“This Keeps 99% Of People Poor!” (From Broke To Millionaire)

as most of you guys know Dave Ramsey and I don't exactly agree on everything I love credit cards he hates credit cards I love leveraging debt he hates leveraging debt I like subscribing for the YouTube algorithm all right we get it anyways today we're sitting down with this Protege George camel And discussing the secrets behind why Dave Ramsey's methods have been so successful at helping people become millionaires on average it takes people 18 to 24 months to get out of all Consumer Debt surprisingly it's pretty simple so it's just the introduction to the new philosophy exactly keep watching because this is one of the best debt arguments that we've ever had in the podcast and you're really going to enjoy it I promise but first we gotta thank our sponsor optimizing my workflow is seeming like a never-ending task I honestly feel like I need software now to start optimizing how I'm optimizing my workflow but of course Graham of course that was before I started using today's sponsor bittrex24 bittrex24 is an all-in-one platform that can replace multiple software tools and streamline your business with over 12 million users worldwide bittrex 24 is currently the most popular CRM and project management tool and the best part is that it's completely free to use you can manage your projects tasks team team Communications and more all in one place with one of their over 35 free tools from customer relationship management to marketing automation there is something for you regardless of how big or small your business is and my personal favorite Graham is the project management calendar which has been an absolute Game Changer in managing my daily tasks it's available in the cloud on mobile or for you techies as an open source software that can be installed on your own servers and is fully customizable say goodbye to switching between multiple tools or having to pay for multiple subscriptions so try it for free today using a link down below and take your workflow to the next level for good again the link is down below in the description to get started today and now with that said let's get back to the podcast welcome back to the iced coffee hour I'm George camel great intro thank you so much George for making this happen I gave it my all yeah it was incredible This Is Amazing by the way we have this full crew right here every time we come to the Ramsay headquarters we are just treated you guys are VIP we treat everyone like this but you guys are extra special and the iced coffee too it is lovely here we really appreciate it well we love having you guys thanks for coming back yeah we didn't scare you away the first time no apparently not I loved everything you did with Dave was awesome thank you if anyone hasn't watched all of that they need to go back because it was some of my favorite Dave Graham content ever wow yo I'm glad we could bring you on because we had an interesting discussion the other night at dinner I thought you would have had one credit card like something you were like I'm gonna get this guy he's surely just like he's got to tell people not to use them but he's got to have at least one right we were paying for dinner and I thought okay you could get like two to five percent cash back it was when we were paying for dinner but I was like looking through his wallet he's like oh you got any credit cards in here and no surprisingly you did not so you reflect the the Mantra of the company which is really interesting I live out all the principles and it's not like a what if Dave checks my wallet no there's none of that there's no we're not doing credit checks here no one checks your wallet when you apply it's just kind of the honor System that if you work here you actually believe in this stuff and so I've I just celebrated today 10 years we did a fun staff meeting announcement and I got a little box of my little coins for one year five year ten year and part of that now announcement and celebration was like this guy has Faithfully walked out the principles for a decade now what does that mean tent you celebrate 10 years like 10 years debt free taxes really yeah so I've been on Dave's team I started as a temp and an intern worked in marketing social media email marketing I never I didn't have any kind of on-camera role until 2017. I had no idea because I think I found you maybe two years ago when I started seeing you appear on the Ramsay show but I had no idea you were here for that long yeah I feel like I grew up here I mean it's crazy I know you've been you know when you start your career young it just feels like you kind of mature like when you get married definitely for you grow up with your spouse and so I feel like this place raised me in a sense I met my wife here she still works here really so this place like runs through my veins and so I'm very passionate about it and I love the principles and I love getting to help people it's funny even a lady at the front desk she said she just celebrated 18 years at the company so it seems like when people start working here they just stay here I mean once you find a good thing I mean why go anywhere yeah you know so that was my story so what tree to Ramsay did you start off with debt like what was your story behind that so when I started at Ramsey as a temp and intern I was thirty six thousand dollars in student loan debt I had four thousand dollars in credit card debt and I'd heard about Financial Peace University I'd moved from Boston uh Massachusetts to Mobile Alabama and of course Dave has a heavier presence in the South you know in the Bible Belt Evangelical churches and all that and so I had heard about FPU but I didn't really know much more than like oh he's a finance guy so what drew me actually was a personality we had at the time and I wanted to kind of work with him and help him with Social Media stuff I was a marketing guy I was a musician and so I just loved helping other people reach folks in a creative way and that to me was what marketing is and so that's kind of how I got my start here was really through that personality and then I was like oh I'm gonna go through Financial Peace University as a new team member and it changed everything like my whole Paradigm changed and I realized everything I know about money was wrong like I was lied to like the system is designed to keep you broke what do you spend the money on on what you said you were four thousand dollars in credit card oh yeah oh my God what was that about so I was a musician and so it was a lot of just gear and camera gear I love video editing I was going to go to film school so you know you're like I gotta have a DSLR because like what if I want to start a YouTube channel and the amp is a little old let's upgrade the amp and so it was just stupid stuff and gear and again I opened a Discover card because it had like rotating five percent cash back and I was like that's a no-brainer right deal right there and they had the American Express Delta Sky miles cards like well you know I want to travel and see my family I can do right and all of a sudden I'm carrying a balance of four thousand dollars and I'm broke going like but they they told me this is the path like this is what's gonna get me the free stuff and the cash back and so at some point I was just like it's not worth it and so I cut up the cards now when you spent that money though I assume you just didn't have the cash to pay it off so what was your plan with that just you're gonna put it on a card did you expect to make enough money to pay off I'm not thinking that far it's always the plan that you're gonna have the money later to pay it all off at the end of the month like when the bill comes due I'm gonna have the money but as I now know taking calls on the Ramsay show every day it just doesn't always work out like that life hits you there's an emergency and most of the people who are using the credit cards they don't have a pile of cash in the bank to cover those expenses and that was me you know I was 23 years old just getting started with an entry level salary like I didn't have much but you would spend some time in College correct yes I graduated you graduated what did you study I studied communication because I wanted to go into marketing and media and film and that was about as close as I could get and how'd you get your initial job at the the Ramsey solution it was actually through some Twitter DMs I was very persistent tenacious you know much like you guys a lot of hustle and I was just like I want to work there I'll do whatever it takes I'll do whatever you want I'm here to just serve I want to be there and what Drew you exactly to it you said it was a personality but what was it specifically um I think it was you know me coming out of I grew up Arabic Baptist which is very strange if you know anything about the Middle East and religion you know people like you weren't Muslim but growing up in the in this Arabic Baptist bubble of Boston I came from this Evangelical background and I love the way this personality brought kind of faith and humor and heart altogether and it's a lot of what we do here you know a lot of faith a lot of humor a lot of heart and that's that's Dave in a nutshell it's so entertaining so that's what really drew me to this place is just kind of seeing someone with a really inspiring message presented in a creative way so you were a casual viewer turned hardcore fan turned I want to work with this guy so you DM them a bunch on Twitter and then you made it work yeah and that turned into well let me get in touch with another person and that became let's get a call with HR and it was like let's try to find a way to make this work because you know they don't you can't be an intern if you already graduated from college so it became how do we get an intern well let's make him a temp so they found a temp role for me in social media and so that all sort of percolated into a full-time role months later interesting and you were in poor financial standing when you first started working here did they take that into consideration at the time do you tell them like hey like I got student loans I got 4K of credit card debt there's not like a money confessional during the interview process but they do uh ask you to do a budget which I know you guys are you know not the biggest budgeters as I heard from Caleb this guy's a big budgeter I'm I was a big budgeter not so much anymore so yeah part of the budget is just to go like hey we want to make sure that what you need to make it is enough and that our salary that we can offer you is going to cover that because what you don't want is someone to start working here and all of a sudden they're like I can't even make this work and with people coming in with a whole bunch of debt it can be tough and so it's I think it's a really cool part of the process to just go like do a budget and for some people they may be doing it for the first time no so they look at the income that they're about to to pay and say can you can you live off this income essentially I mean it's it's a very basically I actually really like that that is inside I like that a lot and it's not to like pry into your finances and it's all about your income it's just going what are your expenses and we want to make sure that this makes sense for you financially this would be interesting there's this clip that's gone viral lately you probably have seen it of JP uh the CEO Jamie dimon from JPMorgan Chase uh was speaking with an employee who's making or or she was talking about someone making 16.25 cents an hour uh going in debt I think she was in the red four or five hundred dollars a month working this job at JPMorgan Chase and they wanted her to be making more money and it was just a really interesting clip you should react to this um but I think had they done a budget on that it would have been very apparent right at the very beginning that this is not the right job for her to be able to pay her expenses well you guys know this I mean a lot of people are out there they're hurting from inflation and the housing market and interest rates and like life feels impossible but when I dig into people's finances generally it's not the egg prices that are actually keeping us broke it's the debt payments and I did a man on the street the other day in downtown Nashville and this girl's like I have to live with my parents I don't I'm like how much do you make she's like I make eighty thousand dollars I was like and you can't move out she's like no I was like well what's what's happening in your finances how much debt do you have what does it add up to a month I have two thousand dollars in payments a month on just Consumer Debt and so I was like well if you didn't have two thousand dollars in debt you would have two thousand more dollars to budget and use to live your life and afford rent and so it's very clear to me that debt is a huge problem with this generation especially we'll get on to the debt debate right at the end that's a retention hack everyone so stay until the end exactly and you're gonna review some of Jack spending hats yeah I can't potentially do a little audit on Me Maybe Grand two if he's open to it but only four things on that list here's what Graham spent in the last month exactly but let's get on to uh your your start here at Ramsey so you started out what'd you say you were doing marketing yes I was a social media marketer email marketing coordinator so I was in marketing for my first four years here and FPU is not mandatory to go through as a new employee here but it is it's suggested or it's it's it is it's part if you haven't gone through it it's part of the onboarding process so there's a few books that we want you to read some of them are books some of them just books that Dave loves leadership books and then part of that is if you haven't gone through Financial Peace University you've got to go through it because this is our Flagship money course this is our principles in a nutshell and so if you haven't gone through that you've got to know what we're about in Financial Peace University is just the best way to do that it's nine lessons over nine weeks and you can go through it locally I went through it with a local class at a church here which was really cool yeah how did that change your views on money well I grew up the way a lot of people grew up thinking like you know watching my parents who are immigrants immigrated from the Middle East and they just conformed to this American money culture which was well you gotta have a good car and you know it's probably going to take a loan to do that you've got to have a house so you got to get a big mortgage and you know you got to get the credit score so you got to open up the credit cards and get all your lines of credit going and that is how you make it financially what's funny is no other country lives like this with the obsession of debt the obsession of the credit score and so I fell for those same traps growing up and so what changed for me going through Financial Peace University was number one realizing that debt is Like A New Concept this has not been around our grandma didn't play with debt the way we do in today's society and so realizing debt is not my friend the system is designed to keep you broke and even better there's a way to rise above it all and you don't have to live with this kind of stress playing this Wild game before we go into that we talk a lot about financial success here on the channel but what's even more important is the mental aspect and health along the way and today's sponsor betterhelp is here to help you out with both betterhelp isn't a crisis line nor is it self-help it's the world's largest therapy service and it's 100 online with over 30 000 licensed and experienced therapists in their Network they offer help for a wide range of issues so I've personally been using betterhelp for the last month now and I honestly started it to make sure that it was something I was comfortable promoting but honestly over the four sessions I've taken I did not expect how much it would have actually helped my mental health you can talk to your therapist by text chat phone or video call and you can even and message your therapist at any time or schedule live sessions when it's convenient for you and plus if for any reason your therapist isn't the right fit you can switch to a new therapist at no additional charge with better help you get the same professionalism and quality as you would expect from an in-office therapy session except with a therapist who's custom picked for you so if you're interested in getting started with betterhelp visit the link Down Below in the description or go to betterhelp.com iced coffee hour to get 10 off your first month of therapy thanks again to betterhelp for sponsoring this episode and back to the podcast can we talk about the nine steps really quickly because I'm a failure I think with a couple of them but can you go through them yeah so are you done with the seven baby steps uh you just said there was nine steps to the oh there's nine courses let's do the seven baby steps so here's the Ramsay baby steps in a nutshell baby step number one thousand dollar starter emergency fund so this is just a little buffer between you and life and we found that four in ten people have zero dollars in savings and so this is a huge milestone just to have a thousand bucks in the bank for most most Americans once you have that thousand bucks you move on to baby step two and you do these in focused with Focus intensity in order can I could I raise a point of contention right there because I was on Caleb Hammer's thing right I saw this special audit yes and he said that Dave claims or he's proud that he hasn't changed his philosophy in like 30 some years or something like that and Caleb said if I hadn't changed my philosophy in 30 some years that's not something I would necessarily be proud of and this was directly related to that step a thousand dollar emergency fund which over time especially with inflation has became a lot less value no was it a thousand dollars thirty years ago really it's always been a thousand so what oh like actually that would be about two to three thousand yeah so how long until that 1000 gets changed to something else 2048 no I'm just kidding because I'm wondering here's the funniest it's gonna be diluted to basically like a lollipop yeah we're thinking about this in terms of math right of like well a thousand dollars thirty years ago three thousand dollars now but it was never about math because truthfully a thousand bucks even back then with a true emergency still wouldn't cover it and so the idea of baby step one is not to have a mathematical number that covers your emergencies it's to light a fire under you to actually attack the deck because if we said hey it's five thousand dollars for baby step one most people are gonna fall off the wagon now you guys are sharp guys you would knock that out for most people that we talk to that's a big struggle they need a quick win and the second thing it does is it actually does cover all the ankle biter emergencies like when you think about a lot of the emergencies in your life it's not necessarily the HVAC and the five thousand dollar car repair it's the 200 bucks you to pay to the plumber or in your case maybe the locksmith you know it's those kinds of things and so a lot of it is mental fear of like you know and you guys you're you're willing to take a lot more risk financially than I am and so the thousand dollars the fact that scares you but you're so willing to take risks in other places there's just a mental hurdle to get past where you go I'm gonna get a thousand dollars and I'm gonna follow this proven plan because it works and that's the wild part is it it feels like it's not enough and yet millions of people do it and I go oh I survived I made it sure that's actually really interesting it's not a long-term thing because remember baby step two when we tell people to get out of debt on average it takes people 18 to 24 months to get out of all Consumer Debt huh and so then you fully fund that emergency fund for three to six months of expenses which is you know widely regarded as the right number yeah so it's just the introduction to the new philosophy exactly okay this is not meant to be a long-term savings okay let's go into just a buffer the next couple steps so this one I'm sure you'll have contention here too I don't know baby step two pay off all Consumer Debt using the debt snowball method okay what's the snowball method so the snowball method means we are looking at all the balances and ignoring the interest rate I know Grant just go with me okay go with me Define logic I'm really trying it delete the interest rates out of your head look at the balances pay off pay all minimum payments on all of those balances except for the smallest one and with that smallest one we are attacking it with a Vengeance everything you can sell side jobs any margin you can create by slashing expenses we throw onto that smallest debt and what does that do well it speeds up the process and so that that gets knocked out we free up a payment so now we can apply all the margin we had plus that payment they got freed up towards the next debt and so you can see the snowball gets more snow as it rolls down the hill so it sounds like the baby steps aren't attacking like Financial instability from the most advantageous angle but it's more so doing it from like fixing the psychology of financially broken people oh yeah we say all the time that personal finance is 80 Behavior it's only 20 head knowledge we all know what to do right we all know not to go into credit card debt and not to overspend and to live on less than we make but it's so hard to do and so when it comes to getting out of debt we can't go in the same way to get out and so it's got to take Behavior change and sacrifice and Grandma you you uh you've said this in one of your past Clips were reacted to that living on less than you made is one of the best financial decisions you've ever made yeah Dave Ramsey is really a therapist is what what I've realized that is a hard pill for me to swallow because I'm like I just feel like you gotta do like the financially smart thing if you're just looking at the numbers but it actually makes the thing is actually it makes a lot of sense there's a lot of emotion I know you know it's a lot of logic but there's so much emotion tied up with money that's subconscious that we don't really think about talk about but think about every purchase you've made there was some emotion tied to it some of it was necessity right you have to pay the light bill but some of it is just like I saw it I want it I'm gonna get it that's most of our consumer culture today I feel like two for Dave if you're speaking to a room of a thousand people probably 900 of them yes have a have a behavior problem and maybe a hundred people would would do better with the with the Avalanche method you know which is let's attach the highest a highest interest rate but for 900 of those people they'd be better off just starting with the bottom and working their way up that's what I brought up to Dave on the first time and I'll ask you that question at the end of the episode Another retention hack uh but let's go on to the third baby step okay so baby step three once we have all of our debt paid off all Consumer Debt we have a thousand bucks in the bank saved now we go back and fully fund that emergency fund with three to six months of expenses okay not income but expenses so Bare Bones expenses what would it take if you guys lost all of your income and you had to survive for three to six months and so that part on average takes our folks about six months to do okay I like it so all in on this plan from having a pile of debt to being debt free with money in the bank to cover emergencies we're talking two and a half years which for most people sounds like a long time yeah like if you're 24 years old you're going to I'm going to be a grown adult by then it's 27. but two and a half years is going to be here whether you like it or not so the question is do you want to remain broke because you thought you were a financial genius or do you want to have no payments in the world with a pile of money to cover you and so it's a freeing thing when you get to that point sure I like that yeah and then what's after that so then we can start talking about investing and so here's the problem when we talk about baby step two this is gonna grind your gears we say to pause all investing including your employer match when you're getting out of debt I did not know it was including employer match everything down to zero we gotta think most likely that employer match is not going to be that big in the big picture compared to paying off debt right now I mean we're talking to be better you're pausing your three percent match for two years but when you come back here's the thing I found most people are only investing up to the match because that's all they can afford yeah they're broke so we go hey what if two and a half years from now instead of investing three percent you can invest 15 percent so we 5xed our investment contributions at that point yeah you're gonna make up for lost time the problem is most people stay doing 17 things at once and 20 years later they're still doing 17 things at once and haven't made the progress they wanted yeah it's probably better to focus on fewer things get really good at like just I gotta do these three things and that's it that's the plan so baby steps one through three Focus intensity one at a time baby steps four five and six you actually do at the same time but they're still in that order so they're still priority four comes before five but it's a plate that you get spinning and then you move on to the next one so baby step four is fifteen percent of your household income into retirement accounts have you found that 15 is like the magic number why not 20. because I feel like 15 I think if you say 15 of your income I think the average retirement is like 45 years is how much it takes you to be able to replace your income yeah we've found you know there's been different numbers people some people say okay if you're not doing 20 at least with inflation everything go going on like you're not gonna be able to retire but what we found is the reason 15 is a sweet spot is because it allows you to have some margin to do baby steps five and six which is college and early mortgage payoff because if you do 20 there's not a lot of room left to help your kid go to college debt free if they choose to do so not a lot of room left to pay off the mortgage early which then frees you up later in life sure okay so that's where we go hey 15 into we say match beats Roth beats traditional so that's the investing strategy in a nutshell uh no secrets here you want to get that match first because that's 100 return on your investment then move on to Roth because we love the tax-free growth for most people uh you know if you're younger Roth is going to be a better option for the long term and then you can move on to traditional got it okay so that's five and six and then the final one so five would be saving for college and that one's it that varies again because some people don't go to college some people um might be late for them but put money away in a 529 plane for example because college is getting more expensive and so if your kid does choose to go to college and that's the right path for them it's hard for a kid at 18 to have a hundred thousand dollars saved and so to have a parent get ahead of that and we've we've done a whole documentary on this called borrowed future that's free on YouTube and I hosted a podcast series with the same name and we dug into this crisis about like how did we get here the entire student loan industry is a giant scam and they decided they can just raise prices because people are willing to take out debt to pay for it and so the whole thing got real muddy real quick and here we are 1.7 trillion dollars in student loan debt yeah with 45 million what was the conclusion on that why is college so expensive why are the costs going up so much it started with a lot of good intentions from the government to kind of get in bed with the student loan companies and go we should make this federally backed and all of a sudden it became like this is a money pumping machine for Sallie Mae and so if they raise the prices people go well okay we'll just take out more student loan debt and the government's backing this yeah this is a good idea and so that became a cycle where the student loan companies are making record profits every year the students as as you guys know like the wages didn't go up 500 percent and so they're leaving still making 40 50 Grand but now they have 200 000 of student loan debt and what did we tell our kids growing up get good grades get good SAT scores so you can go to the College of your dreams regardless of what it costs and so that all of a sudden you have 45 million people fall into this trap of student loan debt which I think we could all argue is not uh the greatest form of debt as far as Roi some people I agreed it's great they they'll if you're going to be a doctor and you're going to go make three four hundred thousand dollars there's some pretty clear math you could do to say like there's Roi on this but going and getting like a liberal studies degree and going like well I was told the degree is the path I mean you guys know that degrees do not equal success and as we go further in time that is more and more true and so that's a huge part of Saving for college and then baby step six is paying off the mortgage early again there's no parameters on this we found that people who follow our plan end up paying off their mortgage in about seven years and the average millionaire from our study pays it off in about 10 years it's tough for me at like a 2.875 30-year fixed I remember the last time 2.875 yeah what are you 2.874 oh well yeah what's the same thing I just round up that's a win that's a win for a boy Jack yeah it's the point like nine nine basically I just it's rounded okay so we're arguing over like an extra two dollars a month it's something like that well mine's the same I just I round the same yeah so here's a question because I know you bought your first rental property in cash I did why not take out a mortgage to do that I tried oh and then yeah I got denied because I didn't have a credit card and that and believe it or you have a credit score this is an interesting discussion right yeah yeah so that was one of my biggest regrets that's what actually really got me into credit cards to begin with you were like I had I'm not not gonna fall for this I have no debt I paid everything with cash and I saved so at the time I think I was 20 years old give her take I had like 120 Grand saved up in cash I bought everything with cash I bought my car cash I used a debit card on everything I was so proud it's like I had no debt and I've never needed to borrow money for anything I was so proud of that so when I wanted to go and buy a property I spoke with several mortgage uh Brokers all of them were like if you don't have a credit card you need you need a co-signer I couldn't get a co-signer because my parents did not have a good uh credit score at the time yeah who wants to Coastline for a 20 year old's mortgage and that's scary oh yeah totally so I couldn't get any sort of cosigner my grandma offered but she was Grandma but she was Canadian and there was a big issue having a Canadian cosign on my mortgage as an American so couldn't do that and so I had to buy the property cash but I went several routes I think one lender offered me it was like an eight or nine percentage like it was so high it just didn't make sense for me to take so I bought a cash and after that I vowed I'm gonna get a credit score a credit card I'm gonna build up my credit score I'm gonna make a huge change here and so now that's why I'm like such an advocate of like hey get a credit card build your credit score you could do it for free it's really easy and now I've got like an 805 credit score anywhere I want to get money from I get it at the lowest interest rate but do you have money like you have enough money that you never need to borrow money in a sense in a sense but it makes it makes sense of my tax bracket though because I could use everything as a deduction this is like the Kiyosaki like well that's not taxed it's the ultimate wealth hack pretty much but if I'm looking to buy a property whatever uh debt I have against that property is just to write off against the rental income so already it knocks off like 40 percent of what I would be paying so like I say 40 just taking out debt on that um your discussion with Dave on this when you showed him all your properties and you're like hey what would you change and he was like I mean I'd pay off all the mortgages it's like just to reduce risk it's not mathematically in the picture here but yeah when it comes to the interest rate and I actually did a no credit score mortgage back in 2019 successfully so I just want to say that it can be done and it wasn't it wasn't that hard honestly I was kind of shocked at how easy it was you know you submit a bunch of documents your tax return 12 months of rental history uh proof of payments like Insurance cell phone bills and well they've gotten better about it I've seen but this was back in 2010. a lot of those things they weren't taking into account cell phone payments utility bills things like this yeah and Churchill Mortgage which we've you know has been an Advertiser with Dave for decades right now they're they're like the number one in the industry and so they walk you through the whole process and I did a 15 year and we actually ran the numbers on this because a lot of people I posted a video that went viral on Tick Tock and it got so much hate but people are like Well yeah if you want a 49 interest rate you can try that guy's method and I was like I got the same rate that someone with excellent credit would have gotten so we ran the numbers on this with some of the mortgage loan officers there and it turns out if you do a 15-year fixed rate mortgage which is the only mortgage we recommend at Ramsey and you do at least 10 percent down which we always recommend 10 down then you would have the same exact interest rate as someone with excellent credit on a what on a 15 or on a 15 year with 10 down you have the same rate and so that argument was just debunked with actual data from from the mortgage quotes but it's an interesting topic because I was you know you're kind of worried like when you want to be a homeowner and there's one thing in your way and that's the credit score it's scary but having the data in front of you to go okay I need 12 months rental history most people are going to have that I paid I've paid my insurance and cell phone bills on time I have my tax return I can get a mortgage and it could also be just as easy to get like a secured credit card a 300 limit you know put a few charges on the card every month that you would spend anyway like put your gas on the card like every time you go to the gas station put it on the car sure paid off in full if they even like immediately afterwards when it posts pay it off yeah there's a lot of ways to skin that cat but I found if you're if you're going through the whole Ramsey plan from start to finish when we're like hey do a plusectomy and cut up the credit card and close the accounts there is a finality to the breakup that is also very freeing to go like I don't have to keep up with what's the latest credit I mean I love your your videos like the one you know here's the five best credit cards to get in 2023 and here's the ones here's the rotating cashback and if restaurants this month are five percent I'm like but the whole point is we're trying to limit our expenses and be intentional and be on a budget so getting five percent back on eating out which is something that's going to cost you way more than yeah eating at home it kind of negates the cost especially when you go if you carry a balance you're now at 24 APR if you don't pay it off in full but my thought is that if you're going to a restaurant anyway you may as well save five percent so if you're gonna do it yeah which again like very controversial take from Dave is you shouldn't be eating out if you're trying to aggressively really pay off Consumer Debt yeah like and as someone who you know we're both pretty Frugal guys like it is unwise to go out and spend 30 40 bucks on you know we went out and it was like there's a 20 gratuity automatic there's a 15 liquor tax on top of the tax if you've got a cocktail or you just don't drink exactly there's another life hack and so all of a sudden you go there's no way this is this is cheaper than eating at home and so the whole idea of like eating at home and I get people are like well your time you know I saw the Alex harmosi clip where he's like you should never eat at home your idiot if you eat at home you should always be eating out like your time is worth so much more I'm like for most people their time isn't worth that much more like he's talking to them he's making millions of dollars yeah right most people watching this they're making 14 an hour going hermosie told me I should never eat at home I'm losing money and so there's a lot of debate in that Circle as well but on the credit card side I just don't miss it I mean I legitimately you've seen my wallet it's just the Apple wallet and I have one card in your wallet right now I just have my one I have my bank card and my license that is it you can see here I'm not going to show you the card number yeah sure but there's my license and my debit card and it's you can see it says debit that's true verify I feel like a magician being like yeah but that's it and it's been such a freeing life because I used to have you know multiple cards of which one should I use what's going to be the best for cash back and the mental energy I was spending and then going am I utilizing the rewards to their full potential and we talked about this the other night about like what it what is the actual dollar value you can assign and for people who are making crazy money and they've got the fanciest Amex cards like you're utilizing all the value because you are super intentional for most people they're collecting the airline miles they're like I don't know how many miles this is because it's not actual Air Miles you have 40 000 miles you're like that feels like a lot that'll get you to Boise one way if you're lucky from Nashville and so a lot of people aren't doing the math on what these rewards are actually costing them and if it's actually worth it yeah I think we added up mine I was guessing about twenty five hundred dollars a year Annual fees is that taken out of that um because like the AMX ones have you know some high high annual fees I believe that's including the annual fees and so I was like could I show Graham how to save two thousand dollars in a year just by budgeting and being super intentional with expenses I think I could it'd be a fun experiment if anyone out there is willing to try it well also you have to think for for 2500 bucks if you spent that time that you were studying like all the rotating fees and I don't study it's it's just like a study he skipped that part nothing to study on this it's just like well for most people's cars most people's reward cards it's a different scenario versus what you're doing and so for most people and also their income when you look at the income ratio to the rewards they're getting it's just not worth it you know two percent cash back let's say that's the number and you make fifty thousand dollars well after taxes and after what you can actually put on the card most you can spend on that card is what 20 grand in a year depends on the card yeah so let's say two percent on 20 grand is it worth it for 400 bucks well I mean to play that for a free credit card like the city double cash is that example it's just two percent cash back on anything you spend money on so from my perspective everything is two percent cheaper assuming but you don't spend money off how does this work well I'm gonna spend money on something right sure so it's like if I could get two percent cash back on everything then it adds up I'm just a free card most like obviously the people that we're talking to very different audience sure you were talking to people who are looking to maximize their wealth I'm talking to people who are like really struggling yeah like they're hurting they're not making a lot of money they're not making hundred thousand I would agree to get from zero to one I think that makes the most sense if you're a multi-millionaire too you're gonna be okay anyways if you're a multi-millionaire but for the people we're talking to they're teachers they make 40 Grand and they heard from everyone around them that credit cards are the path the credit score is the path and we're just trying to help free them so that they can retire one day then it just goes like what is in my way that could stop me from doing that and the risk of 24 APR is not worth the reward of two percent so I saw a great reaction I believe it was you and Ken who did this one the person who was uh having a wedding and they said here's a life hack you can put all of your expenses on the credit card and now we got a free trip and we got our honeymoon paid for with credit card points I'm looking at that and I'm thinking that's fantastic that's a a great choice because if you're gonna if the budget is let's say twenty thousand dollars you can open up three to four credit cards get the sign up bonus on all of them that's a free trip free airfare free Hotel you know what's more expensive the marriage counseling when you start your your marriage off with sixty thousand dollars in credit okay at twenty four percent let's just assume okay sixty thousand I don't know if that was the exact amount that they were spending you could probably do that on ten to fifteen thousand dollars get a totally free honeymoon paid for just by opening up the cards getting the sign up bonus let's say 15 grand if you're gonna spend fifteen thousand dollars anyway and you're intentional about it that's a free trip that's a free honeymoon so it's saving you money at the end of the day well I got a free wedding so I can't talk but most people when it comes to weddings they're way overspending and so if it's your money if it's Graham's money from his bank account from his debit card you're gonna look at that wedding very differently you're going let's actually like get quotes from multiple florists and see like what you know and like you may be entering the space soon where it's like we got to start planning for this thing and I'm not trying to spend 80 grand on a wedding to throw a party for other people and so it changes how you make decisions when you use your own money and that's honestly the biggest reason I advocate for debit cards over credit cards because it changed mentally it's different when it's coming out of your bank instantly you treat that differently than well I'll pay this off at the end of the month in bulk I think we're getting very nuanced here Graham's trying to pull up specific examples and numbers and everything exactly why it's better and you're providing the psychology yeah behind it all right so I think the the fundamental difference here is that Graham thinks that if you are someone that's very diligent with their money you go through your statements and you're intentional about everything um and you can remove your emotions from your finances then yes it's there's a net positive and you're saying probably right probably well most people think they're that person is the problem we all put ourselves in that bucket of like yeah well I'm the type of person I'll never have a balance on my credit card and we're 987 billion dollars in credit card debt as a nation average credit card debt six grand a person and so like everyone started that Journey only going well yeah I'm not going to be that guy and all of a sudden you're that guy at 24 interest and you're calling our show and you're like I'm 130 000 in credit card debt at 22 interest well I feel like a lot of those are people who spent money they didn't have to begin with like if you know I have five thousand dollars in my savings account but I'm saying but no I think a lot of people just put the money in the card expecting like I could make the minimum payment it's not going to be that bad I'll think about it for me you know a year from now I think very few people see I have five thousand dollars in savings I'm gonna spend two thousand dollars anyway I'm gonna put it on the card and pay it off immediately I have a feeling a lot of people say I have a thousand dollars in cash I have a 5 000 thing I'm gonna spend money on let me just put on the card and pay it off later I'll say this I don't think I would be a net worth millionaire today if I still had my credit cards I think using a debit card change my mentality and it changed my goals to where it caused me to spend way more intentionally be on a budget and win more when it comes to money and speed up that process can you admit if you have technically on paper somebody who can do every single thing right and play the game they would be better off financially using credit they can benefit from it and that's true like I'm not saying there's people out there who you know people who have become Millionaires and they don't have debt and they have emergency funds who they can use credit cards and pay them off every month and they're going to be fine and I'm not mad at anyone who uses credit cards I'll be friends with you all day long but the the data is too clear to me and not just the data but the reality of it because we take the brunt of people who are struggling that everyone has the mentality that they're not going to be that guy but then life hits and they become that guy and so you know the credit card Awards I just looked into uh Capital one's financial statements for 2022 because another angle on this is who is paying for the rewards and a lot of people are like well The Interchange fees you know when you go and you spend money it's you know three percent is charged to the business and that gets passed on in rewards I looked at the numbers and capital one's Revenue 15 over 15 billion came from interest which is people who couldn't pay the balance interest and fees only about 6 billion came from the other Revenue through interchange and so about two-thirds of the rewards mathematically is paid for by people who are hurting and struggling and paying interest and so you're not a bad person if you reap their Awards but for me personally like it just feels icky to me like I don't want to support A system that operates in that way I think also there's a little level of confirmation bias between YouTube because just the people you surround yourself by everyone that calls in has basically been demolished by credit and everything but Graham and I on the other hand like the people that we associate with a lot of the people we decide just a part of our our Circle you know like they've done it extremely well and it's benefited them a ton so I think there's also just a difference in in culture in the people oh absolutely yeah I mean you guys are you're speaking to this percentage of people who are like the Uber Finance nerds we are talking to like every American all walks of life you come to us we're going to help you and that's the thing is like our plan works for everyone it may not be the fastest as far as like could you go in the lottery tomorrow and could you get really good at playing stocks you could but the chances of you getting burnt on that versus winning in the long term is much higher and so that's where we just go I I'm not a risk guy and I want to win as stupid as I am I still want to win financially and so I love that this plan works for people across the Spectrum yeah can you walk us through your net worth from when you started here to now because you mentioned being a net worth millionaire but then starting off with debt could you walk us through that process and uh like your net worth by age if that makes sense yeah I'm trying to think I didn't like track it methodically but when I started at Ramsey I had a negative net worth of you know negative 40 Grand in the whole between my student loans and my credit cards and I didn't have much to my name um you know I had like a little two thousand dollar 401K that I rolled over from when I was at Apple and a few stocks that I ended up selling to get out of debt faster oh really quick you mentioned that you had 13 shares I had 13 share I looked at the splits because I knew you'd ask yep those 13 shares were worth about seven or eight grand when I sold them if I had held on to them two today they would be worth a little over 50 Grand yep so you were asking does that hurt in hindsight I was like I don't look at hindsight of what could have been sure you know it's like a relationship like what could have been but honestly becoming debt free that much faster I think it was a it was a wash as far as the result okay to get out of debt faster get the emergency fund faster begin investing faster I feel like it was still worth it I would do it all over again but as far as net worth I was negative forty thousand dollars in the hole back in uh 2013 when I started and 2023 here we are and I have a net worth of almost 1.1 million how is that comprised is that a house Investments like what's the breakdown of that so I am very heavily weighted towards mortgage because we me and my wife who again works here when we got married we both started off completely debt free in our marriage I had already paid off all my debt we had the emergency fund we had already both built up savings and so we were able to put down 45 percent on our modest town home in Nashville wow and so that allowed us to have a smaller mortgage of 165. which we then aggressively paid over 26 months and so 26 months later we're completely debt free as you know we live in one of the wealthiest counties in the nation here in in Williamson County in Tennessee and so the house appreciation as you know in the last few years skyrocketed and so that is a huge part of our net worth so we're waiting about um at least two-thirds in house currently and then the other third between my wife and I it's basically just our 401 case and you know we have we have our cars which aren't worth that much um but aside from that you know you guys we were talking at dinner and it was like you really don't have single stocks you really don't have any crypto I was like I'm so boring I literally just have a 401k I have an IRA that was a rollover yeah that has the same uh Diversified mutual funds as my 401k and my wife invest the same exact way through her Roth 401k and we are as boring as it gets when it comes to that how confident are you with your own personal finances like what's your relationship with Financial Security just the feeling of it right oh I would say on that front security wise I feel better than I've ever felt in my life as far as Financial Security and part of that is you know just living a debt-free life it removes that piece of the brain that's going like you're not okay you're not safe and I know you guys that part of your brain was removed long ago like you're you're totally okay well like as far as far as like mortgages and risk and obviously real estate versus if all of that real estate debt was in crypto you might be losing sleeping oh yeah but you're very comfortable with real estate you're a savant when it comes to real estate and so you understand what you're invested in but as far as Financial Security I feel great about retirement and again I'm not trying to do like the you know there's the fire movement and I'm not trying to retire at 35. that's not a goal for me especially as someone who's married has a family you know we just have different goals and so I'm like I love what I do I want to be here for the next 20 years and so I'm totally okay okay with my 401k slowly growing in Balance over time over the next 20 years versus I need to make a half million dollars in the next five years or else I'm screwed on my plan and so it's I have a long longer term Horizon longer term game plan if the folks that are doing fire they want to retire in the next five years you've got to be wildly aggressive and how secure do you feel financially Graham like what's your relationship with your own um I feel like I'm it sounds stupid probably 75 secure but a lot of it I think like what the worst case scenario I I think to myself stocks going down 50 at the same time there's like some sort of lawsuit that happens at the same time as like you know I don't know I think of like if if like let's say an earthquake hits Los Angeles and it's like the one and insurance payouts aren't like enough and it all happens at the same time real estate crashes your Investments crash yeah yeah and you still have a cash cash position I do which that's a big hedge for you right but I'm like if everything happens at once how do I insulate myself from that like I have insurances and stuff like that we get calls like that on the show where people are like hey I saw the news and like should I pull out all my money out of the stock market what if it all goes down to zero I'm like if you're saying every company goes bankrupt in America we're not going to be worried about our investment accounts we're going to be shooting each other for water you know what I mean so like that is an apocalyptic I Am Legend scenario that I just don't entertain and I have a lot of faith in the American economy that you know capitalism and Innovation will always cause us to prosper over the long term yeah and so if you let you know you've looked at the stock market dips in hindsight it was like oh there's a small bump in the road but when you're in it it feels like you're being jostled in a roller coaster I'm just really risk adverse when it comes to like I I like to maintain and conserve wealth didn't necessarily try to like maximize or build it so I look at like what's the worst possible case scenario that could happen at the same time and how do I prepare myself for that that makes sense so like that's kind of how I plan everything it's like how can I maintain this current lifestyle assuming everything goes to zero and the market crashes and we get an earthquake in LA and my insurance doesn't cover it at the same time I get hit with something like that's what I plan for as stupid as it is because it makes me sleep at night knowing that like no matter what happens it's okay you're gonna be okay yes the only thing that that I see with you say saying what can I do to maintain or preserve this current lifestyle yeah is the fact that whatever your current lifestyle is is constantly changing it's like back when you were in Santa Monica that was the current lifestyle you drove the Tesla that was that's how you lived and then you moved to Las Vegas and then you bought this New Vegas house and so you're maintaining that mortgage payment as well as the ones nothing else I want well then then you bought a Ford GT and then you bought an aquarium and then you bought this and it's like the lifestyle the current lifestyle is it's not I mean obviously it will always be current because that's the only thing that exists but also like it's changing it's always Dynamic I'd say there's nothing else that I want the only thing I would like at some point is uh have a slightly bigger home for a bigger office uh and more backyard space that's it that's the only thing I could think of but comparatively to the average consumer you were actually like the least flashy as far as you know most people with your level of wealth they are really showy and most people who even want to Aspire to where you want to be they're going out every weekend they're spending at the bars they're buying the nicest clothes whereas you've decided I'm I'm gonna actually swim upstream against a lot of that and so the things you buy they're very rare and they're super intentional yeah and you've talked about the Ford GT and like the cars and the watch they make money is up 30 Jack that's impressive better than the stock market should have invested in now that could be a that could be your new business model you can invest in grams purchases yeah I would buy I would love to do that if I could get a good deal right now in an SLS AMG that's the car what's a good deal on something like that uh 150 and below for a low mileage under 18K SLS AMG preferably silver there's a hey if you're out there and you've got that Graham's your guy you got a deal the thing I'm noticing is that you have this peace of mind kind of with regards to finances and this confidence and optimism about you that I really like and I'm like okay that peace of mind seems like it's invaluable like I would love to have that Financial deep-rooted Security that you have now of course Graham is killing it financially I see him like oh it'd be kind of nice to yeah I'm probably can we just say I'm probably the poorest rich person that's ever been on your show I mean as far as like most people that are that you guys are talking to they're like insanely successful and so I hope I'm the poster child for anyone who like works on normal like they work for a company and they have a 401k it's possible for them too without having to like be the biggest creators and entrepreneurs of all time but you're talking like directly tied to the financial success when I'm kind of talking about just like overall fulfillment and like oh yeah like you know I mean confidence with with regards we talk about financial peace a lot and obviously we have a deep Faith background in that um and and Dave talks about this at the end of every show he mentions this as a part a big part of what we do and it's a deep why behind it and you know I just feel more financially peaceful knowing the faith background and reading the Bible and seeing the scripture and how it talks about money there's over 2 300 scriptures that involve wealth and money which is shocking to me what do they say well for example Proverbs 22 7 says the borrower is slave to the lender the rich rule over the poor and so it's one of the reasons that I'm just like yeah the borrower's slave to lender I don't want to be beholden to anyone financially like I don't want to be in change doesn't it depend on the terms necessarily because let's say the lender is lending at one percent then it seems like maybe you know maybe the rules but if if you're let's say you're you know do you have any siblings the half sister okay so she loans you a hundred thousand dollars at one percent does that not change the relationship when she sees you going on vacation it does and buying a car and you know but that's assuming that uh you know but that changes the relationship that's already there because we're going from sibling relationship to now she she has power over like what I spend money on but with the bank you don't have that like sibling relationship to begin with it's always it's very transactional right exactly but even then you said like what if it all goes down and so if it all goes down your best position is to not owe anyone anything in that regard right but I also think that if you put enough money down and you're safe with the property you fix it up let's just saying real estate real estate standpoint you could always sell it you could if it's worth much at that point correct and so we all you know Dave shared his story last time but obviously it was a different time back then but lender called all the notes bank got sold and all of a sudden he couldn't swing the two million dollar uh you know notes that were owed in time sell even selling them off fast enough and so he got burned by that obviously and and since then has looked at what the Bible has to say about money and even when it comes to investing I mean the Bible's chock full um Proverbs 13 11 says wealth gained hastily will dwindle but whoever gathers little by little will increase it and I'm like the Bible was coming after the crypto bros before it even existed I mean you talk about wealth gained hastily will dwindle money that comes in really fast will leave just as fast money that you slowly build up over time ends up staying with you for a longer period of time so there's just such wisdom in that regardless of if you believe in the Bible or you have a faith background it's hard to not see the wisdom in that Common Sense principle and so it's one of the reasons why I own zero crypto I just have no interest in the anxiety of it and gaining it fast and losing it faster I'm okay with my 401k slowly building at the rate of the market over 20 years and you think that that wisdom is due to like the long term just like constantly ingraining those philosophies of like you know you work honest work and you just kind of save up a little by little and you're Frugal with your money that is more valuable than making a bunch of money over yeah well and I think when you work for the money which I mean not that if you research the right single stocks and like you did that is work right but when you like toil like there's like labor involved you show it up and put in the work it feels different than like luck I picked the right stock at the right time right someone who wins the lottery for example there's a recent lottery winners their life implodes generally and they end up losing all that money their family comes after them versus someone who earned that money through a business for example yes over time customers gave them you know certificates of appreciation with presidents faces on it saying thank you for providing the service that's what YouTube does when you put out great content and people watch that content when I just chose the winning lottery ticket I know internally I didn't deserve that and so it changes the way you view that money and view that wealth and oftentimes you're tempted to go spend it all yeah I've rarely seen lottery winners or like I took all the money and I just invested it in an S P 500 Index Fund and I haven't touched it instead it's this changes everything the greed sets in yeah it doesn't and we've seen that in the crypto world there's so much greed in that world and I'm not saying everyone who does crypto is evil or anything like that but we've seen a lot of scammers and frauds and grifters enter that space and it's it's it can be a get rich quick kind of mentality where they're going if I just get in the right meme coin well three weeks from now or a year from now that could turn into this much and so that is just too much anxiety and too much responsibility for me to handle versus going I'm just going to earn my pay every day over time and I plan on working until I can't work anymore because I think we were created to work we were created to contribute and that's a you know with the anti-work movement that's a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow now what I didn't say was work for a toxic company for 30 years doing something you hate that's what they hear in their mind when we say working is good you know like I want you to work in such a way that you can do the things you want to do and find that balance and you guys have done that you're in the content creator space you own your schedules and time more than most people do and so you're doing something you love hopefully I mean Jack seems like he's having a right time right jack yeah I absolutely love it so we're here look at us here I'm doing something I love it's incredible that I get to just show up and do this and help people every day and spread the word and so yeah I mean that all of these discussions it get it can get esoteric and philosophical and all these things but I've just found my way didn't work culture's way didn't work and so I went in a whole other direction and followed someone else's proven plan that was based on biblical principles and it worked and so that's there's no argument it's just like that it's my story and I think it works for anyone who wants a piece of that it is available to them I agree I think you should review some of Jack spending well I don't I don't know like the spending per se well how do you know what you spend if you're not doing a budget because okay because I was born with the I have I I don't like expensive things I don't like expensive taste I love I just naturally find the cheapest things just fun are you more of an experienced person because that could come down yeah like stuff thousand percent you'll go on expensive vacation but you're unwilling to spend that same amount on some nice clothes for example that is exactly the case got it it's funny Jack brought this up the other day and it's true he is more frugal than I am right now wow well why is that well I mean if we're talking about like actual dollar to dollar ratios yes I am more frugal than Grand but that's also because he has like 100 times more wealth than I do the scales are different exactly but um yeah I would say like because you know we booked an Airbnb here and gosh it took me convincing to get Jack this Airbnb it was a lot of money man dude I told he asked me for Airbnb recommendations I said I don't do it I don't fall for those fees I'm not I can't stumb make the fees but here's the thing like how much was it two grand or something no oh gosh now it's 12.50 you guys should just stay to my house I could have saved you a lot of money oh seriously we could stay at your house absolutely you tell us this now 625 and for me 625 is a lot of money right and for Graham 625 yeah you know it's uh I mean if your dog if you should have said you should have told us now if you will have duties you'll have to wipe my dog's butts I don't he'll do that all right fair point I do that for free wow yeah that's amazing why Bailey's butt hey next time next time you guys are in town you can stay in our guest room it's it's rare by the way for people to wipe their dog's butt I have a French Bulldog and so that she has an inverted tail it's a whole situation as you guys get more successful at some point I'm okay like enjoying something you know I want a nicer Hotel I'm not staying in a Motel 6 from on the road I I think it could be like a financial thing as well as maybe an age thing like I don't really have back issues right now so for me it doesn't really matter young again comfiest bed or like grammar out here the old guy is going on I didn't even know what I did and I tweaked my back like here's a good example I wanted to spend the extra thirty dollars to pick our seats at the front of the plane no we could save the 30 and sit anywhere that's true it just doesn't matter the back of the plane is fine but uh you know I I honest I don't do plane upgrades most upgrades I I find are a scam I'm not worth the price 30 bucks it really choose a seat versus now if you're gonna have a middle seat front no like back of the plane because we were like three rows from the back or you could pick the front of the plane not first class right now like what airline are you guys are friends he likes early boarding and and I think that's weird because I don't want to just sit in the plane for as long as I would way rather sit in the uh in the actual airport than go to the plane because then you're standing and waiting well he gets and single you know he's got to you can't sit still too long exactly oh I like to sit down because you need to get work done I don't know point is I think I I can't explain it but it really just doesn't mean anything for me to to look at price tag of a jacket and think I like this jacket more because I see the price tag is bigger I'm sure you guys feel similarly but it just it the brands any of that stuff I really couldn't care less that makes sense you know I think that's very self-aware and I've got a smart spender framework that I cover in Financial Peace University and it's real simple and we cover you know how how to be a wise spender how to be a smart spender the S is for self-awareness will this add value to my life you're already saying no you're cutting it off right there this is not going to add a lot of utility to my life it's not worth the purchase I appreciate you calling it self-awareness and I would love to credit it to that but I genuinely just think some people are born that way and I think I was born that way like this jacket right here I am 10 out of 10 happy to wear I'm jealous some guy sent it to me wow do you want one we'll send you one I thought you have custom merch actually this would be a perfect plug for a website down below in the description we bought iced coffee hour dot Club we're working on getting iced coffee hour.com working yeah so right now you can go to iced coffee hour.club in the description we have merch now available but because I'm so Frugal and I don't want you guys to ship it to me because that costs money so next time you see me it's our gift but it's true and that's what honestly I know you said you're not a big budgeter but budgeting has freed me to spend with intentionality and so I don't ever see it as restrictive of like well why do I need to track it like I'm going to spend less than I make I'm going to have money left over it's fine I'm investing and you guys again you're like the one percent yes I find that when I budget for the vacation and I spend that money on the vacation or the car or the clothing I feel good about it because I did it with intentionality instead of regret remorse or impulse and so I wonder if that might be the ticket for you I know it's counterintuitive I just I agree I think the intention is nice and everything but I also think like if you look at it from uh actually like on a sheet of paper like the value of my time if I'm gonna go and like budget everything and like be very like proactive about it and intentional like you mentioned I just don't think that it would really change anything for me like if you assigned a reasonable budget for someone I'm far beneath that so I for me spending the extra time on something like that wouldn't really matter and I would argue the same for Graham yeah what's your views on budgeting these days I don't anymore uh because my default is always just don't spend money it's always the default um so when I do it's like like your bank transaction list is very light I imagine no it wouldn't be necessarily light but the goal is just always don't spend unless I have to I would say the biggest Splurge at this point is probably food um that would be it that's a luxury that's worth it to you yeah yeah but it's usually at the end of the day like I'll set goals for myself I'll say I'll be able to get sushi like doordash sushi which is seventy dollars for like Macy hurts my heart seventy dollars both of us so 35 each delivered for sushi at home if I get my whole video planned and felt and I'll make that goal you dangle it yeah I dangle it and then once I do that you're driven I'm like okay now I deserve that so but I don't just if I don't finish it I don't deserve it that's interesting Hospital rewards I think which you're you're doing it right and I'm I'm the same way like I don't feel like I should get something until I've kind of earned it so I've switched I deserve it or three words that have caused a lot of people to become broke obviously not in this context but this term like I deserve it I work so hard I'm just gonna doordash because I worked a long day at work I'm gonna spend 70 bucks but I've switched I deserve it to I've earned it and it feels different in that way because deserve comes up from a place of entitlement but I think earning it is different so when we were paying off our house I said I'm driving an 09 Civic the Bumper's hanging off this thing Dave's making fun of me I paid six grand for it from an old team member here and I said I'm not upgrading that car until we pay off the mortgage and it was so freeing to do that because I felt like I had earned it so we paid off the mortgage I saved up I paid cash for the Tesla and so you made the video was it you had a Tesla for how many how much a month 78 so I'm still planning on doing the video how I got a Tesla for zero dollars a month that's that's that's funny and that's the kind of counter cultural stuff where it's just like it's weird in today's world to not have a car payment it's weird to not use a credit card and 30 years ago it was totally weird to use debt for everything we do and do buy now pay later on a freaking pizza but now we just live in this culture where it becomes normal it's marketed to us and so we just start going well now you're the weird one for not doing that you know yeah but I think there's such value in switching those words from I deserved it to I've earned it and doing it with cash because then there's no there's no rear view mirror going I gotta pay for that thing I did four months ago it's so freeing to just be done with that transaction in that moment I actually completely agree I've virtually removed the word deserve from my vocabulary at this point and I've switched it to earn because I think not only like obviously there are certain things in life that are deserved like people deserve certain like obviously things but I think the just the mentality alone kind of similar to what you were preaching earlier where like it's more so about Shifting the underlying psychology the than the actual like uh then the net change you know what I mean you know what's funny similarly Dave Dave's line anytime someone calls into the shows better than I deserve but you guys know what that's about it okay so this is interesting a lot of people don't understand the context behind it because it's not always explained when he says better than I deserve it is a statement of Grace like he's actually referring to his faith not like better than I deserve because I'm a multi-millionaire he's saying like like biblically speaking like I deserved yes better than I deserve he's saying biblically speaking he deserved hell he deserved the worst because of his sin nature and instead he has the grace of Jesus right and so that's what he's referring to when he says that and it's an interesting point when it comes to money because normally we don't weave that part into it but like when we talk about doing a budget we put giving first we say 10 giving at the top of your budget if you go to a local church your local church is a great spot for that but it changed the way I handle money personally because I realize like oh if I'm a steward of what I what I've been given right we'd all say like I'm so blessed right like you you've said that like I'm just really blessed man to me what that means is I didn't deserve this I now have this pile of money that you know God has given me to manage I want to be a good manager of it and that changes the way I make decisions I'm like should I spend frivolously over here or should I invest wisely and there's the parable of the talents in the Bible where the guy went hey I'm going to give you some I'm going to give you some and he rewarded the one who turned it into more money versus the one who just you know buried it in the dirt in the tin can in the backyard so there's so many interesting principles biblically speaking that have changed the way that I just view Money personally coming from my background but it's really interesting even to study it from a financial perspective to go like if Graham is a steward of what he's been given right this amazing net worth this real estate portfolio this platform that you've been given it just changes the way you view it and I think it makes you less selfish because you start thinking about things that are deeper yeah it's not all about views and clicks it's about influence and impact and Legacy and generational change and so when people do other debt-free scream on the show they say I've changed my family tree like I had a generational curse from my parents and their parents and there was abuse and there was trauma there was addiction and there was debt and I'm the first one in my family who's going to turn that all around and that brings tears to my eyes every time we get to do those screams because it reminds me of the real reason because we love talking about money we're all a bunch of nerds talking about money but when you have that level of depth behind it of kind of this eternal mindset it just changes the way I I make decisions personally now when I see like I'm a steward of this versus like this is George's money and he deserves it so he's going to do what he wants with it no one tells George what to do it just makes me more open-handed with money and that's part of the financial piece that I think you feel when you walk into this place and see all of us I'm just curious you mentioned sinning nature what does that mean well I mean the we talk about you know the fall of Man like biblically speaking Adam and Eve they sinned that's called the fall of Man and so you know we say that God sent Jesus to Earth to save us from our sins and it was a personal thing it was for Jack it was for Graham and so that's what we say when we say sinful nature and it's partially why I always I'm like I'm not going to be the guy who wins because I have a sinful nature that's selfish that wants what's best for George that wants everybody have a sinful nature everyone every human regardless of your faith background or where you come from like we're all Sinners right that's why we get frustrated seeing the heartbreaking news of all that's broken in the world and we're frustrated by it and while there's a lot of good things and good news out there it's hard to ignore all of the bad and so it it changed the way I viewed it when I'm like we're all Sinners but we have a god with Grace who sent his son to come die for us so that we could have eternal salvation and so I don't see it as like a I avoided hell like that's great and I know like I can't take my wealth with me and so I view it differently like what am I doing this all for let's say I have a hundred million dollars when I die what's it all for well Proverbs says a good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children great that gives me an awesome goal the Bible also says take care of the poor and the widows and the orphans so one a goal for my wife and I is to pay for someone's adoption or pay for them to get an IVF treatment so that they can adopt and so there's a lot it just changes your mindset and your goals when it comes to money when you view it through the lens of generosity and Legacy and faith and baby step seven which we didn't cover which is build wealth and give and so that give part is important because you guys have heard Dave say live like no one else so later you can live and give like no one else and he has amazing stories of outrageous generosity and spontaneous generosity and it's the stuff on Tick Tock that makes us cry right when we watch these videos of someone giving a stranger or a waitress a thousand dollars and they're in tears there's something just beautiful about giving back it's the reason Mr Beast is so successful we're all inspired by the way he has taken generosity and created amazing content out of it and so I think it's just important for anyone watching to have a deeper why like making money is great being wise with money is awesome but without the why behind it you just get to a point where you hit a wall and you're like what is this all for me there's got to be more than just like the next spread the next thing the next stock and so that's partially why it's given me such peace is I'm not messing with all that stuff I'm just going what's right for my family what can I do for my community what can I do to leave an impact and leave a legacy um because on my on my gravestone it's not going to be like George Campbell net worth 24 4 million dollars you know like yeah mine though that Graham for sure is going to have that like I want it to be about more than that and so that's just changed the way I handle money and it's maybe it's freed me from going like well I really need to get to this net worth it's instead it's like hey what's our goal for the next one year when it comes to generosity and spending because there's only three things you can do with money give it save it and spend it that's it I mean on the simplest terms and so me and my wife we just set goals in all those areas how do we want to give this year what are the spending goals we have this year that might be vacations and upgrading the car or whatever and they're saving how do we want to invest for the future and that has freed me to just not get so in my head about what could be and what's the next thing and what is this person doing instead you just run your own race and there's such beauty to not caring about what other people think and shutting down the comparison mode to where you go like what's that guy doing and how's that Creator doing it has just freed me emotionally because I'm a high anxiety person naturally so my goal is just to reduce all of the anxiety I can in my life and part of that is living with no debt part of that is giving generously because I find that it's hard to have a lot of anxiety when you are giving and so those are all components that create this weird puzzle that is Ramsey Solutions what would you say are some of the biggest contributors to that philosophy that you've adopted and grew over time the biggest contributors to that philosophy obviously it takes someone speaking into your life and taking new information I mean so many people have been inspired by Graham and what he's done I was super inspired by Dave Ramsey of course as one of the goats in this space of not only just giving us financial information but also giving us hope and motivation like we underestimate how entertaining Dave is and how motivating he is and how hopeful he is what's your recommendation for the best bank uh as far as online high-yield savings accounts I found Ally and Marcus to have the best interface customer service I haven't been marketed a lot of debt products from them and so I have no affiliation with them but I just found them to be the ones that I'm comfortable recommending to people it's interesting allies the number one Auto lender wow yeah interesting they have the the most auto loans out there wild yeah yeah but they also have such a great interface and uh high-yield savings account well I heard this Jack you were going to take out Caleb was telling you to take out a car loan even though you don't need to in order to increase your credit score so that you have better access to debt yeah right I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do the the auto loan thing just because it's just another headache at this point yeah and my credit score is already fine it's like 760. oh you're fine um he's all right but the kid's all right that that's it but it is a funny like you have to admit it's kind of an insane game that it is yeah like especially if you already have like such a long track record of like making credit card payments and like I have a mortgage and everything that it would be weird just like oh take out even more debt even when it you don't really need to play the game I feel like of course yeah but see I realize like the game is kind of like a rat in the Maze and you get to the cheese which is the 850 credit score and you realize I'm a rat in a mace like I'm still not truly free you're beholden to this system but like like this is such a one percent example but if you want to get an exotic car loan they want you to have Grim uh that is about five minutes left here today and this is what you want the Exotic Car Loan we have five minutes people are curious if they want to get a loan to buy a Ferrari or Lamborghini let's say you have a 500 000 a year income it's going to be very difficult to get a loan on that because they want to see you have experience handling other types of exotic car loans so they want you to get like a Nissan GTR or like a sub hundred thousand dollar car loan to be able to show that you're responsible one hundred thousand here's what you're saying you're like this is stupid is what I'm hearing at the end of the day like it's insane if you make 500 000 you're saying if at one point you want that car you have to like get your foot in the door to get a loan like that to work your way up it's I think it's stupid but I also think if that's your goal at some point is to be able to leverage your money and do that then you have to that's the thing is there's just such a it's a it's a different goal thing like Dave Ramsey's not like how can I leverage debt to get the next car he's like like if you want to buy that Lamborghini like the shortest path is Dave's way which is I have cash I purchase car end of discussion and so it's just an easier way to live it's a more free way to live Dave has very nice cars and toys and he's got his hobbies that he really enjoys and I just found like that's the path that's best for me and I I think it works for everyone it may not be the path people choose but it's such a great common denominator to go like no matter where you came from your background how smart you are what degree you have being debt free and having money in the bank always works investing for the future with and things with a great track record that aren't as volatile like index funds and mutual funds and real estate you're going to be okay regardless of if you had an inheritance or if your family if you got the right degree and so that's just freeing to me because it goes like anyone can do it and if I can do it anyone for sure can do it because I'm not special like I don't I'm not as smart as you guys I'm not Savant you are yeah I would completely disappoint I appreciate that yeah but it's it's a fun discussion and I know like we we're all friends and so it's fun to have these discussions knowing like none of us are here to like I'm Gonna Change Graham's mind and he's going to become debt Freedom it's fine you're going to be okay I'm talking to everyone else out there who thinks they're the next gram who's going to get themselves into a really big pickle because they thought debt was going to be their friend and it turns out it screwed them over we only have like a minute left but do you think it would be more responsible for us to be anti-debt I don't think it's a responsibility issue I think you're both responsible upstanding gentleman and you'll have a you'll have a great life and a great retirement like I'm truly not worried about you guys right but impact do I think you have a Freer life do I think you'll have a more peaceful life yes and like Dave mentioned I've never met people who paid off all their debt and they're like man I really miss having those payments like I could have had if I had leveraged it I could have had this much there is such freedom and just being content and being okay with where you're at and not needing more and so I find that it's not a responsibility issue it's just a freedom issue final question what's your biggest insecurity oh my gosh biggest insecurity uh I mean obviously you're like my looks like that's an obvious thing when you're on camera every day your console against all right is there hair out of place like you know I'm very pale get a haircut every other week we spoke about right we did every two weeks I get my hair cut uh so I mean obviously like looks are as far as insecurities you know I've never been the smartest in the room or the most well spoken and so there's always insecurities when you're around amazing communicators like we have here at Ramsey so I always kind of feel like the the dumbest guy in the room so what I do to overcome that is I just prepare more than them I Google more than them I do more research I have to work harder at it but I'm not a super insecure person I'm definitely an overthinker but uh in security I wouldn't say is is my uh token do you have any insecurities uh maybe now I do I was like I don't think I'm very insecure and then you're like I'm not the best you know or the the most well spoken but again like well he's better more better more overcoming security I think self-awareness helps overcome that self-awareness will help you overcome insecurity self-what self-awareness just having the self-awareness to go like I'm not the smartest guy so what can I do about it yeah I'm gonna go research and get prepared and so that's freed me in a lot of ways but honestly I I mean I had more confidence than I did 10 years ago you know and I think growth maturity marriage will do that that's a fun fact I mean marriage brings out all the flaws in a person and helps make you better and so there for insecurities you can ask my wife she'll she'll be way more honest she'll list them off come on in Whitney no she she was not standing outside the door thank you I think we're are we done we're good on time we're good cool cool thank you George this was absolutely incredible shout out out to everybody in the crew over here thank you all very much guys thank you guys for coming by it's I I truly like it is such an honor to be on the ice coffee hour and to be hanging out with you guys you're doing incredible work helping so many people educating people and helping them avoid some of the awful traps that are out there it is an honor to have you on really appreciate it hey cheers cheers to free iced coffee from Ramsay here we go someone thanks guys for watching