >> Can I poll the group on something that's too personal? Like has anyone here ever like taken Raise your hand if you've ever like taken a Sabbath from your tech. >> From your tech? >> From your tech. >> From your tech. Can you unplug? >> Oh, all right. And like like keep your hands up if you've done that more than once. Like any kind of regularity. Oh, okay. >> No regularity. >> So, like >> [laughter] >> I guess I'm I guess like [clears throat] I think this question like I answer it differently for having done that maybe as far as like not good not positive than I might have if I hadn't done that. And like I'm I'm not from the church and I got married so like I have experience with alcohol and I would say like I guess until recently I think it could have been said that like yeah, like some people struggle with alcohol addiction but like most people can like handle it okay. And now just like I guess what's changed the last maybe like 18 months about like online gambling with men and like other things it sounds like it it it's actually like heroin. Very few people can dabble in it and be okay. And like that that's the exception not the rule. So, that's >> Are you saying that about alcohol as well or just >> No, no. So, alcohol is how I used to think of like tech. Okay, some people are going to get addicted but most people are fine. And now I'm like today the internet is actually like like probably like heroin. I've met people who've done heroin and like not like occasionally but I like I never I don't think I could try that and like not get addicted. >> What about um I mean if you're just saying that people find it very difficult not to use the internet, I would agree but like if if you're saying that the internet has the same sort of negative like mostly downsides and very little upside um like heroin, I would say no. >> I I guess I would just say like it it does seem to like change your brain and like has like the addictive property so you can be like functional using it but you are a different you and like I didn't I just didn't even occur to me to try it like I was listening to like um an Orthodox Jewish woman like talking about the holidays where um on like certain holidays you basically treat them like Shabbat. So she's like when you get 3 days in a row where like two like a a 48-hour holiday like is either right before or after Shabbat. She's like, "It's crazy. You get like your 90s brain back." Yeah, I I've almost done that where I have to like keep my phone but like but like yeah, it's >> Have you So you've done it? Right? You've done some Yeah. And you tell tell us about your experiences. I'm curious. >> I mean, if you want to you know I Fortunately, I don't have the experience of having been addicted to like opiates [clears throat] or something. So I can't say I know it's exactly like that, but I I do know what it's like to Like like my memory is different when I'm not using it. My comfort with boredom like my comfort with like different feelings is just different. >> Yeah. [clears throat] I wonder if anybody's had experience with specific aspects of the internet. Like are people cutting out all like your book on your TV reader or your >> podcast to listen to often about productivity and I'm like the irony friends will stop. >> [laughter] >> Do you guys agree that all agree that short-form videos are bad? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> I've only had that for a minute. They've had short-form chat videos on people who struggle with anxiety and PTSD and things like that. And limited scope of short-form videos of like cat videos and things like that actually decrease their cortisol levels, help them activate their sympathetic parasympathetic nervous system and Exactly. Within the limited scope. So I don't think the infinity scroll counts as that, but again it's being more deliberate and you know >> Yeah, that's like there was like a practice to maybe give us a modifiable when you you had a really stressful moment that was like maybe scary or you noticed your brain wanted to spiral, that's the time to play a game of Tetris, to do something that's totally mindless and to watch a cat video. And then there are other times where the the response is to reflect on it deeply and write in your journal. >> By the way, this did exist before the internet like my aunt played solitaire all the time. >> Yeah. >> Um and everyone always did the crossword puzzle in the New York Times. There's still a lot of people still do and there's like a lot of like occupying things that people did before >> But I think it's more like gambling, right? >> Like you >> It's like gambling. >> You went to Checo >> Gambling is correct. Absolutely. They've done studies on that, too. >> Yeah. Wait, you think it's more like gambling than than like reading >> Than like reading >> Yeah, I would read the I would read the funnies in the paper, but like you read through it and you're done. >> Like you can only read it so long. >> Yeah, yeah. I I heard you saying you're just saying there's like that was There's an endless wheel >> quickly finished, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's discreet. I agree with you. >> the change or or the casual suit with like is it fair for these social media companies to have large scroll features or auto play >> Yeah, yeah. I've heard this, yeah. >> That's the issue cuz like the the problem is not that that there's a category or that there's all these things, the problem is that it's put in a structure that removes our agency. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's also a problem in my opinion that like that the existence of interesting content is endless. That's what that like I I tell my kids about this a lot like I remember a time when you know, there was an hour in in the evening when nothing good was on TV after that and you just kind of like went to sleep because he didn't have a lot of stuff to do. >> I always like tell myself, "What do you care about this?" >> Yeah, yeah. >> No. >> And it's hard to say what's the optimal amount and then not only do it, but as a parent try to make your kids >> I should have said this to you like we sometimes these discussions go for a long time and we [laughter] don't feel we don't feel like we have to stay >> So I have my bedtime and I got an hour to drive. So I am going to take a >> Yeah, thank you. >> Mine's going to be racing all night because of everything. Very, very good conversations. I appreciate all of us. >> Yeah, thank you, Trey. >> Yeah.